1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,759 How'd you like to listen to dot net Rocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:09,880 Become a patron For just five dollars a month you get access to a private 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,400 RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month will 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:18,800 get you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. Sign up now 5 00:00:18,839 --> 00:00:24,199 at Patreon dot dot net rocks dot com. Hey Carlin Richard here. As 6 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:29,519 you may have heard, NDC is back offering their incredible in person conferences around 7 00:00:29,559 --> 00:00:33,960 the world, and we'd like to tell you about them. NDC Copenhagen is 8 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:39,600 happening August twenty seventh through the thirty first. Go to NDC Copenhagen dot com 9 00:00:39,799 --> 00:00:44,960 for more information. NDC Porto is happening October sixteenth through the twentieth. The 10 00:00:45,039 --> 00:00:50,280 Early Bird Discouver DC Porto ends July twenty first. Go to Dcporto dot com 11 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:55,600 to register and check out the full lineup of conferences at NDC Conferences dot com. 12 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,439 Hey there, this is Jeff Fritz, the purple bloa guy from Microsoft, 13 00:01:00,799 --> 00:01:06,000 letting you in on a little secret about my friend Carl Franklin. You 14 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:08,840 know, the guy who started dot net Rocks, the first podcast about dot 15 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:15,000 net in two thousand and two. The guy who's been teaching Blazer on YouTube 16 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,760 since twenty twenty. Yeah, that Carl Franklin. Well, Carl's joined up 17 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:23,760 with the folks from Code in a Castle to teach a week long hands on 18 00:01:23,879 --> 00:01:29,920 Blazer class. Are you ready to get this? At a castle slash villa 19 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:34,680 in Tuscany. It's sort of a luxury vacation with Blazer learning built in. 20 00:01:36,799 --> 00:01:42,000 Carl's calling it the Blazer master Class. You'll learn Blazer from the ground up, 21 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:48,879 finishing the week with the ability to build and deploy Blazer applications. Since 22 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,920 the training happens for only four hours in the morning over six days, you 23 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:57,359 can bring your significant other, your partner with you and you should right This 24 00:01:57,439 --> 00:02:02,200 part of Italy is absolutely beautiful. There's so much to see and do and 25 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:08,240 in Larion Marco from Code into Castle are organizing daily activities both at the castle 26 00:02:08,599 --> 00:02:13,759 and in the area. The castle is in the Marema, a less touristed 27 00:02:13,759 --> 00:02:19,800 region of Tuscany, offering both classic Tuscan hill country as well as easy access 28 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:24,520 to the Etruscan Riviera, with sublime local food, wine and olive oil around 29 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:30,319 every corner. Breakfast is included every day. There will be two communal dinners 30 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:35,199 at the castle book ending the experience, and most other meals and all activities 31 00:02:35,199 --> 00:02:39,479 are included. And did I mention you'll learn Blazer in person from Carl Franklin. 32 00:02:40,199 --> 00:02:45,319 Listen, space is limited and for very good reason. This is quality 33 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:52,000 training in a beautiful setting. Go to code in Acastle dot com slash Blazer 34 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:58,879 twenty twenty three that's bla z o R two zero two three to take advantage 35 00:02:58,879 --> 00:03:04,199 of this amazing opportun tunity to join Carl in Tuscany for an unforgettable week of 36 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:23,439 La dolce vita while advancing your programming skills in this important new technology. Hey 37 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:27,759 guess what, it's dot net rocks again. I'm Carl Franklin, and I'm 38 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,400 Richard Cabell and Dennis Stouman is here. We're gonna be talking about all sorts 39 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:37,120 of cool stuff but affluent assertions, I believe. But how are you, 40 00:03:37,199 --> 00:03:39,520 my friend, doing well? You know what we're doing. We're selling house, 41 00:03:39,879 --> 00:03:44,080 no kidding, Yeah, it's time the house in town, not the 42 00:03:44,639 --> 00:03:47,199 city, each house. Wow. The house we selected because it was near 43 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,840 good schools and then you know, built it and all that stuff. But 44 00:03:50,879 --> 00:03:53,479 it's been twenty five years, and yeah, you know, the girls are 45 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,319 growing gone and it's time to downsize a bit, and I want to spend 46 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,280 more time on the coast. That's good. Do you and at the host 47 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,919 house, did you add like the waterfall tub filling and the Japanese toilet sea 48 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,080 and all the things I remember about your house? Yeah? No, no, 49 00:04:09,039 --> 00:04:12,560 no, that'll come later. In fact, as soon as we started 50 00:04:12,599 --> 00:04:15,800 having the conversation about selling the house, who's already a conversation about building something 51 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,759 new. So I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see those kirts of 52 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:23,600 features up here. Do you have land up on the coast house to build 53 00:04:23,759 --> 00:04:26,240 something small that you could actually live in? Two and a half acres? 54 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,279 Yeah? Yeah, good, we have space. That's cool. Yeah, 55 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,920 I love it. Make a tree house because it's surrounded by woods, right 56 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,319 yeah, yeah, we're fully in the forest. But you know, I 57 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,879 think that'd be so cool. I think I need something that can actually get 58 00:04:38,879 --> 00:04:41,800 a permit for, and that's going to be a little tricky, so well 59 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,120 permit schmermit. Yeah, what is this whole safety thing? What do you 60 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,560 you know? Yeah? All right, who does that? Who does that? 61 00:04:49,639 --> 00:04:53,240 All? Right, let's roll the crazy music, because I have something 62 00:04:53,240 --> 00:05:02,639 cool for you for a better no framework awesome? All right, man, 63 00:05:02,639 --> 00:05:08,519 when you got well about trying to do the math here this is coming out 64 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:14,439 on July thirteenth, and a good month and a half ago, I did 65 00:05:14,959 --> 00:05:18,800 a Blazer Train episode called Blazer is the New forty two. Okay, and 66 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:23,399 those of you who have read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy know exactly what I'm 67 00:05:23,439 --> 00:05:27,439 talking about. A year old. Yes, I'm old. Yeah, I 68 00:05:27,439 --> 00:05:30,519 remember when I was forty two and I thought I was the answer to everything. 69 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:35,199 But apparently apparently I was wrong. Yeah, aren't we all? Well 70 00:05:35,199 --> 00:05:40,399 anyway, So the whole idea is that, you know, Blazer is a 71 00:05:40,399 --> 00:05:44,519 component model can go anywhere. Now it can It can not only go to 72 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,639 well we know it goes to websites in browsers, but it can go to 73 00:05:49,319 --> 00:05:54,399 you can use it for MAUI, so it can go to iOS applications and 74 00:05:54,399 --> 00:05:59,120 Android applications and if you're crazy, ties in TVs and things like that, 75 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,839 macdesktop apps, but it can all you can also build WPF and Windows Forms 76 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:10,519 apps with it, and so that that's the whole ideas that you know, 77 00:06:11,399 --> 00:06:15,800 the whole promise of Zammal was that it would be this ubiquitous thing, and 78 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,680 and it turned out to be completely untrue. There's at least seven or eight 79 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:24,720 flavors of Zammal they used to be anyway. I mean, that's slowly cleaning 80 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,759 that up. There were there were many forces at work there that cause that 81 00:06:28,199 --> 00:06:31,399 fragmentation, right. But if you think of what Microsoft's job is to with 82 00:06:31,519 --> 00:06:39,399 Zamal, it's to implement the behavior and look and feel of what Zamil does 83 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:44,959 uh consistently on every platform. And it's not there yet. I'm just I'm 84 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:46,879 telling you the truth. It's even with Maui it's not there. Yeah, 85 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,800 they never got to that part of the mission. But clearly that is the 86 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:54,879 effort of products like Maui's finally after all these years, Yeah, that is 87 00:06:54,879 --> 00:06:59,560 the effort. But but a similar effort was done with the browser manufacturers, 88 00:06:59,759 --> 00:07:05,240 right to make sure that Htmail CSS and JavaScript performed and looked and acted the 89 00:07:05,439 --> 00:07:10,879 same on all of the browsers. And they've pretty much and that didn't work 90 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:15,199 either. Well, okay, well they're a lot farther along than then Microsoft, 91 00:07:15,279 --> 00:07:18,759 as exampled, they're having to do by themselves what all these browser manufacturers 92 00:07:18,759 --> 00:07:21,800 had to do with the browser. Yeah, one of would argue, that's 93 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:27,879 an easier problem than running if safari code. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 94 00:07:27,959 --> 00:07:32,560 So anyway, it's a Blazer Train episode and the link is to a GitHub 95 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,959 repo that explains everything, gives you code that you can copy and paste and 96 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:40,439 cut and paste into all these different projects. It's cool, Yeah, it's 97 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:44,120 fun. Yeah, Blazery is the new forty two. Yeah, Blazer's new 98 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,560 forty two. So who's talking to us? Richard grabbed commonhov A show seventeen 99 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,920 thirty five. We get back in twenty twenty one with our friend Ian Cooper. 100 00:07:51,319 --> 00:07:56,480 We're talking about test driven development and testing as a whole, and actually 101 00:07:56,519 --> 00:07:59,439 lots of good comments on this show. Was one of those powerful conversations, 102 00:07:59,439 --> 00:08:03,600 and Ryan said this. He says, what to test is a strategic topic. 