WEBVTT

1
00:00:03.240 --> 00:00:08.439
With Laurent segel And from London and
Gerard Reed from Berlin. This is redefining

2
00:00:08.720 --> 00:00:15.519
energy minutes minutes one nine and Jad, I think we're going to focus around

3
00:00:15.679 --> 00:00:21.559
China because Europe then even recently and
you started truing videos about how we in

4
00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:25.879
that reason, everybody start freaking out. Well, they started freaking out for

5
00:00:25.920 --> 00:00:31.440
lots of reasons. One is because
in particular the American side of delegation,

6
00:00:31.679 --> 00:00:33.719
they were coming out of saying all
right, well, we need to go

7
00:00:33.799 --> 00:00:37.759
an in source all production Tea into
North America and Europe. We need to

8
00:00:37.799 --> 00:00:43.359
really break our dependency on China on
solar panels and we shouldn't be buying electric

9
00:00:43.399 --> 00:00:48.600
cars from them. And then on
the European side, I had a regulator

10
00:00:49.280 --> 00:00:53.600
in Europe saying, yeah, what
we need to do is we need to

11
00:00:53.640 --> 00:00:58.759
go and put excise taxes on Chinese
evs going forward and support our industry.

12
00:00:59.479 --> 00:01:03.280
And I was sort of I decided
not to go into the discussion because I

13
00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:06.200
didn't wanted to get too political.
We actually had Chinese in the room and

14
00:01:06.599 --> 00:01:10.680
I avoided it. But it really
just stuck at me, and what struck

15
00:01:10.799 --> 00:01:15.079
me really more than anything else Lurana
is it's very difficult for Europe because we're

16
00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:19.760
stuck in the middle between the China. I could also say between Russia and

17
00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:22.959
North America. It's really difficult for
us. Yet, if we're smart,

18
00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:26.400
we need to take the best of
all worlds. We need to take us

19
00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:29.920
gas and we need to take Chinese
solar. And look, I'm going to

20
00:01:29.959 --> 00:01:33.959
give you an example because I think
that sometimes we are fighting the wrong fights.

21
00:01:34.480 --> 00:01:38.599
I see those European declaration we need
forty percent of our panel done inside

22
00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:42.480
Europe. Oh they forgot to say, oh, we need forty percent of

23
00:01:42.519 --> 00:01:47.760
our smartphone producing Europe. Well,
guess what, ninety nine percent of our

24
00:01:47.799 --> 00:01:52.439
smartphone they come from China. Okay, there's nothing wrong about that. The

25
00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:56.959
interesting is how much value do we
put on batteries or do we put on

26
00:01:57.319 --> 00:02:00.400
panel? And I'm going to give
you an example. And you know as

27
00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:04.879
much as I do, but probably
our listeners don't. Is whenever the company

28
00:02:04.959 --> 00:02:08.000
we have invested in put the solar
panel on the top of a roof,

29
00:02:08.560 --> 00:02:14.639
they're going to charge roughly twenty thousand
yoo. But inside there's only two thousand

30
00:02:15.039 --> 00:02:21.159
of Chinese material. So we are
creating ninety percent of extra value with European

31
00:02:21.240 --> 00:02:24.960
jobs around the energy transition, and
okay, we have ten percent of Chinese

32
00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:29.919
panel and matt pea with that.
Oh no, no, I'm totally chlone.

33
00:02:29.960 --> 00:02:31.840
I have the exact same view and
all of this, and I think

34
00:02:31.879 --> 00:02:36.039
what I take out of it is
and I just think this is for our

35
00:02:36.039 --> 00:02:40.240
listeners to hear this is that what
China does is China is dominating not along

36
00:02:40.360 --> 00:02:46.719
the production of all of these different
technologies, whether they're solar or wind turbines

37
00:02:46.879 --> 00:02:53.240
or evs, they're also dominating the
implementation of these technologies in their systems.

