WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:05.679 How'd you like to listen to dot NetRocks with no ads? Easy? Become 2 00:00:05.679 --> 00:00:09.839 a patron For just five dollars a month, you get access to a private 3 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:14.439 RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month will 4 00:00:14.439 --> 00:00:19.039 get you that and a special dot NetRocks patron mug. Sign up now at 5 00:00:19.039 --> 00:00:23.800 Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey, Carl and Richard here with your 6 00:00:23.879 --> 00:00:29.199 twenty twenty four NDC schedule. We'll be at as many NDC conferences as possible 7 00:00:29.239 --> 00:00:33.520 this year, and you should consider attending no matter what. Ndcoslo is happening 8 00:00:33.640 --> 00:00:37.840 June tenth through the fourteenth. Get your tickets at ndcoslo dot com. The 9 00:00:37.880 --> 00:00:45.479 Copenhagen Developers Festival happens August twenty sixth through the thirtieth. Tickets at Cphdevfest dot 10 00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:50.719 com. Ndcporto is happening October fourteenth through the eighteenth. The early discount ends 11 00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:56.079 June fourteenth. Tickets at Ndcporto dot com. We'll see you there, we 12 00:00:56.240 --> 00:01:11.920 hope. Hey, guess what it's dot net rocks. In a very special 13 00:01:11.959 --> 00:01:15.200 episode nineteen hundred, Scott Hansman is here. I'm Carl Franklin. I'mgor Campbell 14 00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:21.120 and we're at build Yeah, and happened to have just made our aprocess making 15 00:01:21.200 --> 00:01:23.959 O nineteen hundredth episode. How did that happen? How did that happen? 16 00:01:23.159 --> 00:01:26.239 Well, we got a really great guest who's been part of the dot net 17 00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:32.079 rocks U environment, if you will, for ever since we can remember show 18 00:01:32.159 --> 00:01:36.920 seventeen you I tell people how did how did Hansel Minutes start? Right? 19 00:01:37.239 --> 00:01:41.200 It's because Carl Franklin called me eighteen years ago and he said, why don't 20 00:01:41.239 --> 00:01:44.719 you have a podcast? In your answer? And I saw podcast sucks? 21 00:01:47.079 --> 00:01:49.519 And then he said, well, I dare you to make one better? 22 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:53.200 Yeah, And I said, well, fine, I will all but you 23 00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:57.840 know, to your credit, though, what you really meant to say was 24 00:01:57.959 --> 00:02:02.040 the podcast that I've heard it sucks. So when I said podcasting sucks, 25 00:02:02.040 --> 00:02:06.159 I want to point out that there were only like five podcasts because it was 26 00:02:06.280 --> 00:02:10.719 twenty years ago, but it was because so many podcasts were just a bunch 27 00:02:10.719 --> 00:02:16.800 of idiots sitting around jabberin. And now podcasts are just Instagram reels with a 28 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:23.000 bunch of idiots at around with their headphones on. So, yeah, welcome 29 00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:27.680 to our podcast commute. And then then they say the weirdest you know, 30 00:02:27.719 --> 00:02:30.800 it's like, did you read that article in New Yorker about how cinnamon cures 31 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:35.319 diabetes? And then they then that goes viral and then we have to talk 32 00:02:35.360 --> 00:02:38.560 about how that's not true. Right, yeah, over and over again. 33 00:02:38.599 --> 00:02:42.159 But yeah, I appreciate it very much. Carl. You supported me for 34 00:02:42.319 --> 00:02:45.960 gosh five hundred episodes. Yeah, you know, edited produced a handsome and 35 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:50.520 it would not exist without well, thanks Carl Franklin family. I remember being 36 00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:53.680 at the first time I met you was at an RD meeting and we were 37 00:02:54.400 --> 00:03:00.800 talking about I think we were talking about Joseph Campbell of all people, and 38 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:05.360 maybe the hero's journey. The hero's journey and how you know the similarities between 39 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:12.159 cultures and the religions and the things that manifest themselves related it to c Sharp, 40 00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:14.879 that's awesome. You're like, yeah, it is kind of like that. 41 00:03:14.919 --> 00:03:16.240 We just love my analogies. Oh. It was great, And I 42 00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:17.639 was like, all right, this is a smart guy. I want to 43 00:03:17.639 --> 00:03:21.520 get to nybody. Did you want to do the open Yeah, let's do 44 00:03:21.560 --> 00:03:32.439 the open framework music. All right, dude, what do you got? 45 00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:37.080 I came across this and I said, this has got to be the better 46 00:03:37.120 --> 00:03:44.319 no framework for Scott Hansman, because he's such a Commodore nerd. This is 47 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:51.120 eight bit due retro mechanical keyboard C sixty four edition, programmable keys, intuitive 48 00:03:51.159 --> 00:03:55.719 controls. It's a keyboard for your PC that looks like the Commodore with the 49 00:03:55.840 --> 00:04:00.120 rainbow logo and all of that. Oh my god, just that on March 50 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:06.719 twenty nine. Of course it has been on pre order with a July shipping 51 00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:11.360 date, and it turns out that it is going to be arriving Wednesday. 52 00:04:12.039 --> 00:04:15.879 That's also Now, this was just convergent thinking, right. I mean, 53 00:04:15.919 --> 00:04:17.560 you found it just probably the same time. And I wore a Commore sixty 54 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:23.639 four T shirt yesterday. Nice and at dev Intersections on stage with you, 55 00:04:24.040 --> 00:04:28.920 we asked chat ChiPT through a Commodore sixty four. We had a Commoce sixty 56 00:04:28.920 --> 00:04:34.439 four live on stage. We used a BBS software great to simulate talking to 57 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:38.360 a bulletin board. You can go and the young people can google for that 58 00:04:38.519 --> 00:04:44.240 with bing and we got we bbs'd into an Ubuntu VM, ran a Python 59 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:47.759 script he called chat chept and asked it to run and write a sixty five 60 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:51.399 oh two assembler and then say Hello World and then run it on the Commodore 61 00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:58.519 sixty four. Why because it's awesome, because it's a lot of hoops. 62 00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:02.279 HiT's retro too. It was a lovely Commodore sixty four user group active. 63 00:05:02.439 --> 00:05:05.879 Yeah, in the Portland area. We meet kit. We meet at Kingpins 64 00:05:05.879 --> 00:05:10.000 in Beaverton. You're more than welcome to join us. That's phenomenal. How 65 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:12.720 do I mean the traces a got to be falling off those boards? Man? 66 00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:15.959 No, Man, so we do. You can actually go and search 67 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:20.279 for a C sixty four cap kite, get and recap. So like if 68 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:25.279 you talk to a Commodore or the x Spectrum or an Amiga person, you 69 00:05:25.279 --> 00:05:28.360 say, oh, yeah, when was the last time you recapped the board? 70 00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:32.000 Yeah? I had a fifteen seventy one Commodore disk drive and it had 71 00:05:32.120 --> 00:05:35.480 magic smoke come out of it. All right, they do, and I 72 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:39.720 I got to recap it. And you go and you buy all new capacitors 73 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:42.639 you disordered the boards and your redo them and they'll live forever. Yeah, 74 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:46.319 that's moving part. I just have one question before we get started. Can 75 00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:49.800 I buy a pair of Crocs? I I I've been, I have moved, 76 00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:55.120 I have so I made a video where I three D printed a pair 77 00:05:55.160 --> 00:06:00.720 of croc like not Crocs, and people have told, I mean the comments 78 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:03.759 that they are very litigious. They are simply plastic shoes, yes, with 79 00:06:03.800 --> 00:06:06.959 a with a passing resemblance, Yeah to Crocs. There you go. I 80 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:11.199 was worried that you had said the word Crocs in that video. They are 81 00:06:11.240 --> 00:06:14.439 not yasis, they are not easy slides. They are not Crocs. Okay, 82 00:06:14.519 --> 00:06:16.759 that's what you made him for your son wear them is not They're too 83 00:06:16.759 --> 00:06:20.839 slippery, slippery ron material material. Yeah, I get change. It puts 84 00:06:20.839 --> 00:06:26.120 like they're missing that Crocs magic. This episode is brought to you by Crocs. 85 00:06:27.319 --> 00:06:29.639 All right, Well, Richard, who's talking to us? I grabbed 86 00:06:29.639 --> 00:06:31.920 a comment of the show eight hundred because why wouldn't I go eleven hundred shows 87 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:34.920 back? Right? But you know, we always have fun with our ad 88 00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:40.120 shows. And when we made show eight hundred and twenty twelve, our guests 89 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:45.160 were Scott Hanselman and Rob Connery. Yeah, so it was like the podcaster 90 00:06:45.319 --> 00:06:48.720 gang. And there's like thirty something comments on this show, like it's huge, 91 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:54.439 lots of chatter, just you know, it was fun. But I'll 92 00:06:54.439 --> 00:07:00.000 read James McLachlan's comment from eleven years ago he started with Avengers Assemble. Okay, 93 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:04.920 wow, Yeah, Marvel Universe has been going on that long. Yeah. 94 00:07:04.959 --> 00:07:09.279 This episode is like all my favorite podcasts put together, very interesting behind 95 00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:13.600 the scenes glimpse of how you guys all do it. Scott's comment about asking 96 00:07:13.639 --> 00:07:17.160 potentially stupid sounding questions really resonated with me. If I'm to build something for 97 00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:20.759 someone, I'd rather keep going over it until we're both convinced that I've got 98 00:07:20.759 --> 00:07:25.160 it. I don't want to go away giving the other person the impression that 99 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:28.879 I understand and then build something incorrect. I also don't want to keep going 100 00:07:28.920 --> 00:07:31.399 back with questions about things that the other person thought were settled. It serves 101 00:07:31.439 --> 00:07:34.600 everyone better when you spend all the time up front to come with a common 102 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:39.360 understanding, even if it means you have to take a credibility hit up front. 