WEBVTT 1 00:00:14.800 --> 00:00:20.320 Hello, and welcome to Western Sieve. In today's Bonus Author Interview, I 2 00:00:20.399 --> 00:00:25.079 sit down with Martin Rady and we talk about his most recent book, The 3 00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:31.519 Middle Kingdoms, a New History of Central Europe. This is an ambitious book, 4 00:00:31.600 --> 00:00:34.679 to say the least. It covers, Oh, I don't know, 5 00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:42.799 almost two thousand years of history for an area that is one of the largest 6 00:00:43.439 --> 00:00:48.039 in Europe. So it's Central Europe has always forgotten, but it's really important 7 00:00:48.039 --> 00:00:52.439 to keep it in mind, especially sort of the crossroads of Europe. And 8 00:00:52.479 --> 00:00:56.880 it's of course in the news even still today. So I'm gonna sit down 9 00:00:56.960 --> 00:01:00.679 with Mark Rady today and talk about the book. Not gonna get all the 10 00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:06.200 way through it. It is over five hundred pages in length, as it 11 00:01:06.280 --> 00:01:11.120 sits here next to me right now, covers a lot of different topics. 12 00:01:11.359 --> 00:01:14.560 I had hoped to get to Napoleon. We didn't get to Napoleon. We 13 00:01:14.599 --> 00:01:18.719 got to the Thirty Years War instead. But we're starting with Rome and the 14 00:01:18.760 --> 00:01:22.079 influences of the Huns, so I guess that's still kind of an accomplishment. 15 00:01:23.079 --> 00:01:26.000 Before we get started here, just a quick reminder all the links in the 16 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:30.280 show notes that there always will be anna link to purchase the book there is 17 00:01:30.760 --> 00:01:34.959 present as well, So without further ado, then on to the interview. 18 00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:42.000 All right, as I mentioned, I'm sitting down with historian Martin Brady. 19 00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:46.959 Rady did it that wrong the first time, got it. So we're here. 20 00:01:46.959 --> 00:01:49.760 We're talking about his book The Middle Kingdoms, which is about Central Europe, 21 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:55.680 which is the part of Europe that was never discussed when I was a 22 00:01:55.760 --> 00:01:59.599 history major in college. It was just sort of there's France and England and 23 00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:02.680 German at some point, and then I think there's some countries in the middle 24 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:07.439 there, but we're never going to talk about those. So a good breath 25 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:12.400 of fresh air with this topic today. But I was hoping by joining us, 26 00:02:12.400 --> 00:02:15.520 you could start out by at least defining what we mean when we say 27 00:02:15.639 --> 00:02:19.360 central Europe, because I'm not sure everybody's on the same page on that one. 28 00:02:20.280 --> 00:02:23.280 What central Europe does tend to differ a little depending upon who you're talking 29 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:30.240 to. The earliest reference to Central Europe who was called in German Middle Europe, 30 00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:34.919 and the earliest reference to Middle Europe that I found is from eighteen oh 31 00:02:35.039 --> 00:02:43.319 five, and it really is the area between France and Russia, and that 32 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:46.719 is what the author a man called George Hastle described it as that area, 33 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:54.120 that part of Europe that isn't in Turkish occupation, as the Balkans, most 34 00:02:54.120 --> 00:03:00.919 of the Balkans, was that area between, if you like, the Rhine 35 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:06.120 and the Russian frontier. Now, of course these are this is a political 36 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:10.520 description that he gives. He references states, he goes beyond that and says 37 00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:19.479 Central Europe is the free bit of Europe which isn't under French absolutism and isn't 38 00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:23.439 under Russian autocracy. It's a nice part of Europe, if you like. 39 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:30.560 And that was more or less the definition of Central Europe that prevailed right through 40 00:03:30.599 --> 00:03:35.879 to the Second World War. It always had Germany in it. Poland was 41 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:40.400 there or it wasn't there, depending upon whether Poland actually existed. Hungary was 42 00:03:40.439 --> 00:03:46.400 there, Bohemia, the Czech Republic that they were there, Austria was always 43 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:52.479 there. People weren't sure what to do with Belgium and the Netherlands. I 44 00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:55.719 have in my book left out Belgium and the Netherlands, but I have included 45 00:03:55.800 --> 00:04:05.639 Frezier, and I've made largely the Rhine Frontier and Poland the limits of the 46 00:04:05.719 --> 00:04:11.960 book, and not going very much into the Balkans, although I do discuss 47 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:17.519 Slovenia and Croatia well. And it's worth pointing out immediately that the book covers 48 00:04:18.439 --> 00:04:26.879 about two thousand years ish of history, and so I think you're well within 49 00:04:26.959 --> 00:04:30.319 your rights not to include the Balkans, or you know, it would have 50 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:35.519 been eight hundred pages and nine five hundred, six hundred pages. But you 51 00:04:35.560 --> 00:04:40.199 know, this is Western CIV Podcast, So it's time for the obligatory Rome 52 00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:44.680 questions. You know, let's go back to the Roman Empire, because that 53 00:04:45.079 --> 00:04:48.199 is kind of to an extent where the book sort of begins to get into 54 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:53.959 the history of Central Europe. And I don't think most people think of Central 55 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:57.000 Europe when they think of Rome. I think you probably think of Western Europe. 56 00:04:57.000 --> 00:04:58.800 You think of Italy, and you do you think of the Balkan states 57 00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:01.040 and so on and so forth. But Central Europe you probably most of my 58 00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:05.000 listeners probably consider a little bit too far afield. But I think it's worth 59 00:05:06.040 --> 00:05:11.800 wondering for a moment, you know, what was there a Roman influence in 60 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:15.199 this area of Central Europe as we have just defined it just now, And 61 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:19.959 you know, to what extent was that prevalent during the Roman period they I 62 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:26.040 mean, it is surprising how much actually of Central Europe is within the Roman 63 00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:31.519 Empire. I mean, the boundaries of the Roman Empire are essentially the Rhine 64 00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:35.759 and the Danube, and that includes quite a large chunk of western Germany, 65 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:42.560 it includes the large chunk of Austria. Switzerland was also included, and then 66 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:46.399 of course as one goes down the Danube, one hits what is now Romania 67 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:51.879 Transylvania that was incorporated in the Roman Empire. And of course the other point 68 00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:57.439 about the Roman Empire is that we tend to think in terms of lines on 69 00:05:57.600 --> 00:06:02.759 maps, but influence is far more important, and there are two different types 70 00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:09.720 of influences, the versus military influence. The Roman Empire is operating way beyond 71 00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:17.079 its borders. There are forts Roman forts built in Czech Republic. Their massive 72 00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:23.800 fortifications on the Great Hungarian Plain between the province of Dasia and the Province of 73 00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:28.199 Pannonia, the bit that lies outside the Roman Empire. According to all the 74 00:06:28.240 --> 00:06:33.879 maps, they're huge fortifications. There's a sort of Hadrian's wall earthwork wall that's 75 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:39.800 built to keep back the tribe of the Psalmatians. So there's a lot of 76 00:06:39.839 --> 00:06:46.519 military influence as well, but the cultural influence is important. The barbarian tribes 77 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:50.519 living beyond the border, they want access to Rome, they want access to 78 00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:56.639 the wealth of the Roman Empire, and having destroyed the Roman Empire, they 79 00:06:56.759 --> 00:07:05.160 nevertheless are aware of the monumental legacy of it. And it's you know, 80 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:10.399 one has to bear in mind that we talk about the Holy Roman Empire. 