1 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:39,479 Ask What's up? Everybody? Welcome to another episode of Let's Ask Paul, 2 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:44,320 the podcast where you get to ask me anything you want about the National Electrical 3 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,479 Code and I'll do my best to answer your question, either in a podcast 4 00:00:47,679 --> 00:00:51,640 or an email. And all you've got to do is go to Paul Abernathy 5 00:00:51,719 --> 00:00:55,799 dot com. It's a pretty simple portal. You just put in your information 6 00:00:56,039 --> 00:01:00,600 and click that submit button and I will be ready in willing to answer your 7 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:07,439 electual code related questions. I also should mention everybody that's sparkymafia dot com is 8 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,599 launched. 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All right, we're gonna get it. 36 00:03:12,759 --> 00:03:15,400 A question today that was submitted, and some of this question I'm going to 37 00:03:15,439 --> 00:03:21,120 paraphrase because it is a really long question, but I'm going to kind of 38 00:03:21,159 --> 00:03:24,080 go over it in piece by piece and add my little ins and outs as 39 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:28,159 I go through this one. And so this is going to be a rather 40 00:03:28,319 --> 00:03:31,879 long one. Now I could summation this or add up right away. I 41 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:37,319 could give your answer to the individual who submitted this, but I'm not. 42 00:03:37,479 --> 00:03:38,599 I'm going to kind of read into it a little bit, and I want 43 00:03:38,639 --> 00:03:43,599 you to understand that this is my opinion. You may disagree, somebody out 44 00:03:43,599 --> 00:03:46,879 there may disagree. I'm just giving you my opinion and how I would enforce 45 00:03:46,919 --> 00:03:50,120 it. And if you want to call me a hack and say I'm wrong, 46 00:03:50,159 --> 00:03:54,159 that's fine, but that's just how I'm seeing it. And if we 47 00:03:54,199 --> 00:03:57,759 want it to be different. Then we need to change the language a little 48 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:02,360 bit better in how we do this or whatever the intent was. Okay, 49 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:06,039 So let me read this to you and then I will give some commentary as 50 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:10,560 we go. It says, Paul, I understand you're part of Code Making 51 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:15,560 Panel five that covers article two fifty, and I would appreciate your professional interpretation. 52 00:04:15,079 --> 00:04:20,680 Okay. So let me remind folks right up front, I am not 53 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:25,519 speaking on behalf of Code Panel five. I'm not speaking on behalf of any 54 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:30,079 members of Code Making Panel five. I'm not even speaking in the capacity of 55 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:34,600 Code Panel five. I'm not speaking for the Aluminium Association, who I represent 56 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:41,199 on Code Panel five. I am not speaking for anybody other than Paul when 57 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,839 I make my statements on this. Okay. How's that for a disclaimer. 58 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:47,560 Okay, So let me go on and get into this. It says, 59 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:58,199 installation includes parallel five hundred kc mill x ahhw dsh two aluminum conductors, two 60 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:02,720 sets for a total of six hundred and twenty ampiers of capacity. That's based 61 00:05:02,759 --> 00:05:06,000 on the seventy five degrees terminals. And then, by the way, if 62 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:10,519 you go look it up, five hundred kc meal aluminum is good for three 63 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,759 hundred and ten amps, so that's how he's running two sets. That's how 64 00:05:13,759 --> 00:05:18,160 he's getting six hundred and twenty three ten times two. Just in case you 65 00:05:18,199 --> 00:05:27,480 wanted to know, the insallation is single conductors obviously X bundled together per set 66 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:32,439 in a triad or delta whatever or a CoA diamond or whatever they're doing in 67 00:05:32,519 --> 00:05:38,639 a cable tray system. Okay, now, first observation. I'm assuming this 68 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:43,279 is an industrial establishment because you're running single insulated conductors and you're not really permitted 69 00:05:43,319 --> 00:05:46,639 to do that except in a industrial establishment. So we're going to assume that's 70 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,160 what it is. You