WEBVTT 1 00:00:40.159 --> 00:00:45.280 Hello, and welcome to Open Mind UFO Radio. I am your host, 2 00:00:45.320 --> 00:00:51.960 Alejandro Rojas, and we have uh here with me, mister Martin goofball Willis. 3 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:56.079 I know I've called you that before, but you're being uh extreme goofy 4 00:00:56.640 --> 00:00:59.759 this morning, a little bit extra today. Yeah, I guess I deserve 5 00:00:59.799 --> 00:01:03.799 that or this afternoon or this evening for you out in the East coast. 6 00:01:03.319 --> 00:01:10.280 That's right, I deserve that again. So we're recording early because tomorrow is 7 00:01:10.319 --> 00:01:12.280 going to be a busy day. So it's actually Sunday. So happy Father's 8 00:01:12.359 --> 00:01:17.719 Day. Way, well, thank you. I enjoying it to your father. 9 00:01:18.480 --> 00:01:23.760 Yes, And how's your day going. It's good. I'm just puttering 10 00:01:23.799 --> 00:01:29.159 around and you know, it's it's a good day here and mein good good. 11 00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:33.359 Well, let's do our introduction to this is Open Mind UFO Radio, 12 00:01:33.400 --> 00:01:38.040 where we cover credible UFO news and information. We do it from a journalistic 13 00:01:38.200 --> 00:01:42.040 kind of standpoint, looking at substantiated information and calling out, you know, 14 00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:46.400 letting you know if it's speculation, which is different from a lot of the 15 00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:49.480 UFO field because a lot of it is based on speculation. And today's really 16 00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:57.159 or this era and time is interesting to see how everybody deals with all of 17 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:04.480 this interesting information that's coming forward lately. So at the beginning of the show, 18 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:08.280 we'll review the news here with Martin, and then the second and third 19 00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:15.400 parts of segments of the show are our interviews and who are we interviewing. 20 00:02:15.199 --> 00:02:19.639 Well, this is a special show. We have Nick Pope, who used 21 00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:23.879 to work for the Ministry of Defense investigating UFOs, so a very similar job 22 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:30.199 really to Elesondo's, was a little bit different in that they were public facing, 23 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:35.680 so he had to deal with the public, whereas the Advanced Aerospace Threat 24 00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:40.039 Identification Program a TIP was more hidden and secretive where they didn't have to deal 25 00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:45.159 with the public. So Loue Alezando, the former head of that organization, 26 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:49.919 is now having to deal with the public and no doubt has his hands full 27 00:02:50.520 --> 00:02:55.599 with that. But we'll be talking to Nick Pope about his experience, similarities 28 00:02:55.639 --> 00:03:05.639 between the criticisms that he's received and Lou has received, and a particular interest 29 00:03:05.800 --> 00:03:15.240 is Nick's insight into how press offices work with the in the defense arena, 30 00:03:15.479 --> 00:03:20.199 because, for instance, he's used the term spinning dirty tricks, essentially saying 31 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:23.360 you know that the way that you dealt with the press is to try to 32 00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:29.719 kind of throw them off the scent, and he sees similar things happening with 33 00:03:29.840 --> 00:03:35.159 the way that especially the Defense Department is dealing with all of this right now. 34 00:03:35.240 --> 00:03:38.680 So we'll get into those details with our interview with Nick. Of course, 35 00:03:38.759 --> 00:03:44.039 every time I talk to him, it's extremely insightful and educational, and 36 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:49.319 so I thoroughly enjoyed this interview. So yeah, we'll be talking about that 37 00:03:49.400 --> 00:03:53.800 momentarily. Yeah, it's great. You know Nick. The thing about Nick 38 00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:58.439 is he only he only interviews with a few people, and you're one of 39 00:03:58.439 --> 00:04:02.759 those people that he don't interviews with. He's very fussy, so he is. 40 00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:06.319 Yeah, it is hard because he's mostly he gets a lot of attention, 41 00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:12.439 mostly pays attention to the mainstream media. But fortunately I have lots of 42 00:04:12.439 --> 00:04:15.519 friends in the mainstream media and he's one of them. We've always kind of 43 00:04:15.879 --> 00:04:21.920 seen eye to eye or at least been able to communicate well with one another. 44 00:04:25.480 --> 00:04:28.720 So very exciting stuff, very exciting. Great, So we'll get into 45 00:04:28.759 --> 00:04:31.920 that in a minute. But there's been a lot of exciting news this week. 46 00:04:32.160 --> 00:04:35.680 So would you like to start off the news, mister Willis, Well, 47 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:40.360 sure, you know, when something happens, I'm sure it happens to 48 00:04:40.399 --> 00:04:44.959 you as well. I get a flood of email, and I'm sure you 49 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:48.439 did too. In this one this morning. I woke up starting last night. 50 00:04:48.519 --> 00:04:56.519 Actually, and about the exclusive, Trump says he doesn't particularly believe in 51 00:04:56.720 --> 00:05:02.399 unidentified flying objects. And this right here at ABC News, and so that's 52 00:05:02.439 --> 00:05:06.360 the title of it. Actually, and President Donald Trump said he doesn't particularly 53 00:05:06.399 --> 00:05:14.920 believe in unidentified flying objects UFOs, despite a rise in reports of unidentified aircraft 54 00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:18.879 by US Navy pilots. I think that's interesting. They actually added that to 55 00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:24.959 the part of the news. In an exclusive interview with ABC News chief anchor 56 00:05:25.079 --> 00:05:30.399 George Stephanopoulos this week, the president was asked what he made of the increased 57 00:05:30.439 --> 00:05:34.639 reports. Well, I don't know if I should try to do a Trump 58 00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:40.920 impersonation, I'll probably get hate mail. I'll just wing it, so he 59 00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:44.040 goes. This is a direct quote that he says. I think it's probably 60 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:47.279 I want them to think whatever they think. They do. They say they 61 00:05:47.399 --> 00:05:53.199 see I've read, I've heard, and I did have one brief meeting on 62 00:05:53.240 --> 00:05:56.279 it. Now. I think that's the interesting line right there. But people 63 00:05:56.360 --> 00:06:00.959 are saying they're seeing UFOs. Do I believe it not particular, he said, 64 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:05.279 and asked if he thought he would know if there was a case of 65 00:06:05.360 --> 00:06:10.959 extraterrestrial life. The President replied, well, I think my great pilots would 66 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:15.519 know. Great pilots would know. They see things a little bit different from 67 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:18.879 the past. So we're going to see, we're watching and you'll be the 68 00:06:18.920 --> 00:06:24.079 first to know. So I think that's uh, I think that's interesting. 69 00:06:24.279 --> 00:06:28.040 In other words, you know, he might tweet this out if if you 70 00:06:28.120 --> 00:06:30.600 find something out, something that would that would be something, wouldn't it? 71 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:34.000 Well, who knows? I mean what's interesting, like you said, is 72 00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:39.639 that he did receive a very brief meeting on it. So who told him 73 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:43.800 what? That'll be interesting to know. We do know from Leapey, who 74 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:49.000 was an executive producer on Unidentified who I'm actually doing a special little interview with 75 00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:51.639 tomorrow. That's one of the things I'm going to be busy with. So 76 00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:57.079 I'll post that tomorrow. But he has some things that he wants to share, 77 00:06:57.160 --> 00:07:00.519 so that'll be a little bonus kind of piece for you all coming tomorrow. 78 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:04.480 You can expect tomorrow being Monday, so this airs the same day, 79 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:10.000 so sometime today, I guess for most of you, but I don't know 80 00:07:10.040 --> 00:07:13.519 if that will be reflected in the show as although Lopee has told us that 81 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:20.360 there To the Star's influence on getting information to the Congress is featured on the 82 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:26.079 show. So we'll talk a little bit about that with Lapey. But it's 83 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:30.279 interesting he says he does not believe, but he does say, you know, 84 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:35.120 I think that our pilots would know. And of course we know from 85 00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:43.279 David Fraber thus far and then the female pilot who was his wingman or wing 86 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:46.439 person in his incident in two thousand and four. Of these were, you 87 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:51.920 know, Navy pilots and they believe that they encountered something that was beyond our 88 00:07:51.959 --> 00:07:59.279 technology. We also have these small clips from Lieutenant Grays and a Coin, 89 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:05.639 a couple of Navy jet fighter pilots who had encounters in twenty fifteen, and 90 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:11.519 that will also be in the fourth episode of Unidentified more about them. But 91 00:08:11.959 --> 00:08:16.839 the other videos that The New York Times released, or that To the Stars 92 00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:20.439 release, they released three total, one from the Nimic's incident, the other 93 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:28.120 two from the twenty twenty fifteen incident off the coast of Florida with Graves and 94 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:31.519 a Coin. Two of the pilots involved with some of those encounters, but 95 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:37.399 they also believe that they encountered something unusual. So the pilots, at least 96 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:41.720 some of them, do believe that, you know, there's something to the 97 00:08:41.799 --> 00:08:45.759 UFO phenomena. And of course the Navy seems too as well, because they 98 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:50.360 have some new guidelines they put together for tracking UFOs. So the Navy's certainly 99 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:56.600 taking it very seriously. And maybe because his meeting was very brief. We 100 00:08:56.639 --> 00:09:00.720 don't know when this meeting happened or the nature of it, but perhaps if 101 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:05.639 he got updated, he would think differently. Maybe he's watching the show or 102 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:09.480 speaking of news items, another item that you'll see in the headlines on op 103 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:16.480 TV is that lou Elizondo wrote an opinion piece this week just the other day 104 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:22.480 for President Trump's favorite news outlet, which is Fox News. So Fox News 105 00:09:22.519 --> 00:09:28.960 actually posted something from Elizondo. Not that there is a lot of new information 106 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:31.559 in this opinion piece, but he's essentially sharing, Hey, I worked for 107 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:37.360 the Pentagon. It was my job to look and investigate these military cases. 108 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:43.080 Myself and others came to the conclusion that there was more to this phenomena than 109 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:46.879 many people believe, and it is worth a closer look. And he left, 110 00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:52.399 you know, because he wanted the government to pay more attention to this 111 00:09:52.799 --> 00:09:56.840 phenomena and his leaving and then kind of you know, all of the splash 112 00:09:56.919 --> 00:10:01.240 that's been made in the media seems to have prompted the government to take further 113 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:09.039 action. So his leaving has been successful for those reasons. But yeah, 114 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:13.720 that's interesting, right that Fox News would have of course, they've interviewed Alizondo, 115 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:18.799 Nick Pope, Fravor, the Wing commander. Maybe I wouldn't doubt if 116 00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:22.679 these other pilots will also be interviewed on Fox News. So certainly the president 117 00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:26.320 is seeing some of this stuff. I would imagine. Oh, you know, 118 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:31.120 I never even thought of that angle. That may have prompted the briefing. 119 00:10:31.159 --> 00:10:35.320 He may have even asked for a briefing on that. Wow, interesting 120 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:39.159 because I know that is it Tucker Carlson or something like that. He does 121 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:43.600 a lot of the lot of the interviews on UFOs, Nick Pope and everyone 122 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:48.879 else, right exactly, He's had a lot of these guys on multiple times, 123 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:56.200 which is great. You know, I just wanted to talk you talked 124 00:10:56.200 --> 00:11:00.759 just a second ago about unidentified and did you happen to catch the tweet from 125 00:11:00.759 --> 00:11:05.279 Tom DeLong, what if I was briefed by Italian intelligence that a UFO shot 126 00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:09.799 a military helicopter out of the sky and that there are picks to see and 127 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:15.240 this is all for you to see on our next two episodes Unidentified on the 128 00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:18.200 History Channel. Yeah, that was mysterious. I know what you're talking about. 129 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:22.159 Tom DeLong tweeted exactly what you said, which, of course is shocking. 130 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:26.039 If you said that, I would freak, That's my answer. That 131 00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:28.600 would be crazy. But he said what if I told you? As a 132 00:11:28.679 --> 00:11:33.080 question mark? And then he deleted that tweet? Oh, he deleted it. 133 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:37.320 He did, So why did he post that? Is? Is this 134 00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:41.360 kind of you know, we've I've heard that there's something mind blowing in the 135 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:46.320 last episode, the sixth episode of Unidentified. I have no clue what it 136 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:52.639 is. You know, nobody's alluded to what it might be. But it 137 00:11:52.679 --> 00:11:56.320 is that it? And if it is it, why is Tom DeLong spoiling 138 00:11:56.679 --> 00:12:00.919 that news, you know, getting it out there? Or is he messing 139 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:03.559 with us? Is that, you know, even the case at all? 140 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:07.759 But I don't know what to make of that tweet. Yeah, yeah, 141 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:11.759 the fact that he took it down. He must have gotten some grief from 142 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:16.000 that, you know, from the History Channel. Perhaps you never know, 143 00:12:16.840 --> 00:12:20.120 Yeah, maybe, because I would imagine show there obviously you and I, 144 00:12:20.279 --> 00:12:26.799 for instance, got these interviews with Elizondo, and we know how careful they're 145 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:30.960 being the History Channel with all the information, because of course we had it 146 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:35.960 was quite an effort to even get those interviews. So and I know from 147 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:39.720 trying to arrange different interviews and information and people keep I don't know if this 148 00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:43.200 is happening to you, but it's happened to me over the past few months 149 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:45.519 that people are like, how do I get there a Lozondo? You know, 150 00:12:45.559 --> 00:12:48.399 And I always send them to the History Channel and they're usually bummed because 151 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:52.080 you know, they have to wait in line or or you know, go 152 00:12:52.120 --> 00:12:56.960 through like we do with the process. But yeah, that could be. 153 00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:03.039 I would not imagine that they would want him sharing information about future episodes like 154 00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:07.000 that. So maybe it was them. So is that true or not? 155 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:13.559 I don't know that ought to be. Well, I guess we'll find out. 156 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:18.200 And we don't have to wait long. We're already essentially halfway through the 157 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:22.879 series where they had episode three just the other day, another great episode. 