Ask What's up? Everybody? Welcome to another episode of Let's Ask Paul,
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A question today that was submitted, and some of this question I'm going to
paraphrase because it is a really long question, but I'm going to kind of
go over it in piece by piece and add my little ins and outs as
I go through this one. And so this is going to be a rather
long one. Now I could summation this or add up right away. I
could give your answer to the individual who submitted this, but I'm not.
I'm going to kind of read into it a little bit, and I want
you to understand that this is my opinion. You may disagree, somebody out
there may disagree. I'm just giving you my opinion and how I would enforce
it. And if you want to call me a hack and say I'm wrong,
that's fine, but that's just how I'm seeing it. And if we
want it to be different. Then we need to change the language a little
bit better in how we do this or whatever the intent was. Okay,
So let me read this to you and then I will give some commentary as
we go. It says, Paul, I understand you're part of Code Making
Panel five that covers article two fifty, and I would appreciate your professional interpretation.
Okay. So let me remind folks right up front, I am not
speaking on behalf of Code Panel five. I'm not speaking on behalf of any
members of Code Making Panel five. I'm not even speaking in the capacity of
Code Panel five. I'm not speaking for the Aluminium Association, who I represent
on Code Panel five. I am not speaking for anybody other than Paul when
I make my statements on this. Okay. How's that for a disclaimer.
Okay, So let me go on and get into this. It says,
installation includes parallel five hundred kc mill x ahhw dsh two aluminum conductors, two
sets for a total of six hundred and twenty ampiers of capacity. That's based
on the seventy five degrees terminals. And then, by the way, if
you go look it up, five hundred kc meal aluminum is good for three
hundred and ten amps, so that's how he's running two sets. That's how
he's getting six hundred and twenty three ten times two. Just in case you
wanted to know, the insallation is single conductors obviously X bundled together per set
in a triad or delta whatever or a CoA diamond or whatever they're doing in
a cable tray system. Okay, now, first observation. I'm assuming this
is an industrial establishment because you're running single insulated conductors and you're not really permitted
to do that except in a industrial establishment. So we're going to assume that's
what it is. You can't just do that in commercial buildings just because there's
a cable tray there. You know it's designed for cables. So if you're
gonna put single insulated conductors or single conductor cables, and remember three ninety two
gives us these directions here, if that's what you're going to do, then
we'll have to assume that this is an industrial establishment. So we'll just get
that out of the way right away. There's a lot of people that think
you can just put cable trays anywhere and then just run single insulated conductors in
it. In fact, it really wasn't permitted until I got the code changed
to include single insulated conductors in there, because it used to say just single
conductor cables. And you know, there's a difference between single conductor cables and
single insulated conductors. So if that's what we meant, then we need to
clarify what we meant, and that did take place, so that's what the
code says now, so we're good to go. But it's still required to
be in an industrial establishment to use those single insulated conductors. All right,
let's go on a little bit here, so we know the installation so far.
It says the installation includes two ought AWG excuse me, yeah too ought
XHHW DASH, two aluminum green insulated equipment ground conductors with each parallel set.
Okay, so where does he get the two ought from. That's because even
though the combined opacity of these two five hundreds is six point twenty, he's
basing. Originally, they based the size of the equipment grounding conductor based on
the overcurrent device, which he says here was six hundred amps. I didn't
read you that part, but he's got it in parentheses. He says six
hundred amps. So if you go to two fifty one twenty two and you
look at the table, you'll see that for six hundred amps, it would
be a two ought if it was aluminum, and that's what they ran.
They ran illuminum. So so far, so good. Here's where it kind
of gets squirrely a little bit for them. It says the final installation resulted
in the upstream overcurrent protecting device being set at six twenty amps instead of six
hundred, resulting in an undersized equipment ground conductor now require to be three ought
aluminum equipment ground and that is because it's now over six hundred. And you
know that gap between six oh one and eight hundred means that the EGC or
the equipment ground conductor now has to be sized to what it would be even
if it was six hundred and one ant breaker, six hundred and five AM
whatever, if it's adjustable, it doesn't matter. At this point. It's
over six hundred, so it has to be sized what it would be for
an eight hundred, and that's why they jumped it up to a three OOT.
That's how that table works. Okay, so they're in a pickle if
you will, because they've already run this and they got a two oot and
now they've got a six twenty ant breaker and that's going to put their equipment
ground requirement at a three odd. So the easiest solution is, did you
do a load calculation? And if you did, maybe you dial that overcurrent
device back to six hundred and you leave the two oots in there and you
just rock and roll. Ah. But again, so everybody wants to get
the maximum out of something. So you know that each conductor has through enterten
apps at six twenty total, so you just say, hey, we're going
to protect it that that okay, and assuming with this that we're not talking
about any continuous loads obviously because that would be a problem, but okay,
so that's what we've got, and so they want and here it says the
intention is to leave the upstream overcurrent protective device at the six twenty if at
all possible. Okay, so somebody, that's what they want. So we
have to solve this dilemma. So this is installed in a cable trace.
