1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:05,679 How'd you like to listen to dot NetRocks with no ads? Easy? Become 2 00:00:05,679 --> 00:00:09,839 a patron For just five dollars a month, you get access to a private 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,439 RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month will 4 00:00:14,439 --> 00:00:19,039 get you that and a special dot NetRocks patron mug. Sign up now at 5 00:00:19,039 --> 00:00:23,800 Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey, Carl and Richard here with your 6 00:00:23,879 --> 00:00:29,199 twenty twenty four NDC schedule. We'll be at as many NDC conferences as possible 7 00:00:29,239 --> 00:00:33,520 this year, and you should consider attending no matter what. Ndcoslo is happening 8 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:37,840 June tenth through the fourteenth. Get your tickets at ndcoslo dot com. The 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:45,479 Copenhagen Developers Festival happens August twenty sixth through the thirtieth. Tickets at Cphdevfest dot 10 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:50,719 com. Ndcporto is happening October fourteenth through the eighteenth. The early discount ends 11 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:56,079 June fourteenth. Tickets at Ndcporto dot com. We'll see you there, we 12 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:11,920 hope. Hey, guess what it's dot net rocks. In a very special 13 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:15,200 episode nineteen hundred, Scott Hansman is here. I'm Carl Franklin. I'mgor Campbell 14 00:01:15,519 --> 00:01:21,120 and we're at build Yeah, and happened to have just made our aprocess making 15 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,959 O nineteen hundredth episode. How did that happen? How did that happen? 16 00:01:23,159 --> 00:01:26,239 Well, we got a really great guest who's been part of the dot net 17 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:32,079 rocks U environment, if you will, for ever since we can remember show 18 00:01:32,159 --> 00:01:36,920 seventeen you I tell people how did how did Hansel Minutes start? Right? 19 00:01:37,239 --> 00:01:41,200 It's because Carl Franklin called me eighteen years ago and he said, why don't 20 00:01:41,239 --> 00:01:44,719 you have a podcast? In your answer? And I saw podcast sucks? 21 00:01:47,079 --> 00:01:49,519 And then he said, well, I dare you to make one better? 22 00:01:49,879 --> 00:01:53,200 Yeah, And I said, well, fine, I will all but you 23 00:01:53,239 --> 00:01:57,840 know, to your credit, though, what you really meant to say was 24 00:01:57,959 --> 00:02:02,040 the podcast that I've heard it sucks. So when I said podcasting sucks, 25 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:06,159 I want to point out that there were only like five podcasts because it was 26 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:10,719 twenty years ago, but it was because so many podcasts were just a bunch 27 00:02:10,719 --> 00:02:16,800 of idiots sitting around jabberin. And now podcasts are just Instagram reels with a 28 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:23,000 bunch of idiots at around with their headphones on. So, yeah, welcome 29 00:02:23,039 --> 00:02:27,680 to our podcast commute. And then then they say the weirdest you know, 30 00:02:27,719 --> 00:02:30,800 it's like, did you read that article in New Yorker about how cinnamon cures 31 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:35,319 diabetes? And then they then that goes viral and then we have to talk 32 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,560 about how that's not true. Right, yeah, over and over again. 33 00:02:38,599 --> 00:02:42,159 But yeah, I appreciate it very much. Carl. You supported me for 34 00:02:42,319 --> 00:02:45,960 gosh five hundred episodes. Yeah, you know, edited produced a handsome and 35 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,520 it would not exist without well, thanks Carl Franklin family. I remember being 36 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,680 at the first time I met you was at an RD meeting and we were 37 00:02:54,400 --> 00:03:00,800 talking about I think we were talking about Joseph Campbell of all people, and 38 00:03:00,879 --> 00:03:05,360 maybe the hero's journey. The hero's journey and how you know the similarities between 39 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:12,159 cultures and the religions and the things that manifest themselves related it to c Sharp, 40 00:03:12,479 --> 00:03:14,879 that's awesome. You're like, yeah, it is kind of like that. 41 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:16,240 We just love my analogies. Oh. It was great, And I 42 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:17,639 was like, all right, this is a smart guy. I want to 43 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:21,520 get to nybody. Did you want to do the open Yeah, let's do 44 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:32,439 the open framework music. All right, dude, what do you got? 45 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:37,080 I came across this and I said, this has got to be the better 46 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:44,319 no framework for Scott Hansman, because he's such a Commodore nerd. This is 47 00:03:44,479 --> 00:03:51,120 eight bit due retro mechanical keyboard C sixty four edition, programmable keys, intuitive 48 00:03:51,159 --> 00:03:55,719 controls. It's a keyboard for your PC that looks like the Commodore with the 49 00:03:55,840 --> 00:04:00,120 rainbow logo and all of that. Oh my god, just that on March 50 00:04:00,159 --> 00:04:06,719 twenty nine. Of course it has been on pre order with a July shipping 51 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:11,360 date, and it turns out that it is going to be arriving Wednesday. 52 00:04:12,039 --> 00:04:15,879 That's also Now, this was just convergent thinking, right. I mean, 53 00:04:15,919 --> 00:04:17,560 you found it just probably the same time. And I wore a Commore sixty 54 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:23,639 four T shirt yesterday. Nice and at dev Intersections on stage with you, 55 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:28,920 we asked chat ChiPT through a Commodore sixty four. We had a Commoce sixty 56 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:34,439 four live on stage. We used a BBS software great to simulate talking to 57 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:38,360 a bulletin board. You can go and the young people can google for that 58 00:04:38,519 --> 00:04:44,240 with bing and we got we bbs'd into an Ubuntu VM, ran a Python 59 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,759 script he called chat chept and asked it to run and write a sixty five 60 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,399 oh two assembler and then say Hello World and then run it on the Commodore 61 00:04:51,439 --> 00:04:58,519 sixty four. Why because it's awesome, because it's a lot of hoops. 62 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,279 HiT's retro too. It was a lovely Commodore sixty four user group active. 63 00:05:02,439 --> 00:05:05,879 Yeah, in the Portland area. We meet kit. We meet at Kingpins 64 00:05:05,879 --> 00:05:10,000 in Beaverton. You're more than welcome to join us. That's phenomenal. How 65 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,720 do I mean the traces a got to be falling off those boards? Man? 66 00:05:12,959 --> 00:05:15,959 No, Man, so we do. You can actually go and search 67 00:05:15,079 --> 00:05:20,279 for a C sixty four cap kite, get and recap. So like if 68 00:05:20,319 --> 00:05:25,279 you talk to a Commodore or the x Spectrum or an Amiga person, you 69 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,360 say, oh, yeah, when was the last time you recapped the board? 70 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:32,000 Yeah? I had a fifteen seventy one Commodore disk drive and it had 71 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,480 magic smoke come out of it. All right, they do, and I 72 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,720 I got to recap it. And you go and you buy all new capacitors 73 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,639 you disordered the boards and your redo them and they'll live forever. Yeah, 74 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,319 that's moving part. I just have one question before we get started. Can 75 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,800 I buy a pair of Crocs? I I I've been, I have moved, 76 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:55,120 I have so I made a video where I three D printed a pair 77 00:05:55,160 --> 00:06:00,720 of croc like not Crocs, and people have told, I mean the comments 78 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,759 that they are very litigious. They are simply plastic shoes, yes, with 79 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,959 a with a passing resemblance, Yeah to Crocs. There you go. I 80 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,199 was worried that you had said the word Crocs in that video. They are 81 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,439 not yasis, they are not easy slides. They are not Crocs. Okay, 82 00:06:14,519 --> 00:06:16,759 that's what you made him for your son wear them is not They're too 83 00:06:16,759 --> 00:06:20,839 slippery, slippery ron material material. Yeah, I get change. It puts 84 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:26,120 like they're missing that Crocs magic. This episode is brought to you by Crocs. 85 00:06:27,319 --> 00:06:29,639 All right, Well, Richard, who's talking to us? I grabbed 86 00:06:29,639 --> 00:06:31,920 a comment of the show eight hundred because why wouldn't I go eleven hundred shows 87 00:06:31,959 --> 00:06:34,920 back? Right? But you know, we always have fun with our ad 88 00:06:35,199 --> 00:06:40,120 shows. And when we made show eight hundred and twenty twelve, our guests 89 00:06:40,199 --> 00:06:45,160 were Scott Hanselman and Rob Connery. Yeah, so it was like the podcaster 90 00:06:45,319 --> 00:06:48,720 gang. And there's like thirty something comments on this show, like it's huge, 91 00:06:50,519 --> 00:06:54,439 lots of chatter, just you know, it was fun. But I'll 92 00:06:54,439 --> 00:07:00,000 read James McLachlan's comment from eleven years ago he started with Avengers Assemble. Okay, 93 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,920 wow, Yeah, Marvel Universe has been going on that long. Yeah. 94 00:07:04,959 --> 00:07:09,279 This episode is like all my favorite podcasts put together, very interesting behind 95 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:13,600 the scenes glimpse of how you guys all do it. Scott's comment about asking 96 00:07:13,639 --> 00:07:17,160 potentially stupid sounding questions really resonated with me. If I'm to build something for 97 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,759 someone, I'd rather keep going over it until we're both convinced that I've got 98 00:07:20,759 --> 00:07:25,160 it. I don't want to go away giving the other person the impression that 99 00:07:25,199 --> 00:07:28,879 I understand and then build something incorrect. I also don't want to keep going 100 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:31,399 back with questions about things that the other person thought were settled. It serves 101 00:07:31,439 --> 00:07:34,600 everyone better when you spend all the time up front to come with a common 102 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:39,360 understanding, even if it means you have to take a credibility hit up front. 