WEBVTT 1 00:00:31.160 --> 00:00:35.960 Welcome back to the Pathway Chili. I'm Robin, I'm Jules, and I'm 2 00:00:36.039 --> 00:00:42.079 Ashley. Let's dive right into this week's case. December nineteenth, nineteen fifty 3 00:00:42.159 --> 00:00:47.920 nine, Osprey, Florida. After spending the day running errands and visiting a 4 00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:52.640 family friend, twenty five year old Cliffwalker, his twenty four year old wife 5 00:00:52.759 --> 00:00:57.200 Christine, and their two children, three year old Jimmy and twenty three month 6 00:00:57.240 --> 00:01:00.759 old Debbie, head back home in separate vehicles. The following morning, the 7 00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:06.120 family's bodies are discovered inside their rural house. They were each shot in the 8 00:01:06.159 --> 00:01:10.159 head before de w was drowned in the bathtub, and Christine had been sexually 9 00:01:10.159 --> 00:01:15.200 assaulted. Over the next several decades, investigators would look at a number of 10 00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:21.239 different suspects, including Perry Smith and Richard Hickock, who were responsible for murdering 11 00:01:21.239 --> 00:01:25.519 the Clutter family in Kansas one month earlier, but in the end, no 12 00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:30.560 one is ever conclusively linked to the Walker family murders. After that, the 13 00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:34.120 path went Chile. So today we are going to be covering the Walker family 14 00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:38.640 murders, a story which involves a married couple and their two young children being 15 00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:44.760 brutally murdered inside their home as they were preparing for the holidays. The investigation 16 00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:49.040 went uncover quite a few potential suspects, but there was no conclusive evidence to 17 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:53.920 point to anyone in particular. But the case has taken a very interesting turn 18 00:01:53.959 --> 00:01:57.799 in recent years, as investigators have been exploring the possibility that the perpetrators might 19 00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:02.480 be Perry Smith and Hiccock, who committed one of the most infamous crimes ever 20 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:07.199 when they murdered the Clutter family inside their farmhouse in Kansas, a story which 21 00:02:07.240 --> 00:02:13.599 became the subject of Truman Capote's iconic true crime book In Cold Blood. There 22 00:02:13.639 --> 00:02:16.919 are some striking similarities between the murders of the Clutters and the Walkers, and 23 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:22.479 compelling evidence that Smith and Hiccock were in Florida at the time the Walkers were 24 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:27.599 killed. However, an attempt to exume the killer's remains for DNA testing failed 25 00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:31.319 to bring about a definitive conclusion. I originally covered this case on the Trail 26 00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:35.639 Went Cold four and a half years ago, but there's since been another new 27 00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:38.400 development with the DNA testing, which I'll discuss later on in this episode, 28 00:02:38.759 --> 00:02:44.000 and we're going to explore all different possibilities about who might have been responsible for 29 00:02:44.080 --> 00:02:50.039 this crime. So this one's horrifying because it's a whole family that's executed inside 30 00:02:50.120 --> 00:02:53.240 their home, a place where they should have been safe. And it's really 31 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:57.879 interesting because they're out running errands and visiting a family friend and then drive home 32 00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:00.919 in separate vehicles. I think, Okay, you know, maybe the husband 33 00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:04.159 doesn't get killed and he's the one who did it, but no, the 34 00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:07.919 whole family winds up back at home and is executed. So it's a horrific 35 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:13.240 case from the get go, and I'm praying that as technology advances, you 36 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:16.240 know, with cold cases, it's the only plus is time and this ability 37 00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:20.520 to have new science and new ideas and new things coming to the case. 38 00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:23.639 There's genetic genealogy and things that might be able to get the DNA of these 39 00:03:24.319 --> 00:03:29.479 individuals that weren't able to get DNA from the exhumation or anything like that. 40 00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:32.599 Yeah, because this case is nearly sixty five years old, but we're still 41 00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:37.000 talking about it on the podcast, and it is refreshing to know that there 42 00:03:37.120 --> 00:03:40.759 is still an active investigation trying to figure out who the perpetrators were. And 43 00:03:42.120 --> 00:03:45.319 at this point, I think there's a good chance that whoever committed this crime 44 00:03:45.400 --> 00:03:49.039 is now dead. It can never be arrested and prosecuted. But I do 45 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:52.520 like that they are trying to conclusively figure out what happens. But in this 46 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:55.360 case, there are just so many suspects to choose from that it's hard to 47 00:03:55.360 --> 00:04:00.280 come up with the definitive conclusion about who the guilty party might be. Our 48 00:04:00.360 --> 00:04:06.400 story begins in nineteen fifty nine in Osprey, Florida, a small town located 49 00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:12.199 in Sarasota County which had a population of only a few thousand people. One 50 00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:15.399 of our victims is twenty five year old Cliff Walker, who lives just outside 51 