38
00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:58.080
That's what they're doing. Half the
world's solar panels are actually installed in China

39
00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:00.000
to day, you know what I
mean. So they're putting their money in

40
00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:04.800
where the mouth is. Yeah,
And it's one of the few industrial policy

41
00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:09.120
has been functioning well because trying to
have local components for everything. I mean,

42
00:03:09.159 --> 00:03:13.319
we've seen that in India, we've
seen that in Brazil. Now we're

43
00:03:13.360 --> 00:03:17.080
seeing it in the US. Never
really worked, now I can understand.

44
00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:23.560
And if you go really to the
reptilian the reptilian brain of those people in

45
00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:29.759
the US, it's simple. It's
drill baby, drill. In Europe is

46
00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:37.159
regulate, baby regulate, and in
China is build baby built. That's how

47
00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:39.840
I see it. I like Laurent, I like it. You're right,

48
00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:46.319
Europe regulate, baby regulates. You're
absolutely right. Oh my god. And

49
00:03:46.360 --> 00:03:52.039
by the way, that's why I
can see a regulator saying we need to

50
00:03:52.120 --> 00:03:57.759
regulate to actually stop these Chinese cars
coming in. What's very interesting is is

51
00:03:57.800 --> 00:04:02.319
to hear the reaction of the the
BMW and Mercedes CEO which said the exact

52
00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:06.240
object which we can do that,
and the reason is is because they're exporters

53
00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:11.280
and they know that you're in a
global export market and the only way to

54
00:04:11.319 --> 00:04:15.639
beat the competition is to be as
good as them or better than them.

55
00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:20.959
And if you get subsidies and impose
import taxes on your competitors, well guess

56
00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:25.800
what they do. It means that
you will lose market share in the rest

57
00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:28.199
of the world. Maybe not in
Europe, but in the rest of the

58
00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:31.279
world. Right now, let's be
clear, there are some industry that we

59
00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:35.319
can sell deem strategy and needs to
be protected. I have no problem with

60
00:04:35.399 --> 00:04:38.720
that, but that this government needs
to be clear about it. And the

61
00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:43.240
cost is going to take still okay, fine, stell is going to be

62
00:04:43.319 --> 00:04:48.319
decarbonized, not because of the carbon
market or the target still is being decarbonized.

63
00:04:48.360 --> 00:04:51.560
Because if you are Salo Mitail and
you go to Belgium and say I

64
00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:55.879
want a billion euro for a new
plant, and the guys say, okay,

65
00:04:56.240 --> 00:04:59.079
you got it, and then Spain's
going to propose you know one point

66
00:04:59.160 --> 00:05:02.600
two. That's fine with me,
but at least it's clear. I think

67
00:05:02.639 --> 00:05:08.560
it's important to protect our wind industry
because it's a very powerful ecosystem. I

68
00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:13.759
think it's important to protect our auto
industry. But for the basic components,

69
00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:16.600
I have no problem having cattle batteries
and you know BMW, which is by

70
00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:19.959
the way, what they are doing, and they're very successful, by the

71
00:05:19.959 --> 00:05:24.800
way. That's the way, whether
we like it lump. My view would

72
00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:29.319
be regards to China is that we
have to cooperate and compete with them at

73
00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:32.279
the same time. That's how you
do it. But the second you don't

74
00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:36.560
cooperate with them, you just set
at a disadvantage. Because the reality is

75
00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:42.079
I saw a statistic the other day
which was that China, in terms of

76
00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:46.920
patents in the whole clean energy space, battery, solar, wind etcetera.

77
00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:51.759
They have three times the level of
patents compared to the United States and Europe

78
00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:57.439
combined. So that's the reality of
it. They are leading technologically in a

79
00:05:57.439 --> 00:06:01.279
lot of these areas, and for
one reason and one only in my personal

80
00:06:01.319 --> 00:06:06.399
opinion, it's called twelve million barrel
of oil imported per day, whereas the

81
00:06:06.519 --> 00:06:11.480
US is self sufficient. Look,
if you have an oil industry, if

82
00:06:11.480 --> 00:06:15.959
you have gas at one dollar and
metu, I understand you don't want to

83
00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:20.120
put Chinese solar panels and you're going
to dismiss the carbon effects of burning gas