103 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:43.439 Remember Jane McLoughlin, he's from the UK. Yeah, and when you 104 00:07:43.480 --> 00:07:46.879 come back and the exact thing is built, you look like a pro very 105 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:50.920 nice. Yeah. No, And the comment about asking potentially dumb questions that 106 00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:57.120 the whole my whole podcast is to me asking dumb questions. Someone asked me 107 00:07:57.199 --> 00:08:00.560 how I did so many episodes. I know that I'm not in teen hundred. 108 00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:03.639 I'm only at nine hundred and fifty. Ire. But the trick is 109 00:08:05.079 --> 00:08:07.879 if people email you and say, hey, can I pick your brain and 110 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:11.240 buy you coffee? Right, that's annoying. Yeah, But if they say, 111 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:13.439 hey, would you come on my podcast, that's not annoying. Yeah. 112 00:08:13.480 --> 00:08:16.759 But it's the same exact thing. It is pretty much just right. 113 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:18.720 Yeah, yeah it is. I have no business talking to these but that 114 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:22.560 is one of the secrets, isn't it. James, thanks so much. 115 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:24.639 You're a comment at a copy of music code by. It's on its way 116 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:26.360 to you, And if you'd like a copy of music cod buy, I 117 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:28.839 write a comment on the website at Donna at rocks dot com or on the 118 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:31.680 facebooks. We publish every show there, and if you comment there and every 119 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:33.759 ready on the show, we'll send you a copy of music to go buy 120 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:35.159 and you can follow us. So it's very smooth. I'm sorry, can 121 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:39.639 we don't know that? He does that live every time? And people when 122 00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:41.679 we do live shows, they're like, what, yeah, the look on 123 00:08:41.720 --> 00:08:45.559 their faces when we do a live show and I rip that out and they're 124 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:48.960 like the part that I was missing though, was the part like the prescription 125 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:52.799 drug part where you go music to code may cause a dumble distinction, but 126 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:58.639 do not talk to music to code. That's three x speed maker. None 127 00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:01.360 of these. It's been valid by the FAA. Very nice. Talk to 128 00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:05.759 your doctor before rocks. Anyway. You can follow us on x Twitter, 129 00:09:05.799 --> 00:09:09.559 which is what I'm calling it now, get it x Twitter. I refuse 130 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:13.440 to call it x Yeah. Yeah, we're in the same boat. We've 131 00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:16.879 been on there for a long long time. But all the cool kids are 132 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:20.320 hanging out. I'm asked done, I'm at Carl Franklin at techot dot social, 133 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:22.559 and I'm Rich Campbell at mastadon dot social. Do you have a mask 134 00:09:22.600 --> 00:09:26.399 don account? So I do, and I can give you a cool tip. 135 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:30.399 If you just search for at Scott dot hansone dot com, you'll find 136 00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:33.600 me. I'm actually on hackyderm right, But you can use a thing called 137 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:37.080 web finger. You put a single file on you know, Franklin's dot net 138 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:43.320 or on Campbell Associates, and then it will be a pointer to or where 139 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:45.879 you are. So you can just look for my first name and at my 140 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:48.320 last name and you'll find me. It's very good. That's awesome. Yeah, 141 00:09:48.399 --> 00:09:50.679 yeah, should do that. I'm also on threads, air Chat, 142 00:09:52.279 --> 00:09:56.519 Instagram. I have a list of all those at Carl Franklin dot com. 143 00:09:56.559 --> 00:09:58.360 So tell people I'm on all of them. I'm only set up the finger. 144 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:03.720 I think that's good. I yeah, okay. So we haven't formally 145 00:10:03.879 --> 00:10:07.360 introduced Scott, but if if you haven't listened to him lately, he is 146 00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:11.159 now vice president of Developer Community. Congratulations, What is that? What is 147 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:13.480 that about? I don't know what crazy? Is that? What a weird 148 00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:20.360 complicent capitalism? You so? Uh, it's but you know, I didn't 149 00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:22.559 want this show, and neither did Richard to be you know, three old 150 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:28.679 guys talk about the old days, get off my lawn. But it turns 151 00:10:28.679 --> 00:10:33.200 out that, you know, that's a really valid point of view that may 152 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:37.559 be missing in some conversations. Maybe not the get off my lawn part. 153 00:10:37.559 --> 00:10:41.720 But we did the show with Sean Wildermuth about you know, the aging senior 154 00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:45.799 developer and you know, the decisions that we make in our older years about 155 00:10:45.799 --> 00:10:48.279 what do we want to do next? Yeah, and it resonated with the 156 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:52.879 listeners. We weren't sure if it was going to, but it really did. 157 00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:56.639 And then follow that up with Aaron Erickson's show, Yeah, who is 158 00:10:56.679 --> 00:11:00.519 also a fifty something developer, but he was the nomadic developer while he mages 159 00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:03.679 ago and now he's he's working and he did all the jobs. He's been 160 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:07.519 a consultant, and then he went into a he dabbled with some other companies. 161 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:11.200 Then he did a startup that I moved to San Francisco did. The 162 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:13.799 startup failed horribly, but it was an AI start up, and he got 163 00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:18.519 hired by Nvidia and now he's working with then Video on large language model stuff. 164 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:22.879 But the Energizer Bunny still just going and yet super excited down. I 165 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:26.360 just thought it was a really interesting set of shows to think in terms of, 166 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:30.600 you know, what did you want from your career? Like you've got 167 00:11:30.600 --> 00:11:33.399 your VP. I don't know if that was a goal for you. Well, 168 00:11:33.559 --> 00:11:41.039 so now that I'm on the downslope, on the way out, I 169 00:11:41.080 --> 00:11:46.360 have thought about what my identity is. It's not my company. I was, 170 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:50.159 never ever was, never has been. I feel like I'm a teacher. 171 00:11:50.600 --> 00:11:52.600 I was a teacher before, I'll be a teacher after. All of 172 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:58.480 my vibes are teachery. Now that I'm older, I've been told that I 173 00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:01.679 give off big dad energy. Yeah, So that I think is a position 174 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:05.600 that I will happily take. Yeah. And my job is to make the 175 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:09.039 kids successful, whether it be my own kids or whether it be early in 176 00:12:09.080 --> 00:12:13.159 career people regardless of their age. Because there's a lot of great forty somethings 177 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:18.360 career switchers yet early in career. So on my way out, the question 178 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:22.159 is who is the next Richard Campbell, Who's the next Carl Franklin, Who's 179 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:24.879 the next you know, Angie Jones. How do we make these great new 180 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:28.360 developers that are maybe in their twenties, yeah, or are in their forties 181 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:31.919 and their career switchers. So that's that's my goal. I want to pay 182 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:35.080 you a compliment of data you paid me one early on. When I think 183 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:39.360 of you, one word comes to mind, and that's integrity. Oh absolutely. 184 00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:45.480 You spoke truth when truth needed to be heard and wasn't very popular, 185 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:50.399 and you still do that to this day. That's very kind. Thank you 186 00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:52.120 for that. Well, it's very true, and I think a lot of 187 00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:54.200 people will agree with me. Sure. No, When I folks ask me 188 00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:58.960 about you, I talk about your diabetes video, watching you do your routine, 189 00:13:00.759 --> 00:13:01.840 Oh yeah, and then to me. It's always the thing of it 190 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:05.720 doesn't matter that you I think you're a thirty something when you did that video 191 00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:09.799 and Lord, but you're still flinch. Oh it hurts. Yeah, Its 192 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:11.799 like does it hurt to the needle hurt? No? They yes, they 193 00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:13.360 hurt. It's a needle, look at it. I remember being on the 194 00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:16.919 phone with you before we did a handsome minutes one day and you were like, 195 00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:20.240 hang on one second. I got a jab myself and it sounded like 196 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:22.840 a horror movie, you know. I'm like, Oh, I'm so sorry. 