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:19.000 of Osprey with his twenty four year old wife, Christine Walker, and their 52 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:24.560 two children, three year old Jimmy and twenty three month old Debbie. The 53 00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:29.120 couple have been married for five years and originally hailed from the town of Arcadia 54 00:04:29.240 --> 00:04:33.439 before they decided to move to Sarasota County. The Walkers currently reside a Palmer 55 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:39.399 Ranch, a fourteen thousand acre property of land owned by one of the area's 56 00:04:39.399 --> 00:04:44.360 wealthiest families. In exchange for working there as a ranch hand, Cliff and 57 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:47.519 his family are allowed to live rent free in an isolated farmhouse at a cattle 58 00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:51.399 ranch on the property, which is located at the end of a two mile 59 00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:57.439 dirt road and about a mile away from their nearest neighbors. On Saturday, 60 00:04:57.480 --> 00:05:01.519 December nineteenth, the Walkers were prepared for the holidays, as a Christmas tree, 61 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:04.839 which they had not had time to decorate, was resting on their front 62 00:05:04.920 --> 00:05:11.560 porch with wrapped Christmas gifts underneath it. On this particular day, the family 63 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:15.160 went into town to run several errands, which included visiting a couple of used 64 00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:19.120 car lots and test driving a vehicle, as Cliff was looking to trade in 65 00:05:19.160 --> 00:05:25.079 his family's older model car. The Walkers eventually went to visit Don and Lucy 66 00:05:25.160 --> 00:05:30.399 mc cleod, who lived in another isolated farmhouse on the Palmer Ranch property about 67 00:05:30.399 --> 00:05:33.879 twenty minutes away from the Walker residence. Like Cliff, Don worked as a 68 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:39.199 ranch hand in exchange for living on the property rent free, and the two 69 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:43.360 men spent part of the afternoon hunting together. When they returned to the mc 70 00:05:43.399 --> 00:05:46.720 clod residence, Cliff started loading up a jeep with sacks of cattle feed, 71 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:50.720 which he needed to take back to his house. Christine would go on ahead 72 00:05:50.759 --> 00:05:56.199 and drive back home in the family car, but since Jimmy and Debby wanted 73 00:05:56.240 --> 00:06:00.040 to ride with their father and the jeep, the children stayed behind. Approximately 74 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:05.000 fifteen minutes after Christine left, Cliff finished loading up the cattle feed and drove 75 00:06:05.040 --> 00:06:10.959 away from the McLoud residence with his children shortly before four pm. But this 76 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:15.920 would turn out to be the last time the McLeod saw them alive. It 77 00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:19.600 shows how much someone would have had to target this family because the property is 78 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:24.759 huge and it's isolated. For example, they live down a two and a 79 00:06:24.800 --> 00:06:29.800 half mile dirt road. They live twenty minutes away from the Walkers who live 80 00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:34.360 on the same property, so it is a vast area. And to say 81 00:06:34.360 --> 00:06:39.519 I'm going to go target this family, they had to have known their location 82 00:06:39.720 --> 00:06:43.600 and that they would be in this farmhouse that was on the property. And 83 00:06:43.639 --> 00:06:46.959 what else throws me for a loop is these little ones were so small. 84 00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:49.439 It's not like two teenagers. You have a three year old and a nearly 85 00:06:49.519 --> 00:06:55.399 two year old. What were they going to be able to tell anybody. 86 00:06:55.079 --> 00:06:58.199 It's tragic when you think about the fact that yes, mom and dad were 87 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:00.759 killed, but then these two little ones were killed, and in so many 88 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:04.439 ways, I think, like why they weren't going to be able to identify 89 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:09.560 people unless they knew them really well, and it was like Uncle Johnny, 90 00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:13.240 right, unless they could tell who this person was. So a lot of 91 00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:17.040 troubling issues right from the start of given how isolated and how cold blooded this 92 00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:21.120 whole instance was. Yeah, as we're going to talk about, there are 93 00:07:21.160 --> 00:07:26.439 a wide variety of suspects in this case, some of whom were personally affiliated 94 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:30.839 with the Walkers, while others would have been complete strangers. But you are 95 00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:33.759 right that this was such an isolated location that I don't think anyone could stumble 96 00:07:33.879 --> 00:07:38.160 upon a by pure chance. And as we're going to talk about, one 97 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:44.079 of the most prominent theories is that whoever was responsible was probably already waiting when 98 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:46.959 Christine arrived home, and that the crime may have been in progress when Cliff 99 00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:50.199 and the children arrived, and that could be the reason that the children wound 100 00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:55.639 up being murdered too. At five point thirty am on the morning of December 101 00:07:55.720 --> 00:07:59.959 the twentieth, Don McLeod traveled to the Walker residence as he was planning to 102 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:03.000 