103 00:08:03,879 --> 00:08:07,680 It depends on the risk profile. What is the cost of failure to 104 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:11,839 the business that is financial, reputational, or opportunity? Is the code likely 105 00:08:11,879 --> 00:08:15,279 to be extended? Who'll be working with this code so many months from now? 106 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,360 When I'm writing tests, I'm thinking how much production code can I get 107 00:08:18,399 --> 00:08:24,079 away with while keeping the sweet fast and comprehensible. If I get it right, 108 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,279 it hits a sweet spot where I have a high level test API that 109 00:08:26,319 --> 00:08:31,799 facilitates implementing changes as things evolve. Only certain types of modules get the full 110 00:08:31,799 --> 00:08:35,919 treatment business critical, complicated, dynamic requirements. Setting up this kind of test 111 00:08:35,919 --> 00:08:39,080 suite short and takes a lot of effort, but it pays off in a 112 00:08:39,159 --> 00:08:43,240 long run. And I also appreciate this sort of point here that if I 113 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,519 know this is going to continue to be worked on and likely not by me, 114 00:08:46,279 --> 00:08:50,320 then build out a big test framework to make it easy for the folks 115 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,159 to handle it. But don't write tests for absolutely everything. And it's hard 116 00:08:54,159 --> 00:08:56,879 to argue about that. You know, we get a little fixated on one 117 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:01,039 hundred percent test coverage thing, which is essentially to be strategic about thinking about 118 00:09:01,039 --> 00:09:05,080 you're testing him. I think it's smart, Ryan, good thinking. So 119 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:07,840 Ryan, thank you so much your comment, and a copy of Ustic Coby 120 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:09,960 is on its way to you. And if you'd like a copy Abustic co 121 00:09:09,039 --> 00:09:11,919 buy, write a comment on the website at dot net rocks dot com or 122 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,759 on the facebooks. We publish every show there, and if you comment there 123 00:09:15,759 --> 00:09:18,080 and everybody in the show, we'll like your copy of mused to go buy 124 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:22,240 and you should definitely think about following us on macedon. Twitter's fine, but 125 00:09:22,159 --> 00:09:26,320 the fun stuff and the cool kids are over Macedon. I'm at Carl Franklin 126 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:31,759 at TecHub dot social, and I'm rich Campbell at Mastodon dot social and send 127 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,639 us a too. We'll be waiting up for it. M mmm. So 128 00:09:35,919 --> 00:09:39,960 let's bring on Dennis Duman. He's a Microsoft MVP and principal consultant at Dutch 129 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:46,960 Microsoft consultancy firm of Vivas Solutions. We have twenty six years of experience under 130 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:52,440 his belt as a software architect and lead developer. He specializes in designing full 131 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,360 stack enterprise solutions based on dot net, as well as providing coaching on all 132 00:09:56,399 --> 00:10:01,960 aspects of designing, building, document deploying, and maintaining software systems in an 133 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:07,080 agile world. He is the author of Fluent Assertions, an assertion library to 134 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:13,480 make your unit tests look great. Also Liquid Projections, a set of libraries 135 00:10:13,519 --> 00:10:18,320 for building events sourcing projections. And he's been maintaining coding guidelines for c Sharp 136 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:20,919 since two thousand and one. Hey, Richard, that's a whole year before 137 00:10:20,919 --> 00:10:26,960 our podcast started. That's before c Sharp shipped. Yeah. You can find 138 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,159 Dennis on Twitter, Mastodon, and Blue Sky. A Blue Sky is the 139 00:10:31,159 --> 00:10:35,200 one I just learned about yesterday, right, that's right. Yeah, okay, 140 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,399 Well, welcome Dennis. Thank you. It's an honor to be here. 141 00:10:37,399 --> 00:10:41,759 Finally. Oh, I'm looking forward to a great conversation. You've certainly 142 00:10:41,759 --> 00:10:45,759 got a lot of experience. You're you're old like us, not quite as 143 00:10:45,799 --> 00:10:48,080 old as old, almost as old. Yeah, true, Yeah, we 144 00:10:48,159 --> 00:10:52,039 had that discussion before we started, exactly. That was pretty awesome to be 145 00:10:52,039 --> 00:10:56,240 here, and I'm looking forward to what you're being exchanging here. Ye, 146 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:01,159 So fluent assertions. This is a testing work, not exactly. It's not 147 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,039 like a competition to actually unit or an unit. And don't start me talking 148 00:11:05,039 --> 00:11:09,240 about amostest. No, it's a it's a very it's it's basically a tiny 149 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:16,440 library to make your assertions look nicer. It's basically fluent affluent syntax. For 150 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:24,279 you know, some variable should be equivalent to some object graph or an action 151 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:28,440 or funk in c shops should throw an exception or an a sync exception. 152 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:33,879 That's cool. Stuff like that. It's very simple, honestly, but for 153 00:11:33,919 --> 00:11:37,759 some reason it got a lot of traction over the last twelve thirty years. 154 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:39,840 Well, it's it's more accurate than what we're doing now, you know, 155 00:11:39,879 --> 00:11:43,840 which is naming testing methods, and what if you get those names wrong? 156 00:11:43,879 --> 00:11:48,840 What if the test changes of what it does and now you're going to change 157 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,360 the name of it. You know, It's it makes sense, although that 158 00:11:52,399 --> 00:11:56,360 doesn't replace good naming, yes, because honestly, I also believe that. 159 00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:00,559 I mean, I'm a big fan of test driven development and which Ward was 160 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,639 just talking about one hundred percent, which are completely agree. It's it's completely 161 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,279 unrealistic and it's it's it's a goal that you don't want to achieve. I 162 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:11,879 would say, if you actually practice stiff development, getting ninety percent should be 163 00:12:11,879 --> 00:12:18,799 pretty trivial. Flu Dessertion itself has ninety seven percent, but that's not that 164 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,840 difficult. A very simple library with a simple API doesn't have complicated dependencies like 165 00:12:22,919 --> 00:12:28,720 real world codebases have, so it's completely obvious, and we use mutation testing 166 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,240 and all kinds of stuff to really make it fully covered. But it's just 167 00:12:31,279 --> 00:12:35,159 because we want to be able to ship any release without even doing any manual 168 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:39,840 testing, which we still don't do. Honestly, he's sticking with automated testing 169 00:12:39,879 --> 00:12:41,840 as much as possible. Yes, I mean the other part around this, 170 00:12:41,919 --> 00:12:46,159 and I think this is associated with what Ryan was saying. Was it like 171 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:52,840 those last few percentage points are also tested or perpetually breaking, Like it's code 172 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,120 that was growlly in the first place, so it's hard to test, and 173 00:12:56,159 --> 00:12:58,039 so as changes are made to it, you're having tough time with the testing. 174 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:03,279 Even though it's maybe functional, it's just the testing framework around it isn't 175 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:07,879 happy. True. On the other hand, I also see that the technology 176 00:13:07,919 --> 00:13:11,759 that we have makes it a lot easier to test things like remember like in 177 00:13:11,799 --> 00:13:15,360 the past when we did a speed on net controllers, and I still see 178 00:13:15,399 --> 00:13:18,559 that. By the way, these people actually create a test that creates an 179 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:22,279 instance of that controller class and then calls the methods, which for me is 180 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:26,480 like, wait a second, that's an implementation detail. So now actually it's 181 00:13:26,519 --> 00:13:28,600 not even now. We even had that with Owen. If you remember that 182 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:33,840 from the past, sure, yeah, test host build or a web host 183 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:35,919 build, always forget which one it is. You can now test your entire 184 00:13:37,159 --> 00:13:41,559 HTP pipeline, you know, send HTOP requests to your test or to your 185 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:46,759 actual code which includes everything even your startup class and all your d I registrations. 186 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:50,480 So it becomes a lot easier to do. And if I make comment 187 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:54,960 on that as well, if you look at other areas where typically people were 188 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:58,279 struggling to get full test coverage, was stuff interacts interacts with the database, 189 00:14:00,159 --> 00:14:03,320 right, I mean, yeah, we were all taught I don't know, 190 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:07,440 twenty years ago. Isolate the ugly stuff, you know, create repository abstractions 191 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:13,440 and stuff like that, and then people start creating tests for classes that barely 192 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,759 do anything. Right now, we can just run sequel server or something in 193 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:18,840 a Linux container and you know, start up to go. You have test 194 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,559 containers for the net, which is a beautiful little library as well. You 195 00:14:22,639 --> 00:14:26,440 start Sequel serving your test suite, you run your tests, even create test 196 00:14:26,519 --> 00:14:30,840 data in the database, you interact with it. You you even cover all 197 00:14:30,879 --> 00:14:35,360 your ef core or whatever orm you prefer to use. So it becomes easier, 198 00:14:35,559 --> 00:14:37,360 a lot easier these days. To get to that point. It's not 199 00:14:37,399 --> 00:14:41,840 a goal, it's a means to an end, right, but yeah, 200 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,320 it does. It's interesting. Do you make that point that what's making is 201 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,600 a lot more feasible is better and better tooling exactly? Yeah, Yeah, 202 00:14:48,759 --> 00:14:52,159 So if you ever run into a case where something just couldn't be tested, 203 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,960 that could couldn't be re architected so it could be tested. No, that's 204 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:01,519 a good question. But the thing is one of my one of my jobs 205 00:15:01,639 --> 00:15:07,679 is to actually help clients with legacy codebases to make it more testable. Right, 206 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:11,879 And that actually means that I'm looking at that code base and trying to 207 00:15:11,879 --> 00:15:16,679 figure out how can we make that more testable. One of the ways that 208 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,759 I usually start with, and I didn't come up with idea myself. Michael 209 00:15:20,759 --> 00:15:24,000 Fellows came up with that idea in his brilliant book. I think it's called 210 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:28,759 working effectively with legacy code y characteristics tests. You know, you basically create 211 00:15:28,799 --> 00:15:33,320 a bunch of very ugly, unmaintainable you know you don't care about that, 212 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:37,799 that suite that just repeats the behavior of the current system, including a database 213 00:15:37,879 --> 00:15:43,159 or whatever you have which is your temporary safety net. And then you start 214 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,679 to identify, you know, pieces of your codebase that you can refact them. 215 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:52,120 Maybe you can identify things that are being reused, you know that shouldn't 216 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:56,159 be reused. Maybe by duplicating some code you can actually remove some coupling and 217 00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:00,840 a code base, maybe you can imply things. I mean, I know 218 00:16:00,919 --> 00:16:03,519 that solid is a term that can be debate about. It's a lot of 219 00:16:03,519 --> 00:16:08,679 people that have opinions about that. But the the dependency in version principle actually 220 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,679 like it. It's a nice tool and it's nothing more than that. A 221 00:16:11,679 --> 00:16:15,759 tool that helps me the couple you know, parts of the code base from 222 00:16:15,759 --> 00:16:18,559 each other. But it's a big investment. It's it's you know, I 223 00:16:18,679 --> 00:16:22,720 use tools to create an architecture diagram of the code based trying to understand how 224 00:16:22,759 --> 00:16:26,120 things is, how things are connected. I look at the dependency graph, 225 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:32,200 you're basically what is the word unraveling or and I think the word you want 226 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:37,919 is unfu I wasn't sure you can actually say that. You could say whatever 227 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,559 you want, it'll be believed. But a decoupling, I think it's what 228 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:47,639 you're looking for. Yeah, but it's like you have this this intertroned spaghetti 229 00:16:47,679 --> 00:16:49,320 code base, and what you're trying to do is you're trying to take every 230 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,840 individual strain detan trying to Yeah, de tangle, that's the word I was 231 00:16:52,840 --> 00:17:00,559 looking at. Of course, named to the Disney movie Tangled, Who Knew? 232 00:17:00,799 --> 00:17:03,519 Who Knew? Disney was in the software deal ball. Yeah, I'm 233 00:17:03,559 --> 00:17:06,559 Dutch. You can hear that from my accent. But as a lot of 234 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,839 English terms titles of books, of series and movies, it's just the English 235 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,400 term until you start to literally translate in your brain and then you think that's 236 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,880 really stupid. Even star Wise is kind of stupid in that. By the 237 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,359 way, I don't remember if we were talking about Freakindal before we started and 238 00:17:21,519 --> 00:17:23,839 bitter Balling, but I think it's before we started recording. But you know, 239 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:26,880 I spend a little time ragging on that. But you know, there 240 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:32,440 is no better cheese than eat them, you know, yes, yeah, 241 00:17:32,519 --> 00:17:36,039 yeah, yeah, honestly. Yeah. You know, Dutch people actually the 242 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:40,119 worst in all the cultural things. They don't walk in wooded shoes. They 243 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:41,640 don't know where all the fancy places and the needlands are. You need to 244 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:48,839 be an expat to actually, you know, visit all these places. Okay, 245 00:17:51,079 --> 00:17:53,279 were we talking about flu in assert I think we were. We were 246 00:17:53,319 --> 00:17:56,880 trying to get there. It might have just been me. I don't know, 247 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:00,799 No, So, yeah, it started tirteen years ago and I just 248 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,960 checked it has two hundred and fifty one million downloads on new Gats Honestly, 249 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,799 I have no clue. I have no clue why people are using it everybody 250 00:18:08,839 --> 00:18:12,920 that I mean, I go to conferences these days, I speak about completely 251 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:17,039 different topics architecture, and then people say, oh, you're the guy that 252 00:18:17,079 --> 00:18:19,319 created a fluent thank you for that. You've made my life, you know, 253 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,200 much better, Like, oh, okay, I still don't know how 254 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:26,279 to respond to that. Yeah, I think, yeah, thank you, 255 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:27,799 the only thing you can really say. Yeah, yeah, Basically, I 256 00:18:27,839 --> 00:18:30,759 hope you enjoy it. If you have feedback, let me know what we 257 00:18:30,799 --> 00:18:34,799 can do about it, you know, create an issue if you like it, 258 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,200 right, that's that's great, That's what I was hoping for. Indeed. 259 00:18:38,319 --> 00:18:44,119 Indeed, so it's fluent assertion something that you use in your test code 260 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:49,200 as well? Or is it just on attributes that for testing methods? How 261 00:18:49,559 --> 00:18:53,680 how exactly do you use it? Oh? No, it's it's actually an 262 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:59,119 extension method which is called shoot as you can expect, okay, and that 263 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,440 basically exposes a bunch of methods like it should be true, should be empty, 264 00:19:03,599 --> 00:19:10,839 should contain stuff like that. So extension methods for for all basic types 265 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,519 basically yeah, yeah, yeah, collections and let's even support for data set, 266 00:19:15,559 --> 00:19:22,400 which was a mistake because a contributor used uh and we were we were 267 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:30,279 afraid to say yes, indeed no, But that's essentially what it is. 268 00:19:30,279 --> 00:19:34,400 It's just surprising how much time you have to spend on maintaining a code base 269 00:19:34,519 --> 00:19:38,240 like that that's popular, Like people always come up with niche IDs. You 270 00:19:38,319 --> 00:19:42,720 have to be you know, backwards compatible. I'm really and by the way, 271 00:19:42,839 --> 00:19:47,440 I just want to give some kudos to my person that spent the last 272 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,960 three years maintaining as well, you know us in Europe UM. But we 273 00:19:52,279 --> 00:19:55,759 work together and we tried to keep the whole API consistent. We tried to 274 00:19:55,799 --> 00:20:00,279 support all the frameworks, you know, make sure the code itself is test 275 00:20:00,319 --> 00:20:03,960 it and it's actually example code. We practice test different ephilement our selves at 276 00:20:04,039 --> 00:20:08,279 NDC also even talked about like all the little tools and practices that we use 277 00:20:08,559 --> 00:20:12,880 to maintain that library, which to my own surprise was like, there's actually 278 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,480 quite a lot we do to make it great. It's almost like a real 279 00:20:15,519 --> 00:20:19,680 project. So do you have almost like it's a real project. So getting 280 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,000 back to the extension method thing, you have extension method for objects, so 281 00:20:23,039 --> 00:20:27,279 it just works everywhere. So having your own models, you could say that 282 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:32,680 should you know, you can do actually should be equivalent too. Yeah, 283 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:37,559 and then you can pass in another object and what it will do it will 284 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,880 treat that object as a truth. So you can also pass an anonymous object 285 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,880 anonymous type. Sure, one, yeah and one. It's actually there's a 286 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,359 design principle behind that, because I believe that in your unit test or automated 287 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:55,599 test, every test should have one purpose. So if you have some kind 288 00:20:55,640 --> 00:21:00,319 of object like subject or the test that has a bunch of property, but 289 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,599 for that particular test you only care about, for example, two properties, 290 00:21:03,039 --> 00:21:07,240 then you can say it should be equivalent to create anonymous type only mentioned the 291 00:21:07,279 --> 00:21:11,599 two properties and those will be compared. The rest will be ignored, which 292 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,559 I use a lot for HTP based testing for example. Yeah, I remember 293 00:21:15,599 --> 00:21:19,480 before I discovered tricks like that, having to implement iclonable, you know, 294 00:21:19,519 --> 00:21:23,079 to make copies of the object just to test and to see you know this 295 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:29,559 is that yeah yeah, yeah, And like it's also recursive, so it's 296 00:21:29,559 --> 00:21:32,079 a bit too smart, you know. It started with a simple thing, 297 00:21:32,079 --> 00:21:34,400 but this is equivalent too, does a kind of recursive analysis. It tries 298 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:38,720 to understand how to treat records and two poles and dictionaries. You know, 299 00:21:38,759 --> 00:21:44,640 if the dictionary contains the same keys and the values in those dictionaries are equivalent, 300 00:21:45,079 --> 00:21:48,680 it will also satisfy the assertion that you can completely twigg that. Well, 301 00:21:48,759 --> 00:21:52,200 that's one of the features that kind of exploded and became maybe became too 302 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,200 powerful to be honest. Well, but I noticed you didn't say it uses 303 00:21:56,279 --> 00:22:03,119 AI because the new Hi Fi of the fifties. Well, actually you can 304 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,680 ask chet Cheapt to rewrite your test using fluids socitions and we'll do that for 305 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,839 you. Well that's GPT. But yeah, I just hate it that I 306 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,039 was listening to the radio this morning and there was some ad for some technology 307 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,720 thing and they're saying, you know, now with AI, it's like, 308 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:25,240 you know everything is AI now. Yeah, correct, everybody's trying to it's 309 00:22:25,319 --> 00:22:29,240 big, one, big marketing thing. It's totally marketing thing. They Yeah, 310 00:22:29,279 --> 00:22:33,279 they went down to the home the home maintenance center, and they bought 311 00:22:33,319 --> 00:22:38,039 themselves a spray can at AI and they're squirting on everything. There you go, 312 00:22:38,079 --> 00:22:44,039 I just draw out the letters. It's got AI on it lows minards 313 00:22:44,319 --> 00:22:49,559 all that pick one. Uh, it's kind of astonishing. Like I was 314 00:22:49,599 --> 00:22:52,680 just poking on the good Hubb pods where I realized, like, you guys 315 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,359 have been on good hubs. It's twenty ten, that's before it was cool. 316 00:22:55,839 --> 00:23:00,640 Um, I think we just we we jumped from cod plaques to get 317 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,799 Up just in time. Oh I see Coplex. Yeah I did. I 318 00:23:03,799 --> 00:23:07,519 did even I mean my Jonas didn't join by them, but I was doing 319 00:23:07,519 --> 00:23:12,000 this alone. But I think it started as in some kind of internal project. 