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Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast
where we watch blockbuster movies and psychoanalyze them.

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My name is Bernie Brownfield and I'm
a child therapist and I'm joined by

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Ben Stover, individual therapist, Hannah
Espinoza, marriage and family therapists. We're

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all licensed clinical professional counselors also known
as therapists who practice out of Chicago.

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Even though we are licensed mental health
professionals, this podcast is purely for entertainment

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purposes and to fulfill our love of
dissecting pop culture in all forms. Please

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remember that, even though we are
all licensed therapists, we aren't your therapist.

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If you are struggling with mental health
symptoms, please find a local mental

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health provider. Hi, everybody,
Today we are going to be talking about

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Wes Anderson's Fantastic Mister Fox. This
is one of my favorite movies. So

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I've already had two so far this
season, this Terminator that I'm so excited

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to talk about. And so this
episode we will be focusing on narcissistic personality

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disorder and the family dynamics that we
see within this movie affecting the whole Fox

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family. So that's mister Fox,
Missus Fox Ash and the cousin Christofferson,

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so hid the main plot of the
movie. It's a kid's movie, So

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it's pretty simple, is that our
mister Fox, our fantastic mister Fox,

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is he's sort of, like to
put it simply, a criminal who tries

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to go straight when he realizes his
wife's pregnant. And then after twelve fox

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years two human years, he gets
that itch, that itch to get back

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into the criminal lifestyle of stealing chickens
and all that kind of stuff from local

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farmers. Basically shenanigans occur in which
he endangers the livelihood of not just his

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family, but the entire animal kingdom
in the area, uh, because of

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his relentless pursuit of getting up into
it. So as we jump into that

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first, we want to do,
like always is define the terms we're using.

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So narcissistic personality disorder. I think
like a lot of personality disorders is

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being thrown around a lot lately.
I hear a lot in the ether nowadays

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of people saying that person's a narcissist. Fast persons a narcissist. It's kind

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of become the new borderline. Yeah, I've not met a single person who

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has divorced or broken up with a
man who has not been with a narcissist.

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Just just gonna put it out there. Yeah, it is being irresponsibly

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used. Not saying they're not out
there, but you know, it is

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like being irresponsibly used. Not every
person you've ever dated has narcissistic personality disorder,

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I promise you. Yeah. And
also we want to be clear and

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why we want to define NPD narcissistic
personality disorder is that there's a difference between

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being narcissistic, having narcissistic traits,
maybe being egocentric or egotistical, and having

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NPB. Like we said before,
whenever we're diagnosing someone, what makes them

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diagnosable is that the traits that they
are exhibiting are getting in the way of

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their life in some way, either
their social functioning, their work functioning,

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their ability to take care of themselves. And I think what we see here

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right away with mister Fox is that
his symptoms are getting in the way of

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all his functioning, his marriage,
his livelihood, his literal life, his

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house, his tree, if you
will, his community, everything. So

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that is a difference between someone who
is a little up their own but someone

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who who is maybe a little selfish, versus someone who has a diagnosable set

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of symptoms. So I'm just gonna
read off really quickly and then we'll jump

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into where we see it in this
movie. So, for someone to be

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diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, they
have to have at least five of the

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following nine criteria. A grandiose sense
of self importance, a preoccupation with fantasies

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of unlimited success, power, beauty, love, YadA, YadA. A

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belief that he or she is special
and unique and can only be understood by

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or should associate with, special or
high status people or institutions. A need

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for excessive admiration, a sense of
entitlement, interpersonally exploitive behavior, a lack

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of empathy, envy of others or
belief that others are envious of him or

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her, and a demonstration of arrogant
and haughty behaviors or attitudes. So,

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so we're talking about a Fox or
somebody else just checking. I mean,

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it just sounds like someone we've been
watching for the past couple of years.

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Are you talking about someone who was
also of the orange variety like mister Hawks?

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Just ironically enough, also like somebody
who's somebody in our comments section on

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our one of our pages, seem
to think we were a fan of which

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is incorrect. That is true.
Just for the record, you guys are

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ever reading through our reviews on Apple
podcasts, someone because of just a badly

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placed ad left a comment that weird
Trump supporters, We're not. If you

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listen to more than one episode of
US, you know whether we're not.

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Yeah, So I would say we
see almost all of these criteria. Was

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all these symptoms with our lead character
here, mister Fox. Yes, yes,

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I mean I think the first sense
that comes to mind for me,

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and this is where he sort of
almost cite almost self diagnosis in the movie,

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is a need for excessive admiration.
Hmm. Absolutely, yep. He

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definitely wants to be the most important
person. And I think the most glaringly

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obvious moment where we saw that was
when he interrupted Badger's speech despite Badger like

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hosting the entire town and trying to
keep them safe, and then he just

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like completely ignores that that's happening.
It like cuts him off and goes,

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yes, it's my toast. Now. That was a big turning point for

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me. M Yeah, I would
say, the just the amount of speeches

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he gives in the movie period during
the worst case scenarios. You know what

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I don't want to do when I'm
running for my life, pause and listen

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to some jackass give a speech about
how awesome he is more than once.

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Yeah, and he kind of mentions
that, Brittany, would you ask,

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would you huh, given our episode
we just did, if it were a

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super handsome, scummied up ranger from
the Earth, would you listen to the

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speech? Hannah would look at that
face. I'm assuming we're referring to Lord

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of the Rings. Yes, Um, did I have to do? I

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have to pay attention to the content
of the speech or kind of just stare

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at them and kind of zone out. Maybe it require them a little bit.

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I mean, because I would say
depends his speeches are not as self

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involved as every single thing that mister
Fox has to say accurate. I mean,

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Aragorn is not narcissistic at all.
Um, No, not even slightly.

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I'm not alluding that just for a
point of clarification, given that we

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talked about speeches so much in ours
we did we did too, You're right,

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I think it would be more like
now I'm trying to pull all the

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rings reference out of my ass.
I think it'd be more like mid battle

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if Arne was like, hold well, the time out, um, So

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you know, I'm just thinking about
how cool it is that I'm king now,

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and like how good of a job
are already doing at this fight?

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We're right and right now, and
isn't that great? Let's raise a toast

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to that? And you'd be like, what the fuck are you talking about,

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dude, I've got a knife at
my neck. So I think that

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is the energy I feel like,
because I think it's kind of that combination

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of difficulty with empathy, how all
these symptoms kind of converge on each other.

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Is an inability to read the room. You know. That's what it

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looks like when you have kind of
the grandiosity, the need for excessive admiration

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on top of in the entitlement,
on top of like empathy. When that

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stuff swirls together, that is someone
who cannot read a room, even though

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they are they have the capacity to
be charming, to maybe even be kind

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of like love bombing and that kind
of stuff, to be you know,

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very complimentary and come off really well
their kids to a point when it's obvious

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they can't read a room in these
kind of situations because these symptoms they get

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in the way that are very self
involved will overcompensate for the social intelligence that

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they're lacking, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, They'll

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retreat into what they're good at,
and the conversation will stay restricted to those

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topics, regardless of what's going on
or what they can project an image of

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being good at that they are unable
to see is not necessarily real or appropriate

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or both. Like, I even
think, going back to that example you

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gave about interrupting badger speech, also
that his total inability to recognize how that

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would make Badger feel, right,
someone who I think he would identify as

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a friend in a colleague, and
how that would look to everybody else in

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the room, that he straight up
cut him off and stole his speech.

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Yeah, yeah, that was bad. I think honestly. The one that

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was the other moment that he showed
that absolutely lack of awareness or recognizing.

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The moment was when Christofferson and Ash
were diving and Ash tried so hard to

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get his attention just doing normal kid
things. Did Dad, look at me,

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look at me, I'm gonna jump, Look at me, I'm gonna

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jump. I'm gonna jump. And
kids just do that. They just want

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you to like pay attention to them
and approve of something that they do for

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five seconds and they'll move on.
And he barely gave him an ounce of

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his attention, and then Christofferson came
up and did the super awesome Olympic style

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dive with no splash, and all
of a sudden, Christofferson is the coolest

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person ever. Because mister Fox needs
to be associated with the best people.

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Yeah, Which is that other symptom, right, is this need to be

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associated with other people that you view
as the same status as you or higher

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than you because you should be higher
with them, Well, they should be

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higher with you. Yeah, Well, meeting people that are on the same

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plane that you feel like you are
on or should be on. Right.

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But remembering when we talk about narcissistic
personality to sort of, I think the

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part where people get lost with it
and make mistakes is that what makes it

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a personality disorder is it doesn't have
to be true. They don't have to

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be the actual best person at what
they're doing. They just think they are

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and have an inability to see or
be proven otherwise that they are not m

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Yeah, certain people actually don't have
the best words. They don't know all

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the words. When they say I
have the best words, you are not

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actually amongst the company of people who
perhaps write dictionaries yeah, or thesaurus is

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for a living, or write academic
papers. Yeah. I mean, I

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think it's that's where the kind of
break, not break from reality, but

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just to sort of disconnect from what
is true, like you were saying that

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is pathological, right, or that
not really seeing what's actually happening, what's

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in front of you. And also
I think kind of piggybacking off that distinction

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you're making is that I think when
we think of people who are narcissistic and

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when we call people that like societally, I think it's it comes from this

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idea. At least this is how
I receive it when people say that,

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is this this idea that they are
so into themselves they have they're so egotistical

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in the sense that they think they're
the shit and they're so uber confident.

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And I think what's so interesting when
you actually work with someone someone who is

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mpdor, someone who actually has it, is that kind of tug of war

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of that kind of delusion of like
I am high status, I'm the best,

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but also needing constant reassurance that you
are the best. So it's it's

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like you're so run by your ego, but your egos also so fragile.

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So it's not this idea that I
think people hold that you're like unshakably egotistical,

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that you think your shit don't stink
and no one can tell you otherwise.

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There is a bit of that.
But I think where I really I

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can find empathy for people struggling with
MPD is that it's such a difficult place

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to be in internally, where your
self worth is so important and it's also

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so highly impacted by other people who
are outside of your control, whether you

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want to admit that or not.
Right well, where it separates from anxiety,

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right where that is a conscious awareness
a thing where people who who are

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anxious and eager to prove themselves as
the best, like people who are high

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achievers, is people who are narcissistic
don't do the effort usually to prove it.

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M the difference between some mister Fox
and Christofferson. Christofferson is quite good

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at the things that he's doing he
actually does no karate, yes, and

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he's actually good at whackbat and all
this stuff. He's a natural and he

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actually has skills about it. But
he doesn't go around talking about it or

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making that the point of conversation.
He just does the things he does and

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then tries to relate to people on
whatever level is happening around him, and

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even tries to build other people up. Mister Fox makes no effort to build

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anybody up ever. M definitely not. Yeah, And that's where I think

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narcissism becomes such a challenge. As
people who are anxious about their status,

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are anxious about their approval, will
understand why they are anxious. They will

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be trying to be better. And
people who are narcissistic will expect you or

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someone else to see them and validate
them where they are at. And it

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is such a difficult thing to have
in your life, whether it's you living

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with it or others in your life
living with it, because they don't see

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it at all. They just expect
to be treated like they're the best,

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and they cast out others who don't
validate that. Usually quite incorrect, but

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not always viewpoint. Some Sometimes they
are really quite good at things, but

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they expect to be treated like royalty
always m Yeah, and it's a very

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helpless I view it clinically as like
a very helpless position to be in,

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you know. I don't know if
anyone with MPD you would necessarily think of

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it that way, but it's it's
always a helpless position to be in when

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you're dependent upon external validation. Yeah, because you can't control that. You

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can, you can pretend like you
can, you can have the content distortion

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that you can, but you can't
actually do it um and so then you

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end up doing things like we see
him. One of the very first scenes

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is he's readings are icle in the
paper. He's a published writer, like

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well, a newspaper writer, and
what is he first? One of the

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first things he says, but are
you who's talking about it? What are

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they saying about it? Are your
friends reading it? Why aren't they reading

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it? They should be reading it. You know. It's these constant bids

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for validation and reassurance about yourself.
It's never enough to just have done something.

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There has to be that follow up, you know, which is the

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conversation that i've right after that,
where he says, I don't want to

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live in a hole anymore. I
feel poor, And she says, but

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we're happy, and he's kind of
like, does not compute, Yeah,

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Like, how could we be happy? How could we be happy? That's

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impossible if we're being almost like,
how can we be happy if we're being

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viewed as poor? Because that when
he says I feel poor, My assumption

205
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would be if I dig deeper with
him, is that he would it.