can't just do that in commercial buildings just because there's 71 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,399 a cable tray there. You know it's designed for cables. So if you're 72 00:05:54,399 --> 00:05:59,319 gonna put single insulated conductors or single conductor cables, and remember three ninety two 73 00:06:00,319 --> 00:06:02,519 gives us these directions here, if that's what you're going to do, then 74 00:06:02,519 --> 00:06:06,279 we'll have to assume that this is an industrial establishment. So we'll just get 75 00:06:06,319 --> 00:06:10,399 that out of the way right away. There's a lot of people that think 76 00:06:10,439 --> 00:06:15,000 you can just put cable trays anywhere and then just run single insulated conductors in 77 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:20,959 it. In fact, it really wasn't permitted until I got the code changed 78 00:06:21,319 --> 00:06:26,120 to include single insulated conductors in there, because it used to say just single 79 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:31,279 conductor cables. And you know, there's a difference between single conductor cables and 80 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:35,800 single insulated conductors. So if that's what we meant, then we need to 81 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:40,680 clarify what we meant, and that did take place, so that's what the 82 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:44,439 code says now, so we're good to go. But it's still required to 83 00:06:44,439 --> 00:06:48,319 be in an industrial establishment to use those single insulated conductors. All right, 84 00:06:48,399 --> 00:06:53,240 let's go on a little bit here, so we know the installation so far. 85 00:06:53,399 --> 00:06:59,439 It says the installation includes two ought AWG excuse me, yeah too ought 86 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:06,560 XHHW DASH, two aluminum green insulated equipment ground conductors with each parallel set. 87 00:07:06,759 --> 00:07:12,040 Okay, so where does he get the two ought from. That's because even 88 00:07:12,079 --> 00:07:16,279 though the combined opacity of these two five hundreds is six point twenty, he's 89 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:21,399 basing. Originally, they based the size of the equipment grounding conductor based on 90 00:07:21,439 --> 00:07:25,600 the overcurrent device, which he says here was six hundred amps. I didn't 91 00:07:25,639 --> 00:07:27,879 read you that part, but he's got it in parentheses. He says six 92 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,240 hundred amps. So if you go to two fifty one twenty two and you 93 00:07:30,279 --> 00:07:33,720 look at the table, you'll see that for six hundred amps, it would 94 00:07:33,759 --> 00:07:38,279 be a two ought if it was aluminum, and that's what they ran. 95 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:43,560 They ran illuminum. So so far, so good. Here's where it kind 96 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,319 of gets squirrely a little bit for them. It says the final installation resulted 97 00:07:47,839 --> 00:07:54,319 in the upstream overcurrent protecting device being set at six twenty amps instead of six 98 00:07:54,399 --> 00:08:01,959 hundred, resulting in an undersized equipment ground conductor now require to be three ought 99 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:05,920 aluminum equipment ground and that is because it's now over six hundred. And you 100 00:08:05,959 --> 00:08:11,839 know that gap between six oh one and eight hundred means that the EGC or 101 00:08:11,879 --> 00:08:15,240 the equipment ground conductor now has to be sized to what it would be even 102 00:08:15,279 --> 00:08:18,720 if it was six hundred and one ant breaker, six hundred and five AM 103 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:22,000 whatever, if it's adjustable, it doesn't matter. At this point. It's 104 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:26,560 over six hundred, so it has to be sized what it would be for 105 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:28,279 an eight hundred, and that's why they jumped it up to a three OOT. 106 00:08:28,519 --> 00:08:33,679 That's how that table works. Okay, so they're in a pickle if 107 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:39,039 you will, because they've already run this and they got a two oot and 108 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,639 now they've got a six twenty ant breaker and that's going to put their equipment 109 00:08:41,799 --> 00:08:48,559 ground requirement at a three odd. So the easiest solution is, did you 110 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,519 do a load calculation? And if you did, maybe you dial that overcurrent 111 00:08:52,519 --> 00:08:54,960 device back to six hundred and you leave the two oots in there and you 112 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:58,080 just rock and roll. Ah. But again, so everybody wants to get 113 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:03,279 the maximum