gohag hunting with Cliff. When he arrived, Don was surprised to see that 103 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:07.160 the Sacks of cattle feed were still inside the park jeep, along with Cliff's 104 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:11.879 loaded hunting rifle. Don became concerned when he discovered that all the houses doors 105 00:08:11.879 --> 00:08:16.560 were locked and no one would answer. He decided to use his pocket knife 106 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:18.920 to cut a slit through the screen on the back door and use the knife 107 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:24.160 to prop open the latch and enter the house. When Don walked inside, 108 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:28.120 he was shocked to discover Christine's body lying on the living room floor in a 109 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:31.600 pool of blood in the doorway to the dining room. Christine had been raped 110 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:35.600 and beaten by an unknown assailant before she was shot twice in the head with 111 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:41.000 a twenty two caliber gun. The bodies of Cliff and Jimmy were lying on 112 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:45.080 the floor in another section of the room. Cliff had been shot beneath his 113 00:08:45.159 --> 00:08:48.440 right eye, while Jimmy was shot in the head three times, and there 114 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:52.240 were streaks of blood on the floor to indicate that the boy had crawled towards 115 00:08:52.279 --> 00:08:56.039 his father after the first time he was shot. This prompted Don to flee 116 00:08:56.080 --> 00:09:01.279 the house and find a payphone to call the Sarasota Police to apartment. When 117 00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:03.879 they arrived at the house, the police followed another trail of blood into the 118 00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:09.799 bathroom, where they discovered Debbie's body lying face down inside the bathtub. Debbie 119 00:09:09.879 --> 00:09:13.240 had been shot once in the head, but someone had also stopped a sock 120 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:18.519 in the draid and filled the bathsub with four inches of water. It was 121 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:22.200 believed that the killer had right out of bullets after firing the first shot into 122 00:09:22.200 --> 00:09:26.320 Debbie and decided to drown her in the tub in order to ensure she was 123 00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:30.799 dead. Jimmy's cowboy hat was also found on the floor with a bullet hole 124 00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:33.360 in it, so the killer may have used it to cover Debbie's face when 125 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:37.879 he shot her. That to me indicates that he did know her. Right. 126 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:41.519 Yes, it's a little girl, but he didn't have any empathy for 127 00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:43.919 the little one. The other little boy who's crawling towards his dad, who's 128 00:09:45.000 --> 00:09:48.919 dying. He shot him three times with no problem, but to drown the 129 00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:52.159 little one and to look at her face when he shot her. It does 130 00:09:52.360 --> 00:09:56.399 feel like it had to be someone who knew her, because otherwise the empathy 131 00:09:56.440 --> 00:10:01.360 wasn't shown for anybody else. Exactly like you would think twenty three months old, 132 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:05.679 that the girl is not going to be able to talk or provide a 133 00:10:05.720 --> 00:10:09.759 positive identification, but it could lend credence to the idea that this was someone 134 00:10:09.799 --> 00:10:15.440 acquainted with the family. So theoretically, if the police said to Debbie, 135 00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:18.279 can you point out whoever the killer was, and she would probably still at 136 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:22.960 that age, still have the wherewithal to do so. So that's why he 137 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:26.360 decided to kill her, even though it's possible he didn't even really want to. 138 00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:30.399 But I mean, it wouldn't even stand up in court even if a 139 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:33.120 child that age could point to somebody, because there's so many different things that 140 00:10:33.159 --> 00:10:39.559 can influence memory, and the communication of a nearly two year old wouldn't really 141 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:43.159 be something that would likely secure a conviction. I mean, maybe if that 142 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:48.320 person didn't have an alibi, and they were some of the that may have 143 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:52.639 had the motivation, or an interesting Christine, But to kill a little baby 144 00:10:52.679 --> 00:10:58.039 that age, it just seems like overkill in that situation because I don't know 145 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:03.519 how verbal she was, But maybe it was that killing that really, for 146 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:07.759 some reason tugged on the killer's heartstrings. Maybe they knew them, maybe they 147 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:13.039 didn't. But killing a little baby girl that age, it just is so 148 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:16.360 brutal. It just hits me right like a gut punch. Oh yeah, 149 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:20.039 just all the details about this are so disturbing. And even Jimmy himself, 150 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:22.679 like, he was only three years old, so he's not going to be 151 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:26.120 much of a witness either. He's going to have a hard time verbalizing what 152 00:11:26.200 --> 00:11:31.840 he saw. Yet this person had no hesitation about shooting this little boy three 153 