103 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,439 Remember Jane McLoughlin, he's from the UK. Yeah, and when you 104 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,879 come back and the exact thing is built, you look like a pro very 105 00:07:46,959 --> 00:07:50,920 nice. Yeah. No, And the comment about asking potentially dumb questions that 106 00:07:51,279 --> 00:07:57,120 the whole my whole podcast is to me asking dumb questions. Someone asked me 107 00:07:57,199 --> 00:08:00,560 how I did so many episodes. I know that I'm not in teen hundred. 108 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,639 I'm only at nine hundred and fifty. Ire. But the trick is 109 00:08:05,079 --> 00:08:07,879 if people email you and say, hey, can I pick your brain and 110 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,240 buy you coffee? Right, that's annoying. Yeah, But if they say, 111 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:13,439 hey, would you come on my podcast, that's not annoying. Yeah. 112 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,759 But it's the same exact thing. It is pretty much just right. 113 00:08:16,839 --> 00:08:18,720 Yeah, yeah it is. I have no business talking to these but that 114 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,560 is one of the secrets, isn't it. James, thanks so much. 115 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,639 You're a comment at a copy of music code by. It's on its way 116 00:08:24,639 --> 00:08:26,360 to you, And if you'd like a copy of music cod buy, I 117 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,839 write a comment on the website at Donna at rocks dot com or on the 118 00:08:28,839 --> 00:08:31,680 facebooks. We publish every show there, and if you comment there and every 119 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:33,759 ready on the show, we'll send you a copy of music to go buy 120 00:08:33,919 --> 00:08:35,159 and you can follow us. So it's very smooth. I'm sorry, can 121 00:08:35,159 --> 00:08:39,639 we don't know that? He does that live every time? And people when 122 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:41,679 we do live shows, they're like, what, yeah, the look on 123 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,559 their faces when we do a live show and I rip that out and they're 124 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,960 like the part that I was missing though, was the part like the prescription 125 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:52,799 drug part where you go music to code may cause a dumble distinction, but 126 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:58,639 do not talk to music to code. That's three x speed maker. None 127 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,360 of these. It's been valid by the FAA. Very nice. Talk to 128 00:09:01,399 --> 00:09:05,759 your doctor before rocks. Anyway. You can follow us on x Twitter, 129 00:09:05,799 --> 00:09:09,559 which is what I'm calling it now, get it x Twitter. I refuse 130 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:13,440 to call it x Yeah. Yeah, we're in the same boat. We've 131 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,879 been on there for a long long time. But all the cool kids are 132 00:09:16,879 --> 00:09:20,320 hanging out. I'm asked done, I'm at Carl Franklin at techot dot social, 133 00:09:20,399 --> 00:09:22,559 and I'm Rich Campbell at mastadon dot social. Do you have a mask 134 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,399 don account? So I do, and I can give you a cool tip. 135 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,399 If you just search for at Scott dot hansone dot com, you'll find 136 00:09:30,399 --> 00:09:33,600 me. I'm actually on hackyderm right, But you can use a thing called 137 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,080 web finger. You put a single file on you know, Franklin's dot net 138 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:43,320 or on Campbell Associates, and then it will be a pointer to or where 139 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,879 you are. So you can just look for my first name and at my 140 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,320 last name and you'll find me. It's very good. That's awesome. Yeah, 141 00:09:48,399 --> 00:09:50,679 yeah, should do that. I'm also on threads, air Chat, 142 00:09:52,279 --> 00:09:56,519 Instagram. I have a list of all those at Carl Franklin dot com. 143 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:58,360 So tell people I'm on all of them. I'm only set up the finger. 144 00:09:58,399 --> 00:10:03,720 I think that's good. I yeah, okay. So we haven't formally 145 00:10:03,879 --> 00:10:07,360 introduced Scott, but if if you haven't listened to him lately, he is 146 00:10:07,399 --> 00:10:11,159 now vice president of Developer Community. Congratulations, What is that? What is 147 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,480 that about? I don't know what crazy? Is that? What a weird 148 00:10:13,519 --> 00:10:20,360 complicent capitalism? You so? Uh, it's but you know, I didn't 149 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:22,559 want this show, and neither did Richard to be you know, three old 150 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:28,679 guys talk about the old days, get off my lawn. But it turns 151 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:33,200 out that, you know, that's a really valid point of view that may 152 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:37,559 be missing in some conversations. Maybe not the get off my lawn part. 153 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:41,720 But we did the show with Sean Wildermuth about you know, the aging senior 154 00:10:41,759 --> 00:10:45,799 developer and you know, the decisions that we make in our older years about 155 00:10:45,799 --> 00:10:48,279 what do we want to do next? Yeah, and it resonated with the 156 00:10:48,399 --> 00:10:52,879 listeners. We weren't sure if it was going to, but it really did. 157 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:56,639 And then follow that up with Aaron Erickson's show, Yeah, who is 158 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,519 also a fifty something developer, but he was the nomadic developer while he mages 159 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:03,679 ago and now he's he's working and he did all the jobs. He's been 160 00:11:03,759 --> 00:11:07,519 a consultant, and then he went into a he dabbled with some other companies. 161 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,200 Then he did a startup that I moved to San Francisco did. The 162 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,799 startup failed horribly, but it was an AI start up, and he got 163 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:18,519 hired by Nvidia and now he's working with then Video on large language model stuff. 164 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,879 But the Energizer Bunny still just going and yet super excited down. I 165 00:11:22,919 --> 00:11:26,360 just thought it was a really interesting set of shows to think in terms of, 166 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:30,600 you know, what did you want from your career? Like you've got 167 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,399 your VP. I don't know if that was a goal for you. Well, 168 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:41,039 so now that I'm on the downslope, on the way out, I 169 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:46,360 have thought about what my identity is. It's not my company. I was, 170 00:11:46,519 --> 00:11:50,159 never ever was, never has been. I feel like I'm a teacher. 171 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:52,600 I was a teacher before, I'll be a teacher after. All of 172 00:11:52,639 --> 00:11:58,480 my vibes are teachery. Now that I'm older, I've been told that I 173 00:11:58,519 --> 00:12:01,679 give off big dad energy. Yeah, So that I think is a position 174 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,600 that I will happily take. Yeah. And my job is to make the 175 00:12:05,639 --> 00:12:09,039 kids successful, whether it be my own kids or whether it be early in 176 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:13,159 career people regardless of their age. Because there's a lot of great forty somethings 177 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:18,360 career switchers yet early in career. So on my way out, the question 178 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,159 is who is the next Richard Campbell, Who's the next Carl Franklin, Who's 179 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,879 the next you know, Angie Jones. How do we make these great new 180 00:12:24,879 --> 00:12:28,360 developers that are maybe in their twenties, yeah, or are in their forties 181 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,919 and their career switchers. So that's that's my goal. I want to pay 182 00:12:31,919 --> 00:12:35,080 you a compliment of data you paid me one early on. When I think 183 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:39,360 of you, one word comes to mind, and that's integrity. Oh absolutely. 184 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:45,480 You spoke truth when truth needed to be heard and wasn't very popular, 185 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,399 and you still do that to this day. That's very kind. Thank you 186 00:12:50,399 --> 00:12:52,120 for that. Well, it's very true, and I think a lot of 187 00:12:52,159 --> 00:12:54,200 people will agree with me. Sure. No, When I folks ask me 188 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:58,960 about you, I talk about your diabetes video, watching you do your routine, 189 00:13:00,759 --> 00:13:01,840 Oh yeah, and then to me. It's always the thing of it 190 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,720 doesn't matter that you I think you're a thirty something when you did that video 191 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,799 and Lord, but you're still flinch. Oh it hurts. Yeah, Its 192 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:11,799 like does it hurt to the needle hurt? No? They yes, they 193 00:13:11,879 --> 00:13:13,360 hurt. It's a needle, look at it. I remember being on the 194 00:13:13,399 --> 00:13:16,919 phone with you before we did a handsome minutes one day and you were like, 195 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,240 hang on one second. I got a jab myself and it sounded like 196 00:13:20,279 --> 00:13:22,840 a horror movie, you know. I'm like, Oh, I'm so sorry. 