Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster movies and psychoanalyze them.
My name is Bernie Brownfield and I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by
Ben Stover, individual therapist, Hannah Espinoza, marriage and family therapists. We're
all licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists who practice out of Chicago.
Even though we are licensed mental health professionals, this podcast is purely for entertainment
purposes and to fulfill our love of dissecting pop culture in all forms. Please
remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists, we aren't your therapist.
If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find a local mental
health provider. Hi, everybody, Today we are going to be talking about
Wes Anderson's Fantastic Mister Fox. This is one of my favorite movies. So
I've already had two so far this season, this Terminator that I'm so excited
to talk about. And so this episode we will be focusing on narcissistic personality
disorder and the family dynamics that we see within this movie affecting the whole Fox
family. So that's mister Fox, Missus Fox Ash and the cousin Christofferson,
so hid the main plot of the movie. It's a kid's movie, So
it's pretty simple, is that our mister Fox, our fantastic mister Fox,
is he's sort of, like to put it simply, a criminal who tries
to go straight when he realizes his wife's pregnant. And then after twelve fox
years two human years, he gets that itch, that itch to get back
into the criminal lifestyle of stealing chickens and all that kind of stuff from local
farmers. Basically shenanigans occur in which he endangers the livelihood of not just his
family, but the entire animal kingdom in the area, uh, because of
his relentless pursuit of getting up into it. So as we jump into that
first, we want to do, like always is define the terms we're using.
So narcissistic personality disorder. I think like a lot of personality disorders is
being thrown around a lot lately. I hear a lot in the ether nowadays
of people saying that person's a narcissist. Fast persons a narcissist. It's kind
of become the new borderline. Yeah, I've not met a single person who
has divorced or broken up with a man who has not been with a narcissist.
Just just gonna put it out there. Yeah, it is being irresponsibly
used. Not saying they're not out there, but you know, it is
like being irresponsibly used. Not every person you've ever dated has narcissistic personality disorder,
I promise you. Yeah. And also we want to be clear and
why we want to define NPD narcissistic personality disorder is that there's a difference between
being narcissistic, having narcissistic traits, maybe being egocentric or egotistical, and having
NPB. Like we said before, whenever we're diagnosing someone, what makes them
diagnosable is that the traits that they are exhibiting are getting in the way of
their life in some way, either their social functioning, their work functioning,
their ability to take care of themselves. And I think what we see here
right away with mister Fox is that his symptoms are getting in the way of
all his functioning, his marriage, his livelihood, his literal life, his
house, his tree, if you will, his community, everything. So
that is a difference between someone who is a little up their own but someone
who who is maybe a little selfish, versus someone who has a diagnosable set
of symptoms. So I'm just gonna read off really quickly and then we'll jump
into where we see it in this movie. So, for someone to be
diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, they have to have at least five of the
following nine criteria. A grandiose sense of self importance, a preoccupation with fantasies
of unlimited success, power, beauty, love, YadA, YadA. A
belief that he or she is special and unique and can only be understood by
or should associate with, special or high status people or institutions. A need
for excessive admiration, a sense of entitlement, interpersonally exploitive behavior, a lack
of empathy, envy of others or belief that others are envious of him or
her, and a demonstration of arrogant and haughty behaviors or attitudes. So,
so we're talking about a Fox or somebody else just checking. I mean,
it just sounds like someone we've been watching for the past couple of years.
Are you talking about someone who was also of the orange variety like mister Hawks?
Just ironically enough, also like somebody who's somebody in our comments section on
our one of our pages, seem to think we were a fan of which
is incorrect. That is true. Just for the record, you guys are
ever reading through our reviews on Apple podcasts, someone because of just a badly
placed ad left a comment that weird Trump supporters, We're not. If you
listen to more than one episode of US, you know whether we're not.
Yeah, So I would say we see almost all of these criteria. Was
all these symptoms with our lead character here, mister Fox. Yes, yes,
I mean I think the first sense that comes to mind for me,
and this is where he sort of almost cite almost self diagnosis in the movie,
is a need for excessive admiration. Hmm. Absolutely, yep. He
definitely wants to be the most important person. And I think the most glaringly
obvious moment where we saw that was when he interrupted Badger's speech despite Badger like
hosting the entire town and trying to keep them safe, and then he just
like completely ignores that that's happening. It like cuts him off and goes,
yes, it's my toast. Now. That was a big turning point for
me. M Yeah, I would say, the just the amount of speeches
he gives in the movie period during the worst case scenarios. You know what
I don't want to do when I'm running for my life, pause and listen
to some jackass give a speech about how awesome he is more than once.
Yeah, and he kind of mentions that, Brittany, would you ask,
would you huh, given our episode we just did, if it were a
super handsome, scummied up ranger from the Earth, would you listen to the
speech? Hannah would look at that face. I'm assuming we're referring to Lord
of the Rings. Yes, Um, did I have to do? I
have to pay attention to the content of the speech or kind of just stare
at them and kind of zone out. Maybe it require them a little bit.
I mean, because I would say depends his speeches are not as self
involved as every single thing that mister Fox has to say accurate. I mean,
Aragorn is not narcissistic at all. Um, No, not even slightly.
I'm not alluding that just for a point of clarification, given that we
talked about speeches so much in ours we did we did too, You're right,
I think it would be more like now I'm trying to pull all the
rings reference out of my ass. I think it'd be more like mid battle
if Arne was like, hold well, the time out, um, So
you know, I'm just thinking about how cool it is that I'm king now,
and like how good of a job are already doing at this fight?
We're right and right now, and isn't that great? Let's raise a toast
to that? And you'd be like, what the fuck are you talking about,
dude, I've got a knife at my neck. So I think that
is the energy I feel like, because I think it's kind of that combination
of difficulty with empathy, how all these symptoms kind of converge on each other.
Is an inability to read the room. You know. That's what it
looks like when you have kind of the grandiosity, the need for excessive admiration
on top of in the entitlement, on top of like empathy. When that
stuff swirls together, that is someone who cannot read a room, even though
they are they have the capacity to be charming, to maybe even be kind
of like love bombing and that kind of stuff, to be you know,
very complimentary and come off really well their kids to a point when it's obvious
they can't read a room in these kind of situations because these symptoms they get
in the way that are very self involved will overcompensate for the social intelligence that
they're lacking, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, They'll
retreat into what they're good at, and the conversation will stay restricted to those
topics, regardless of what's going on or what they can project an image of
being good at that they are unable to see is not necessarily real or appropriate
or both. Like, I even think, going back to that example you
gave about interrupting badger speech, also that his total inability to recognize how that
would make Badger feel, right, someone who I think he would identify as
a friend in a colleague, and how that would look to everybody else in
the room, that he straight up cut him off and stole his speech.
Yeah, yeah, that was bad. I think honestly. The one that
was the other moment that he showed that absolutely lack of awareness or recognizing.
The moment was when Christofferson and Ash were diving and Ash tried so hard to
get his attention just doing normal kid things. Did Dad, look at me,
look at me, I'm gonna jump, Look at me, I'm gonna
jump. I'm gonna jump. And kids just do that. They just want
you to like pay attention to them and approve of something that they do for
five seconds and they'll move on. And he barely gave him an ounce of
his attention, and then Christofferson came up and did the super awesome Olympic style
dive with no splash, and all of a sudden, Christofferson is the coolest
person ever. Because mister Fox needs to be associated with the best people.
Yeah, Which is that other symptom, right, is this need to be
associated with other people that you view as the same status as you or higher
than you because you should be higher with them, Well, they should be
higher with you. Yeah, Well, meeting people that are on the same
plane that you feel like you are on or should be on. Right.
But remembering when we talk about narcissistic personality to sort of, I think the
part where people get lost with it and make mistakes is that what makes it
a personality disorder is it doesn't have to be true. They don't have to
be the actual best person at what they're doing. They just think they are
and have an inability to see or be proven otherwise that they are not m
Yeah, certain people actually don't have the best words. They don't know all
the words. When they say I have the best words, you are not
actually amongst the company of people who perhaps write dictionaries yeah, or thesaurus is
for a living, or write academic papers. Yeah. I mean, I
think it's that's where the kind of break, not break from reality, but
just to sort of disconnect from what is true, like you were saying that
is pathological, right, or that not really seeing what's actually happening, what's
in front of you. And also I think kind of piggybacking off that distinction
you're making is that I think when we think of people who are narcissistic and
when we call people that like societally, I think it's it comes from this
idea. At least this is how I receive it when people say that,
is this this idea that they are so into themselves they have they're so egotistical
in the sense that they think they're the shit and they're so uber confident.