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:35.720 times in this Three times that just seems like overkill. You would think one 154 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:39.120 would be enough for a child, would it not. Yeah, And he's 155 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:41.879 two and a half miles away from anybody else, so even if he ran, 156 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:45.879 like, is a baby gonna nowhere to go? And is he going 157 00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:50.919 to make it without dying? It's just it's ridiculous. The killer had apparently 158 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:54.039 locked the door when they left the house, and a number of twenty two 159 00:11:54.159 --> 00:11:58.639 caliber cartridges were found at the scene, so the second shot which was fired 160 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:03.240 into Christine was a thirty two caliber slug. A red cellophane cigarette wrapper from 161 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:07.080 a brand of cigarettes Cliff did not smoke, was also on the living room 162 00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:11.799 floor. Cliff smoked cool brown cigarettes and had purchased a cart and on the 163 00:12:11.879 --> 00:12:16.360 day that he was killed, but they were apparently taken by the person who 164 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:20.799 shot him. Cliff's pocket knife was also stolen, and strangely, the Walker's 165 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:26.080 marriage certificate, which normally hung inside a frame on the living room wall, 166 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:31.240 was also missing. Upon first glance, there didn't seem to be anything else 167 00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:35.840 stolen from the house, but it was later discovered that a drum majorrette uniform 168 00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:39.600 Christine wore in high school and ordinarily kept in a plastic bag inside a ceed 169 00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:43.799 or chest, had been stolen. As well as far as physical evidence from 170 00:12:43.799 --> 00:12:50.919 outside intruders. There appeared to be unidentified fingerprints on a baptub bosset, though 171 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:54.639 in later years it was determined that it was most likely a palm print. 172 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:58.759 Two hairs were also found which were inconsistent with anyone from the Walker family. 173 00:13:00.519 --> 00:13:03.240 One of them was a dark hair discovered inside the bathroom, while the other 174 00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:09.159 was a blonde hair inside Christine's dress. So when you look at the evidence 175 00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:13.759 here, remember Christine had been raped. The marriage certificate's missing, her majorette 176 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:20.279 uniform is missing, and it seems as if she's the target. That someone's 177 00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:24.759 really angry that they didn't get what they wanted from her, and they're going 178 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:26.840 to make her suffer the most and take away what matters to her, which 179 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:31.480 is her husband and her two children, so it's really bizarre. Yes, 180 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:33.440 a pack of cigarettes was taken, but that would be convenience. Someone went 181 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:39.080 to look for an outfit and there's a hair inside her dress and things like 182 00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:41.919 that. So to me, it feels like she was the one that was 183 00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:48.679 most handled and harmed and victimized both physically and by the things that were taking 184 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:52.480 in the house, compared to the dad and the two children. So you 185 00:13:52.519 --> 00:13:58.879 think that it was sexually motivated and the robbery was just like a tertiary motivation 186 00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:03.480 or resent resentment, like she's mine, I wanted her, I didn't get 187 00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:05.879 what I wanted, and so they come and they rape her, they kill 188 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:09.159 everything that matters to her, and they take the marriage certificate as a like, 189 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:11.840 well not anymore, you know what I mean, like someone who wanted 190 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:16.240 to be with her, it didn't get that opportunity. And then shoot, 191 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:18.600 if I walk by a pack of cigarettes, that's expensive, but take those 192 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:22.399 with me. They'll be a twist later with the marriage certificate. So wonderful 193 00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:26.440 will change your opinion. Okay, Okay, go for it. Yeah, 194 00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:28.200 we'll talk about that later. But I still think that the drum major ATTE 195 00:14:28.279 --> 00:14:33.639 uniform is the weirdest detail because at least with the marriage certificate it would be 196 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:37.039 out on the wall in the open, But to discover the majorte uniform you 197 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:39.120 would actually have to go into a seat or chest, so it's not visible. 198 00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:43.320 So that gives off the impression that whoever did this knew it was there. 