158 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:28.759 I thought and so we've only got three left. Yeah, that's right. 159 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:33.440 Do you think they're gonna now renew or do any more segments or this is 160 00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:37.360 the whole shebang and they're done. No, I think they have a second 161 00:13:37.399 --> 00:13:43.080 season. And I can't remember specifically why I believe this if I was told 162 00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:50.320 this, but I'm pretty sure I did hear through some you know way that 163 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:56.000 they do have a second season queued up. Wow. Well, it's certainly 164 00:13:56.279 --> 00:13:58.840 not like anything else that's ever been on TV before. No, it's not. 165 00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:03.559 It feels weird. I mean, it's weird that we have this show 166 00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:07.080 that's on the History Channel. It has, you know, kind of the 167 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:16.679 music and the trappings of a regular kind of reality show, but you have 168 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:22.679 these officials, these retired officials, these this guy who worked at the Pentagon 169 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:30.519 essentially almost like a whistleblower, giving us information from behind the scenes, and 170 00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:33.919 and that spills out from just the show. Usually it's just you know, 171 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:37.159 contained within the show or the fan base of the show. But no, 172 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:41.720 this is also playing out on Fox News, on CNN, on ABC with 173 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:48.080 George Stephanopoulos. It's you know, it's also a big news thing where we've 174 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:54.519 got this wild you know, information kind of coming forward through the show and 175 00:14:54.559 --> 00:14:58.399 through the news, and it's just it is so strange. It's it's very 176 00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:03.480 surrealistic. It is. It's it's really you said it at the top of 177 00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:09.000 the show. It's interesting times we're in. It just seems almost seems like 178 00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:15.200 a slight snowballing of it, you know, things happening. It is and 179 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:18.960 it's really surreal for me, and I think for listeners, I wonder if 180 00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:22.399 you would agree, and not to pat myself on the back, really, 181 00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:26.559 but if you've been reading my articles and my stories, I think, what's 182 00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:31.120 really strange. And I know that Tyler Rogaway because I've been speaking with him, 183 00:15:31.159 --> 00:15:35.879 who writes with you know, the Drive war Zone, kind of feels 184 00:15:35.919 --> 00:15:39.879 similarly with some of the stuff he's written. Is that we're seeing a lot 185 00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:46.919 of the information from our articles playing out on the screen and it's just really 186 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:50.080 weird. It's kind of a great thing because it shows, you know that 187 00:15:50.679 --> 00:15:54.440 I was accurate in my reporting and like Lou said in my interview, but 188 00:15:56.480 --> 00:15:58.639 you know, not a lot of a lot of people were kind of hung 189 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:03.879 up on different things instead of paying attention to the meat of what is going 190 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:10.000 on, and now we're seeing that, and I think, you know, 191 00:16:10.039 --> 00:16:12.080 my listeners will be like, hey, you know, Alejandro already told me 192 00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:15.639 about this. He already told me about that. This is just like Alejandro's 193 00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:21.279 article, and you got to know what's weird about this also, And I 194 00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:23.879 think that's why I've been hearing from La pay is that, you know, 195 00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:27.879 I wrote my articles completely independent of these guys. I didn't even know the 196 00:16:27.879 --> 00:16:33.600 show existed. So while I'm writing my articles, they're writing their scripts and 197 00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:38.279 or even had shot this stuff already, and you know, they turn out 198 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:41.399 very similar. But that's the way, you know, the facts should play 199 00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:45.240 out. If you're both following a trail of facts. You know, the 200 00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:48.679 facts don't change. You're maybe able to look at them in different ways. 201 00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:53.240 But I think they're laying them out just like an investigative journalist would, and 202 00:16:53.320 --> 00:16:57.480 so the facts are laying out in a similar way. And it's very exciting, 203 00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:03.039 it's very strange, it's fun, and I can't wait to see where 204 00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:06.960 this all goes. Because of course I've only written about bits and pieces of 205 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:11.039 this. I've been able to catch wind of or get interviews about with some 206 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:14.720 of the people in the know, like George Knapp and Lela Kane and of 207 00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:19.440 course George Knapp his writing, He's been revealing a lot of these nuggets all 208 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:25.319 along. And these are people. You know, people have been bashing us, 209 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:30.079 and I'm not even sure why because we're sharing information and they've been grouping 210 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:33.519 together me with Leslie Kane and George Nappen saying things like, oh, we're 211 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:37.640 biased and everything. But you know what, I first of all, I 212 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:41.920 am so honored to be grouped together with these guys, even if it is 213 00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:47.519 to be bashed together with them. But I feel that their writing has been 214 00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:51.839 proven over and over and over and over again to be accurate, one hundred 215 00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:55.680 percent accurate, which isn't surprising to me because I've been following these guys for 216 00:17:55.759 --> 00:17:59.880 years and they've always been accurate. But their work has held up to screw 217 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:04.319 and boy has it been scrutinized, And it's really held up even to my 218 00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:08.920 own scrutiny because I've scrutinized their articles. I mean, it's our job to 219 00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:15.000 make sure you know all of the points that they have said are accurate and 220 00:18:15.079 --> 00:18:21.400 to substantiate them on our own, and they have. I mean, even 221 00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:26.160 though, for instance, Leslie Kane's original article or the article that was a 222 00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:30.680 group effort with Ralph Blumenthal and Helene Cooper on the New York Times in December 223 00:18:30.759 --> 00:18:33.119 twenty seventeen. It was a group effort, of course, but even though 224 00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:41.559 they didn't include the original organization that received the funding as app the Advanced Aerospace 225 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:45.119 Weapons System Application Program, it didn't include any of that or the paranormal background, 226 00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:49.880 it still was accurate as to the perspective and the information they had. 227 00:18:51.319 --> 00:18:56.160 They just know people are picking on one that one little detail, you know, 228 00:18:56.279 --> 00:18:57.680 as if you know, to throw the baby out with the bathwater, 229 00:18:57.799 --> 00:19:03.359 right, Yeah, so, and I think they've done, and they've been 230 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:07.440 proven over and over again. In fact, they've been right when the DoD 231 00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:11.440 Press Office has been wrong, and then that their work has proven to be 232 00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:15.240 right over the press office. So this kind of comes back to one of 233 00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:18.000 the things you said, you know, the New York Times, they don't 234 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:22.359 mess around when they bet their information, you know it. You know that 235 00:19:22.839 --> 00:19:27.759 their information is very solid, and they've been proven to be right over what 236 00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:30.960 the Department of Defense has told us. And we're going to get into that 237 00:19:32.359 --> 00:19:37.680 some of that with Nick coming up here. When I when I first read 238 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:42.519 that article that Keith Klore put out. I sent it to Leslie and just 239 00:19:42.599 --> 00:19:45.640 asked for her two cents and she just sent back. You know, she 240 00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:51.680 usually is very wordy with me when she replies, and this was We stand 241 00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:55.839 by our reporting. That's all you said. And just for the audience to 242 00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:59.880 know this was Keith Gore wrote an article in The Intercept in which Idea, 243 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:06.920 the spokesperson, had told him that Lou had no responsibility towards a tip the 244 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:11.559 program that he says he ran with the Pentagon. Since his article, George 245 00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:19.079 Knapp has released a further unredacted document that Harry Reid had written. It was 246 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:26.559 a letter asking for special Access program status for a tip, and in that 247 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:33.559 list, the names of people mostly were redacted, but George and Napp unredacted 248 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:37.279 help put Off's name and Lou Elizondo's name, so you could see they were 249 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:41.359 listed as people who worked on the program help put Off. Doctor help Putoff 250 00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:47.880 was a contractor. I contacted doctor help put Off and I told Chlora, 251 00:20:47.960 --> 00:20:52.720 this is what you should do if this is what the DoD is telling you. 252 00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:56.279 We have documents that say otherwise, who else would be in the know 253 00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:00.200 The contractors, So asked the contractors, who did you report to? How 254 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:04.319 told me Lou definitely was in a tip and in fact, he just told 255 00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:08.480 John Greenwald, who's been questioning all of this also along with Keith Klore. 256 00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:15.279 He gave John Greenwald a more clear answer, saying, yes, I was 257 00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:22.599 a contractor working for Big Low Aerospace the Bass project and a tip, and 258 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:26.480 yes we were under the leadership of Lou Arizondo. So he was very clear 259 00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:32.759 how put Off about this, and we know, you know from official documents 260 00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:36.000 that help put Off worked for it, so he would know. And he 261 00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:38.759 even went on to say, I'm not surprised that the press office wouldn't have 262 00:21:38.839 --> 00:21:44.279 this information. They have access to very little information. They weren't part of 263 00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:48.000 the program. And that's what we've heard from a lot of different people. 264 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:51.440 And in fact, you know, people have been concerned, well, why 265 00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:55.000 isn't Brian Bender or some of these others, like from political concerned about that. 266 00:21:55.359 --> 00:22:00.000 And he's been criticized as well because he's a mainstream journalist, I guess 267 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.400 writing about this stuff, But he says it's not surprising. He says the 268 00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:06.559 same thing as hell. The Public Affairs Department, first of all, they're 269 00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:08.920 going to say what they're told to say. Not to that I'm saying there's 270 00:22:08.920 --> 00:22:12.680 a conspiracy, but I'm just saying that they're not going to have all the 271 00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:15.640 information. They would have to do a lot of research to be able to 272 00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:19.920 figure out the in and out of this program that we know was kind of 273 00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:26.319 being kept hush hush. So it's not surprising that they wouldn't have all the 274 00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:30.440 information. And that's why we've seen this pattern over and over again. The 275 00:22:30.519 --> 00:22:34.240 DD says no, you know, those those videos were not ours. Then 276 00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:38.079 they later say, Okay, they were ours. You know, we've seen 277 00:22:38.119 --> 00:22:41.200 this over and over again where they've said one thing and then had to change 278 00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:47.400 their story later after they received more information because they didn't have that information to 279 00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:52.759 begin with. I wonder why they're just blatantly saying that, you know, 280 00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:56.599 the press people are just blatantly saying, you know, he had no affiliation. 281 00:22:57.160 --> 00:23:03.279 You know, I mean, but this is why this conspiracy theory breaks 282 00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:06.480 down, where oh no, you know, I keep hearing people even just 283 00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:10.000 now and I won't say who, you know, some guy saying a prominent 284 00:23:10.119 --> 00:23:11.759 UFO figure saying, see, this is all part of the government. The 285 00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:17.160 D to the Stars is part of the DoD. This is a DoD effort. 286 00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:19.720 Well, why are they arguing back and forth about the facts, then 287 00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:23.839 why is the DoD calling into question the facts that to the Stars are putting 288 00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:27.440 forth? That does not show a cooperation in any way. And I've said 289 00:23:27.480 --> 00:23:32.599 this over and over again. I believe that you know, they have been 290 00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:34.640 put on the back foot. They didn't know lou E Alisanda was going to 291 00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:38.599 come out and talk about this. They probably didn't even know this project existed. 