197 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,039 You know. Yep. No, it's your life a glckle pilot. 198 00:13:26,039 --> 00:13:28,519 And none of us are getting out of this alive. No, no are 199 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:33,879 at all. But back to the the the old programmer thing m M. 200 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:41,320 The thing that we can offer is kind and patient mentorship and historical context exactly 201 00:13:41,639 --> 00:13:46,399 knows. I love historical context, and I love the enthusiasm of the earli 202 00:13:46,399 --> 00:13:48,279 in career developer of the young person. I love how excited they are about 203 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:52,919 stuff. And I don't want to bring stop energy. And one of the 204 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:58,120 things that we as as older as elders will say, have a tendency to 205 00:13:58,159 --> 00:14:01,399 do is bring stop energy. Yeah, it's to get off my lawnman. 206 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,879 Yeah, oh we did that. Oh go man, we did that before. 207 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,200 Yeah, yeah, and why would you do that? That's a lot 208 00:14:05,279 --> 00:14:09,159 of work. Instead of no, we did that before and you shouldn't do 209 00:14:09,159 --> 00:14:11,279 it now, we go, yeah, okay, I can see why you'd 210 00:14:11,279 --> 00:14:15,320 want to do that. Here's what we learned when we tried. Yeah, 211 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,360 exactly, yes, and yeah, yeah, take and take them forward on 212 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:22,639 it. Certainly be enthusiastic with all the possibilities that are out there. Oh 213 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:28,360 yeah. I mean I'm the fifty something still in the speaking circuit and most 214 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:30,480 of the speakers are into thirties now, and they're like, there are a 215 00:14:30,519 --> 00:14:33,159 great crop of speakers. There's a bunch of very very exciting speakers out there 216 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,559 right now, and they're doing a lot of really cool stuff. And I 217 00:14:35,559 --> 00:14:39,720 think we're also starting to see uh and I always like to see speakers that 218 00:14:41,039 --> 00:14:43,799 build first and then talk. Yeah. You can really really easily get pulled 219 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:48,399 into the quote unquote international technical speaking circuit and all you do is talk about 220 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:50,519 stuff. Yeah, and you know, yeah, go make things, go 221 00:14:50,559 --> 00:14:52,919 make things that disappear, and then talk about what you made, because I 222 00:14:52,919 --> 00:14:56,720 want to know what you made. When I was wondering where you were. 223 00:14:56,159 --> 00:15:01,000 Where are they? They're off making stuff they were making so generation and I 224 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,559 don't want to be the In my day we use punch cards and we liked 225 00:15:03,559 --> 00:15:09,000 it. Guy, But our generation saw the evolution of computing from you know, 226 00:15:09,159 --> 00:15:11,080 maybe just after punch cards, you know, to the PC, certain 227 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:16,720 from the PC certainly all the way up to now. And there is some 228 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:22,960 I don't know. Would you say that we came of age there and there 229 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:28,960 were fewer people maybe following that curve as there are now, and you know, 230 00:15:28,039 --> 00:15:31,679 so it's easy to because there were less of us, too easier to 231 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:37,120 fall into the success or do you think that now with so many things being 232 00:15:37,159 --> 00:15:39,840 so easy? All right, let me give you an example what you just 233 00:15:39,879 --> 00:15:43,720 talked about with hacking this common or sixty four and BBS's and stuff. You 234 00:15:43,759 --> 00:15:46,120 know, we've been doing stuff like that the whole time on the bleeding edge 235 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,519 where things were people didn't know you could do what we did, and so 236 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:54,200 you're like, wow, you can do that. It's really much a meritocracy 237 00:15:54,679 --> 00:15:58,200 in my career. Anyway, you can do that, you're hired. You 238 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:03,519 can do that, you're hired. Whereas now there's so much information out there. 239 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,600 It's easier for people in some way to get in on it and learn 240 00:16:07,639 --> 00:16:11,399 things quickly. But are they as motivated or is there a difference? Let 241 00:16:11,399 --> 00:16:15,240 me let me train it like this. It's easier to get the information. 242 00:16:15,799 --> 00:16:19,720 It is harder to get noticed. When we were starting up, there were 243 00:16:19,759 --> 00:16:22,840 like two or three books. You're in the basement. You have a question, 244 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,279 you can go on fighto net or comfee serve and you can wait a 245 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:30,279 couple of days. You send a box top to kelloggause you get back a 246 00:16:30,279 --> 00:16:34,240 toy in six to eight weeks. Right, there's no idea of like skyping 247 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:38,799 a friend. All right, you're writing on CompuServe to Dan Appleman about his 248 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,039 win thirty two books. Dan Appleman wrote me back, and he wrote me 249 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,440 back always, and he wrote fast. At one point I literally said to 250 00:16:45,559 --> 00:16:48,080 I don't understand how you're doing this, and he's like, yeah, I 251 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:52,320 don't get as many questions as you think. I disagree. I'm sure Dan 252 00:16:52,399 --> 00:16:55,679 Alman gets that brilliant, lovely guy. No. One of my inspirations, 253 00:16:55,679 --> 00:16:56,840 like when I grew up, I want to be Dan Appleman like he he 254 00:16:57,679 --> 00:17:03,000 was so kind. I want to Actually I have three favorite Dans small, 255 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,039 small side thing. If this was a book, this would be the little 256 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,200 box in the corner of the book with the off site. You got your 257 00:17:08,279 --> 00:17:12,480 Dan Appleman, lovely, you got your Dan Bricklin, Yes, made visit 258 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:17,279 account right, and then you got your Dan Schiffman from the coding train, 259 00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:19,960 Oh, processing wrote a processing language. Lovely. You want to just meet 260 00:17:21,279 --> 00:17:26,559 who's the mister Rogers or the the the Bob Ross of programming, Dan Schiffman. 261 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:32,039 So because it's harder to get noticed now, do you think is like 262 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:37,319 the current environment of social media TikTok stars and all of that, where people 263 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,759 want and to get noticed for being a developer, it takes too long? 264 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:42,599 Like is that a barrier? I'm trying to figure out, Like, what's 265 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:48,480 the difference between what challenges that young people have today that we may have had 266 00:17:48,519 --> 00:17:52,559 Differently? There is the getting noticed, but there's also the does getting noticed 267 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,440 matter? Yeah? Yeah, right? There are lots and lots. I 268 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,960 still stand by my my blog post about Dark Matter developers so many years ago 269 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:06,160 that said that there are a ton of For every one Twitter star, there's 270 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,039 a thousand people that are just doing the job, doing the work, and 271 00:18:08,039 --> 00:18:14,519 they're doing great, and they're well known in their space, and that's fine. 272 00:18:14,599 --> 00:18:17,119 I don't think Twitter. And when I say Twitter, I'm using the 273 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:21,680 word like Kleenex. The brand name Twitter means all of social media. All 274 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:26,079 you have to be a YouTuber. There's a lot of introverted people out there 275 00:18:26,079 --> 00:18:30,440 that have no reason to be on Twitter, but they can consume, right. 276 00:18:30,519 --> 00:18:36,279 I just think that we see the glamor, but we are algorithms, 277 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,799 algorithmically designed to make us feel bad about ourselves. Right, So don't look 278 00:18:40,839 --> 00:18:45,960 to Twitter and somebody's freaking GitHub graph And I agree, comparison is a thief 279 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,599 of joy. Work on yourself. The only person you should be comparing yourself 280 00:18:48,599 --> 00:18:53,440 against is you yesterday. I agree, see how podcasting same thing. Like 281 00:18:53,519 --> 00:18:56,160 we both got into it. We all got into it very early on, 282 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:02,079 and that's why at Rocks and Handsome and nets became very popular, arguably because 283 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:07,559 we were the go to places to listen to for dot neis essentially, and 284 00:19:07,599 --> 00:19:11,440 now everybody and their brother has a podcast. And I love when somebody tells 285 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,880 me, have you heard of podcasting? I look going, but people ask 286 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,440 me for advice about podcasting, and I do have to tell them that you 287 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:23,359 have to grind nobody listened to the first hundred episodes, so my show. 288 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:27,400 That true. Very few listened to the last hundred episode. But you know, 289 00:19:27,559 --> 00:19:30,599 like the first hundred were grind So then you just ask yourself, well, 290 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,680 what's a good number, and people like, well, if I don't 291 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,319 get a thousand, I don't. It doesn't make you get more than one. 292 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,599 Right, did anyone listen Who's not your mom? That's awesome, you 293 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,799 got ten listeners. That was never the motivation. Ten x. No, 294 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,039 it was never the motive. It was never the motivation. It was the 295 00:19:47,079 --> 00:19:49,599 conversations, right, you know, and you said this offline, but let's 296 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,359 you know, it wasn't the show. Actually I can't even remember now, 297 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:57,559 pretty consistent that the bugging from somebody to have coffee with them is annoying, 298 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,319 but asked them to come to the podcast is not. But they're actually the 299 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,240 same thing. They are the same thing. And I would encourage people, 300 00:20:03,279 --> 00:20:08,640 if you are having great conversations to document them right about to share them. 301 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,160 It doesn't matter so that other people can feel connected. Well, and that 302 00:20:11,279 --> 00:20:15,839 was your line right as you saw Rocky and Billy arguing over the first version 303 00:20:15,839 --> 00:20:18,000 of dot net and thought everybody should hear. Everybody should hear this conversation. 