out of something. So you know that each conductor has through enterten 114 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,159 apps at six twenty total, so you just say, hey, we're going 115 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:11,679 to protect it that that okay, and assuming with this that we're not talking 116 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:16,720 about any continuous loads obviously because that would be a problem, but okay, 117 00:09:16,799 --> 00:09:18,919 so that's what we've got, and so they want and here it says the 118 00:09:20,039 --> 00:09:26,159 intention is to leave the upstream overcurrent protective device at the six twenty if at 119 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,759 all possible. Okay, so somebody, that's what they want. So we 120 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:33,360 have to solve this dilemma. So this is installed in a cable trace. 121 00:09:33,399 --> 00:09:39,519 So immediately what they've done is they have jumped to two fifty one twenty two 122 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:46,200 f one A and that's where they jump to, and I'm going to read 123 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,879 to you what it says. And again i'm reading you directly from what they 124 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,320 sent me. But for the flow of everything, yeah, I'm going to 125 00:09:54,399 --> 00:09:58,519 read it from the code because they're saying the exact same thing, but it's 126 00:09:58,759 --> 00:10:03,440 the way i'm seeing it on mobile device, and I'm reading this from my 127 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:09,480 box that all of these let's ask pause gets dumped into it, just it's 128 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:11,840 easier for me to read it from the code, So I'm going to read 129 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:18,519 it. So what he's talking about is two F one A. Now F 130 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:24,759 one A says single raceway or cable tray, auxiliary gutter or cable tray. 131 00:10:26,879 --> 00:10:33,279 So it says, if circuit conductors are connected in parallel in the same raceway, 132 00:10:33,039 --> 00:10:39,480 auxiliary gutter, or cable tray, a single wired type conductor shall be 133 00:10:39,519 --> 00:10:46,559 permitted as the equipment ground and conductor. So this rule is allowing you to 134 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:54,080 not run separate equipment ground and conductors with each set. And again, one 135 00:10:54,120 --> 00:11:01,080 of the importance of running conductors together is to reduce inductive reacting, so keeping 136 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:05,720 them closer together close proximity helps keep that low impedance and you don't get these 137 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,080 effects that it affected if you start separating these conductors out right. So again, 138 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,679 okay, so that's the general rule, right, that's what we're talking 139 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,320 about. So this allows me to say, well, you know what, 140 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:22,000 I will let you run one single wire type conductor that is properly sized. 141 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,159 We haven't read that part yet, but it'll tell you properly sized based on 142 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:28,399 whatever the overcurrent protected a device is. Now we have to understand that that 143 00:11:28,759 --> 00:11:33,799 larger conductor, it's not going to run exactly in close proximity to all of 144 00:11:33,799 --> 00:11:37,600 these sets, because again, how do you separate? How do you do 145 00:11:37,639 --> 00:11:39,559 that? You got one conductor, so at some point you just you put 146 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:45,559 it in the tray. The inductive reactants on that larger conductor, you're going 147 00:11:45,639 --> 00:11:50,799 to have a bit more impedance on it, but it is still more mass 148 00:11:50,279 --> 00:11:54,320 overall. Right, So we get it, and the code permits it, 149 00:11:54,519 --> 00:12:00,679 and it's permitting you to run that single wire type just a green slating conductor 150 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,360 if you want. Okay, I'm just for simplicity's sake, that's okay to 151 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,679 do. Although equipment granted, conducts can be bear as well. So but 152 00:12:07,799 --> 00:12:13,480 anyway, there you go. Now, the next part of question goes on. 153 00:12:13,039 --> 00:12:18,080 The code goes on and says, the wire type, equipment ground and 154 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:26,320 conductor shall be sized in accordance with two fifty one twenty two based on the 155 00:12:26,399 --> 00:12:31,799 overcurrent protected device for the feeder or branch circuit. Now