320 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,440 Then I moved into Coplex, which was kind of difficult to work with 321 00:23:17,079 --> 00:23:18,839 because if people want to contribute, they had to deliver a patch file like 322 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,720 yeah, it didn't work. Yeah. And then at some point I remember 323 00:23:22,759 --> 00:23:26,720 there was an option to confer it because it was basically team Foundation service under 324 00:23:26,759 --> 00:23:30,920 the hoods right, right, and they built some kind of feature that you 325 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,359 can send an email to the Coplex team, say, can you confer this 326 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,279 GIT. That was basically when I started doing GIT. Yeah, and then 327 00:23:37,319 --> 00:23:41,880 get Up came and then you know, everything changes pool Quest and it didn't 328 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,400 yeah, and now it's we barely keep up with all the pool request reviews 329 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,160 that we get and the issue reports and the feature request and right, that's 330 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,279 the flip side of being successful I would. I'm sure, I don't want 331 00:23:52,319 --> 00:23:56,079 to use the word successful, but I think that's fairly. Fifteen one million 332 00:23:56,079 --> 00:24:00,119 downloads is pretty much qualifying you to be successful. Yeah, yeah, sure, 333 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,440 well and still you know, like you look at the stats on the 334 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,119 project, you go, this is a healthy open source project, like regular 335 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:12,680 contributions, lots of people working on it, lots of issues, like it's 336 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:17,519 a busy project. Your pull requests are pretty under control. Friend, at 337 00:24:17,519 --> 00:24:22,839 this particular moment, there are eight and they have real conversations attached to them. 338 00:24:22,839 --> 00:24:26,799 This is not this blind code going in m That's true. It's costing 339 00:24:26,839 --> 00:24:29,880 me a lot of time, yea, Janus as well. Unfortunately you want 340 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:30,920 to spend a bit more time on it. I also do a lot of 341 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,759 talks and stuff around that, which consumes sometime about that. But yeah, 342 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,720 it's I'm very happy with it. Good jobs just to yeah, yeah, 343 00:24:38,799 --> 00:24:42,880 thank you, Joan Us. That's something kind. It's funny because I actually 344 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,920 met him at the NBC for the first time in my life. Who like, 345 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:51,640 literally, wow, collaborated remotely for three years, four years, three 346 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,119 years, four years, and now you finally face to face with NDC Oslow. 347 00:24:55,319 --> 00:24:57,519 Yeah, indeed, it's it's like, yeah, indeed, that was 348 00:24:57,559 --> 00:25:02,839 really interesting. It was a great experience to finally meet the guy. And 349 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,279 this was not the only There was another project from Jeremy Miller Marten, and 350 00:25:07,319 --> 00:25:10,880 he also met his major contributor for the first time in person. Actually, 351 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,200 I met Jeremy for the first time, which was also nice. It's cool. 352 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,599 Yeah, yeah, all these folks that you've communicated with for years and 353 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,599 years and you just don't actually get this whole in person thing. You know, 354 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:23,319 we didn't do it for a couple of years, and now we can 355 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,599 kind of like, hey, it's a feature true. Yeah, wow, 356 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,880 yeah, I mean it's a lot. We could spend a lot of time 357 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,720 to dig in through fluent, but I think you hit the key points here 358 00:25:33,759 --> 00:25:38,160 and it does. I'd like this whole like detected a test framework and work 359 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,559 with it kind of mindset to say, okay, well we're using in units, 360 00:25:42,599 --> 00:25:47,480 so do it like this. Yeah, yeah, and yeah. People 361 00:25:47,519 --> 00:25:52,920 ask me sometimes like why is it successful? Honestly, I don't know what 362 00:25:53,079 --> 00:25:56,119 is the key thing? Because there's a lot of open source developers in the 363 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:00,319 world that want to contribute, and you know, sometimes like what is what 364 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,079 makes it successful? And I don't know is the catching name. Probably not, 365 00:26:06,599 --> 00:26:10,000 But yeah, we do care about the quality of the code. We 366 00:26:10,079 --> 00:26:17,319 do try to actually said contribute, have decent discussions on gid up, like 367 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,640 try to understand what people try to do. Yeah, we have a slack 368 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:26,000 as well. Obviously it's designed for extensibility, but it's like a real project. 369 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,720 You make mistakes, you introduce technical debts, you accept pull a quest 370 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,319 that in retrospect we shouldn't have accepted that. Well, we'll try to fix 371 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,000 that the next major release. But yeah, we do semantic versioning, which 372 00:26:37,039 --> 00:26:38,680 means you cannot Yeah, you have to be very careful. It's not just 373 00:26:38,759 --> 00:26:42,160 that it has to be compatible on the source code level, but there's also 374 00:26:42,279 --> 00:26:47,000 quite a lot of Actually that's what I discovered in the hard way. There's 375 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,680 a lot of people that build their own new get package is that depend on 376 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,559 this as extensions, you know, And then you change the signature of a 377 00:26:53,599 --> 00:26:57,160 method, like the return type of a method like who cares that should be 378 00:26:57,599 --> 00:27:00,640 just compuls And then somebody says, oh, yeah, but now I have 379 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:06,640 this binary compatibility issue missing, notthet exception stuff that that that makes it a 380 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:11,880 bit more harder for us. Yeah, yeah, it's I get the sense 381 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,640 you made this because you had problems you were trying to solve, and then 382 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,359 it became its own set of problems. Effectively, I don't see it like 383 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,880 that. I mean, of course, I'm proud and I use it myself 384 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,440 every day, and you know, I go, I do a lot of 385 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,839 consultancy gigs, and then you come into your client and it turns out a 386 00:27:29,839 --> 00:27:32,559 lot of people already using it and they know you, and you know, 387 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,640 yeah, the only thing is it starts to define you, like like okay, 388 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,920 this is mister fluent desertions. Yeah you all you do is testing. 389 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,640 You don't do anything else, right, No, yeah, yeah, exactly. 390 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,440 You know, but it does give me some credits. I even had 391 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,960 at my client that people were I was working for the client for a couple 392 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:53,680 of years and people were actually applying for a job because they knew that I 393 00:27:53,839 --> 00:27:59,079 was there. Like, okay, I don't want to spoil your your I'm 394 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,240 not that good. Actually nobody is. Well you're humble, that's for sure. 395 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,359 Yeah, it's reasonable. Are you seeing a lot of folks, I 396 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:12,160 mean, are taking TDD seriously? Like it's because it seems like fluent exactly 397 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:17,000 what you want in this idea of I can describe the test before I write 398 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,440 the code, and as the code gets developed, the test will pass. 399 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,359 A lot of people want to do it right, and not a lot of 400 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,599 people. No, I would say thirty percent of the people that I meet 401 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:36,079 actually do it or they're trying to, not necessarily with fluid desertion, because 402 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:37,839 that's just the tiny ingredient of it, right, but a lot of them 403 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:42,359 are struggling with that. And this is also one of the many talks that 404 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:47,839 I do at conferences because I see them struggling, and I've tried to understand 405 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,720 why they're struggling with that, and quite often it's the mistakes I made myself, 406 00:28:51,799 --> 00:28:55,880 like testing at two small scope, like assuming every class is its own 407 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,799 units, Well, for me, that's wrong. That's almost always wrong, 408 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,160 and that is already a change in mindset. And you know, you need 409 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,519 to actually understand the internal boundaries of your system, of your code base and 410 00:29:07,599 --> 00:29:11,079 try to align the unit of your unit test with those boundaries, which means 411 00:29:11,079 --> 00:29:15,880 that you might actually testing a couple of different classes together. And the example 412 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:22,720 that I use for that is that this single method and in flow dessertion be 413 00:29:22,839 --> 00:29:26,279 equivalent too. It's a single method. But if you're going to look at 414 00:29:26,319 --> 00:29:30,400 the code base behind that, that's like twenty thirty different classes with strategy pattern 415 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:34,920 implementation and stuff like that. And then I'll show people the UMIL diagram, 416 00:29:36,039 --> 00:29:38,519 assuming people still can read UML you know something that we learned in the past, 417 00:29:38,559 --> 00:29:41,799 you know, three years ago, And I showed them the diagram, 418 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,279 and then I'm asking them like, okay, this is the method that you 419 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,319 use on the front time I'm using my hands, which obviously doesn't work here 420 00:29:49,519 --> 00:29:55,799 wildly. Yeah, you use to be equivalent to method. That is the 421 00:29:55,839 --> 00:30:00,079 actual thing that you're working with, that is your contract. Everything underneath it 422 00:30:00,599 --> 00:30:06,640 is essentially an implementation detail. Because twelve years ago I had one class I 423 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:11,400 think it was called equivalency validator or maybe even I don't know, extensions or 424 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,759 something like that. Over the years, I wrote like tons of tests. 