206
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Eventually, he would identify that he
is can be viewed as poor in the

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situation he's in, right, And
it's so fascinating watching the conversation he has

208
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with Badger, where Badger's telling him, like, dude, don't go live

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in the tree. That's how you
get killed. Basically all right, He's

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essentially telling him, if you go
live in the super visible tree, you

211
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are entering the kill zone. I
can't remember what exact phrase he used,

212
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but he basically told the most dangerous
neighborhood. I think he says it's like

213
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the worst neighborhood for his worst neighborhood, somebody like you could live in or

214
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:33,359
something like that. Right, it's
not ambiguous. Yeah, he's like this

215
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is They get into it almost a
physical altercation about the fact that he's going

216
00:18:37,559 --> 00:18:42,039
to make this decision, yes,
right, And of course he's disregarding the

217
00:18:42,079 --> 00:18:47,720
advice of his hired legal counsel,
who he I assume went to, so

218
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,599
I think this is the trap,
right, he goes to Badger to get

219
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I am I would assume advice expertise
in regards the situation. He doesn't hear

220
00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,000
what he wants to hear. He
doesn't hear what vow dates that, so

221
00:19:00,039 --> 00:19:04,720
he disregards it. He spits it
out and puts it away, and he

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00:19:04,799 --> 00:19:07,640
says it very clearly. He says, well, I hear what you're saying,

223
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and I'm gonna I'm gonna buy the
tree, right, And look at

224
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what he, you know, is
buying. He's buying a big tree on

225
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a hill by itself that's extremely visible
and desirable and one hundred thousand percent inappropriate

226
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for a nuisance predator to live in, because part of you know, Fox's

227
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:48,200
ideology is that they live in holes
and retreat because they are quite confident diggers,

228
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:56,039
which they make a point of highlighting
throughout the entire film, not the

229
00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:02,039
edeology, but there their biology,
right is there in ecology is to be

230
00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:07,759
a sneak thief, and ane should
probably not be one that goes, hey,

231
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:12,319
look where I live, because I'm
going to come here and I'm going

232
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to take all your ship and I'm
going to bring it back to this lone

233
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tree on the hill towering over everything
else. Oh wait, hold on,

234
00:20:19,319 --> 00:20:25,119
I just described American society. Never
mind. I mean, I think this

235
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goes to what I feel is one
of his most prominent characteristics, which I

236
00:20:30,279 --> 00:20:34,559
think would be for me as a
consion, a driving factor in diagnosing him

237
00:20:34,599 --> 00:20:40,599
with MPD, is a demonstration of
arrogant and haughty behaviors or attitudes. The

238
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:47,799
whole movie, he is doing stuff
that to us makes no sense in the

239
00:20:47,839 --> 00:20:49,920
grand scheme of things. But it's
that's the part of it. Is,

240
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:59,839
like that arrogance and the excitement of
engaging in something that fills up that cup

241
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that gets his motor running right,
and there's not really any thought about how

242
00:21:04,759 --> 00:21:10,440
stupid it is. Well, I
guess how dangerous it is, how danger

243
00:21:10,519 --> 00:21:12,519
it is, especially because his family
will be living there. It's not like

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00:21:12,559 --> 00:21:15,200
he's going to be living there by
himself. His whole family will be there.

245
00:21:17,759 --> 00:21:23,799
Because all I think all he's seeing
is the temptation of being in that

246
00:21:23,839 --> 00:21:29,799
close to in proximity to those three
farms. It's like he's being called back

247
00:21:29,839 --> 00:21:33,359
to the casino or something, or
being called back to the gang he used

248
00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:37,880
to run with and do like petty
crimes with. You know, it's it's

249
00:21:37,559 --> 00:21:41,799
it's almost like he wants to go
back into his old life, and the

250
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:48,920
temptation of that is to is too
hard to manage in combination with like the

251
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,720
arrogance and haughty behaviors, like the
inclination to engage in those like he doesn't

252
00:21:52,759 --> 00:21:59,240
have that thing that we have which
stops you. And it's like, I

253
00:21:59,279 --> 00:22:03,160
know that feels like ding and I
know that feels nostalgic, perhaps even,

254
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:10,200
and it's adrenaline pumping, and it's
no longer a priority, like we're valuing

255
00:22:10,279 --> 00:22:14,519
something else now, which I think
is what we see in the opening of

256
00:22:14,559 --> 00:22:18,039
the movie when they get trapped in
that cage and his wife does tell him,

257
00:22:18,039 --> 00:22:22,119
I'm pregnant. You know that is
what she's really saying in that moment,

258
00:22:22,759 --> 00:22:27,880
in very like two sentences, is
I need you to value something more

259
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:36,920
now than this buffoonery. And he's
able to do it for a while,

260
00:22:37,559 --> 00:22:42,640
for a while, yes, until
the temptation creeps in and he doesn't have

261
00:22:44,039 --> 00:22:48,480
the what we're looking for. He
doesn't have the resilience or the coping mechanisms

262
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:55,359
to fight off that temptation. No
well, and it is it's quite common

263
00:22:55,400 --> 00:23:02,839
for young men to need to grow
the hell up when they become dads.

264
00:23:03,279 --> 00:23:12,799
Right. It's quite a normal experience
to have higher tolerance for risk and less

265
00:23:12,839 --> 00:23:19,200
concern for your well being or anything
else until you have a child. And

266
00:23:21,319 --> 00:23:26,599
men do go through quite a bit
of maturing real quick, many of them,

267
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:32,200
not all of them, unfortunately,
but when they are set to become

268
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:38,400
dads, and expectations on themselves and
societally change for many Unfortunately, we all

269
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,039
know way too many stories where that's
not true, So I'm not going to

270
00:23:41,079 --> 00:23:45,279
say that's a broad stroke, but
it does happen for those usually are emotionally

271
00:23:45,279 --> 00:23:51,359
healthy and capable that something starts to
change when that happens. What we don't

272
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:56,400
see with mister Fox is that look
real for him and he's able to change.

273
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:03,839
But you can see right away he
hates everything about his status change from

274
00:24:03,839 --> 00:24:07,799
being free and able to do things
in a way where he can keep his

275
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own counsel and do it his own
way, and missus Fox is like,

276
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:17,680
you need to wake the fuck up. We're fine, we're happy here,

277
00:24:18,039 --> 00:24:23,039
we're happy, everything's working, and
it wasn't for him. M Yeah,

278
00:24:23,039 --> 00:24:30,000
because I think what he's lacking is
that intentional shift. You know. He

279
00:24:30,039 --> 00:24:37,240
feels more like someone who's doing a
combination of like maybe white knuckling and denial

280
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:42,720
of his needs and or trying to
get the same cup filled in a different

281
00:24:42,759 --> 00:24:51,720
way instead of trying a different cup
entirely and coming to terms with that right,

282
00:24:51,759 --> 00:24:56,079
which is where you know, parenthood
and fatherhood changes. You know,

283
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,160
I can't speak to what motherhood feels
like. I've you know, watched it

284
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,359
closely but been a mother and never
will be. But being a dad,

285
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:08,880
like you feel something change in you
and Nope, this little creature that I

286
00:25:10,079 --> 00:25:17,440
made is now more important than me. Period. That's what usually happens,

287
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:22,680
and I don't think that ever happened
from mister Fox. People have to learn

288
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,359
that I am not the most important
thing in the universe anymore. And I

289
00:25:26,839 --> 00:25:33,599
think you're right, he's white knuckling
that and resenting that and then not getting

290
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:38,000
his needs. Matt finding alternative ways
to get attention, like none of them

291
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,000
are none of them are hitting people
aren't reading his column. He's a newspaper

292
00:25:42,039 --> 00:25:47,960
man now, but he always wanted
to be a sneak thief. Again,

293
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:56,640
well, he wants to be you
know, the legend, right I And

294
00:25:56,759 --> 00:26:00,359
my assumption is is that he was
probably pretty legendary when he was young as

295
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:06,599
a chicken thief and a little rascal, if you will, and to have

296
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,720
your picture and your byline in the
paper, which is pretty cool actually,

297
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,079
and a lot of people get that
even in terms of status and attention,

298
00:26:12,799 --> 00:26:18,640
that's still not enough. And I
think what actually is difficult for real life

299
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:23,039
people who struggle with MPD is that
it is a cup with holes in the

300
00:26:23,079 --> 00:26:26,440
bottom. You know, it's there. Very rarely is ever going to be

301
00:26:26,799 --> 00:26:33,279
enough because you're looking for something that
you have to give yourself, you know,

302
00:26:33,319 --> 00:26:37,279
going back to that external validation part
of it is that that's never going

303
00:26:37,319 --> 00:26:41,640
to be enough, and so you're
always going to be climbing waiting for I

304
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,799
don't know, maybe if I become
president of the United States, I'll finally

305
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:49,839
feel good, like I'll finally feel
enough, like we're done now, and

306
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,519
I can sit on that status for
the rest of my life and be full.

307
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,519
And the problem is is that your
stomach has holes in it, and

308
00:26:59,559 --> 00:27:03,319
that's what you have to be paying
attention to. That's the problem, right,

309
00:27:03,599 --> 00:27:07,559
not what's coming into the stomach,
what's coming into the cup. M.

310
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:14,240
Yeah, And I guess some other
state traits that we see that make

311
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,720
make him feel like someone who might
get diagnosed with MPD if they stumbled into

312
00:27:18,759 --> 00:27:22,759
our office. I would say,
in some ways, his lack of engagement

313
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:30,160
in his relationships. M say more
about that, whether it's whether it's relationship

314
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:34,680
with his wife or his relationship with
his child. I think we see him

315
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:41,319
apologize to Ash, but we don't
really see him engage in a different way.

316
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:47,400
And I think that's because when and
I think a part of that has

317
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:52,160
to do with someone who has MPD
really struggles with looking outside of themselves.

318
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,440
They don't have that awareness. And
so I don't think he can take into

319
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,839
account his relationship with his wife or
even with his child, because he's so

320
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:08,680
busy trying to keep his status up, or he's so busy trying to focus

321
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,599
on what he thinks is really important. I think it's really hard for him

322
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:18,519
to engage in those relationships. And
so I think he's disengaged from his wife

323
00:28:18,559 --> 00:28:22,960
and from his family in general.
Yeah, I think his relationship with the

324
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:30,160
possum is Kylie. Kylie much more
present in his life, yeah, than

325
00:28:33,039 --> 00:28:37,119
his relationship with his child or his
spouse. I think you're right, Hannah.

326
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,680
I feel like we're about to get
into a bigger discussion on the family

327
00:28:40,759 --> 00:28:44,519
dynamics. We're going to take a
break here and be right back, yeah,

328
00:28:44,559 --> 00:28:47,599
to kind of jump back into it. I think why he feels so

329
00:28:47,599 --> 00:28:53,519
connected to Kylie is that Kylie is
his sidekick. You know, Kylie is

330
00:28:53,799 --> 00:29:00,079
an arm that can do things on
his behalf. Like they're never doing any

331
00:29:00,079 --> 00:29:06,720
thing together. That's for Kylie primarily
all. He's really agreeable, very almost

332
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,799
like submissive to Fox. Yeah,
you know, utterly submissive, utterly submissive.

333
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:17,720
And yeah, he's a Charles Boyle
to his Jake Peralta. If you

334
00:29:17,759 --> 00:29:23,680
wanted to get into Brooklyn nine nine, he's a Lafu too, He's Yeah,

335
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,599
maybe this is a trend, right
for every not that Jake Paul does

336
00:29:26,599 --> 00:29:32,240
not narcissist, but for everyone like
that, there can be this little like

337
00:29:32,319 --> 00:29:38,839
sidekick, right because Kylie isn't demanding
anything of Fox that he can't give him,

338
00:29:40,319 --> 00:29:44,480
you know. Yeah, And I
think that's what's hard about I think

339
00:29:44,519 --> 00:29:48,240
what's really interesting about his dynamic with
his wife, missus Fox is she does

340
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,759
seem like shut down a little bit. Oh like, yeah, a lot

341
00:29:52,880 --> 00:30:02,319
of it. Yeah she does.
She seems sad truly. Yeah, m

342
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:07,599
she does seem sad. Yeah,
she's definitely withdrawn and said and shut down

343
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:15,039
from pretty much everything. She's having
a partner, kind of having a partner

344
00:30:15,079 --> 00:30:19,240
who is constantly doing what they want
without regard to anything that has to do

345
00:30:19,319 --> 00:30:23,119
with your relationship or with what you
want. I mean the fact that they

346
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,519
would have gotten away with what they
were doing in the opening scene if he

347
00:30:27,559 --> 00:30:32,160
wouldn't have been so interested in Oh
look, it's a Fox trap. And

348
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,279
then he tries in them because he
can't stop himself. They end up getting

349
00:30:34,279 --> 00:30:41,039
caught, which he starts monologuing about
and describing and invalidating her entire point.

350
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,279
Yeah, it's like, no,
it won't get you here, it'll ni

351
00:30:45,359 --> 00:30:51,119
get you if you stand there,
which was based on nothing hubris is what

352
00:30:51,279 --> 00:30:56,400
is based on hubris, which he
has in spades. And yeah, I

353
00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:03,319
think you're right hand Sure, I
think you're right Hannah, though that I

354
00:31:03,319 --> 00:31:06,759
don't know, I'm making a lot
of inferences. I think we kind of

355
00:31:06,759 --> 00:31:10,079
have to with her because we've given
so little about her in the movie.

356
00:31:10,359 --> 00:31:15,480
Ironically, or maybe that's the point, is that she seems sad, she

357
00:31:15,519 --> 00:31:21,440
seems shut down, you know,
she also does seem determined to stay with

358
00:31:21,519 --> 00:31:26,240
him. And this is where I'm
making a jump a little bit like that

359
00:31:26,279 --> 00:31:29,880
she's almost kind of like resigned herself
to the fact that she will be strapped

360
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:36,400
to this nincompoop until he gets them
killed. And I think I've seen that

361
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,000
dynamic when I've worked with couples I
don't know about you, Hannah, where

362
00:31:40,799 --> 00:31:45,799
one person is shut down like that, and then they will say shut down

363
00:31:45,839 --> 00:31:51,119
all the sessions until until every once
in a while they say something wild like

364
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,799
I should have never married you,
which is what she says in like the

365
00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:00,599
last act of this movie. And
there's nothing after that. There's no resolution,

366
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,880
They don't go back to that conversation. It just lays and hangs out

367
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,119
there forever. And then I think
the next thing she says is she's pregnant.

368
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,079
Yeah, it is the next thing
she says. And not only that,

369
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,519
but he doesn't ask, he doesn't
say anything, he doesn't respond,

370
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,039
he doesn't say, oh, my
god, I can't believe that you said

371
00:32:19,079 --> 00:32:23,440
that. He says nothing, He
just lets it lay there. Yeah,

372
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:29,400
and that's so odd. That's so
odd that you wouldn't say something back,

373
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:34,079
like what are you talking about?
Or what does that mean? Or what

374
00:32:34,119 --> 00:32:37,400
does that mean for our future?
What does that mean for the fact that

375
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:42,880
we're we have a child together already? Like nothing, there's there's nothing.