you notice that this 156 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,399 sends you to two fifty dot one twenty two. It's not sending you to 157 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:41,960 table to fifty dot one twenty two. It's sending you to two fifty one 158 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:48,759 two. In it's in. It's the whole thing, the whole section of 159 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,559 one twenty two. So if you go back and you look at the general 160 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,679 requirements for two fifty one twenty two, it says, and that's at two 161 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:01,440 fifty one twenty two A, it says, copper aluminum or propper clad aluminum 162 00:13:01,919 --> 00:13:07,200 equipment grounding conductors of the wire type pay very specific of the wire type, 163 00:13:07,879 --> 00:13:15,000 shall not that's a mandatory language. Now, shall not be smaller than shown 164 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:20,279 in table two fifty one two. So it's basically saying the values that are 165 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:26,480 listed in two fifty out one twenty two. You cannot have an equipment grounding 166 00:13:26,519 --> 00:13:35,519 conductor that is smaller than what's in that table. So we're setting again. 167 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:37,480 They're setting again, ground rules here, okay, so just follow with me. 168 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:43,240 That's what it says. Now we go back down to F one a 169 00:13:43,399 --> 00:13:48,120 again and look at that, and it goes on to say again that incordance 170 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:52,039 with two fifty one to twenty two based on the overcurrent protective device for the 171 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:58,919 feeder or brand circuit. So whatever the size it's required in table two fifty 172 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:03,480 dot one twenty two, it can't be smaller than that. Now, that's 173 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:09,559 if you run that single So now the question is and I'm going to read 174 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,320 into his question because now he's going to get into why he's asking this question 175 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,080 already. So I just wanted to lay that groundwork for you. It says 176 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:24,519 the reference the code reference to single wire type conductor shall be permitted. The 177 00:14:24,879 --> 00:14:31,639 current installation utilizes two two aught aluminum okay, one for each set. Okay, 178 00:14:31,799 --> 00:14:35,480 so that's what's currently installed. We already covered that. It says, 179 00:14:35,559 --> 00:14:43,039 once terminated, the parallel conductors will provide the equivalent size greater than the required 180 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:48,559 three ought when comparing the conductor's circular mills. That is true, So a 181 00:14:48,759 --> 00:14:52,720 three out is one hundred and sixty seven eight hundred circular mills, and all 182 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:54,919 you gotta do is go to Chapter nine, Table eight. You can see 183 00:14:54,960 --> 00:15:01,360 that and the two oughts is one hundred and thirty three thousand, one hundred. 184 00:15:01,799 --> 00:15:05,399 But since we've got two of them, then it's going to be times 185 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,840 two. So that's a two hundred and sixty six thousand, two hundred circular 186 00:15:07,919 --> 00:15:13,159 mills, which is almost one hundred mills circular mills greater than the three odd. 187 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:16,720 And on the surface, you would say, well, this is okay, 188 00:15:18,039 --> 00:15:20,559 this, this has to be fine. I'll just parallel these two parallel 189 00:15:20,559 --> 00:15:24,960 equipment grounds is going to give me more than what's in the table. Well, 190 00:15:26,879 --> 00:15:31,159 the problem with that is we have nothing here that lets me do that, 191 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:39,039 because that would mean that I'm going to allow equipment grounding conductors that were 192 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:43,600 smaller that what's in the table to fifty out sixty six. Remember the general 193 00:15:43,679 --> 00:15:46,759 rule. The general rule up here in two fifty out one twenty two A. 194 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:54,000 It says that the copper will skip the other ones because they're not relevant 195 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:58,080 here. The copper, equipment ground and conductor of the wire type shall not 196 00:15:58,399 --> 00:16:06,600 be smaller then shown in table two fifty two period and the conductor size that's 197 00:16:06,639 --> 00:16:12,039 required in this table for our situation that six hundred and twenty amp overcurrent protective 198 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:19,639 device is going to be a one OT copper or a three hot aluminum. 