So immediately what they've done is they have jumped to two fifty one twenty two
f one A and that's where they jump to, and I'm going to read
to you what it says. And again i'm reading you directly from what they
sent me. But for the flow of everything, yeah, I'm going to
read it from the code because they're saying the exact same thing, but it's
the way i'm seeing it on mobile device, and I'm reading this from my
box that all of these let's ask pause gets dumped into it, just it's
easier for me to read it from the code, So I'm going to read
it. So what he's talking about is two F one A. Now F
one A says single raceway or cable tray, auxiliary gutter or cable tray.
So it says, if circuit conductors are connected in parallel in the same raceway,
auxiliary gutter, or cable tray, a single wired type conductor shall be
permitted as the equipment ground and conductor. So this rule is allowing you to
not run separate equipment ground and conductors with each set. And again, one
of the importance of running conductors together is to reduce inductive reacting, so keeping
them closer together close proximity helps keep that low impedance and you don't get these
effects that it affected if you start separating these conductors out right. So again,
okay, so that's the general rule, right, that's what we're talking
about. So this allows me to say, well, you know what,
I will let you run one single wire type conductor that is properly sized.
We haven't read that part yet, but it'll tell you properly sized based on
whatever the overcurrent protected a device is. Now we have to understand that that
larger conductor, it's not going to run exactly in close proximity to all of
these sets, because again, how do you separate? How do you do
that? You got one conductor, so at some point you just you put
it in the tray. The inductive reactants on that larger conductor, you're going
to have a bit more impedance on it, but it is still more mass
overall. Right, So we get it, and the code permits it,
and it's permitting you to run that single wire type just a green slating conductor
if you want. Okay, I'm just for simplicity's sake, that's okay to
do. Although equipment granted, conducts can be bear as well. So but
anyway, there you go. Now, the next part of question goes on.
The code goes on and says, the wire type, equipment ground and
conductor shall be sized in accordance with two fifty one twenty two based on the
overcurrent protected device for the feeder or branch circuit. Now you notice that this
sends you to two fifty dot one twenty two. It's not sending you to
table to fifty dot one twenty two. It's sending you to two fifty one
two. In it's in. It's the whole thing, the whole section of
one twenty two. So if you go back and you look at the general
requirements for two fifty one twenty two, it says, and that's at two
fifty one twenty two A, it says, copper aluminum or propper clad aluminum
equipment grounding conductors of the wire type pay very specific of the wire type,
shall not that's a mandatory language. Now, shall not be smaller than shown
in table two fifty one two. So it's basically saying the values that are
listed in two fifty out one twenty two. You cannot have an equipment grounding
conductor that is smaller than what's in that table. So we're setting again.
They're setting again, ground rules here, okay, so just follow with me.
That's what it says. Now we go back down to F one a
again and look at that, and it goes on to say again that incordance
with two fifty one to twenty two based on the overcurrent protective device for the
feeder or brand circuit. So whatever the size it's required in table two fifty
dot one twenty two, it can't be smaller than that. Now, that's
if you run that single So now the question is and I'm going to read
into his question because now he's going to get into why he's asking this question
already. So I just wanted to lay that groundwork for you. It says
the reference the code reference to single wire type conductor shall be permitted. The
current installation utilizes two two aught aluminum okay, one for each set. Okay,
so that's what's currently installed. We already covered that. It says,
once terminated, the parallel conductors will provide the equivalent size greater than the required
three ought when comparing the conductor's circular mills. That is true, So a
three out is one hundred and sixty seven eight hundred circular mills, and all
you gotta do is go to Chapter nine, Table eight. You can see
that and the two oughts is one hundred and thirty three thousand, one hundred.
But since we've got two of them, then it's going to be times
two. So that's a two hundred and sixty six thousand, two hundred circular
mills, which is almost one hundred mills circular mills greater than the three odd.
And on the surface, you would say, well, this is okay,
this, this has to be fine. I'll just parallel these two parallel
equipment grounds is going to give me more than what's in the table. Well,
the problem with that is we have nothing here that lets me do that,
because that would mean that I'm going to allow equipment grounding conductors that were
smaller that what's in the table to fifty out sixty six. Remember the general
rule. The general rule up here in two fifty out one twenty two A.
It says that the copper will skip the other ones because they're not relevant
here. The copper, equipment ground and conductor of the wire type shall not
be smaller then shown in table two fifty two period and the conductor size that's
required in this table for our situation that six hundred and twenty amp overcurrent protective
device is going to be a one OT copper or a three hot aluminum.