81 00:07:10.639 --> 00:07:15.480 Its official name was the Roman Empire, and it is as the Roman Empire 82 00:07:15.560 --> 00:07:19.560 that it existed right through to the beginning of the nineteenth century, and we 83 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:26.920 call them Holy Roman empress. They thought of themselves as Roman emperors in direct 84 00:07:26.959 --> 00:07:31.439 line of, if you like, ideological descent from the old Roman emperors of 85 00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:39.639 ancient Rome. So the influence military and cultural is quite significant. I think, 86 00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:46.480 yeah, sometimes I don't think we sometimes I do think. Rather, 87 00:07:46.040 --> 00:07:51.480 that's one of the most damaging things that we do for especially younger history students, 88 00:07:51.480 --> 00:07:56.519 has show them a map that's colored in with lines and say, okay, 89 00:07:56.519 --> 00:07:59.680 well, these people lived on this side of the line and these people 90 00:07:59.720 --> 00:08:03.519 lived on that side of the line, which, of course in pre modern 91 00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:07.800 history is ludicrous at any time that you're trying to say it. But it 92 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:15.319 also just sometimes we oversimplify things to such a strong extent that we end up 93 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:20.240 actually not telling the truth anymore, when there was a lot of interaction between 94 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:24.399 areas well beyond the Rhine, well beyond the Danube, even in the Roman 95 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:28.920 imperial period, and just coloring this section of the map read and saying this 96 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:35.000 is Roman, this isn't is against one of those oversimplifications that I don't think 97 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:37.159 does this any justice. But of course one of the one of the reasons 98 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:43.320 for the ultimate collapse of the Roman Empire are those barbarian incursions and one of 99 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:48.200 the impetus for the movement of people, you know, are some of those 100 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:52.679 and we'll talk about a couple of these groups today, But these step riders 101 00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:56.559 who come in from the east, and you know, if I'm talking about 102 00:08:56.600 --> 00:09:01.399 the Romans, of course, I'm talking about the Huns, and so I 103 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:05.919 think it's worth talking about for a second. You know, how important were 104 00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:11.879 these incursions of horse archer step peoples who would you know, from time to 105 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:16.879 time sort of like a hurricane almost of blowing into Central Europe. I think 106 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:22.960 they're absolutely critical really in determining the shape and the history of Central Europe, 107 00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:28.799 and it carries on all the way through really to the eighteenth century, in 108 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:37.480 the form of the Tartars of the step who are a constant problem and dislocating 109 00:09:37.639 --> 00:09:43.679 force in large parts of Central Europe right through to the eighteenth century, particularly 110 00:09:43.720 --> 00:09:48.919 in the slave trade that emerges in that part of the world. They go 111 00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:54.039 in, the Tartars go in and force or militarization of the society in order 112 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:58.679 to defend them, defendigates these people. But going back to the Huns, 113 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:05.159 I mean Huns bring down the Roman Empire. That's a big statement. There 114 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:09.759 are one hundred and forty reasons given by historians for the collapse of the Roman 115 00:10:09.799 --> 00:10:13.840 Empire, and any of your listeners who are interested can go into Wikipedia and 116 00:10:15.039 --> 00:10:20.720 every one of them is listed with due reference points. But I think one 117 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:24.360 could say that, yes, there are all sorts of reasons why the Roman 118 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:31.240 Empire fail. It's dependence upon slavery. Maybe Christianity made people soft and remove 119 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:35.360 the martial edge of the Roman Empire. But I think if one looks at 120 00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:41.559 it in terms of sort of short term causes, the short term cause is 121 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:46.159 the eruption of the Huns. The Huns are a completely new force. Nobody 122 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:52.399 really knows much about them. They're related to what appears to be a group 123 00:10:52.440 --> 00:11:01.480 called the seal New who are active a couple of centuries before on the Chinese 124 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:05.720 border. Then they go quiet. Nobody knows what happens in the intervening period, 125 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:11.840 and suddenly in the fourth century they're on the Western stepe land and on 126 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:18.799 the western step they start pushing the two groups that are both called Goths. 127 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:24.799 They're the Turving and the Groytun Goths, and the Huns pushed them into the 128 00:11:24.919 --> 00:11:31.480 Roman Empire, and that starting in three seven eight a d. When a 129 00:11:31.639 --> 00:11:37.320 Roman army is defeated by in a sense, these refugees from the Huns. 130 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:41.480 From that point on, the Roman Empire is in decline, and the Roman 131 00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:48.600 Empire will be brought down effectively by the eruption of Barbarian tribes who, like 132 00:11:48.759 --> 00:11:54.159 some sort of domino effect, are pushed by the Goths and taken and take 133 00:11:54.279 --> 00:12:03.039 occupation of Italy. And it is a very sad event. There's some historians 134 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:11.960 who play down the impact of the Barbarian invasions on Rome and talk about the 135 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:16.840 strong continuities. Well, if you look cards enough, I'm sure you can 136 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:22.200 find the continuities. People weren't so sure that there were continuities around in the 137 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:28.039 fourth and fifth centuries, but the most signal thing is there is hot running 138 00:12:28.200 --> 00:12:35.679 water stops in four fifty eight. It stops in Central Europe and stops in 139 00:12:35.720 --> 00:12:39.480 the fifth century, and it will not be until about fourteen sixty that it 140 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:46.759 recommences. So you can't get a hot bath in Central Europe for a thousand 141 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:52.080 years. And that is the effect of the barbarian invasions, and an important 142 00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:56.799 effect, let's say that for sure. But you make a good point there 143 00:12:56.799 --> 00:13:00.000 that I just want to make sure that the listeners pick up. I'm because 144 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:03.240 one of the things that's so critical about Central Europe, and it's it's evident 145 00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:07.320 in the book very much a sort of a thread that runs throughout is that 146 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:13.600 Central Europe is very much the sort of crossroads area where different cultures are meeting. 