199 00:16:21,799 --> 00:16:26,519 Okay, so we're at to one OT copper and at three out aluminum. 200 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:32,600 So we're doing aluminum. And I don't know if I said copper earlier for 201 00:16:32,679 --> 00:16:36,759 that whatever I was talking about, but this is this is all aluminum. 202 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,960 So again I think I said aluminum everywhere, but I was circular mill wise, 203 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,200 I might have said something about copper. But again, these are all 204 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,360 aluminum conductors. So for that six for that eight hundred amp overcurrent device, 205 00:16:48,399 --> 00:16:52,440 which is where you're going to be between the six hundred and eight hundred in 206 00:16:52,559 --> 00:16:56,440 that table two fifty one twenty two table, that's going to force us to 207 00:16:56,519 --> 00:17:07,599 be a three out ominum. So there's nothing in here that would allow me 208 00:17:07,759 --> 00:17:11,839 to parallel that. You know, I get it. People say, well, 209 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:18,440 isn't that with three ten dot G is all about paralleling, And yeah, 210 00:17:18,759 --> 00:17:23,000 when you're paralleling equipment grantic conductors, let's say you're doing in multiple raceways. 211 00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:29,039 If you're paralleling in multiple raceways, you have to have a properly sized 212 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,880 and some people will say full sized, but properly sized equipment grantic conductor in 213 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:38,920 each raceway, because if you have an issue in one of the raceways, 214 00:17:41,279 --> 00:17:45,440 then all the other phases are going to feed into that fault and it's going 215 00:17:45,519 --> 00:17:51,000 to magnify it and you still have to clear an overcurrent protective device. So 216 00:17:51,079 --> 00:17:56,680 we need the reliability of the size of that equipment grantic conductor. And now 217 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,680 the reason we run them in all raceways because if we didn't, we be 218 00:18:00,079 --> 00:18:06,960 reaching all kinds of rules with running all these conductors together and to reduce inductive 219 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:11,720 reactants that if we only put an equipment ground a conductor in one of the 220 00:18:11,839 --> 00:18:17,559 raceways, if there's a fault that raceway, you're going to get contribution from 221 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:22,319 all of the other phases into this fault that are associated with this fault in 222 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,160 parallel, and it's going to create more of an issue. And will we 223 00:18:25,279 --> 00:18:27,240 be able to clear the overcren device? Will that conductor hold up? Now? 224 00:18:27,279 --> 00:18:30,240 People have argued that it shouldn't be a problem, but you know what, 225 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:36,480 lack of evidence and obviously you haven't convinced a code panel yet to change 226 00:18:36,519 --> 00:18:41,279 any of that. So it would stand to reason if we're in separate raceways, 227 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,799 they would have to it has to be full sized. We'll use that 228 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,759 term in every raceway when it comes to the equipment ground conductor when installed in 229 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:57,559 a single raceway, and we're looking at F one A, I don't see 230 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:03,799 any permission. I see the only permission I have here. Okay, the 231 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:08,480 only permission I have here is that I'm able to run a single conductor size 232 00:19:08,519 --> 00:19:14,720 based on the overcurrent protective device. But I don't get any permission to basically 233 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:19,319 take a bunch of smaller conductors you with me, and add them together to 234 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:25,559 make up one big conductor. I don't get that. We're not talking amps 235 00:19:25,599 --> 00:19:32,880 here. We're trying to create a low impedance, effective ground fault current path 236 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:38,440 and be not affected by inductive reactants as much as possible, and run all 237 00:19:38,519 --> 00:19:42,759 of our ungrounded conductors, all of our grounded conductors, all of our if 238 00:19:42,799 --> 00:19:51,039 it's neutrals, that and equipment grounded conductors all together in close proximity. So 