197 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:26.039 You know. Yep. No, it's your life a glckle pilot. 198 00:13:26.039 --> 00:13:28.519 And none of us are getting out of this alive. No, no are 199 00:13:28.600 --> 00:13:33.879 at all. But back to the the the old programmer thing m M. 200 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:41.320 The thing that we can offer is kind and patient mentorship and historical context exactly 201 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:46.399 knows. I love historical context, and I love the enthusiasm of the earli 202 00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:48.279 in career developer of the young person. I love how excited they are about 203 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:52.919 stuff. And I don't want to bring stop energy. And one of the 204 00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:58.120 things that we as as older as elders will say, have a tendency to 205 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:01.399 do is bring stop energy. Yeah, it's to get off my lawnman. 206 00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:03.879 Yeah, oh we did that. Oh go man, we did that before. 207 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:05.200 Yeah, yeah, and why would you do that? That's a lot 208 00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:09.159 of work. Instead of no, we did that before and you shouldn't do 209 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:11.279 it now, we go, yeah, okay, I can see why you'd 210 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:15.320 want to do that. Here's what we learned when we tried. Yeah, 211 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:18.360 exactly, yes, and yeah, yeah, take and take them forward on 212 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:22.639 it. Certainly be enthusiastic with all the possibilities that are out there. Oh 213 00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:28.360 yeah. I mean I'm the fifty something still in the speaking circuit and most 214 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:30.480 of the speakers are into thirties now, and they're like, there are a 215 00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:33.159 great crop of speakers. There's a bunch of very very exciting speakers out there 216 00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:35.559 right now, and they're doing a lot of really cool stuff. And I 217 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:39.720 think we're also starting to see uh and I always like to see speakers that 218 00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:43.799 build first and then talk. Yeah. You can really really easily get pulled 219 00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:48.399 into the quote unquote international technical speaking circuit and all you do is talk about 220 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:50.519 stuff. Yeah, and you know, yeah, go make things, go 221 00:14:50.559 --> 00:14:52.919 make things that disappear, and then talk about what you made, because I 222 00:14:52.919 --> 00:14:56.720 want to know what you made. When I was wondering where you were. 223 00:14:56.159 --> 00:15:01.000 Where are they? They're off making stuff they were making so generation and I 224 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:03.559 don't want to be the In my day we use punch cards and we liked 225 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:09.000 it. Guy, But our generation saw the evolution of computing from you know, 226 00:15:09.159 --> 00:15:11.080 maybe just after punch cards, you know, to the PC, certain 227 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:16.720 from the PC certainly all the way up to now. And there is some 228 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:22.960 I don't know. Would you say that we came of age there and there 229 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:28.960 were fewer people maybe following that curve as there are now, and you know, 230 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:31.679 so it's easy to because there were less of us, too easier to 231 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:37.120 fall into the success or do you think that now with so many things being 232 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:39.840 so easy? All right, let me give you an example what you just 233 00:15:39.879 --> 00:15:43.720 talked about with hacking this common or sixty four and BBS's and stuff. You 234 00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:46.120 know, we've been doing stuff like that the whole time on the bleeding edge 235 00:15:46.120 --> 00:15:50.519 where things were people didn't know you could do what we did, and so 236 00:15:50.600 --> 00:15:54.200 you're like, wow, you can do that. It's really much a meritocracy 237 00:15:54.679 --> 00:15:58.200 in my career. Anyway, you can do that, you're hired. You 238 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:03.519 can do that, you're hired. Whereas now there's so much information out there. 239 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:07.600 It's easier for people in some way to get in on it and learn 240 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:11.399 things quickly. But are they as motivated or is there a difference? Let 241 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:15.240 me let me train it like this. It's easier to get the information. 242 00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:19.720 It is harder to get noticed. When we were starting up, there were 243 00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:22.840 like two or three books. You're in the basement. You have a question, 244 00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:26.279 you can go on fighto net or comfee serve and you can wait a 245 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:30.279 couple of days. You send a box top to kelloggause you get back a 246 00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:34.240 toy in six to eight weeks. Right, there's no idea of like skyping 247 00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:38.799 a friend. All right, you're writing on CompuServe to Dan Appleman about his 248 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:42.039 win thirty two books. Dan Appleman wrote me back, and he wrote me 249 00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:45.440 back always, and he wrote fast. At one point I literally said to 250 00:16:45.559 --> 00:16:48.080 I don't understand how you're doing this, and he's like, yeah, I 251 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:52.320 don't get as many questions as you think. I disagree. I'm sure Dan 252 00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:55.679 Alman gets that brilliant, lovely guy. No. One of my inspirations, 253 00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:56.840 like when I grew up, I want to be Dan Appleman like he he 254 00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:03.000 was so kind. I want to Actually I have three favorite Dans small, 255 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:06.039 small side thing. If this was a book, this would be the little 256 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:08.200 box in the corner of the book with the off site. You got your 257 00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:12.480 Dan Appleman, lovely, you got your Dan Bricklin, Yes, made visit 258 00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:17.279 account right, and then you got your Dan Schiffman from the coding train, 259 00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:19.960 Oh, processing wrote a processing language. Lovely. You want to just meet 260 00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:26.559 who's the mister Rogers or the the the Bob Ross of programming, Dan Schiffman. 261 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:32.039 So because it's harder to get noticed now, do you think is like 262 00:17:32.119 --> 00:17:37.319 the current environment of social media TikTok stars and all of that, where people 263 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:40.759 want and to get noticed for being a developer, it takes too long? 264 00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:42.599 Like is that a barrier? I'm trying to figure out, Like, what's 265 00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:48.480 the difference between what challenges that young people have today that we may have had 266 00:17:48.519 --> 00:17:52.559 Differently? There is the getting noticed, but there's also the does getting noticed 267 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:55.440 matter? Yeah? Yeah, right? There are lots and lots. I 268 00:17:55.480 --> 00:17:59.960 still stand by my my blog post about Dark Matter developers so many years ago 269 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:06.160 that said that there are a ton of For every one Twitter star, there's 270 00:18:06.200 --> 00:18:08.039 a thousand people that are just doing the job, doing the work, and 271 00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:14.519 they're doing great, and they're well known in their space, and that's fine. 272 00:18:14.599 --> 00:18:17.119 I don't think Twitter. And when I say Twitter, I'm using the 273 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:21.680 word like Kleenex. The brand name Twitter means all of social media. All 274 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:26.079 you have to be a YouTuber. There's a lot of introverted people out there 275 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:30.440 that have no reason to be on Twitter, but they can consume, right. 