199 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:48.320 And I'd assume it's quite like a cute little risque cheerleading outfit looking thing, 200 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:50.519 which back in that time, you know, a short skirt and a 201 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:56.600 little majorette sweater or something like that would to me be quite sexual as well. 202 00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:01.759 Investigators attempted to read traced the victim's movements to figure out how the murders 203 00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:07.679 might have taken place. Christine had left the McCloud residence and arrived home before 204 00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:11.360 her husband and children, but it turned out she did not park the family 205 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:15.720 car in its usual spot in front of the house. This led to speculation 206 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:18.799 that the killer was already there and had parked their own vehicle in this spot 207 00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:24.840 before Christine arrived. Indeed, a local resident who flew their plane over the 208 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:30.679 property that afternoon at approximately four to twenty pm recalled seeing two cars parked outside 209 00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:35.080 the house. Unfortunately, When a deputy arrived at the scene, he parked 210 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:39.000 his car in that spot and may have destroyed tire track evidence from the killer's 211 00:15:39.080 --> 00:15:43.039 vehicle. Christine's purse was hung up in the kitchen, grocery she purchased earlier 212 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:46.960 that day had been put away, and a Christmas card she received from Lucy 213 00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:52.039 McLoud was on top of the refrigerator. This seemed to suggest that Christine may 214 00:15:52.039 --> 00:15:56.039 have been familiar enough with her killer to invite him inside the house and allow 215 00:15:56.120 --> 00:16:02.000 him to wait there while she performed her household tasks. A quilt from Jimmy's 216 00:16:02.039 --> 00:16:04.879 bedroom was stained with blood, and the evidence showed that Christine was raped on 217 00:16:04.919 --> 00:16:08.720 top of the bed before the killer fired his first shot at her, which 218 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:14.080 only grazed the top of her head. He then dragged Christine's body into the 219 00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:18.440 living room and fired a second shot into her head. It seemed like the 220 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:22.320 killer was using the quilt to white blood from Christine's legs, but may have 221 00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:26.600 been interrupted when Cliff and the children arrived home. One of Christine's high heeled 222 00:16:26.600 --> 00:16:30.080 shoes was found on the porch while the other was in the bedroom, and 223 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:36.519 they both have blood on them and the bruises and abrasions on Christine's face indicated 224 00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:38.919 that she had put up a fight against her attacker and attempted to use her 225 00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:45.159 shoes as weapons. After leaving the McCloud residence in the jeep, Cliff and 226 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:48.159 the two children had been seen stopping at a gas station, so the approximate 227 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:52.799 time they would have arrived home was around four thirty. Cliff had been shot 228 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:57.200 from a distance, so he was likely ambushed and killed instantly the moment he 229 00:16:57.240 --> 00:17:02.679 set foot in the house. A few months after the murders, bloody clothing 230 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:07.079 belonging to Cliff and Christine was found inside a shed about a mile from the 231 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:11.200 walk of residence, so the killer likely used it to clean themselves up when 232 00:17:11.200 --> 00:17:15.240 they left, and they had to know where that shed was a mile away 233 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:18.519 from the house. Again, this property is so big, so how did 234 00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:22.759 they find that little shed? Was it on the two and a half mile 235 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:26.480 drive down their driveway or is this somewhere off more obscure, Because the more 236 00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:30.400 and more you hear about this, the more and more these people have to 237 00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:34.480 know the family and the area, which is an important factor here. And 238 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:38.640 you got to think about these kids too. If Mom's already dead or she's 239 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:42.440 being killed. Dad walks in and is ambushed. Those two babies are standing 240 00:17:42.519 --> 00:17:48.200 there watching their parents get killed before they're also murdered. Yeah, that's just 241 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:51.960 what's horrifying about it, And the idea that the killer went through this without 242 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:56.359 hesitation just kind of shows that they had no conscience. But you're right, 243 00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:00.160 the fact that they found this shed does indicate that they had a familiarity with 244 00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:03.880 the area. It's not entirely clear to me if it was on the Palmer 245 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:07.039 Ranch property or if it just happened to be in abandoned shed nearby, but 246 00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:11.880 they obviously knew it would be a good hiding place while they got rid of 247 00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:15.720 the bloody clothing. Do you know if the shed was visible from any road. 248 00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:19.480 I'm not entirely sure. No, I don't really have any details, 249 00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:23.759 only that it was a shed about a mile from the