239 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:56,359 I don't see anything in here that would allow me to do that, even 240 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:03,240 if paralleling the you know, the equipment ground in order to use the circular 241 00:20:03,319 --> 00:20:07,119 mills and get larger. I don't see the permission to be able to do 242 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:11,000 that here. It may seem like common sense because if you go back and 243 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:15,039 look at three ten dot ten, because that's where that's where people are going 244 00:20:15,079 --> 00:20:18,519 to end up sending you, and they listen to this and they go, 245 00:20:18,839 --> 00:20:22,200 well, what about the paralleling rules, I'm allowed to parallel it. Well, 246 00:20:22,599 --> 00:20:29,759 you're not paralleling the equipment ground the same way or the same reason that 247 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:34,920 you're doing it for the phase conductors to get more current, you know, 248 00:20:36,079 --> 00:20:37,200 that type of thing, to be able to have more apps. You're not 249 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:41,000 doing that. This is all about the impedance and everything like that. So 250 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,079 that's not first off, it may sound like that, it may appear to 251 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,039 be kind of like that scenario, but that's not why you're doing it, 252 00:20:49,039 --> 00:20:53,640 all right, And there's a reason why when we're running equipment grounds in separate 253 00:20:53,759 --> 00:21:00,960 raceways that they have to be full sized. Okay, So at the end 254 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,200 of the day, when we go back and we look at the paralleling of 255 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:08,640 conductors under three ten dot ten G, you'll notice it in general it makes 256 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:14,799 no reference to equipment grounds. And that's because this one, basically the general 257 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:19,039 rule, is trying to make you aware that you can have parallel applications smaller 258 00:21:19,079 --> 00:21:23,279 than one O and that doesn't apply to the equipment ground. That just applies 259 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:29,880 to what the ungrounded, the grounded, and the neutral conductors. That limitation 260 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:36,640 in size does not apply to the equipment ground Okay, so that's first and 261 00:21:36,759 --> 00:21:41,440 foremost. But when it comes so that's the only issue with the G one 262 00:21:41,559 --> 00:21:45,519 right now, when you look at G two, that's just reminding you that 263 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:51,240 paralleled conductors that comprise of ungrounded, grounded, neutral conductors, equipment grounded conductors, 264 00:21:51,319 --> 00:21:56,000 or equipment bonding jumpers or supplies that mind jumpers shall comply with the following. 265 00:21:56,039 --> 00:21:59,519 And this is just reminding you of the characteristics that it has to follow 266 00:22:00,079 --> 00:22:07,359 a same length, same conductor material, same size of the circular mill conductors, 267 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:12,960 have the same insulation type, and be terminated in the same manner. 268 00:22:14,319 --> 00:22:18,440 Okay, that's all that that says. And then when you look at G 269 00:22:18,839 --> 00:22:22,480 five, which is the next thing they're going to say, it's here's exactly 270 00:22:22,559 --> 00:22:25,759 what it says. It says equipment grounding conductors. It says, where parallel 271 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,279 equipment ground and conductors are used, they shall be sized in accordance with two 272 00:22:32,559 --> 00:22:38,839 two. And so that in itself tells you that when you go back to 273 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:44,279 two fifty one twenty two. The general rules says that the equipment grounds have 274 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,759 to be sized based on table two fifty one twenty two. They doesn't give 275 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:56,359 any provision for me to use a bunch of smaller conductors and bring them together 276 00:22:56,519 --> 00:23:02,000 in parallel and create one larger conductor. Right. We get that permission for 277 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:06,039 the ungrounded conductor, hot conductor, we get that for the neutral conductor and 278 00:23:06,079 --> 00:23:08,319 ground and conductor, but we're not getting that permission for the equipment ground. 279 00:23:08,519 --> 00:23:12,079 And it's being done for different reasons, right. And the other way to 280 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:18,960 make that understood is it immediately goes in and says sectioned equipment ground conductors smaller 281 00:23:18,039 --> 00:23:25,839 than one not shall be permitted in multiconductor cables if the combined circular mills. 