147 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:18.960 And you talk about the Huns coming through and other step peoples and how 148 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:24.120 that forces the militarization of those people who are there to try to defend themselves 149 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:30.000 against them. And I think that that's an important theme throughout the book and 150 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:37.240 throughout history of civilizations being impacted by each other, almost like pieces of hot 151 00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:41.759 metal that are pounded together it changes both of them every time that they're struck 152 00:13:41.799 --> 00:13:46.600 in some sort of a way. And in this case, it's very true 153 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:50.440 to sort of talk about, yes, we have this domino effect that's going 154 00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:56.399 on, but as the Huns come in, there's no Hun empire that develops 155 00:13:56.840 --> 00:14:01.559 after the Roman Empire, it doesn't matter. It's already transforming the civilizations that 156 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:05.840 it is having these sort of interactions with in an on both a short term 157 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:11.120 and a long term basis. So, well, let's jump forward, because 158 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:13.759 we can't talk about Rome the whole time, but the um, well I 159 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:18.159 could, but let's not. So I'm always sort of struck by this moment 160 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:22.399 in history, and I was taught this years and years ago, that you 161 00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:26.960 know, the the disillusion and the breaking a part of Charlemagne's empire after his 162 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:31.000 death. Is a lot of times you'll still go to a history book and 163 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:33.519 it'll say the birth of modern Europe in this chapter, and then they'll show 164 00:14:33.559 --> 00:14:35.919 you the map. You know, this is how the empire was divided, 165 00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:37.919 and you can look at it and say, like, okay, I guess 166 00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:43.159 that kind of kind of starts to look like modern Europe a little bit based 167 00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:48.360 off of these again lines that we've drawn. But is this are we seeing 168 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:52.960 the birth of modern central Europe in the tenth century, I don't. I 169 00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:56.759 don't know, like is this is it fair in any way shape or for 170 00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:01.960 to sort of make this blanket statement just to go back a bit. I 171 00:15:01.960 --> 00:15:05.000 mean, you're quite right about the Huns. They don't leave an empire, 172 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:09.600 but some of the people they throw up, some of the other nomads are 173 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:18.480 there, and you've got one nomadic tribe will establish itself in Bulgaria. They 174 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:22.360 are called the Bulgars, and they will merge with the Slavs and become the 175 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:28.960 Bulgarians. In central Europe in the area of modern day Hungary, and go 176 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:33.120 over into eastern Austria. You have the Avar Empire, which is the Great 177 00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:39.000 Unknown Empire, and that exists from the sixth century right through to the beginning 178 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:43.559 of the ninth century. That is a long period of time for an empire 179 00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:52.519 to exist. And farther to the east, including Crimea, you have the 180 00:15:52.120 --> 00:16:00.440 Khazar Empire, which is remarkably an empire run by a Jewish elite. So 181 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:07.799 you're dealing with a shape of Europe that really is very unfamiliar, and I 182 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:14.799 think it's quite misleading to look at the breakup of the Charlemagne's Empire and say, 183 00:16:14.840 --> 00:16:18.240 ah, we can you know, we can begin to see something more 184 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:22.960 like modern Europe beginning, because farther over in the East you've got some very 185 00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:30.039 odd creations indeed that are existing there and ideal in the book with certainly the 186 00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:33.399 Avars, and say they are a group that needs to be better known. 187 00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:44.000 I mean they have some quite remarkable artifacts and gold, wonderful gold and enamel, 188 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:55.120 jewelry and dinner services effectively, and to reads you as there's a tremendous 189 00:16:55.159 --> 00:17:03.880 culture there. The really I think crucial development is not so much the breakup 190 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:10.440 of Charlemagne's empire, but the way it's reconstituted in the tenth century, and 191 00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:18.519 Charlemagne's empire disappears, the title of emperor goes the descendants of Charlemagne. They 192 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:26.279 will they will die out, and it is left to the so called Saxon 193 00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:33.319 rulers of what is now looking like much more like Germany East Frankia. It 194 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:37.839 is left to them to reconstitute the empire, and they become the new emperors. 195 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:45.079 They take over the title of Roman Emperor, and they create a new 196 00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:52.279 polity that will endure and that is much more recognizably something German and starts using 197 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:57.400 the German language. Yeah, and let's talk about Let's talk about that then, 198 00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:02.960 because I think that and you know, listeners will probably know it from 199 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:07.799 the book as the Holy Roman Emperor Empire. You know, that's sort of 200 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:11.480 the the big title that gets hoisted upon it. As you mentioned, they 201 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:17.119 would have thought of themselves as Roman emperors, but that does start to look 202 00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:23.480 like Germany. And the more I've read about again, I'll say Holy Roman 203 00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:27.880 Empire, just so that it's clear what I'm talking about for someone who's just 204 00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:33.519 started listening. But it seems to me that that polity, that kingdom has 205 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:38.960 had more of a profound impact on Europe than oftentimes it's given credit for. 206 00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:45.400 And so I was wondering if you could talk about the empire for a moment 207 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:51.519 and just how did it, how did it come to be, and why 208 00:18:51.640 --> 00:19:03.160 is it important for us to remember? I don't know in terms of, 209 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:07.759 you know, what should we think about it? I think the important thing 210 00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:15.920 is that it provides, shall we say, a space for sub states to 211 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:22.599 develop. What really happens with the Holy Roman Empire is that it is based 212 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:30.480 upon dynasties, and those dynasties have got land bases, and those land bases 213 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:37.759 gradually get eroded, and in order to maintain their power, the successive kings 214 00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:45.599 of Germany who become Emperors of Germany. These successive rulers grant more and more 215 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:52.960 rights to their vassals, and ultimately they give them effectively