376
00:32:43,039 --> 00:32:46,799
She says that, and he doesn't
say a fucking word. M It almost

377
00:32:46,839 --> 00:32:52,079
ignores it. Yeah, it just
drops it. And yeah, because what

378
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,000
I would have found unsettling if I
was him, what I would have found,

379
00:32:55,359 --> 00:33:00,960
quite honest devastating if I was him, is that she didn't even say

380
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,799
that. Actually there was. It
was an emotional scene, like she was

381
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:07,839
upset with him, but she wasn't
like yelling that at him, like out

382
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:12,599
of like a fervor of anger.
Right, you know, It's like she

383
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,799
said, she was calm as breath. She took a deep breath, and

384
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:20,039
she told you the truth or her
like her secret that she's been hearing for

385
00:33:20,079 --> 00:33:22,559
a while. And I see that
in sessions. I have seen that in

386
00:33:22,599 --> 00:33:27,160
session that I should say, in
which a couple will drop a bomb like

387
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,240
that. Well, one person in
the couple, and a lot of times

388
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:35,640
it was the quieter of the two
and then the other person has no response

389
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:40,279
to it, like blank face.
Very similar actually to this movie. I

390
00:33:40,319 --> 00:33:44,400
wonder if Wes Anderson ever has something
like this happened and that's when we put

391
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:49,079
it in the script. But like
the number of narcissistic parents, yeah,

392
00:33:49,079 --> 00:33:52,839
in his movies. I was thinking
that too, like Royal Tenenbomb and even

393
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:59,119
like Steve Azizu, like it's a
common thread. But like I said,

394
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,759
I just want to point out that's
actually not an uncommon dynamic that I've witnessed

395
00:34:01,759 --> 00:34:07,480
in therapy where I, as the
therapist, have to check my face because

396
00:34:07,519 --> 00:34:12,679
I'm like, I can feel myself
internally gasp when someone says something like that,

397
00:34:13,039 --> 00:34:15,599
and then I have to have the
follow up internal gasp of oh,

398
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:21,119
I seem to be the only one
that's upset by that mic drop, And

399
00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:27,079
it's always happens the last ten session
too. Yes, Well, that idea

400
00:34:27,159 --> 00:34:30,199
that I'm the only one who's having
a reaction to what a big statement that

401
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,320
actually is, yeah, and what
that actually means, and that that can

402
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,800
actually mean that someone is out of
the marriage already. That can mean that

403
00:34:38,639 --> 00:34:44,679
they are or have been actively looking
for ways to get out of the marriage

404
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:50,000
they are looking for I mean,
there's so many different things. And when

405
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,480
it feels like, as the therapist, you're the only one who's weighing,

406
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:59,039
who's feeling the weight of something that
someone has said that really feels off in

407
00:34:59,159 --> 00:35:01,840
terms of sitting in the room with
those two people and realizing that one person

408
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:07,039
does not have is that one of
them is does is not having a response

409
00:35:07,559 --> 00:35:12,000
that makes any sense to this what
this person is saying, or doesn't have

410
00:35:12,079 --> 00:35:16,159
the awareness and in this I mean
with him has no awareness of what the

411
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:24,079
statement actually means. M yeah,
right, he had or worse, they

412
00:35:24,079 --> 00:35:29,239
either don't care or don't believe it
yeah, or don't let it in or

413
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:34,960
their their disorder pushes it away and
just goes whoop. That does not compute,

414
00:35:35,599 --> 00:35:38,519
right exactly, that's a good phrase
for it does not compute or that

415
00:35:38,599 --> 00:35:45,039
didn't happen yeah yeah. And sometimes
our job as a therapist is to verbalize

416
00:35:45,079 --> 00:35:52,840
our reaction responsibly appropriately to that.
So sometimes I've been the one who says,

417
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:57,039
like, you know, I felt
something when that was said that made

418
00:35:57,159 --> 00:36:02,079
me feel anxious or you know,
sad, or that took my breath away,

419
00:36:02,119 --> 00:36:05,159
you know what I mean, like
I'm always Obviously you don't want to

420
00:36:05,159 --> 00:36:07,239
be too dramatic about it because you
don't want your emotions to be that in

421
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:12,519
the room as a therapist. Yeah, but I think it can be helpful

422
00:36:12,559 --> 00:36:20,119
to self disclose in those ways to
bring awareness of how shut down the couple

423
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:25,559
the system has become that they're not
even feeling the emotionality that would be appropriate

424
00:36:25,679 --> 00:36:30,079
to some of the things being said
in session. And I've said declines too,

425
00:36:30,159 --> 00:36:32,920
like I my heart's racing, or
like I'm you know that made me

426
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,920
feel sad, like I took I
even said like I'd hold in a gasp

427
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,800
and then I watched and it didn't
seem like there was any impact happening to

428
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:45,039
two of you. Can we talk
about that? Can we get into that?

429
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:52,400
Yep? Might Sometimes I'll say sometimes
I'll say to a good partner who

430
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,840
says that, I'll say, what
do you mean by that? Tell us

431
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,800
more about that. I want to
hear more about what you're talking about.

432
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,039
I want to hear more about what
that means to you when you say that.

433
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:07,239
Yeah, yeah, and that's what
part of the whole techniques that you

434
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:12,840
can use in couples therapy as is
it's I heard you, Hannah when you

435
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:20,440
said always have that reaction, because
it's your job to unbalance the dynamic.

436
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,400
If you just get sucked into the
dynamic that the couple has, it's not

437
00:37:24,559 --> 00:37:32,079
helpful. It's your job to form
an unbalanced in the situation, to draw

438
00:37:32,079 --> 00:37:38,880
attention to how many things aren't working
for one part of it, and having

439
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:44,039
that kind of reaction that someone may
or may not get from their partner,

440
00:37:44,159 --> 00:37:51,360
especially if there's issues with NPD involved. They might not have the partner might

441
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:57,880
not have had anybody acknowledged their feelings
in quite a long time, and to

442
00:37:58,039 --> 00:38:06,480
have somebody validate that would be extraordinarily
meaningful and powerful to help them feel like

443
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,679
they can escape the gaslighting that is
certainly happening on a day to day,

444
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:16,960
moment to moment basis, and the
chronic invalidation that someone like missus Fox would

445
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:23,400
be getting of. She can say
something that heinous to him and he's just

446
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:30,239
gonna be like yeah, or no
show, no reaction whatsoever. Yeah,

447
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:34,000
Because I think, if I'm remembering
right, that's one of the scenes where

448
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:38,079
they zoom in on his face again
and he just is like like making absolutely

449
00:38:38,079 --> 00:38:43,800
no reaction, stone faced. It's
a very flat emotional part of that scene,

450
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,679
which is why it feels so like
like the air like to me is

451
00:38:46,679 --> 00:38:51,159
the viewer, it's like the air
gets suck out of the room, but

452
00:38:51,199 --> 00:38:57,920
their faces aren't doing that. And
I think why someone like missus Fox would

453
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:02,320
say something that devastating and arguably cruel, right even though she seems like a

454
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:07,400
very understanding, empathetic kind person,
you know, when you see her interacting

455
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:14,159
everybody else. Is when you're in
a dynamic where someone is so insular and

456
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:19,679
so ecocentric and so loud with how
they live, sometimes you feel like the

457
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:24,639
only way you can be heard is
by saying something that cutting, that definitive.

458
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:30,559
It's almost like acting out, but
in a very quiet way. And

459
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,559
if I were to work with them, that would be where my brain would

460
00:39:34,599 --> 00:39:37,719
go with, you know, is
like, why is that the only way

461
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:42,400
we feel like we can be heard
by him is if we say something that

462
00:39:42,519 --> 00:39:47,280
is catastrophic and even then he doesn't
listen, and then we shut down,

463
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,800
and then we just keep on keeping
on. We focus on our kids,

464
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,840
We focus on the household were in, We focus on our paintings, and

465
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:59,440
we try to just keep us going
from one moment to the next, because

466
00:39:59,519 --> 00:40:04,519
nothing defeated is kind of our energy
just defeated. It's yeah, it's and

467
00:40:04,599 --> 00:40:10,920
it's either that or they start gearing
themselves up by just finally letting out the

468
00:40:12,199 --> 00:40:19,400
intense feelings that they have the truth
as a means to see see even when

469
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,000
I tell you the truth, you
don't care, as a means of empowerment

470
00:40:22,079 --> 00:40:29,320
to start giving themselves up to finally
leave. Yeah, I've seen both and

471
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:35,159
you know leaving. What does become
like the motivation to leave too, is

472
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:40,840
when if the parent, like in
Missus Fox's position, starts to notice the

473
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:47,000
impact of mister Fox that parent on
their child, which we do see in

474
00:40:47,039 --> 00:40:52,760
this movie in terms of how Ash
is growing into his sense of self as

475
00:40:52,760 --> 00:41:02,920
a reaction to his father's narcissism.
And so common concept with people who struggle

476
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:07,400
with MPD is that, like we've
kind of been saying, is like everyone

477
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,000
in their life can just become like
an extension of them in their mind.

478
00:41:10,599 --> 00:41:14,679
You know, all roads lead back
to them, all roads lead out from

479
00:41:14,679 --> 00:41:17,599
them, right, And so how
that happens with children and you see this

480
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:21,800
a ton in Royal ten in Bombs, the other Wes Anderson movie, right

481
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:27,239
that maybe we'll do some day down
the road, is you know, you

482
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:31,280
your kids. Their primary role is
how they and how they reflect you,

483
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:39,320
and how they decrease or increase your
status as viewed by other people. And

484
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:44,679
so kind of as you brought up
earlier, Ash, God bless him because

485
00:41:44,679 --> 00:41:50,480
he's my favorite character in this movie. Does not do that for for Fox,

486
00:41:50,599 --> 00:41:53,039
right, for mister Fox. And
we're already seeing at like ten ish,

487
00:41:53,159 --> 00:41:57,280
I think he's like nine or ten, is my guests, and you

488
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,679
can already yeah, sure, like
oh what the yeah, the chemistry lab

489
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:04,559
Actually that's more like middle school,
you're right, well, and the dating,

490
00:42:05,079 --> 00:42:08,679
the interactions with girls and like not
at all like getting it, but

491
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:13,280
wanting to you know, like that's
like a pretty twelve year old kind of

492
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:17,519
thing. Yeah, so he's yeah, run eleven twelve, And how he

493
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:25,079
already is judging himself based on how
he aligns with his father, was father's

494
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:31,480
self image, you know, specifically
wanting so goddamn bad to be an athlete.

495
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:37,119
Yes, yes, he does want
to be a little athlete, and

496
00:42:37,199 --> 00:42:43,239
he is not at least not that
kind right, Like there's lots of sports

497
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:47,639
to play. But when your dad
is exactly like if your parent was just

498
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:52,239
like the best at this particular sport, and you want to be one of

499
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,360
those stories so that you can be
good enough like your dad that you're just

500
00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:02,079
so good at what is it,
smash ball that bat? Kind of right,

501
00:43:02,119 --> 00:43:07,280
it's like they're making fun of cricket. I mean, cricket deserves to

502
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,480
be made fun of because it's ridiculous. Yeah, and I did enjoy their

503
00:43:10,599 --> 00:43:16,199
like making fun of cricket and how
ridiculous it is. That was a that

504
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:22,639
was well done. But the importance
that that has to ash to be seen

505
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,519
in that way, and that's the
only way to be seen. He's going

506
00:43:25,519 --> 00:43:30,480
to keep trying it, even though
it's quite obvious his ability to actualize will

507
00:43:30,519 --> 00:43:36,719
probably come from something else. He's
quite fast, but his abilities at whackbat,

508
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:38,840
as Owen Wilson the Polar Bear makes
quite clear to him, are um,

509
00:43:39,639 --> 00:43:44,760
yeah, not quite man. He's
like, you're improving, We'll put

510
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:46,719
it that yeah, But any coach
that says we'll put it that way,

511
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:54,960
yeah, you are trying and showing
all of the hustle. But uh buddy,

512
00:43:55,800 --> 00:44:00,519
hmm. Yeah, because even in
the moments and missus Fox is trying

513
00:44:00,599 --> 00:44:05,280
to validate Ash and encourage him,
like I think this is the most I've

514
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,400
ever written down like direct quotes when
watching a movie. Is she says there's

515
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:13,719
something kind of fantastic about being different, which is like such a perfect way

516
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,760
for a parent to put that,
And he literally beats like he's almost going

517
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,599
to accept it, and the last
second he pulls back and he goes,

518
00:44:20,639 --> 00:44:22,239
not me, I prefer to be
an athlete, and I'm like no,

519
00:44:23,679 --> 00:44:29,440
And you know, I think if
I was missus Fox, like that stuff

520
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,239
would just keep coming up more and
more, and so then I think it

521
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:38,280
starts to become a conversation of like
do I choose my kid or my spouse?