292 00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:42.559 Just imagine you're a press guy in the DoD and all of a sudden 293 00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:47.200 you have a flood of media coming to you and saying, what about UFOs, 294 00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:49.039 what's this thing about UFOs? You'd be like, I don't know nothing 295 00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:52.400 about UFOs, what are you talking about? And so then they've got to 296 00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:57.960 try to figure out how to answer all of these questions and figure out what's 297 00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:02.400 going on. So I'm sure it hasn't been easy for them, and I'm 298 00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:07.200 sure they are not appreciative of the position that they've been put in. Well 299 00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:11.079 do they actually go to like a superior and say, you know, what 300 00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:14.680 do I do in this situation? I mean, I just wonder how that's 301 00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:17.759 well you're going to have to listen to my interview with Nick pot So. 302 00:24:17.880 --> 00:24:21.400 Actually we talk a lot about this and he has insight into this, so 303 00:24:22.039 --> 00:24:26.000 we'll be talking more about this with Nick Pope. Well, I didn't we 304 00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:30.160 about out of time. Yeah, we're pretty much out of time. But 305 00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:33.400 we've got a lot of other news stories. Those ones that we've talked about 306 00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:37.440 you can see on the front page of Openminds dot TV. But let's go 307 00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:41.119 ahead and get to our interview with Nick. And thank you Martin Willison podcast 308 00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:45.160 UFO joining us once again with the news. You're very welcome, sir. 309 00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:19.079 I am so happy, especially at this time, to have back on the 310 00:25:19.160 --> 00:25:23.240 show. Nick Pope, Hello, mister Pope. Hi there, good to 311 00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:27.119 be back. Yes, you know, we were just talking a second ago 312 00:25:27.160 --> 00:25:32.559 when we came online about you know, we've talked over the years, and 313 00:25:32.599 --> 00:25:37.160 there's certainly times where there's it, there's not much going on. It feels 314 00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:40.680 almost like we're just talking to each other for the heck of it, as 315 00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:44.440 supposed to talking to an audience. But right now, I mean, all 316 00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:48.720 the eyes are on UFOs. What an interesting time we're finding ourselves in. 317 00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:53.359 Absolutely. I wrote a recent op ed for the New York Post, where 318 00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:57.359 I said, essentially, this subject has now come out of the fringe and 319 00:25:57.519 --> 00:26:03.200 into the mainstream. And as you say, it's interesting to speculate just a 320 00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:08.319 couple of years ago if you'd spoken to people in the UFO community and said 321 00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:12.240 to them, where do you want to be a couple of years from now? 322 00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:19.359 What is your desired in state? Short of the rather cliched my fellow 323 00:26:19.400 --> 00:26:22.440 Americans, people of the world, we're not alone. But assuming you're not 324 00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:26.720 going to get that, where would you like to be? And people would 325 00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:32.359 respond with answers like, well, I'd like to see this subject in the 326 00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:34.640 mainstream media. I'd like to see it in the Times, the Post, 327 00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:41.759 Politico and addressed in a serious manner, without a little, you know, 328 00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:48.440 snide jokes and laughing asides. And that's what I would like. And that's 329 00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:55.279 exactly where we are. And I have the same sentiment. And you know, 330 00:26:55.359 --> 00:26:59.640 I've asked some people this, especially like Leslie Kane. I've asked the 331 00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:03.079 same ques question and her answer was similar to what you had just said, 332 00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:07.319 and I felt the same. What's interesting, though, is how great this 333 00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:14.920 is for you and I the majority of the UFO community. This is when 334 00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:18.119 I've posited, you know, this is a great direction, This is a 335 00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:23.079 direction we should go. I disagree. They want something bigger and grander, 336 00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:27.200 and you can kind of see many of them feel let down that, you 337 00:27:27.240 --> 00:27:32.240 know, the hanger doors were not opened at Area fifty one to reveal, 338 00:27:32.440 --> 00:27:36.559 you know, the alien technology that they've been flying around there with aliens and 339 00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:41.480 stuff. A lot of people aren't satisfied until we get that. Yes, 340 00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:45.240 And the problem, of course, is that that might be undeliverable, not 341 00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:52.960 because it's politically impossible, because it just doesn't exist. The real answer might 342 00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:57.440 be that the government doesn't know what this is. The real answer might be 343 00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:03.240 that all you want to get to get it's pretty much what we have now. 344 00:28:03.319 --> 00:28:08.960 The DoD the US Navy essentially acknowledging yes, there is something here. 345 00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:14.279 We call it UAP. We can get into the terminology later. I'm sure 346 00:28:14.839 --> 00:28:18.359 it's in our airspace. Our radar operators track them, our pilots chase them. 347 00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:22.480 We don't know what it is. It's a defense s we need to 348 00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:26.519 find out. We need to take preventative action. But yeah, no spaceship 349 00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:32.200 in a hangar, because we don't have one. But we do have these 350 00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:37.279 unauthorized incursions. So yeah, I think you're right people in the UFO community. 351 00:28:37.319 --> 00:28:42.240 In one sense, it's like the kid that doesn't quite get what they 352 00:28:42.279 --> 00:28:47.000 want for Christmas. They get a nice present, but because it's not the 353 00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:51.480 really big, shiny thing they wanted, they're disappointed. Well, you should 354 00:28:51.480 --> 00:28:56.079 be grateful for the things that you have and not worry about the things you 355 00:28:56.119 --> 00:28:59.960 don't have. It's funny you say that, because, as you say that, 356 00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:03.200 it feels like some of us that have been in this field who have 357 00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:07.680 kind of seen or wanted this progression, hoped for it, and it certainly 358 00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:11.799 has happened, at least at an increased rate that I certainly could never have 359 00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:18.480 predicted. But it is almost like we're parents to the kids. Hey, 360 00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:23.119 you know this is still good. This is still a good present. Yes, 361 00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:29.599 And I think if you'd have said to most people in the UFO community 362 00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:37.079 prior to December sixteenth, twenty seventeen, what if we delivered this? And 363 00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:41.839 as I say, this is the coverage in The Times, the Post, 364 00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:51.319 and the Politico. This is retired intelligence officials and military personnel involved in both 365 00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:56.720 investigations, policy work, and encounters speaking out on the record in a serious 366 00:29:56.759 --> 00:30:03.480 way. I think people would have taken that. Sure, it's not disclosure 367 00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:06.839 with a big D, it's not the spaceship in a hangar. But I 368 00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:11.720 think if you'd have said to people before December sixteenth, twenty seventeen, will 369 00:30:11.720 --> 00:30:15.559 you take that, they would have said yes, well, you know, 370 00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:18.680 And I asked those a lot of those kind of questions, and people surprisingly 371 00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:22.559 weren't saying yes so much. They said if that happened, I don't even 372 00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:26.359 think I would trust those people. And we are seeing that kind of play 373 00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:30.559 out to me, and I'd love to hear your perspective on this. More 374 00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:33.720 and more so, I'm seeing that this really, what is going on right 375 00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:38.880 now is not so much for the UFO community. They're not, you know, 376 00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:42.279 enjoying the gift that they got there, taking it for granted perhaps, 377 00:30:42.279 --> 00:30:47.240 but more so this is they're looking for something else. But what this gift 378 00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:55.880 is great for is the general public, peaking interests, incredible venues that this 379 00:30:56.039 --> 00:31:02.880 has never really been able to get a platform in before or attention from. 380 00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:07.720 That's what's really I think is most exciting about what we see going on. 381 00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:11.359 Well, I agree, and I think it's a little bit of a slow 382 00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:18.799 Burner this one. And I think it doesn't have the immediate effect that maybe 383 00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:23.960 people in the UFO community, the deep specialists would hope and expect. But 384 00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:32.039 what it does, what all this constant background coverage, It's sort of background 385 00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:37.359 noise that's gone on since The Times broke the story a year and a half 386 00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:45.839 ago. It what it does is it it kind of slowly but surely changes 387 00:31:45.079 --> 00:31:52.599 the debate about this, the background perception that people have. And when I 388 00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:55.799 say people, I don't mean the UFO community now, I mean I mean 389 00:31:55.799 --> 00:32:00.000 there's sort of everybody else who's who's not particularly interested in it, sees something 390 00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:04.319 thing from time to time. But what they have had for the last year 391 00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:10.200 and a half now is a steady stream of articles in these top level publications 392 00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:16.160 that have flipped the narrative one hundred and eighty degrees. So even if they're 393 00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:21.839 not necessarily consciously aware of it and talking about it every day, as the 394 00:32:21.880 --> 00:32:28.359 deep specialists in the UFO community do, their perceptions are slowly but surely being 395 00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:36.680 changed. Managed if you'll excuse a somewhat conspiratorial word. And I think what 396 00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:42.039 this does is it means that we are now in a different world and if 397 00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:47.839 this subject comes up now to a neutral person who's not particularly interested, hadn't 398 00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:52.400 given it much thought, but their response, if they're asked, will be, 399 00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:53.759 oh, yeah, yeah, I read something about that. The government 400 00:32:53.799 --> 00:32:58.440 does that. Yeah, they know about these things in the airspace. Yeah, 401 00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:00.920 then the navy chase them, the radar people track them. Sure, 402 00:33:01.079 --> 00:33:07.720 sure it's real, not particularly necessarily interested in have the in depth knowledge. 403 00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:12.960 But when people when people respond like that, that sort of yeah, I've 404 00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:16.000 heard it, I know about this response, then you know that you have 405 00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:23.039 moved progress. The goalposts have been subtly but majorly moved over a period of 406 00:33:23.240 --> 00:33:29.039 say eighteen months or so. And there is something that you're participating that is 407 00:33:29.079 --> 00:33:32.640 along these lines that I think is pretty extraordinary in that you have The New 408 00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:38.599 York Post doing these videos with John green Street one of their writers, and 409 00:33:38.680 --> 00:33:45.200 you talking about UFOs. I think that's pretty incredible for a mainstream paper. 410 00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:49.119 Of course, the New York Post can be a bit of tabloid dish, 411 00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:52.640 but that they would be doing this is pretty extraordinary. Well, I think 412 00:33:52.640 --> 00:34:00.599 it's important to cover all ends of the political and demographic and social spectrum with 413 00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:07.000 this, So we started off discussing how this had gotten into the Times, 414 00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:10.639 the Post, and Politico, But yeah, to get it into something like 415 00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:15.000 the New York Post, it's a different audience, but it's an equally important 416 00:34:15.320 --> 00:34:20.320 audience. And of course, let's not forget it. It was the host 417 00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:27.000 of the Basement Office, Stephen green Street, who first got that great scoop, 418 00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:34.360 and it was published on May twenty second, where the DoD spokesperson confirmed, 419 00:34:34.519 --> 00:34:37.199 I think for the first time that yes, a tip And this next 420 00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:45.119 bit is the direct quote, did pursue research and investigation into unidentified aerial phenomena. 