425 00:30:15,759 --> 00:30:18,720 I think there's like a two thousand different unit tests against this. Be careful 426 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,920 the two methods. I never started testing the individual classes. I always test 427 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,079 the whole thing as a unit because all of them are implementation details. Because 428 00:30:26,119 --> 00:30:30,720 of that, I managed to refractor things over the years, and that's at 429 00:30:30,799 --> 00:30:34,160 least that's what I believe what the original gang of formant with, you know, 430 00:30:34,279 --> 00:30:37,559 design patterns. It's a way to refactor your codebase, you know, 431 00:30:37,599 --> 00:30:41,119 give it more structure, make it easier for people to understand that structure. 432 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,240 And I have a bunch of these examples that I do in my talk to 433 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,200 try to make people aware that the unit is quite often much more than that 434 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:55,119 single class, except if that class is designed to be usable, right right, 435 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,759 That is one of the key ingredients, if I may that. I 436 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,240 think that makes a big difference if you're trying to practice unit testing and test 437 00:31:03,359 --> 00:31:07,200 of development. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, that's the challenge. And it's 438 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,440 interesting to see. You know, you've got this recursive effect going on, 439 00:31:10,519 --> 00:31:15,119 Dennis, where you're using those testing principles on your testing framework, you know, 440 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,680 and making all of those mistakes along the way. I mean, one 441 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,839 of the parts about this has he'd been doing it long enough that you started 442 00:31:22,839 --> 00:31:26,200 before a new GAT like you didn't have all the help that it's around now, 443 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,400 so you've sort of grown up into that as well. True, and 444 00:31:30,519 --> 00:31:33,359 just say it's it's interesting to see that you were just learning along with the 445 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,319 rest of us about all of these problems. I'm trying to get to. 446 00:31:37,559 --> 00:31:38,599 I think we're in a better place. I'm pretty sure we're in a better 447 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,119 place. Yeah, were in a better place, absolutely, if I compare 448 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:45,799 that. I mean, indeed, I remember that we didn't have new gats. 449 00:31:45,799 --> 00:31:49,039 I remember that we didn't have standard or dot net core. We didn't 450 00:31:49,039 --> 00:31:57,119 have multi targeting. I remember that Claire Novoltki helped me a lot like implementing 451 00:31:57,119 --> 00:32:00,880 like a baiting click implementation, you know, so that we can support multiple 452 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:07,400 frameworks and dynamically load certain parts of FLU desertions based on the framework you're targeting. 453 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,480 I remember there was something called dot nuts five, which has nothing to 454 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:15,400 do with uh oh, there's no dot get coal Five's that dotnet coal five. 455 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,519 I don't even remember. No, it was just called dot net. 456 00:32:19,519 --> 00:32:21,880 By then you'd just called five. Yeah, we got the get rid of 457 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,240 the core. Yeah, And there was like this moniker called dot nuts five 458 00:32:24,279 --> 00:32:29,480 I remember correctly. A couple of years ago, way before donut core. 459 00:32:29,559 --> 00:32:32,319 They were trying to come up with some new new framework standards or maybe it 460 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:39,400 was proposed Microsoft dot Net framework something like that. Because it's currently there is 461 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,599 no five for that. No, no, it was what wasn't even called 462 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,720 dotnet five man, it's it's a long it's it's a dark age time thing 463 00:32:47,759 --> 00:32:52,440 where everything became very difficult with doldnet. I think when what was dotnet was 464 00:32:52,559 --> 00:32:57,599 kind of losing its popularity for a while, you know, Um, but 465 00:32:57,839 --> 00:33:00,200 yeah, I mean now multi targeting is just a matter if you know specified 466 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:05,640 the targets you want to target, use some if deaf statements here and down. 467 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,519 It just works. It's so much easier. That standard also enabled a 468 00:33:08,519 --> 00:33:12,880 lot of things we couldn't do in the past. H Yeah. But also 469 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,440 mock down being able to build your own documentation websites with jack all have get 470 00:33:16,519 --> 00:33:22,640 up hosed them love markdown. Yeah. Good ideas that help editing a little 471 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,400 easier. Um, yeah, it's I think we're in a great world with 472 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:30,440 that. Actually, it's definitely without doubt. Yeah, And Dennis, I'm 473 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:37,519 gonna interrupt for one moment this very important message or two and we're back. 474 00:33:37,599 --> 00:33:42,559 I'm Richard Campbell. That's Carl Franklin. Hey, you're listening to dot net 475 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,200 Rocks. We're here with our friend Dennis Duman. We're talking a bit about 476 00:33:45,559 --> 00:33:50,039 fluent assertions. Do we need to talk about liquid projections? I like these 477 00:33:50,119 --> 00:33:53,119 names. I think we should. I mean, I think we should sort 478 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:57,400 of start at the beginning about events sourcing and what it's used for. There 479 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,240 we don't really we haven't really gone into that. Um, so maybe we 480 00:34:00,279 --> 00:34:05,119 should define that and cqrs and then why we need projections in what they are. 481 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:10,559 Yeah, so that's a question I assume, right, yeah, yeah, 482 00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:16,199 yeah, let's start there. Event sourcing is an architecture style. It's 483 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:21,719 not an architecture, but it's just a style that you can use to store. 484 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,840 Essentially, it means you store the state of your domain in the form 485 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:29,480 of a series of events. So instead of storing you know, creating a 486 00:34:29,519 --> 00:34:34,239 customer stable and you have a customer object and DOTNT and you just use an 487 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,280 ORM or something like that, like anti framework or an hibernat if you're old 488 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:42,920 enough, you store that into a table. You're actually storing things that happened 489 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,559 in the domain changes, the changes, but not just the changes, but 490 00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:50,960 also you try to capture the intent, like what happened functionally in the system. 491 00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:54,159 I think the textbook example of that is that when you change the address 492 00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:59,199 of a client or something like that, is that because there was a mistake 493 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,440 in the address, or was that because the client moved to a different place. 494 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:06,960 I mean even the number, how the number of the street. I 495 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,280 mean if you I know some pretty big, big streets in the US, 496 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:14,119 and if you move from I don't know what is the biggest street with all 497 00:35:14,119 --> 00:35:19,599 the bars in the Los Angeles always forget But if you move from number fifteen 498 00:35:19,599 --> 00:35:22,679 to two thousands, is that a mistake or did you actually move to a 499 00:35:22,679 --> 00:35:27,440 different place? Right right. A canonical example also is in finance right where 500 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,280 where you can't just like change the amount that you charge somebody. If you 501 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:36,320 overcharge them, you have to put in how much you charge them, and 502 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,719 then you have to add an event for or a projection or something that says, 503 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,719 oh, we had to correct for this, and now the current value 504 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:50,039 is this, So that you always have a record of how the state has 505 00:35:50,119 --> 00:35:54,280 mutated and and hopefully you be able to undo that or go back in time 506 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,960 and look to see what the state was at a certain time. That is 507 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,920 one of the strength of defense sourcings that you can actually do that. You 508 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:05,079 can also replay history, can actually look at the state of the domain at 509 00:36:05,079 --> 00:36:07,159 a particular point in time, which is why it's coming from the financial word. 510 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:13,079 So projections comes up within the context of cqrs, usually right command query 511 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:19,639 fastility segregation, where you want to transform the state from maybe what your application 512 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:25,199 uses to something else. The event needs to be projected into some other kind 513 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:29,280 of shape so that it's easier to do something that you want to do, 514 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:31,440 like query correct because the challenge with the events, of course, if you 515 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:36,360 only store events, you cannot do a query like give me all the open 516 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,199 orders which total value is bigger than one hundred k or something, all the 517 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:46,199 clients with orders that have over one hundred thousand dollars because that information is not 518 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:51,519 available. You can only say give me a particular customer if that's the entity 519 00:36:51,599 --> 00:36:54,800 that you have. So if you want to be able to do queries across 520 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,480 all these entities and all kinds of different structures, you need to take those 521 00:36:59,519 --> 00:37:04,000 events and project, as you said, into a format that is more optimized 522 00:37:04,039 --> 00:37:07,199 for quarrying, and that can be an h T p API that you're use 523 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:12,280 in the UI. You can even project it into adjacent or XML or xtmail 524 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,440 page that is already pre rendered so by the time the request comes in, 525 00:37:15,519 --> 00:37:20,960 which is very powerful. Yeah, that is usually a source of a lot 526 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,880 of complexity to build those projections to think about Okay, should they be synchronous 527 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,679 with the domain? You know, if you click on the save button from 528 00:37:28,679 --> 00:37:31,480 a web page and you do querry, should then be consistent? Or is 529 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:37,119 it acceptable that these things built in the background. They're also a big problem. 