276 00:18:30.519 --> 00:18:36.279 I just think that we see the glamor, but we are algorithms, 277 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:40.799 algorithmically designed to make us feel bad about ourselves. Right, So don't look 278 00:18:40.839 --> 00:18:45.960 to Twitter and somebody's freaking GitHub graph And I agree, comparison is a thief 279 00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:48.599 of joy. Work on yourself. The only person you should be comparing yourself 280 00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:53.440 against is you yesterday. I agree, see how podcasting same thing. Like 281 00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:56.160 we both got into it. We all got into it very early on, 282 00:18:56.440 --> 00:19:02.079 and that's why at Rocks and Handsome and nets became very popular, arguably because 283 00:19:02.359 --> 00:19:07.559 we were the go to places to listen to for dot neis essentially, and 284 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:11.440 now everybody and their brother has a podcast. And I love when somebody tells 285 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:15.880 me, have you heard of podcasting? I look going, but people ask 286 00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:18.440 me for advice about podcasting, and I do have to tell them that you 287 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:23.359 have to grind nobody listened to the first hundred episodes, so my show. 288 00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:27.400 That true. Very few listened to the last hundred episode. But you know, 289 00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:30.599 like the first hundred were grind So then you just ask yourself, well, 290 00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:33.680 what's a good number, and people like, well, if I don't 291 00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:37.319 get a thousand, I don't. It doesn't make you get more than one. 292 00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:41.599 Right, did anyone listen Who's not your mom? That's awesome, you 293 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:44.799 got ten listeners. That was never the motivation. Ten x. No, 294 00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:47.039 it was never the motive. It was never the motivation. It was the 295 00:19:47.079 --> 00:19:49.599 conversations, right, you know, and you said this offline, but let's 296 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:52.359 you know, it wasn't the show. Actually I can't even remember now, 297 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:57.559 pretty consistent that the bugging from somebody to have coffee with them is annoying, 298 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:00.319 but asked them to come to the podcast is not. But they're actually the 299 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:03.240 same thing. They are the same thing. And I would encourage people, 300 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:08.640 if you are having great conversations to document them right about to share them. 301 00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:11.160 It doesn't matter so that other people can feel connected. Well, and that 302 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:15.839 was your line right as you saw Rocky and Billy arguing over the first version 303 00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:18.000 of dot net and thought everybody should hear. Everybody should hear this conversation. 304 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:22.799 Yeah, because it was two really great minds that there were a couple of 305 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:23.799 times. I don't know if we actually did a show, but we did 306 00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:30.160 attempt to record conversations in the lobbies of hotels, because there's this magic that 307 00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:33.519 happened somewhere around nine to thirty in the lobby of the Hilton after the you 308 00:20:33.559 --> 00:20:36.880 know the thing, and everyone's kind of quiet and tired, and they're coming 309 00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:38.920 down from an exciting day one or day two. Yeah, and then they're 310 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:41.680 reflective, and then there's just VI. We did a show Dot and Rock's 311 00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:44.839 called The Speaker's Lounge, and you were on it, and I will be 312 00:20:44.920 --> 00:20:48.400 quizzing you about these shows after the break. I don't remember any of the 313 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:52.160 things that you said. I'm worrying them multiple choice and yeah, it was 314 00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:55.400 very much like that. And that was the reason, because we all had 315 00:20:55.400 --> 00:20:59.640 these great conversations in the hallways outside or in the speaker's line literally trying to 316 00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:03.440 catch or the hallway track, right. But you make the point, it's 317 00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:06.240 like there were certain times in the day where you're more reflective and it's a 318 00:21:06.519 --> 00:21:10.000 great time to catch a story. Nighttime quiet is the time for me. 319 00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:12.319 That's what I'm reflective or when I'm retired. Well, I definitely remember you 320 00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:17.119 and I doing like a handsol minutia in the corner of a lobby of a 321 00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:21.839 hotel somewhere and in the evening and you know, just riffing. My most 322 00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:30.160 fond lobby of a hotel moment was in Stockholm and you busted out a guitar, 323 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:33.880 which he started doing. What did you do? I've got the video. 324 00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:40.039 I was recording on a flipcam. Nice what this is pre smartphone and 325 00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:44.039 you had a guitar and you just busted out some I don't know what it 326 00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:45.880 was it was. I'm not a classic rock guy, but you just started 327 00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:49.720 started busking in the middle of the lobby of the hotel and I had a 328 00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:52.880 flip phonel like me. It was freaking amazing. Yeah, you know what 329 00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:56.200 I mean. Definitely said a vibe. So, speaking of music, I 330 00:21:56.279 --> 00:22:02.680 experienced this from the opposite side in music right in the music business. I 331 00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:07.119 am not popular. I did not ride the wave of the sixties and seventies, 332 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:08.440 and I wasn't in the right place at the right time in la when 333 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:12.920 the things were happening. But so the music business. You know, I 334 00:22:12.920 --> 00:22:18.359 feel like I was born too late to be noticed, and so by the 335 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:22.119 time I was good enough as an artist, according to me, to create 336 00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:26.440 an album, it was harder and harder, like albums didn't exist anymore, 337 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:30.440 and oh, now we're in cassettes. So then I started making home cassettes. 338 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:33.799 But you know, and then CDs, and I thought, okay, 339 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:37.839 I'll make a CD. By the time I was able to afford studio production 340 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:41.839 and make a CD that was right on the right about the time where people 341 00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:45.720 didn't want CDs anymore. So I kind of feel ripped off a little bit. 342 00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:48.240 But now that vinyl is coming back, I'm actually going to do a 343 00:22:48.279 --> 00:22:51.680 vinyl album. I would buy a Carl Franklin vinyl press. Wouldn't be cool, 344 00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:53.160 that'd be amazing. It's not going to be cheap either, but it's 345 00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:57.480 going to be full of Kickstarter Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But also, 346 00:22:57.599 --> 00:23:03.440 you know, it's interesting with that vinyl movement is really the music as ceremony. 347 00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:06.440 Yes, one thing I don't know people know this, but you and 348 00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:08.319 I have been hanging around with each other for a fairly long time, fairly 349 00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:11.480 long time, and one thing I know about you, you do love to 350 00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:14.880 play, but you want people to listen. Yeah, you are not willing 351 00:23:14.920 --> 00:23:18.559 to be background noise. It's very soul draining when I have those and you're 352 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:21.160 you're volunteering, you're not being paid, Like you're just going to play. 353 00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:23.200 I just want to play. Yeah, Home at Last. Okay, that 354 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:26.480 was the song. That was a song that's one of your favorites. It 355 00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:32.480 was I did a video of that actress, a silver video. You did 356 00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:37.799 a video with you playing each individual yeah thing. It was an experimenting video 357 00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:42.000 for you as well as you're using the civil publishing engine. It was very 358 00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:45.319 Jacob Callier. Uh, you were you know what I mean. You were 359 00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:51.000 just riffing and like it was very early earlier on because people now do those 360 00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:52.920 kind of videos all the time, where like you bring in the next person 361 00:23:52.920 --> 00:23:56.599 and it's the same guy in a different run and the Battle of Woodford and 362 00:23:56.640 --> 00:24:00.519 every shot shot. I did a better one called Waiting for the Summer to 363 00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:06.839 Come where I actually had one shot with all me in it in four different 364 00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:10.240 instruments at the same time, and I can zoom and pan across it. 365 00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:15.519 It's really cool. I remember that one too. But anyway, so I'm 366 00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:18.640 wondering what developers that are younger think. I mean, are the golden years 367 00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:23.559 of software development gone? Does it matter that Gen Z and millennials didn't grow 368 00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:27.200 up on the bleeding edge? Does it? Does having more choices today from 369 00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:32.359 sophisticated tools and platforms make it easier or harder to break in? You talked 370 00:24:32.359 --> 00:24:36.400 about this makes it harder to get noticed. But do you You told me 371 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:40.400 that your goal now is to be the mister rogers of development and sort of 372 00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:44.519 talk to the young people. What kind of feedback are you getting from the 373 00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:49.079 young people that about writing software, about you know, the things that we 374 00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:55.000 were doing versus now today. I think that the stack is really deep, 375 00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:59.920 yeah, and most people go kind of to HTTP and not much far. 376 00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:04.400 I think that a lot of things that we learned building home networks, you 377 00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:08.079 just buy a you know, Google Mesh or whatever and it just just works. 