421 00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:49.559 Now, right up until that point, I think people forget. But 422 00:34:49.719 --> 00:34:54.039 right up until that point, the skeptics were saying in response to this, 423 00:34:54.440 --> 00:35:00.400 ah, yes, but this is just probably next generation aircraft, missiles and 424 00:35:00.519 --> 00:35:06.559 drones. And indeed, if you look at the letter that the DIA sent 425 00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:10.320 to Congress about this, that's exactly how they tried to spin it. But 426 00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:15.480 UAP, there is no getting away from the fact that unidentified aerial phenomena UAP 427 00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:23.920 is the recognized phrase that government, the military, and the intelligence community uses 428 00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:29.079 for what the media and the public term UFOs. And I know because I 429 00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:31.719 was doing this at the Ministry of Defense back in the nineties, and one 430 00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:37.960 can see the UK influence on this, which is great. So yeah, 431 00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:40.800 what the New York Post are doing is really good. They have I think 432 00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:45.159 this series is going to be five or six episodes, and each of them 433 00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:51.320 about twenty five minutes. The host, Stephen green Street and myself just sitting 434 00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:58.159 down discussing not just the current story about the Pentagon's A tip program and the 435 00:35:58.280 --> 00:36:05.599 Navy encounters, but the history of this subject. How did we get to 436 00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:07.880 where we are today? Story? And I think that's great and a lot 437 00:36:07.880 --> 00:36:12.199 of people we forget, but a lot of people are coming to this pretty 438 00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:16.280 much for the first time. And I look down at the comments when these 439 00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:22.800 things get posted on YouTube, and the overwhelming response that you get from people 440 00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:28.800 is finally somebody is taking this seriously. Thanks people. M hm. How 441 00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:32.119 else has it been received? Have you gotten responses from people you would not 442 00:36:32.199 --> 00:36:37.920 have expected, especially this being in New York? Yes, I think so. 443 00:36:38.199 --> 00:36:44.280 I think I've received a lot of emails about this. As I say, 444 00:36:44.320 --> 00:36:47.239 when they're put up on YouTube. I think the first episode has over 445 00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:52.280 two hundred thousand hits now, and it's probably on other platforms too, So 446 00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:58.480 that only tells part of the story. I think when they did this they 447 00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:01.119 weren't quite sure how it was going to be received. But I think everyone 448 00:37:01.239 --> 00:37:06.159 is phenomenally pleased. And I have to say that Stephen green Street has done 449 00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:09.440 a fantastic job of putting this all together. When I flew to New York 450 00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:17.440 to meet him and get together with him, he came armed with absolutely reams 451 00:37:17.519 --> 00:37:22.199 and reams of paper on all this. He had done a deep dive into 452 00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:29.440 the history of this subject. He dug up documents and clips that I say, 453 00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:35.960 even deep specialists in this subject probably couldn't necessarily put their hands on. 454 00:37:36.039 --> 00:37:40.599 And it's getting this subject to a different and new audience, and that's what 455 00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:45.880 it's all about. I think in all of this we should forget that. 456 00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:50.199 We should not forget that there are two important things. The message is, 457 00:37:50.239 --> 00:37:53.840 of course hugely important, but so's the audience. There's no point just preaching 458 00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:58.519 to the choir with all of this. It's all about getting it to a 459 00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:05.320 new and different audience, changing the debate, changing people's perception of this, 460 00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:09.559 not just in the UFO community, but right across society. Mm hm, 461 00:38:12.039 --> 00:38:15.000 I agree one hundred percent, and that's what's exciting. I think Stephen is 462 00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:20.760 an exciting person. You know, he's a lot of fun to see him 463 00:38:20.840 --> 00:38:27.000 react to what your discussions. And he's also obviously very well versed, and 464 00:38:27.079 --> 00:38:30.920 like you said, started right off the bat with this major revelationist comment from 465 00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:35.679 the DoD. So we'll get it more into it. So let's I guess, 466 00:38:35.719 --> 00:38:38.280 get more wank you get into the weeds here, but I guess we'll 467 00:38:38.280 --> 00:38:43.159 go kind of backwards or just a bit ago. You talked about how the 468 00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:49.039 US took the UK's lead. So you think that they noticed you all were 469 00:38:49.159 --> 00:38:54.119 using this term UAP back in the nineties and adopted that. Yes, now, 470 00:38:54.280 --> 00:38:59.960 I can't claim credit for inventing the phrase UAP. It had been around 471 00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:02.800 for a while, but there's no getting away from the fact that in the 472 00:39:02.840 --> 00:39:10.320 early nineties we at the Ministry of Defense in the UK sat down and deliberately 473 00:39:10.360 --> 00:39:15.199 strategized this and we said, look, not for the media in the public, 474 00:39:15.239 --> 00:39:22.159 but internally for the defense community, for the intelligence community audience. We 475 00:39:22.239 --> 00:39:25.639 wanted to reframe the debate by changing the language. And I think you and 476 00:39:25.719 --> 00:39:32.760 I have discussed some parts of this before. We effectively ditched the pop culture 477 00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:38.880 baggage that came with the term UFO by replacing it with UAP. Now, 478 00:39:38.920 --> 00:39:49.559 I brief that certainly to a US political, military, and intelligence community audience 479 00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:55.519 in June of two thousand and eleven in DC. And it's a matter of 480 00:39:55.639 --> 00:40:04.400 record that obviously even people like Hillary Clinton suddenly started saying in her media interviews 481 00:40:04.440 --> 00:40:07.920 about this. No, no, there's a new term for this. It's 482 00:40:07.960 --> 00:40:14.000 not UFO anymore, it's UAP. But it wasn't just Clinton. It clearly 483 00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:22.440 got into the system. And I don't want to claim undue UK influence here 484 00:40:23.360 --> 00:40:28.440 or kind of reach in terms of a TIP. I will let the people 485 00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:35.119 involved with ATIP speak to that themselves. But again there's no getting away from 486 00:40:35.159 --> 00:40:38.000 the fact that if you look, for example, just at the use of 487 00:40:38.039 --> 00:40:44.360 the word UAP, we were doing that in the Ministry Defense in the nineties. 488 00:40:44.840 --> 00:40:50.280 If you look at Harry Reid's all important June twenty fourth, two thousand 489 00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:57.119 and nine letter to William Lynn, the third Deputy Secretary of Defense, one 490 00:40:57.199 --> 00:41:04.000 of the very few of paperwork that we still have on the a TIP program, 491 00:41:04.039 --> 00:41:08.599 but probably one of the most important, if not the most important. 492 00:41:10.159 --> 00:41:15.159 You can see now not a lot of people have actually done this, but 493 00:41:15.239 --> 00:41:23.800 if you look at some of the emerging disruptive technologies that Harry Reid talks about, 494 00:41:24.159 --> 00:41:30.159 you'll see a clear parallel between the language that Harry Reid uses and the 495 00:41:30.280 --> 00:41:36.440 language that we used in the Ministry of Defense in an intelligent assessment of the 496 00:41:36.559 --> 00:41:44.840 UFO phenomenon that was code named Project Condine. Now, the official title of 497 00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:52.079 that study, Project Condine, was Unidentified Aerial Phenomena in the UK Air Defense 498 00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:55.079 Region. A bit of a mouthful, I know, but there are clear 499 00:41:55.159 --> 00:42:00.519 parallels which not many people have I think picked up on in the language there. 500 00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:05.320 So again I'll let the ATIP people speak to this themselves, and they 501 00:42:05.360 --> 00:42:09.880 don't want to make inflated claims, but the language that the similarity in the 502 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:16.239 language is interesting. And it's also interesting that Harry Reid in that letter talks, 503 00:42:16.280 --> 00:42:22.800 for example, about what he terms the human interface and human effects aspect 504 00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:28.519 of the ATIP program, when again, this is something that we were doing 505 00:42:28.519 --> 00:42:34.280 in Project Condine in relation to the Rendalsham Forest incident, where we were talking 506 00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:40.480 about prolonged exposure to what we termed uap radiation. So this, again, 507 00:42:40.599 --> 00:42:45.880 I think is an important part of the story, and the full story has 508 00:42:45.960 --> 00:42:49.880 yet to emerge. I think we're going to be hearing more about this in 509 00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:54.239 the next few weeks. I suspect, but I wanted to put it on 510 00:42:54.280 --> 00:42:59.679 the record, and I've certainly done so in a couple of interviews and in 511 00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:05.599 an art to kill the UK national daily newspaper Metro published a few weeks ago. 512 00:43:06.679 --> 00:43:08.599 Now I want to get into that. But it's great that you brought 513 00:43:08.679 --> 00:43:17.239 up Condine because that was put together by the Defense Intelligence staff and a story 514 00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:22.719 that you put out just recently. And this normally would be a big story 515 00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:27.400 in the UFO community, but of course it's gotten overlooked by everything that's been 516 00:43:27.480 --> 00:43:34.480 going on. That finally a couple of these last UFO files. The UK 517 00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:39.840 DOODC or Ministry of Defense, said they had released all their UFO files. 518 00:43:39.880 --> 00:43:43.719 It turned out that they in two thousand and eight, turned out that they 519 00:43:43.800 --> 00:43:47.719 hadn't. There were still some stragglers and it's taken them years to get these 520 00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:52.119 documents out. And finally the last two files come out, and you found 521 00:43:52.199 --> 00:44:00.320 something really interesting. This infighting going on between the Defense Intelligence staff and others. 522 00:44:00.639 --> 00:44:05.320 Tell us about what you found in those files. Well, it was 523 00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:12.559 interesting, and you make a very important point actually that perhaps this story didn't 524 00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:15.239 get the publicity that it would have. I think there are two reasons for 525 00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:22.599 that. Firstly, it's been overshadowed, understandably by the bigger and still unfolding 526 00:44:22.880 --> 00:44:29.440 story of the A TIP program and the US Navy interaction with this phenomenon, 527 00:44:29.679 --> 00:44:35.960 and the new Navy guidance to their pilots and radar operators another personnel about this. 528 00:44:36.360 --> 00:44:39.719 The other reason why I don't think this story made quite the media splash 529 00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:45.840 that it might have is that, in one sense, it looks like we've 530 00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:50.719 had this story before, and we have. The Ministry of Defense in June 531 00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:58.599 two thousand and thirteen announced that they had completed the program to declassify and release 532 00:44:58.639 --> 00:45:02.679 the files, as you rightly point out, they hadn't. They then discovered 533 00:45:02.920 --> 00:45:10.719 further files that had not been released. They went backwards and forwards between the 534 00:45:10.760 --> 00:45:15.920 Ministry of Defense and the National Archives in the UK again, as you say, 535 00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:22.840 literally for years, and interestingly Rendelsham Forest witnessed John Burrows played arguably I 536 00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:30.519 think the key role in discovering or lobbying the Ministry Defense to release these further 537 00:45:30.599 --> 00:45:36.320 files. But it's still even from that took some years and in all, 538 00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:40.800 the program has taken eleven years. I mean I left the Ministry Defense in 539 00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:45.360 two thousand and six. In two thousand and eight, as I think you 540 00:45:45.400 --> 00:45:50.119 know, because we've discussed it, I came out of retirement to help with 541 00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:57.760 this program, and I actually made the official announcement on the National Archives website. 542 00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:02.840 I've probably done literally thousands of interviews over the last eleven years. But 543 00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:08.760 it does have a sense of deja vu about it because people correctly recall having 544 00:46:08.800 --> 00:46:14.719 read from June twenty thirteen onwards. Yes, yes, this is the last 545 00:46:14.760 --> 00:46:19.079 of the files, and of course every couple of years there was a oh, 546 00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:22.599 well, here are a few extra ones we've discovered. Now we really 547 00:46:22.639 --> 00:46:27.960 do have I think the last of them. And yes, this dog fight, 548 00:46:28.840 --> 00:46:35.199 this skeptic versus believer dogfight going on in the Ministry of Defense in the 549 00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:42.519 United Kingdom between the Defense Intelligence Staff, who wanted to do much more in 550 00:46:42.599 --> 00:46:47.480 depth research and investigation into this from a scientific and technical intelligence point, and 551 00:46:47.559 --> 00:46:54.159 the Policy Division on UFOs, who handled the way that this subject was viewed 552 00:46:54.599 --> 00:47:02.400 and investigated and researched across government. The Policy Division wanted to back off and 553 00:47:02.480 --> 00:47:07.800 were far more worried about how this would be perceived in the British Parliament and 554 00:47:07.840 --> 00:47:15.360 the media, for example, whether it would whether it would contradict statements previously 555 00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:20.119 made by defense ministers, including the Secretary of State for Defense, that we 556 00:47:20.199 --> 00:47:25.320 don't really put much resources into this, and then something like Project Condine comes 557 00:47:25.320 --> 00:47:30.559 along and wait a minute, this is effectively an intelligence assessment of the phenomenon. 558 00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:37.800 So the files show this story of the fundamental breakdown in relations between the 559 00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:43.679 two parts of the ministry who were supposed to be cooperating on this. Now 560 00:47:43.719 --> 00:47:49.000 I say not guilty from a personal point of view before you ask me. 561 00:47:49.400 --> 00:47:53.960 When I was there, because of my high security clearance, my need to 562 00:47:54.039 --> 00:48:00.480 know, and my good working relationship with colleagues in the Defense Intelligence staff, 563 00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:04.639 we didn't have any of this. It was seamless. We were in and 564 00:48:04.679 --> 00:48:09.239 out of each other's offices, you know, every week, swapping ideas, 565 00:48:09.760 --> 00:48:15.239 plotting how we would take this forward. It was my opposite number and I 566 00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:20.599 who sat down and changed UFO to UAP and all this is in the files, 567 00:48:20.840 --> 00:48:25.159 by the way. But yes, it was unfortunate that for a number 568 00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:32.960 of reasons after I left there was this breakdown in relations and if it wasn't 569 00:48:34.119 --> 00:48:39.880 so dire in terms of the defense and national security implications. It would also 570 00:48:40.119 --> 00:48:44.760 it would almost be comedic. I mean it was almost literally by the end 571 00:48:44.840 --> 00:48:49.480 of the relationship, they weren't even talking to each other. Wow. So 572 00:48:49.519 --> 00:48:52.239 we've got to take a break. But we're going to get more into this 573 00:48:52.400 --> 00:48:57.599 because there are a lot of parallels with what's going on, what's being revealed 574 00:48:57.679 --> 00:49:02.519 in the television show about to the Stars and Alezando and this Pentagon program, 575 00:49:02.920 --> 00:49:07.519 but also some of the infighting between departments. There's just a lot of parallels 576 00:49:07.519 --> 00:49:12.320 between what you all experienced rotating in the UK and what's going on now. 577 00:49:12.519 --> 00:49:15.960 And we'll get into that after the break. We're going to take a short 578 00:49:15.960 --> 00:49:20.400 break. For those of you listening on a radio show or program, you'll 579 00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:24.199 hear commercials. For the rest of you, you'll hear a short musical interlude, 580 00:49:24.440 --> 00:50:12.159 and we'll be right back with Nick Pope. I am back. This 581 00:50:12.199 --> 00:50:15.199 is your host, Alejandro Rojas. You're listening to Open Mind UFO Radio, 582 00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:21.800 and I'm talking to Nick Pope, formerly of the Ministry of Defense. UFO 583 00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:25.239 Desk, that's that's how we call it, but the UFO Desk, So 584 00:50:25.480 --> 00:50:29.800 some of the controversies going on right now that parallel what you used to do, 585 00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:31.960 and we'll get this will all get into what we were just talking about 586 00:50:32.719 --> 00:50:38.360 as well. But one of these controversies is people are arguing that Lou Alessando, 587 00:50:38.519 --> 00:50:43.039 who worked for you know, a tip, ran it, this term 588 00:50:43.400 --> 00:50:47.519 ran it, and people give you a lot of heck about this. In 589 00:50:47.519 --> 00:50:51.679 fact, I get it because they are like, why do you say Nick 590 00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:54.800 is so great when he says he ran the UFO desk, that there was 591 00:50:54.840 --> 00:50:59.920 no big department he was in charge of, And people are kind of saying, 592 00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:01.840 Lou, the same thing you're saying, you ran this a tip thing 593 00:51:01.880 --> 00:51:07.079 it was it was smaller, you know, debating the semantics of the turn 594 00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:12.960 ran. Do you feel there's a similarity in the attacks against Arizonto that you've 595 00:51:13.039 --> 00:51:16.960 received for any same kind of accusations, Yes, there is, And in 596 00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:22.079 fact Lew and I have discussed this very issue with a kind of rye smile 597 00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:30.559 and the laugh. I think he's beginning to experience what I've experienced for the 598 00:51:30.039 --> 00:51:36.639 last few years. Sometimes. I mean we we in the UK, for 599 00:51:36.679 --> 00:51:42.440 example, and I know the parallels are uncanny. Remember all the debate about 600 00:51:42.079 --> 00:51:46.719 what a tip was actually called whether it was aerospace or aviation, whether there 601 00:51:46.719 --> 00:51:53.000 was an extra and in the title somewhere what the relationship was between a TIP 602 00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:58.840 and ORSAP. I had exactly the same in the UK. Was it the 603 00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:04.559 UFO project, Was it the UFO Desk? Was it the UFO program? 