304 00:20:18,079 --> 00:20:22,799 Yeah, because it was two really great minds that there were a couple of 305 00:20:22,839 --> 00:20:23,799 times. I don't know if we actually did a show, but we did 306 00:20:23,799 --> 00:20:30,160 attempt to record conversations in the lobbies of hotels, because there's this magic that 307 00:20:30,279 --> 00:20:33,519 happened somewhere around nine to thirty in the lobby of the Hilton after the you 308 00:20:33,559 --> 00:20:36,880 know the thing, and everyone's kind of quiet and tired, and they're coming 309 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:38,920 down from an exciting day one or day two. Yeah, and then they're 310 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,680 reflective, and then there's just VI. We did a show Dot and Rock's 311 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,839 called The Speaker's Lounge, and you were on it, and I will be 312 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,400 quizzing you about these shows after the break. I don't remember any of the 313 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,160 things that you said. I'm worrying them multiple choice and yeah, it was 314 00:20:52,279 --> 00:20:55,400 very much like that. And that was the reason, because we all had 315 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,640 these great conversations in the hallways outside or in the speaker's line literally trying to 316 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,440 catch or the hallway track, right. But you make the point, it's 317 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,240 like there were certain times in the day where you're more reflective and it's a 318 00:21:06,519 --> 00:21:10,000 great time to catch a story. Nighttime quiet is the time for me. 319 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,319 That's what I'm reflective or when I'm retired. Well, I definitely remember you 320 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:17,119 and I doing like a handsol minutia in the corner of a lobby of a 321 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:21,839 hotel somewhere and in the evening and you know, just riffing. My most 322 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:30,160 fond lobby of a hotel moment was in Stockholm and you busted out a guitar, 323 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,880 which he started doing. What did you do? I've got the video. 324 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:40,039 I was recording on a flipcam. Nice what this is pre smartphone and 325 00:21:40,079 --> 00:21:44,039 you had a guitar and you just busted out some I don't know what it 326 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:45,880 was it was. I'm not a classic rock guy, but you just started 327 00:21:47,079 --> 00:21:49,720 started busking in the middle of the lobby of the hotel and I had a 328 00:21:49,759 --> 00:21:52,880 flip phonel like me. It was freaking amazing. Yeah, you know what 329 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,200 I mean. Definitely said a vibe. So, speaking of music, I 330 00:21:56,279 --> 00:22:02,680 experienced this from the opposite side in music right in the music business. I 331 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:07,119 am not popular. I did not ride the wave of the sixties and seventies, 332 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:08,440 and I wasn't in the right place at the right time in la when 333 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,920 the things were happening. But so the music business. You know, I 334 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:18,359 feel like I was born too late to be noticed, and so by the 335 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,119 time I was good enough as an artist, according to me, to create 336 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,440 an album, it was harder and harder, like albums didn't exist anymore, 337 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,440 and oh, now we're in cassettes. So then I started making home cassettes. 338 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,799 But you know, and then CDs, and I thought, okay, 339 00:22:33,839 --> 00:22:37,839 I'll make a CD. By the time I was able to afford studio production 340 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,839 and make a CD that was right on the right about the time where people 341 00:22:41,839 --> 00:22:45,720 didn't want CDs anymore. So I kind of feel ripped off a little bit. 342 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,240 But now that vinyl is coming back, I'm actually going to do a 343 00:22:48,279 --> 00:22:51,680 vinyl album. I would buy a Carl Franklin vinyl press. Wouldn't be cool, 344 00:22:51,839 --> 00:22:53,160 that'd be amazing. It's not going to be cheap either, but it's 345 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:57,480 going to be full of Kickstarter Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But also, 346 00:22:57,599 --> 00:23:03,440 you know, it's interesting with that vinyl movement is really the music as ceremony. 347 00:23:03,759 --> 00:23:06,440 Yes, one thing I don't know people know this, but you and 348 00:23:06,519 --> 00:23:08,319 I have been hanging around with each other for a fairly long time, fairly 349 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,480 long time, and one thing I know about you, you do love to 350 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,880 play, but you want people to listen. Yeah, you are not willing 351 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,559 to be background noise. It's very soul draining when I have those and you're 352 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,160 you're volunteering, you're not being paid, Like you're just going to play. 353 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,200 I just want to play. Yeah, Home at Last. Okay, that 354 00:23:23,279 --> 00:23:26,480 was the song. That was a song that's one of your favorites. It 355 00:23:26,519 --> 00:23:32,480 was I did a video of that actress, a silver video. You did 356 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:37,799 a video with you playing each individual yeah thing. It was an experimenting video 357 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:42,000 for you as well as you're using the civil publishing engine. It was very 358 00:23:42,079 --> 00:23:45,319 Jacob Callier. Uh, you were you know what I mean. You were 359 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:51,000 just riffing and like it was very early earlier on because people now do those 360 00:23:51,039 --> 00:23:52,920 kind of videos all the time, where like you bring in the next person 361 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,599 and it's the same guy in a different run and the Battle of Woodford and 362 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,519 every shot shot. I did a better one called Waiting for the Summer to 363 00:24:00,519 --> 00:24:06,839 Come where I actually had one shot with all me in it in four different 364 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,240 instruments at the same time, and I can zoom and pan across it. 365 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:15,519 It's really cool. I remember that one too. But anyway, so I'm 366 00:24:15,559 --> 00:24:18,640 wondering what developers that are younger think. I mean, are the golden years 367 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:23,559 of software development gone? Does it matter that Gen Z and millennials didn't grow 368 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,200 up on the bleeding edge? Does it? Does having more choices today from 369 00:24:27,279 --> 00:24:32,359 sophisticated tools and platforms make it easier or harder to break in? You talked 370 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,400 about this makes it harder to get noticed. But do you You told me 371 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,400 that your goal now is to be the mister rogers of development and sort of 372 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,519 talk to the young people. What kind of feedback are you getting from the 373 00:24:44,559 --> 00:24:49,079 young people that about writing software, about you know, the things that we 374 00:24:49,079 --> 00:24:55,000 were doing versus now today. I think that the stack is really deep, 375 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,920 yeah, and most people go kind of to HTTP and not much far. 376 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,400 I think that a lot of things that we learned building home networks, you 377 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,079 just buy a you know, Google Mesh or whatever and it just just works. 