Hi, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Nonprofits. Now
for this story, we're going to head back to school in Minnesota this time,
and Eli is going to be driving the bus there. Eli, what
do you got for us? A Minnesota Republican lawmaker opposed a major education bill
that, among other things, would prevent book banning by school districts. The
specific section of SF thirty five sixty seven that State Senator Glenn Grenhagen opposes would
allow parents to restrict material for their own children, as well as allow librarians
or other qualified individuals to restrict the availability of materials at their discretion, as
long as those choices are not based on viewpoint, content, message, idea,
or opinion conveyed. Glen Glenhagen argues that liberals are actually okay with censorship
because they've been in that business already, and in the same speech argued that
refusing to teach creationism in science class is just such censorship. This seems to
be Gg's effort to get those ridiculous nonfiction books out of his school's libraries.
This article is by the one and only hem Meta at The Friendly Atheist on
May seventh, twenty twenty four. Now before we really get into this.
I know, Eli, you look back, you looked in the Greenhagen's background
bit for us. Can you tell us what kind of person he is?
Yeah? So he Glenner is a climate change denier, is a Christian nationalist,
which is pretty clear based on what he's saying here. In twenty twenty
three, he proposed what he called the Critical Thinking Bill hemet Meta linked to
in this article. He wrote about the bill that Gwenhagen proposed that would have
school districts teaching that and this is a direct quote. Sickness, disease,
pain, suffering, and death are consequences imposed by the Creator, and that's
something he wanted to be taught in schools. It was his education plan.
So it's clear he's trying to push his religious views into government. And this
guy has absolutely no business there. I won't tell him that he can't have
his religious beliefs, but man, do I want him fired? Cynthia?
Do you think that his reasoning is flawed? And it's so why it's unsurprisingly
flawed? Kelly, I kind of expected you to tell me that. Well,
I mean, he trots out the tired old creationist talking points, like
the cosmological argument, and the watchmaker analogy. He suggests that because a computer
has a maker, the far more complex human eye must have also a creator.
And that's classic. I mean, how many times have we have heard
these particular tropes said on some of the Collins shows, like The Atheist Experienced,
Talk Heathen and also on Truth Wanted over and over and over again.
I mean, like, and you know, I feel bad, guys,
can I can I confess something? May I can find something? Please?
Yes? Thank you. When I was a Christian, I also espouse some
of the same flawed reasoning, especially with look at the eye. It is
so complex. See this eye? So obviously, if it's so complex,
God made it that way, right, But in actuality, no, that
was not the case. The eye, along with human beings being an ape
species, basically evolved as time went on for us to be able to survive
in our surroundings. That's called evolution, folks. So this whole thing about
him trotting out these particular analogies that have no particular merit whatsoever, is,
as I said, unsurprisingly flawed. Yeah. I'd have to agree with you.
And I think a lot of these tropes that he pulls out, I
think I don't think they really land with non Christians. I think they mostly
just solidify their own Christian ideologies right now. Well, the bill itself has
a lot of problems. You know, in Illinois last year they passed a
law banning book banning, and I thought that was a great thing. I
think they've done a lot of great things with the government in Illinois moving forward
state government. But this bill, I'm not so sure about. What are
your thoughts on the bill? E Lie, I kind of agree with you
on that, that's a little bit. I'm not sure about this. So
I think that once you get into like deciding what information is available to who,
now you're constructing their reality and that like I've told people that like in
social relationships, like no matter what the truth is, just tell me the
truth because I make decisions based on information that I gather, and if I
don't have good information, I can't make good choices. Kids need to make
choices about the world too. Kids need good information and they need all of
it, and we don't need to worry so much about them getting the wrong
information the false information. Teach them how to determine what is good and what's
not, and critical thinking skills once you get to the point where you're restricting
what's available, you are constructing the reality that you want for another person,
and that's just not right. I don't think. Yeah, I agree with
you. I think everybody knows. I've raised a couple of kids, and
I thought that was one of the most important things that I did, was
to get them to understand how the question everything. You know, Jimmy,
do you think that there's a larger story to be told here? Yeah?