530 00:37:37,119 --> 00:37:39,599 If you upgrade your version of the code based do new version, then 531 00:37:39,599 --> 00:37:43,599 you need to deal with the schema changes or something like that. You have 532 00:37:43,599 --> 00:37:46,840 to reproject things. And if there's millions of events in your events stor as 533 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:51,719 they used to call that, that can take a while. So Liquid Projections 534 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:57,360 is just another tiny library that are built to make it easier to build those 535 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:02,360 projects. The projection code basically what we call ject us um. Nothing more 536 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:06,239 than that. It's it's just a bunch of building blocks, not even a 537 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,239 framework. I don't like frameworks. I like to build small building blocks that 538 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:14,719 you can mix. A match does require you to understand those building blocks a 539 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,480 bit better, and I have some documentation on the website about that, and 540 00:38:17,639 --> 00:38:21,440 nothing more than that. Doesn't even take me a lot of time to maintain. 541 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,880 Actually, does it also use a fluent syntax? It does use fluent 542 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:30,000 APIs yes, yeah, indeed, I sense a pattern here, Yeah, 543 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:36,280 yeah, it it becomes cheesy. I also build something called I think it's 544 00:38:36,519 --> 00:38:40,320 fluid. Fluid cashing was another little library I created, so liquid projections, 545 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:45,760 fluid cashing, fluent assertions, and then I probably used Google to find other 546 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:51,880 synonyms for things that can. You know, you could do a fluent library 547 00:38:51,880 --> 00:39:00,039 for f sharp and call it a fluent or some people that's pretty good. 548 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:07,079 I love that, I think. Don't email me. Some people actually hate 549 00:39:07,079 --> 00:39:08,320 this whole fluent API, but I like it. I love it. I 550 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:13,920 found. Yeah, there's another lot of people floral or something for building fluent 551 00:39:14,079 --> 00:39:16,800 HTP request or something like that. Yeah. Yeah, well I just both 552 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:22,719 poking around you getting suck two hundred and fifty million downloads of fluid assertions that 553 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:28,639 thought. That's a big number. Okay, there's no question about it. 554 00:39:28,679 --> 00:39:31,360 You're successful here. Yeah. Well ask my wife. She said, like, 555 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:36,199 but why can't you just earn I don't know one sent yeh, that's 556 00:39:36,199 --> 00:39:37,840 true, yeah, I said, doesn't work like that. So what do 557 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:43,760 you get out of it? I don't know, the murray, the admiration 558 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:45,559 of your fans, yeah, something like that. Absolutely, you get to 559 00:39:45,679 --> 00:39:50,880 you get to be on dot net rocks. Yeah, indeed, which is 560 00:39:51,079 --> 00:39:57,239 worth it already. Listeners appreciate it. Yeah, that in five euros will 561 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:01,559 get you all at today. Yeah, that's a topic on itself, funding 562 00:40:01,639 --> 00:40:06,599 an open source development. We were just talking about that last week. Yeah, 563 00:40:06,639 --> 00:40:09,159 I mean it's a recurring topic on the show lately, especially because I 564 00:40:09,199 --> 00:40:13,960 see you have a Patreon in things like is any of that helping? No, 565 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,440 right, the only thing that's helping is is get up sponsoring. Yeah, 566 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:21,480 the gihub spont it did see there's a few gith hub sponsors. Yeah, 567 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,159 it's not It seems to be the most direct. That's usually because it 568 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:29,880 also supports Well. The thing is with funding is that a lot of companies 569 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:31,840 don't know how to do that. Yeah. It's not like somebody can pull 570 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,559 the credit card and pay for it. They have to go to the I 571 00:40:35,599 --> 00:40:39,360 don't know what's the name of this department procurement or something like that. Yes, 572 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:44,440 finance, right, yeah, yeah, finance. And it becomes very 573 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,760 hard. And I was talking about this with Mathias Cork who built another library 574 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,599 called Nuke, which is a c sharp build buildings build script library. You 575 00:40:52,679 --> 00:40:58,360 were struggling with the same thing. It's it's difficult, it's difficult and again 576 00:40:58,679 --> 00:41:00,159 I'm not doing it for the money. Yeah, I mean I have a 577 00:41:00,199 --> 00:41:06,079 day job, but it does help a little bit with getting a speaking gigs 578 00:41:06,119 --> 00:41:10,239 and you know that kind of stuff. Yeah, but it is it is 579 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:15,559 for better worth a labor or passion, because it isn't it isn't a business 580 00:41:15,639 --> 00:41:17,599 itself, and I don't know that it would be better. Like the other 581 00:41:17,599 --> 00:41:22,559 conversation we're having is, Okay, now I'm productizing this because there's certain customers 582 00:41:22,559 --> 00:41:25,119 out there that want to pay me, but only if it's actually got a 583 00:41:25,159 --> 00:41:30,280 commercial component to it. I don't know that fluid Assertions falls into that category. 584 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,119 I don't think of anything. I mean, what would you offer, 585 00:41:32,199 --> 00:41:37,360 like somebody has to pay for a unit testing a library, Like how would 586 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,440 you even do that? For support? Like does that? Does that even 587 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,000 make sense? Yeah, that's what I do. I do that. Yeah. 588 00:41:44,079 --> 00:41:46,840 Yeah, you can actually use gate of sponsors and pay a certain amount 589 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:51,119 of money you get like some time for me to help you make your test 590 00:41:51,199 --> 00:41:55,000 power. But that doesn't really it hasn't really helped. No, no, 591 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:59,840 no, it's not like a density server, you know, where you actually 592 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,840 this is a crucial part of your product, and then people are willing to 593 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:07,519 pay for it because it solves a production issue. Yeah, it's a chunk 594 00:42:07,519 --> 00:42:10,239 of code they're running in production and they want, you know, certain things 595 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:15,480 from that. The funny part is in last week's show we were literally described 596 00:42:15,559 --> 00:42:17,639 and I said, hey, yeah, this makes sense when it's a CMS, 597 00:42:17,679 --> 00:42:21,039 which when we were talking to Sean Walker about it, that you can 598 00:42:21,079 --> 00:42:22,719 turn into commercial product. But there's going to be these internal libraries. It 599 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:27,440 doesn't make sense for and here we are having a conversation with you about an 600 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,800 internal library that it doesn't make sense, doesn't correct. It has to come 601 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:35,480 from people that appreciate it or they feel like it really helped them in a 602 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:37,360 certain way and they're willing to do a one time thing or something like that. 603 00:42:38,159 --> 00:42:40,679 I mean, look at yourself, like how easy. How often do 604 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:45,159 you contribute or do you sponsor other libraries? Yeah, I mean I should. 605 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:49,159 I should actually pay for action in it and all these libraries that make 606 00:42:49,199 --> 00:42:52,760 my life, you know, that makes me a better developer, help my 607 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:57,079 clients. Even one thing that just occurred to me is that you know, 608 00:42:57,199 --> 00:43:00,000 in the music business of the past, because as I don't think it's really 609 00:43:00,079 --> 00:43:07,800 relevant anymore, they used to you used to bars and performance establishments used to 610 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:13,639 pay or they still do, ask CAP and BMI to collect royalties for artists 611 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,840 on their behalf, and they would just you know, how how many hours 612 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:21,000 a week do you have? What joke box stations do you? Blah blah 613 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:22,599 blah this and that. All right, we estimate you're going to pay, 614 00:43:22,639 --> 00:43:25,320 like, you know, a thousand dollars a year or something like that. 615 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:30,360 And then the goal of ask cap and BMI then is to get artists to 616 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:37,400 register with them and then distribute royalties accordingly. But you know that it's it's 617 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:42,360 become a joke with live streaming and all that stuff. But yeah, but 618 00:43:42,679 --> 00:43:46,719 you know, there is a similar idea that you know, get hub or 619 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:52,079 one of these places that we've been talking about. Some some establishment or some 620 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:59,559 nonprofit agency could essentially say, you know, if you if you use open 621 00:43:59,599 --> 00:44:05,559 source, you should become a member and pay a due and then those dues 622 00:44:05,599 --> 00:44:09,559 are collected and then distributed to open source projects based on the number of downloads 623 00:44:09,559 --> 00:44:15,559 they get. Whatever that is. I would embrace that, right, and 624 00:44:15,679 --> 00:44:17,760 if there was such a thing I would I would do that as well. 625 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:22,599 I would become a member of that organization because then it's not like I'm not 626 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:27,119 nickel and diming myself for this project that project. In this project, that 627 00:44:27,159 --> 00:44:30,000 project, I'm saying, look, here's one hundred dollars a month or whatever 628 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:35,400 it is. Then I'm giving to this membership, and then that is going 629 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:43,079 to support the open source community. I like that. Somebody proved me wrong. 