And I think what's so interesting when you actually work with someone someone who is
mpdor, someone who actually has it, is that kind of tug of war
of that kind of delusion of like I am high status, I'm the best,
but also needing constant reassurance that you are the best. So it's it's
like you're so run by your ego, but your egos also so fragile.
So it's not this idea that I think people hold that you're like unshakably egotistical,
that you think your shit don't stink and no one can tell you otherwise.
There is a bit of that. But I think where I really I
can find empathy for people struggling with MPD is that it's such a difficult place
to be in internally, where your self worth is so important and it's also
so highly impacted by other people who are outside of your control, whether you
want to admit that or not. Right well, where it separates from anxiety,
right where that is a conscious awareness a thing where people who who are
anxious and eager to prove themselves as the best, like people who are high
achievers, is people who are narcissistic don't do the effort usually to prove it.
M the difference between some mister Fox and Christofferson. Christofferson is quite good
at the things that he's doing he actually does no karate, yes, and
he's actually good at whackbat and all this stuff. He's a natural and he
actually has skills about it. But he doesn't go around talking about it or
making that the point of conversation. He just does the things he does and
then tries to relate to people on whatever level is happening around him, and
even tries to build other people up. Mister Fox makes no effort to build
anybody up ever. M definitely not. Yeah, And that's where I think
narcissism becomes such a challenge. As people who are anxious about their status,
are anxious about their approval, will understand why they are anxious. They will
be trying to be better. And people who are narcissistic will expect you or
someone else to see them and validate them where they are at. And it
is such a difficult thing to have in your life, whether it's you living
with it or others in your life living with it, because they don't see
it at all. They just expect to be treated like they're the best,
and they cast out others who don't validate that. Usually quite incorrect, but
not always viewpoint. Some Sometimes they are really quite good at things, but
they expect to be treated like royalty always m Yeah, and it's a very
helpless I view it clinically as like a very helpless position to be in,
you know. I don't know if anyone with MPD you would necessarily think of
it that way, but it's it's always a helpless position to be in when
you're dependent upon external validation. Yeah, because you can't control that. You
can, you can pretend like you can, you can have the content distortion
that you can, but you can't actually do it um and so then you
end up doing things like we see him. One of the very first scenes
is he's readings are icle in the paper. He's a published writer, like
well, a newspaper writer, and what is he first? One of the
first things he says, but are you who's talking about it? What are
they saying about it? Are your friends reading it? Why aren't they reading
it? They should be reading it. You know. It's these constant bids
for validation and reassurance about yourself. It's never enough to just have done something.
There has to be that follow up, you know, which is the
conversation that i've right after that, where he says, I don't want to
live in a hole anymore. I feel poor, And she says, but
we're happy, and he's kind of like, does not compute, Yeah,
Like, how could we be happy? How could we be happy? That's
impossible if we're being almost like, how can we be happy if we're being
viewed as poor? Because that when he says I feel poor, My assumption
would be if I dig deeper with him, is that he would it.
Eventually, he would identify that he is can be viewed as poor in the
situation he's in, right, And it's so fascinating watching the conversation he has
with Badger, where Badger's telling him, like, dude, don't go live
in the tree. That's how you get killed. Basically all right, He's
essentially telling him, if you go live in the super visible tree, you
are entering the kill zone. I can't remember what exact phrase he used,
but he basically told the most dangerous neighborhood. I think he says it's like
the worst neighborhood for his worst neighborhood, somebody like you could live in or
something like that. Right, it's not ambiguous. Yeah, he's like this
is They get into it almost a physical altercation about the fact that he's going
to make this decision, yes, right, And of course he's disregarding the
advice of his hired legal counsel, who he I assume went to, so
I think this is the trap, right, he goes to Badger to get
I am I would assume advice expertise in regards the situation. He doesn't hear
what he wants to hear. He doesn't hear what vow dates that, so
he disregards it. He spits it out and puts it away, and he
says it very clearly. He says, well, I hear what you're saying,
and I'm gonna I'm gonna buy the tree, right, And look at
what he, you know, is buying. He's buying a big tree on
a hill by itself that's extremely visible and desirable and one hundred thousand percent inappropriate
for a nuisance predator to live in, because part of you know, Fox's
ideology is that they live in holes and retreat because they are quite confident diggers,
which they make a point of highlighting throughout the entire film, not the
edeology, but there their biology, right is there in ecology is to be
a sneak thief, and ane should probably not be one that goes, hey,
look where I live, because I'm going to come here and I'm going
to take all your ship and I'm going to bring it back to this lone
tree on the hill towering over everything else. Oh wait, hold on,
I just described American society. Never mind. I mean, I think this
goes to what I feel is one of his most prominent characteristics, which I
think would be for me as a consion, a driving factor in diagnosing him
with MPD, is a demonstration of arrogant and haughty behaviors or attitudes. The
whole movie, he is doing stuff that to us makes no sense in the
grand scheme of things. But it's that's the part of it. Is,
like that arrogance and the excitement of engaging in something that fills up that cup
that gets his motor running right, and there's not really any thought about how
stupid it is. Well, I guess how dangerous it is, how danger
it is, especially because his family will be living there. It's not like
he's going to be living there by himself. His whole family will be there.
Because all I think all he's seeing is the temptation of being in that
close to in proximity to those three farms. It's like he's being called back
to the casino or something, or being called back to the gang he used
to run with and do like petty crimes with. You know, it's it's
it's almost like he wants to go back into his old life, and the
temptation of that is to is too hard to manage in combination with like the
arrogance and haughty behaviors, like the inclination to engage in those like he doesn't
have that thing that we have which stops you. And it's like, I
know that feels like ding and I know that feels nostalgic, perhaps even,
and it's adrenaline pumping, and it's no longer a priority, like we're valuing
something else now, which I think is what we see in the opening of
the movie when they get trapped in that cage and his wife does tell him,
I'm pregnant. You know that is what she's really saying in that moment,
in very like two sentences, is I need you to value something more
now than this buffoonery. And he's able to do it for a while,
for a while, yes, until the temptation creeps in and he doesn't have
the what we're looking for. He doesn't have the resilience or the coping mechanisms
to fight off that temptation. No well, and it is it's quite common
for young men to need to grow the hell up when they become dads.
Right. It's quite a normal experience to have higher tolerance for risk and less
concern for your well being or anything else until you have a child. And
men do go through quite a bit of maturing real quick, many of them,
not all of them, unfortunately, but when they are set to become
dads, and expectations on themselves and societally change for many Unfortunately, we all
know way too many stories where that's not true, So I'm not going to
say that's a broad stroke, but it does happen for those usually are emotionally
healthy and capable that something starts to change when that happens. What we don't
see with mister Fox is that look real for him and he's able to change.
But you can see right away he hates everything about his status change from
being free and able to do things in a way where he can keep his
own counsel and do it his own way, and missus Fox is like,
you need to wake the fuck up. We're fine, we're happy here,
we're happy, everything's working, and it wasn't for him. M Yeah,
because I think what he's lacking is that intentional shift. You know. He
feels more like someone who's doing a combination of like maybe white knuckling and denial
of his needs and or trying to get the same cup filled in a different
way instead of trying a different cup entirely and coming to terms with that right,
which is where you know, parenthood and fatherhood changes. You know,
I can't speak to what motherhood feels like. I've you know, watched it
closely but been a mother and never will be. But being a dad,
like you feel something change in you and Nope, this little creature that I
made is now more important than me. Period. That's what usually happens,
and I don't think that ever happened from mister Fox. People have to learn
that I am not the most important thing in the universe anymore. And I
think you're right, he's white knuckling that and resenting that and then not getting
his needs. Matt finding alternative ways to get attention, like none of them
are none of them are hitting people aren't reading his column. He's a newspaper
man now, but he always wanted to be a sneak thief. Again,
well, he wants to be you know, the legend, right I And
my assumption is is that he was probably pretty legendary when he was young as
a chicken thief and a little rascal, if you will, and to have
your picture and your byline in the paper, which is pretty cool actually,
and a lot of people get that even in terms of status and attention,
that's still not enough. And I think what actually is difficult for real life
people who struggle with MPD is that it is a cup with holes in the
bottom. You know, it's there. Very rarely is ever going to be
enough because you're looking for something that you have to give yourself, you know,
going back to that external validation part of it is that that's never going
to be enough, and so you're always going to be climbing waiting for I
don't know, maybe if I become president of the United States, I'll finally
feel good, like I'll finally feel enough, like we're done now, and
I can sit on that status for the rest of my life and be full.