604 00:52:05.800 --> 00:52:08.880 Technically it was neither because we didn't, unlike the US with Blue Book, 605 00:52:08.920 --> 00:52:15.159 we didn't actually give it a name. So it was a workstream that was 606 00:52:15.199 --> 00:52:22.159 embedded in a division called Secretariat Air Staff. But Secretariat air Staff is meaningless 607 00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:29.679 to people outside the department, so one has to communicate through nicknames and colloquialisms. 608 00:52:30.440 --> 00:52:35.800 Now I'm fortunate. I'm fortunate in that of course, for anyone that 609 00:52:36.239 --> 00:52:40.679 doubted my position, not only has it now been confirmed by the British Parliament, 610 00:52:40.760 --> 00:52:45.480 but of course, as we've just discussed before the break, somewhere in 611 00:52:45.519 --> 00:52:52.119 the region of sixty thousand pages of documents pertaining to my old job have now 612 00:52:52.159 --> 00:52:57.119 been declassified and released, and I tell you several hundred of them still have 613 00:52:57.199 --> 00:53:00.280 my name on, even though I think they were supposed to redact them. 614 00:53:00.280 --> 00:53:02.760 But you know, never mind, it's all out there, and I'm sure 615 00:53:02.800 --> 00:53:10.400 that as time goes by Lou will be completely vindicated by similar disclosures. I 616 00:53:10.440 --> 00:53:17.559 think that there are still hundreds, if not thousands, of a TIP related 617 00:53:17.880 --> 00:53:24.960 Freedom of Information Act requests in the pipeline. I've heard estimates that it will 618 00:53:24.960 --> 00:53:30.840 be twenty twenty maybe twenty twenty one before all of those are necessarily dealt with 619 00:53:30.840 --> 00:53:35.039 with full responses. But when they do, I'm sure we're going to find 620 00:53:35.119 --> 00:53:38.559 Lou's name all over this, just as we found in the UK. I 621 00:53:38.639 --> 00:53:43.559 mean not only not only am I mentioned in these files, as I say, 622 00:53:43.880 --> 00:53:46.679 I wrote a large proportion of them, and I think that's what we're 623 00:53:46.679 --> 00:53:51.800 going to find with Lou. But here's the other point. I think people 624 00:53:51.880 --> 00:53:58.880 sometimes seem to forget a couple of things. I just sent a tweet this 625 00:53:58.960 --> 00:54:02.800 morning pointing out this very thing. For anyone who says, well, look, 626 00:54:05.400 --> 00:54:09.519 a DoD press officer has now made this statement, and doesn't this call 627 00:54:09.559 --> 00:54:15.199 in to question lose role in relation to a tip, whether he ran it 628 00:54:15.320 --> 00:54:21.480 or whether he was simply somebody who was on it or had access to it, 629 00:54:21.599 --> 00:54:23.760 or however you want to describe it. You know, we can get 630 00:54:23.800 --> 00:54:29.679 too bogged down in the words, if you had gone this is my point. 631 00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:37.199 If you had gone to the DoD before December twenty seventeen and ask them 632 00:54:37.239 --> 00:54:40.760 about this, you wouldn't have got anything other than the line that the subject 633 00:54:40.800 --> 00:54:47.920 wasn't investigated by the department. So let's not get too hung up on what 634 00:54:49.320 --> 00:54:55.960 public affairs officers and press officers say. And let's also not kid ourselves that 635 00:54:57.280 --> 00:55:01.599 any of those people are going to have anything other than a brief sheet of 636 00:55:01.679 --> 00:55:07.880 paper that they're given by the subject matter expert saying this is your line to 637 00:55:07.960 --> 00:55:13.360 take. They are not going to have actual access into those intelligence programs, 638 00:55:13.480 --> 00:55:16.880 and rightly so exactly, I think. Yet you make a great point. 639 00:55:16.920 --> 00:55:20.480 In fact, that's exactly what I was going to bring up next is your 640 00:55:20.519 --> 00:55:24.000 tweet from this morning, which I thought was great and brings us back to 641 00:55:24.079 --> 00:55:28.239 reality. Just like you said, Yeah, before December twenty seventeen, they 642 00:55:28.239 --> 00:55:31.679 were telling us there was no program. So I plus your perspective on this 643 00:55:31.760 --> 00:55:37.360 is important because you understand bureaucracy, but they're and you know, kind of 644 00:55:37.360 --> 00:55:40.199 getting back to your point, how you and Lou have found yourself in a 645 00:55:40.199 --> 00:55:45.519 similar position. There actually is an advantage that Lou has in a way in 646 00:55:45.880 --> 00:55:52.079 that he has a lot of colleagues that have kind of coming out as part 647 00:55:52.119 --> 00:55:58.000 of all of this, such as contractors like Eric Davis or how put Off 648 00:55:58.440 --> 00:56:01.119 who have talked about working with Lou with this program, or you have you 649 00:56:01.159 --> 00:56:07.440 know, people like Chris Mellon who has mentioned that he worked with Lou during 650 00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:10.199 the AIGHTEP period of time in trying to get this information to the Secretary of 651 00:56:10.199 --> 00:56:15.559 Defense. So at least he even you know, beyond just these statements from 652 00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:22.480 the DoD, has a host of very credible characters, you know, backing 653 00:56:22.559 --> 00:56:27.920 him that he was working in this program. Absolutely, almost every statement from 654 00:56:27.920 --> 00:56:31.599 anyone involved in this, whether it was at a governmental level or a contractor 655 00:56:31.760 --> 00:56:37.119 level, has said, hey, it was Lou's sitting across the desk as 656 00:56:37.960 --> 00:56:42.440 the guy in government that we had to deal with on this. So you 657 00:56:42.440 --> 00:56:46.239 know, you can have a debate about whether he ran it or was director 658 00:56:46.400 --> 00:56:51.280 of it, but there's no getting away from the fact that if anything went 659 00:56:51.360 --> 00:56:53.840 on with a TIP, it was Lou Alizondo who was the guy in the 660 00:56:53.920 --> 00:56:58.639 room at the meetings. He was the guy on the distribution list of the 661 00:56:59.559 --> 00:57:05.639 document. So you know, let's not get to hung up on whether it 662 00:57:05.880 --> 00:57:10.880 was a formal program or a project or a workstream or whatever it was. 663 00:57:12.159 --> 00:57:17.840 And look, I've worked in that world myself in intelligence. The whole point 664 00:57:19.239 --> 00:57:22.719 often is that you try and blur the lines. The whole point is that 665 00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:29.280 you try to minimize the paper trail. The whole point is that very often 666 00:57:29.320 --> 00:57:35.639 you're keeping this off the radar of people in your own department, even because 667 00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:42.800 very often what people don't get is that that projects like this are incredibly vulnerable 668 00:57:43.840 --> 00:57:50.519 in an environment where all sorts of managers are competing for limited resources and access 669 00:57:50.559 --> 00:57:55.760 to senior managers. Everyone's after the same pot of money. And you know, 670 00:57:55.960 --> 00:58:00.599 if you get a chance to kind of kill off somebody else's program at 671 00:58:00.639 --> 00:58:07.079 the expense of yours, or or subsume somebody's program under your own authority, 672 00:58:07.119 --> 00:58:08.880 I mean, this sort of thing goes on all the time. People have 673 00:58:08.960 --> 00:58:16.880 this mistake in view that everything in government is all homogeneous and everyone's kind of 674 00:58:16.920 --> 00:58:22.880 marching in the same direction. Absolutely not. It's often a case that people 675 00:58:22.960 --> 00:58:27.079 work in silos. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand's doing. 676 00:58:27.360 --> 00:58:32.400 And then you factor in that this was not only highly classified, but deeply 677 00:58:32.760 --> 00:58:38.920 sensitive politically in terms of just this whole subject being such a hot potato. 678 00:58:39.440 --> 00:58:45.239 It doesn't surprise me that it's a little bit difficult for journalists and bloggers and 679 00:58:45.280 --> 00:58:51.920 people making FOI requests to get to the bottom of every last question about this. 680 00:58:52.119 --> 00:58:55.400 And that's exactly the way that people running those sorts of programs designed it. 681 00:58:57.719 --> 00:59:00.280 So and that's why I think you're spective is really important in this, 682 00:59:00.440 --> 00:59:06.559 because you have this background with press. Also, certainly when you were helping 683 00:59:06.559 --> 00:59:09.239 the mod with the release of these final files, it was kind of a 684 00:59:09.239 --> 00:59:15.679 pr effort right to to really it wasn't. It wasn't just let me go 685 00:59:15.760 --> 00:59:19.840 back and make one more point about press officers. I've done this. I've 686 00:59:20.400 --> 00:59:25.960 I've been the subject matter expert briefing the press office on on this, on 687 00:59:28.039 --> 00:59:32.719 not just UFOs but on some some other unrelated defense business. And there's a 688 00:59:32.719 --> 00:59:37.599 standard format for it in in the UK, where I'm I'm virtually certain that 689 00:59:38.039 --> 00:59:43.679 you can read this across to the US. What you do is you you 690 00:59:43.800 --> 00:59:49.360 on any given subject, you give the press officer what's called a key message, 691 00:59:50.039 --> 00:59:53.639 and this is the message that you want the media to run. And 692 00:59:53.679 --> 01:00:01.320 sometimes it's playing up a good news story or playing down a bad news story, 693 01:00:01.639 --> 01:00:06.440 and you have this key message that you want to get cross, and 694 01:00:06.480 --> 01:00:12.199 then you have what are called supporting lines to take, which are sometimes defensive. 695 01:00:12.280 --> 01:00:15.880 In other words, you only raise them if the journalist actually asks. 696 01:00:16.199 --> 01:00:22.920 But these are very carefully and cleverly crafted and they are given to the press 697 01:00:22.960 --> 01:00:27.079 officers. And the press officers, of course haven't been working on these programs. 698 01:00:27.239 --> 01:00:31.360 They are just given this brief to speak from and their job is to 699 01:00:31.440 --> 01:00:37.760 get this key message across. So the story runs in a way favorable to 700 01:00:37.840 --> 01:00:40.559 the way in which the department wants it to come out. End of story, 701 01:00:42.159 --> 01:00:46.760 right. It's their way to keep some modicum of control on the message, 702 01:00:47.360 --> 01:00:53.079 especially in this case where it appears, I mean there's some we like 703 01:00:53.119 --> 01:00:57.280 you just said, the government is in a bunch of people who are all 704 01:00:57.320 --> 01:01:02.000 headed in the same direction. Talked about in these recent UK files, there 705 01:01:02.079 --> 01:01:07.800 was apparent, you know, arguments between these couple of departments, and it 706 01:01:07.840 --> 01:01:12.039 seems like we have quite a bit of that going on as this a tip 707 01:01:12.119 --> 01:01:16.760 story develops. As well, you have you know, the Navy being very 708 01:01:16.800 --> 01:01:21.760 cooperative working with a history channel on this television show. But then you have 709 01:01:21.960 --> 01:01:28.280 the DoD PR department or the public affairs kind of like you know, throwing 710 01:01:28.719 --> 01:01:31.639 a ranch in things a bit. And honestly, they're kind of caught under 711 01:01:31.679 --> 01:01:35.239 the gun. I'm sure you know lud didn't give them heads up. Hey 712 01:01:35.280 --> 01:01:37.519 guys, I'm gonna be talking about this UFO program. You didn't know, 713 01:01:37.599 --> 01:01:45.000 so get prepared for an avalanche of questions and foyer requests. So they're kind 714 01:01:45.039 --> 01:01:47.280 of under the gun. And we've seen over and over again they've made these 715 01:01:47.360 --> 01:01:52.039 these statements, these quick statements, and then had to retrack them or adjust 716 01:01:52.079 --> 01:01:57.639 them as time has gone on. Yes, and let's not forget that any 717 01:01:57.800 --> 01:02:04.880 time they wanted to could have killed this story by saying, look, people, 718 01:02:05.280 --> 01:02:12.719 when we use phrases like unauthorized and or unidentified aircraft, we one hundred 719 01:02:12.719 --> 01:02:19.239 percent mean conventional aircraft, missiles and drones. We don't necessarily say that we 720 01:02:19.239 --> 01:02:23.239 can identify all of them at this stage, but we are one hundred percent 721 01:02:23.320 --> 01:02:28.320 certain that this is just aircraft, missiles, and drones. And yet that's 722 01:02:28.360 --> 01:02:32.159 not what they say. It's as if they deliberately go that step further. 723 01:02:32.639 --> 01:02:38.599 And your right to point out the mixed messages that we've been getting, because, 724 01:02:38.639 --> 01:02:44.360 for example, the DIA when they wrote to Congress about this. They 725 01:02:44.639 --> 01:02:52.400 very much used the language of far term aviation threats. But then the US 726 01:02:52.599 --> 01:02:58.159 Navy, just as you think that the government have got that particular genie back 727 01:02:58.199 --> 01:03:02.320 into the bottle by by talking about this in terms of aircraft, missiles, 728 01:03:02.360 --> 01:03:08.039 and drones, the US Navy upset the apple cart by coming out with this 729 01:03:08.119 --> 01:03:15.119 bombshell statement, yes, we did pursue researching investigation into unidentified aerial phenomena. 730 01:03:15.320 --> 01:03:21.880 So it's almost as if they've carefully tried to manage this and spin it one 731 01:03:21.920 --> 01:03:27.320 way and then another part of the system. In this case, the US 732 01:03:27.440 --> 01:03:30.880 Navy says, you know what, that's not right and we're not going to 733 01:03:31.000 --> 01:03:39.039 let that stand, and they go and reignite the UFO speculation by throwing this 734 01:03:39.159 --> 01:03:45.159 bombshell phrase UAP right back into the center of the stage. Now what do 735 01:03:45.199 --> 01:03:50.480 you make of this? So, because there's another player here that's been mostly 736 01:03:50.760 --> 01:03:54.920 very silent, although they've had a recent statement that I think is very interesting, 737 01:03:55.440 --> 01:03:59.440 But that's the Air Force. When the Navy said they were going to 738 01:03:59.480 --> 01:04:03.800 come up with sidelines, they said that we the Navy and the Air Force, 739 01:04:03.920 --> 01:04:11.280 take this very seriously. I don't think that them including the Air Force 740 01:04:11.519 --> 01:04:15.480 in their statement was a mistake. It seems very calculated, but what for 741 01:04:15.559 --> 01:04:18.440 it does? It seemed like they were trying to drag the Air Force into 742 01:04:18.440 --> 01:04:24.239 this conversation, who obviously has not inserted themselves in any way at this point. 743 01:04:25.519 --> 01:04:29.599 Yes, I think if I was in the United States Air Force right 744 01:04:29.639 --> 01:04:34.159 now, I'd be pretty annoyed with the Navy, because I think my strategy 745 01:04:34.199 --> 01:04:39.360 would be, let's try and keep out of this, and then you find 746 01:04:39.360 --> 01:04:45.159 another branch of the military kind of dragging you into the spotlight and out of 747 01:04:45.199 --> 01:04:48.400 the shadows with this. And my goodness, if I in my twenty one 748 01:04:48.480 --> 01:04:54.880 years in the UK Ministry Defense only three years on the UFO issue, But 749 01:04:55.440 --> 01:05:00.400 if I had a dollar for every time some issue of inter service rivalry came 750 01:05:00.519 --> 01:05:05.679 up, I would have a lot of dollars. And it's an interesting angle. 