I do think there is a larger story because we are focused on I'm sorry,
I can okay, great, Yeah, yeah, so good. Well,
yeah, there's a large story because while we're focused on talking about,
you know, the bill and the opposition to that bill by set elected officials,
I think what we need to really be talking about as well are the
fact that some of the elected officials that are just finding their way into government
still lack a certain aptitude. I mean, I'm not surprised, just like
Cynthia said that this guy is a Christian nationalist, a creationist. He has
absolutely no idea how the United States was founded because he believes it was founded
on Christian principles. Now, we might be a Christian influenced society. But
the document, the Constitution basically or clearly states that there's going to be a
separation of religion and government, and the various sects of Christianity were very much
the ones that the founders had in mind when they put it together. This
guy thinking that creationism is science is ridiculous. It might be good for literature,
might be good for history or philosophy, but it's certainly not good in
science. That's just unfounded and unfounded claim at this day and age, you
know, considering what we know, it's just it's crazy. It's ridiculous.
But these people keep finding their way in, and you know, I almost
wonder should we be having a discussion on qualifications now. I'm of the mindset
that yes, we should have free and fair and open elections and an equal
society where everybody has the same opportunities. But men are there are just some
jobs where we need a little bit more discretion. I can think of.
I can even think of a couple of people in Washington, DC that probably
shouldn't be there because they're not mentally capable. I would say, I don't
want to mention any names, but I bet everybody can think of at least
two or three. So I see Cynthia making a face over there. Now
Grewenhagen has the spouse ideas of another controversial character, has any Cynthia? Oh
goodness, well let's see. Well I was thinking of David Barton. Okay,
yeah, that is I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Kelly, I'm trying
to go on with that. Oh yeah, are you talking about in this
nostalgia for you know, his pseudohistory? Yeah, right, right, yeah,
Because Barton is kind of a kind of a crazy character to begin with.
So when you've grew and Hagen following this guy's ideology, it's pretty it's
it's kind of a red flag to me. Yeah. It was his insistence
on conflating democracy with mob rule, and you know, and basically saying that,
you know, with this particular mob rule that it will reveal a deep
misunderstanding of both American governance and also and scientific and I'm sorry in inquiry.
So he has this desire to inject religious methodology into the public education under the
guise of free speech. And it's not just misguided, but it's also very
dangerous. So oftentimes if you are taking different portions of your belief system,
as we talked about many times before, and injecting into curriculum and teaching it
as factual in a scientific atmosphere. What's that's going to do is is going
to melt the minds that you're actually teaching as this is fact, this is
the way of the world, this is how it's supposed to go. But
if it's actually against the methodology that we have come up with, this scientific
method, which I think is a pretty good method in order for us to
figure out what's the closest state of fact or not. You know, we're
putting into these particular myths, legends, things of that nature that's coming from
a book of fables into curricula that is supposed to be set up specifically for
teaching kids how the world works. That's what science does. We're taking that
particularly out. That's not going to be a good thing. Jimmy, we
lost it for a little minute, and I wanted to hear your thoughts on
the actual bill itself. We talked about a little bit while you were gone,
but I wanted to get your thoughts as well. Well. Of course,
I am not going to be in favor of banning any books, but
on that note, you know, I actually have a problem, or maybe
a slight issue with the bill, just one aspect that says children will be
at will have access to certain books or literature in the school with the help
or at the discretion of qualified individuals. What makes a qualified individual my theory
is, or not my theory, but my perspective is, if it's in
the school, then it's all ready been qualified, right, they don't need
any more discretionary practices or people trying to restrict access. I would say that,
you know, if the book is in the library, the child or
the student should have access to it. We shouldn't be trying to dissuade them
from going in any direction and seeking knowledge, finding that knowledge wherever they may.