residence, because if 250 00:18:23.799 --> 00:18:27.119 it was visible from the road, it may have just been a spot of 251 00:18:27.160 --> 00:18:33.200 opportunity, and then we could just be looking into it like this is something 252 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:37.559 that has meaning and that they must have known the area or known the property, 253 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:42.000 known the walkers. But it's like whether it's one person or multiple people 254 00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:45.680 leaving the scene we want to find summer to dispose of these clothes, and 255 00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:49.039 they just happened to see this shed while they're escaping, and they're like, 256 00:18:49.079 --> 00:18:52.920 Oh, this looks like a good place to dump this stuff, and then 257 00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:59.119 they just leave it there. Unfortunately, the local police were woefully inexperienced with 258 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:02.960 handling a crime this nature. Believe it or not, They did not even 259 00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:06.880 possess a good camera, so they had to get a news photographer to take 260 00:19:06.920 --> 00:19:11.839 pictures of the crime scene for them. Bloody cowboy bootprints were also found at 261 00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:15.200 the house, and for the longest time, it was assumed they belonged to 262 00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:18.039 the killer, but it turned out that the prints were from a deputy who'd 263 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:22.119 accidentally stepped into a pool of blood in the living room. In addition, 264 00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:26.240 if you look back at the original newspaper accounts of the case, you can 265 00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:32.960 find statements from the Sarasota County Sheriff that Christine was not sexually assaulted, but 266 00:19:33.079 --> 00:19:37.480 this was not true, as it turned out that Stephen was found on Christine's 267 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:41.680 underwear, which would eventually become crucial evidence in this case. You also have 268 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:45.680 to remember that they pulled into the parking spot right in front of their house 269 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:48.680 too, knowing that if there was an intruder who came into this house, 270 00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:52.640 it is possible they came in a vehicle. You'd park further away from the 271 00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:56.640 residents, hoping you could investigate right around the perimeter of the home and see 272 00:19:56.680 --> 00:20:02.359 if there's footprints, tire track, things like that that are foreign. And 273 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:04.359 instead they're like, we're just gonna pull right up front door service, jump 274 00:20:04.359 --> 00:20:08.000 out and start walking around here with our bare feet and see what happens. 275 00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:12.240 So you can tell that they're not used to investigating cases like this. So 276 00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:17.079 the investigation, at least five hundred and eighty seven people would be looked at 277 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:21.440 as potential suspects. We're going to start off by looking at potential suspects that 278 00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:25.559 have since been cleared. One of them was Don McCloud, who originally discovered 279 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:30.359 the bodies. Another person of interest was Cliff's cousin, Albert Walker, who 280 00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:33.319 lived around seventy miles away in the town of Wakula and just happened to show 281 00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:37.400 up in Osprey on the day the bodies were found. When Albert arrived at 282 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:41.799 the murder scene, he broke out into hysterics and he had another emotional breakdown 283 00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:45.240 at the family's funeral, where he fainted twice and had to be carried out 284 00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:51.480 of the church. Some people found Albert's behavior suspicious and thought he might be 285 00:20:51.559 --> 00:20:56.200 staging his emotional outbursts to cover up his own involvement, as there were rumors 286 00:20:56.200 --> 00:21:00.480 that he was enamored with Christine. Albert also raised some eyebrows when he claimed 287 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:04.039 he traveled to Osprey in order to speak to Cliff about a Christmas party he 288 00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:07.880 was hosting, but it turned out that Cliff was never planning to host any 289 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:12.960 party. Another odd detail was that when Albert originally arrived in Osprey, he 290 00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:18.519 stopped at a local gas station asked for directions to the Walker residence, even 291 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:22.240 though he had briefly lived there on a previous occasion and should have known where 292 00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:26.519 it was. However, both Albert and Don McLeod pass polygraph tests, and 293 00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:33.160 in two thousand and five voluntarily submitted themselves to DNA testing. By this point, 294 00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:37.200 he was determined that the semen found on Christine's underwear did not belong to 295 00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:41.119 Cliff and was likely left by her killer when he raped her, But a 296 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:45.079 DNA sample taken from the seamen did not match don Or Albert and officially cleared 297 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:49.240 them