630 00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,199 I like that too. Actually in the Netherlands, in the Netherlands, 631 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:49,960 you actually still have to pay for music like that. If you have a 632 00:44:50,079 --> 00:44:52,280 bar, sports conteam, you actually have to pay well, I know, 633 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:57,679 even if you Spotify. Yeah, I know Spotify business costs like fifty dollars 634 00:44:57,679 --> 00:45:04,679 a month per room that it's in um And I have people who I'm friends 635 00:45:04,679 --> 00:45:07,719 of mine that on restaurants to say it's worth it because they can just put 636 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,760 on what they want, you know. But but that's you know, that's 637 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:16,159 not ASCAP and BMI anymore. That's Spotify. Who's you know, distributing micropennies 638 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:22,400 to artists. Yeah, it's kind of broken. Yeah, it's just a 639 00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:24,599 question of yeah, is it is it usable money? Does it make a 640 00:45:24,599 --> 00:45:29,280 difference? That's right? Yeah, I feel this conversation keep coming up. 641 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:31,440 I'm the guy who is good at talking to the CFO, and I feel 642 00:45:31,639 --> 00:45:37,079 an it's like, is there a construct here? You know, it's becoming 643 00:45:37,079 --> 00:45:40,960 more common in bigger companies to have like a giving fund for charities where the 644 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,760 company says, hey, we'll match dollar for dollar what you contribute to to 645 00:45:45,039 --> 00:45:49,360 your favorite charity. That kind of thing like should we be pushing on a 646 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,840 construct for any organization as development? It says, let us know what open 647 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:58,440 source libraries you're using, and you value you know, you put in your 648 00:45:58,559 --> 00:46:01,119 votes, and we have a pool. We're going to spend a thousand dollars 649 00:46:01,119 --> 00:46:06,920 a month distributed across the open source projects that you think are the most important 650 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:08,840 for us. Right, let somebody else deal with the math. Well, 651 00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,280 and you know you do that with a piece of software. They did all 652 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,800 that. All of the developers that are working inside of an organization, they 653 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:19,400 you know, we've got to do a bill of materials for our software anyway. 654 00:46:19,559 --> 00:46:22,480 Right, so we're right, sure, we already know what libraries we're 655 00:46:22,519 --> 00:46:25,079 using. Let's see what show up the most. Then throw in some voting, 656 00:46:25,199 --> 00:46:29,000 like tell me what your feel of the value of this is, how 657 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,320 important is and so forth, and from that we just distribute the money and 658 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,159 you simply assign a budget item to that. It says, hey, we 659 00:46:35,199 --> 00:46:37,400 depend on a bunch of these things, so we're going to spend X many 660 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,280 dollars a month and distribute from there. I think it takes us a good 661 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:44,519 citizen. I think companies are more willing to embrace something like that that can 662 00:46:44,559 --> 00:46:46,440 be a line item in the budget, rather than you know, having developers 663 00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:51,400 come to them and say hey, I need yeah, five dollars and blah 664 00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:53,280 blah blah. Yeah, the dev doesn't want to do it because they don't 665 00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:57,480 like talking to finances. Finance doesn't like these small ticket items. This is 666 00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,880 a paint in the buket, but it's a single monthly line item, and 667 00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:05,400 there's a mechanism for ding distribution done like dinner. I like that me too. 668 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,159 Actually, I feel guilty that I haven't pushed for that at my clients, 669 00:47:08,639 --> 00:47:13,320 even my own employer, because it's not that hard to explain that. 670 00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,639 I mean, you spend tons of I mean just one developer of spends one 671 00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:21,480 day of working is already much more than much more. That's a thousand dollars 672 00:47:21,559 --> 00:47:24,599 that you just mentioned exactly. The thing it can't do is evolve into a 673 00:47:24,639 --> 00:47:30,079 business that's for profit, Like it has to be very very stripped down, 674 00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:36,480 you know, and obviously it needs oversight. But but what Yeah, it 675 00:47:36,519 --> 00:47:38,679 can't. It can't turn into a for profit business because then it'll just eat 676 00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:43,079 up everything and then you know, the developerson won't anything. Well, some 677 00:47:43,119 --> 00:47:47,199 people make that business. I know this FUGS project at some point on Patroon. 678 00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:52,159 I think there was like fifteen thousand dollars a month of Like that person 679 00:47:52,199 --> 00:47:55,320 can actually make it that job to do that right, which is not my 680 00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:59,880 goal because I actually love talking to clients, but I completely buy into what 681 00:48:00,199 --> 00:48:02,199 saying and I actually I've just decided I should push a little bit of hotter. 682 00:48:02,679 --> 00:48:06,320 It's not that complicated. Yeah, this sounds like a project we could 683 00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:10,880 build. It's a little bit of software and so yeah, and it's about 684 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:15,480 it's a mind and it's certainly a mindset. But the whole thing here is 685 00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:19,239 to lower the barrier to doing the right thing. I think get up has 686 00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:22,400 a responsibility as well. And I think they're also trying to make it easier 687 00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:28,000 for companies to sponsor projects, right yeah, And that's the thing is like 688 00:48:28,119 --> 00:48:30,760 right now, get hub sponsorship means going to the individual project and is signing 689 00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:34,480 the money, Like, there really needs to be the company level viewpoint. 690 00:48:35,039 --> 00:48:38,480 And heck, if you if your company's functioning through gethhub with private, private 691 00:48:38,519 --> 00:48:43,039 repositories or public ones, like if that's where your source code flows through. 692 00:48:43,079 --> 00:48:45,360 Anyway, gehub has all the data you need, right it can. It 693 00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:49,440 can produce that bill of materials for you, and you can tell you here's 694 00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,960 the dependencies you're taking, like and here's here's here suggested monthly donation or whatever 695 00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:58,440 it is. Whatever you let's let's go get Thomas Dems them to the wall. 696 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,599 I think that's a great idea. That's a great idea. I don't 697 00:49:01,639 --> 00:49:07,400 know who that is, but see the current CEO of GitHub, so I 698 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:12,159 should know. Oh I should at least send him a link to this episode. 699 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:15,800 Yeah, there you go. I think we can invite him on. 700 00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:20,559 He's been on my radar someone to invite on to talk to the state of 701 00:49:20,599 --> 00:49:23,280 geth hub. So let him talk extemporaneously for a while and then we'll nail 702 00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:37,039 him. Yeah, I'll pin him down. Now he's not coming. Okay. 703 00:49:37,119 --> 00:49:40,400 Well, we're just trying to make it a better place for developers all 704 00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:44,719 around, that's all. Yeah, Well, and the thing is like we 705 00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:49,360 you know, we're thinking through each level's problems, right, Like, it 706 00:49:49,559 --> 00:49:54,199 is very reasonable for development organization to recognize the certain amount of money that we're 707 00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:59,159 saving because we use these libraries. Let's assign a portion of that to be 708 00:49:59,199 --> 00:50:02,199 distributed. But make it easy for me to do that, and so, 709 00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:06,760 and then you want to support the right things. You want your developers to 710 00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:08,239 feel great that we're supporting the right things. So they want you want that 711 00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:12,159 involved in the process. But it should be simple. Yeah, it seems 712 00:50:12,159 --> 00:50:15,000 to you, guys just solved the whole problem for us. Well, now 713 00:50:15,079 --> 00:50:19,199 somebody's got it yet. Ideas are cheap, Yeah, ideas cheap. Execution 714 00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:23,000 is a painting the butt right as always? C sharp coding guidelines. Why 715 00:50:23,039 --> 00:50:25,800 did you do this? What is wrong with you? And what is your 716 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:30,320 wife thinking about it? Yeah, she doesn't know. It's it's my secret, 717 00:50:30,639 --> 00:50:35,039 the secret electric ship. You must have gotten ennamorative C sharp right at 718 00:50:35,039 --> 00:50:37,840 the beginning and the original announcement in two thousand, Like when did you encounter 719 00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:42,559 C sharp the first time? I think it's two thousand or end of nineteen 720 00:50:42,639 --> 00:50:45,159 ninety nine. I was doing C plus plus mostly with I think it was 721 00:50:45,199 --> 00:50:51,000 called MFC, and I was working with a company that had C plus plus 722 00:50:51,039 --> 00:50:57,199 guidelines based on Stroutstrop industrial strength C plus plus or something like that goes really 723 00:50:58,039 --> 00:51:02,119 