Okay, so we're at to one OT copper and at three out aluminum.
So we're doing aluminum. And I don't know if I said copper earlier for
that whatever I was talking about, but this is this is all aluminum.
So again I think I said aluminum everywhere, but I was circular mill wise,
I might have said something about copper. But again, these are all
aluminum conductors. So for that six for that eight hundred amp overcurrent device,
which is where you're going to be between the six hundred and eight hundred in
that table two fifty one twenty two table, that's going to force us to
be a three out ominum. So there's nothing in here that would allow me
to parallel that. You know, I get it. People say, well,
isn't that with three ten dot G is all about paralleling, And yeah,
when you're paralleling equipment grantic conductors, let's say you're doing in multiple raceways.
If you're paralleling in multiple raceways, you have to have a properly sized
and some people will say full sized, but properly sized equipment grantic conductor in
each raceway, because if you have an issue in one of the raceways,
then all the other phases are going to feed into that fault and it's going
to magnify it and you still have to clear an overcurrent protective device. So
we need the reliability of the size of that equipment grantic conductor. And now
the reason we run them in all raceways because if we didn't, we be
reaching all kinds of rules with running all these conductors together and to reduce inductive
reactants that if we only put an equipment ground a conductor in one of the
raceways, if there's a fault that raceway, you're going to get contribution from
all of the other phases into this fault that are associated with this fault in
parallel, and it's going to create more of an issue. And will we
be able to clear the overcren device? Will that conductor hold up? Now?
People have argued that it shouldn't be a problem, but you know what,
lack of evidence and obviously you haven't convinced a code panel yet to change
any of that. So it would stand to reason if we're in separate raceways,
they would have to it has to be full sized. We'll use that
term in every raceway when it comes to the equipment ground conductor when installed in
a single raceway, and we're looking at F one A, I don't see
any permission. I see the only permission I have here. Okay, the
only permission I have here is that I'm able to run a single conductor size
based on the overcurrent protective device. But I don't get any permission to basically
take a bunch of smaller conductors you with me, and add them together to
make up one big conductor. I don't get that. We're not talking amps
here. We're trying to create a low impedance, effective ground fault current path
and be not affected by inductive reactants as much as possible, and run all
of our ungrounded conductors, all of our grounded conductors, all of our if
it's neutrals, that and equipment grounded conductors all together in close proximity. So
I don't see anything in here that would allow me to do that, even
if paralleling the you know, the equipment ground in order to use the circular
mills and get larger. I don't see the permission to be able to do
that here. It may seem like common sense because if you go back and
look at three ten dot ten, because that's where that's where people are going
to end up sending you, and they listen to this and they go,
well, what about the paralleling rules, I'm allowed to parallel it. Well,
you're not paralleling the equipment ground the same way or the same reason that
you're doing it for the phase conductors to get more current, you know,
that type of thing, to be able to have more apps. You're not
doing that. This is all about the impedance and everything like that. So
that's not first off, it may sound like that, it may appear to
be kind of like that scenario, but that's not why you're doing it,
all right, And there's a reason why when we're running equipment grounds in separate
raceways that they have to be full sized. Okay, So at the end
of the day, when we go back and we look at the paralleling of
conductors under three ten dot ten G, you'll notice it in general it makes
no reference to equipment grounds. And that's because this one, basically the general
rule, is trying to make you aware that you can have parallel applications smaller
than one O and that doesn't apply to the equipment ground. That just applies
to what the ungrounded, the grounded, and the neutral conductors. That limitation
in size does not apply to the equipment ground Okay, so that's first and
foremost. But when it comes so that's the only issue with the G one
right now, when you look at G two, that's just reminding you that
paralleled conductors that comprise of ungrounded, grounded, neutral conductors, equipment grounded conductors,
or equipment bonding jumpers or supplies that mind jumpers shall comply with the following.
And this is just reminding you of the characteristics that it has to follow
a same length, same conductor material, same size of the circular mill conductors,
have the same insulation type, and be terminated in the same manner.
Okay, that's all that that says. And then when you look at G
five, which is the next thing they're going to say, it's here's exactly
what it says. It says equipment grounding conductors. It says, where parallel
equipment ground and conductors are used, they shall be sized in accordance with two
two. And so that in itself tells you that when you go back to
two fifty one twenty two. The general rules says that the equipment grounds have
to be sized based on table two fifty one twenty two. They doesn't give
any provision for me to use a bunch of smaller conductors and bring them together
in parallel and create one larger conductor. Right. We get that permission for
the ungrounded conductor, hot conductor, we get that for the neutral conductor and
ground and conductor, but we're not getting that permission for the equipment ground.