378 00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:12.519 So I'll make a comment about you know, rest, and then we'll 379 00:25:12.519 --> 00:25:18.200 start talking about HDDP, and then we're talking about TCP and then we hit 380 00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:23.400 we hit the granite very quickly and magic network stuff. Yeah, and then 381 00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:30.119 and then a miracle happens. I love it. I mean, I you 382 00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:33.559 know, we're all storytellers here, and I do know. I can engage 383 00:25:33.559 --> 00:25:36.759 people to take them down through the stack and those things, and they often 384 00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:41.960 are interested. Uh it's not always try to ask first. But you talk 385 00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:45.039 about the old guy know. The old guy know is well I had to 386 00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:48.240 learn this before I could work, so you have to learn this before ye, 387 00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:52.799 right, So the example that I give, uh, you know, 388 00:25:52.839 --> 00:25:55.839 and to try to give a gender non specific old guy know here, which 389 00:25:55.920 --> 00:26:00.240 is the my sixteen year old wants to drive, so should he learn how 390 00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:04.200 to drive stick? And the fact is he doesn't need to drive stick, 391 00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:07.720 not in America, you know, if in Europe, or he wants to 392 00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:12.720 experience far fag Neugan. You know, in America three to four percent of 393 00:26:12.759 --> 00:26:17.799 cars are stick. In Europe it's more like fifty or sixty. But the 394 00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:19.960 point is he lives here. So then the question is, well, uber 395 00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:22.720 is a thing. Well, we don't live in a big, big city. 396 00:26:23.240 --> 00:26:29.680 But there are perfectly cromulent New Yorkers that are living their lives without ever 397 00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:33.640 having gotten their licenses. My stepdaughter is one of them. And that's fine. 398 00:26:33.880 --> 00:26:38.039 So if I were to insist and say, well, young man, 399 00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:42.279 you have to change your oil and change your tire and learn how to drive 400 00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:45.720 stick. And then I'll give you an automatic and you have to learn how 401 00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:49.160 to code an assembler and debug a dump, and then I'll give you a 402 00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:56.640 garbage collector. That would be disrespectful, but to let them know that the 403 00:26:56.680 --> 00:27:00.160 information is available if they want. I always have been couraged, and people 404 00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:03.799 who've heard me before we'll say that, yeah, this is your handsleman. 405 00:27:03.799 --> 00:27:07.000 It's like six phrases, but take the level that you're currently working at and 406 00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:11.319 go one level below your comfort zone. So if you're a JavaScript person, 407 00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:14.119 like understand how V eight works. If you are a dottinet person, how 408 00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:18.240 does the CLR work. You don't have to learn how to like smelt your 409 00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:22.519 own iron or generate electricity, right. You don't have to take the rock 410 00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:26.759 and inject lightning and make it think. But it's it's nice to have a 411 00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:30.880 sense of systems thinking and how these things all shut together. And I will 412 00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:34.000 say though, that there are people, there are personalities, there are types 413 00:27:34.039 --> 00:27:38.319 of people who are naturally systems thinkers. One of the stories that I love 414 00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:44.519 to tell was doing a Black Girl's Code presentation, and I was saying, 415 00:27:44.680 --> 00:27:47.200 we're gonna learn how to code. We're going to debug a problem. Hey, 416 00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:49.279 let's debug a problem. All the kids all have fourteen fifteen year old 417 00:27:49.319 --> 00:27:52.240 high school kids, and I said, all right, everybody, my toaster 418 00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:56.599 is broken. And I pause and I make it really awkward, and I 419 00:27:56.640 --> 00:27:59.279 say, I really want toast. And they're like, well, you should 420 00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:00.359 buy a new toaster, and I said, that's one way to solve it. 421 00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:03.240 We can probably do that. But what if I buy a new toaster 422 00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:06.200 and it doesn't work? And then someone's like, well, is there is 423 00:28:06.200 --> 00:28:08.400 there any electricity? Is there power? And they're all sitting there thinking, 424 00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:12.359 and then one girl in the back yells out, do the neighbors have power? 425 00:28:12.920 --> 00:28:18.200 Look outside? Are the lights on on the street. We're talking about 426 00:28:18.359 --> 00:28:23.279 toast. All I wanted was hot bread and and And that's a that's a 427 00:28:23.319 --> 00:28:30.200 programmer, Like whoever she is, she's wired. She's like, it's probably 428 00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:37.319 DNS. Look outside, it's okay. But the fundamental the the like going 429 00:28:37.319 --> 00:28:40.599 from point A to point D or point G. That's how programmers like to 430 00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:42.960 bug things. And the fact that she was able to go I understand the 431 00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:47.559 system in which the toaster exists, and exists in one where power is a 432 00:28:47.559 --> 00:28:51.599 thing, right, and maybe maybe the neighborhood had of power out it. 433 00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:55.920 Yeah, that's great, it's great context. I've also come to be really 434 00:28:55.960 --> 00:28:59.119 comfortable with the idea that they're not only different species of programmers, but they're 435 00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:03.000 all and there are that are their best selves. You know. They're not 436 00:29:03.079 --> 00:29:04.559 all developers are the same. They're not even close to the same. You 437 00:29:04.599 --> 00:29:07.720 know. It's one of the biggest problems you deal with is folks thinking, 438 00:29:07.720 --> 00:29:10.720 well, I can plug any programming to any problem. It's just not true. 439 00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:14.400 You know, certainly, working around Microsoft as I have for so many 440 00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:15.440 years, it's like, do you know how many places are to work where 441 00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:21.599 you write programming languages like five? And the folks that are good at that, 442 00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:26.920 that love that, they're a different species and it's the same like building 443 00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:30.480 great teams over the years is like that guy loves networking, he's got a 444 00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:33.400 knack for it. Like that's the piece he wants to follow your bliss. 445 00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:37.119 Yeah, following your bliss and value each of them. And good leaders go 446 00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:41.720 and put the puzzle pieces together. Well, everybody doing their favorite thing, 447 00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:44.640 and it makes the whole thing. Scott Hunter likes to say, if you're 448 00:29:44.680 --> 00:29:48.160 putting together a team, a basketball team. You should hire for height, 449 00:29:49.759 --> 00:29:52.519 right, So I don't care. I don't care about your I've tid this 450 00:29:52.519 --> 00:29:56.119 before. I don't care about your degree, where you came from, your 451 00:29:56.559 --> 00:30:00.319 your native language. If you're tall, I can teach you the ballhand and 452 00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:03.039 dribbling. Yeah, so like, oh I learned you know, like I 453 00:30:03.079 --> 00:30:07.119 learned JavaScript. Okay, we'll teach a C sharp. I learned rust, 454 00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:08.559 Okay, we'll teach a VB. Or it's easier. It's easier for a 455 00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:12.079 tall person to just put the ball, just just put it in exactly, 456 00:30:12.200 --> 00:30:15.279 just reach over. And and of course to our friends who may not get 457 00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:19.279 that analogy we were talking about like intellectual height, just like if you're if 458 00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:26.279 you're professionally curious, if you're excited. One of my most favorite programmers is 459 00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:30.000 Sofia Abdullah on the sp dot net team. She's so grat beast and I 460 00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:33.799 think she didn't even know C sharp when she came to work at the company. 461 00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:37.920 She was a Python person right now, but she you can see her 462 00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:41.839 like the matrix. She's putting code together in her brain and snapping things together. 