And the problem is is that your stomach has holes in it, and
that's what you have to be paying attention to. That's the problem, right,
not what's coming into the stomach, what's coming into the cup. M.
Yeah, And I guess some other state traits that we see that make
make him feel like someone who might get diagnosed with MPD if they stumbled into
our office. I would say, in some ways, his lack of engagement
in his relationships. M say more about that, whether it's whether it's relationship
with his wife or his relationship with his child. I think we see him
apologize to Ash, but we don't really see him engage in a different way.
And I think that's because when and I think a part of that has
to do with someone who has MPD really struggles with looking outside of themselves.
They don't have that awareness. And so I don't think he can take into
account his relationship with his wife or even with his child, because he's so
busy trying to keep his status up, or he's so busy trying to focus
on what he thinks is really important. I think it's really hard for him
to engage in those relationships. And so I think he's disengaged from his wife
and from his family in general. Yeah, I think his relationship with the
possum is Kylie. Kylie much more present in his life, yeah, than
his relationship with his child or his spouse. I think you're right, Hannah.
I feel like we're about to get into a bigger discussion on the family
dynamics. We're going to take a break here and be right back, yeah,
to kind of jump back into it. I think why he feels so
connected to Kylie is that Kylie is his sidekick. You know, Kylie is
an arm that can do things on his behalf. Like they're never doing any
thing together. That's for Kylie primarily all. He's really agreeable, very almost
like submissive to Fox. Yeah, you know, utterly submissive, utterly submissive.
And yeah, he's a Charles Boyle to his Jake Peralta. If you
wanted to get into Brooklyn nine nine, he's a Lafu too, He's Yeah,
maybe this is a trend, right for every not that Jake Paul does
not narcissist, but for everyone like that, there can be this little like
sidekick, right because Kylie isn't demanding anything of Fox that he can't give him,
you know. Yeah, And I think that's what's hard about I think
what's really interesting about his dynamic with his wife, missus Fox is she does
seem like shut down a little bit. Oh like, yeah, a lot
of it. Yeah she does. She seems sad truly. Yeah, m
she does seem sad. Yeah, she's definitely withdrawn and said and shut down
from pretty much everything. She's having a partner, kind of having a partner
who is constantly doing what they want without regard to anything that has to do
with your relationship or with what you want. I mean the fact that they
would have gotten away with what they were doing in the opening scene if he
wouldn't have been so interested in Oh look, it's a Fox trap. And
then he tries in them because he can't stop himself. They end up getting
caught, which he starts monologuing about and describing and invalidating her entire point.
Yeah, it's like, no, it won't get you here, it'll ni
get you if you stand there, which was based on nothing hubris is what
is based on hubris, which he has in spades. And yeah, I
think you're right hand Sure, I think you're right Hannah, though that I
don't know, I'm making a lot of inferences. I think we kind of
have to with her because we've given so little about her in the movie.
Ironically, or maybe that's the point, is that she seems sad, she
seems shut down, you know, she also does seem determined to stay with
him. And this is where I'm making a jump a little bit like that
she's almost kind of like resigned herself to the fact that she will be strapped
to this nincompoop until he gets them killed. And I think I've seen that
dynamic when I've worked with couples I don't know about you, Hannah, where
one person is shut down like that, and then they will say shut down
all the sessions until until every once in a while they say something wild like
I should have never married you, which is what she says in like the
last act of this movie. And there's nothing after that. There's no resolution,
They don't go back to that conversation. It just lays and hangs out
there forever. And then I think the next thing she says is she's pregnant.
Yeah, it is the next thing she says. And not only that,
but he doesn't ask, he doesn't say anything, he doesn't respond,
he doesn't say, oh, my god, I can't believe that you said
that. He says nothing, He just lets it lay there. Yeah,
and that's so odd. That's so odd that you wouldn't say something back,
like what are you talking about? Or what does that mean? Or what
does that mean for our future? What does that mean for the fact that
we're we have a child together already? Like nothing, there's there's nothing.
She says that, and he doesn't say a fucking word. M It almost
ignores it. Yeah, it just drops it. And yeah, because what
I would have found unsettling if I was him, what I would have found,
quite honest devastating if I was him, is that she didn't even say
that. Actually there was. It was an emotional scene, like she was
upset with him, but she wasn't like yelling that at him, like out
of like a fervor of anger. Right, you know, It's like she
said, she was calm as breath. She took a deep breath, and
she told you the truth or her like her secret that she's been hearing for
a while. And I see that in sessions. I have seen that in
session that I should say, in which a couple will drop a bomb like
that. Well, one person in the couple, and a lot of times
it was the quieter of the two and then the other person has no response
to it, like blank face. Very similar actually to this movie. I
wonder if Wes Anderson ever has something like this happened and that's when we put
it in the script. But like the number of narcissistic parents, yeah,
in his movies. I was thinking that too, like Royal Tenenbomb and even
like Steve Azizu, like it's a common thread. But like I said,
I just want to point out that's actually not an uncommon dynamic that I've witnessed
in therapy where I, as the therapist, have to check my face because
I'm like, I can feel myself internally gasp when someone says something like that,
and then I have to have the follow up internal gasp of oh,
I seem to be the only one that's upset by that mic drop, And
it's always happens the last ten session too. Yes, Well, that idea
that I'm the only one who's having a reaction to what a big statement that
actually is, yeah, and what that actually means, and that that can
actually mean that someone is out of the marriage already. That can mean that
they are or have been actively looking for ways to get out of the marriage
they are looking for I mean, there's so many different things. And when
it feels like, as the therapist, you're the only one who's weighing,
who's feeling the weight of something that someone has said that really feels off in
terms of sitting in the room with those two people and realizing that one person
does not have is that one of them is does is not having a response
that makes any sense to this what this person is saying, or doesn't have
the awareness and in this I mean with him has no awareness of what the
statement actually means. M yeah, right, he had or worse, they
either don't care or don't believe it yeah, or don't let it in or
their their disorder pushes it away and just goes whoop. That does not compute,
right exactly, that's a good phrase for it does not compute or that
didn't happen yeah yeah. And sometimes our job as a therapist is to verbalize
our reaction responsibly appropriately to that. So sometimes I've been the one who says,
like, you know, I felt something when that was said that made
me feel anxious or you know, sad, or that took my breath away,
you know what I mean, like I'm always Obviously you don't want to
be too dramatic about it because you don't want your emotions to be that in
the room as a therapist. Yeah, but I think it can be helpful
to self disclose in those ways to bring awareness of how shut down the couple
the system has become that they're not even feeling the emotionality that would be appropriate
to some of the things being said in session. And I've said declines too,
like I my heart's racing, or like I'm you know that made me
feel sad, like I took I even said like I'd hold in a gasp
and then I watched and it didn't seem like there was any impact happening to
two of you. Can we talk about that? Can we get into that?
Yep? Might Sometimes I'll say sometimes I'll say to a good partner who
says that, I'll say, what do you mean by that? Tell us
more about that. I want to hear more about what you're talking about.
I want to hear more about what that means to you when you say that.
Yeah, yeah, and that's what part of the whole techniques that you
can use in couples therapy as is it's I heard you, Hannah when you
said always have that reaction, because it's your job to unbalance the dynamic.