and initially it was really annoying, obnoxious set of rules, like you should 724 00:51:02,159 --> 00:51:06,719 not have more than one hundred lines. Now we have tools for that these 725 00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:10,800 days. This is just a bunch of development guidelines, you know, some 726 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:16,239 conventions and a lot of stuff you can cover with added a confix with what 727 00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:21,599 else rustling with the I use a lot of Jabbrains tooling. So with we 728 00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,599 sharper and writer you can get this stuff for done. But it's it's mostly 729 00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:30,599 a set of guidelines and for me they're kind of obvious. Apparently there's still 730 00:51:30,639 --> 00:51:36,599 a market for it because people still fork the repository or print out this cheat 731 00:51:36,639 --> 00:51:39,079 sheet, which is a one page PDIA that you can put on people's desks, 732 00:51:39,159 --> 00:51:44,599 like where we're still working at the office, right, and it's more 733 00:51:44,639 --> 00:51:49,679 guidelines like that people don't start to overuse I don't know, the new pattern 734 00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:53,800 matching, or make switch statements from everything instead of thinking about object oriented design, 735 00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:58,960 you know, stuff like that, to just to remind people about that 736 00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:04,840 every practice, every principle can be misused and overused. Sure, and I'm 737 00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:09,360 trying to fight some balance, like how you can do that? Nothing special? 738 00:52:09,599 --> 00:52:14,440 Yeah, yeah, and then every rule should be broken once in a 739 00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,880 while, just done coherently, like there's a reason why we broke this rule, 740 00:52:17,199 --> 00:52:21,039 that's right. Yeah, and that's why it's called the guideline or the 741 00:52:21,119 --> 00:52:24,679 rule. Yeah. I always worry when people print that stuff out and handed 742 00:52:24,679 --> 00:52:28,719 the people it's like this is gospel. You must follow this or you have 743 00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:32,000 failed. I used to be like that, I don't know, fifty years 744 00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:36,039 ago or something. But yeah, at some point, I guess you grow 745 00:52:36,119 --> 00:52:38,599 up and you start to understand the pros and cons and when things apply, 746 00:52:39,039 --> 00:52:43,039 well, just acknowledge that there's more than one new way to be successful. 747 00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:45,079 There's no absolutes for any of this. If there was one right way, 748 00:52:45,079 --> 00:52:49,960 we'd be doing it, and there isn't. There isn't. Not true. 749 00:52:50,079 --> 00:52:52,719 That's why it's a get a repo. And I even recommend people to clone 750 00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:57,519 a fork to repo, create air, own internal whatever they want to call 751 00:52:57,559 --> 00:53:00,920 it. I use that as a starting point. M great idea. And 752 00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,440 then but the main thing here is like why does this guideline exist? Here 753 00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:07,920 are the risks when you don't follow it, but they're only risks, right, 754 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:13,280 like this, there's nothing certain. It's like we've when you're when these 755 00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,519 things get too long, they get harder to maintain, like they you you're 756 00:53:15,679 --> 00:53:22,440 entangling different methods together. Like there's all the mistakes that we make as developers, 757 00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:24,719 and the guidelines try and steer us away from that. You can have 758 00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:29,719 opinions about that. You can disagree with it. It's totally fine. But 759 00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:32,519 I recently learned that I didn't realize that myself because we're getting older, I 760 00:53:32,639 --> 00:53:37,800 mean, an adult that world for twenty years. There's an entire group of 761 00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:42,039 people that just graduated or have two or three years of experience, and they 762 00:53:42,079 --> 00:53:45,840 may be they may benefit from some of these guidelines because they don't even think 763 00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:47,559 about it. They just try to make the code work, you know, 764 00:53:47,679 --> 00:53:52,480 and probably some senior developer will slap them in the face with my guidelines, 765 00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:55,320 I don't know, at least make them think about this kind of stuff, 766 00:53:55,440 --> 00:54:00,760 right, don't follow it blindly, don't be dogmatic about anything except that you 767 00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:05,440 should use flu insertions. Of course, yes, did we mention it, 768 00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:09,400 but yeah, I don't know if you heard. But also that, Yeah, 769 00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:12,719 don't be dogmatic about it. This is why we do it this way. 770 00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:16,159 And it's hard when you're a new developer to understand the consequences of the 771 00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:20,880 code you write ten years from now. Yeah, because you haven't had that 772 00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:25,519 experience yet. And again, tooling has become better now we have Rosslyn analysis 773 00:54:25,599 --> 00:54:30,280 that help you fall. It doesn't solve the problems, doesn't solve your design 774 00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:35,159 issues, but they can help. We have so on a cube that may 775 00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:37,599 you know, tell you that your method is too long. Okay, there's 776 00:54:37,599 --> 00:54:40,960 a risk that people that just blindly start to stupidly reflect the things and not 777 00:54:42,039 --> 00:54:44,719 make it better. But it should be a trigger. I hope it's a 778 00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:47,760 trigger. You know, people think about this or have a conversation with other 779 00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:51,559 developers, like, you know what, my method is pretty big. I 780 00:54:51,559 --> 00:54:53,719 can, of course make all these very small methods. Doesn't It's not going 781 00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:57,800 to make it better right at different ways of how I can approach that. 782 00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:01,159 I hope that this will trigger things. It's almost a stimulus for conversation. 783 00:55:01,199 --> 00:55:05,679 It's like, why is my method getting a large Am I entangling two different 784 00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:08,800 things? Or is it just a big method? Could be you know, 785 00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:13,239 and you get into the pair of eyes involved. I look at this, 786 00:55:13,639 --> 00:55:15,400 you know why am I pressing up against this limit? Am I approaching this 787 00:55:15,519 --> 00:55:20,280 wrong? Or is it this the right thing to do? Refactoring it just 788 00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:22,800 to make it shorter when it still does all the same thing is questionable. 789 00:55:23,639 --> 00:55:29,719 Really, I think the main issue here is am I not sticking with a 790 00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:34,039 single function? I mean, I'm making them do all the stuff method Well, 791 00:55:34,119 --> 00:55:37,559 that's why a lot of people are so let's say negative about clean code, 792 00:55:37,599 --> 00:55:39,840 because you know, people start to follow these these books and stuff like 793 00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:45,039 that blindly without understanding what's behind that. Yeah, that's what everything. I 794 00:55:45,039 --> 00:55:49,239 mean, you can configure son a cube in a certain way that your poolic 795 00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:52,000 question will be rejected. But the whole point is you need to you need 796 00:55:52,039 --> 00:55:55,519 to think by yourself, or at least have that conversation. I should just 797 00:55:55,599 --> 00:56:00,280 set h Yeah, and then I think you you learn to think by yourself 798 00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:05,800 by having those conversations. You're hoping that the tools will give you indicators of 799 00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:09,599 when to have those conversations, not always running back all the time. Yeah, 800 00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:13,639 you just do when it's needed. No, I really appreciate that. 801 00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,079 It's just astonishing to me to do anything for twenty years. Oh wait, 802 00:56:16,519 --> 00:56:23,639 how long will we make this bloody podcast? Oh my god, I think 803 00:56:23,679 --> 00:56:27,679 you're the same species, Dennis. You get involved in things and you just 804 00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:32,519 don't stop. Yeah, we have that disease. It's called passions. Okay, 805 00:56:32,599 --> 00:56:36,119 we'll call it that. It might be a kind of insanity too. 806 00:56:37,159 --> 00:56:40,440 Yeah, but I think if understood correctly, sanity means you're doing the same 807 00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:45,519 thing all over over and over again and expect different behavior. That is one 808 00:56:45,599 --> 00:56:50,760 kind of insanive it is. I actually see change of behavior. Yeah, 809 00:56:50,559 --> 00:56:54,559 I see people ignoring me. I see people throwing my guidelines into you out 810 00:56:54,639 --> 00:56:59,639 of this because she just has your best interests in mind, you know, 811 00:57:00,599 --> 00:57:04,760 yes, yes, no, but that that's why we do these things, 812 00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:08,639 right, I mean you're doing a podcast to share experiences, to provide people 813 00:57:08,639 --> 00:57:12,199 with a different insight. I do the same thing with my blogs, with 814 00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:16,440 my presenting or conference. It's never the truth, it's just a mindset or 815 00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:22,199 maybe these different perspectives to you. Yeah, right, Dennis. It's been 816 00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:24,920 an absolute pleasure having you on the show, and please do come back again. 817 00:57:25,079 --> 00:57:29,039 I love to thank you very much. All right, awesome, and 818 00:57:29,119 --> 00:57:53,559 we'll see you next time. I'm dot net rocks dot net. Rocks is 819 00:57:53,599 --> 00:57:59,519 brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full service 820 00:57:59,599 --> 00:58:04,719 audio, video and post production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, 821 00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:09,679 and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com. Visit our website 822 00:58:09,679 --> 00:58:16,039 at dt nt r ocks dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, 823 00:58:16,199 --> 00:58:21,119 comments, and access to the full archives going back to show number one, 824 00:58:21,679 --> 00:58:24,400 recorded in September two thousand and two. And make sure you check out 825 00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:29,719 our sponsors. They keep us in business. Now go write some code CE 826 00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:31,079 next time you got a m