463 00:30:42.279 --> 00:30:48.559 So it's not about the syntax, it's about just before we break here, 464 00:30:48.799 --> 00:30:53.680 my brother was an marine engineer naval architect, and so he went to 465 00:30:53.720 --> 00:30:57.200 school for an ann arbor for engineering, got his degree, and then he 466 00:30:57.279 --> 00:31:00.480 was like, I don't like this anymore. And I was like, yeah, 467 00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:03.480 you should get into programming. So he took a VB class. After 468 00:31:03.559 --> 00:31:07.519 graduating the VB class, he went right to work for a company learning Java, 469 00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:15.240 JavaScript, mumps like. There was like several languages that he learned and 470 00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:18.839 he's been there ever since because he could just adapt. He had the engineer 471 00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:22.880 brain. Yeah, and all of those examples that we're giving are examples of 472 00:31:22.200 --> 00:31:26.279 people feeling empowered, being empowered by the people around them, Like you're encouraging 473 00:31:26.359 --> 00:31:30.680 him, and I want the young people in the early in career of people 474 00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:33.640 the code switchers, to feel empowered. One of my faves is a gentleman 475 00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:38.319 named Lawrence who's on Twitter at Lawrence Codes. He was in the hospitality for 476 00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:41.960 twenty five years wow, and he started being curious about tech and he's like, 477 00:31:42.359 --> 00:31:45.839 there's no reason I can't do that? Why not me? Yeah? 478 00:31:45.880 --> 00:31:48.920 Yeah, yeah, why not be? Why not? That very powerful statement? 479 00:31:49.079 --> 00:31:52.240 Yeah? All right, well, before we move on, let's take 480 00:31:52.279 --> 00:32:00.480 this pause for a few very important messages we'll be right back. We're back. 481 00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:04.680 It's not in at Rocks. I'm Carl Franklin. That's Richard Campbell and 482 00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:07.000 our friend Scott Hansomen is here. It's show nineteen hundred. Can you believe 483 00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:12.240 it? I can? And I guess it's a quiz time. Well you're 484 00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:15.319 up, man, I was not told there would be a quiz, No 485 00:32:15.400 --> 00:32:20.519 way before we do the quiz. Is there anything that, any sole message 486 00:32:20.519 --> 00:32:22.960 that you want to tell the people from your perspective as a VP, from 487 00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:27.839 being here at build? What's the message if you if you like a thing, 488 00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:30.559 or if you don't like a thing, vote with your feet. Interesting, 489 00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:34.200 you have power, You have you power if you don't if you don't 490 00:32:34.279 --> 00:32:36.240 like it, tell people that you don't like it. If you like it, 491 00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:39.400 tell people that you like it. Microsoft is not a monolith. It's 492 00:32:39.440 --> 00:32:43.759 a big giant company. It's three hundred thousand people. Sure it's your quote 493 00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:46.000 that is that, Yeah, we are not organized enough to be as evil 494 00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:50.599 as you're accusing us of being. Oh yeah, yeah, we are not 495 00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:52.799 as organized as to be as evil as you think we are. Yeah. 496 00:32:52.839 --> 00:32:57.799 Absolutely, We're just a bunch of stormtroopers running around on the way each other 497 00:32:57.960 --> 00:33:00.480 way at each other in the desk star. No, but like, there's 498 00:33:00.519 --> 00:33:05.240 a lot of really smart people have empathy because every feature, every button, 499 00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:08.319 everything, every idea was a human behind it. And if you presume that 500 00:33:08.359 --> 00:33:13.440 they're doing their very best to make a fun and exciting and fair and safe 501 00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:16.400 and responsible private product for you, engage with those people because they're all out 502 00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:22.160 there. You don't see Apple engineers on social media. You can't just find 503 00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:28.960 the owner of the thing. No, they're strictly against Actually, Apple employees 504 00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:30.279 aren't allowed to a bit. They were for app. Yeah, to Microsoft's 505 00:33:30.279 --> 00:33:32.559 credit, if you like a thing, or you don't like a thing, 506 00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:36.839 you can find that person say hey, here's some feedback, and we'll usually 507 00:33:36.839 --> 00:33:39.680 listen. And I think I'm not off base by saying one of your catchphrases, 508 00:33:39.759 --> 00:33:44.240 don't be mean, don't be a dick, You'll get a lot further. 509 00:33:44.559 --> 00:33:45.559 Yeah, I actually had a T shirt I was going to wear it 510 00:33:45.559 --> 00:33:51.039 today that said work hard and be nice Nice, but it doesn't fit anymore. 511 00:33:52.039 --> 00:33:54.799 Well, there's a classic photo of you, is very old of you 512 00:33:54.839 --> 00:33:59.480 holding up a post it note that says why so mean? Yeah, I 513 00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:00.480 just think well should be pleasant, that's all. Yeah, I agree. 514 00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:04.079 All right, let's get into the quiz. So what I did was I 515 00:34:04.119 --> 00:34:07.960 went back through all the shows that you were ever in and I pulled out 516 00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:09.719 some questions that we asked you were things that you said, and we're going 517 00:34:09.800 --> 00:34:13.280 to see how well you're how good You do know that I am not known 518 00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:15.320 for a memory like I live in a so this should be a less one. 519 00:34:15.480 --> 00:34:19.920 I live in a blissful window of three days in either direction. All 520 00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:22.760 right, I don't know what's going on. First question in episode seventeen, 521 00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:29.679 published in March two thousand three, I asked you what is the one Windows 522 00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:34.159 tool you can't live without? And you said A seven zip, B, 523 00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:39.719 Dave's Search bar, or C open Office two thousand and three. I don't 524 00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:44.280 think that seven zip existed in two thousand and three. I think it was 525 00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:49.079 win rar for arg which you still haven't paid for. I did the research. 526 00:34:49.159 --> 00:34:52.119 Seven zip didn't did exist in two thousand and three. Two thousand and 527 00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:57.639 three. Dave's search bar. I like to quick run, slick run, 528 00:34:57.679 --> 00:35:00.800 and to open office, I would half to it's gonna be either it's not 529 00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:06.320 open Office, it's gonna be Dave's search bar, or it's gonna be seven 530 00:35:06.440 --> 00:35:08.239 zip pick one. Let's go with dave search bar. Here's the answer. 531 00:35:08.360 --> 00:35:12.480 You know, if I could say there's one tool that I would install Windows 532 00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:20.320 and then install that tool, it would be Dave's search bar. That's awesome. 533 00:35:20.440 --> 00:35:22.840 Oh my god. All right, here's here's to pull that out of 534 00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:25.559 the area. Well reasoned, good lord? Yeah, all right. So 535 00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:30.159 in episode fifty one from February two thousand and four, you told us you 536 00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:32.840 had laser surgery on your eyes. God, what you did? What was 537 00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:38.079 the startling fact that you discovered during this process that A the laser itself was 538 00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:44.199 hot pink, and you were waiting for Nurse Barbie to walk in. B 539 00:35:44.519 --> 00:35:47.480 you were surprised to learn you would not be under general anesthesia or C. 540 00:35:47.880 --> 00:35:52.760 The machine was running Windows ninety eight, see one hundred percent. I mentioned 541 00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:55.800 this yesterday, no kidding, because I was talking to Shandei piers person and 542 00:35:55.840 --> 00:36:00.719 she just got Lasik and I pulled out that out of the archives that I 543 00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:04.599 in fact had a very old here's the answer. I had laser surgery on 544 00:36:04.639 --> 00:36:07.039 my eyes a couple of days ago. Really, and damn it, if 545 00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:13.480 the machine wasn't running Windows ninety eight, I have nothing if not consent. 546 00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:16.440 It was Rory yeah, yeah, said really yeah, oh wow, yeah 547 00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:22.119 it was okay, you're You've battened a thousand so far. In episode seventy 548 00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:25.719 called The Speaker's Lounge, which we talked about, recorded July two thousand and 549 00:36:25.719 --> 00:36:30.480 four, you had sent me a bunch of topics that we could talk about. 