378 00:25:08,799 --> 00:25:12,519 So I'll make a comment about you know, rest, and then we'll 379 00:25:12,519 --> 00:25:18,200 start talking about HDDP, and then we're talking about TCP and then we hit 380 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:23,400 we hit the granite very quickly and magic network stuff. Yeah, and then 381 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:30,119 and then a miracle happens. I love it. I mean, I you 382 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,559 know, we're all storytellers here, and I do know. I can engage 383 00:25:33,559 --> 00:25:36,759 people to take them down through the stack and those things, and they often 384 00:25:36,799 --> 00:25:41,960 are interested. Uh it's not always try to ask first. But you talk 385 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,039 about the old guy know. The old guy know is well I had to 386 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,240 learn this before I could work, so you have to learn this before ye, 387 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,799 right, So the example that I give, uh, you know, 388 00:25:52,839 --> 00:25:55,839 and to try to give a gender non specific old guy know here, which 389 00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:00,240 is the my sixteen year old wants to drive, so should he learn how 390 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:04,200 to drive stick? And the fact is he doesn't need to drive stick, 391 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,720 not in America, you know, if in Europe, or he wants to 392 00:26:07,759 --> 00:26:12,720 experience far fag Neugan. You know, in America three to four percent of 393 00:26:12,759 --> 00:26:17,799 cars are stick. In Europe it's more like fifty or sixty. But the 394 00:26:17,839 --> 00:26:19,960 point is he lives here. So then the question is, well, uber 395 00:26:21,039 --> 00:26:22,720 is a thing. Well, we don't live in a big, big city. 396 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:29,680 But there are perfectly cromulent New Yorkers that are living their lives without ever 397 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,640 having gotten their licenses. My stepdaughter is one of them. And that's fine. 398 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:38,039 So if I were to insist and say, well, young man, 399 00:26:38,079 --> 00:26:42,279 you have to change your oil and change your tire and learn how to drive 400 00:26:42,319 --> 00:26:45,720 stick. And then I'll give you an automatic and you have to learn how 401 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,160 to code an assembler and debug a dump, and then I'll give you a 402 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:56,640 garbage collector. That would be disrespectful, but to let them know that the 403 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,160 information is available if they want. I always have been couraged, and people 404 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,799 who've heard me before we'll say that, yeah, this is your handsleman. 405 00:27:03,799 --> 00:27:07,000 It's like six phrases, but take the level that you're currently working at and 406 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,319 go one level below your comfort zone. So if you're a JavaScript person, 407 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,119 like understand how V eight works. If you are a dottinet person, how 408 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,240 does the CLR work. You don't have to learn how to like smelt your 409 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,519 own iron or generate electricity, right. You don't have to take the rock 410 00:27:22,559 --> 00:27:26,759 and inject lightning and make it think. But it's it's nice to have a 411 00:27:26,799 --> 00:27:30,880 sense of systems thinking and how these things all shut together. And I will 412 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,000 say though, that there are people, there are personalities, there are types 413 00:27:34,039 --> 00:27:38,319 of people who are naturally systems thinkers. One of the stories that I love 414 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:44,519 to tell was doing a Black Girl's Code presentation, and I was saying, 415 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,200 we're gonna learn how to code. We're going to debug a problem. Hey, 416 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,279 let's debug a problem. All the kids all have fourteen fifteen year old 417 00:27:49,319 --> 00:27:52,240 high school kids, and I said, all right, everybody, my toaster 418 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,599 is broken. And I pause and I make it really awkward, and I 419 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,279 say, I really want toast. And they're like, well, you should 420 00:27:59,279 --> 00:28:00,359 buy a new toaster, and I said, that's one way to solve it. 421 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,240 We can probably do that. But what if I buy a new toaster 422 00:28:03,279 --> 00:28:06,200 and it doesn't work? And then someone's like, well, is there is 423 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,400 there any electricity? Is there power? And they're all sitting there thinking, 424 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,359 and then one girl in the back yells out, do the neighbors have power? 425 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:18,200 Look outside? Are the lights on on the street. We're talking about 426 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:23,279 toast. All I wanted was hot bread and and And that's a that's a 427 00:28:23,319 --> 00:28:30,200 programmer, Like whoever she is, she's wired. She's like, it's probably 428 00:28:30,319 --> 00:28:37,319 DNS. Look outside, it's okay. But the fundamental the the like going 429 00:28:37,319 --> 00:28:40,599 from point A to point D or point G. That's how programmers like to 430 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,960 bug things. And the fact that she was able to go I understand the 431 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,559 system in which the toaster exists, and exists in one where power is a 432 00:28:47,559 --> 00:28:51,599 thing, right, and maybe maybe the neighborhood had of power out it. 433 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,920 Yeah, that's great, it's great context. I've also come to be really 434 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,119 comfortable with the idea that they're not only different species of programmers, but they're 435 00:28:59,119 --> 00:29:03,000 all and there are that are their best selves. You know. They're not 436 00:29:03,079 --> 00:29:04,559 all developers are the same. They're not even close to the same. You 437 00:29:04,599 --> 00:29:07,720 know. It's one of the biggest problems you deal with is folks thinking, 438 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,720 well, I can plug any programming to any problem. It's just not true. 439 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,400 You know, certainly, working around Microsoft as I have for so many 440 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:15,440 years, it's like, do you know how many places are to work where 441 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:21,599 you write programming languages like five? And the folks that are good at that, 442 00:29:21,599 --> 00:29:26,920 that love that, they're a different species and it's the same like building 443 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,480 great teams over the years is like that guy loves networking, he's got a 444 00:29:30,599 --> 00:29:33,400 knack for it. Like that's the piece he wants to follow your bliss. 445 00:29:33,519 --> 00:29:37,119 Yeah, following your bliss and value each of them. And good leaders go 446 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,720 and put the puzzle pieces together. Well, everybody doing their favorite thing, 447 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,640 and it makes the whole thing. Scott Hunter likes to say, if you're 448 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,160 putting together a team, a basketball team. You should hire for height, 449 00:29:49,759 --> 00:29:52,519 right, So I don't care. I don't care about your I've tid this 450 00:29:52,519 --> 00:29:56,119 before. I don't care about your degree, where you came from, your 451 00:29:56,559 --> 00:30:00,319 your native language. If you're tall, I can teach you the ballhand and 452 00:30:00,359 --> 00:30:03,039 dribbling. Yeah, so like, oh I learned you know, like I 453 00:30:03,079 --> 00:30:07,119 learned JavaScript. Okay, we'll teach a C sharp. I learned rust, 454 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:08,559 Okay, we'll teach a VB. Or it's easier. It's easier for a 455 00:30:08,599 --> 00:30:12,079 tall person to just put the ball, just just put it in exactly, 456 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,279 just reach over. And and of course to our friends who may not get 457 00:30:15,279 --> 00:30:19,279 that analogy we were talking about like intellectual height, just like if you're if 458 00:30:19,279 --> 00:30:26,279 you're professionally curious, if you're excited. One of my most favorite programmers is 459 00:30:26,559 --> 00:30:30,000 Sofia Abdullah on the sp dot net team. She's so grat beast and I 460 00:30:30,359 --> 00:30:33,799 think she didn't even know C sharp when she came to work at the company. 461 00:30:33,839 --> 00:30:37,920 She was a Python person right now, but she you can see her 462 00:30:37,279 --> 00:30:41,839 like the matrix. She's putting code together in her brain and snapping things together. 463 00:30:42,279 --> 00:30:48,559 So it's not about the syntax, it's about just before we break here, 464 00:30:48,799 --> 00:30:53,680 my brother was an marine engineer naval architect, and so he went to 465 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,200 school for an ann arbor for engineering, got his degree, and then he 466 00:30:57,279 --> 00:31:00,480 was like, I don't like this anymore. And I was like, yeah, 467 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,480 you should get into programming. So he took a VB class. After 468 00:31:03,559 --> 00:31:07,519 graduating the VB class, he went right to work for a company learning Java, 469 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:15,240 JavaScript, mumps like. There was like several languages that he learned and 470 00:31:15,279 --> 00:31:18,839 he's been there ever since because he could just adapt. He had the engineer 471 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,880 brain. Yeah, and all of those examples that we're giving are examples of 472 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,279 people feeling empowered, being empowered by the people around them, Like you're encouraging 473 00:31:26,359 --> 00:31:30,680 him, and I want the young people in the early in career of people 474 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,640 the code switchers, to feel empowered. One of my faves is a gentleman 475 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:38,319 named Lawrence who's on Twitter at Lawrence Codes. He was in the hospitality for 476 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,960 twenty five years wow, and he started being curious about tech and he's like, 477 00:31:42,359 --> 00:31:45,839 there's no reason I can't do that? Why not me? Yeah? 478 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,920 Yeah, yeah, why not be? Why not? That very powerful statement? 