And it's being done for different reasons, right. And the other way to
make that understood is it immediately goes in and says sectioned equipment ground conductors smaller
than one not shall be permitted in multiconductor cables if the combined circular mills.
So that's where you have a cable that has three different smaller equipment grounds and
together their summation is equal to or greater than what the size would be required
in two fifty out one two the table if it was one conductor in there.
So, but this is specifically permitted for multi conductor cables. It's not
stated that you can run a bunch of single equipment grounds and then they get
treated as one larger conductor when it comes to the equipment ground a conductor and
being able to clear an overcurrent protected device. Okay, so that's not the
permission that you're getting there, and I know that people want that to be
that way, and so that's what I told you earlier on. What I
struggle with is that you know, when I'm when I'm paralleling, I have
to remember that it's all about the fault current and what it can handle.
And if I'm running one large, properly sized equipment ground and conductor, if
it's already properly sized to clear that overcurre device, then then that's fine.
But if I'm going to try to run two separate ones that are smaller,
if I have to rely on either one, then the problem with that is
because they are separated and you have an inductive reactance, and what happens during
a fault condition, then again it's will they operate reliably? And there's a
reason why we run them in parallel and separate raceways. They had to be
full sized based on whatever table two fifty that one twenty two is. So
it is my opinion, and again I go back and forth on this one,
and I serve on that panel, I go back and forth. I
do not see anywhere in there that gives me the permission to take a bunch
of smaller equipment grounds parallel them in order to achieve a larger equipment ground.
When we're paralleling with equipment grounds and they're full size at each raceway, that's
not paralleling in our mind, like what we do for the hot conductors,
right, you know, like what they're doing they're putting two five hundreds together
to get six point twenty. We're not doing that with the equipment ground and
conductors. So it's not the same principles that we're doing it. So that's
where you know, I struggle. I get the circular mills, I get
it's going to be greater value, but I'm I'm just not there yet.
I just don't think that that's what the intent was here, and I think
that we the general rule states that the equipment ground a conductor cannot be smaller
than what's in table two fifty dot one twenty two. So in my mind,
what's happening is if you're paralleling them and they're smaller, then they're breaching
the requirements of two fifty down one twenty two. A that's how that's where
my mind goes to and hopefully that answers your question you wanted my opinion.
There's others that may disagree with me. There's somebody out there that says,
oh, hell yeah, you can parallel the equipment grounds all the way down
if you want, you do you boo. That's not how I see it,
And I can't speak for other members again of the code making panel,
but that's how I see it. There are people that believe that you you
can parallel an equipment ground. I know for a fact that one of the
one well respected individual on the code panel, it's been around for decades.
I mean, he's been around forever. You know, he was probably writing
the code back when Moses was around, and he believes that you can effectively
clear the overcurrent device if you were to be able to take the you know,
the equipment grantic conductor in parallel it just like you can do hot conductors,
you know, resulting in smaller conductors and you get this summation from circular
mill. But he literally believes that's what you can do. But that is
not what the code says right now. So I guess what we always say
is if that's what your intent is, then we eagerly await your public input
and you're going to have to justify it. And right now nobody's been able
to take a change what's in table two fifty out one twenty two, and
nobody's been able to get it changed because nobody has a substantiation. We know
that currently if you size things based on two fifty to the table, then
we can clear over current devices and it can be as safe condition or safe
as as it can be about that anything else. You start playing with it
and you're going to have to show the data. You're going to have to
do it. And I don't think the data is there or people haven't put
the data out there now all this, Why be remiss if I didn't remind
you that the raceway manufacturers and all that, even cable trace some of them
can be used as equipment ground and conductors and raceways and two fifty one eighteen
they'll say, hey, screw all that. Just you know, if you
use them metal raceways, you ain't got to worry about I know, I
know, I know, I know all of this. It just gets complicated
when you're talking about the wire type. Okay, equipment ground and conductor.
So I'd be remiss if I didn't mention those folks who'll say, hey,
this is much better reason why you don't worry about the conductors. Right.
So anyway, that's all I got for this episode. I hopefully that you
got something out of that. I didn't confuse. You're too bad. You
heard my opinion. I'm gonna stick with it. I could be you know,
people will say I'm wrong, but that wouldn't be the first time.
Hopefully you learn something out of this. But there's a reason why the code
says it the way it says it. There's a reason why the general requirement
emphatically states that it cannot be smaller than what's in table two fifty one twenty
two. So if we run equipment grounding conductors, even in parallel, they
would typically each one of them is considered an equipment grounding conductor, So we
effectively could have one that is smaller than what's in table two fifty out one
twenty two, thus breaches the general rule. You get me all right,
Hopefully you get something out of that. Folk. Until next time, stay
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