522
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:44,320
And because Ash is someone like he's, you're already seeing that he's starting

523
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:46,159
to avoid school, Like that's the
very first scene. He doesn't want to

524
00:44:46,159 --> 00:44:51,519
go to school. He seems like
he's getting bullied because he's trying to fit

525
00:44:51,599 --> 00:44:53,280
in in a way that he's not
going to fit in. And other kids

526
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:59,360
can smell try hard energy from like
a mile away, and oh they sure

527
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:06,719
can. Yeah, and the worst
and he and I think what's so sad

528
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:10,360
about that is Ash is really funny. He's weird, but in a way

529
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:14,360
that I love about kids. I
love a weird kid, a kid who

530
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,679
wears a kipe took school, Like
I feel like it's classic that kind of

531
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:22,440
sad, weird kid behavior. And
I mean that with all of the love

532
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:27,559
in my heart. And he's tenacious, like he has all these positive strengths,

533
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:31,599
and the what sucks for a kid
like him in his situation and being

534
00:45:31,679 --> 00:45:37,639
raised by a parent with MPD is
that he can't see any of that because

535
00:45:37,679 --> 00:45:40,920
it's not aligning with the image that
he feels like he needs. Because it's

536
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,760
not even just like I want to
impress my dad, Like, it's not

537
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,280
like that trope of like I just
want to win the score and touchdown so

538
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:52,039
my dad. Like I think what
people don't understand is like for kids like

539
00:45:52,119 --> 00:45:57,519
that gets tied to an essential need, which is validation, love, you

540
00:45:57,599 --> 00:46:01,480
know, very necessary base sick needs
stuff. So it's not even just I

541
00:46:01,519 --> 00:46:06,400
want to please my dad. It's
connected to deep, deep shit, you

542
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,920
know. And I would imagine here, I think something that told me everything

543
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:15,920
I need to know about mister Fox
and Ash isn't the very first scene when

544
00:46:15,559 --> 00:46:20,519
Ash is trying to say something you
know, he's not really saying it well

545
00:46:20,519 --> 00:46:22,039
because he's just trying to get out
of school, which is something to be

546
00:46:22,079 --> 00:46:27,519
curious about if you're a parent.
And he spits on the ground, which

547
00:46:27,519 --> 00:46:30,599
I think, you know, just
kind of like being odd, and his

548
00:46:30,679 --> 00:46:32,880
dad just goes he's different, but
he says it in a way of like

549
00:46:35,119 --> 00:46:38,840
he I won't get him, he's
weird, like like almost like not giving

550
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:44,559
up on him, but you know, not attempting to understand his son,

551
00:46:45,159 --> 00:46:51,400
kind of writing him off as different, with no curiosity about who what that

552
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:55,360
means, and no interest to get
closer to that. You know, it's

553
00:46:55,400 --> 00:47:00,280
like he's figured out who Ashes who
Ash can't be. And that's the long

554
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:05,840
and the short of it. And
so I would imagine that he does not

555
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:08,639
what we kind of said it with
the diving scene, but he does not

556
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:14,199
give Ash attention. He does not
he does not validate Ash for who As

557
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:19,199
actually is. And so how can
ashe not be pissed off, irritable all

558
00:47:19,199 --> 00:47:23,400
the time, probably sad most of
the time, insecure and then you know,

559
00:47:23,559 --> 00:47:28,599
chasing after his dad's affection. Yeah, he can't. He can't because

560
00:47:28,639 --> 00:47:32,079
it is it's tied to safety,
particularly like that that age group, he

561
00:47:32,159 --> 00:47:40,639
hasn't started to really enter his own
identity just yet. He's still quite dependent

562
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:47,079
M. And that I want to
score that winning touchdown to get my dad's

563
00:47:47,119 --> 00:47:52,880
approval would probably emerge in a couple
of years, but not yet M at

564
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:59,119
this phase. Yeah, that had
kind of helpless doping around following your dad,

565
00:47:59,599 --> 00:48:04,159
like trying to tag along and just
be seen and do whatever it takes

566
00:48:04,159 --> 00:48:08,800
to just be seen and noticed.
Is pretty on the nose behavior that you

567
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:17,000
would see from someone with a more
narcissistic type parent that you're constantly going through

568
00:48:17,039 --> 00:48:22,719
life hearing so much about their exploits
that you don't have the opportunity to formulate

569
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:29,000
your own and your own identity because
it's not being encouraged, it's not being

570
00:48:29,039 --> 00:48:37,519
recognized. Everything that mister Fox talks
about is to increase his own adulation of

571
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:43,199
others and the people that he keeps
around him or you know, animals like

572
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:54,800
Kylie are people that validate who he
was in what specific modes he could be

573
00:48:55,079 --> 00:49:00,800
the best in or be that legend. And that does leave a lot of

574
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:05,719
space for him to talk with Ash
about who Ash is or the things Ash

575
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:10,119
likes to do. It can result
in little off handed comments like are you

576
00:49:10,679 --> 00:49:15,840
are you wearing the cape? What's
happening here? Why are you like this?

577
00:49:15,519 --> 00:49:22,519
You know, very just like combative
almost or antagonistic. Yeah, off

578
00:49:22,559 --> 00:49:27,239
putting, like discouraging, and like
the comment that you came up with me.

579
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:31,320
It made me think of a list
of kids books that shouldn't have been

580
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:37,119
made that was passed around the internet
forever ago. And it's like, you're

581
00:49:37,119 --> 00:49:49,480
different and that's bad. Nobody poops, but you you freak right? Um,

582
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:53,840
Yeah, it's it's that very like
because I would assume when mister Fox

583
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:59,119
looks at Ash, he can't find
he can't he can't find himself right,

584
00:49:59,599 --> 00:50:04,039
And so then Ash just gets if
he can't fit into the schema of mister

585
00:50:04,119 --> 00:50:10,320
Fox, then he's not making sense
period, And there's no flexibility to get

586
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:15,800
to know Ash. And all Ash
is going to know is that I'm failing.

587
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:20,360
I'm not quite pulling it off.
I'm trying really hard. And I

588
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:24,280
think what I respect about him,
which I hope will be a protective factor

589
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:28,719
in the long run, is that
he does seem to be having a real

590
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:32,400
push and pull within himself about his
dad. And what I mean by that

591
00:50:32,559 --> 00:50:37,480
is there's these moments when he so
clearly wants his dad's adoration and is trying

592
00:50:37,519 --> 00:50:42,360
so hard, like when he's like
jogging after the coach takes him out of

593
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:45,320
the whack bat scrimmage and he's like
come on, And at the same time,

594
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:49,519
he seems so pissed off at his
dad, you know, like the

595
00:50:49,639 --> 00:50:52,920
energy he gives him during that morning
conversation. At the very beginning, he

596
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,599
doesn't seem psyched to be engaging with
his father, right, he spits on

597
00:50:55,639 --> 00:51:00,360
the ground. It basically has a
real off look on his face. And

598
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:04,199
you know, so are these moments
when he also seems so agitated by his

599
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:08,000
father. And I think that can
be a really confusing feeling that when I

600
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:14,920
work with adults who were raised by
parents who just weren't well equipped to be

601
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:20,960
parents, there's still that internal struggle
inside them are two wolves, if you

602
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,800
will, one of them that wants
to please their parents still and one of

603
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:29,880
them that's so pissed off at their
parents and not being able to really reconcile

604
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:37,599
those two very discrepant experiences, right, and remembering that there just on the

605
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:45,199
family unit that we see is that
everybody is trying to reach actualization. Everybody's

606
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:51,840
trying to be who they are,
but the narcissistic parent is only seeking to

607
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:59,559
be who they are without also trying
to boost who their child is, who

608
00:52:00,079 --> 00:52:06,360
bouses, without trying to provide any
avenues because it doesn't occur to them because

609
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:10,519
they're focused only on their mission.
I mean, I think it's part of

610
00:52:10,519 --> 00:52:15,880
that symptoms that's like interpersonally exploitative behavior, you know, it goes and the

611
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:20,320
lack of empathy. It kind of
goes back to that idea of there it's

612
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:28,760
so hard to understand that there are
other unique individuals with full agency and autonomy

613
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:32,599
and personalities that are in the mix. It's not just you and people who

614
00:52:32,599 --> 00:52:38,119
are so glad to be around you
and to help you right that there is

615
00:52:38,639 --> 00:52:42,679
like which is? Which is?
Can be a comment trait of a lot

616
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:47,039
of cluster b personalag disorders, which
is just struggling to feel the differentiation,

617
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:53,000
appropriate differentiation between ourselves and others right
now. And this is how it comes

618
00:52:53,079 --> 00:52:58,840
up in MPD. And then I
think what I think this movie is just

619
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:06,079
a fantastic sample from such an unlikely
place of how this behavior trickles like it

620
00:53:06,119 --> 00:53:08,679
bleeds into the whole family dam all
the way out to the cousin. You

621
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:15,519
know, a cousin, Christofferson comes
and he just happens, just happens to

622
00:53:15,639 --> 00:53:20,920
be really good at all the stuff
that Ash is not good at, innately

623
00:53:21,599 --> 00:53:24,159
that mister Fox is good at.
And like you said in the beginning,

624
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:30,639
Ben, a very like textbook example
of that is the diving scene, right

625
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:36,800
and then, and when Christofferson does
that good dive, mister Fox perks up.

626
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:43,159
He can identify that because and I
recognizes him, yeah immediately, m

627
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:47,639
Yeah, he really really goes out
of his way to offer praise and recognition

628
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:57,400
and encouragement and identification as someone part
of his family. Yeah, where he

629
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,559
couldn't be bothered before. Yeah,
and then, but it's still but I

630
00:54:00,559 --> 00:54:05,599
think what another good example of that, continue on with that is that doesn't

631
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:13,599
make Christofferson a unique individual to mister
Fox either. Nope. Very shortly after

632
00:54:13,679 --> 00:54:20,519
that, mister Fox starts to almost
immediately view Christofferson's positives as how can this

633
00:54:20,599 --> 00:54:24,119
aid me? How can this person
function me? Even though he's a child,

634
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:30,039
And even though mister Fox very blatantly
tells Ash you can't join you're a

635
00:54:30,119 --> 00:54:37,440
child, he's already invited Christofferson's the
same age, pretty much on the same

636
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:43,760
mission who falls right after Ash and
it's like, I'm here and he doesn't

637
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:47,920
really seem like he even really understands
what he's there for, which is very

638
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:54,719
exploitive behavior putting a kid into a
crime situation, oh absolutely, which you

639
00:54:54,719 --> 00:55:02,000
know can be The kind of things
that people who deal with this in their

640
00:55:02,039 --> 00:55:08,440
family can be exposed to is that
the person with narcissistic won't believe that they

641
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:14,920
can get caught. They won't believe
that bad things will happen to them.

642
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:19,360
Every one of their plans will work
out just the best because it's their plan,

643
00:55:19,519 --> 00:55:23,840
so of course it will work.
We won't consider it critically or weigh

644
00:55:24,079 --> 00:55:30,679
against reality or fact anything that would
disprove that or provide even a chance.

645
00:55:31,159 --> 00:55:36,039
So obviously the kid can come along
and they'll be safe because it's my plan.

646
00:55:36,599 --> 00:55:39,360
And also the kid is you know, awesome, because he's here with

647
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:43,599
me and I've decided he's awesome,
So now he's awesome, and he's awesome,

648
00:55:43,599 --> 00:55:46,480
like how I was awesome and still
I'm awesome, so he'll be awesome.

649
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:52,719
Yeah, And where that becomes its
own problem is that it can be

650
00:55:52,760 --> 00:56:01,000
seductive into a lifestyle that's not appropriate
and then create some really damaging reinforcers.

651
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:07,039
But it also results in the opposite, where we see someone like Ash who

652
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:14,519
isn't sure who their identity is and
doesn't know what to do other than a

653
00:56:14,599 --> 00:56:19,320
mimic things that don't come naturally to
them and try to be good enough in

654
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:24,239
ways that don't they're not good at, which will ever work again. Management

655
00:56:24,639 --> 00:56:30,239
training classes that I've had to take
over the years, they make a good,

656
00:56:31,039 --> 00:56:37,400
clear effort in almost all of the
more professional consultants who come and do

657
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:44,519
this to remind you that stop making
your staff who aren't good at things do

658
00:56:44,559 --> 00:56:49,039
the things they're not good at if
you expect to see good progress. If

659
00:56:49,079 --> 00:56:53,599
you have a staff member who it
naturally appeals to organize stuff and put things

660
00:56:53,639 --> 00:56:59,159
together like a librarian might, let
them do those things. If you have

661
00:56:59,199 --> 00:57:02,400
somebody that likes to sit and nitpick
Excel spreadsheets, let them do that.

662
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:07,840
If you have somebody that is more
socially inclined, let them do those things.

663
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:12,519
And stop making a person who would
rather sit by themselves in the back

664
00:57:12,559 --> 00:57:16,320
corner of an office and talk to
no one about nothing do the social aspect

665
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:19,960
of it. Let them do the
thing they want to do and are good

666
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:22,360
at, and they'll be good at
it. But what we see ash Kitt

667
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:30,119
is nothing encouraging who he is.
So he doesn't know how to be ash

668
00:57:30,159 --> 00:57:34,360
And I think that's the whole point
of seeing. I don't know if they

669
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:37,559
ever do name the girl. Do
they name the girl Fox? The girlfriend?

670
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:42,280
Yeah, Will becomes Christofferson's girlfriend?
Right? If they did, it

671
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:47,360
was very fleeting, right, But
you see that he doesn't know how to

672
00:57:47,559 --> 00:57:54,480
be himself because nobody talks to him
about what he likes. It's all in

673
00:57:54,599 --> 00:58:04,800
reference to how they reinforced Dad's narrative
about Dad. Nobody talks to the fox

674
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,039
about what the fox lie or the
no one talks about him about what he

675
00:58:07,039 --> 00:58:12,440
likes. So he doesn't know how
to talk to other people from a standpoint

676
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:15,800
of confidence. He just doesn't know
what to do in social settings at all.