as suspects, but there are some other persons of interest who have never 298 00:21:49.319 --> 00:21:53.519 had their DNA tested. I will say something that the invesciators must have done 299 00:21:53.559 --> 00:21:57.960 right is not jumped to conclusions, because when you do look, Albert sounds 300 00:21:59.240 --> 00:22:03.160 very suspicious. There's a lot of bizarre behavior. Also, asking for directions 301 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:07.000 makes it seem like he's trying to have an alibi, like where he was, 302 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:08.200 and like I just want to make sure I'm seen around a place I'm 303 00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:12.759 actually familiar with. But then he steps forward and he takes a polygraph, 304 00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:17.759 he has his DNA tested, all of that, and that's at the scene 305 00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:21.160 of the crime. And so it's you know, we look back at so 306 00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:23.079 many cases and we can talk about wrong convictions, and it looks like here, 307 00:22:23.319 --> 00:22:32.200 someone who's bizarre and makes some pretty questionable decisions regarding this family but might 308 00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:37.599 not have been the killer, was cleared and not suspected of this crime after 309 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:40.920 passing these tests. So that's a good thing in this case, definitely, 310 00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:44.519 And I am glad that for all the mistakes, they did preserve the semen 311 00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:48.440 so they could do this DNA testing several decades later, though, as we're 312 00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:51.759 going to talk about later on. There would be an additional complication with that. 313 00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:57.440 Investigator looked at a meter reader named Stanley Mauk who serviced the Walker residence. 314 00:22:59.240 --> 00:23:02.440 Well, there was no direct evidence to link Molk to the crime. 315 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:07.559 He spent time in a mental institution and received elector shock therapy because he claimed 316 00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:12.039 he was sometimes overwhelmed by an uncontrollable urge to kill his wife and children. 317 00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:18.240 Another detail which put Malk on the police's radar is that he also happened to 318 00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:22.599 be the better reader at a house where another brutal murder took place only four 319 00:23:22.599 --> 00:23:26.279 months earlier. On August seventh, nineteen fifty nine, the body of a 320 00:23:26.359 --> 00:23:33.160 twenty two year old University of Florida student named Chandler Stephens was discovered inside a 321 00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:37.759 house he was renting from his stepmother in Sarasota, which is located just ten 322 00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:42.920 miles northwest of Osprey. Stephens was found hogtied and his head was completely wrapped 323 00:23:42.920 --> 00:23:48.640 with his heesive tape. The killer had only left Stephen's nostril holes uncovered so 324 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:52.599 he could breathe, and then proceeded to torture him with a knife for hours 325 00:23:52.920 --> 00:23:56.680 before his throat was cut. The crime became known as the Sarasota Mummy murder 326 00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:02.519 and remains unsolved to this day. Other than the fact that Stanley malk was 327 00:24:02.519 --> 00:24:07.079 a meter reader at both residences, there was nothing to link the Sarasota Mummy 328 00:24:07.160 --> 00:24:11.400 murder to the Walker murders, and Mouk died of brain cancer in nineteen ninety 329 00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:15.799 seven. So when you look at this one, the fact that there was 330 00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:23.279 a the duct tape and the knife being used versus gunshots and drowning, Yes, 331 00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:26.319 they're both brutal. Yes he was a meta reader at both, but 332 00:24:26.359 --> 00:24:32.400 those are quite different methods of operation for killing somebody. Oh yeah, Like 333 00:24:32.440 --> 00:24:34.359 one of these days, I think I want to do like my own individual 334 00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:40.519 podcast episode on the Sarasota Mummy murder because it's creepy and it's bizarre, and 335 00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:42.920 I don't think there are ever any suspects in that case. But that sounded 336 00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:47.279 like the living hell to be tortured for hours. Will you're wrapped in tape 337 00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:51.799 and only have your nostril hols uncovered so you're still alive. But it doesn't 338 00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:53.720 seem like there's any connection between the two cases. But it is kind of 339 00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:57.799 a weird coincidence that malk would be a meta reader. At both these residents 340 00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:03.000 where murders took place, Investigators were told that a couple of different men from 341 00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:07.960 the area had made inappropriate advances on Christine, but one person who stood out 342 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:12.400 was sixty five year old Wilbur took Her. Tooker lived about a mile from 343 00:25:12.440 --> 00:25:17.000 the Walk residence, it was their closest neighbor, and he seemed to have 344 00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:21.519 an obsession with Christine. On more than one occasion, took Her had stopped 345 00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:26.079 by the house while Cliff was away and attempted to kiss Christine. When Cliff 346 00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:29.960 found out about this, he became so angry that he reportedly had to be 347 00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:33.920 talked out of killing took Her, but he still confronted him and warned took 348 00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:37.759 Her not to come around their house anymore. On the day of the murders, 349 00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:41.319 Tooker's whereabouts could be accounted for after five PM, as he had dinner 350 00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:45.240 with a friend in Sarasota before going to a local high school to play the 351 00:25:45.319 --> 00:25:51.519 violin in an orchestra at a concert later that night. However, Tooker technically 352 00:25:51.559 --> 00:25:56.319 had no alibi between four o'clock and five o'clock, the exact time period the 353 00:25:56.359 --> 00:26:00.279 Walkers were killed, and he passed away in March of nineteen sixty ten three. 