political independence. So 216 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:56.920 as a consequence, we get emerging within the space of the Holy Roman Empire 217 00:19:57.359 --> 00:20:03.599 a mass of new states. Some of them are actually Slavonic states in origin, 218 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:11.279 like Mecklenburg and Brandenburg, and they will become premier German states. Others 219 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:18.759 like Saxony and Bavaria, and ultimately Austria, will likewise maintain their own separate 220 00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:23.920 existence. In the case of Austria, it will take over the government of 221 00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:32.079 the Holy Roman Empire in the fifteenth century. And this means that each of 222 00:20:32.119 --> 00:20:37.839 these separate polities is involved partly in a competitive struggle, partly in a cooperative 223 00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:45.640 struggle in order to establish their power. And one of the ways they will 224 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:49.519 do that is by moving eastwards to the Virgin Lands. If you like, 225 00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:56.119 a Slavonic settlement lying to the east, and they will gradually take over that 226 00:20:56.240 --> 00:21:03.119 area I mean, we have to remember that at one point Slavonic settlement reached 227 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:08.240 to what is now whole Study just next to Denmark. All of that was 228 00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:17.599 Snamonic territory and is gradually rolled back and new German states are founded or old 229 00:21:17.799 --> 00:21:23.799 German states extend into these territories and build them up in a vast colonial enterprise. 230 00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:26.799 And this is, I think, is the achievement of the Holy Roman 231 00:21:26.839 --> 00:21:37.079 Empire to actually provide a space whereby these states can advance and move forward. 232 00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:42.559 But there's more to it than that. At times when when there is a 233 00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:48.480 common danger, the Holy Roman Empire and the Holy Roman emperors are able to 234 00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:59.400 use the weight of their office in order to coordinate the defense of the region 235 00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:06.119 and push against Turks, against Louis the fourteenth. So in a sense, 236 00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:10.920 the Holy Roman Empire does still have some sort of meaning even at the time, 237 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:15.759 right into the early modern period when he has thought about thought of invariably 238 00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:21.559 is in total disarray and decay. Yeah, it's I think that that those 239 00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:26.440 are really valid points. You know, I read once years ago, and 240 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:29.640 I can't remember the name of the author, talking about the importance of you 241 00:22:29.680 --> 00:22:33.759 know, the Holy Roman Empire as opposed to like say maybe the Kingdom of 242 00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:38.200 France or England, you have, you know, an itinerant court with more 243 00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:42.000 of an itinerant capital system. So the emperor is going to different diets in 244 00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:49.440 different locations, and so you know, different cities remain almost of equal importance 245 00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:56.000 in the empire, whereas in France, you know, Paris develops as the 246 00:22:56.119 --> 00:23:00.920 main central capital later on as we're going, and that that independence. And 247 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:03.039 I'll come back to that later when we talk about the Reformation, because I 248 00:23:03.079 --> 00:23:07.759 think that that really matters when we get to a topic like that. But 249 00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:15.480 thinking first about another one of those moments when maybe the Holy Roman Empire has 250 00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:22.200 to provide large scale stability, you'd have to think about a very surprising moment 251 00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:26.519 for Europeans, certainly, which would be the arrival of the Mongols from the 252 00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:30.559 East. And you know, I think that those of us who look more 253 00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:37.319 at Western European history, we don't think about them as much as maybe we 254 00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:41.839 should. But certainly the Mongols, I'm guessing had a profound impact on Central 255 00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:47.720 Europe. Correct. I think it has a profound effect to one parts of 256 00:23:47.799 --> 00:23:53.200 Central Europe. I mean, the Mongols are not particularly interested in going into 257 00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:57.160 Central Europe. They've go enough on their plate as it were, dealing with 258 00:23:57.160 --> 00:24:03.240 the Western step, and their main interest is to reduce the Russian principalities to 259 00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:11.200 as subservient status as providers of tribute and of conscripts. So that's that their 260 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:22.359 main target. What happens is that they send envoys to throughout Western Europe because 261 00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:30.599 they believe that the Khans are the world leaders, and they demand that everybody 262 00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:37.720 bows down to them, and many rulers just rite pleasant pleasant things back and 263 00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:41.400 leave it at that. But unfortunately Baylor the fourth, the king of Hungary, 264 00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:47.960 slays the Mongol envoys. Now this is a very very unwise move because 265 00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:52.759 the murder of envoys is never a good idea at any point. There's always 266 00:24:52.799 --> 00:25:00.240 been some notion of diplomatic status that has attached to envoys. And Batu Khan, 267 00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:06.920 who is the grandson of Jengis Car, if I remember correctly, Bartu 268 00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:11.160 Khan, who sent the Endvoice, just goes and launches a full scale attack 269 00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:15.240 on Hungary. His geography is not very good. He doesn't quite understand who's 270 00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:21.119 allied to whom, so he also ravages southern Poland. But he ravages southern 271 00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:26.960 Poland because he's involved in a pincer movement on Hungary with different armies crossing the 272 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:33.799 Carpathians in order to capture King Baylor the fourth, and Baylor the fourth knows 273 00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:40.440 thereafter him and ends up hiding on a Dalmatian island, and the Mongols occupy 274 00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:45.920 Hungary for a year. Unfortunately, in this case, the Holy Roman Empire 275 00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:49.720 is not involved in much coordination because Hungary is outside the Holy Roman Empire, 276 00:25:51.079 --> 00:25:56.279 and in fact, it does nothing when the ruler of Austria helps himself to 277 00:25:56.319 --> 00:26:07.200 a bit of Hungarian territory in the disarray. But following the Mongol invasion owned 278 00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:11.720 the retreat of the Mongols, they've run out of food because the Hungarian plane 279 00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:18.279 is not a very good supplier of grass. It doesn't have as much fodder 280 00:26:18.279 --> 00:26:23.559 as people imagine. They have to retreat after about a year, and it's 281 00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:29.400 left to Baylor the fourth to rebuild his kingdom. And what he does is 282 00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:37.079 he engages, in a process of about twenty years, what states and countries 283 00:26:37.079 --> 00:26:41.480 and regions and lands across Europe have been doing over a period of several centuries. 