677
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:20,440
And we had talked off Mike about
does he have neuro is there neurotypical

678
00:58:20,519 --> 00:58:22,800
stuff going on here? And I
just don't think there's enough information, And

679
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:28,039
what we do have, we see
that there's no effort to validate his identity

680
00:58:28,679 --> 00:58:32,519
and provide any room for him to
grow at his age, at his rate,

681
00:58:32,639 --> 00:58:36,519
in his way, which is really
important for a middle school kid,

682
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:42,119
that they be given some opportunity to
establish themself as a unique and different person

683
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:46,559
than those in their family system.
That they're either alike or dislike or to

684
00:58:46,719 --> 00:58:52,280
dislike from those, but they can
have space to grow who they are so

685
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:55,599
that they know how to operate themselves
in social settings where Dad's not around,

686
00:58:55,840 --> 00:59:00,360
like s yeah, because he says
that line later in the movie, or

687
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:06,480
her name's Agnes, looked her up? Because he said, was I roote

688
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:10,079
to Agnes m later in the movie
when she's talking to Christofferson and he basically

689
00:59:10,119 --> 00:59:15,440
tells her buzz off. And but
I think, what's interesting about and this

690
00:59:15,519 --> 00:59:17,880
kys ties to what you were saying, ben Is. As the movie goes

691
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:23,639
along, Ash, I think,
because Christofferson is such a good peer actually

692
00:59:23,679 --> 00:59:30,480
to Ash, he starts to become
more actualized Ash and more confident in what

693
00:59:30,559 --> 00:59:35,280
he's able to do, right because
I'm little right, And I think as

694
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:38,119
he grows and in that I don't
even know, necessarily grows in his own

695
00:59:38,159 --> 00:59:43,360
agency as so much as lets himself
his guard come down a little bit.

696
00:59:43,519 --> 00:59:47,039
With Christofferson, specifically, you do
seem kind of bloom a little bit in

697
00:59:47,079 --> 00:59:52,239
the final act of the movie and
be more cognizant of how am I impacting

698
00:59:52,239 --> 00:59:55,639
all other people feel? How am
I coming off socially? You know?

699
00:59:55,800 --> 01:00:00,079
Am I? Because basically what he's
doing from my perspective to out therapist is

700
01:00:00,519 --> 01:00:07,559
his dad isn't a safe person to
be angry towards because his dad's opinion of

701
01:00:07,639 --> 01:00:14,000
him already feels so scarce in trepidacious, right and like precarious. So when

702
01:00:14,039 --> 01:00:17,719
that happens, you're angeredness doesn't disappear, right, And I think what we

703
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:24,519
see is when Christopherson shows up,
he's kind of a good scapegoat for Ash

704
01:00:24,599 --> 01:00:30,280
to put all these feelings he's having, and also that dynamic of competitiveness,

705
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:37,159
you know, assuming that Ash that
Christofferson has it all figured out because he

706
01:00:37,199 --> 01:00:38,239
can do this, that and the
other. He gets Agnes to like him

707
01:00:38,239 --> 01:00:50,159
immediately when he says like, you're
my lab partner, when yeah, which

708
01:00:50,199 --> 01:00:55,519
sandwich um is I don't know if
I lost not just then, but basically

709
01:00:55,920 --> 01:01:02,440
that he's just kind of coming awake
because realizing Christofferson can be a peer,

710
01:01:02,559 --> 01:01:07,920
can be a confidant and doesn't have
to be competition. I think is such

711
01:01:07,039 --> 01:01:12,639
a moving dynamic because I think what's
also probably really hard for Ashes that he's

712
01:01:12,639 --> 01:01:15,599
an only child for the time being, right, and so he doesn't really

713
01:01:15,679 --> 01:01:23,119
have a like a compatriot, like
a partner with the sibling in how Dad

714
01:01:23,239 --> 01:01:29,280
is being. So he only really
has himself to reflect upon about why Dad

715
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:32,119
treats him like this. You know, like even in Succession, which is

716
01:01:32,119 --> 01:01:37,159
a show about a super narcissistic parent, the siblings kind of have each other

717
01:01:37,199 --> 01:01:39,800
even though they're very antagonist towards each
other, they also do still have each

718
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:44,159
other to kind of be like Dad's
a dick, right, Yeah, Dad

719
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:46,760
is a dick, and he dicked
us over in the following ways. Whereas

720
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:50,880
I think what asked shuffers some and
maybe he just gets that a little bit.

721
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:57,599
Christofferson, is you know that perspective
that he lacks. But remember Dad

722
01:01:57,679 --> 01:02:06,199
scored four touchdowns. Yeah it's yeah, it's a good it's a good comparison.

723
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:13,920
M And seeing the way those two
interact, Uh, yeah, that

724
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:16,719
that's a really good comparison. I
like that. I think that for her

725
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:21,239
those of us who grew up in
the nineties and as soon as Saturday Morning

726
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:27,119
cartoons are over love and Marriage turned
on. Oh god, can you imagine

727
01:02:27,119 --> 01:02:32,280
watching that show Arabic Children as an
adult who does therapy? Now, No,

728
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:37,519
no, no, I haven't gone
back, like um modern family is

729
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:45,639
hard enough. Oh, although,
but they that show is so brilliantly done

730
01:02:45,679 --> 01:02:52,159
that they like stay in the whimsical
pocket and it's a little more um PC

731
01:02:52,559 --> 01:02:55,360
of characters than I feel like,
you get to see a little bit of

732
01:02:55,480 --> 01:03:07,679
like a grown up Bundy and not
have to suffer through like the yeah,

733
01:03:07,679 --> 01:03:15,400
and growing up in Midwestern factory towns
and such like we all kind of did.

734
01:03:15,639 --> 01:03:21,519
Like no, thanks man. One
more thing I just wanted to touch

735
01:03:21,599 --> 01:03:23,880
upon, probably because he's my favorite
before we take another break and go to

736
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:30,320
treatment is you know, when you
do have kids that are competing for the

737
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:37,159
attention of one parental figure, it
does cut down empathy, which you know,

738
01:03:37,199 --> 01:03:38,840
I think what feels so when I'm
watching this is a therapist. What

739
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:44,360
feels so shocking about Ash is how
and they pointed out, like his mom

740
01:03:44,519 --> 01:03:50,599
clocks him every time he does it
is how inconsiderate and insensitive and mean.

741
01:03:50,719 --> 01:04:00,480
Actually he's being towards Christofferson about Christofferson's
dad and about Christofferson's a situation sick.

742
01:04:00,119 --> 01:04:03,880
And one, I think that's part
of being very young and still having a

743
01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:10,559
pretty just not having enough abstract thinking
to kind of go farther with how shitty

744
01:04:10,599 --> 01:04:13,639
that is right, just not have
any emotional intelligence to do that at that

745
01:04:13,719 --> 01:04:17,719
age. And then two, I
think it is part of being like competitive

746
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:24,039
like that is it makes you kind
of ruthless. And if Christofferson already has

747
01:04:24,159 --> 01:04:28,920
so many of the traits that ashe
wants so desperately, then he must he

748
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:33,280
can be he can handle a little
debt here and there by my shittiness,

749
01:04:33,719 --> 01:04:39,880
you know. And why I think
it's so telling of Ash as a product

750
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:44,360
of the environment he's in, is
that when Christofferson does get upset and that

751
01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:47,880
one's seeing any cries, you know, Ash gives as much as he can

752
01:04:48,159 --> 01:04:51,159
in that moment, which is he
does a little parallel play with him,

753
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:57,679
which is I will turn on my
train. We will not talk about what's

754
01:04:57,719 --> 01:05:00,320
going on, but I will turn
on my train and I'll be with you

755
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:04,599
and try to cheer you up using
something that cheers me up. So it

756
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:12,280
is a it is a token of
validation and empathy in that moment, and

757
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:16,840
I think it's as far as ash
is capable of because Christofferson must be such

758
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:25,119
a triggering entity for Ash in that
household that to really fall in love with

759
01:05:25,199 --> 01:05:31,559
Christofferson like everybody else's is too upsetting
for Asho. It's that scarcity mindset,

760
01:05:31,599 --> 01:05:35,320
you know, Christofferson's coming for something
I desperately need. I have to,

761
01:05:36,559 --> 01:05:41,400
I have to get ahead of him. And so I guess that's just part

762
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:43,800
of want to point out because I
think that can happen a lot and sible

763
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:48,159
with siblings too that are raised by
a parent like this, is that they

764
01:05:48,599 --> 01:05:54,280
can't really rely on each other the
way that you want them too because of

765
01:05:54,280 --> 01:05:58,920
that scarcity that can come from what
their parent is providing to them. All

766
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:02,440
Right, anything else I want to
say about narcissism this movie, the family

767
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:05,880
dynamic before we move on to treatment. I just think I really want to

768
01:06:05,920 --> 01:06:11,519
put out there before we move on
that I think it's important to we acknowledge

769
01:06:11,519 --> 01:06:15,960
how difficult it is for children to
grow up in a house like that and

770
01:06:16,719 --> 01:06:23,079
to deal with it on an ongoing
basis. And that and that there is

771
01:06:23,079 --> 01:06:28,760
a difference between parents that have you
know, a degree of narcissism to their

772
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:36,800
personality or high ego, and parents
that can't yeah see the achievements of their

773
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:44,119
children, can't make space for others
can't because of the nature of their disability.

774
01:06:44,159 --> 01:06:45,440
So I don't want everybody to hear, like who had a parent who's

775
01:06:45,679 --> 01:06:49,679
engaged or active in the community or
does things to think that their parent is

776
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:55,280
narcissistic or that other things were more
important than them, even if sometimes it

777
01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:59,119
felt that way, it doesn't always
mean that, but that this is a

778
01:06:59,159 --> 01:07:03,719
good example of how profound, oh
the disorder can be, of how out

779
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:09,639
of touch, yeah, and what
the impact on family members look like.

780
01:07:09,679 --> 01:07:13,079
And I just want to take a
second to acknowledge for anybody who's listening who

781
01:07:13,079 --> 01:07:16,960
may have that it's really hard.
It's really hard, and it probably did

782
01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:20,320
make things really hard for you growing
up, and it probably did make things

783
01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:26,239
harder to connect like you see,
Ashley, because nobody's reinforcing who you are.

784
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:30,880
And that doesn't mean something's wrong with
you, even if somebody diagnosed that.

785
01:07:31,159 --> 01:07:38,360
It's okay to have some recognition that
we are the product of the life

786
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:43,559
that we've lived, and that's not
always a diagnosis. Yeah, I mean

787
01:07:43,639 --> 01:07:46,519
I think that's great to point out. And I've worked with people like adults

788
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:50,960
who were raised by a parent with
a personality disorder like this, and there

789
01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:56,519
can be deep fear that they also
have a diagnosis, which sytems they do,

790
01:07:56,679 --> 01:08:00,039
and my job is to not make
them feel like demon for having it

791
01:08:00,159 --> 01:08:04,360
right. And sometimes when I work
with those people, it's almost like there's

792
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:10,840
so much anxiety. It's like,
um, not self fulfilling prophecy, but

793
01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:15,079
it's like their confirmation bias, Like
they are so anxious that they are like

794
01:08:15,159 --> 01:08:18,720
their parent that they will tell me
how they're like their parent, and then

795
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:23,279
some as my job is to be
like, you know, you were raised

796
01:08:23,319 --> 01:08:27,199
by them, So there's there's a
chance that you have just learned some of

797
01:08:27,239 --> 01:08:30,319
these things, but that's bothering you. But the fact that it's bothering you,

798
01:08:30,319 --> 01:08:32,399
you're bringing it up to me,
you're in my office talking about it.

799
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:36,720
You recognize how it came up in
your parent and how awful that was.

800
01:08:38,359 --> 01:08:43,720
That suggests me that you probably don't
and that you may struggle with behaviors

801
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:46,680
like that because you were taught That's
how you get validation, that's how you

802
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:49,760
get respect, that's how you treat
other people. You know, it's all

803
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:53,800
learned. It's like manners. It's
like those are the manners of your household.

804
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:58,239
Unfortunately, and you if you can
recognize that those not working for you're

805
01:08:58,239 --> 01:09:01,439
already ahead of the game. You're
already farther and your parent ever got And

806
01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:05,880
we can work with that, right. And also it's acknowledging that it's one

807
01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:08,920
of those things that whenever I say
it, and I've said this before in

808
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:13,359
the podcast, is that it's so
deeply personal and also it's not about you

809
01:09:13,399 --> 01:09:16,199
at all, Like the way that
your parent engaged with you had nothing to

810
01:09:16,239 --> 01:09:19,079
do with you as an individual.
You were just the kid that was there

811
01:09:19,079 --> 01:09:25,920
when it happened. And also creating
that separation of you know, the way

812
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:29,520
your parent treated you has nothing to
do with you actually and has everything to

813
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:31,600
do with you, and also nothing
to do with you as an individual in

814
01:09:31,680 --> 01:09:35,439
terms of your value or your personality
or the kind of person you are.