282 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:30,000 So that's where you have a cable that has three different smaller equipment grounds and 283 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:36,519 together their summation is equal to or greater than what the size would be required 284 00:23:37,079 --> 00:23:41,759 in two fifty out one two the table if it was one conductor in there. 285 00:23:41,279 --> 00:23:48,640 So, but this is specifically permitted for multi conductor cables. It's not 286 00:23:48,319 --> 00:23:55,079 stated that you can run a bunch of single equipment grounds and then they get 287 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:59,480 treated as one larger conductor when it comes to the equipment ground a conductor and 288 00:23:59,519 --> 00:24:03,519 being able to clear an overcurrent protected device. Okay, so that's not the 289 00:24:03,599 --> 00:24:07,759 permission that you're getting there, and I know that people want that to be 290 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,880 that way, and so that's what I told you earlier on. What I 291 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:18,400 struggle with is that you know, when I'm when I'm paralleling, I have 292 00:24:18,599 --> 00:24:23,839 to remember that it's all about the fault current and what it can handle. 293 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:30,960 And if I'm running one large, properly sized equipment ground and conductor, if 294 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,480 it's already properly sized to clear that overcurre device, then then that's fine. 295 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,640 But if I'm going to try to run two separate ones that are smaller, 296 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:45,759 if I have to rely on either one, then the problem with that is 297 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:52,759 because they are separated and you have an inductive reactance, and what happens during 298 00:24:52,799 --> 00:24:59,240 a fault condition, then again it's will they operate reliably? And there's a 299 00:24:59,319 --> 00:25:02,400 reason why we run them in parallel and separate raceways. They had to be 300 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:07,640 full sized based on whatever table two fifty that one twenty two is. So 301 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,960 it is my opinion, and again I go back and forth on this one, 302 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,480 and I serve on that panel, I go back and forth. I 303 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,480 do not see anywhere in there that gives me the permission to take a bunch 304 00:25:19,559 --> 00:25:26,519 of smaller equipment grounds parallel them in order to achieve a larger equipment ground. 305 00:25:26,839 --> 00:25:32,640 When we're paralleling with equipment grounds and they're full size at each raceway, that's 306 00:25:32,799 --> 00:25:37,759 not paralleling in our mind, like what we do for the hot conductors, 307 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,279 right, you know, like what they're doing they're putting two five hundreds together 308 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:48,279 to get six point twenty. We're not doing that with the equipment ground and 309 00:25:48,279 --> 00:25:52,680 conductors. So it's not the same principles that we're doing it. So that's 310 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,720 where you know, I struggle. I get the circular mills, I get 311 00:25:56,759 --> 00:26:02,279 it's going to be greater value, but I'm I'm just not there yet. 312 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,640 I just don't think that that's what the intent was here, and I think 313 00:26:04,759 --> 00:26:11,839 that we the general rule states that the equipment ground a conductor cannot be smaller 314 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,759 than what's in table two fifty dot one twenty two. So in my mind, 315 00:26:17,319 --> 00:26:21,839 what's happening is if you're paralleling them and they're smaller, then they're breaching 316 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,559 the requirements of two fifty down one twenty two. A that's how that's where 317 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:30,200 my mind goes to and hopefully that answers your question you wanted my opinion. 318 00:26:30,599 --> 00:26:34,119 There's others that may disagree with me. There's somebody out there that says, 319 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,839 oh, hell yeah, you can parallel the equipment grounds all the way down 320 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,079 if you want, you do you boo. That's not how I see it, 321 00:26:41,599 --> 00:26:45,400 And I can't speak for other members again of the code making panel, 322 00:26:45,799 --> 00:26:52,160 but that's how I see it. There are people that believe that you you 323 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,640 can parallel an equipment ground. I know for a fact that one of the 324 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:00,880 one well respected individual on the code panel, it's been around for decades. 