284 00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:48.200 He actually, for what a better word, modernizes or feudalizes the kingdom. 285 00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:56.079 He builds cities calls in Germans with big tax concessions to foul cities and 286 00:26:56.319 --> 00:27:02.279 gets them to build city walls, and the city walls around dumb Buda bauda 287 00:27:02.359 --> 00:27:06.119 pest. The city walls are something like five kilometers longer, and they're put 288 00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:12.400 up in about twenty to thirty years. This is extraordinary effort by Baylor the 289 00:27:12.440 --> 00:27:18.039 fourth and by the citizens he's called in to help him. More particularly as 290 00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:30.400 well he establishes he gets rid of the existing system of military recruitment and awards 291 00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:40.400 land to servicemen to essentially nights. He builds up a class of knights, 292 00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:45.359 giving them land with the idea that they can buy heavy armor, and so 293 00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:52.599 Hungry gets knighthood and chivalry and all of the things that go with our understanding 294 00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:57.599 of the Middle Ages. Before that time, Hungary was a pretty primitive place 295 00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:03.680 with a fairly base si system of administration. Baylor the fourth, as a 296 00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:11.559 consequence of the Mongol invasion, transforms Hungry and makes it into a state comparable 297 00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:21.480 to any of its neighbors and western counterparts. It becomes a recognizably Christian and 298 00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:27.440 Western looking state. The same as Procosis is going on in parts of Poland, 299 00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:33.519 in particular, where you've got tremendous competition amongst various claimants to the throne, 300 00:28:33.799 --> 00:28:37.799 and you get the same type of stress on knighthood, building up, 301 00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:45.640 feudal retinues, allocating resources to a new class of warrior, building cities. 302 00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:51.799 All of this process, which is in Hungary, is complete within twenty years. 303 00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:57.079 It takes longer in places like Poland and Bohemia, but it's underway there 304 00:28:57.119 --> 00:29:00.279 as well. So the Mongols, I think, kind of a tremendous effect 305 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:06.480 or hungry, but they show as a consequence of the way they act, 306 00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:12.079 just what type of transformation is happening in Central Europe round about the eleventh twelve 307 00:29:12.160 --> 00:29:21.839 thirteenth centuries. That's and again another great example of a civilization being impacted by 308 00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:26.759 an invasion and being forced to, as you say, modernize and develop the 309 00:29:26.839 --> 00:29:32.680 nation state even more. I want to talk about one group here, and 310 00:29:32.839 --> 00:29:38.799 that's that's the Teutonic Knights. The Teutonic Knights are probably one of those groups 311 00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:45.640 that when I talk about them, I find that people sort of colloquially have 312 00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:52.680 heard of them, they have some sense that they're some way tangentially related to 313 00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:56.720 the Crusades, and that they're German, and then sort of beyond that, 314 00:29:56.759 --> 00:30:03.960 they don't really know what they were, but they're really interesting and the fact 315 00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:08.880 that they come relatively close compared to other the other military orders to creating the 316 00:30:08.920 --> 00:30:14.279 sort of permanent state is interesting to me. So I was a big You 317 00:30:14.359 --> 00:30:18.480 could talk about them and the role that the Teutonic Knights play in the development 318 00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:22.519 of Central Europe for a little while because I find them interesting. I think 319 00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:27.880 that people would too. Yeah, I mean, the one has these crusader 320 00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:37.640 orders that exist in the eastern Mediterranean. Some like the Hospitalers, managed to 321 00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:44.440 create their own states at roads and it lasts until the sixteenth century. And 322 00:30:44.519 --> 00:30:49.119 of course then there's the Hospitalist state of Malta, which survives until Napoleon comes 323 00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:56.119 on the scene. The Teutonic Knights are the most successful in the sense that 324 00:30:56.160 --> 00:31:06.680 they've got the largest state complex built by crusading knights. The Tutonic Knights are 325 00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:15.440 monks. They don't have tonsias, they have helmets instead. They're a militarized 326 00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:21.680 monk force. They do all the prayers. They may have to do them 327 00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:26.920 on horseback as they ride into battle, but they do their divine offices they 328 00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:34.799 live in dormitories. They are celibate, and they are dedicated to the Virgin 329 00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:40.039 Mary, so they are very holy people. But they carry swords as well, 330 00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:45.640 and their aim is to fight the infidel. Originally it was to provide 331 00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:49.279 hospitals, and they provide hospitals right through until what The order still exists, 332 00:31:49.279 --> 00:31:59.119 and they still are providers of succer and aid, but their primary function becomes 333 00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:07.440 the war aids the unbeliever and the unbeliever. In the thirteenth century, the 334 00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:15.079 unbeliever is in Prussia, and the Prussians are not the last group to become 335 00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:22.319 converted to Christianity in Central Europe. The second or third group, we've got 336 00:32:22.359 --> 00:32:31.240 the Lithuanians that I'll come onto. The Prussians are attacking Poland, and the 337 00:32:31.480 --> 00:32:39.680 Polish Duke Conrad of Masovia calls in the Teutonic Knights for assistance. Now that 338 00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:46.160 Teutomic Knights have previously been looking for a role, and they had accepted an 339 00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:58.160 invitation to fight the Kuban nomads in Transylvania. And they build various fortresses, 340 00:32:59.079 --> 00:33:05.480 they move people, pull in and then the King of Hungary decides he doesn't 341 00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:08.400 want them in after all. He's going to use the Franciscans to convert the 342 00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:15.720 Cumans peacefully. And so they find themselves kicked out, and they're very aggrieved 343 00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:21.960 about this because they've they've spent a lot of money. So I went Conrad 344 00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:30.279 of Masovia appeals to them. They lay down conditions, and they laid down 345 00:33:30.279 --> 00:33:36.039 conditions that they will have the territories that they're given, and the territories of 346 00:33:36.119 --> 00:33:39.559 the conquer will be theirs, and they will be allowed to do what they 347 00:33:39.640 --> 00:33:45.200 like with them. And so they established themselves in I suppose one should call 348 00:33:45.240 --> 00:33:51.400 it the northeast corner of Europe, just south of the Baltic where they eliminate 349 00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:54.759 first of all, the Prussians. They have a hard job doing so. 350 00:33:54.920 --> 00:34:01.599 The Prussians are fairly primitive fighters, but they pick up techniques of warfare very 351 00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:09.920 rapidly, capture large numbers of knights, and engage in the very pleasant pastime 352 00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:20.239 of roasting Teutonic knights alive in their armor. So the Teutonic Knights established themselves 353 