815
01:09:36,319 --> 01:09:40,880
You are I think what feels hard
about it we can both be validating but

816
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:45,560
also so difficult about receiving that message
is acknowledging that you could I could have

817
01:09:45,640 --> 01:09:47,399
changed you out for any other kid. And there's a good chance, you've

818
01:09:47,399 --> 01:09:50,239
been treated exactly the same, and
that hurts too in its own different way,

819
01:09:50,319 --> 01:09:56,680
because then you have to accept that
you weren't special, you weren't unique

820
01:09:56,720 --> 01:10:00,119
to your parent, which is heartwrenching. And if we can get through that

821
01:10:00,199 --> 01:10:03,920
together, then we can get to
the next step, which is now you

822
01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:08,560
have the freedom to be whoever you
want, and my job is to help

823
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:13,439
you get there. And it's totally
unmarried from your parent and their opinion of

824
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:15,560
you and whether you even want them
in your life if they're still in your

825
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:21,640
life at the time you're seeing me, And that's heavy shit that when we

826
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:24,840
get to treatment, I'm going to
talk about ash, but I don't think

827
01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:29,439
he's there yet at eleven to do
that kind of work, that's like next

828
01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:33,039
level cerebral shit. To do that
is a kid you don't get because as

829
01:10:33,039 --> 01:10:36,960
a kid, you're just want your
parent to love you and to think you're

830
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:43,399
the best, and you can't really
separate their autonomy and their choices. You

831
01:10:43,439 --> 01:10:47,960
can if you're pretty mature at that
age. Emotionally, it's still very difficult

832
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:54,119
though too, like almost impossible in
my experience as a child therapist. But

833
01:10:54,159 --> 01:10:58,439
we will take a break here and
we'll be right back with treatment. So

834
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:00,039
I guess that's in the full of
conversation. I could keep going since I

835
01:11:00,119 --> 01:11:03,520
was already kind of going there anyway, and that if I was to work

836
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:06,479
with kid like Ash, and I've
worked with many kids like Ash, actually

837
01:11:08,520 --> 01:11:12,920
is one is I think where I
would start with him. I think he'd

838
01:11:12,920 --> 01:11:15,880
come into my office because of the
school stuff. He's not going to class

839
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:18,720
or he's getting into fights. He
seems like a kid who would fight back

840
01:11:18,760 --> 01:11:24,640
potentially at some point, and then
he'd get I have to go to therapy

841
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:28,640
because he was as a consequence of
school, right, or because he wasn't

842
01:11:28,640 --> 01:11:31,600
going to school or being a conduct
kid being a behavioral issue, right.

843
01:11:32,399 --> 01:11:35,960
And I love kids like that.
I love working with kids like that.

844
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:41,840
I feel like I respect their fire
in them and that they fight back right

845
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:45,560
like they're having a hard time.
And so with him, I think one

846
01:11:45,760 --> 01:11:50,680
he'd be a kid where I would
do a lot of shooting the shit playing

847
01:11:51,079 --> 01:11:57,399
to get age appropriate, like stuff
like let's go play whack bat if you

848
01:11:57,399 --> 01:12:00,279
can play with two people, I
don't know if that's possible, or like

849
01:12:00,319 --> 01:12:02,600
swing the whack like I will throw
the whack, like the acorn at each

850
01:12:02,600 --> 01:12:06,800
other, and we'll take turns like
you know, hitting it. We'll go

851
01:12:06,880 --> 01:12:12,520
on walks together, We'll like,
we'll chit chat and get to know each

852
01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:17,520
other while we do physical stuff together, while we do things together. One

853
01:12:17,640 --> 01:12:23,279
because he seems like a kid that
energetically might need that, you know what

854
01:12:23,359 --> 01:12:27,479
I mean, like just needs space
to kind of move and not be confined

855
01:12:27,479 --> 01:12:30,359
in my office. And then I
think when you do that with kids,

856
01:12:30,399 --> 01:12:35,079
it gives them a chance to think
about therapy differently. The therapy is not

857
01:12:35,119 --> 01:12:39,600
just like sitting across from an adult
awkwardly staring at each other and like telling

858
01:12:39,640 --> 01:12:43,800
all your secrets. That it can
be hanging out kind of and that I

859
01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:46,439
am a because we Also what I'm
doing in those moments is I'm demonstrating to

860
01:12:46,479 --> 01:12:49,920
him how interested I am in him, that, you know, like I

861
01:12:49,960 --> 01:12:53,640
want to do this stuff with you
and I want to get to know you.

862
01:12:54,319 --> 01:12:59,319
And also, when I've worked with
kids like this, they can be

863
01:12:59,439 --> 01:13:02,399
very very defensive of their parents.
So if I came and swing in and

864
01:13:02,439 --> 01:13:05,079
I was like, your dad sounds
like a dick, or like you,

865
01:13:05,399 --> 01:13:10,000
or even just saying something much inappropriate, which is you know, it sounds

866
01:13:10,039 --> 01:13:14,920
like your dad maybe isn't really showing
you that he loves you, or it

867
01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:16,840
sounds like your dad kind of can
be a jerk sometimes. Huh. I

868
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:20,880
could see a kid like ash if
I did that too early, tell me

869
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:24,840
to go fuck myself. He would
do the spitting in my office and say

870
01:13:24,840 --> 01:13:28,960
I'm never going back there again.
She's you know, what was mean about

871
01:13:28,960 --> 01:13:33,000
my dad, Like, because he's
still bought into this idea that his dad

872
01:13:33,119 --> 01:13:36,800
is the best, right, yeah, and that he just needs to figure

873
01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:41,199
out there's something wrong with him,
right, and he needs to figure out

874
01:13:41,319 --> 01:13:43,920
what that is, and then he
can be the best too and then be

875
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:46,239
pleasing to his father. Right.
So I would have to be very careful

876
01:13:47,359 --> 01:13:53,920
about how I talked about his dad, and that I was very neutral or

877
01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:58,319
even like positive about his dad to
certain degrees, right, I wouldn't want

878
01:13:58,319 --> 01:14:03,279
to like fully reinforce the dynamic.
But you know, I think that's I

879
01:14:03,359 --> 01:14:06,560
think I've talked about this before.
But you know, as a child therapist,

880
01:14:08,359 --> 01:14:10,640
there can be a lot or even
a therapist in journal, that can

881
01:14:10,720 --> 01:14:15,560
be a lot of um pressure put
on therapists to like talk about the big

882
01:14:15,600 --> 01:14:18,960
issue immediately, and if you're ignoring
it, then you're then you're delaying progress.

883
01:14:19,560 --> 01:14:24,520
And I think he's a good example
if I would probably see immediately what

884
01:14:24,560 --> 01:14:28,399
the problem, the quote unquote problem
was, right, yeah, the way

885
01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:33,239
he is, And I might not
approach that for months because if I push

886
01:14:33,279 --> 01:14:39,920
it, it'll blow up and I
and I would be my fault as a

887
01:14:39,960 --> 01:14:45,119
therapist. So it would have to
be something where maybe eventually he says something

888
01:14:45,159 --> 01:14:49,399
offhanded about his dad, you know, in a disparaging way, and then

889
01:14:49,439 --> 01:14:55,960
I would just practice very tentative curiosity
about that. Oh really, huh,

890
01:14:56,000 --> 01:14:59,600
that's weird. I might even feign
like confusion, you know what I mean

891
01:14:59,720 --> 01:15:02,079
to him to say more. You
know, it's kind of like you're trying

892
01:15:02,119 --> 01:15:06,279
to like cool out a little bit, you know. And and he'd be

893
01:15:06,319 --> 01:15:11,600
a kid that I would be very
careful, would be very careful about what

894
01:15:11,680 --> 01:15:15,159
he brought up, that I wouldn't
jump on too hard because he feels skittish,

895
01:15:15,239 --> 01:15:18,600
you know, like he'd be skinnish
about me about treatment for a while.

896
01:15:19,279 --> 01:15:21,479
And so I think the price,
I think the work I would do

897
01:15:21,520 --> 01:15:26,600
with him for a while would be, you know, get him him to

898
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:30,279
acknowledge his feelings, getting him comfortable
talking about his feelings to me about things

899
01:15:30,319 --> 01:15:32,439
that maybe aren't a big deal,
like I would talk about like you know,

900
01:15:32,560 --> 01:15:39,039
Christofferson School, agnes like chemistry class, the bullies like very more surface

901
01:15:39,119 --> 01:15:44,479
level ish topics, and let's get
comfortable talking about our feelings in regards to

902
01:15:44,520 --> 01:15:48,439
that problem, solving around that,
cloping skills in regards to that. And

903
01:15:48,479 --> 01:15:54,319
then eventually, hopefully when he learns
to trust me and that I'm not going

904
01:15:54,359 --> 01:15:58,680
to be a bad guy in his
life, that maybe eventually weaken. And

905
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:00,640
also if I stay with him for
a while, he'll get older as I

906
01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:03,920
work with him, right and so
eventually we'll hopefully get to the time where

907
01:16:03,920 --> 01:16:08,239
we can really talk about his dad. And even then, like I said,

908
01:16:08,239 --> 01:16:12,000
you have to put it careful,
and I would be very like interesting,

909
01:16:12,600 --> 01:16:15,920
huh, And then it would grow
from there. And then this would

910
01:16:15,960 --> 01:16:19,279
also be something where maybe we could
figure out some stuff right now, feelings

911
01:16:19,279 --> 01:16:24,640
and identification, coping skills, building
him up his confidence. You know,

912
01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:26,960
what are stuff that you like?
What stuff you're good at? I would

913
01:16:27,039 --> 01:16:30,039
encourage him in that way and maybe
get his mom into that loop too,

914
01:16:30,960 --> 01:16:34,800
and then it probably would be something
where later in his life he can build

915
01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:39,880
on those concepts with another therapist once
he's old enough to really do the deep

916
01:16:39,920 --> 01:16:45,079
process work more than like the psychoanalytical
psychodynamic work of the impact that his dad

917
01:16:45,079 --> 01:16:48,439
has had on his identity, on
his relationship to others, you know,

918
01:16:48,479 --> 01:16:51,000
because it's going to be interesting once
he gets old enough to date date,

919
01:16:51,279 --> 01:16:56,319
you know, it's going to be
an evolving situation for Ash. And so

920
01:16:56,600 --> 01:16:59,000
the point I'm making is you got
to meet him where he's at, and

921
01:16:59,000 --> 01:17:01,840
that understand that at first when it
comes to parents, stuff like kids can

922
01:17:01,880 --> 01:17:06,720
only really wrap their heads around so
much, and so like I can see

923
01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:10,680
what's going on, but he might
not be able to see it for a

924
01:17:10,720 --> 01:17:14,239
long time, and that's okay.
And I don't have to hit on that

925
01:17:14,880 --> 01:17:21,760
hard or at all even that much
for him to progress and to do better

926
01:17:23,359 --> 01:17:27,640
prognostically. So and I would just
love like he's the kind of kid that

927
01:17:27,720 --> 01:17:30,640
I would probably make me laugh,
and I would have to watch it and

928
01:17:30,680 --> 01:17:36,399
make sure I wasn't laughing at the
wrong things, because like energy would his

929
01:17:36,479 --> 01:17:39,800
sass would really crack me up.
I wor if a lot of kids that

930
01:17:39,840 --> 01:17:43,239
are very sassy like him, and
I had to really like watch my face

931
01:17:43,800 --> 01:17:49,760
so that I wouldn't encourage conducting behaviors, but it's funny sometimes, all right,

932
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:54,439
So that's what I would do.
I'll go next here. I would

933
01:17:55,279 --> 01:18:01,399
very much want to work with missus
Fox in this environment. And I think

934
01:18:02,199 --> 01:18:08,720
why I pick her is because she
feels like the person who's probably or you

935
01:18:08,760 --> 01:18:15,760
know, animal, who's most in
need of a therapist, most in need

936
01:18:15,880 --> 01:18:23,000
of space to be created, for
her to have an identity, for her

937
01:18:23,119 --> 01:18:27,119
to have feelings, for her to
have thoughts, and for her to have

938
01:18:27,199 --> 01:18:32,319
a place where she can work out
some really important coping skills for dealing with

939
01:18:33,119 --> 01:18:40,760
someone in her life, like mister
Fox, because now he's re ingratiated himself

940
01:18:40,800 --> 01:18:45,239
as a folk hero. And yeah, you know, I don't want to

941
01:18:45,279 --> 01:18:48,880
be cynical here, but I'm going
to be anyway, and I'm very tired

942
01:18:49,399 --> 01:18:54,520
if I'm more cynical than usual.
Just will put that in context here.

943
01:18:54,560 --> 01:19:00,000
But he's likely to repeat his story
again. He's likely going to get bored

944
01:19:00,600 --> 01:19:06,600
with having the lack of challenge,
the lack of an antagonist that he already

945
01:19:06,640 --> 01:19:11,760
solved the problem. There's a grocery
store that has all their food so they

946
01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:15,560
can just live and some of the
clues to that that he did not make

947
01:19:15,600 --> 01:19:20,640
a shift whatsoever. Is he talks
about how these people are the most or

948
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:27,840
these foxes right are the most important
to him in that grocery store speech he

949
01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:34,520
makes. But yet again it's really
kind of about him, not about their

950
01:19:34,600 --> 01:19:40,960
family or the fact that they're about
to add another one. He doesn't acknowledge

951
01:19:40,960 --> 01:19:46,560
his wife at all, And I
suspect he's going to get bored with having

952
01:19:46,600 --> 01:19:50,199
all of his problems solvable and laid
out in front of him, And he's

953
01:19:50,319 --> 01:19:58,119
probably going to get bored with living
in a communal environment with every other animal

954
01:19:58,159 --> 01:20:01,319
in that sewer and want something more
and want to be seen as more,

955
01:20:01,359 --> 01:20:04,359
and want to feel like he's a
folk hero. So without any big people

956
01:20:04,359 --> 01:20:09,199
are eventually going to get bored of
adulating him for their day to day and

957
01:20:09,279 --> 01:20:14,079
that's likely going to get old again. So his wife, Missus Fox,

958
01:20:14,079 --> 01:20:17,359
who now we know feels like she
should not have married him, is going

959
01:20:17,439 --> 01:20:24,039
to need some support to figure out
how she's going to manage her life as

960
01:20:24,039 --> 01:20:28,640
she's about to go through another pregnancy
and have a child. And he's going

961
01:20:28,720 --> 01:20:34,079
to be needing to be safe while
these farmers still very much want to kill

962
01:20:34,159 --> 01:20:41,680
him and them, and they're gonna
start figuring out sooner or later that their

963
01:20:42,239 --> 01:20:47,279
stores being rated by a bunch of
animals. This utopian vision that they've created

964
01:20:47,439 --> 01:20:51,720
is not going to last very long. And if he's unable to change,

965
01:20:51,760 --> 01:20:56,960
she's going to need a lot of
support figuring out what she wants to do

966
01:20:57,079 --> 01:21:00,760
and how she wants to manage it, whether it's stay or go, or

967
01:21:00,119 --> 01:21:05,000
communicate with him about what she needs
and how she gets some support and some

968
01:21:05,079 --> 01:21:12,039
ability to individuate and actualize into whoever
she needs to be, because she hasn't

969
01:21:12,079 --> 01:21:15,880
even had a chance to do that, and she's obviously incredibly gifted, but

970
01:21:16,319 --> 01:21:23,760
her role in this big heist was
relegated to you draw the map. Yeah,

971
01:21:23,920 --> 01:21:26,600
I could see for you working with
her. Ben. The more we

972
01:21:26,600 --> 01:21:30,079
think about this movie, the more
she seems really fascinating to me, Like

973
01:21:30,159 --> 01:21:35,000
her internal world is like the art
she does make is like lightning striking the

974
01:21:35,079 --> 01:21:38,720
area that they live in. Like
I feel like you could have a field

975
01:21:38,800 --> 01:21:43,439
day with her in terms of her
arts and talking about her art, And

976
01:21:43,640 --> 01:21:46,760
I absolutely would. And I work
with a couple of art therapists now and

977
01:21:46,880 --> 01:21:53,439
would absolutely be tapping them in or
a good friend Rachel Harrison, who joined

978
01:21:53,560 --> 01:22:00,000
us for Gone Girl, about these
kinds of things in the imagery. But

979
01:22:00,319 --> 01:22:05,239
you know, just in my advanced
interest in narrative art, you know,

980
01:22:05,319 --> 01:22:09,159
since we you know, all three
sit here and do this podcast together and

981
01:22:09,199 --> 01:22:13,760
share that interest, right, it's
how we be too deep in stuff and

982
01:22:13,800 --> 01:22:16,239
blow it up. Well, because
it's real. That's art imitates life.