751 01:05:05.800 --> 01:05:12.559 Some of the unasked questions about this are worth getting into. One is 752 01:05:12.880 --> 01:05:18.519 to what extent does into service rivalry, including and this probably is a whole 753 01:05:18.519 --> 01:05:25.599 another show, but including ideas about a space force. How does that play 754 01:05:25.639 --> 01:05:30.679 into this debate? How much, if any of what we're seeing now is 755 01:05:30.760 --> 01:05:42.920 about jockeying for position and scrambling for resources in a future battle space that is 756 01:05:42.960 --> 01:05:46.880 clearly going to be critical in any future war. That's one one of the 757 01:05:46.920 --> 01:05:53.199 big, frankly unasked questions about this. Right, that's a good point, 758 01:05:53.239 --> 01:05:56.400 and to this, just real quick, don't forget your other point is that 759 01:05:56.599 --> 01:06:00.480 we at least have heard a little bit of inkling. And George Napper referred 760 01:06:00.480 --> 01:06:04.800 to this that some of that budget was essentially stolen away is probably not the 761 01:06:04.880 --> 01:06:11.639 right term, but that someone just like you're talking about was successful in being 762 01:06:11.719 --> 01:06:15.719 able to pull some of those funds their way. Yes, I mean, 763 01:06:15.840 --> 01:06:24.360 my goodness, some of the dog fights in the UK about this were huge. 764 01:06:24.599 --> 01:06:29.440 I mean, for example, the UK's strategic nuclear deterrent. The Royal 765 01:06:29.480 --> 01:06:33.239 Air Force said we should have this, it should be delivered by long range 766 01:06:33.239 --> 01:06:36.960 bombers. The Navy said no, no, you should put this on ballistic 767 01:06:36.960 --> 01:06:43.719 missile submarines. And the Navy of course won out. But this was billion 768 01:06:44.000 --> 01:06:49.400 dollar dog fight over resources and influence at the highest level, and so how 769 01:06:49.480 --> 01:06:55.719 much of that is a factor. I think one of the other big unasked 770 01:06:55.880 --> 01:07:00.280 questions about this, and I don't necessarily claim to have an answer, but 771 01:07:00.119 --> 01:07:04.519 sometimes it's the questions that are important is how is all this playing out in 772 01:07:04.599 --> 01:07:12.199 Russia and China. It will not have escaped the leadership in Russia and China 773 01:07:12.599 --> 01:07:15.920 that for the last eighteen months or so, the US has kind of done 774 01:07:15.920 --> 01:07:21.800 a one to eighty degree flip on this, that after decades of down playing 775 01:07:21.840 --> 01:07:28.199 and denying this, it's almost as if they're now pushing it themselves. As 776 01:07:28.199 --> 01:07:30.760 I say, just as you think they've got it back into the box, 777 01:07:30.559 --> 01:07:36.719 they reignite the debate by using phrases like UAP that they know are going to 778 01:07:36.719 --> 01:07:41.400 be like a red rang to or bull. What is the leadership in Russia 779 01:07:41.480 --> 01:07:49.599 and China asking their military and intelligence chiefs and to what extent is that part 780 01:07:49.679 --> 01:07:54.639 of the story here? So I think I think there are some big aspects 781 01:07:54.679 --> 01:07:57.719 of this. We all get bogged down in oh, look at those look 782 01:07:57.760 --> 01:08:00.800 at those three videos, and that's very important and interesting. But there are 783 01:08:00.840 --> 01:08:08.400 other aspects to this, the geopolitical aspects that we haven't really kind of talked 784 01:08:08.440 --> 01:08:13.639 through yet. Yeah. I think as this unfolds, especially people that are 785 01:08:14.320 --> 01:08:17.880 more savvy around those sort of topics, will begin to ask those questions, 786 01:08:18.159 --> 01:08:23.720 and those conversations are beginning So to get to your last point, no doubt 787 01:08:24.039 --> 01:08:30.079 Russia and China are very aware of American perceptions, or at least very concerned 788 01:08:31.119 --> 01:08:40.279 actively in America's perceptions of their technological capabilities. And that's where the Air Force 789 01:08:40.359 --> 01:08:45.119 has come in. So Task and Purpose wrote an article recently where they were 790 01:08:45.119 --> 01:08:49.680 debating, you know, and talking about could these be drones from China and 791 01:08:49.760 --> 01:08:55.319 Russia, And in fact, they had a Navy spokesperson say it's possible, 792 01:08:55.479 --> 01:08:58.880 we don't know yet, we're still looking into it, and then an air 793 01:08:58.920 --> 01:09:02.279 Force spokesperson this is the only instance I'm aware of. You may be aware 794 01:09:02.319 --> 01:09:06.279 of others that the Air Force has chimed in. And they said, no, 795 01:09:06.800 --> 01:09:12.079 that's probably not the case. They said, any drone that could fly 796 01:09:12.119 --> 01:09:15.239 from Russia or China to the United States East Coast would have to be at 797 01:09:15.319 --> 01:09:18.520 least as large as an MQ nine Reaper, very big, and the data 798 01:09:18.560 --> 01:09:23.479 link used to fly the aircraft would be detectable. So he's saying that, 799 01:09:23.520 --> 01:09:27.880 well, we don't know what these things are, but they're probably not Russia 800 01:09:27.920 --> 01:09:31.359 and Chinese Chinese drones. Well, it's all smoke and mirrors, and I 801 01:09:31.359 --> 01:09:35.239 don't want to go too far. Down this road for obvious reasons, but 802 01:09:35.319 --> 01:09:43.079 sometimes in intelligence work the trick is to hide a capability that you do have 803 01:09:43.840 --> 01:09:47.079 and to make the other side think you have a capability that you don't have. 804 01:09:47.359 --> 01:09:53.359 Right, So again there's that to factor in. But here's here's one 805 01:09:53.399 --> 01:09:57.560 other interesting point about this. Nick goes back to your point about how little 806 01:09:57.560 --> 01:10:01.600 we've heard from from the Air Force as opposed to the Navy. Again, 807 01:10:01.640 --> 01:10:05.199 there's no getting away from the fact that as we look at our troubled world 808 01:10:05.319 --> 01:10:13.359 today, so many of the major potential flash points are obviously going to involve 809 01:10:13.479 --> 01:10:17.439 naval forces. Whether it's it's the East China Sea and the Spratly Islands, 810 01:10:17.720 --> 01:10:23.079 whether it's the Strait of Hall Meus, whether it's the Baltic whether it's the 811 01:10:23.079 --> 01:10:26.279 Black Sea. But it's going to be the Navy in the front line of 812 01:10:26.319 --> 01:10:30.399 a lot of this. And again I can't help but wonder is that something 813 01:10:30.439 --> 01:10:34.359 to factor into all this. That's another great point. So moving on to 814 01:10:34.439 --> 01:10:41.720 another topic. And this was actually when I originally scheduled this going to be 815 01:10:41.760 --> 01:10:45.159 the main topic, but there's so much that has happened that I've really been 816 01:10:45.279 --> 01:10:48.359 enjoying the I think a very important conversation we've been having thus far. But 817 01:10:48.439 --> 01:10:54.000 you had also written an article about you know, the New York Times had 818 01:10:54.039 --> 01:11:00.640 mentioned that ATIP had looked into the physical effects of people in I even asked 819 01:11:00.640 --> 01:11:04.720 this of Loue Elizondo in my interview with him recently. You know, it 820 01:11:04.880 --> 01:11:09.760 is a rendal sham factor into that, and he said essentially no comment. 821 01:11:09.880 --> 01:11:15.800 Watched the show, so apparently they're gonna address this. But you have kind 822 01:11:15.840 --> 01:11:19.479 of gone there and the Condon Report, as you said, John Burrows is 823 01:11:19.520 --> 01:11:23.520 one of the witnesses in rendels Shom. In fact, at the UFO Congress 824 01:11:23.560 --> 01:11:27.880 we gave him an award for the work that you had mentioned earlier getting finding 825 01:11:27.920 --> 01:11:32.439 out about these other files. But he has written or at least spoken quite 826 01:11:32.479 --> 01:11:35.920 a bit about how you know, in that Condon report they had talked about 827 01:11:36.039 --> 01:11:43.920 UAP effects on them, in particular at Rendelsham. So it seems that that 828 01:11:44.520 --> 01:11:48.159 it wasn't just Condon. Condon was kind of speculative, but that there is 829 01:11:48.439 --> 01:11:55.319 actual physical work going on in studying these individuals. Yes, there is. 830 01:11:55.560 --> 01:12:00.760 Now Again, I had no involvement in in the A TIP program obviously, 831 01:12:00.800 --> 01:12:06.560 and I'm not going to attempt to speak for anyone involved with that, they 832 01:12:06.680 --> 01:12:13.319 can, you know, discuss what they like in relation to their work. 833 01:12:13.439 --> 01:12:19.720 I certainly was not cleared for any of that, and I had pretty much 834 01:12:19.800 --> 01:12:24.520 left the mod anyway by the time that all came to fruition. What I 835 01:12:24.520 --> 01:12:28.239 will say is this, it goes back to what Harry Reid termed as the 836 01:12:28.319 --> 01:12:36.000 human interface and human effects aspects of this, and I have I'll choose my 837 01:12:36.000 --> 01:12:45.000 words carefully because this is a very sensitive area, but essentially there is no 838 01:12:45.079 --> 01:12:49.119 doubt in my mind that a number of people who claim to have had close 839 01:12:49.199 --> 01:12:56.439 encounters, some of whom were involved in military events like the Rendalscham Forest incident, 840 01:12:57.760 --> 01:13:00.359 have been approached over the years and asked, for example, to provide 841 01:13:00.800 --> 01:13:08.039 blood and DNA samples, and this was I think represented to them as being 842 01:13:08.039 --> 01:13:12.960 a scientific study, which was probably perfectly true. But I think raises the 843 01:13:13.079 --> 01:13:20.680 question was the ultimate customer government and was a TIP involved in any of that. 844 01:13:20.760 --> 01:13:23.960 Now, I'm not going to answer that question, and I'm going to 845 01:13:24.479 --> 01:13:29.000 you know, I'm not involved in the Unidentified TV show. I had no 846 01:13:29.399 --> 01:13:35.359 involvement in the ATIP program. But again, I think that there's no avoiding 847 01:13:35.479 --> 01:13:42.199 the fact that some people have been looked at in relation to that, and 848 01:13:42.479 --> 01:13:45.600 the roots of some of this, yes, were in Condine. I mean, 849 01:13:45.640 --> 01:13:50.159 there was there was that throwaway line in Condine's final report where it speculated 850 01:13:50.199 --> 01:13:58.039 that the Rendelsham Forest witnesses had probably been exposed to uap radiation for longer time 851 01:13:58.159 --> 01:14:01.119 periods than normal. And I know that there have been at least two, 852 01:14:01.680 --> 01:14:11.520 maybe three, possibly more settlements with the VA that some of which involved intervention 853 01:14:11.680 --> 01:14:15.680 by US senators. Again, the sensitivity about this, and I can't get 854 01:14:15.720 --> 01:14:20.520 into the full story, but again, a lot of this has gone on, 855 01:14:21.159 --> 01:14:25.800 and I think we'll be finding out some more about this over the next 856 01:14:25.840 --> 01:14:30.399 few weeks and months, but clearly for legal and ethical reasons and reasons of 857 01:14:30.479 --> 01:14:35.279 classification, I want to err on the side of caution where it comes to 858 01:14:35.680 --> 01:14:44.399 this. Most I suppose provocative and controversial aspect the human interface and human effects 859 01:14:44.680 --> 01:14:47.439 aspects. I mean, some people have literally said to me, is this 860 01:14:47.880 --> 01:14:57.880 the US government studying even alien abductees? And I'm not going to answer that. 861 01:14:58.239 --> 01:15:01.680 I'm just going to let the cards for where they may exactly. Yeah, 862 01:15:01.760 --> 01:15:05.560 those answers still have yet to be revealed, And like lou had said, 863 01:15:06.000 --> 01:15:10.239 it turns out it seems as though we're going to get more of that 864 01:15:10.479 --> 01:15:13.920 in the television show. So luckily we're not going to have to wait too 865 01:15:14.000 --> 01:15:17.399 long to at least get some more information on that. And I'm not sure 866 01:15:17.439 --> 01:15:21.279 if you're where I actually in my latest interview with Eric Davis, one of 867 01:15:21.319 --> 01:15:27.880 the contractors a physicists with a hip or with he's worked with Big Low and 868 01:15:27.920 --> 01:15:30.159 all kinds of other people, but he admitted, you know, he had 869 01:15:30.239 --> 01:15:36.159 some things happened to him at the Skinwalker Ranch and they had the group had 870 01:15:36.199 --> 01:15:41.920 felt he was kind of a magnet for these this phenomena and that he had 871 01:15:42.000 --> 01:15:45.840 under contest and he had given them samples. So to your point, to 872 01:15:45.960 --> 01:15:48.680 also show that you know, you're not the only one talking about this, 873 01:15:48.800 --> 01:15:55.960 that Eric Davis himself is also mentioned he he gave samples. Right. Yes, 874 01:15:56.159 --> 01:15:59.479 as I say, I think we'll be hearing a lot more about this 875 01:15:59.479 --> 01:16:03.039 this sign it, but of course not least because of the scandal that followed 876 01:16:03.039 --> 01:16:12.920 the mk Ultra situation. There are extreme sensitivities when it comes to this, 877 01:16:13.039 --> 01:16:19.199 and there are also sensitivities in regard discussing individuals medical cases under hippa and such 878 01:16:19.399 --> 01:16:24.079 like. So again, there are a number of reasons why I don't want 879 01:16:24.079 --> 01:16:27.880 to go too far down this road except to say to people watch this space 880 01:16:28.520 --> 01:16:31.800 right exactly, And I think you're right, And I think that people haven't 881 01:16:31.800 --> 01:16:34.279 gotten their heads around it yet. They don't know what to make of it 882 01:16:34.319 --> 01:16:38.920 because they haven't been speaking much about it. So I was even sort of 883 01:16:39.239 --> 01:16:44.600 surprised that it would be featured on the show. Well, I don't know 884 01:16:44.640 --> 01:16:49.239 what they're going to be able to come up with on that in a public 885 01:16:49.840 --> 01:16:54.600 arena. I mean, of course, clearly I know, not least from 886 01:16:54.640 --> 01:17:00.199 personal personal discussion, that there is still a very dipical line that that Lou 887 01:17:00.520 --> 01:17:08.039 has to tread. And some of this is doubtless still fairly highly classified and 888 01:17:08.199 --> 01:17:13.319 or sensitive, probably both. So so yes, I hope we'll we'll get 889 01:17:13.359 --> 01:17:16.960 more. But goes back to the point we were discussing about press officers don't 890 01:17:17.000 --> 01:17:23.239 necessarily expect when it comes to intelligence programs that that we'll be able to get 891 01:17:23.279 --> 01:17:29.159 everything on a TV show or from a press officer. Right, so there's 892 01:17:29.199 --> 01:17:31.600 some you know, you're you're telling people a clue, right there. Take 893 01:17:31.600 --> 01:17:36.600 a look, pay attention to this this human the physical testing sort of aspects 894 01:17:36.640 --> 01:17:43.439 of all of this. Do you have any other sort of parting predictions or 895 01:17:43.600 --> 01:17:46.800 advice, Hey, keep an eye out on this area, that or that. 896 01:17:48.840 --> 01:17:54.199 I think I would only reiterate to keep an eye on some of the 897 01:17:54.199 --> 01:17:59.119 Freedom of Information Act requests that are still in the system. Some of them 898 01:17:59.159 --> 01:18:05.000 are fairly bland catch all requests please please send me all your information on a 899 01:18:05.119 --> 01:18:13.159 tip, But some of the rather more narrowly focused, cleverly crafted ones, 900 01:18:13.239 --> 01:18:17.479 I think you're going to get into some fairly interesting areas. And it's where 901 01:18:17.479 --> 01:18:23.520 there are these throwaway lines like, for example, if there is a map 902 01:18:23.560 --> 01:18:29.920 of hotspots for example, which which I've heard kind of as as one point, 903 01:18:30.159 --> 01:18:34.720 well, where are the data that populated that map? If there is 904 01:18:36.319 --> 01:18:41.279 in the ATIP program a sort of what was it, two hundred and eighty 905 01:18:41.640 --> 01:18:46.880 page document are sort of crown jewels, where is that dossier? So there 906 01:18:46.880 --> 01:18:54.000 are some very specific things that have been mentioned that most people might have forgotten, 907 01:18:54.000 --> 01:18:58.119 but not everyone has, and I think we might be hearing more about 908 01:18:58.199 --> 01:19:01.840 some of these sorts of things. So one of the things I think it 909 01:19:02.119 --> 01:19:08.079 staggers me how little official paperwork we yet have on a tip. As I 910 01:19:08.079 --> 01:19:13.399 mentioned, we have Harry Reid's two thousand and nine letter to William Lynn the 911 01:19:13.439 --> 01:19:18.079 IID, we have some of the contractual solicitation documents. We have the DIA 912 01:19:18.279 --> 01:19:26.239 letter to Congress about the various studies that were undertaken, but we don't have 913 01:19:26.439 --> 01:19:31.279 much more. But there's no doubt in my mind, even notwithstanding my point 914 01:19:31.319 --> 01:19:36.800 that you try and suppress the pay per trail where you can, but government 915 01:19:36.880 --> 01:19:43.479 is what it is, and there will definitely be despite that intention to sometimes 916 01:19:43.560 --> 01:19:46.760 generate as little paperwork as you can, and where you do generate it to 917 01:19:47.079 --> 01:19:54.720 make sure that it doesn't come out to press officers and bloggers and UFO community 918 01:19:54.760 --> 01:20:00.079 people, there will be some material that inevitably has to come out just because 919 01:20:00.079 --> 01:20:05.800 the FOI requests are sufficiently well crafted. So keep an eye on that. 920 01:20:08.079 --> 01:20:11.199 I think that's a really great point. I mean, this is very fertile 921 01:20:11.239 --> 01:20:15.079 ground. We know it exists, and as we've seen in the past, 922 01:20:15.239 --> 01:20:20.600 and even as you all had experienced in the UK that even the most tightly 923 01:20:20.680 --> 01:20:26.479 held records, it takes time, but eventually we'll start to see more. 924 01:20:26.600 --> 01:20:29.520 So this may play out just like we just got. You know, these 925 01:20:29.600 --> 01:20:34.079 last files from the UK. The whole release of files will probably be a 926 01:20:34.159 --> 01:20:39.239 slow process that will go on for the next few years. Absolutely, but 927 01:20:39.319 --> 01:20:45.880 don't rule out some left field revelation that takes everyone by surprise, whether it's 928 01:20:45.920 --> 01:20:50.840 a new individual associated with some of this coming forward and speaking out, or 929 01:20:50.880 --> 01:20:56.800 something that takes the debate off in an unexpected direction. I mean, there 930 01:20:56.800 --> 01:21:00.520 are aspects to this. We've seen the videos, for example, the navy 931 01:21:00.600 --> 01:21:04.039 jets chasing the UFOs. We've heard talk of meta materials, so there are 932 01:21:04.119 --> 01:21:10.640 kind of and we've discussed the human effects. Don't be surprised if something else 933 01:21:10.800 --> 01:21:16.279 that didn't previously have visibility suddenly explodes into the public consciousness. I agree, 934 01:21:16.319 --> 01:21:25.760 probably multiple something else's I wouldn't be surprised. Well, thank you so very, 935 01:21:25.880 --> 01:21:30.319 very very much for doing this interview. This has been incredible every time 936 01:21:30.359 --> 01:21:33.399 we talk to you, it's so incredibly enlightening and it demonstrates, you know, 937 01:21:33.680 --> 01:21:40.520 the importance of input from people who have had the experience to be able 938 01:21:40.520 --> 01:21:44.199 to have some more insight into all of this for us. So thank you 939 01:21:44.319 --> 01:21:47.199 for once again coming on the show. Thank you very much, and I 940 01:21:47.199 --> 01:21:51.560 guess I'll be seeing you in alien con right in just a week. Absolutely 941 01:21:51.680 --> 01:21:58.920 looking forward to that. Alrighty, fascinating and fun. Yeah, we'll see 942 01:21:58.960 --> 01:22:01.479 you next week. Thank you so much. Okay bye now. Thank you 943 01:22:01.600 --> 01:22:08.039 so much to Nick Pope for joining us once again. He's always awesome. 