479 00:31:49,079 --> 00:31:52,240 Yeah? All right, well, before we move on, let's take 480 00:31:52,279 --> 00:32:00,480 this pause for a few very important messages we'll be right back. We're back. 481 00:32:00,559 --> 00:32:04,680 It's not in at Rocks. I'm Carl Franklin. That's Richard Campbell and 482 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,000 our friend Scott Hansomen is here. It's show nineteen hundred. Can you believe 483 00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:12,240 it? I can? And I guess it's a quiz time. Well you're 484 00:32:12,319 --> 00:32:15,319 up, man, I was not told there would be a quiz, No 485 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:20,519 way before we do the quiz. Is there anything that, any sole message 486 00:32:20,519 --> 00:32:22,960 that you want to tell the people from your perspective as a VP, from 487 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,839 being here at build? What's the message if you if you like a thing, 488 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,559 or if you don't like a thing, vote with your feet. Interesting, 489 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,200 you have power, You have you power if you don't if you don't 490 00:32:34,279 --> 00:32:36,240 like it, tell people that you don't like it. If you like it, 491 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,400 tell people that you like it. Microsoft is not a monolith. It's 492 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,759 a big giant company. It's three hundred thousand people. Sure it's your quote 493 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,000 that is that, Yeah, we are not organized enough to be as evil 494 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:50,599 as you're accusing us of being. Oh yeah, yeah, we are not 495 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,799 as organized as to be as evil as you think we are. Yeah. 496 00:32:52,839 --> 00:32:57,799 Absolutely, We're just a bunch of stormtroopers running around on the way each other 497 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,480 way at each other in the desk star. No, but like, there's 498 00:33:00,519 --> 00:33:05,240 a lot of really smart people have empathy because every feature, every button, 499 00:33:05,279 --> 00:33:08,319 everything, every idea was a human behind it. And if you presume that 500 00:33:08,359 --> 00:33:13,440 they're doing their very best to make a fun and exciting and fair and safe 501 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,400 and responsible private product for you, engage with those people because they're all out 502 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:22,160 there. You don't see Apple engineers on social media. You can't just find 503 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:28,960 the owner of the thing. No, they're strictly against Actually, Apple employees 504 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:30,279 aren't allowed to a bit. They were for app. Yeah, to Microsoft's 505 00:33:30,279 --> 00:33:32,559 credit, if you like a thing, or you don't like a thing, 506 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,839 you can find that person say hey, here's some feedback, and we'll usually 507 00:33:36,839 --> 00:33:39,680 listen. And I think I'm not off base by saying one of your catchphrases, 508 00:33:39,759 --> 00:33:44,240 don't be mean, don't be a dick, You'll get a lot further. 509 00:33:44,559 --> 00:33:45,559 Yeah, I actually had a T shirt I was going to wear it 510 00:33:45,559 --> 00:33:51,039 today that said work hard and be nice Nice, but it doesn't fit anymore. 511 00:33:52,039 --> 00:33:54,799 Well, there's a classic photo of you, is very old of you 512 00:33:54,839 --> 00:33:59,480 holding up a post it note that says why so mean? Yeah, I 513 00:33:59,519 --> 00:34:00,480 just think well should be pleasant, that's all. Yeah, I agree. 514 00:34:00,519 --> 00:34:04,079 All right, let's get into the quiz. So what I did was I 515 00:34:04,119 --> 00:34:07,960 went back through all the shows that you were ever in and I pulled out 516 00:34:07,039 --> 00:34:09,719 some questions that we asked you were things that you said, and we're going 517 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,280 to see how well you're how good You do know that I am not known 518 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,320 for a memory like I live in a so this should be a less one. 519 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,920 I live in a blissful window of three days in either direction. All 520 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,760 right, I don't know what's going on. First question in episode seventeen, 521 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:29,679 published in March two thousand three, I asked you what is the one Windows 522 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:34,159 tool you can't live without? And you said A seven zip, B, 523 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:39,719 Dave's Search bar, or C open Office two thousand and three. I don't 524 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:44,280 think that seven zip existed in two thousand and three. I think it was 525 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:49,079 win rar for arg which you still haven't paid for. I did the research. 526 00:34:49,159 --> 00:34:52,119 Seven zip didn't did exist in two thousand and three. Two thousand and 527 00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:57,639 three. Dave's search bar. I like to quick run, slick run, 528 00:34:57,679 --> 00:35:00,800 and to open office, I would half to it's gonna be either it's not 529 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:06,320 open Office, it's gonna be Dave's search bar, or it's gonna be seven 530 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,239 zip pick one. Let's go with dave search bar. Here's the answer. 531 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,480 You know, if I could say there's one tool that I would install Windows 532 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:20,320 and then install that tool, it would be Dave's search bar. That's awesome. 533 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,840 Oh my god. All right, here's here's to pull that out of 534 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,559 the area. Well reasoned, good lord? Yeah, all right. So 535 00:35:25,599 --> 00:35:30,159 in episode fifty one from February two thousand and four, you told us you 536 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,840 had laser surgery on your eyes. God, what you did? What was 537 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:38,079 the startling fact that you discovered during this process that A the laser itself was 538 00:35:38,159 --> 00:35:44,199 hot pink, and you were waiting for Nurse Barbie to walk in. B 539 00:35:44,519 --> 00:35:47,480 you were surprised to learn you would not be under general anesthesia or C. 540 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:52,760 The machine was running Windows ninety eight, see one hundred percent. I mentioned 541 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,800 this yesterday, no kidding, because I was talking to Shandei piers person and 542 00:35:55,840 --> 00:36:00,719 she just got Lasik and I pulled out that out of the archives that I 543 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,599 in fact had a very old here's the answer. I had laser surgery on 544 00:36:04,639 --> 00:36:07,039 my eyes a couple of days ago. Really, and damn it, if 545 00:36:07,039 --> 00:36:13,480 the machine wasn't running Windows ninety eight, I have nothing if not consent. 546 00:36:13,599 --> 00:36:16,440 It was Rory yeah, yeah, said really yeah, oh wow, yeah 547 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:22,119 it was okay, you're You've battened a thousand so far. In episode seventy 548 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,719 called The Speaker's Lounge, which we talked about, recorded July two thousand and 549 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:30,480 four, you had sent me a bunch of topics that we could talk about. 550 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:32,079 And when I asked you, what's on your mind? What did you 551 00:36:32,159 --> 00:36:38,960 answer? A? You were fascinated with the artist Usher, b the final 552 00:36:39,039 --> 00:36:44,679 episode of Friends made you weep like a baby, or see you forgot the 553 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:49,480 list of topics? What year was this? Two thousand and four July two 554 00:36:49,559 --> 00:36:54,719 thousand and four, fascinated with Usher final episode of Friends made you cry? 555 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,320 Or you forgot the list. I'm going to say it's Usher, but it's 556 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,400 probably I forgot the list of topics. Here's the answer. So we want 557 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,800 to know what's on your mind? And I guess Scott brought up some good 558 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,840 topics. Scott, what's on your mind? Uh? I think I emailed 559 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:14,400 it to you and then at that point I've forgotten it. I'm taking that 560 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:19,239 one as the whim. Absolutely it should have been sure. I remember you 561 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,880 and I planning out a handsel Manu show. Oh no, we've sort of 562 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:24,400 padded some stuff back and forth what we were going to talk about. And 563 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:30,039 then you went to Chipotle inevitably and got on their Wi Fi and their WiFi 564 00:37:30,119 --> 00:37:34,719 had been hijacked. Oh I remember. Then you came and when you got 565 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,519 it like an hour later. We made this perfect planets like I'm going to 566 00:37:37,559 --> 00:37:38,719 get something, I'll come back and then we'll record. Okay, get back. 567 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,800 We are only gonna talk about hijacked Wi fi from now on that whole 568 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:46,880 show. They had a root kit on their on the Yeah, I became 569 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:51,480 friends with the manager and I had to go and get the root kick off 570 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,039 the router because it was you helped them. Yeah, it was great because 571 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:58,280 it's my favorite Chipotlet use that Wi Fi that wife. It's as much it's 572 00:37:58,119 --> 00:38:01,800 a public service. And what was it was hijacking DNS. Yeah, sending 573 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,760 people to bad signs. And I mean, I'm the kind of guy I 574 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:07,280 also can roll with that too. I think we ended up talking. We 575 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:12,320 didn't talk about all kinds of exploits going on. I'm impressed you pulled the 576 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,239 audio. That's that's a nice you know me? I next level, man, 577 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:19,599 I have these all right. So, an episode one hundred and seven 578 00:38:19,679 --> 00:38:23,679 with you and Rory Blythe recorded