00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:23.920 in Prussia. They then move on to fight the next group, which are 354 00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:31.239 the last surviving pagan group in Europe, and that is the Lithuanians, who 355 00:34:31.239 --> 00:34:36.840 occupy a vast space reaching from the Baltic all the way down to the Black 356 00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:43.360 Sea. Lithuania is today very small. Indeed, its territory in the fourteenth 357 00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:50.960 century was extraordinary extensive, was the largest state in Europe. And the Teutonic 358 00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:57.920 Knights are involved with fighting the Prussians and then fighting the Lithuanians. There are 359 00:34:58.039 --> 00:35:07.119 about a thousand nights in all operating on the if you like. In the 360 00:35:07.159 --> 00:35:12.400 Baltic areas, there's not very many. And what they have to do is 361 00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:19.480 they feudalize their territories in much the same way as happened in Hungary and in 362 00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:30.000 Poland. They grant land to nights to come over and to assist in the 363 00:35:28.199 --> 00:35:38.079 in the in their wars, and they author essentially action packed tourist holidays where 364 00:35:38.599 --> 00:35:47.840 warriors from the West come over and spend a season or two campaigning alongside them, 365 00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:52.960 fighting Prussians and more particularly Lithuanians. And in the book I actually go 366 00:35:52.039 --> 00:35:59.880 into future Henry the fourth of England who goes over and fights on the side 367 00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:06.000 of the Teutonic Knights against the Lithuanians. He spends a vast amount of money 368 00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:15.360 because the Prussians, the Teutonic Knights are not just interested in the military muscle 369 00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:20.360 of the people coming in from the west. They're interested in how they can 370 00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:29.400 get them to to spend money. And they have lavish feasts, great entertainments 371 00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:34.840 with minstrels, no girls, because the Knights are celibate. They're not no 372 00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:43.480 girls. But there's plenty of drinking and boozing and exchanging gifts. And the 373 00:36:43.480 --> 00:36:49.639 Teutolic Knights continue in that manner until they are eventually defeated by the Poles. 374 00:36:49.639 --> 00:36:54.400 The Poles have had enough of them. The Teutonic Knights continue warring against the 375 00:36:54.480 --> 00:37:01.159 Lithuanians even after the Lithuanians have converted to Christiana, and they actually joined together 376 00:37:01.639 --> 00:37:09.800 with Poland in thirteen eighty five to found a joint joint state under a common 377 00:37:09.880 --> 00:37:20.320 ruler. And the polls turn on the Teutonic Knights and defeat them and force 378 00:37:20.440 --> 00:37:29.039 them into a making some type of peaceable settlement with them. But the real 379 00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:34.239 turning point, which leads on i think probably to your next question. The 380 00:37:34.280 --> 00:37:40.079 real turning point comes in fifteen twenty five when the Teutonic Knight, grand Master 381 00:37:40.679 --> 00:37:46.679 Albrecht of hohen Solomn, decides to become a Protestant, a Lutheran. And 382 00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:53.440 what he does is he gives up all of the monkish aspects of the Teutonic 383 00:37:53.519 --> 00:38:05.320 Knights activity he establishes himself as the ruler of Prussia, and he makes all 384 00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:12.519 the Knights into his landowners and landholding class. And this is the great secularization, 385 00:38:12.559 --> 00:38:17.000 as it's called, of the Teutonic order, where it loses its religious 386 00:38:17.199 --> 00:38:24.920 aspect and becomes if you like a feudal state. It's a good point because 387 00:38:25.079 --> 00:38:28.199 there's actually a couple of things there. I mean, first of all, 388 00:38:28.239 --> 00:38:31.400 I hope if you're listening to this, you know, if you didn't know 389 00:38:32.239 --> 00:38:38.639 how large Lithuania was in the fourteenth century, go look at a map, 390 00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:45.280 because it's it is an enormous state at this point in Europe. And the 391 00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:49.159 thing about the Teutonic Knights that, as I was researching them, struck me 392 00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:52.079 is that, yes, it's it's one of these groups that rulers were very 393 00:38:52.119 --> 00:38:58.079 happy to be accommodating to them while they needed them. But as we would 394 00:38:58.119 --> 00:39:01.440 see in Transylvania with the King of Hungary, and then later on they run 395 00:39:01.480 --> 00:39:06.239 a foul of the polls and so on and so forth. It's this group 396 00:39:06.280 --> 00:39:09.320 that they decide. Well, I don't know that this is as useful for 397 00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:14.559 us anymore in the sort of the shifting alliances that are taking place. But 398 00:39:14.599 --> 00:39:19.599 they don't as you say, they don't disappear. They more of a transition, 399 00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:23.320 and the transition than does have a lot to do with the next topic, 400 00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:28.480 which is the Reformation, because I don't think you can talk about Central 401 00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:37.440 Europe without talking about the bombshell that was the Reformation. And I just don't 402 00:39:37.960 --> 00:39:44.840 personally, I just don't know if the Reformation plays out the way that it 403 00:39:44.920 --> 00:39:52.840 does, if Martin Luther has to live in say, France as opposed to 404 00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:59.480 one of the German states as again, and that goes back to that freedom 405 00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:06.199 that was granted to the different participating dukes, kings and princess so on and 406 00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:12.159 so forth of the Holy Roman Empire. So how important is Central Europe to 407 00:40:12.199 --> 00:40:16.920 the story of the Reformation And is there any I don't know, is there 408 00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:24.280 any credence to my hypothesis that we owe Central Europe to a large extent to 409 00:40:24.400 --> 00:40:29.639 what happens for what happens. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a 410 00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:37.719 very valuable point. What would have happened if Luther had been in England or 411 00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:43.599 France or Italy, he would have been burnt and that would have been the 412 00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:47.800 end of it, because that's what happens to people like John Tindo, William 413 00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:58.119 Tindall, Tindo, the Savona Rola, all these various heretics, as they 414 00:40:58.119 --> 00:41:01.679 were called, captured and and both. In the case of Luther, he 415 00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:09.519 is protected. He is protected. He is a university professor, and Frederick 416 00:41:09.559 --> 00:41:15.039 the Wise of Saxon, he doesn't like people having a go at his professors, 417 00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:19.760 and he protects them. I don't think universities would do the same now. 418 00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:32.199 So he protects Luther, and Luther is able to produce vast amounts of 419 00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:39.320 writing eighty volumes I think in the present edition eighty volumes of writing, and 420 00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:45.599 he is assisted by the artist Kranach who makes him into a brand and produces 421 00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:57.679 these scurrilous woodcuts that do so much to spread Luther's message. So that is 422 00:41:57.719 --> 00:42:02.719 important that the role of the Holy Roman Empire in nurturing if you like the 423 00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:12.480 Reformation, the Reformation is Central Europe, and it depends upon the shape of 424 00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:19.800 Central Europe for its success. But I think the critical point is that the 425 00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:27.440 final peace treaty that's made in the fifteen fifties between the Protestant princes and the 426 00:42:27.480 --> 00:42:34.320 Holy Roman Emperor Charles the fifth and his brother and success of Fertiland. That 427 00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:40.280 presupposes that the princes can determine the religion of their subjects, and that is 428 00:42:40.280 --> 00:42:46.519 a tremendous boost to princely power. In fact, what is even more the 429 00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:54.000 case is how the Protestant princes in particular are keen on religious discipline and on 430 00:42:54.159 --> 00:43:00.440 social discipline as an aspect of that, and so the religious power they get 431 00:43:00.039 --> 00:43:05.840 soon becomes a power to a few like metal and pride into people's lives, 432 00:43:06.440 --> 00:43:13.480 into their morality, into their marriages, into the way they bring up children. 