If you just get sucked into the dynamic that the couple has, it's not
helpful. It's your job to form an unbalanced in the situation, to draw
attention to how many things aren't working for one part of it, and having
that kind of reaction that someone may or may not get from their partner,
especially if there's issues with NPD involved. They might not have the partner might
not have had anybody acknowledged their feelings in quite a long time, and to
have somebody validate that would be extraordinarily meaningful and powerful to help them feel like
they can escape the gaslighting that is certainly happening on a day to day,
moment to moment basis, and the chronic invalidation that someone like missus Fox would
be getting of. She can say something that heinous to him and he's just
gonna be like yeah, or no show, no reaction whatsoever. Yeah,
Because I think, if I'm remembering right, that's one of the scenes where
they zoom in on his face again and he just is like like making absolutely
no reaction, stone faced. It's a very flat emotional part of that scene,
which is why it feels so like like the air like to me is
the viewer, it's like the air gets suck out of the room, but
their faces aren't doing that. And I think why someone like missus Fox would
say something that devastating and arguably cruel, right even though she seems like a
very understanding, empathetic kind person, you know, when you see her interacting
everybody else. Is when you're in a dynamic where someone is so insular and
so ecocentric and so loud with how they live, sometimes you feel like the
only way you can be heard is by saying something that cutting, that definitive.
It's almost like acting out, but in a very quiet way. And
if I were to work with them, that would be where my brain would
go with, you know, is like, why is that the only way
we feel like we can be heard by him is if we say something that
is catastrophic and even then he doesn't listen, and then we shut down,
and then we just keep on keeping on. We focus on our kids,
We focus on the household were in, We focus on our paintings, and
we try to just keep us going from one moment to the next, because
nothing defeated is kind of our energy just defeated. It's yeah, it's and
it's either that or they start gearing themselves up by just finally letting out the
intense feelings that they have the truth as a means to see see even when
I tell you the truth, you don't care, as a means of empowerment
to start giving themselves up to finally leave. Yeah, I've seen both and
you know leaving. What does become like the motivation to leave too, is
when if the parent, like in Missus Fox's position, starts to notice the
impact of mister Fox that parent on their child, which we do see in
this movie in terms of how Ash is growing into his sense of self as
a reaction to his father's narcissism. And so common concept with people who struggle
with MPD is that, like we've kind of been saying, is like everyone
in their life can just become like an extension of them in their mind.
You know, all roads lead back to them, all roads lead out from
them, right, And so how that happens with children and you see this
a ton in Royal ten in Bombs, the other Wes Anderson movie, right
that maybe we'll do some day down the road, is you know, you
your kids. Their primary role is how they and how they reflect you,
and how they decrease or increase your status as viewed by other people. And
so kind of as you brought up earlier, Ash, God bless him because
he's my favorite character in this movie. Does not do that for for Fox,
right, for mister Fox. And we're already seeing at like ten ish,
I think he's like nine or ten, is my guests, and you
can already yeah, sure, like oh what the yeah, the chemistry lab
Actually that's more like middle school, you're right, well, and the dating,
the interactions with girls and like not at all like getting it, but
wanting to you know, like that's like a pretty twelve year old kind of
thing. Yeah, so he's yeah, run eleven twelve, And how he
already is judging himself based on how he aligns with his father, was father's
self image, you know, specifically wanting so goddamn bad to be an athlete.
Yes, yes, he does want to be a little athlete, and
he is not at least not that kind right, Like there's lots of sports
to play. But when your dad is exactly like if your parent was just
like the best at this particular sport, and you want to be one of
those stories so that you can be good enough like your dad that you're just
so good at what is it, smash ball that bat? Kind of right,
it's like they're making fun of cricket. I mean, cricket deserves to
be made fun of because it's ridiculous. Yeah, and I did enjoy their
like making fun of cricket and how ridiculous it is. That was a that
was well done. But the importance that that has to ash to be seen
in that way, and that's the only way to be seen. He's going
to keep trying it, even though it's quite obvious his ability to actualize will
probably come from something else. He's quite fast, but his abilities at whackbat,
as Owen Wilson the Polar Bear makes quite clear to him, are um,
yeah, not quite man. He's like, you're improving, We'll put
it that yeah, But any coach that says we'll put it that way,
yeah, you are trying and showing all of the hustle. But uh buddy,
hmm. Yeah, because even in the moments and missus Fox is trying
to validate Ash and encourage him, like I think this is the most I've
ever written down like direct quotes when watching a movie. Is she says there's
something kind of fantastic about being different, which is like such a perfect way
for a parent to put that, And he literally beats like he's almost going
to accept it, and the last second he pulls back and he goes,
not me, I prefer to be an athlete, and I'm like no,
And you know, I think if I was missus Fox, like that stuff
would just keep coming up more and more, and so then I think it
starts to become a conversation of like do I choose my kid or my spouse?
And because Ash is someone like he's, you're already seeing that he's starting
to avoid school, Like that's the very first scene. He doesn't want to
go to school. He seems like he's getting bullied because he's trying to fit
in in a way that he's not going to fit in. And other kids
can smell try hard energy from like a mile away, and oh they sure
can. Yeah, and the worst and he and I think what's so sad
about that is Ash is really funny. He's weird, but in a way
that I love about kids. I love a weird kid, a kid who
wears a kipe took school, Like I feel like it's classic that kind of
sad, weird kid behavior. And I mean that with all of the love
in my heart. And he's tenacious, like he has all these positive strengths,
and the what sucks for a kid like him in his situation and being
raised by a parent with MPD is that he can't see any of that because
it's not aligning with the image that he feels like he needs. Because it's
not even just like I want to impress my dad, Like, it's not
like that trope of like I just want to win the score and touchdown so
my dad. Like I think what people don't understand is like for kids like
that gets tied to an essential need, which is validation, love, you
know, very necessary base sick needs stuff. So it's not even just I
want to please my dad. It's connected to deep, deep shit, you
know. And I would imagine here, I think something that told me everything
I need to know about mister Fox and Ash isn't the very first scene when
Ash is trying to say something you know, he's not really saying it well
because he's just trying to get out of school, which is something to be
curious about if you're a parent. And he spits on the ground, which
I think, you know, just kind of like being odd, and his
dad just goes he's different, but he says it in a way of like
he I won't get him, he's weird, like like almost like not giving
up on him, but you know, not attempting to understand his son,
kind of writing him off as different, with no curiosity about who what that
means, and no interest to get closer to that. You know, it's
like he's figured out who Ashes who Ash can't be. And that's the long
and the short of it. And so I would imagine that he does not
what we kind of said it with the diving scene, but he does not
give Ash attention. He does not he does not validate Ash for who As
actually is. And so how can ashe not be pissed off, irritable all
the time, probably sad most of the time, insecure and then you know,
chasing after his dad's affection. Yeah, he can't. He can't because
it is it's tied to safety, particularly like that that age group, he
hasn't started to really enter his own identity just yet. He's still quite dependent
M. And that I want to score that winning touchdown to get my dad's
approval would probably emerge in a couple of years, but not yet M at
this phase. Yeah, that had kind of helpless doping around following your dad,
like trying to tag along and just be seen and do whatever it takes
to just be seen and noticed. Is pretty on the nose behavior that you
would see from someone with a more narcissistic type parent that you're constantly going through
life hearing so much about their exploits that you don't have the opportunity to formulate
your own and your own identity because it's not being encouraged, it's not being
recognized. Everything that mister Fox talks about is to increase his own adulation of
others and the people that he keeps around him or you know, animals like
Kylie are people that validate who he was in what specific modes he could be
the best in or be that legend. And that does leave a lot of
space for him to talk with Ash about who Ash is or the things Ash
likes to do. It can result in little off handed comments like are you
are you wearing the cape? What's happening here? Why are you like this?
You know, very just like combative almost or antagonistic. Yeah, off
putting, like discouraging, and like the comment that you came up with me.
It made me think of a list of kids books that shouldn't have been
made that was passed around the internet forever ago. And it's like, you're
different and that's bad. Nobody poops, but you you freak right? Um,
Yeah, it's it's that very like because I would assume when mister Fox
looks at Ash, he can't find he can't he can't find himself right,
And so then Ash just gets if he can't fit into the schema of mister
Fox, then he's not making sense period, And there's no flexibility to get
to know Ash. And all Ash is going to know is that I'm failing.