944 01:22:08.159 --> 01:22:13.199 It's always wonderful to have him on the show because the insight that he lends, 945 01:22:13.239 --> 01:22:17.359 having been kind of alue Elizondo in the UK, you know, someone 946 01:22:17.359 --> 01:22:23.199 who was on the inside and doing this UFO investigative work for the government and 947 01:22:23.239 --> 01:22:28.840 then also doing the public and as well, especially in these times, gives 948 01:22:28.920 --> 01:22:33.720 us invaluable insight into what is going on here so we can interpret all of 949 01:22:33.760 --> 01:22:40.279 these new revelations and new things that are happening with all of this. However, 950 01:22:40.600 --> 01:22:44.800 we're not done. I have a special bonus audio here. So I 951 01:22:44.840 --> 01:22:47.720 got a contact from Anthony Leapey and there are some things he wanted to share 952 01:22:47.840 --> 01:22:56.359 with us regarding Unidentified. Leapey as the executive producer and showrunner for Unidentified Inside 953 01:22:56.399 --> 01:23:01.520 America's UFO investigation. This is the show that is covering Tom Delongs to the 954 01:23:01.560 --> 01:23:09.239 Stars and also the ATIP organization within the Pentagon and of course the guy who 955 01:23:09.319 --> 01:23:13.560 used to run it lou Elizondo. The other guy that we talk about here 956 01:23:13.640 --> 01:23:16.159 is Chris Mellon who's part of To the Stars and also in the show. 957 01:23:16.520 --> 01:23:23.880 He is the guy who is the former United States Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense 958 01:23:24.359 --> 01:23:30.119 for Intelligence and then later for Security and Information Operations. So this is a 959 01:23:30.119 --> 01:23:34.840 guy who served as a staff director for the United States seni Senate Committee on 960 01:23:34.960 --> 01:23:41.279 Intelligence. So he's been in Washington sharing intelligence and information for a long time, 961 01:23:41.520 --> 01:23:44.720 which is really important when it comes to some of the topics that we're 962 01:23:44.720 --> 01:23:47.800 going to talk with Anthony about here. The other thing I wanted to remind 963 01:23:47.840 --> 01:23:51.279 you all is if you haven't seen the show or you're not, you don't 964 01:23:51.279 --> 01:23:58.359 remember this part episode three on unidentified Of course I've interviewed Chris Day or I'm 965 01:23:58.399 --> 01:24:01.640 sorry, Kevin Day. And Kevin Day was a radar operator, the supervisor 966 01:24:01.680 --> 01:24:06.439 on the nimits, and he had told them an area to go check out 967 01:24:06.680 --> 01:24:13.760 near where the NIMES encounter happened. That was essentially Guadalupe Island off the coast 968 01:24:13.840 --> 01:24:16.199 of Mexico, and that's where they go in episode three. So we'll talk 969 01:24:16.239 --> 01:24:21.439 about episode three and then some really important upcoming information that's coming up on Unidentified. 970 01:24:21.560 --> 01:24:28.199 So check out this interview with Anthony leape Alijandro. How are you good? 971 01:24:28.279 --> 01:24:32.640 How are you? I am great? Exciting times. It is really 972 01:24:32.680 --> 01:24:38.399 exciting. So first off, I want to apologize because I was informed, 973 01:24:38.399 --> 01:24:42.399 and I think it was by a French Canadian that I had been pronouncing your 974 01:24:42.479 --> 01:24:47.640 name wrong last time we talked, and it's Anthony leapey Wei, which is 975 01:24:47.720 --> 01:24:54.119 it's a very pretty name. Correct. I'm glad they corrected me. So 976 01:24:55.000 --> 01:24:57.920 before we talked, I don't think the show had aired yet, and now 977 01:24:57.960 --> 01:25:04.119 it has. What's the response been, like, it's been really incredible people, 978 01:25:05.600 --> 01:25:10.920 you know, just from the mainstream media catching on. I mean, 979 01:25:11.000 --> 01:25:17.760 the whole conversation almost overnight has radically changed. You know, you're seeing things 980 01:25:18.199 --> 01:25:24.359 like the Washington Post running opinion pieces saying, hey, we got to talk 981 01:25:24.399 --> 01:25:29.920 about UFOs, The Atlantic, Bloomberg. I mean, it's been it's been 982 01:25:29.960 --> 01:25:34.720 really wild. So it's very gratifying to see that. You know, we've 983 01:25:34.800 --> 01:25:39.800 kind of cracked open the conversation. That was really all we really wanted to 984 01:25:39.800 --> 01:25:45.000 do, and in some degree it's really exciting and it's so different. It's 985 01:25:45.159 --> 01:25:48.760 very surreal to watch it. First of all, to see so many items 986 01:25:48.800 --> 01:25:53.880 that I've written about coming to the screen, my most favorite stuff that I've 987 01:25:53.880 --> 01:25:58.239 looked into. But second of all, it spills over in a way that 988 01:25:58.319 --> 01:26:01.039 other shows don't. So for instance, and reality shows kind of have their 989 01:26:01.159 --> 01:26:09.159 followings, but they don't make the news like you just reference, and especially 990 01:26:09.159 --> 01:26:14.119 on really important topics, I mean policy when it comes to the Navy or 991 01:26:14.159 --> 01:26:17.399 some of these other items and articles that have popped up. Yeah, and 992 01:26:17.399 --> 01:26:20.359 that's kind of the turn that the series is going to be taking, and 993 01:26:20.399 --> 01:26:28.319 that this upcoming week is you're going to see the beginnings of a chain of 994 01:26:28.399 --> 01:26:36.079 events that again, this is wholly my unofficial opinion. I cannot prove the 995 01:26:36.159 --> 01:26:42.359 following but and I think people can make up their own minds. But the 996 01:26:42.520 --> 01:26:48.840 chain of events that you'll see that starts in this Friday's episode where Louel Zondo 997 01:26:49.119 --> 01:26:56.479 and retired Commander David Fraver go and meet a lieutenant named Lieutenant Ryan Graves, 998 01:26:57.439 --> 01:27:01.560 an Fateen Fighter pilot from Theodore Roosevelt, and he tells his story for the 999 01:27:01.600 --> 01:27:06.800 first time. The chain of events that you see unfold in that episode and 1000 01:27:06.800 --> 01:27:15.319 then in the following episodes I believe are directly related to both this larger conversation. 1001 01:27:15.439 --> 01:27:18.359 Obviously, we saw the New York that, you know, we introduced 1002 01:27:18.399 --> 01:27:21.880 them to the New York Times. They the New York Times wrote the big 1003 01:27:23.000 --> 01:27:27.920 article, but also the Navy changing their policy. I believe it was the 1004 01:27:27.960 --> 01:27:33.800 events of the Theodore Roosevelt that pushed the Navy. To many of your viewers 1005 01:27:34.279 --> 01:27:39.239 listeners probably know about this, but you know, in April of this year, 1006 01:27:39.319 --> 01:27:46.680 the Navy announced new guidelines for reporting of UFOs and essentially tacitly admitted that 1007 01:27:47.960 --> 01:27:56.439 what these things are are not our own, meaning a US military operation, 1008 01:27:59.079 --> 01:28:04.439 and that led to this weekend's sort of mind blowing blockbuster news that President Trump 1009 01:28:05.479 --> 01:28:14.680 has been briefed on these recent events and as he said, is going to 1010 01:28:14.680 --> 01:28:19.079 be monitoring it closely, whatever that means. But I believe that there is 1011 01:28:19.119 --> 01:28:25.880 a direct line and you'll see that unfold beginning this Friday, which is really 1012 01:28:25.920 --> 01:28:28.359 exciting. Of course, you have the President saying he said he had a 1013 01:28:28.399 --> 01:28:32.520 short brief so who knows how much information he got. Apparently not enough to 1014 01:28:32.520 --> 01:28:36.520 convince him that, you know, UFOs are a real thing, although he 1015 01:28:36.560 --> 01:28:41.880 defers to the pilots. However, you know, the conversation to the level 1016 01:28:41.920 --> 01:28:45.000 that the conversation is reached. We had in this article Task and Purpose, 1017 01:28:45.079 --> 01:28:49.960 where the Navy spokesperson kind of says, well, it could be Chinese Russians, 1018 01:28:50.000 --> 01:28:54.199 where we're still not sure, we're looking into it. But then the 1019 01:28:54.239 --> 01:28:57.119 Air Force, and this is the first time I've seen the Air Force kind 1020 01:28:57.119 --> 01:29:00.439 of pipe in on the conversation, says, well, we don't think it 1021 01:29:00.479 --> 01:29:03.399 is Russian or Chinese drones. I think we think that they wouldn't have the 1022 01:29:03.399 --> 01:29:09.880 capability, and you know the nature of the technology that would be used is 1023 01:29:09.880 --> 01:29:15.119 not what's demonstrated in these videos sort of thing. So it's really excited. 1024 01:29:15.319 --> 01:29:18.960 I mean, it's inspired this conversation between the Navy and UFO, or the 1025 01:29:19.039 --> 01:29:24.119 Navy and the Air Force about UFOs, that Air Force that I'm so glad 1026 01:29:24.199 --> 01:29:27.279 you brought that up. That Air Force statement, which actually hasn't gotten a 1027 01:29:27.279 --> 01:29:30.159 lot of attention outside of I think a lot of the UFO circles and the 1028 01:29:30.199 --> 01:29:36.600 military circles. That statement by that Air Force general was major's major general actually 1029 01:29:36.640 --> 01:29:41.880 I think you said it. But you know, that is a really interesting 1030 01:29:41.920 --> 01:29:45.039 piece of the puzzle because now you have the Navy saying it is not us. 1031 01:29:45.279 --> 01:29:53.039 They're using the term UAP, which, as Nick Pope has you know, 1032 01:29:53.159 --> 01:29:57.079 explained, that was a term that was developed when he was at the 1033 01:29:57.119 --> 01:30:03.159 Ministry of Defense in the UK to to sort of reframe and talk about UFOs 1034 01:30:03.159 --> 01:30:09.640 in a different way, but has become the parlance in the intelligence and military 1035 01:30:09.680 --> 01:30:15.439 community to refer to this phenomena that's unidentified aerial phenomena. So the fact that 1036 01:30:15.479 --> 01:30:18.920 the Navy is using that term publicly, we all know that they they had 1037 01:30:18.960 --> 01:30:23.199 been using it, you know, within the realm of ATIP et cetera. 1038 01:30:23.760 --> 01:30:28.600 But the fact that they're using it publicly and essentially are saying that these are 1039 01:30:28.640 --> 01:30:34.000 not our own They're we're not The Navy is saying we're not experiencing unknown craft 1040 01:30:34.239 --> 01:30:39.720 of our own making, obviously, and then you have the Air Force General 1041 01:30:39.760 --> 01:30:43.960 coming out and saying they don't believe that the Chinese or the Russians have the 1042 01:30:43.960 --> 01:30:47.520 capability. I mean, it really is by process of elimination. You end 1043 01:30:47.600 --> 01:30:54.920 up in a very interesting place now writing kind of along these lines, writing 1044 01:30:54.960 --> 01:30:59.039 about UFOs for so long, it's not surprising to me that there's all these 1045 01:30:59.079 --> 01:31:02.319 conspiracies kind of crop up. But what you've been demonstrating in the show is 1046 01:31:02.359 --> 01:31:06.720 more of a bottom up effort, and some of these guys, like Chris 1047 01:31:06.760 --> 01:31:11.399 Mellan has been working with Bob big Low and they've been working on trying to 1048 01:31:11.439 --> 01:31:15.479 get UFO serious for a long time. Of course, we never knew that 1049 01:31:15.560 --> 01:31:19.119 Loue Alisanda was behind the scenes doing this because that was secret for so long. 1050 01:31:19.560 --> 01:31:24.319 So you really get the sense. And I've asked all of these these 1051 01:31:24.359 --> 01:31:28.439 players, including some of the contractors like doctor Help put out for doctor Eric 1052 01:31:28.520 --> 01:31:30.840 Davis. You know, is that what this is an effort that you all 1053 01:31:30.920 --> 01:31:38.239 have done to try to get this information out, as opposed to this belief 1054 01:31:38.319 --> 01:31:43.199 among many that it's a top down that there's some kind of hidden hand that 1055 01:31:43.359 --> 01:31:46.159 is kind of controlling all of this. And maybe we've talked about this before, 1056 01:31:46.239 --> 01:31:50.640 but even though you've been presenting how this is all happening, it seems 1057 01:31:50.680 --> 01:31:56.000 like people are like, yeah, but still you know there's somebody behind the 1058 01:31:56.079 --> 01:32:00.000 scenes. How do you react or what is you know? I think, 1059 01:32:00.119 --> 01:32:02.800 I mean, I think Chris Mellon says this at one point in the show. 1060 01:32:02.920 --> 01:32:09.359 It's hard to prove and negative, I have no evidence that there is 1061 01:32:09.720 --> 01:32:15.079 someone pulling the strings behind Chris Mellon in terms of what he's doing, and 1062 01:32:15.159 --> 01:32:18.680 you will see that in this episode. I don't want to give too much 1063 01:32:18.720 --> 01:32:23.840 away what happens, but what you're going to see in this episode is the 1064 01:32:24.760 --> 01:32:35.479 process by which Lieutenant Graves' testimony comes to Washington's. That's what It's not just 1065 01:32:35.760 --> 01:32:42.479 us getting Lieutenant Graves and Lieutenant o'coin talking on the record. What you're going 1066 01:32:42.560 --> 01:32:47.119 to see is how lou and Chris are working behind the scenes to get people 1067 01:32:47.520 --> 01:32:53.359 aware of what's going on, because that's the thing that I really learned doing 1068 01:32:53.399 --> 01:32:56.119 this process. And I think it's hard for people, a lot of people 1069 01:32:56.159 --> 01:33:00.079 to understand there's no such thing as the US government. There's so many different 1070 01:33:00.560 --> 01:33:04.760 agencies, and there's so many different people, so many different people with different 1071 01:33:04.880 --> 01:33:10.560 levels of knowledge about what's going on here. And what you're going to see 1072 01:33:10.640 --> 01:33:13.960 in this episode and what you see unfold in the rest of the episodes is 1073 01:33:15.079 --> 01:33:19.239 Congress. The members of Congress who are now taking interest in this and unfortunately 1074 01:33:19.239 --> 01:33:24.960 I can't share the names, that's all you know been told to me off 1075 01:33:24.960 --> 01:33:30.479 the record, but the members of Congress who are now paying attention to this 1076 01:33:30.960 --> 01:33:33.159 you know, these guys were pretty out of the loop, it seems, 1077 01:33:33.279 --> 01:33:36.479 on what was going on, and a lot of people, you know, 1078 01:33:36.600 --> 01:33:42.159 I think a lot of people don't really realize what a TIP was. At 1079 01:33:42.239 --> 01:33:48.479 least as far as I can tell, was a very siloed, compartmentalized program. 1080 01:33:48.640 --> 01:33:53.520 This wasn't you know, people, Not that many people were aware of 1081 01:33:53.560 --> 01:33:57.960 what was going on. And a lot of these reports, you know, 1082 01:33:59.159 --> 01:34:03.399 and I think because of the politics of the chain of command, just you 1083 01:34:03.439 --> 01:34:05.840 know, they don't spread. I mean, a lot of people are you 1084 01:34:05.880 --> 01:34:10.159 know, talk about well, there were five thousand people in the USS Nimics, 1085 01:34:10.479 --> 01:34:14.479 and there's probably the same amount on the Theodore Roosevelt. But those reports 1086 01:34:14.479 --> 01:34:17.760 of those pilots, you know, those are very small cadra of dudes in 1087 01:34:17.800 --> 01:34:25.840 these squadrons. You know, I spoke to many pilots in Lieutenant Graves, 1088 01:34:25.880 --> 01:34:29.640 not many. I spoke to five other pilots. I don't want to overstate 1089 01:34:29.680 --> 01:34:34.039 it when I say I spoke to five other pilots in Lieutenant Graves squadron who 1090 01:34:34.079 --> 01:34:39.479 wouldn't go on camera. And you'll see actually some of that process by which 1091 01:34:40.600 --> 01:34:45.520 Elizondo was trying to get and we were in contact with the guy who was 1092 01:34:45.560 --> 01:34:50.560 the weapons systems operator whose voice you hear in the two Theodore Roosevelt videos. 1093 01:34:51.199 --> 01:34:55.600 He was going to come on camera and then kind of backed out. I 1094 01:34:55.680 --> 01:35:00.399 spoke to several other guys in that squadron, all of whom confirmed the basic 1095 01:35:00.840 --> 01:35:05.720 scope of that story, but not I also spoke to a higher up guy 1096 01:35:05.800 --> 01:35:10.399 on the Roosevelt, and he wasn't even this is a really interesting story. 1097 01:35:10.880 --> 01:35:16.880 I spoke to a guy who was a much higher ranking officer on the Roosevelt 1098 01:35:17.359 --> 01:35:23.439 who was not aware of the sightings that were going on over twenty fourteen. 1099 01:35:23.479 --> 01:35:28.239 In twenty fifteen, who was a former pilot, but he told us a 1100 01:35:28.279 --> 01:35:33.439 story off the record of an incident he had an earlier work up, which 1101 01:35:33.479 --> 01:35:38.640 is another term for an exercise, where he saw a craft that he couldn't 1102 01:35:38.640 --> 01:35:46.159 explain. So it's interesting who knows what is? You really have to kind 1103 01:35:46.159 --> 01:35:53.039 of understand how these ships work, and how you know the different parts of 1104 01:35:53.079 --> 01:35:57.039 the puzzle fit together, and where all these guys are physically on the ships, 1105 01:35:57.079 --> 01:36:00.199 and who they talked to. It appears to me that you know these 1106 01:36:00.239 --> 01:36:04.520 pilots pretty much. You know, they stick stick together, you know, 1107 01:36:05.119 --> 01:36:11.600 so anyway, it's a little of the sidebar, but it's it's a it's 1108 01:36:11.600 --> 01:36:15.159 actually it's a larger metaphor for when you look at what's going on inside the 1109 01:36:15.199 --> 01:36:21.840 Pentagon. Is this information, you know, is not widely known. You 1110 01:36:21.920 --> 01:36:26.279 hear a lot of people And here's what's really interesting, Audra, I have 1111 01:36:26.479 --> 01:36:30.239 we haven't. I haven't told anyone about this yet. But if you notice 1112 01:36:30.279 --> 01:36:33.560 at the end of our app every episode, now we have an email UH 1113 01:36:33.640 --> 01:36:41.880 info at unidentified dot tv where we UH have put out the word for UH 1114 01:36:42.000 --> 01:36:47.239 military personnel to contact us. We have gotten scores and scores of emails from 1115 01:36:47.279 --> 01:36:53.119 people, all with telling us their name and rank and where they were deployed, 1116 01:36:53.960 --> 01:36:59.920 many of whom are talking about similar instance that you UH see in the 1117 01:37:00.199 --> 01:37:06.000 series, and including several people who are backing up the stories of some of 1118 01:37:06.000 --> 01:37:11.039 the guys that you've seen and who you know we're on ships, even sending 1119 01:37:11.119 --> 01:37:15.920 us pictures with them with what is a couple of the guys who you see 1120 01:37:15.920 --> 01:37:20.239 in our show saying Hey, I know that guy, I know that story. 