433 00:43:14.440 --> 00:43:19.280 And so there's a tremendous social disciplining, I think is the worth that 434 00:43:19.480 --> 00:43:24.000 historians use. There's a tremendous social disciplining that the prince's engineer on the back 435 00:43:24.039 --> 00:43:30.480 of the Reformation, which extends their political influence and their power all the more. 436 00:43:31.480 --> 00:43:37.159 It's giving Luther and then you know, I mean Switzerland, you know, 437 00:43:37.239 --> 00:43:40.360 which is you know where we get a couple of other key reformers, 438 00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:46.000 John Calvin and Arex Vingli as well, or sort of operating in this space, 439 00:43:46.199 --> 00:43:50.800 and it gives him the opportunity. And just to go back to the 440 00:43:50.840 --> 00:43:55.360 writing for a second, the amount of writing that Luther was able to produce 441 00:43:55.559 --> 00:44:01.239 is tremendous. It's almost hard to even put it into quantities. For people 442 00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:07.239 like he was. If you look at the best sellers list of this period 443 00:44:07.719 --> 00:44:10.000 of European history, it would be like looking at a list in the top 444 00:44:10.039 --> 00:44:15.280 five or all things written by Martin Luther. I mean his ability to do 445 00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:21.400 that is because you can't just go grab him and burn him. Okay, 446 00:44:21.679 --> 00:44:25.519 Janhos made the mistake of showing up at a court on one occasion, and 447 00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:30.719 that didn't end well for him, and Luther was very aware of what had 448 00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:35.440 happened to him. And what's another interesting thing that's happening at this exact same 449 00:44:35.480 --> 00:44:42.159 time is, of course, while the Reformation is going in parts of Germany 450 00:44:42.239 --> 00:44:49.800 and in Switzerland as well, you also have the burgeoning Ottoman state pushing in 451 00:44:50.360 --> 00:44:55.239 to eastern and up to towards Vienna. And so how does Charles the fifth 452 00:44:55.239 --> 00:44:59.239 and how does central Europe try to balance this? How does he try to 453 00:44:59.320 --> 00:45:06.400 address this ardam and threat while simultaneously having to deal with this ongoing Reformation. 454 00:45:07.400 --> 00:45:10.840 Yeah, I mean it's very difficult. And in Charles the Fifth is very 455 00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:16.199 negligent. In the fifteen twenties, he spends his time in Spain. He's 456 00:45:16.239 --> 00:45:25.079 just got married, his wife is dazzlingly beautiful, and he languishes there really 457 00:45:25.119 --> 00:45:30.559 and leaves it to his brother Fursdan to sort out the Holy Roman Empire. 458 00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:37.719 And Furson can't do it, And Charles the Fifth turns up at Augsburg in 459 00:45:37.840 --> 00:45:42.760 fifteen thirty and there's a meeting of the Diet, the parliament of the Holy 460 00:45:42.840 --> 00:45:47.280 Roman Empire, and he calls together the Catholic princes and says, right, 461 00:45:47.960 --> 00:45:52.480 you know, there's been too much messing around. We're going to go for 462 00:45:52.559 --> 00:45:55.639 it. I'm going to make war on the Protestants. And they go and 463 00:45:55.679 --> 00:46:00.639 say to him, you can't do that. Firstly, you haven't got enough 464 00:46:00.719 --> 00:46:07.440 money for troops. Secondly, the troops that you recruit who Protestants anyway, 465 00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:09.800 they're not going to fight very hard for you. Thirdly, we've just had 466 00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:15.960 a peasants war in Germany. The peasants will rise up, and on top 467 00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:22.960 of that, the Ottomans will take advantage of any civil conflict and press further 468 00:46:22.159 --> 00:46:29.079 into Central Europe and Charles has to back down. The Ottomans are there as 469 00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:35.000 a restraint on the imperial policy and they will always remain so, I mean 470 00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:42.079 the buy fifteen fifty roughly most of the parliaments across the Holy Roman Empire. 471 00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:45.679 Remember there's a there's a central parliament of the Holy Roman Empire, the Reichstag, 472 00:46:46.159 --> 00:46:52.360 and there are parliaments in all of these provinces as well, and they 473 00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:57.199 control the purse strings because they're the people who know who the taxpayers are, 474 00:46:57.760 --> 00:47:00.800 and they're the people who've got the tax electors out. So if you're going 475 00:47:00.840 --> 00:47:06.719 to get any money, you have to go through the princes and the parliaments. 476 00:47:07.239 --> 00:47:12.480 And the parliaments will just say to any prince who says, you know, 477 00:47:13.199 --> 00:47:15.280 we're going to crack down on Probiesenism, they will simply say to him, 478 00:47:15.280 --> 00:47:20.239 in that case, we're not collecting any taxes. And normally they will 479 00:47:20.360 --> 00:47:27.440 in places like Austria's Steria, they will couple tax two concessions on the religious 480 00:47:27.480 --> 00:47:31.920 front. And the main reason why princes need taxes is from military purposes in 481 00:47:32.039 --> 00:47:37.000 order to engage in defense, particularly against the Turks, also the French, 482 00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:42.239 but particularly against the Turks. So in other words, there's a direct linkage 483 00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:46.800 between the Ottoman Empire and its advanced into Central of Remember in fifteen twenty nine, 484 00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:54.760 they're at Vienna, and they will they will continue being a threat on 485 00:47:54.920 --> 00:48:05.960 the doorstep of Central Europe for an several centuries more, and they will they 486 00:48:06.679 --> 00:48:14.360 force a new degree of militarization in Central Europe. But militarization has to be 487 00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:19.920 paid for, and the Protestants control the purse strings. Yeah, it's interesting. 488 00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:23.800 I think that there's there's to an extent of valid argument to be made 489 00:48:23.840 --> 00:48:27.960 that, you know, who do we have to thank for the for the 490 00:48:28.039 --> 00:48:31.519 Reformation being allowed to survive those early years. One could advance an argument that, 491 00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:37.760 well, you should thank the Ottoman Sultan for the Reformation existing, because 492 00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:44.920 their very existence at that same time makes it very difficult. Sometimes, you 493 00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:46.599 know, you look at a map and this is again where maps are misleading, 494 00:48:46.599 --> 00:48:52.719 and you look at all the territories that are under technically two different extents 495 00:48:52.559 --> 00:48:57.320 Charles the fifths, you know, sovereignty, and you say, well, 496 00:48:57.320 --> 00:49:00.360 he controls all these vast areas, he's obviously so much more powerful than everybody 497 00:49:00.360 --> 00:49:05.719 else. But many of those areas come with problems, and those areas have 498 00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:09.079 to be defended, and those areas are by no means unified. There's very 499 00:49:09.119 --> 00:49:15.719 little interest for people in Spain to pay for wars in Germany and vice versa, 500 00:49:15.159 --> 00:49:21.079 you know, And certainly he's got you know, Mexica and Inca later 501 00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:24.800 on gold pouring in from the New World. But it's it's spent almost before 502 00:49:24.840 --> 00:49:28.719 it comes in. I mean, in to some extent it