I'm not quite pulling it off. I'm trying really hard. And I
think what I respect about him, which I hope will be a protective factor
in the long run, is that he does seem to be having a real
push and pull within himself about his dad. And what I mean by that
is there's these moments when he so clearly wants his dad's adoration and is trying
so hard, like when he's like jogging after the coach takes him out of
the whack bat scrimmage and he's like come on, And at the same time,
he seems so pissed off at his dad, you know, like the
energy he gives him during that morning conversation. At the very beginning, he
doesn't seem psyched to be engaging with his father, right, he spits on
the ground. It basically has a real off look on his face. And
you know, so are these moments when he also seems so agitated by his
father. And I think that can be a really confusing feeling that when I
work with adults who were raised by parents who just weren't well equipped to be
parents, there's still that internal struggle inside them are two wolves, if you
will, one of them that wants to please their parents still and one of
them that's so pissed off at their parents and not being able to really reconcile
those two very discrepant experiences, right, and remembering that there just on the
family unit that we see is that everybody is trying to reach actualization. Everybody's
trying to be who they are, but the narcissistic parent is only seeking to
be who they are without also trying to boost who their child is, who
bouses, without trying to provide any avenues because it doesn't occur to them because
they're focused only on their mission. I mean, I think it's part of
that symptoms that's like interpersonally exploitative behavior, you know, it goes and the
lack of empathy. It kind of goes back to that idea of there it's
so hard to understand that there are other unique individuals with full agency and autonomy
and personalities that are in the mix. It's not just you and people who
are so glad to be around you and to help you right that there is
like which is? Which is? Can be a comment trait of a lot
of cluster b personalag disorders, which is just struggling to feel the differentiation,
appropriate differentiation between ourselves and others right now. And this is how it comes
up in MPD. And then I think what I think this movie is just
a fantastic sample from such an unlikely place of how this behavior trickles like it
bleeds into the whole family dam all the way out to the cousin. You
know, a cousin, Christofferson comes and he just happens, just happens to
be really good at all the stuff that Ash is not good at, innately
that mister Fox is good at. And like you said in the beginning,
Ben, a very like textbook example of that is the diving scene, right
and then, and when Christofferson does that good dive, mister Fox perks up.
He can identify that because and I recognizes him, yeah immediately, m
Yeah, he really really goes out of his way to offer praise and recognition
and encouragement and identification as someone part of his family. Yeah, where he
couldn't be bothered before. Yeah, and then, but it's still but I
think what another good example of that, continue on with that is that doesn't
make Christofferson a unique individual to mister Fox either. Nope. Very shortly after
that, mister Fox starts to almost immediately view Christofferson's positives as how can this
aid me? How can this person function me? Even though he's a child,
And even though mister Fox very blatantly tells Ash you can't join you're a
child, he's already invited Christofferson's the same age, pretty much on the same
mission who falls right after Ash and it's like, I'm here and he doesn't
really seem like he even really understands what he's there for, which is very
exploitive behavior putting a kid into a crime situation, oh absolutely, which you
know can be The kind of things that people who deal with this in their
family can be exposed to is that the person with narcissistic won't believe that they
can get caught. They won't believe that bad things will happen to them.
Every one of their plans will work out just the best because it's their plan,
so of course it will work. We won't consider it critically or weigh
against reality or fact anything that would disprove that or provide even a chance.
So obviously the kid can come along and they'll be safe because it's my plan.
And also the kid is you know, awesome, because he's here with
me and I've decided he's awesome, So now he's awesome, and he's awesome,
like how I was awesome and still I'm awesome, so he'll be awesome.
Yeah, And where that becomes its own problem is that it can be
seductive into a lifestyle that's not appropriate and then create some really damaging reinforcers.
But it also results in the opposite, where we see someone like Ash who
isn't sure who their identity is and doesn't know what to do other than a
mimic things that don't come naturally to them and try to be good enough in
ways that don't they're not good at, which will ever work again. Management
training classes that I've had to take over the years, they make a good,
clear effort in almost all of the more professional consultants who come and do
this to remind you that stop making your staff who aren't good at things do
the things they're not good at if you expect to see good progress. If
you have a staff member who it naturally appeals to organize stuff and put things
together like a librarian might, let them do those things. If you have
somebody that likes to sit and nitpick Excel spreadsheets, let them do that.
If you have somebody that is more socially inclined, let them do those things.
And stop making a person who would rather sit by themselves in the back
corner of an office and talk to no one about nothing do the social aspect
of it. Let them do the thing they want to do and are good
at, and they'll be good at it. But what we see ash Kitt
is nothing encouraging who he is. So he doesn't know how to be ash
And I think that's the whole point of seeing. I don't know if they
ever do name the girl. Do they name the girl Fox? The girlfriend?
Yeah, Will becomes Christofferson's girlfriend? Right? If they did, it
was very fleeting, right, But you see that he doesn't know how to
be himself because nobody talks to him about what he likes. It's all in
reference to how they reinforced Dad's narrative about Dad. Nobody talks to the fox
about what the fox lie or the no one talks about him about what he
likes. So he doesn't know how to talk to other people from a standpoint
of confidence. He just doesn't know what to do in social settings at all.
And we had talked off Mike about does he have neuro is there neurotypical
stuff going on here? And I just don't think there's enough information, And
what we do have, we see that there's no effort to validate his identity
and provide any room for him to grow at his age, at his rate,
in his way, which is really important for a middle school kid,
that they be given some opportunity to establish themself as a unique and different person
than those in their family system. That they're either alike or dislike or to
dislike from those, but they can have space to grow who they are so
that they know how to operate themselves in social settings where Dad's not around,
like s yeah, because he says that line later in the movie, or
her name's Agnes, looked her up? Because he said, was I roote
to Agnes m later in the movie when she's talking to Christofferson and he basically
tells her buzz off. And but I think, what's interesting about and this
kys ties to what you were saying, ben Is. As the movie goes
along, Ash, I think, because Christofferson is such a good peer actually
to Ash, he starts to become more actualized Ash and more confident in what
he's able to do, right because I'm little right, And I think as
he grows and in that I don't even know, necessarily grows in his own
agency as so much as lets himself his guard come down a little bit.
With Christofferson, specifically, you do seem kind of bloom a little bit in
the final act of the movie and be more cognizant of how am I impacting
all other people feel? How am I coming off socially? You know?
Am I? Because basically what he's doing from my perspective to out therapist is
his dad isn't a safe person to be angry towards because his dad's opinion of
him already feels so scarce in trepidacious, right and like precarious. So when
that happens, you're angeredness doesn't disappear, right, And I think what we
see is when Christopherson shows up, he's kind of a good scapegoat for Ash
to put all these feelings he's having, and also that dynamic of competitiveness,
you know, assuming that Ash that Christofferson has it all figured out because he
can do this, that and the other. He gets Agnes to like him
immediately when he says like, you're my lab partner, when yeah, which
sandwich um is I don't know if I lost not just then, but basically
that he's just kind of coming awake because realizing Christofferson can be a peer,
can be a confidant and doesn't have to be competition. I think is such
a moving dynamic because I think what's also probably really hard for Ashes that he's
an only child for the time being, right, and so he doesn't really
have a like a compatriot, like a partner with the sibling in how Dad
is being. So he only really has himself to reflect upon about why Dad
treats him like this. You know, like even in Succession, which is
a show about a super narcissistic parent, the siblings kind of have each other
even though they're very antagonist towards each other, they also do still have each
other to kind of be like Dad's a dick, right, Yeah, Dad
is a dick, and he dicked us over in the following ways. Whereas
I think what asked shuffers some and maybe he just gets that a little bit.
Christofferson, is you know that perspective that he lacks. But remember Dad
scored four touchdowns. Yeah it's yeah, it's a good it's a good comparison.
M And seeing the way those two interact, Uh, yeah, that
that's a really good comparison. I like that. I think that for her
those of us who grew up in the nineties and as soon as Saturday Morning
cartoons are over love and Marriage turned on. Oh god, can you imagine
watching that show Arabic Children as an adult who does therapy? Now, No,
no, no, I haven't gone back, like um modern family is
hard enough. Oh, although, but they that show is so brilliantly done
that they like stay in the whimsical pocket and it's a little more um PC
of characters than I feel like, you get to see a little bit of
like a grown up Bundy and not have to suffer through like the yeah,
and growing up in Midwestern factory towns and such like we all kind of did.
Like no, thanks man. One more thing I just wanted to touch
upon, probably because he's my favorite before we take another break and go to
treatment is you know, when you do have kids that are competing for the
attention of one parental figure, it does cut down empathy, which you know,
I think what feels so when I'm watching this is a therapist. What
feels so shocking about Ash is how and they pointed out, like his mom
clocks him every time he does it is how inconsiderate and insensitive and mean.
Actually he's being towards Christofferson about Christofferson's dad and about Christofferson's a situation sick.