550 00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:32.079 And when I asked you, what's on your mind? What did you 551 00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:38.960 answer? A? You were fascinated with the artist Usher, b the final 552 00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:44.679 episode of Friends made you weep like a baby, or see you forgot the 553 00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:49.480 list of topics? What year was this? Two thousand and four July two 554 00:36:49.559 --> 00:36:54.719 thousand and four, fascinated with Usher final episode of Friends made you cry? 555 00:36:54.920 --> 00:36:58.320 Or you forgot the list. I'm going to say it's Usher, but it's 556 00:36:58.360 --> 00:37:00.400 probably I forgot the list of topics. Here's the answer. So we want 557 00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:04.800 to know what's on your mind? And I guess Scott brought up some good 558 00:37:04.840 --> 00:37:07.840 topics. Scott, what's on your mind? Uh? I think I emailed 559 00:37:07.840 --> 00:37:14.400 it to you and then at that point I've forgotten it. I'm taking that 560 00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:19.239 one as the whim. Absolutely it should have been sure. I remember you 561 00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:22.880 and I planning out a handsel Manu show. Oh no, we've sort of 562 00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:24.400 padded some stuff back and forth what we were going to talk about. And 563 00:37:24.440 --> 00:37:30.039 then you went to Chipotle inevitably and got on their Wi Fi and their WiFi 564 00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:34.719 had been hijacked. Oh I remember. Then you came and when you got 565 00:37:34.760 --> 00:37:37.519 it like an hour later. We made this perfect planets like I'm going to 566 00:37:37.559 --> 00:37:38.719 get something, I'll come back and then we'll record. Okay, get back. 567 00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:42.800 We are only gonna talk about hijacked Wi fi from now on that whole 568 00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:46.880 show. They had a root kit on their on the Yeah, I became 569 00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:51.480 friends with the manager and I had to go and get the root kick off 570 00:37:51.480 --> 00:37:53.039 the router because it was you helped them. Yeah, it was great because 571 00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:58.280 it's my favorite Chipotlet use that Wi Fi that wife. It's as much it's 572 00:37:58.119 --> 00:38:01.800 a public service. And what was it was hijacking DNS. Yeah, sending 573 00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:05.760 people to bad signs. And I mean, I'm the kind of guy I 574 00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:07.280 also can roll with that too. I think we ended up talking. We 575 00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:12.320 didn't talk about all kinds of exploits going on. I'm impressed you pulled the 576 00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:15.239 audio. That's that's a nice you know me? I next level, man, 577 00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:19.599 I have these all right. So, an episode one hundred and seven 578 00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:23.679 with you and Rory Blythe recorded April two thousand and five, I asked you 579 00:38:23.719 --> 00:38:28.519 how many readers your blog, which was computer then at the time, had, 580 00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:35.559 and you said A over ten thousand b somewhere between one thousand and eight 581 00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:40.559 thousand or see most of my traffic is spam. The answer was probably a. 582 00:38:40.679 --> 00:38:45.840 But I'm gonna say it's c here we go. I don't refer to 583 00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:50.360 them as readers. It's usually spam. I most of my traffic spam. 584 00:38:54.440 --> 00:38:59.840 Remember Rory's Google weirdos? Oh god, it's so funny, the funniest thing 585 00:38:59.880 --> 00:39:02.079 we ever did on Rock. I'm just looking for the search strings that people 586 00:39:02.119 --> 00:39:07.840 found his site on because he talked about such random stuff, right, cooking 587 00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:14.599 with pig milk? All right? So I actually played this one and asked 588 00:39:14.599 --> 00:39:16.639 Phil Hack about this. But in episode four hundred and fifty eight with You 589 00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:22.239 and Phil Hack, recorded June two thousand and nine at NDC, you talked 590 00:39:22.239 --> 00:39:27.480 about yours and Phil's NDC talk where you Scott Hansman set up an aspnut website 591 00:39:27.519 --> 00:39:31.199 and Phil hacked into it by sending you a video by email that you clicked 592 00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:38.239 on. What was the video of a a hamster on a piano b Michael 593 00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:46.039 Jackson's autop scene or see a steamy scene from True Blood hopefully as both of 594 00:39:46.039 --> 00:39:50.159 the other ones are problematic. Yeah, here we go. And then I 595 00:39:50.199 --> 00:39:52.639 got this email from my good buddy Phil Hack that said, check out the 596 00:39:52.639 --> 00:39:59.360 picture. This this video rather of a hamster on a piano. Who doesn't 597 00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:04.199 like seeing ham on pianos? Right? I like him. I like piano, 598 00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:07.280 so that would be great. So I click on it and it takes 599 00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:12.519 me to his website, which then generates a fake form post with JavaScript. 600 00:40:12.559 --> 00:40:17.239 And then because I was already logged into my banking site, he basically form 601 00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:22.280 posted over sideways to my site and then you started a transfer to take money 602 00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:25.920 away from me. Wow. That and I would talk to Phil about that. 603 00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:30.840 That's a great talk. I mean, you know hacking Live, you 604 00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:36.360 know legit, legit. Okay. So in episode five hundred and eighty two, 605 00:40:36.360 --> 00:40:40.239 published in August twenty ten, we were talking about the web platform installer 606 00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:45.480 and Richard pointed out that there were a lot of apps you could install. 607 00:40:45.559 --> 00:40:49.519 What was your reaction, A, there are more apps than you can shake 608 00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:53.000 a stick at. Sounds like you be so many apps, it's ridiculous. 609 00:40:53.519 --> 00:41:00.000 Or see a metric as load. Oh it'll be see sure about it? 610 00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:01.639 Oh yeah, okay, every question. Well, and it's a ton of 611 00:41:01.639 --> 00:41:05.280 apps in here, right, I mean there's a whole e commerce section of 612 00:41:05.320 --> 00:41:10.559 this. There is a metric ass load. It's you used. But you 613 00:41:10.599 --> 00:41:14.800 know when I was researching this, fine, well, at least they use 614 00:41:14.840 --> 00:41:20.760 the metric measurements because that way they are divisible. Imperiod. Yeah. But 615 00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:23.800 you know, here's the thing. Those other two answers are legitimate. Last 616 00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:29.840 very much something Yeah, all right. In episode seven and thirty one, 617 00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:35.159 published January twenty twelve, I read a tweet by one Matt Rock which read 618 00:41:35.239 --> 00:41:38.239 getting an IM from Scott Hanselman in an intro to Richard Campbell is like, 619 00:41:38.280 --> 00:41:44.519 what A like my daughter getting the same from I Carly and Justin Bieber, 620 00:41:45.639 --> 00:41:49.440 B Like Bill Clinton getting a letter stating that he had won Big Max for 621 00:41:49.519 --> 00:41:54.519 Life, or CE like Lindsey Lohan accepting the Best Actress Academy Award for her 622 00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:59.079 role in the Lifetime movie Liz and Dick. I don't know what B and 623 00:41:59.159 --> 00:42:01.480 CR. So I'm going to Oh, that's good. Listen to this tweet 624 00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:07.880 from Matt Rock getting an I am from Scott Hansman and an intro to rich 625 00:42:07.960 --> 00:42:12.280 Campbell is like my daughter getting the same from I Carley and Justin Bieber. 626 00:42:13.159 --> 00:42:16.320 I think you're Bieber. I think Scott's Bieber. I could go with that 627 00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:22.920 nice to be very nice. Richard pulls out exactly what his reaction was. 628 00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:24.360 Then, how you guys remember this stuff? I don't remember what I had 629 00:42:24.400 --> 00:42:30.760 for lunch here. Richard remembers everything. I don't remember anything. My wife 630 00:42:30.840 --> 00:42:34.840 hates that she remembers random conversations on random Tuesday. I don't know what day 631 00:42:34.840 --> 00:42:38.599 it is. I'm wonder why I'm so happy in chow because I don't remember 632 00:42:38.639 --> 00:42:45.440 any worry about. In episode eight hundred with You and Rob Connery, published 633 00:42:45.480 --> 00:42:49.639 September twenty twelve, you told us of a place you'd like to go to 634 00:42:49.719 --> 00:42:54.760 work and watch people. Was it a Starbucks, B McDonald's or c the 635 00:42:54.840 --> 00:43:00.199 Multima County Library? What was the context? So you told us of a 636 00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:06.559 place you like to go to work and watch people, Starbucks, McDonald's or 637 00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:10.360 the Multima County Library Noma County? What year is this? Twenty twelve? 638 00:43:10.480 --> 00:43:15.679 Twenty twelve? McDonald's really okay? Moltoma County libraries are deep cut, but 639 00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:17.639 I didn't. Let't live Indoma County. Okay, let me just come out 640 00:43:17.679 --> 00:43:24.360 and say it. I'll just confess I was at McDonald's earlier. Hang on, 641 00:43:24.719 --> 00:43:30.639 mcdiabet's meal, they hang on now they have there are there's free WiFi, 642 00:43:30.840 --> 00:43:34.840 and there are things you can buy at McDonald's that are not bad. 643 00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:38.400 There you go, You got it right, Okay, So now let's move 644 00:43:38.440 --> 00:43:44.800 on episode Hey, I'm sweeping this are killing it? My goodness. In 645 00:43:44.920 --> 00:43:47.159 episode eight hundred and five with you and Chris Sales, which we recorded on 646 00:43:47.199 --> 00:43:52.960 the twenty twelve road trip and published in September of that, we totally lost 647 00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:55.800 control of that show. At one point just went off. You were speaking 648 00:43:55.960 --> 00:44:00.679 of how people who post comments on your blog are me and that had made 649 00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:05.880 you afraid to post anything at all. And Richard asks you why you allow 650 00:44:05.920 --> 00:44:09.280 anonymous comments at all, and your answer was A I believe in free Hey, 651 00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:15.320 you can't google this. What is your answer was? I believe in 652 00:44:15.400 --> 00:44:17.039 A. I believe in free speech, even if it hurts my feelings. 653 00:44:17.559 --> 00:44:22.440 And this is why you allow anonymous comments on your blog? Twenty twelve b 654 00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:28.480 Because karma I mean mean commenters have to sleep at night too, or see 655 00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:32.920 because I don't know how to make oth work. Oh man, probably all 656 00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:38.280 of those, but I'm gonna go a see. Okay, here's the answer. 657 00:44:38.599 --> 00:44:42.480 Well, the question is why are you allowing anonymous comments at all? 658 00:44:44.440 --> 00:44:50.679 I don't know how to make oth work. I mean, well, you 659 00:44:50.840 --> 00:44:54.679 gotta give me is a huge fail. No, but you gotta give me 660 00:44:54.719 --> 00:45:00.679 credit for at least knowing myself. So the pause, that's what you answered. 