Now, there are, of course some things that probably shouldn't be in
elementary school or high school libraries, but we also need to make that a
blanket policy. So for example, if you want to eliminate things that have
homosexuality in it, or murder or what have you, then we got to
look at banning the Bible and the Koran as well, right, we got
we gotta keep things consistent and make it fair for the kids' education. But
yeah, I mean I think that the nature and spirit of the bill is
good and you know, minus a few little hang ups I have with some
of the verbiage or maybe how these policy is being acted, you know,
this is exactly what we need to see, uh more of Yeah, I
agree, I agree. We certainly don't want to teach third graders how to
make napalm. Say, but yeah, I agree that you should be able
to have most information available to most children. I don't have a problem with
that at all. Eli. Going back to you, if you do you
think we should have some kind of like a committee maybe overseeing the book buying
at a at a school library or do you think because they you know,
as Jimmy mentioned that, they mentioned that they talked about qualified people, do
you think it should be up to one person a libraryan or maybe a committee?
And should it be somebody in the library or outside the library? I
think definitely not one person. I think that's I think that's too much for
one person because historically, when we see you know, people get into positions
of power and authority that it almost always goes at least a little bad.
Like nobody ever does that flawlessly, and it's been like a bash and of
you know, good leadership and authoritarianism. But I think if that's the route
that's being taken, I think a good route is to have you have a
committee with some oversight, then you know, with an external committee overseeing that
one to ensure like that way, the first committee is checking and balancing each
other to make sure, like know, these these are the reasons for which
we can restrict material, and these are the only reasons for which we restrict
material. And you don't get to, you know, take your personal beliefs
and then kind of word silent them a little bit and you know, make
it sound like it fits one of these criteria for the purpose of getting it
out. We're we're going to make sure we're doing this the right way.
And then to have an external committee overseeing that one would just be another layer
of protection, you could say. I think that would be a reasonable way
to at least give it a shot. Jimmy, you talked about how Senator
Gruenhagen's proclivity to characterize politics as mob rule, and Cynthia mentioned that came up
as of Burns philosophy as well. Now, do you think that it might
be that their side of the aisle might be causing some of that mobral.
Well, I think that in recent years, especially the last eight years,
we have seen the conservative right of this country's political spectrum frequently turned towards marborol
right. And you know, I say that hesitantly because I do think that
there are some conservatives in our government that I have a great deal of respect
for, even if I disagree with them. But you know, it's like
my favorite this has got to be one of my favorite movie quotes of all
time. But it comes from the great Jeff Goldblum and the character that he
played in UH Independence Day and he said a person is smart, but people
are stupid. I think it was Jeff Goldblum. But a person is smart
and people are stupid. Right, And I think that the conservatives in this
country are coalescing around this idea that they have to take things by strength and
by force if it doesn't go their way. Where could we Where do we
see this kind of influence coming from? Well, exactly the kinds of places
that they get their dogma, their doctrine from, right, the Bible or
more traditional conservative ideologies that result with or look at let's say military use as
as a first cause. Right, So in the conservative political spectrum. They're
typically associated with using the military earlier as an option for diplomacy, right,
Or they're concerned with security, They're concerned with their own safety. I mean,
these are things that manifest themselves into this kind of behavior, this coalescing
around this idea that there needs to be some kind of fight, there needs
to be this strong man. And I am not surprised at all that he
is that this thought process has not only entered his psyche but is now spilling
out right characterizing politics as mobrel I think Hamitt Meta, the author, very
astutely and adequately identified that, and I thought Cynthia made a great point as
well. Yeah, I mean I'm a little bit concerned about how that plays
out in our political spectrum now, Cynthia, you know, Jimmy had a
great point there, and there does seem to be a lot more aggressiveness coming
from this side of the aisle, from particular from the Christian right as well.
Do you think this is maybe just the last throws of a dying animal.