983
01:22:16,920 --> 01:22:21,000
So yeah, it's art. And
if her art is imagining, like what's

984
01:22:21,000 --> 01:22:27,119
a lightning bolt that they could strike, we're seeing representation of two things that

985
01:22:27,159 --> 01:22:31,880
are important. She's feeling internal chaos
that even on this you know beautiful I'm

986
01:22:32,039 --> 01:22:35,039
just gonna assume it's a fall day
because everything's kind of fall colored. Yeah,

987
01:22:35,199 --> 01:22:41,560
that this fall in England there,
everything is kind of cool in the

988
01:22:41,600 --> 01:22:48,359
countryside. And the way she sees
it is a constant thunderstorm where everything is

989
01:22:49,159 --> 01:22:53,800
gray and dark, and that is
not the aesthetic represented at all at any

990
01:22:53,800 --> 01:22:57,199
other time. Just the way she
sees it, that's a pretty good indicator

991
01:22:57,279 --> 01:23:00,640
that somebody's not feeling okay where they
are, and that lightning strike could be

992
01:23:00,640 --> 01:23:08,039
waiting for that one chance to get
out and getting pregnant again. Boom,

993
01:23:08,119 --> 01:23:12,720
yeah, yeah, because I think
a point we haven't mentioned yet maybe we're

994
01:23:12,720 --> 01:23:15,399
going to bring it a pana is
that both times she's pregnant, it seems

995
01:23:15,399 --> 01:23:21,640
like she waits a substantial amount of
time before telling mister Fox that she's pregnant,

996
01:23:23,000 --> 01:23:26,520
and even in the very beginning of
the movie she lies and tells him

997
01:23:26,560 --> 01:23:30,680
that she just has the stomach flu
or a stomaic bug. And so like,

998
01:23:30,399 --> 01:23:32,800
I would love to like as way
to say I feel fascinated by her

999
01:23:32,840 --> 01:23:35,640
the more we talk about this,
like I would want to talk about that

1000
01:23:35,680 --> 01:23:41,239
with her for like four sessions,
if not more, Yep, many more.

1001
01:23:41,279 --> 01:23:45,840
She would need ongoing support for a
long time because what we can't do

1002
01:23:45,920 --> 01:23:50,199
is decide for her what she wants
to do. Yeah, and many people

1003
01:23:50,359 --> 01:23:56,640
decide not to leave and not saying
that you have to, but there needs

1004
01:23:56,640 --> 01:24:02,359
to be some significant restrategizing, rebalance, seeing and figuring out how she carves

1005
01:24:02,359 --> 01:24:08,039
out time for her own existence and
makes him get on board with it by

1006
01:24:08,159 --> 01:24:14,239
setting boundaries. So my therapy with
her would be all around boundary setting,

1007
01:24:14,640 --> 01:24:19,000
encouragement, support, and self actualization
rather than dictating, because I can't dictate

1008
01:24:19,039 --> 01:24:25,520
for her what she's going to choose
what she wants to choose, and it's

1009
01:24:25,560 --> 01:24:30,119
inappropriate for therapists to do that,
even if it seems like every bit of

1010
01:24:30,199 --> 01:24:32,600
media it's like get rid of these
narcissists in your life, Like, well,

1011
01:24:32,640 --> 01:24:36,680
hold on, we don't get to
choose that for the client. If

1012
01:24:36,680 --> 01:24:40,239
the client wants that, okay,
let's follow that path wherever it goes.

1013
01:24:40,279 --> 01:24:43,920
But we don't know where she's at, so we have to create space for

1014
01:24:43,960 --> 01:24:46,920
her to be able to decide what's
going to be right for her and then

1015
01:24:47,039 --> 01:24:53,680
help her enact whatever plan it is
in the best way that we can to

1016
01:24:53,760 --> 01:24:59,199
help her feel like her needs are
going to get met somehow. So that's

1017
01:24:59,359 --> 01:25:01,880
why I would pick her. I
think she needs an ally and an advocate

1018
01:25:01,920 --> 01:25:06,880
in a space, and I think
that's all I have to say about that,

1019
01:25:09,720 --> 01:25:14,439
all right, Hannah. Okay,
So I was thinking about what it

1020
01:25:14,439 --> 01:25:17,039
would be like to be to do
a couple's therapy with mister Fox and Missus

1021
01:25:17,079 --> 01:25:24,359
Fox, and I think Ben's made
it pretty clear that Missus Fox would need

1022
01:25:24,399 --> 01:25:30,680
her own individual therapy, no doubt, and would probably also would be suggested

1023
01:25:30,720 --> 01:25:36,039
for him needing his own individual therapy. But I think what would be what

1024
01:25:36,159 --> 01:25:41,359
makes me think about all of this
is how important it is, and I

1025
01:25:41,399 --> 01:25:44,079
know I talk about this a lot
on the podcast, but how important it

1026
01:25:44,159 --> 01:25:48,359
is to assess the relationship in a
couple of different ways when you're doing an

1027
01:25:48,359 --> 01:25:54,920
intake with a couple, And so
one way would be initially would be seeing

1028
01:25:54,920 --> 01:25:59,680
them together. I would see them
together, see how they interact with each

1029
01:25:59,680 --> 01:26:02,840
other, and from all the things
that we've already seen, we kind of

1030
01:26:02,880 --> 01:26:06,640
see that he ignores her, We
kind of see that they're not engaged with

1031
01:26:06,680 --> 01:26:12,319
each other, or that he certainly
is not engaging with her, I would

1032
01:26:12,399 --> 01:26:17,680
imagine there's some stonewalling going on.
I would imagine that there would be This

1033
01:26:17,720 --> 01:26:20,640
would be a couple that would come
in and sit down and not look at

1034
01:26:20,680 --> 01:26:24,920
each other. They would talk at
you about each other. They would talk

1035
01:26:24,960 --> 01:26:29,399
at me about each other as if
the other person wasn't there. And so

1036
01:26:29,600 --> 01:26:33,079
that would be one pretty big red
flag of whether or not this relationship,

1037
01:26:33,119 --> 01:26:36,279
whether or not I can do the
work I need to do with them with

1038
01:26:36,399 --> 01:26:43,640
the relationship. So then the second
part of doing this the intake with the

1039
01:26:43,680 --> 01:26:47,159
couple, is where I see them
each individually. And this would be one

1040
01:26:47,199 --> 01:26:50,960
of those times where I would not
only be trying to get a lot of

1041
01:26:51,000 --> 01:26:55,439
information about how they grew up,
what they're growing up was like, what

1042
01:26:55,520 --> 01:27:00,039
they saw relationships look like, what
they're bringing to their relationship, but also

1043
01:27:00,640 --> 01:27:06,199
be able to check in with them
about how invested are they in doing the

1044
01:27:06,239 --> 01:27:12,159
work that we have to do.
And I think that I think that he

1045
01:27:12,199 --> 01:27:15,079
would just lie to my face,
to be perfectly honest, I think that

1046
01:27:15,159 --> 01:27:18,720
he would say that he was there
because he wanted to have a better relationship

1047
01:27:18,760 --> 01:27:23,079
with his wife, and I think
that he would be totally full of shit,

1048
01:27:25,760 --> 01:27:29,880
and so that's how I would see
him kind of reacting. I would

1049
01:27:29,880 --> 01:27:31,560
see him really saying, well,
my wife really wanted to do this for

1050
01:27:31,720 --> 01:27:35,960
having our second child, blah blah
blah. He would really want to say.

1051
01:27:36,479 --> 01:27:42,199
I think he would know the things
to say to me, and I

1052
01:27:42,239 --> 01:27:45,880
think when I met with her,
I would be able to see how disengaged

1053
01:27:45,960 --> 01:27:50,039
she really is and how I don't
know that I would after the kind of

1054
01:27:50,079 --> 01:27:53,520
intake that I feel like I would
have with them, not only as a

1055
01:27:53,560 --> 01:27:57,279
couple but also individually, I don't
know that I would recommend them to continue

1056
01:27:57,319 --> 01:28:01,880
to work with me, because I
think that too much individual work would need

1057
01:28:01,920 --> 01:28:06,399
to be done. And also I
don't know that once that individual work is

1058
01:28:06,439 --> 01:28:14,840
done that they would be together.
Yeah, because I think it, Yeah,

1059
01:28:15,199 --> 01:28:17,279
I mean even just based on what
Ben said, what Ben was talking

1060
01:28:17,279 --> 01:28:21,840
about in terms of missus Fox,
like, it just really feels like she

1061
01:28:23,279 --> 01:28:26,359
this would be one of those instances
where one person comes in and says,

1062
01:28:26,479 --> 01:28:29,239
yeah, that they're they're willing to
do the work, like he says that,

1063
01:28:29,560 --> 01:28:33,159
but then she comes in and she's
like a friend told me to see

1064
01:28:33,159 --> 01:28:38,359
a therapist. I don't really know
what I'm doing here. I feel like

1065
01:28:38,399 --> 01:28:42,720
it was a really big mistake to
maybe married to him. I feel like

1066
01:28:42,800 --> 01:28:45,239
we're having a second child, and
I feel like we should just have the

1067
01:28:45,319 --> 01:28:46,960
second child. Like there might be
a lot of I mean, who knows,

1068
01:28:47,000 --> 01:28:49,399
Like I'm just of course making up
all this stuff of what I think

1069
01:28:49,399 --> 01:28:54,840
she might say, but who knows
what she might be coming in and being

1070
01:28:54,880 --> 01:28:57,800
like, I'm totally not interested in
working on this at all. But we

1071
01:28:57,880 --> 01:29:01,079
thought that this would help, and
we thought that this could do something.

1072
01:29:01,760 --> 01:29:05,119
And they also, I would imagine
they also would be a couple who would

1073
01:29:05,119 --> 01:29:09,760
come in at the last minute and
really want me to be the one to

1074
01:29:09,800 --> 01:29:15,199
tell them that they can't be together, versus them coming to their own conclusion

1075
01:29:15,279 --> 01:29:20,039
of that in themselves. I also
feel like with mister Fox, he would

1076
01:29:20,119 --> 01:29:26,000
really be pushing for a solution to
things. He would be very solution focused

1077
01:29:26,680 --> 01:29:29,520
about, well, what's going to
work, what's going to change, what

1078
01:29:29,560 --> 01:29:33,159
are we going to do? And
I and that's really not how couples work

1079
01:29:33,640 --> 01:29:42,159
works. We do a lot more
of teaching them how to communicate with each

1080
01:29:42,159 --> 01:29:46,680
other, understanding each other, understanding
where the other person is coming from,

1081
01:29:47,119 --> 01:29:53,159
and that once we figure out some
of those things, then sometimes solution comes

1082
01:29:53,159 --> 01:29:56,039
to other problems. But a lot
of times it's really just figuring out how

1083
01:29:56,039 --> 01:30:00,199
to communicate with each other. And
since their communication is so stifled fold because

1084
01:30:00,399 --> 01:30:05,079
of his MPD, it would be
really hard for that to all of a

1085
01:30:05,079 --> 01:30:13,760
sudden be something that changes without a
lot of individual work. Yeah, and

1086
01:30:13,840 --> 01:30:16,880
so I so I think that that's
what I would want to do, and

1087
01:30:17,079 --> 01:30:23,039
that I would and that if I
so, let's say they've both done individual

1088
01:30:23,039 --> 01:30:27,920
work and they come in and I
would still say that it would be hard

1089
01:30:28,399 --> 01:30:32,000
because he would have to really be
focused on the relationship and she would have

1090
01:30:32,079 --> 01:30:35,680
to be She would have to want
to engage in a relationship in a completely

1091
01:30:35,680 --> 01:30:40,319
different way because the way that their
relationship has been engaged, the way that

1092
01:30:40,319 --> 01:30:45,960
they've both been engaging in it is
not sustainable in any kind of way unless

1093
01:30:45,039 --> 01:30:49,920
there's absolutely no status quo change for
either of them. But having a new

1094
01:30:50,079 --> 01:30:56,239
pop is going to provide that status
quo change. Yeah. Yeah, I

1095
01:30:56,279 --> 01:30:59,520
think a big hurdle you're gonna you
would have to deal with, Hannah is

1096
01:31:00,079 --> 01:31:02,319
and we see this in the movie
where he is like, well, I'm

1097
01:31:02,359 --> 01:31:06,119
a wild animal. This is who
I am. Like you need to get

1098
01:31:06,159 --> 01:31:12,600
on board if this is gonna work, and which is yeah, which is

1099
01:31:12,720 --> 01:31:16,000
very much this energy of like I
am who I am, and why do

1100
01:31:16,039 --> 01:31:18,880
you want to change me? Yeah? And why do I have to change

1101
01:31:18,880 --> 01:31:23,960
for the relationship go ahead? It's
unloving to ask me to change, you

1102
01:31:24,000 --> 01:31:27,199
know how I was gonna got married
and now you want to change the rules.