661 00:45:00.679 --> 00:45:04.320 It is perfect because because I don't know how to make it well, 662 00:45:04.360 --> 00:45:07.880 because the pause there is do I be honest? Or do I not be 663 00:45:07.960 --> 00:45:12.599 honest? Do I say something funny trying to say something honest? Yeah? 664 00:45:12.599 --> 00:45:16.199 Oh my goodness. Great. Okay, so the last one here In episode 665 00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:22.800 eleven and thirty one open source panel discussion at dot net Fringe, published in 666 00:45:22.840 --> 00:45:30.000 eight for fifteen, you called comments by James Newton quote either elitist or mean 667 00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:34.920 after he said one of the following statements about Visual Studio. A. Linux 668 00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:37.920 is the only operating system I will use for development. B It makes you 669 00:45:37.960 --> 00:45:42.400 want to kill yourself every time you open it or see dot net. It 670 00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:45.039 doesn't suck anymore. This is what I said, or what he said, 671 00:45:45.079 --> 00:45:46.920 No, what he said, he said B And I called him out on 672 00:45:46.960 --> 00:45:51.000 it, and he now run this thing on Linux. You can now you 673 00:45:51.039 --> 00:45:52.760 can now build it with tools that don't make you want to kill yourself every 674 00:45:52.760 --> 00:45:57.440 time you open them. You can see what are statements like that helpful? 675 00:45:58.039 --> 00:46:00.960 But it depended honest, like, I hear what you're saying, because I 676 00:46:00.960 --> 00:46:04.760 feel like seventy five percent of what you're saying I agree with, and then 677 00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:07.400 twenty five percent is either elitist or mean. Boy, that was a tense 678 00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:10.320 moment. Well, I mean, it was a good one. The problem 679 00:46:10.559 --> 00:46:15.920 was that he's he's, he's he has valid feedback. Sure, and if 680 00:46:15.960 --> 00:46:21.000 you have good feedback, that's great, put it in an envelope and mail 681 00:46:21.039 --> 00:46:24.239 it. But if the envelope is a rock and you tape the message to 682 00:46:24.280 --> 00:46:28.360 the rock and throw it through my window, I'm probably not going to read 683 00:46:28.360 --> 00:46:30.800 the note. Yeah, you're less inclined to go along with the other side. 684 00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:37.519 So I mean, I then got accused of being mean because I because 685 00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:40.039 elitist was a statement or whatever. But you know, dude, that was 686 00:46:40.079 --> 00:46:47.239 not necessary. I also remember talking to you mean yeah, but you called 687 00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:52.519 me as I was driving back from that show from as An our drivers driving 688 00:46:52.519 --> 00:46:54.960 back from Portland, and we I think we talked for three hours and then 689 00:46:55.000 --> 00:46:59.559 at the end we always go, we should have recorded this every time. 690 00:46:59.599 --> 00:47:01.159 I don't. I think that one actually, that one was pretty personal. 691 00:47:01.480 --> 00:47:06.559 You just you don't. You are not normally a confrontational person. You want 692 00:47:06.599 --> 00:47:08.440 to you want to tell the truth, and I appreciate when you are. 693 00:47:09.559 --> 00:47:13.079 You know, it's not like you do it for fun. I thought it 694 00:47:13.079 --> 00:47:14.920 was a very good moment. I think most people thought it was a very 695 00:47:14.920 --> 00:47:17.440 good moment. But I know, I know, I've known you long enough 696 00:47:17.440 --> 00:47:21.480 to know that isn't an easy thing for you to do either, right, 697 00:47:21.639 --> 00:47:23.079 And we end up talking for quite a while about it afterwards. Well, 698 00:47:23.119 --> 00:47:25.880 yeah, I mean, you don't want to be unnecessarily confrontational, no, 699 00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:29.440 like, but I also don't want to be dismissive of people's feelings. So, 700 00:47:29.519 --> 00:47:30.559 like, you know, I do have a certain amount of like, 701 00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:34.719 it's not that deep, man, for some people, it is that deep. 702 00:47:34.840 --> 00:47:39.199 Yeah, but you know you should consider I wrote a blog post called 703 00:47:39.239 --> 00:47:44.039 software and Saving Babies nice, you know, like is it software? Is 704 00:47:44.039 --> 00:47:46.840 it saving babies or is it literally baby saving software? Like you've got to 705 00:47:46.920 --> 00:47:52.000 go and think about all the different things you're working on and then compare it 706 00:47:52.039 --> 00:47:55.199 to whether or not we're saving babies. Right, maybe the wrong ad gets 707 00:47:55.239 --> 00:47:59.519 served because you're working on ad serving software, right, or maybe you're working 708 00:47:59.519 --> 00:48:01.159 on a video and the guy doesn't jump at the right time. But like, 709 00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:05.760 are you saving babies? So it feels like it's a huge bug or 710 00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:07.920 it's a huge problem, but it's probably not that big of a deal to 711 00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:12.280 you. Yeah, breath, it's gonna be okay, let's work the problem. 712 00:48:12.320 --> 00:48:14.840 So I'm very much like the older I get, the more like, 713 00:48:15.360 --> 00:48:16.880 let's just chill out, let's solve the problem. It's gonna be okay, 714 00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:22.599 it's gonna be So that's naive perhaps, but also a little bit optimistic. 715 00:48:22.880 --> 00:48:24.280 Yeah, before we go, let's talk a little bit more about these mean 716 00:48:24.320 --> 00:48:29.880 people who we've been referencing. Not necessarily James, but there are people out 717 00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:36.079 there that love to throw darts at people with power, maybe people with celebrity, 718 00:48:36.559 --> 00:48:40.119 as a means of furthering themselves or getting noticed. Anyway. I noticed 719 00:48:40.119 --> 00:48:45.400 this in the very early days of dot net rocks. I would get people 720 00:48:45.440 --> 00:48:49.400 who couldn't just come out and say Hey, I would like to be a 721 00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:52.639 guest on your show. Here's what I have to say. They had to 722 00:48:52.679 --> 00:48:58.079 instead throw rocks in, you know. You mean the classic was the angry 723 00:48:58.119 --> 00:49:00.960 blog post referencing a show, right, and then we'd be people coming to 724 00:49:01.039 --> 00:49:04.280 us. You got to respond to that. I'm like, no, no, 725 00:49:04.280 --> 00:49:06.599 no, really, don't don't really want to do that. It doesn't 726 00:49:06.599 --> 00:49:08.039 make that. I'm only going to do something that makes a situation better. 727 00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:14.000 There was one of these people who was very mean. We actually ended up 728 00:49:14.079 --> 00:49:20.840 engaging them and they ended up ruining their career and that was just the way 729 00:49:20.880 --> 00:49:22.880 it went. But you know, it's sort of I'm not going to say 730 00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:28.280 who it is, but it sort of speaks to the karma of the situation 731 00:49:28.599 --> 00:49:32.920 that you never know who you're talking to or talking about. So be real 732 00:49:34.119 --> 00:49:37.800 and don't be a jerk. Well, I don't want to. I have 733 00:49:37.880 --> 00:49:40.079 no problem with James. I had a problem only with that sentence. Yeah, 734 00:49:40.199 --> 00:49:44.199 so I want to make sure if James is listening to this, the 735 00:49:45.599 --> 00:49:50.199 point was seventy five percent valid, and I have no problem with him. 736 00:49:50.880 --> 00:49:53.519 So yeah, I don't like it makes me uncomfortable that we're talking about people 737 00:49:53.519 --> 00:49:59.159 at all on a podcast. But I do believe in karma, and I 738 00:49:59.239 --> 00:50:02.320 do believe that if you're kind consistently for decades, then good things will happen. 739 00:50:04.280 --> 00:50:06.639 But it gets back to the very beginning of the show, the difference 740 00:50:06.639 --> 00:50:13.360 between stop energy and and yes and energy. If you're a hater for a 741 00:50:13.400 --> 00:50:17.960 long time, I'm convinced that it's going to cause high blood pressure and cholesterol 742 00:50:19.079 --> 00:50:22.280 and heart heart disease, and you know, people, it would just it 743 00:50:22.280 --> 00:50:28.400 would be very, very hard to live one hundred year plus life and everything 744 00:50:28.559 --> 00:50:32.920 sucks. Yeah, try to be positive and try to be constructive, but 745 00:50:34.360 --> 00:50:37.440 feedback. The great thing about pessimism is you usually write and occasionally pleasantly surprised. 746 00:50:40.679 --> 00:50:46.840 Now I'm a perpetual optimist. Yeah, yeah, I know that I 747 00:50:46.920 --> 00:50:50.920 know that much about you, And as funny as I may be at this 748 00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:53.440 moment, I am too. And as I said, integrity is your middle 749 00:50:53.519 --> 00:51:00.559 name. And everybody should realize that a taco silly quiz you just did a 750 00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:05.639 proof of the integrity. Absolutely know. I'm impressed with myself because I was 751 00:51:05.719 --> 00:51:07.159 literally I had no idea. You didn't tell me there's any freaking quiz. 752 00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:09.760 That's a surprise. Yeah, you didn't tell me it's gonna be a twenty 753 00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:15.920 years of of you have recordings like you've got tapes. Franklin brought receipts. 754 00:51:17.480 --> 00:51:21.719 But at least I am nothing if not consistent. Due I learned from that. 755 00:51:21.920 --> 00:51:24.159 Yeah, you still are really red or not? Thanks for doing it's 756 00:51:24.199 --> 00:51:28.440 nineteen hundred with us, Ben, Yeah, absolutely my pleasure. Thank you. 757 00:51:28.679 --> 00:51:31.559 Be sure to listen to handsle minutes. Yeah, yeah, that's right, 758 00:51:31.559 --> 00:51:34.880 because this is also a handsome minute, isn't it. Yeah, we'll 759 00:51:35.079 --> 00:51:37.559 turn around, we'll make this hands minutes as well. That'll be fantastic. 760 00:51:37.639 --> 00:51:45.159 Yeah, all right, we'll see you next time. I'm dotting it right. 761 00:52:00.039 --> 00:52:02.960 Dot net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop 762 00:52:04.039 --> 00:52:08.719 Studios, a full service audio, video and post production facility located physically in 763 00:52:08.800 --> 00:52:15.159 New London, Connecticut, and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot 764 00:52:15.159 --> 00:52:17.840 com. Visit our website at d O T N E t R O c 765 00:52:19.000 --> 00:52:23.079 k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, 766 00:52:23.400 --> 00:52:28.639 and access to the full archives going back to show number one, recorded in 767 00:52:28.679 --> 00:52:31.480 September two thousand and two, and make sure you check out our sponsors. 768 00:52:31.639 --> 00:52:36.280 They keep us in business. Now, go write some code. See you 769 00:52:36.320 --> 00:52:40.599 next time. You got Jamal Vans and