April two thousand and five, I asked you 579 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:28,519 how many readers your blog, which was computer then at the time, had, 580 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:35,559 and you said A over ten thousand b somewhere between one thousand and eight 581 00:38:35,599 --> 00:38:40,559 thousand or see most of my traffic is spam. The answer was probably a. 582 00:38:40,679 --> 00:38:45,840 But I'm gonna say it's c here we go. I don't refer to 583 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:50,360 them as readers. It's usually spam. I most of my traffic spam. 584 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:59,840 Remember Rory's Google weirdos? Oh god, it's so funny, the funniest thing 585 00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:02,079 we ever did on Rock. I'm just looking for the search strings that people 586 00:39:02,119 --> 00:39:07,840 found his site on because he talked about such random stuff, right, cooking 587 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:14,599 with pig milk? All right? So I actually played this one and asked 588 00:39:14,599 --> 00:39:16,639 Phil Hack about this. But in episode four hundred and fifty eight with You 589 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:22,239 and Phil Hack, recorded June two thousand and nine at NDC, you talked 590 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:27,480 about yours and Phil's NDC talk where you Scott Hansman set up an aspnut website 591 00:39:27,519 --> 00:39:31,199 and Phil hacked into it by sending you a video by email that you clicked 592 00:39:31,199 --> 00:39:38,239 on. What was the video of a a hamster on a piano b Michael 593 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:46,039 Jackson's autop scene or see a steamy scene from True Blood hopefully as both of 594 00:39:46,039 --> 00:39:50,159 the other ones are problematic. Yeah, here we go. And then I 595 00:39:50,199 --> 00:39:52,639 got this email from my good buddy Phil Hack that said, check out the 596 00:39:52,639 --> 00:39:59,360 picture. This this video rather of a hamster on a piano. Who doesn't 597 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:04,199 like seeing ham on pianos? Right? I like him. I like piano, 598 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,280 so that would be great. So I click on it and it takes 599 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:12,519 me to his website, which then generates a fake form post with JavaScript. 600 00:40:12,559 --> 00:40:17,239 And then because I was already logged into my banking site, he basically form 601 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:22,280 posted over sideways to my site and then you started a transfer to take money 602 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,920 away from me. Wow. That and I would talk to Phil about that. 603 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:30,840 That's a great talk. I mean, you know hacking Live, you 604 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:36,360 know legit, legit. Okay. So in episode five hundred and eighty two, 605 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,239 published in August twenty ten, we were talking about the web platform installer 606 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:45,480 and Richard pointed out that there were a lot of apps you could install. 607 00:40:45,559 --> 00:40:49,519 What was your reaction, A, there are more apps than you can shake 608 00:40:49,559 --> 00:40:53,000 a stick at. Sounds like you be so many apps, it's ridiculous. 609 00:40:53,519 --> 00:41:00,000 Or see a metric as load. Oh it'll be see sure about it? 610 00:41:00,039 --> 00:41:01,639 Oh yeah, okay, every question. Well, and it's a ton of 611 00:41:01,639 --> 00:41:05,280 apps in here, right, I mean there's a whole e commerce section of 612 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:10,559 this. There is a metric ass load. It's you used. But you 613 00:41:10,599 --> 00:41:14,800 know when I was researching this, fine, well, at least they use 614 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:20,760 the metric measurements because that way they are divisible. Imperiod. Yeah. But 615 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,800 you know, here's the thing. Those other two answers are legitimate. Last 616 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:29,840 very much something Yeah, all right. In episode seven and thirty one, 617 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:35,159 published January twenty twelve, I read a tweet by one Matt Rock which read 618 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,239 getting an IM from Scott Hanselman in an intro to Richard Campbell is like, 619 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:44,519 what A like my daughter getting the same from I Carly and Justin Bieber, 620 00:41:45,639 --> 00:41:49,440 B Like Bill Clinton getting a letter stating that he had won Big Max for 621 00:41:49,519 --> 00:41:54,519 Life, or CE like Lindsey Lohan accepting the Best Actress Academy Award for her 622 00:41:54,559 --> 00:41:59,079 role in the Lifetime movie Liz and Dick. I don't know what B and 623 00:41:59,159 --> 00:42:01,480 CR. So I'm going to Oh, that's good. Listen to this tweet 624 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:07,880 from Matt Rock getting an I am from Scott Hansman and an intro to rich 625 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:12,280 Campbell is like my daughter getting the same from I Carley and Justin Bieber. 626 00:42:13,159 --> 00:42:16,320 I think you're Bieber. I think Scott's Bieber. I could go with that 627 00:42:16,559 --> 00:42:22,920 nice to be very nice. Richard pulls out exactly what his reaction was. 628 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,360 Then, how you guys remember this stuff? I don't remember what I had 629 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:30,760 for lunch here. Richard remembers everything. I don't remember anything. My wife 630 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,840 hates that she remembers random conversations on random Tuesday. I don't know what day 631 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,599 it is. I'm wonder why I'm so happy in chow because I don't remember 632 00:42:38,639 --> 00:42:45,440 any worry about. In episode eight hundred with You and Rob Connery, published 633 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:49,639 September twenty twelve, you told us of a place you'd like to go to 634 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:54,760 work and watch people. Was it a Starbucks, B McDonald's or c the 635 00:42:54,840 --> 00:43:00,199 Multima County Library? What was the context? So you told us of a 636 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:06,559 place you like to go to work and watch people, Starbucks, McDonald's or 637 00:43:06,599 --> 00:43:10,360 the Multima County Library Noma County? What year is this? Twenty twelve? 638 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:15,679 Twenty twelve? McDonald's really okay? Moltoma County libraries are deep cut, but 639 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:17,639 I didn't. Let't live Indoma County. Okay, let me just come out 640 00:43:17,679 --> 00:43:24,360 and say it. I'll just confess I was at McDonald's earlier. Hang on, 641 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:30,639 mcdiabet's meal, they hang on now they have there are there's free WiFi, 642 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,840 and there are things you can buy at McDonald's that are not bad. 643 00:43:35,199 --> 00:43:38,400 There you go, You got it right, Okay, So now let's move 644 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:44,800 on episode Hey, I'm sweeping this are killing it? My goodness. In 645 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,159 episode eight hundred and five with you and Chris Sales, which we recorded on 646 00:43:47,199 --> 00:43:52,960 the twenty twelve road trip and published in September of that, we totally lost 647 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,800 control of that show. At one point just went off. You were speaking 648 00:43:55,960 --> 00:44:00,679 of how people who post comments on your blog are me and that had made 649 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:05,880 you afraid to post anything at all. And Richard asks you why you allow 650 00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:09,280 anonymous comments at all, and your answer was A I believe in free Hey, 651 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:15,320 you can't google this. What is your answer was? I believe in 652 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,039 A. I believe in free speech, even if it hurts my feelings. 653 00:44:17,559 --> 00:44:22,440 And this is why you allow anonymous comments on your blog? Twenty twelve b 654 00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:28,480 Because karma I mean mean commenters have to sleep at night too, or see 655 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,920 because I don't know how to make oth work. Oh man, probably all 656 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,280 of those, but I'm gonna go a see. Okay, here's the answer. 657 00:44:38,599 --> 00:44:42,480 Well, the question is why are you allowing anonymous comments at all? 658 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:50,679 I don't know how to make oth work. I mean, well, you 659 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:54,679 gotta give me is a huge fail. No, but you gotta give me 660 00:44:54,719 --> 00:45:00,679 credit for at least knowing myself. So the pause, that's what you answered. 661 00:45:00,679 --> 00:45:04,320 It is perfect because because I don't know how to make it well, 662 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,880 because the pause there is do I be honest? Or do I not be 663 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:12,599 honest? Do I say something funny trying to say something honest? Yeah? 664 00:45:12,599 --> 00:45:16,199 Oh my goodness. Great. Okay, so the last one here In episode 665 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:22,800 eleven and thirty one open source panel discussion at dot net Fringe, published in 666 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:30,000 eight for fifteen, you called comments by James Newton quote either elitist or mean 667 00:45:30,159 --> 00:45:34,920 after he said one of the following statements about Visual Studio. A. Linux 668 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,920 is the only operating system I will use for development. B It makes you 669 00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:42,400 want to kill yourself every time you open it or see dot net. It 670 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,039 doesn't suck anymore. This is what I said, or what he said, 671 00:45:45,079 --> 00:45:46,920 No, what he said, he said B And I called him out on 672 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:51,000 it, and he now run this thing on Linux. You can now you 673 00:45:51,039 --> 00:45:52,760 can now build it with tools that don't make you want to kill yourself every 674 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:57,440 time you open them. You can see what are statements like that helpful? 