1103
01:31:28,119 --> 01:31:31,199
And that's really difficult cause I think
what he's obviously struggled with this movie,

1104
01:31:31,239 --> 01:31:35,359
and what I think would trickle down
into real life work is the level

1105
01:31:35,399 --> 01:31:43,920
of accountability, an ownership, like
radical ownership that you have to take when

1106
01:31:44,000 --> 01:31:49,760
you do collaborative therapy is so it's
an ego death, really, and it's

1107
01:31:49,800 --> 01:31:55,199
so it can be so triggering if
you are just not able to do that.

1108
01:31:55,920 --> 01:31:59,840
And in this movie he very he
says I'm sorry to ask, but

1109
01:32:00,000 --> 01:32:02,680
really doesn't take accountability for much,
and when stuff happens, he's still very

1110
01:32:02,760 --> 01:32:05,479
much in that victim mentality. I
wrote I couldn't. I didn't write that

1111
01:32:05,600 --> 01:32:08,680
the quote, but like when he
gets his tail shut off, he's very

1112
01:32:08,720 --> 01:32:12,199
like, I can't believe this is
happening to me. And it's like,

1113
01:32:12,359 --> 01:32:16,520
Babe, you did this to us, So I wouldn't. I wouldn't be

1114
01:32:16,640 --> 01:32:19,960
jealous of you, Hannah for working
on them as a couple of therapists.

1115
01:32:20,479 --> 01:32:26,159
Yeah, all right, we'll take
our final break here and then do finals.

1116
01:32:26,640 --> 01:32:29,800
All right, Ben, have you
ever seen this movie before? I

1117
01:32:29,880 --> 01:32:32,640
have not. I'm gonna have you
go first. Then okay, I will

1118
01:32:32,680 --> 01:32:40,439
go first. I really liked this
one. I don't always like Wes Anderson

1119
01:32:40,520 --> 01:32:43,640
movies. Some of them annoy the
shit out of me. Um, this

1120
01:32:43,680 --> 01:32:49,840
one I liked, and I really
appreciated the humor of it and the way

1121
01:32:49,880 --> 01:32:58,239
they would work very adult things into
a child's story, and that when Sanderson

1122
01:32:58,319 --> 01:33:04,039
can't help himself and to paint stories
of like rampant narcissistic parents and adults who

1123
01:33:04,039 --> 01:33:10,640
are being painted in their true lights
through the eyes of children, and how

1124
01:33:10,640 --> 01:33:14,840
it impacts the children. I think
he's very good at that, and children

1125
01:33:14,840 --> 01:33:20,880
are frequently told much more honestly,
I think in his stories than a lot

1126
01:33:20,880 --> 01:33:25,079
of other directors ever do so I
you do. Despite this, some of

1127
01:33:25,079 --> 01:33:28,560
his movies I don't enjoy. It's
I think it's probably largely because I watched

1128
01:33:29,000 --> 01:33:31,479
Life Aquatic first and it was totally
different than I was expecting it to being,

1129
01:33:31,640 --> 01:33:34,720
just like upset me at how dry
it was, and like this is

1130
01:33:35,159 --> 01:33:42,399
I thought this feel for it.
I could not but it. I might

1131
01:33:42,439 --> 01:33:45,560
be willing to revisit that later.
But I think this one is really good.

1132
01:33:45,640 --> 01:33:51,319
I think it's a It's an interesting
example. I think of how important

1133
01:33:51,359 --> 01:33:56,119
it is to keep in mind what
kind of a parent a child has before

1134
01:33:56,199 --> 01:34:00,119
you diagnose them with anything, and
what kind of life they live, because

1135
01:34:00,119 --> 01:34:04,920
it'd be very unsurprising for someone to
take a look at someone like Ash and

1136
01:34:04,960 --> 01:34:09,159
be like, oh, well,
he doesn't get social interactions. Well,

1137
01:34:09,199 --> 01:34:12,600
he makes weird eye contact, he
has limited range of interest, and he

1138
01:34:12,640 --> 01:34:16,760
only sort of gets it he's probably
on the spectrum, and I would flat

1139
01:34:16,800 --> 01:34:20,760
refuse to just willy nilly provide that
label to anyone, but especially not this

1140
01:34:20,880 --> 01:34:24,119
kid of Mike hol On. Well, let's see what's going on. I

1141
01:34:24,159 --> 01:34:30,199
think this movie did a good job
of showing that. Watching him and Christofferson

1142
01:34:31,199 --> 01:34:36,079
interact and then try it like both
to follow Dad around kind of made me

1143
01:34:36,239 --> 01:34:41,920
laugh because I was like, ah, look, it's what Tim Drake and

1144
01:34:42,039 --> 01:34:45,960
Dick Grayson would go through if they
ever got together. And we're trying to

1145
01:34:45,960 --> 01:34:53,600
figure out who they are in relation
to Daddy Batman an other self involved purse

1146
01:34:54,439 --> 01:35:00,640
just a little. Yeah, it's
hard, but not necessarily this personality disorder

1147
01:35:00,640 --> 01:35:06,600
it self involved has aspects of elevated
narcissism, yes, but not necessarily like

1148
01:35:08,399 --> 01:35:14,520
so willing to self destroy everything like
mister Fox's Like there's some profound differences.

1149
01:35:14,560 --> 01:35:23,520
But you know, watching like how
would Robin turned into night Wing is kind

1150
01:35:23,560 --> 01:35:29,520
of when you were talking about watching
watching Ash kind of developed his own thing.

1151
01:35:29,560 --> 01:35:30,319
Well I'm small and I can do
this, and he went off and

1152
01:35:30,359 --> 01:35:34,279
like did his own things Like that's
pretty much what did Grayson did when he

1153
01:35:35,199 --> 01:35:41,479
left behind the Robin Moniker and stuff. And kind of as he grew up

1154
01:35:41,560 --> 01:35:45,159
actualized into his own thing and stopped
trying to do it Bruce's way and would

1155
01:35:45,279 --> 01:35:46,159
clash with Bruce a lot and be
like, no, I'm going to do

1156
01:35:46,159 --> 01:35:48,199
it my way in a way that
makes sense to me, and I don't

1157
01:35:48,199 --> 01:35:51,159
need to do it your way,
and I can be me and be okay.

1158
01:35:51,199 --> 01:35:55,359
And we saw ashe do exactly that
he stopped trying to be his dad

1159
01:35:55,399 --> 01:36:00,039
and did it his own way and
it worked for him. So I like

1160
01:36:00,199 --> 01:36:01,920
this one. I sat down and
watched it with my child, at least

1161
01:36:01,920 --> 01:36:05,479
part of it, and she wanted
to watch the rest, which is she's

1162
01:36:05,520 --> 01:36:08,640
like, wait, what happened in
the part I didn't see? And that's

1163
01:36:09,279 --> 01:36:12,000
she won't do that with everything.
So I'm going to sit down with her

1164
01:36:12,039 --> 01:36:15,520
and watch the rest. And Yeah, I think I would watch this one

1165
01:36:15,640 --> 01:36:19,560
again if I already used a hand
rating system. Yes, you should also

1166
01:36:20,199 --> 01:36:25,479
Aisle of Dogs as well, which
is his other movie that's similar to this,

1167
01:36:25,560 --> 01:36:29,439
and I think would be okay for
able to watch because there's a lot

1168
01:36:29,479 --> 01:36:32,399
of dogs that are not treated well. But I don't think you see anything

1169
01:36:32,439 --> 01:36:36,960
that I think would like really upset
her as a five year old. Yeah,

1170
01:36:38,039 --> 01:36:41,560
well, Disney kills everybody's parents,
so you know, I think that's

1171
01:36:41,600 --> 01:36:44,399
true. She's seen more brutal things
than that. If you watch Lion Ging,

1172
01:36:45,680 --> 01:36:49,680
she loves the Lion Guard. So
we've watched the shit out of anything

1173
01:36:49,760 --> 01:36:55,359
lion related. That's the current kick
cute. I'm just glad it's not the

1174
01:36:55,640 --> 01:37:00,680
sequels of Little Mermaid anymore where we
have to watch her mom get run over

1175
01:37:00,720 --> 01:37:08,640
by a pirate ship of humans anymore. They need they need the therapist department

1176
01:37:08,840 --> 01:37:14,319
because they all have Yeah I don't
I don't know there was two or three,

1177
01:37:14,399 --> 01:37:16,880
but like whichever ariials beginning. Yeah, they just like straight up have

1178
01:37:17,079 --> 01:37:21,039
a boat. Like a ship just
runs over her mom. And that's why

1179
01:37:21,399 --> 01:37:26,720
King Triton hates humans so much,
is because mom got run over by a

1180
01:37:26,960 --> 01:37:32,840
terrible that's fucking crazy and the movie
crazy terrible. Yeah, it's one of

1181
01:37:32,840 --> 01:37:39,680
those made for DVD, right made
Sally Field, Oh, Sally, I

1182
01:37:39,680 --> 01:37:45,600
mean get that check, I guess
girl. But all right, Hannah,

1183
01:37:45,640 --> 01:37:49,279
what are your thoughts? Um?
I like, I like this movie.

1184
01:37:49,760 --> 01:37:54,239
I've watched it a couple of times. I just like, I really like

1185
01:37:54,359 --> 01:37:58,079
Ash a lot, and I like
Christopherson and I think they're really cute,

1186
01:37:58,159 --> 01:38:05,880
and I love how they say cuss
instead of using cuss words and yeah,

1187
01:38:06,000 --> 01:38:10,479
yeah, that part really cracked me
up. So I like this. I

1188
01:38:10,520 --> 01:38:15,279
like this movie. Um. Even
though I don't like mister Fox very much

1189
01:38:17,279 --> 01:38:20,960
at all, I do like this
movie and I will definitely watch it again.

1190
01:38:21,680 --> 01:38:26,399
It's on Disney Plus for anyone who
has not watched yet and has listened

1191
01:38:26,399 --> 01:38:29,760
to this whole episode not watching it. Um. I like I said,

1192
01:38:29,840 --> 01:38:34,680
I love this movie. It's my
favorite Wes Anderson movie. Surprisingly, I

1193
01:38:34,720 --> 01:38:39,680
also find mister Fox to be very
unlikable. I like this movie because it

1194
01:38:39,680 --> 01:38:44,920
feels like fall and it's very like
cozy like that. I also just love

1195
01:38:45,840 --> 01:38:50,840
the way that Wes Anderson filtered his
sensibility into a kids movie, like the

1196
01:38:50,960 --> 01:38:56,840
saying cuss. There's a really funny
master cut super cut of all the times

1197
01:38:56,840 --> 01:39:00,720
they see a cuss in the movie
that I would recommend everyone and check out

1198
01:39:00,840 --> 01:39:04,600
on YouTube if they can find it, because saying like cluster cuss and what

1199
01:39:04,720 --> 01:39:08,239
the cuss? What the cuss did
you just said to me? Like,

1200
01:39:08,640 --> 01:39:12,479
it's so funny and stupid in a
way that always wants to laugh. And

1201
01:39:12,520 --> 01:39:15,119
Bill Murray doing it is very funny, So I will watch this movie a

1202
01:39:15,199 --> 01:39:18,920
bajillion times more. I'm really glad
that it's on Disney Plus and hopefully we'll

1203
01:39:18,920 --> 01:39:24,800
stay there forever. Yeah, what, I would highly recommend it. And

1204
01:39:24,840 --> 01:39:29,119
also, yeah, like I said
before, Jason Schwartzman doing anything in a

1205
01:39:29,119 --> 01:39:32,920
Wes Anderson movie really gets my goat. So I think it's a big part

1206
01:39:32,960 --> 01:39:36,239
of why Ash works for me,
and I like a spunky kid. So

1207
01:39:36,279 --> 01:39:41,880
with that we will sign off there. As always, find us on Facebook,

1208
01:39:41,880 --> 01:39:46,159
Instagram, and TikTok at Popcorn Psychology, Twitter at popcorn Underscore psych You

1209
01:39:46,159 --> 01:39:51,039
can always support us via Patreon.
The link is in our bio. If

1210
01:39:51,159 --> 01:39:56,199
you are a fifty dollars or more
patron, you get to pick the topic

1211
01:39:56,279 --> 01:39:59,520
and movie of an episode we do, but if you are any kind of

1212
01:39:59,520 --> 01:40:03,079
patron, you get access to our
early and edited episodes, so if you

1213
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would like early access, check that
out. If you would like merch,

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you can find on tepublic dot com. You can look for us there,

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and as always, if you want
to message us directly, you can find

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us at Popcorn Psychology at gmail dot
com, and please rate and review us

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wherever you listen to podcasts. It
really helps us out. It's the best

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way for new people to find us, and we always enjoy reading the reviews,

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especially when they're nice. So nice
reviews are welcome, and you know,

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have a cussing good day.