84
00:06:20.199 --> 00:06:24.279
because you know you're swimming in gas
and it's very cheap, thank you very

85
00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:29.800
much. But not everybody's the US. I'm sure if we're the permium basin

86
00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:33.079
in the middle of Europe, we
probably would not have been so cozy with

87
00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:41.399
Russia or push for hun wabbles.
But there are geographical realities that people countries

88
00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:45.879
who have to import energy guess what
they want to go greener. I like

89
00:06:45.959 --> 00:06:49.040
what you said, and there's no
doubt that the European perspectives are saying because

90
00:06:49.040 --> 00:06:55.600
we're also important in the EU,
probably in barrels all right, So six

91
00:06:56.079 --> 00:06:59.319
six, okay, all right?
Important outside. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

92
00:06:59.399 --> 00:07:02.480
So you got is two very big
importers of energy because we didn't c

93
00:07:02.759 --> 00:07:06.639
gas etcetera, etcetera in that and
we have the same motivations. So I

94
00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:13.240
understand that. What I don't understand
is why Europe has no joint of industrial

95
00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:15.680
policy. You can have all the
industrial policy you want, but if you

96
00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:20.000
end up having an INDUS health policy
on hydrogen, which is stupid and corrupt,

97
00:07:20.600 --> 00:07:25.240
at some point, you need entrepreneurs, You need human capital, and

98
00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:29.319
if you put your human capital in
hydrogen, you're going to go nowhere because

99
00:07:29.360 --> 00:07:32.079
that is just a fuel that's too
expensive. You can say, oh,

100
00:07:32.120 --> 00:07:36.279
I want twenty new nuclear plants within
ten years. Guess what, you don't

101
00:07:36.279 --> 00:07:41.079
have the human capital to put twenty
nuclear plant in next ten years. So

102
00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:46.000
you can write all the targets you
want and ambitions and conferences and pledges and

103
00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:49.720
blah blah blah, if you don't
have the human capital and also the financial

104
00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:54.759
markets to back them and the price
signal to back them. If you're tweaking

105
00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:58.199
with prices all the time, you
can write all the power points you want,

106
00:07:58.240 --> 00:08:01.360
you will get nothing. I agree
with you, my friend. That's

107
00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:03.800
my rant. That's my rant.
And I'm not going to disagree with you,

108
00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:07.040
but I tell you what, we
do need to dig in more into

109
00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:11.680
it because sometimes the statistics that come
out of China are really unbelievable. And

110
00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:16.680
I give you a very simple example
was that last year there was more solar

111
00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:20.360
installed in China than the wars in
the world the year before. Whether that's

112
00:08:20.439 --> 00:08:22.560
right or not, I don't know, but you know where coming from it.

113
00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:24.800
And then I look at the beginning
of the year and I was looking

114
00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:30.319
at the estimates for China and like
the consultancy firms were like fifty percent the

115
00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:33.559
same evs. So I sort of
look at this and go, yeah,

116
00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:35.519
we need to dig into it more, is where I'm coming from, right,

117
00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:41.399
Yeah, So we will invite a
great China expert to have a show

118
00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:46.279
with us in the coming weeks,
and we'll be able to really understand what's

119
00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:50.120
going on, if we need to
fear China, if we need to emulate

120
00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:54.600
China. But I think people are
getting a bit hysterically here, so it's

121
00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:58.720
good to have a good conversation with
somebody who know what he's talking about.

122
00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:05.399
I'll look forward to it. Holauren, Okay, what you laugh at at

123
00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:07.919
is and you're saying, is Jared, you haveing a clue what you're talking

124
00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:09.600
about. That's what you're saying.
That's all right, we get an expert

125
00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:13.159
in right. I'm glad to hear
that. Okay, John, great talking

126
00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:18.919
to you. Took next week,
look forward to it. Thank you for

127
00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:24.600
listening to Redefining Energy. Don't forget
to rate the show and subscribe on Apple,

128
00:09:24.679 --> 00:09:28.519
Podcast, Spotify, or the platform
of your choice.