And one, I think that's part of being very young and still having a
pretty just not having enough abstract thinking to kind of go farther with how shitty
that is right, just not have any emotional intelligence to do that at that
age. And then two, I think it is part of being like competitive
like that is it makes you kind of ruthless. And if Christofferson already has
so many of the traits that ashe wants so desperately, then he must he
can be he can handle a little debt here and there by my shittiness,
you know. And why I think it's so telling of Ash as a product
of the environment he's in, is that when Christofferson does get upset and that
one's seeing any cries, you know, Ash gives as much as he can
in that moment, which is he does a little parallel play with him,
which is I will turn on my train. We will not talk about what's
going on, but I will turn on my train and I'll be with you
and try to cheer you up using something that cheers me up. So it
is a it is a token of validation and empathy in that moment, and
I think it's as far as ash is capable of because Christofferson must be such
a triggering entity for Ash in that household that to really fall in love with
Christofferson like everybody else's is too upsetting for Asho. It's that scarcity mindset,
you know, Christofferson's coming for something I desperately need. I have to,
I have to get ahead of him. And so I guess that's just part
of want to point out because I think that can happen a lot and sible
with siblings too that are raised by a parent like this, is that they
can't really rely on each other the way that you want them too because of
that scarcity that can come from what their parent is providing to them. All
Right, anything else I want to say about narcissism this movie, the family
dynamic before we move on to treatment. I just think I really want to
put out there before we move on that I think it's important to we acknowledge
how difficult it is for children to grow up in a house like that and
to deal with it on an ongoing basis. And that and that there is
a difference between parents that have you know, a degree of narcissism to their
personality or high ego, and parents that can't yeah see the achievements of their
children, can't make space for others can't because of the nature of their disability.
So I don't want everybody to hear, like who had a parent who's
engaged or active in the community or does things to think that their parent is
narcissistic or that other things were more important than them, even if sometimes it
felt that way, it doesn't always mean that, but that this is a
good example of how profound, oh the disorder can be, of how out
of touch, yeah, and what the impact on family members look like.
And I just want to take a second to acknowledge for anybody who's listening who
may have that it's really hard. It's really hard, and it probably did
make things really hard for you growing up, and it probably did make things
harder to connect like you see, Ashley, because nobody's reinforcing who you are.
And that doesn't mean something's wrong with you, even if somebody diagnosed that.
It's okay to have some recognition that we are the product of the life
that we've lived, and that's not always a diagnosis. Yeah, I mean
I think that's great to point out. And I've worked with people like adults
who were raised by a parent with a personality disorder like this, and there
can be deep fear that they also have a diagnosis, which sytems they do,
and my job is to not make them feel like demon for having it
right. And sometimes when I work with those people, it's almost like there's
so much anxiety. It's like, um, not self fulfilling prophecy, but
it's like their confirmation bias, Like they are so anxious that they are like
their parent that they will tell me how they're like their parent, and then
some as my job is to be like, you know, you were raised
by them, So there's there's a chance that you have just learned some of
these things, but that's bothering you. But the fact that it's bothering you,
you're bringing it up to me, you're in my office talking about it.
You recognize how it came up in your parent and how awful that was.
That suggests me that you probably don't and that you may struggle with behaviors
like that because you were taught That's how you get validation, that's how you
get respect, that's how you treat other people. You know, it's all
learned. It's like manners. It's like those are the manners of your household.
Unfortunately, and you if you can recognize that those not working for you're
already ahead of the game. You're already farther and your parent ever got And
we can work with that, right. And also it's acknowledging that it's one
of those things that whenever I say it, and I've said this before in
the podcast, is that it's so deeply personal and also it's not about you
at all, Like the way that your parent engaged with you had nothing to
do with you as an individual. You were just the kid that was there
when it happened. And also creating that separation of you know, the way
your parent treated you has nothing to do with you actually and has everything to
do with you, and also nothing to do with you as an individual in
terms of your value or your personality or the kind of person you are.
You are I think what feels hard about it we can both be validating but
also so difficult about receiving that message is acknowledging that you could I could have
changed you out for any other kid. And there's a good chance, you've
been treated exactly the same, and that hurts too in its own different way,
because then you have to accept that you weren't special, you weren't unique
to your parent, which is heartwrenching. And if we can get through that
together, then we can get to the next step, which is now you
have the freedom to be whoever you want, and my job is to help
you get there. And it's totally unmarried from your parent and their opinion of
you and whether you even want them in your life if they're still in your
life at the time you're seeing me, And that's heavy shit that when we
get to treatment, I'm going to talk about ash, but I don't think
he's there yet at eleven to do that kind of work, that's like next
level cerebral shit. To do that is a kid you don't get because as
a kid, you're just want your parent to love you and to think you're
the best, and you can't really separate their autonomy and their choices. You
can if you're pretty mature at that age. Emotionally, it's still very difficult
though too, like almost impossible in my experience as a child therapist. But
we will take a break here and we'll be right back with treatment. So
I guess that's in the full of conversation. I could keep going since I
was already kind of going there anyway, and that if I was to work
with kid like Ash, and I've worked with many kids like Ash, actually
is one is I think where I would start with him. I think he'd
come into my office because of the school stuff. He's not going to class
or he's getting into fights. He seems like a kid who would fight back
potentially at some point, and then he'd get I have to go to therapy
because he was as a consequence of school, right, or because he wasn't
going to school or being a conduct kid being a behavioral issue, right.
And I love kids like that. I love working with kids like that.
I feel like I respect their fire in them and that they fight back right
like they're having a hard time. And so with him, I think one
he'd be a kid where I would do a lot of shooting the shit playing
to get age appropriate, like stuff like let's go play whack bat if you
can play with two people, I don't know if that's possible, or like
swing the whack like I will throw the whack, like the acorn at each
other, and we'll take turns like you know, hitting it. We'll go
on walks together, We'll like, we'll chit chat and get to know each
other while we do physical stuff together, while we do things together. One
because he seems like a kid that energetically might need that, you know what
I mean, like just needs space to kind of move and not be confined
in my office. And then I think when you do that with kids,
it gives them a chance to think about therapy differently. The therapy is not
just like sitting across from an adult awkwardly staring at each other and like telling
all your secrets. That it can be hanging out kind of and that I
am a because we Also what I'm doing in those moments is I'm demonstrating to
him how interested I am in him, that, you know, like I
want to do this stuff with you and I want to get to know you.
And also, when I've worked with kids like this, they can be
very very defensive of their parents. So if I came and swing in and
I was like, your dad sounds like a dick, or like you,
or even just saying something much inappropriate, which is you know, it sounds
like your dad maybe isn't really showing you that he loves you, or it
sounds like your dad kind of can be a jerk sometimes. Huh. I
could see a kid like ash if I did that too early, tell me
to go fuck myself. He would do the spitting in my office and say
I'm never going back there again. She's you know, what was mean about
my dad, Like, because he's still bought into this idea that his dad
is the best, right, yeah, and that he just needs to figure
out there's something wrong with him, right, and he needs to figure out
what that is, and then he can be the best too and then be
pleasing to his father. Right. So I would have to be very careful
about how I talked about his dad, and that I was very neutral or
even like positive about his dad to certain degrees, right, I wouldn't want
to like fully reinforce the dynamic. But you know, I think that's I
think I've talked about this before. But you know, as a child therapist,
there can be a lot or even a therapist in journal, that can
be a lot of um pressure put on therapists to like talk about the big
issue immediately, and if you're ignoring it, then you're then you're delaying progress.
And I think he's a good example if I would probably see immediately what
the problem, the quote unquote problem was, right, yeah, the way
he is, And I might not approach that for months because if I push
it, it'll blow up and I and I would be my fault as a
therapist. So it would have to be something where maybe eventually he says something
offhanded about his dad, you know, in a disparaging way, and then
I would just practice very tentative curiosity about that. Oh really, huh,
that's weird. I might even feign like confusion, you know what I mean
to him to say more. You know, it's kind of like you're trying
to like cool out a little bit, you know. And and he'd be
a kid that I would be very careful, would be very careful about what
he brought up, that I wouldn't jump on too hard because he feels skittish,
you know, like he'd be skinnish about me about treatment for a while.