is, I 503 00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:32.079 suppose spent before it comes in, because he's borrowed it already. And I 504 00:49:32.079 --> 00:49:36.760 imagine him as this juggler who every time he wants to take on another ball, 505 00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:38.159 someone reminds him that, well, if you do that, it's actually 506 00:49:38.239 --> 00:49:42.760 two more, just so you know, because there's these other problems. And 507 00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:47.559 of course he eventually just retires and its way down by it so much so 508 00:49:49.039 --> 00:49:52.880 it's again and one of those ways where you look you would look at it 509 00:49:52.920 --> 00:49:54.280 and say, this man is so powerful, look at what he has, 510 00:49:54.320 --> 00:49:59.880 But you know, it's it's not that simple. It's it's much more complicated 511 00:50:00.639 --> 00:50:04.079 than all of that. And so I think the Ottomans are an interesting question 512 00:50:04.159 --> 00:50:06.920 in there. Well, I don't want I don't want to run out of 513 00:50:06.920 --> 00:50:09.639 time. Here I want to talk about the Thirty Years War for a moment, 514 00:50:09.840 --> 00:50:14.599 because the Thirty Years War, at least I was taught, was one 515 00:50:14.599 --> 00:50:19.440 of those watershed history moments in Central Europe that sort of dominates how things go 516 00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:22.280 from then on. So I was I was hoping you could speak for at 517 00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:27.880 least a few minutes about the Thirty Years War. You know, where, 518 00:50:28.079 --> 00:50:30.000 how does it happen in nature, and what are some of its sort of 519 00:50:30.039 --> 00:50:37.400 immediate consequences for the history of Central Europe. In particular, it starts because 520 00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:42.800 there is an even more determined emperors and chance of face, and that is 521 00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:49.960 Emperor further than the second and first of the second is I suppose we would 522 00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:57.360 call him a fanatic. He has made a personal vow to the Virgin that 523 00:50:57.559 --> 00:51:01.760 he will rid his territories of protesting autism, and nothing is going to stop 524 00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:07.800 him. The one point, early on in the Thirty Years War, he 525 00:51:07.960 --> 00:51:15.679 really has only Vienna left, and he's got only a minor garrison, and 526 00:51:15.760 --> 00:51:22.679 he is reliant upon the students, under the officering of their professors, in 527 00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:28.280 order to defend him. And what he does is he prays in the chapel 528 00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:31.079 in what is now the Hoffberg, the Hofburg Palace, you can see it 529 00:51:31.159 --> 00:51:37.239 there. And the Virgin tells him it's going to be all right, and 530 00:51:37.400 --> 00:51:44.400 it is because the army that's coming to Vienna diverts in another direction. So 531 00:51:44.480 --> 00:51:49.760 he's saved, and he's saved by the intercession of the Virgin, which only 532 00:51:49.840 --> 00:51:55.800 sort of encourages him to take more and more gambles, and he will spend 533 00:51:57.840 --> 00:52:12.320 the next the sixteen twenties making outrageous gambles with dispossessing rulers, demanding that Protestant 534 00:52:12.360 --> 00:52:16.320 princes return all the church land that they've seized, which is huge quantities of 535 00:52:16.519 --> 00:52:23.239 territory, trying to rebuild the Catholic Church. But ultimately he's caught out because 536 00:52:24.079 --> 00:52:30.239 just as Charles the Fifth learnt at Halsburg, other people are waiting there to 537 00:52:30.280 --> 00:52:36.280 take advantage of his difficulties. The Swedes intervene, and more particularly the French 538 00:52:36.320 --> 00:52:43.000 intervene on the Protestant side effectively, and so the Thirty Years War, which 539 00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:47.960 starts off very much as a religious war, becomes a dynastic war fought between 540 00:52:49.360 --> 00:53:01.320 the House of Habsburg and the House of Bourbo and France, and so it 541 00:53:01.440 --> 00:53:08.159 continues long after the main causes having a sense been resolved, and the deal 542 00:53:08.199 --> 00:53:15.920 that's put at the end is that the princes can continue to determine the religion, 543 00:53:15.639 --> 00:53:22.679 except whereas originally the religions that they could choose were limited to Catholicism or 544 00:53:22.760 --> 00:53:31.559 Lutheranism, now Calvinism is allowed in that if the religious freedom is largely allowed 545 00:53:31.719 --> 00:53:38.639 to subjects within a number of constraints, and the courts will from this point 546 00:53:38.679 --> 00:53:46.320 onwards judge matters of religious dispute. They won't be left to the ruler and 547 00:53:46.760 --> 00:53:52.880 the courts they're batlogged. And but it's shoving the problem of religion into the 548 00:53:53.000 --> 00:53:58.280 courts and taking it off the battlefield, that's the important thing. And there's 549 00:53:58.280 --> 00:54:06.199 an exemption for the hapsburg Ler, which means Austria, Bohemia and not Hungry. 550 00:54:06.239 --> 00:54:10.480 At this point, Austria and Bohemia are exempt from this. They have 551 00:54:10.679 --> 00:54:15.679 to stay Catholic. So what happens is that you get a build up of, 552 00:54:15.519 --> 00:54:21.480 if you like, a Catholic redoubt that begins to emerge in Austria and 553 00:54:21.679 --> 00:54:27.719 Bohemia. With Bavaria, which has long been well since the fifty six fifteen 554 00:54:27.719 --> 00:54:34.719 seventies is pretty solidly Catholic, so you get a build up of Catholic bloc 555 00:54:35.440 --> 00:54:40.280 in the south and east of the Holy Roman Empire, and Catholicism is saved. 556 00:54:40.480 --> 00:54:45.719 And that's the important point, because by sixteen hundred, fifty years before 557 00:54:45.800 --> 00:54:52.800 the Peace of Westphalia, Catholicism looked as if it was being outmaneuvered, as 558 00:54:52.840 --> 00:54:59.079 if it was going to be marginalized entirely. The Thirty Years War allows the 559 00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:06.400 Catholics to come back, as it were, and importantly too, it marks 560 00:55:06.519 --> 00:55:15.679 really the removal of the Hapsburgs from the Holy Roman Empire. The Peace of 561 00:55:15.719 --> 00:55:22.599 Westphalia is signed by the princes separately under their own names. It recognizes, 562 00:55:22.719 --> 00:55:29.599 if you like, that some sort of sovereignty attaches to them, and the 563 00:55:30.920 --> 00:55:37.000 role of the Habsburgs is diminished. Hats most will continue to play a role 564 00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:39.880 in the Holy Roman Empire, but from now all it will be a diminished 565 00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:45.400 one, and they will increasingly look to building up their own power in their 566 00:55:45.480 --> 00:55:51.480 own corner of Central Europe. Yeah. I mean, if there's a couple 567 00:55:51.519 --> 00:55:53.840 of important takeaways from the Thirty Years War, certainly one of them should be 568 00:55:54.280 --> 00:55:58.119 Ladies and gentlemen, if somebody tells you it's all going to be Okay, 569 00:55:58.159 --> 00:56:00.840 I just talked to the Virgin Mary and you said it was going to be 570 00:56:00.920 --> 00:56:06.400 fine. You should be a little suspicious because that hasn't always particularly worked out 571 00:56:06.960 --> 00:56:10.679 in the long run for those who have attempted it. Well, we are 572 00:56:10.840 --> 00:56:16.159 running out of time, and we got to the mid seventeenth century, so 573 00:56:17.639 --> 00:56:22.360 listeners at home should know that this book is very detailed and excellent and so 574 00:56:22.480 --> 00:56:27.599 dense. I wrote through Napoleon and we didn't get to Napoleon, so it's 575 00:56:28.280 --> 00:56:32.599 well worth picking up. And I couldn't recommend it enough. There's just aren't 576 00:56:32.840 --> 00:56:39.599 very many good complete histories of Central Europe out there, and this is coming 577 00:56:39.639 --> 00:56:44.400 from a guy who knows, because I have to read a lot of history. 578 00:56:44.840 --> 00:56:49.639 So if you're looking for a book that really does stitch together the major 579 00:56:49.800 --> 00:56:53.119 themes of Central European history and how it impacts everything else, this one is 580 00:56:53.199 --> 00:56:58.840 excellent, and thank you for writing it. I very much enjoyed reading it, 581 00:56:59.239 --> 00:57:04.400 and I'm hopeful that you know, maybe there'll be some other works in 582 00:57:04.480 --> 00:57:08.280 the future that I can pick up. But thank you for coming on as 583 00:57:08.320 --> 00:57:12.880 well. It was really fantastic my pleasure. Thank you very much for listening 584 00:57:12.920 --> 00:57:13.079 to me.