Is that something we can look forward to in the future that we will
defeat this. I'm hoping that reason actually rules, but I'm not really sure
Kelly. And the reason why I say that is because it seems like that
when we are on the precipice of actually having reason and rationality being the center
of our politics, something cups comes in and just completely upends it, you
know, and we saw this, like you know, I would agree with
Jimmy in the past eight years, how that has completely been upended by people
who want to make sure that the status quos is kept as far as like
how we are ruling and even how you know, our curriculum is showing up
in schools right if they're there. There was a push I would, I
want to say, about twelve thirteen years ago, to be heavily push pushing
step in and especially in public schools to keep up with emerging technologies and also
making sure that kids are going to be prepared for the world that is going
to be ahead of them, because as we know, as time goes on,
we're going to be more you know, scientifically a technology based. Right.
However, it just seems like that we're just having people that are pushing
in government and also you know, people who are influencing those who happen to
be sitting in influencial seats to completely undermine that and take it away. It's
almost like that they're trying to dull our kids with pushing these particular you know
things, these myths and legends as I mentioned previously, instead of actually teaching
a fact and scientific methodology and things that have improven and things that exist and
things that actually are in reality and how they are applied in today's society.
It's very concerning. And I know that we have talked at length about the
erosion of people going to church, the rays of the nuns, right.
We talked a lot about the different research that actually that's behind this. But
I'm almost feeling like this moral majority, which maybe be like the minority per
se, it's still very much so loud and organized, even though they fight
amongst themselves, and they're still very much so influential about how our legislation and
also how you know, our schools show up in today. Now. I
know all three of you have young children. I'm past that point fortunately for
me. But are you are the three of you concerned about your children in
public schools in the future. And I'll start with Eli. I mean,
we're gonna talk strictly about curriculum. I think I'm for my son in particular,
I'm not really concerned because if my son is anything like me, you
know, I think he's going to be good at learning, and he seems
to be like he does great, he's phenomenal, so I think it won't
be hard. A lot of the education roles on the parents as well,
and I think a lot of parents forget that, especially the ones that want
to, you know, restrict reading materials in their school's libraries. And I
can talk to my son when he starts talking about ghosts or magic and or
or you know, God, when he goes to church with his mom.
When he's with her, I can talk to him and just I don't even
have to tell him like, oh, I don't believe that. And here's
why. I can ask him questions about it and have him think about it
on his own and determine on his own what he thinks is true or not.
And that's all we're all really doing. Yeah, I think for the
same reason, I'm not as concerned as I could be if I were in
an area that this was more common. You know, we came to a
place where we really trust the public school system, and we want to stay
here for our children's benefit. And so for that reason, I think I
think that I'm I'm okay. I think I'm okay because I, as a
parent, am going to take on a lot of the responsibility for educating my
children, and if there's something they come across in school, you know,
I make sure to teach them that that needs to be questioned. If it
can be destroyed by the truth, it deserves to be destroyed by the truth,
right. And then if something ever happens to me, you know,
my wife is a wonderful mother, incredibly intelligent, and I think that she
would do absolutely great. But yeah, parents, parents need to be guiding
their kids. Yeah, I agree. And Cynthia, what how about you?
Well? As alum of Catholic schools and being recently unfriended by my seventh
grade Catholic school teacher for saying atheist things, Yeah, that happened. Congratulations,
they know. I feel so accomplished. I feel so accomplished. One
of the things that I have decided for for my little boy is to make
sure that some thoughts of criticism, of critical thinking and skepticism is always going
to be a part of his daily life. And I definitely want him to
question and even though that, you know, for the most part, he's
probably going to end up like in you know, in he's probably going to
be in the public school education system. I there's still going to be times
where he may there may be some influence of Christianity is on whatever that I
may have to like, you know, kind of uh walk him through and
and really you know, take him through the you know, the skeptic track
about you know, is this fact, is this fiction? Why or why
not? So I am in that Illinois area where you know, the band
on book banning has happened, and I'm very glad about that. However,
I know that there's still always going to be teachers that are there that are
you know, feel that they're teaching as God said. And I know that
I'm probably going to have to intervene and say no, God said not,
and you will not do that in my case. Yeah, I think we
have to really be protective of our kids' lives. I really do. And
so thank you Cynthia for that. And speaking of life, I had the
time of my life last year on the back cruise, and now you could
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