And so I think the price, I think the work I would do
with him for a while would be, you know, get him him to
acknowledge his feelings, getting him comfortable talking about his feelings to me about things
that maybe aren't a big deal, like I would talk about like you know,
Christofferson School, agnes like chemistry class, the bullies like very more surface
level ish topics, and let's get comfortable talking about our feelings in regards to
that problem, solving around that, cloping skills in regards to that. And
then eventually, hopefully when he learns to trust me and that I'm not going
to be a bad guy in his life, that maybe eventually weaken. And
also if I stay with him for a while, he'll get older as I
work with him, right and so eventually we'll hopefully get to the time where
we can really talk about his dad. And even then, like I said,
you have to put it careful, and I would be very like interesting,
huh, And then it would grow from there. And then this would
also be something where maybe we could figure out some stuff right now, feelings
and identification, coping skills, building him up his confidence. You know,
what are stuff that you like? What stuff you're good at? I would
encourage him in that way and maybe get his mom into that loop too,
and then it probably would be something where later in his life he can build
on those concepts with another therapist once he's old enough to really do the deep
process work more than like the psychoanalytical psychodynamic work of the impact that his dad
has had on his identity, on his relationship to others, you know,
because it's going to be interesting once he gets old enough to date date,
you know, it's going to be an evolving situation for Ash. And so
the point I'm making is you got to meet him where he's at, and
that understand that at first when it comes to parents, stuff like kids can
only really wrap their heads around so much, and so like I can see
what's going on, but he might not be able to see it for a
long time, and that's okay. And I don't have to hit on that
hard or at all even that much for him to progress and to do better
prognostically. So and I would just love like he's the kind of kid that
I would probably make me laugh, and I would have to watch it and
make sure I wasn't laughing at the wrong things, because like energy would his
sass would really crack me up. I wor if a lot of kids that
are very sassy like him, and I had to really like watch my face
so that I wouldn't encourage conducting behaviors, but it's funny sometimes, all right,
So that's what I would do. I'll go next here. I would
very much want to work with missus Fox in this environment. And I think
why I pick her is because she feels like the person who's probably or you
know, animal, who's most in need of a therapist, most in need
of space to be created, for her to have an identity, for her
to have feelings, for her to have thoughts, and for her to have
a place where she can work out some really important coping skills for dealing with
someone in her life, like mister Fox, because now he's re ingratiated himself
as a folk hero. And yeah, you know, I don't want to
be cynical here, but I'm going to be anyway, and I'm very tired
if I'm more cynical than usual. Just will put that in context here.
But he's likely to repeat his story again. He's likely going to get bored
with having the lack of challenge, the lack of an antagonist that he already
solved the problem. There's a grocery store that has all their food so they
can just live and some of the clues to that that he did not make
a shift whatsoever. Is he talks about how these people are the most or
these foxes right are the most important to him in that grocery store speech he
makes. But yet again it's really kind of about him, not about their
family or the fact that they're about to add another one. He doesn't acknowledge
his wife at all, And I suspect he's going to get bored with having
all of his problems solvable and laid out in front of him, And he's
probably going to get bored with living in a communal environment with every other animal
in that sewer and want something more and want to be seen as more,
and want to feel like he's a folk hero. So without any big people
are eventually going to get bored of adulating him for their day to day and
that's likely going to get old again. So his wife, Missus Fox,
who now we know feels like she should not have married him, is going
to need some support to figure out how she's going to manage her life as
she's about to go through another pregnancy and have a child. And he's going
to be needing to be safe while these farmers still very much want to kill
him and them, and they're gonna start figuring out sooner or later that their
stores being rated by a bunch of animals. This utopian vision that they've created
is not going to last very long. And if he's unable to change,
she's going to need a lot of support figuring out what she wants to do
and how she wants to manage it, whether it's stay or go, or
communicate with him about what she needs and how she gets some support and some
ability to individuate and actualize into whoever she needs to be, because she hasn't
even had a chance to do that, and she's obviously incredibly gifted, but
her role in this big heist was relegated to you draw the map. Yeah,
I could see for you working with her. Ben. The more we
think about this movie, the more she seems really fascinating to me, Like
her internal world is like the art she does make is like lightning striking the
area that they live in. Like I feel like you could have a field
day with her in terms of her arts and talking about her art, And
I absolutely would. And I work with a couple of art therapists now and
would absolutely be tapping them in or a good friend Rachel Harrison, who joined
us for Gone Girl, about these kinds of things in the imagery. But
you know, just in my advanced interest in narrative art, you know,
since we you know, all three sit here and do this podcast together and
share that interest, right, it's how we be too deep in stuff and
blow it up. Well, because it's real. That's art imitates life.
So yeah, it's art. And if her art is imagining, like what's
a lightning bolt that they could strike, we're seeing representation of two things that
are important. She's feeling internal chaos that even on this you know beautiful I'm
just gonna assume it's a fall day because everything's kind of fall colored. Yeah,
that this fall in England there, everything is kind of cool in the
countryside. And the way she sees it is a constant thunderstorm where everything is
gray and dark, and that is not the aesthetic represented at all at any
other time. Just the way she sees it, that's a pretty good indicator
that somebody's not feeling okay where they are, and that lightning strike could be
waiting for that one chance to get out and getting pregnant again. Boom,
yeah, yeah, because I think a point we haven't mentioned yet maybe we're
going to bring it a pana is that both times she's pregnant, it seems
like she waits a substantial amount of time before telling mister Fox that she's pregnant,
and even in the very beginning of the movie she lies and tells him
that she just has the stomach flu or a stomaic bug. And so like,
I would love to like as way to say I feel fascinated by her
the more we talk about this, like I would want to talk about that
with her for like four sessions, if not more, Yep, many more.
She would need ongoing support for a long time because what we can't do
is decide for her what she wants to do. Yeah, and many people
decide not to leave and not saying that you have to, but there needs
to be some significant restrategizing, rebalance, seeing and figuring out how she carves
out time for her own existence and makes him get on board with it by
setting boundaries. So my therapy with her would be all around boundary setting,
encouragement, support, and self actualization rather than dictating, because I can't dictate
for her what she's going to choose what she wants to choose, and it's
inappropriate for therapists to do that, even if it seems like every bit of
media it's like get rid of these narcissists in your life, Like, well,
hold on, we don't get to choose that for the client. If
the client wants that, okay, let's follow that path wherever it goes.
But we don't know where she's at, so we have to create space for
her to be able to decide what's going to be right for her and then
help her enact whatever plan it is in the best way that we can to
help her feel like her needs are going to get met somehow. So that's
why I would pick her. I think she needs an ally and an advocate
in a space, and I think that's all I have to say about that,
all right, Hannah. Okay, So I was thinking about what it
would be like to be to do a couple's therapy with mister Fox and Missus
Fox, and I think Ben's made it pretty clear that Missus Fox would need
her own individual therapy, no doubt, and would probably also would be suggested
for him needing his own individual therapy. But I think what would be what
makes me think about all of this is how important it is, and I
know I talk about this a lot on the podcast, but how important it
is to assess the relationship in a couple of different ways when you're doing an
intake with a couple, And so one way would be initially would be seeing
them together. I would see them together, see how they interact with each
other, and from all the things that we've already seen, we kind of
see that he ignores her, We kind of see that they're not engaged with
each other, or that he certainly is not engaging with her, I would
imagine there's some stonewalling going on. I would imagine that there would be This
would be a couple that would come in and sit down and not look at
each other. They would talk at you about each other. They would talk
at me about each other as if the other person wasn't there. And so
that would be one pretty big red flag of whether or not this relationship,
whether or not I can do the work I need to do with them with
the relationship. So then the second part of doing this the intake with the
couple, is where I see them each individually. And this would be one
of those times where I would not only be trying to get a lot of
information about how they grew up, what they're growing up was like, what
they saw relationships look like, what they're bringing to their relationship, but also
be able to check in with them about how invested are they in doing the
work that we have to do. And I think that I think that he
would just lie to my face, to be perfectly honest, I think that
he would say that he was there because he wanted to have a better relationship
with his wife, and I think that he would be totally full of shit,
and so that's how I would see him kind of reacting. I would
see him really saying, well, my wife really wanted to do this for
having our second child, blah blah blah. He would really want to say.