675 00:45:58,039 --> 00:46:00,960 But it depended honest, like, I hear what you're saying, because I 676 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,760 feel like seventy five percent of what you're saying I agree with, and then 677 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,400 twenty five percent is either elitist or mean. Boy, that was a tense 678 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,320 moment. Well, I mean, it was a good one. The problem 679 00:46:10,559 --> 00:46:15,920 was that he's he's, he's he has valid feedback. Sure, and if 680 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:21,000 you have good feedback, that's great, put it in an envelope and mail 681 00:46:21,039 --> 00:46:24,239 it. But if the envelope is a rock and you tape the message to 682 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:28,360 the rock and throw it through my window, I'm probably not going to read 683 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,800 the note. Yeah, you're less inclined to go along with the other side. 684 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:37,519 So I mean, I then got accused of being mean because I because 685 00:46:37,519 --> 00:46:40,039 elitist was a statement or whatever. But you know, dude, that was 686 00:46:40,079 --> 00:46:47,239 not necessary. I also remember talking to you mean yeah, but you called 687 00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:52,519 me as I was driving back from that show from as An our drivers driving 688 00:46:52,519 --> 00:46:54,960 back from Portland, and we I think we talked for three hours and then 689 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:59,559 at the end we always go, we should have recorded this every time. 690 00:46:59,599 --> 00:47:01,159 I don't. I think that one actually, that one was pretty personal. 691 00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:06,559 You just you don't. You are not normally a confrontational person. You want 692 00:47:06,599 --> 00:47:08,440 to you want to tell the truth, and I appreciate when you are. 693 00:47:09,559 --> 00:47:13,079 You know, it's not like you do it for fun. I thought it 694 00:47:13,079 --> 00:47:14,920 was a very good moment. I think most people thought it was a very 695 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:17,440 good moment. But I know, I know, I've known you long enough 696 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:21,480 to know that isn't an easy thing for you to do either, right, 697 00:47:21,639 --> 00:47:23,079 And we end up talking for quite a while about it afterwards. Well, 698 00:47:23,119 --> 00:47:25,880 yeah, I mean, you don't want to be unnecessarily confrontational, no, 699 00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:29,440 like, but I also don't want to be dismissive of people's feelings. So, 700 00:47:29,519 --> 00:47:30,559 like, you know, I do have a certain amount of like, 701 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:34,719 it's not that deep, man, for some people, it is that deep. 702 00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:39,199 Yeah, but you know you should consider I wrote a blog post called 703 00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:44,039 software and Saving Babies nice, you know, like is it software? Is 704 00:47:44,039 --> 00:47:46,840 it saving babies or is it literally baby saving software? Like you've got to 705 00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:52,000 go and think about all the different things you're working on and then compare it 706 00:47:52,039 --> 00:47:55,199 to whether or not we're saving babies. Right, maybe the wrong ad gets 707 00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:59,519 served because you're working on ad serving software, right, or maybe you're working 708 00:47:59,519 --> 00:48:01,159 on a video and the guy doesn't jump at the right time. But like, 709 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:05,760 are you saving babies? So it feels like it's a huge bug or 710 00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:07,920 it's a huge problem, but it's probably not that big of a deal to 711 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:12,280 you. Yeah, breath, it's gonna be okay, let's work the problem. 712 00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,840 So I'm very much like the older I get, the more like, 713 00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:16,880 let's just chill out, let's solve the problem. It's gonna be okay, 714 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:22,599 it's gonna be So that's naive perhaps, but also a little bit optimistic. 715 00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:24,280 Yeah, before we go, let's talk a little bit more about these mean 716 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:29,880 people who we've been referencing. Not necessarily James, but there are people out 717 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:36,079 there that love to throw darts at people with power, maybe people with celebrity, 718 00:48:36,559 --> 00:48:40,119 as a means of furthering themselves or getting noticed. Anyway. I noticed 719 00:48:40,119 --> 00:48:45,400 this in the very early days of dot net rocks. I would get people 720 00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:49,400 who couldn't just come out and say Hey, I would like to be a 721 00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,639 guest on your show. Here's what I have to say. They had to 722 00:48:52,679 --> 00:48:58,079 instead throw rocks in, you know. You mean the classic was the angry 723 00:48:58,119 --> 00:49:00,960 blog post referencing a show, right, and then we'd be people coming to 724 00:49:01,039 --> 00:49:04,280 us. You got to respond to that. I'm like, no, no, 725 00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:06,599 no, really, don't don't really want to do that. It doesn't 726 00:49:06,599 --> 00:49:08,039 make that. I'm only going to do something that makes a situation better. 727 00:49:08,559 --> 00:49:14,000 There was one of these people who was very mean. We actually ended up 728 00:49:14,079 --> 00:49:20,840 engaging them and they ended up ruining their career and that was just the way 729 00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:22,880 it went. But you know, it's sort of I'm not going to say 730 00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:28,280 who it is, but it sort of speaks to the karma of the situation 731 00:49:28,599 --> 00:49:32,920 that you never know who you're talking to or talking about. So be real 732 00:49:34,119 --> 00:49:37,800 and don't be a jerk. Well, I don't want to. I have 733 00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,079 no problem with James. I had a problem only with that sentence. Yeah, 734 00:49:40,199 --> 00:49:44,199 so I want to make sure if James is listening to this, the 735 00:49:45,599 --> 00:49:50,199 point was seventy five percent valid, and I have no problem with him. 736 00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:53,519 So yeah, I don't like it makes me uncomfortable that we're talking about people 737 00:49:53,519 --> 00:49:59,159 at all on a podcast. But I do believe in karma, and I 738 00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:02,320 do believe that if you're kind consistently for decades, then good things will happen. 739 00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:06,639 But it gets back to the very beginning of the show, the difference 740 00:50:06,639 --> 00:50:13,360 between stop energy and and yes and energy. If you're a hater for a 741 00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:17,960 long time, I'm convinced that it's going to cause high blood pressure and cholesterol 742 00:50:19,079 --> 00:50:22,280 and heart heart disease, and you know, people, it would just it 743 00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:28,400 would be very, very hard to live one hundred year plus life and everything 744 00:50:28,559 --> 00:50:32,920 sucks. Yeah, try to be positive and try to be constructive, but 745 00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:37,440 feedback. The great thing about pessimism is you usually write and occasionally pleasantly surprised. 746 00:50:40,679 --> 00:50:46,840 Now I'm a perpetual optimist. Yeah, yeah, I know that I 747 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:50,920 know that much about you, And as funny as I may be at this 748 00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,440 moment, I am too. And as I said, integrity is your middle 749 00:50:53,519 --> 00:51:00,559 name. And everybody should realize that a taco silly quiz you just did a 750 00:51:00,639 --> 00:51:05,639 proof of the integrity. Absolutely know. I'm impressed with myself because I was 751 00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:07,159 literally I had no idea. You didn't tell me there's any freaking quiz. 752 00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:09,760 That's a surprise. Yeah, you didn't tell me it's gonna be a twenty 753 00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:15,920 years of of you have recordings like you've got tapes. Franklin brought receipts. 754 00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:21,719 But at least I am nothing if not consistent. Due I learned from that. 755 00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:24,159 Yeah, you still are really red or not? Thanks for doing it's 756 00:51:24,199 --> 00:51:28,440 nineteen hundred with us, Ben, Yeah, absolutely my pleasure. Thank you. 757 00:51:28,679 --> 00:51:31,559 Be sure to listen to handsle minutes. Yeah, yeah, that's right, 758 00:51:31,559 --> 00:51:34,880 because this is also a handsome minute, isn't it. Yeah, we'll 759 00:51:35,079 --> 00:51:37,559 turn around, we'll make this hands minutes as well. That'll be fantastic. 760 00:51:37,639 --> 00:51:45,159 Yeah, all right, we'll see you next time. I'm dotting it right. 761 00:52:00,039 --> 00:52:02,960 Dot net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop 762 00:52:04,039 --> 00:52:08,719 Studios, a full service audio, video and post production facility located physically in 763 00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:15,159 New London, Connecticut, and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot 764 00:52:15,159 --> 00:52:17,840 com. Visit our website at d O T N E t R O c 765 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:23,079 k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, 766 00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:28,639 and access to the full archives going back to show number one, recorded in 767 00:52:28,679 --> 00:52:31,480 September two thousand and two, and make sure you check out our sponsors. 768 00:52:31,639 --> 00:52:36,280 They keep us in business. Now, go write some code. See you 769 00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:40,599 next time. You got Jamal Vans and