325 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:04,960 I mean, he's been around forever. You know, he was probably writing 326 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:11,039 the code back when Moses was around, and he believes that you can effectively 327 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:17,599 clear the overcurrent device if you were to be able to take the you know, 328 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,799 the equipment grantic conductor in parallel it just like you can do hot conductors, 329 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,640 you know, resulting in smaller conductors and you get this summation from circular 330 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,599 mill. But he literally believes that's what you can do. But that is 331 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,839 not what the code says right now. So I guess what we always say 332 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,799 is if that's what your intent is, then we eagerly await your public input 333 00:27:40,039 --> 00:27:44,200 and you're going to have to justify it. And right now nobody's been able 334 00:27:44,279 --> 00:27:48,559 to take a change what's in table two fifty out one twenty two, and 335 00:27:48,839 --> 00:27:55,599 nobody's been able to get it changed because nobody has a substantiation. We know 336 00:27:55,799 --> 00:28:00,680 that currently if you size things based on two fifty to the table, then 337 00:28:00,759 --> 00:28:07,519 we can clear over current devices and it can be as safe condition or safe 338 00:28:07,519 --> 00:28:12,039 as as it can be about that anything else. You start playing with it 339 00:28:12,319 --> 00:28:15,759 and you're going to have to show the data. You're going to have to 340 00:28:15,799 --> 00:28:19,000 do it. And I don't think the data is there or people haven't put 341 00:28:19,039 --> 00:28:22,960 the data out there now all this, Why be remiss if I didn't remind 342 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,039 you that the raceway manufacturers and all that, even cable trace some of them 343 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:33,640 can be used as equipment ground and conductors and raceways and two fifty one eighteen 344 00:28:33,079 --> 00:28:36,599 they'll say, hey, screw all that. Just you know, if you 345 00:28:36,759 --> 00:28:38,960 use them metal raceways, you ain't got to worry about I know, I 346 00:28:40,119 --> 00:28:41,799 know, I know, I know all of this. It just gets complicated 347 00:28:41,839 --> 00:28:47,440 when you're talking about the wire type. Okay, equipment ground and conductor. 348 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:49,640 So I'd be remiss if I didn't mention those folks who'll say, hey, 349 00:28:49,759 --> 00:28:53,519 this is much better reason why you don't worry about the conductors. Right. 350 00:28:55,079 --> 00:28:57,319 So anyway, that's all I got for this episode. I hopefully that you 351 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,920 got something out of that. I didn't confuse. You're too bad. You 352 00:29:00,079 --> 00:29:03,759 heard my opinion. I'm gonna stick with it. I could be you know, 353 00:29:03,839 --> 00:29:06,039 people will say I'm wrong, but that wouldn't be the first time. 354 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,720 Hopefully you learn something out of this. But there's a reason why the code 355 00:29:10,759 --> 00:29:14,359 says it the way it says it. There's a reason why the general requirement 356 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:22,079 emphatically states that it cannot be smaller than what's in table two fifty one twenty 357 00:29:22,119 --> 00:29:27,880 two. So if we run equipment grounding conductors, even in parallel, they 358 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:33,480 would typically each one of them is considered an equipment grounding conductor, So we 359 00:29:33,599 --> 00:29:37,119 effectively could have one that is smaller than what's in table two fifty out one 360 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,920 twenty two, thus breaches the general rule. You get me all right, 361 00:29:42,319 --> 00:29:45,799 Hopefully you get something out of that. Folk. Until next time, stay 362 00:29:45,799 --> 00:29:48,839 safe, God bless and remember check out Sparky Mafia. Get some of that 363 00:29:49,039 --> 00:29:53,880 swag, and we've got great things coming over there, some very affordable education 364 00:29:55,079 --> 00:29:59,799 and other stuff, So make sure you request your hard hat sticker and we 365 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,200 engraved products coming very soon. Until next time, folks, stay safe, God bless