I think he would know the things to say to me, and I
think when I met with her, I would be able to see how disengaged
she really is and how I don't know that I would after the kind of
intake that I feel like I would have with them, not only as a
couple but also individually, I don't know that I would recommend them to continue
to work with me, because I think that too much individual work would need
to be done. And also I don't know that once that individual work is
done that they would be together. Yeah, because I think it, Yeah,
I mean even just based on what Ben said, what Ben was talking
about in terms of missus Fox, like, it just really feels like she
this would be one of those instances where one person comes in and says,
yeah, that they're they're willing to do the work, like he says that,
but then she comes in and she's like a friend told me to see
a therapist. I don't really know what I'm doing here. I feel like
it was a really big mistake to maybe married to him. I feel like
we're having a second child, and I feel like we should just have the
second child. Like there might be a lot of I mean, who knows,
Like I'm just of course making up all this stuff of what I think
she might say, but who knows what she might be coming in and being
like, I'm totally not interested in working on this at all. But we
thought that this would help, and we thought that this could do something.
And they also, I would imagine they also would be a couple who would
come in at the last minute and really want me to be the one to
tell them that they can't be together, versus them coming to their own conclusion
of that in themselves. I also feel like with mister Fox, he would
really be pushing for a solution to things. He would be very solution focused
about, well, what's going to work, what's going to change, what
are we going to do? And I and that's really not how couples work
works. We do a lot more of teaching them how to communicate with each
other, understanding each other, understanding where the other person is coming from,
and that once we figure out some of those things, then sometimes solution comes
to other problems. But a lot of times it's really just figuring out how
to communicate with each other. And since their communication is so stifled fold because
of his MPD, it would be really hard for that to all of a
sudden be something that changes without a lot of individual work. Yeah, and
so I so I think that that's what I would want to do, and
that I would and that if I so, let's say they've both done individual
work and they come in and I would still say that it would be hard
because he would have to really be focused on the relationship and she would have
to be She would have to want to engage in a relationship in a completely
different way because the way that their relationship has been engaged, the way that
they've both been engaging in it is not sustainable in any kind of way unless
there's absolutely no status quo change for either of them. But having a new
pop is going to provide that status quo change. Yeah. Yeah, I
think a big hurdle you're gonna you would have to deal with, Hannah is
and we see this in the movie where he is like, well, I'm
a wild animal. This is who I am. Like you need to get
on board if this is gonna work, and which is yeah, which is
very much this energy of like I am who I am, and why do
you want to change me? Yeah? And why do I have to change
for the relationship go ahead? It's unloving to ask me to change, you
know how I was gonna got married and now you want to change the rules.
And that's really difficult cause I think what he's obviously struggled with this movie,
and what I think would trickle down into real life work is the level
of accountability, an ownership, like radical ownership that you have to take when
you do collaborative therapy is so it's an ego death, really, and it's
so it can be so triggering if you are just not able to do that.
And in this movie he very he says I'm sorry to ask, but
really doesn't take accountability for much, and when stuff happens, he's still very
much in that victim mentality. I wrote I couldn't. I didn't write that
the quote, but like when he gets his tail shut off, he's very
like, I can't believe this is happening to me. And it's like,
Babe, you did this to us, So I wouldn't. I wouldn't be
jealous of you, Hannah for working on them as a couple of therapists.
Yeah, all right, we'll take our final break here and then do finals.
All right, Ben, have you ever seen this movie before? I
have not. I'm gonna have you go first. Then okay, I will
go first. I really liked this one. I don't always like Wes Anderson
movies. Some of them annoy the shit out of me. Um, this
one I liked, and I really appreciated the humor of it and the way
they would work very adult things into a child's story, and that when Sanderson
can't help himself and to paint stories of like rampant narcissistic parents and adults who
are being painted in their true lights through the eyes of children, and how
it impacts the children. I think he's very good at that, and children
are frequently told much more honestly, I think in his stories than a lot
of other directors ever do so I you do. Despite this, some of
his movies I don't enjoy. It's I think it's probably largely because I watched
Life Aquatic first and it was totally different than I was expecting it to being,
just like upset me at how dry it was, and like this is
I thought this feel for it. I could not but it. I might
be willing to revisit that later. But I think this one is really good.
I think it's a It's an interesting example. I think of how important
it is to keep in mind what kind of a parent a child has before
you diagnose them with anything, and what kind of life they live, because
it'd be very unsurprising for someone to take a look at someone like Ash and
be like, oh, well, he doesn't get social interactions. Well,
he makes weird eye contact, he has limited range of interest, and he
only sort of gets it he's probably on the spectrum, and I would flat
refuse to just willy nilly provide that label to anyone, but especially not this
kid of Mike hol On. Well, let's see what's going on. I
think this movie did a good job of showing that. Watching him and Christofferson
interact and then try it like both to follow Dad around kind of made me
laugh because I was like, ah, look, it's what Tim Drake and
Dick Grayson would go through if they ever got together. And we're trying to
figure out who they are in relation to Daddy Batman an other self involved purse
just a little. Yeah, it's hard, but not necessarily this personality disorder
it self involved has aspects of elevated narcissism, yes, but not necessarily like
so willing to self destroy everything like mister Fox's Like there's some profound differences.
But you know, watching like how would Robin turned into night Wing is kind
of when you were talking about watching watching Ash kind of developed his own thing.
Well I'm small and I can do this, and he went off and
like did his own things Like that's pretty much what did Grayson did when he
left behind the Robin Moniker and stuff. And kind of as he grew up
actualized into his own thing and stopped trying to do it Bruce's way and would
clash with Bruce a lot and be like, no, I'm going to do
it my way in a way that makes sense to me, and I don't
need to do it your way, and I can be me and be okay.
And we saw ashe do exactly that he stopped trying to be his dad
and did it his own way and it worked for him. So I like
this one. I sat down and watched it with my child, at least
part of it, and she wanted to watch the rest, which is she's
like, wait, what happened in the part I didn't see? And that's
she won't do that with everything. So I'm going to sit down with her
and watch the rest. And Yeah, I think I would watch this one
again if I already used a hand rating system. Yes, you should also
Aisle of Dogs as well, which is his other movie that's similar to this,
and I think would be okay for able to watch because there's a lot
of dogs that are not treated well. But I don't think you see anything
that I think would like really upset her as a five year old. Yeah,
well, Disney kills everybody's parents, so you know, I think that's
true. She's seen more brutal things than that. If you watch Lion Ging,
she loves the Lion Guard. So we've watched the shit out of anything
lion related. That's the current kick cute. I'm just glad it's not the
sequels of Little Mermaid anymore where we have to watch her mom get run over
by a pirate ship of humans anymore. They need they need the therapist department
because they all have Yeah I don't I don't know there was two or three,
but like whichever ariials beginning. Yeah, they just like straight up have
a boat. Like a ship just runs over her mom. And that's why
King Triton hates humans so much, is because mom got run over by a
terrible that's fucking crazy and the movie crazy terrible. Yeah, it's one of
those made for DVD, right made Sally Field, Oh, Sally, I
mean get that check, I guess girl. But all right, Hannah,
what are your thoughts? Um? I like, I like this movie.
I've watched it a couple of times. I just like, I really like
Ash a lot, and I like Christopherson and I think they're really cute,
and I love how they say cuss instead of using cuss words and yeah,
yeah, that part really cracked me up. So I like this. I
like this movie. Um. Even though I don't like mister Fox very much
at all, I do like this movie and I will definitely watch it again.
It's on Disney Plus for anyone who has not watched yet and has listened
to this whole episode not watching it. Um. I like I said,
I love this movie. It's my favorite Wes Anderson movie. Surprisingly, I
also find mister Fox to be very unlikable. I like this movie because it
feels like fall and it's very like cozy like that. I also just love
the way that Wes Anderson filtered his sensibility into a kids movie, like the
saying cuss. There's a really funny master cut super cut of all the times
they see a cuss in the movie that I would recommend everyone and check out
on YouTube if they can find it, because saying like cluster cuss and what
the cuss? What the cuss did you just said to me? Like,
it's so funny and stupid in a way that always wants to laugh. And
Bill Murray doing it is very funny, So I will watch this movie a
bajillion times more. I'm really glad that it's on Disney Plus and hopefully we'll
stay there forever. Yeah, what, I would highly recommend it. And
also, yeah, like I said before, Jason Schwartzman doing anything in a
Wes Anderson movie really gets my goat. So I think it's a big part
of why Ash works for me, and I like a spunky kid. So
with that we will sign off there. As always, find us on Facebook,
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