1121 01:37:20.239 --> 01:37:25.319 He's telling you the truth. So it's it's really I feel like we've 1122 01:37:25.399 --> 01:37:28.680 kind of, you know, crossed the rubicon on this story in a lot 1123 01:37:28.720 --> 01:37:32.840 of way, and it's we're opening up floodgates and we're sifting through this as 1124 01:37:32.840 --> 01:37:36.399 we go, and if other military people are listening to this, we we 1125 01:37:36.439 --> 01:37:40.880 are absolutely reading every single one of those emails and we're going to be following 1126 01:37:40.960 --> 01:37:44.399 up with people for the stories that we, you know, feel are interesting. 1127 01:37:44.760 --> 01:37:47.319 M hmm, yeah, I think I did it. Why reporting like 1128 01:37:47.359 --> 01:37:53.960 yours is important so you can see the investigation unfold because the what people assume 1129 01:37:54.920 --> 01:37:59.760 how things work is not necessarily the case and sometimes can even be counterintuitive, 1130 01:38:00.119 --> 01:38:02.880 and so it's a learning process to learn how you know this all happens, 1131 01:38:02.880 --> 01:38:08.079 and how you know this information can only be held by maybe just a handful 1132 01:38:08.119 --> 01:38:13.239 of people as opposed to you, you know, to the the masses or 1133 01:38:13.359 --> 01:38:16.760 large amounts of people like some people assume. Yeah, I mean that's really 1134 01:38:16.800 --> 01:38:24.479 where this the the series kind of takes a turn where we start you start 1135 01:38:24.560 --> 01:38:30.680 seeing how Lou and Chris are working behind the scenes. You know. One 1136 01:38:30.720 --> 01:38:34.840 of the interesting things that I think is is that people really need to understand 1137 01:38:34.840 --> 01:38:40.840 about Melon and Alizondo is these guys are not whistleblowers. People are trying to 1138 01:38:40.880 --> 01:38:45.239 kind of put them into that frame. These guys still have security clearances, 1139 01:38:45.640 --> 01:38:55.760 and they're still working very closely with people both in all say, you know, 1140 01:38:56.840 --> 01:39:02.680 the military executive and the intelligence community. They have very close connections and 1141 01:39:02.720 --> 01:39:09.159 I've seen that personally. I've been in meetings with them, with different members 1142 01:39:09.199 --> 01:39:15.319 of these different branches of government. Say so, I think it's and they're 1143 01:39:15.399 --> 01:39:17.520 open about that. I think people are trying, people are getting a little 1144 01:39:17.560 --> 01:39:21.640 bit. Maybe we didn't make that clear enough in the show that these guys 1145 01:39:21.640 --> 01:39:27.319 are not trying to say that they're they're they're not there. And that's what's 1146 01:39:27.359 --> 01:39:32.000 such a tricky part about this storytelling is there's a lot of information that they 1147 01:39:32.039 --> 01:39:36.800 can't tell me and they can't say on camera about what they've learned. And 1148 01:39:36.800 --> 01:39:43.520 that's why we're going out in the show to get these first hand accounts from 1149 01:39:43.880 --> 01:39:48.800 the pilots themselves, because these guys, you know, are still bound by 1150 01:39:48.800 --> 01:39:54.640 their security clearances. I do want to talk a little bit about episode three, 1151 01:39:55.279 --> 01:40:00.560 Guadalupe Island, because it was the island is so cool. Of course, 1152 01:40:00.079 --> 01:40:04.239 isn't it incredible? Yeah, Kong Island, you know, that's exactly 1153 01:40:04.239 --> 01:40:10.159 what I was thinking. Monster Island from Godzilla or something right. And so 1154 01:40:10.239 --> 01:40:14.760 you get there and you've got these coordinates from Kevin Day, the radar operator 1155 01:40:14.880 --> 01:40:16.960 supervisor and the nimics in two thousand and four, and he said this is 1156 01:40:17.000 --> 01:40:20.880 where he was getting the hits. And you get there. Were you surprised 1157 01:40:20.920 --> 01:40:28.000 when you started talking to the locals? You know, I have to say 1158 01:40:28.159 --> 01:40:32.760 it was. I was super as a producer and a showrunner, extremely worried 1159 01:40:32.880 --> 01:40:36.479 about that trip because it was a major you know, I don't, if 1160 01:40:36.479 --> 01:40:41.479 you know, about making television, the major expense to rent a boat right 1161 01:40:42.399 --> 01:40:46.680 in the world of documentary filmmaking. So it was a major sort of risk 1162 01:40:46.760 --> 01:40:48.920 we were taking. We're like, okay, we're gonna go down to Mexico. 1163 01:40:48.960 --> 01:40:51.960 We don't know what we're going to find. We teamed up with this 1164 01:40:53.079 --> 01:40:59.640 amazing local journalist whom Jorda Lebreja, who works out of Tijuana, kind of 1165 01:40:59.680 --> 01:41:04.039 guy mostly covers the cartel wars down there, but he's you know, spent, 1166 01:41:04.439 --> 01:41:10.000 he's knows in Sonata area. And he immediately when I first talked to 1167 01:41:10.079 --> 01:41:12.359 him and said, you know, will you hear about that all the time 1168 01:41:12.399 --> 01:41:15.560 down here? This is like it's on the new Their their sightings on the 1169 01:41:15.600 --> 01:41:21.640 news. There's like big rares ufo radio shows on the local radio in Baja 1170 01:41:21.680 --> 01:41:27.760 California, so it's like a very well known thing. Uh that ufo sightings 1171 01:41:27.800 --> 01:41:30.920 are kind of a thing down there. So we sent him ahead of time 1172 01:41:31.000 --> 01:41:38.479 down to to Incinata and just to to look around and talk to people. 1173 01:41:38.520 --> 01:41:43.039 And he said, man, we it was like you know, swinging a 1174 01:41:43.319 --> 01:41:45.079 cat. It was all I had to do is just start talking to people 1175 01:41:45.079 --> 01:41:50.600 on the street. And all these fishermen seem to have these stories and none 1176 01:41:50.680 --> 01:41:55.560 of them knew about the Nimits incident. They had that that was something that 1177 01:41:55.680 --> 01:41:59.119 you know, wasn't really widely reported and there, or at least, you 1178 01:41:59.159 --> 01:42:01.079 know, wasn't part of the world. They didn't really know much about it, 1179 01:42:01.119 --> 01:42:04.279 so they were really kind of tableau Rosa's. We went down there and 1180 01:42:04.319 --> 01:42:09.039 it was a you know, crazy experience. I wasn't there, to be 1181 01:42:09.119 --> 01:42:11.479 clear, my producers went down there. I get really ce sick, so 1182 01:42:11.520 --> 01:42:15.079 I would have died on that love really but yeah, I would not have 1183 01:42:15.119 --> 01:42:17.520 made it to Gualupe. But no, it was incredible, and I think 1184 01:42:17.600 --> 01:42:24.800 the most eerie part of the spine tingling part about it was the pilot that 1185 01:42:24.960 --> 01:42:30.640 pilot Ojeda, who basically you know, flies in those waters all the time. 1186 01:42:30.840 --> 01:42:36.439 His incident where he basically had a run in with the tic tac shaped 1187 01:42:36.720 --> 01:42:44.920 craft was in twenty fifteen, right eleven years after the Nieman's incident, and 1188 01:42:45.239 --> 01:42:48.159 when he told us, he basically gave us the approximate location, you know, 1189 01:42:48.199 --> 01:42:54.279 he said he was twenty three miles south of Enconnada, about ten miles 1190 01:42:54.319 --> 01:42:58.800 off the coast. When we kind of roughly plotted that on the map, 1191 01:42:59.479 --> 01:43:05.159 it was like I believe, I believe it was twenty miles away from where 1192 01:43:06.079 --> 01:43:13.079 the Fravr and his wingman intercepted the Tiktak in two thousand and four, which 1193 01:43:13.119 --> 01:43:15.840 when I told one of the pilots about that, they were like, that's 1194 01:43:15.880 --> 01:43:19.319 basically the same location. Our turning radius is like ten miles when we circle, 1195 01:43:19.479 --> 01:43:25.920 you know, holding pattern essentially, So eleven years later, he runs 1196 01:43:25.960 --> 01:43:30.039 into a craft doing the exact same thing, moving in that weird ticked like 1197 01:43:30.359 --> 01:43:35.399 you know how Fraverr described it, almost like a ping pong ball inside of 1198 01:43:35.399 --> 01:43:41.960 a glass cube, and then when it kind of became aware of him, 1199 01:43:42.000 --> 01:43:47.880 shot right across his nose. That's very very similar to what fravr described the 1200 01:43:47.960 --> 01:43:53.800 knimahs tic Tac doing, so that really blew my mind. And then when 1201 01:43:53.840 --> 01:43:59.560 we got out to Guadalupe where and that's the location where the chief radar operator 1202 01:43:59.600 --> 01:44:02.319 from the new that said they were all disappearing off his radar envelope. So 1203 01:44:02.359 --> 01:44:09.159 he wasn't sure whether they were physically disappearing or but that's where he was last 1204 01:44:09.359 --> 01:44:13.560 able to see them. But he said they were all moving in the southerly 1205 01:44:13.680 --> 01:44:17.560 location down the Pacific, and then all right to that one location, and 1206 01:44:17.600 --> 01:44:21.399 he gave us those Latin lungs. And when we got out there on the 1207 01:44:21.439 --> 01:44:27.119 boat, sure enough, all the fishermen who work out of this tiny little 1208 01:44:27.560 --> 01:44:33.600 fisherman's collective all said they'd see things there all the time, including one of 1209 01:44:33.640 --> 01:44:39.199 the world's most renowned great white shark you know scientists, who also said he 1210 01:44:39.199 --> 01:44:45.439 saw something. So it was it was pretty mind blowing to hear that piece 1211 01:44:45.479 --> 01:44:49.880 of the puzzle and to hear that that now if you look, and this 1212 01:44:49.920 --> 01:44:54.279 went a little bit quick in the show, but we plotted them all on 1213 01:44:54.319 --> 01:44:59.560 the map and also by date, and it went they were seeing them before 1214 01:45:00.000 --> 01:45:02.640 two thousand and four, and they were seeing them the most recent one was 1215 01:45:03.039 --> 01:45:06.680 it was the last year in twenty eighteen, so it's an ongoing thing. 1216 01:45:06.880 --> 01:45:11.680 Whatever these are, whether you know, you want to argue that there's some 1217 01:45:11.800 --> 01:45:16.039 kind of navy drone swarm that they just constantly have flying around there, you 1218 01:45:16.079 --> 01:45:20.319 know, I mean, there is interesting, mysterious stuff going on there. 1219 01:45:20.640 --> 01:45:28.399 The you know, Guadalupe Island is like this really interesting controlled environment where foreigners 1220 01:45:28.399 --> 01:45:31.279 are not. Actually, we tried very hard to get permission from the Mexican 1221 01:45:31.319 --> 01:45:35.840 government to be able to land on it and go shoot on shore, and 1222 01:45:35.920 --> 01:45:45.920 we couldn't get permission. They claimed that that was it. Well, I 1223 01:45:45.960 --> 01:45:48.800 think it has to do with the fact that, I mean, it's it's 1224 01:45:48.800 --> 01:45:53.000 hard to get a straight answer exactly. I mean, the official answer is 1225 01:45:53.039 --> 01:45:56.239 that it's a marine refuge. So it's sort of like a Galopogos type of 1226 01:45:56.279 --> 01:46:00.920 thing, right where they are trying to keep the footprint really low. So 1227 01:46:00.279 --> 01:46:04.000 the only people who have permission there are there's like a tiny little fishermen's collective 1228 01:46:04.439 --> 01:46:09.319 and they have like some you know, small shacks where they sleep and fish 1229 01:46:09.319 --> 01:46:11.279 off there for a couple of weeks at a time, and then they go 1230 01:46:11.359 --> 01:46:14.960 back and you know, they live in Baja. There's also a Mexican Weather 1231 01:46:15.159 --> 01:46:19.840 Army uh weather station on the island. But other than but I think it 1232 01:46:20.239 --> 01:46:24.680 mostly you know, I don't know what it really has to be. One 1233 01:46:24.720 --> 01:46:29.079 of the other theories we heard from from our Mexican context was it has to 1234 01:46:29.119 --> 01:46:33.520 do if there's no immigration on the on the shore there, so they there's 1235 01:46:33.560 --> 01:46:39.239 no one to check a passport. So if you're if you're coming into Mexico, 1236 01:46:39.319 --> 01:46:43.600 if it's their first time you're entering Mexican soil, there's no there's they 1237 01:46:43.600 --> 01:46:47.359 don't have any facilities to basically allow you into the country. If that makes 1238 01:46:47.399 --> 01:46:53.880 sense, and honestly is probably it also probably something it also has to do 1239 01:46:53.960 --> 01:46:57.159 with drugs, in the sense that they don't want people, you know, 1240 01:46:57.239 --> 01:47:00.840 if that is, that could be a great jump off point, you know 1241 01:47:00.920 --> 01:47:03.439 for people bringing drugs up there, and if people were kind of you know, 1242 01:47:03.640 --> 01:47:08.079 so they're trying to keep it as the footprint as minimal as possible. 1243 01:47:08.479 --> 01:47:12.000 Or you could go conspiracy theory. Right again, you can't prove a negative 1244 01:47:12.319 --> 01:47:15.000 that maybe it has to do with whatever you see flying over there and there's 1245 01:47:15.000 --> 01:47:21.279 some secret you know, underground Illuminati UFO based on the Island, right, 1246 01:47:21.720 --> 01:47:26.079 I mean whenever you which if you want to go there. There's can't argue 1247 01:47:26.560 --> 01:47:30.600 that we know there's not right, So and we're about it out of time. 1248 01:47:30.640 --> 01:47:33.800 But it's a good thing to end on because we're to be at Alien 1249 01:47:33.880 --> 01:47:36.960 Con you and I this weekend, and now we're going to hear a lot 1250 01:47:36.960 --> 01:47:42.680 of pretty wild theories. I think. Yeah, I'm so excited. I've 1251 01:47:42.720 --> 01:47:45.279 never been to any of these conferences, so I'm really excited to be able 1252 01:47:45.359 --> 01:47:49.960 to meet you in person and to learn a lot more and to talk more 1253 01:47:49.960 --> 01:47:55.600 about the show and answer any questions I can. Well, the show is 1254 01:47:55.720 --> 01:47:59.039 awesome. Thank you so much for coming on with me again for a few 1255 01:47:59.039 --> 01:48:02.159 minutes to talk about the the next couple of episodes. And I cannot tell 1256 01:48:02.199 --> 01:48:06.720 you how excited I get watching this show. It's so much fun, and 1257 01:48:06.760 --> 01:48:10.800 you guys have done a great job. All right, excellent, all right, 1258 01:48:10.880 --> 01:48:14.319 talkulater, talk to you later. Thank you so much to Anthony Lapey 1259 01:48:14.399 --> 01:48:16.479 for joining us and sharing some of the cool stuff that's going on with the 1260 01:48:16.520 --> 01:48:21.159 show Unidentified. Hopefully you're able to catch that that's every Friday on the History 1261 01:48:21.239 --> 01:48:26.279 Channel, really good stuff. You can also go to the History Channel website 1262 01:48:26.399 --> 01:48:30.399 and look up the Unidentified website. They've got some great articles there, just 1263 01:48:30.439 --> 01:48:32.039 like they were doing with Project blue Book. They have some cool stuff up 1264 01:48:32.079 --> 01:48:36.239 there. Also. Of course, what's great is a lot of what Lapey 1265 01:48:36.640 --> 01:48:42.039 mentioned. He even mentioned Nick Pope was the type of stuff that we're talking 1266 01:48:42.039 --> 01:48:45.800 with Nick about. Remember you can go visit Nick pope'side at nickpope dot Net. 1267 01:48:46.319 --> 01:48:49.760 Awesome show today. Thank you so much to everybody who joined us. 1268 01:48:49.760 --> 01:48:55.359 Thank you to Martin Willis for joining us with the news. I also ron 1269 01:48:55.720 --> 01:48:59.760 remind you we have some really cool things coming up with the UFO Congress. 1270 01:49:00.560 --> 01:49:02.880 James Fox is going to be speaking, and we just added to the list 1271 01:49:03.000 --> 01:49:08.960 Chuck Sukowski. He's got a brand new show called Alien Highway that is on 1272 01:49:09.039 --> 01:49:13.920 the Travel Channel and it covers Skinwalker Ranch related to all of this stuff that 1273 01:49:13.920 --> 01:49:16.159 we've been talking about. So they did a great job with that episode. 1274 01:49:16.239 --> 01:49:20.800 They had some weird stuff happened too, So go check out Alien Highway on 1275 01:49:20.920 --> 01:49:24.960 the Travel Channel. Also, if you haven't heard, of course, I've 1276 01:49:25.000 --> 01:49:29.359 interviewed Check Sukowski many times because we've been buddies for a very very long time. 1277 01:49:29.600 --> 01:49:31.680 But I'll also have him and the whole crew from Alien Highway on. 1278 01:49:32.000 --> 01:49:35.760 Hopefully sometime soon. We're working on that, so be sure to go to 1279 01:49:35.880 --> 01:49:40.960 ufocongress dot com so you can see Chuck, you can see James Fox, 1280 01:49:41.000 --> 01:49:44.680 you can see Kevin Day, all of these really cool people at the conference. 1281 01:49:44.680 --> 01:49:47.439 It's going to be a lot of fun. Go to ufocongress dot com, 1282 01:49:47.600 --> 01:49:53.039 remember ufocongress dot com, and you can find out more information about the 1283 01:49:53.079 --> 01:49:57.359 event and sign up soon. Especially get rooms because the rooms typically sell out. 1284 01:49:57.359 --> 01:50:00.720 We've got more rooms at this hotel than we've had at a pre hotel. 1285 01:50:00.039 --> 01:50:03.680 But sign up as soon as you can, and especially your room so 1286 01:50:03.720 --> 01:50:09.399 you don't run to be sure that you get a room in the host hotel. 1287 01:50:09.800 --> 01:50:13.439 But thank you all so much. Come say hi this weekend at alien 1288 01:50:13.520 --> 01:50:16.359 Con if you're there. I always love to say hi to listeners. In 1289 01:50:16.359 --> 01:50:20.239 fact that Phoenix move On, I met a couple more and hello to those 1290 01:50:20.279 --> 01:50:25.000 of you who said hi and Phoenix move on. Thank you all so much 1291 01:50:25.279 --> 01:50:29.520 for joining us this week. We'll have another great show next week. Until 1292 01:50:29.600 --> 01:51:19.720 next time, Audios moved tuttos. You are must