354 00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:03.680 At the time I released my original Trail with Cold episode four and a 355 00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:07.960 half years ago, no DNA testing had been performed in regards to took Her, 356 00:26:08.440 --> 00:26:15.000 but investigators have since obtained DNA samples from his surviving descendants and compared them 357 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:18.599 to the DNA from the Seman evidence. While a conclusive match was not made, 358 00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:22.680 took Her could not entirely be dismissed as a contributor either, So he 359 00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:27.240 has never officially been ruled out. What does that mean? So, I 360 00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:30.480 mean, I know, if you can't make a conclusive match, you can't 361 00:26:30.680 --> 00:26:36.000 go forward with it with any kind of conclusion. But if he can't be 362 00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:41.880 discounted as a contributor, the rates are so high when you match certain elements 363 00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:45.960 of someone's DNA, So if he matches on some of these, what's going 364 00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:52.279 on with the inability to rule him out? I'm not entirely sure. It 365 00:26:52.359 --> 00:26:56.119 might just have to be with the quality of the evidence because it's so old 366 00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:59.279 and it's degraded, and it may have been cross contaminated. They may have 367 00:26:59.319 --> 00:27:03.319 found something like maybe some of the markers for ticker matches, but not all 368 00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:07.000 of them. And maybe it's because they don't have a full DNA sample that 369 00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:11.240 they can't say, well, it's definitely not him, or it's definitely him. 370 00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:14.839 But yeah, this has only come about in recent years when DNA testing 371 00:27:14.920 --> 00:27:18.119 has advanced a lot. But I guess they just weren't able to get like 372 00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:22.960 a conclusive match, so they and it's not like they have to arrest him 373 00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:26.319 and take him a trial because he's long dead at this point. So the 374 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:29.920 fact that they said that the match was not strong enough to announce that he 375 00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:33.640 was the killer leads me to believe that there's still plenty of reasonable doubt. 376 00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:36.839 That's true too. But you did have the other two men that the DNA 377 00:27:37.160 --> 00:27:40.039 was cleared. I mean they said, no, you are not a contributing 378 00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:44.000 factor. And so it's interesting to have another suspect where they say we can't 379 00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:48.240 rule him out. It's like, oh my goodness, I guess it all 380 00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:51.640 depends on DNA markers and how many of them are a match. Do we 381 00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:56.799 know much about his personality because to rule him in, to think that, 382 00:27:56.920 --> 00:28:00.079 like, is this the type of person that could in cool blood, I 383 00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:03.680 guess in Colder Blood, which was the name of the book that was written 384 00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:07.759 about this case later on. But to be able to kill a family of 385 00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:11.799 four with two children, like one of them just under two years old, 386 00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:17.039 the other three years old, to do that and then to show up and 387 00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:22.400 to meet your friend for dinner and then go play violin in an orchestra and 388 00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:26.359 to see they obviously would have talked to the people around him and said, 389 00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:29.799 did he seem phased? Was he panicked? And I think that it would 390 00:28:29.799 --> 00:28:34.400 shake most people to their core, even if you're unless you're a psychopath, 391 00:28:34.519 --> 00:28:41.599 I can't imagine a situation where you wouldn't be showing some kinds of outward signs 392 00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:47.000 of being very affected by the actions that you had taken in order to end 393 00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:49.799 the life of a family of four. Yeah. That's the thing about Tooker 394 00:28:49.960 --> 00:28:53.960 is that he's definitely alleged like he has a history of inappropriate behavior, But 395 00:28:55.119 --> 00:28:59.359 I haven't heard anything about him having a history of violence. And he's sixty 396 00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:02.160 five years old this point, so it's just kind of crazy that he could 397 00:29:02.200 --> 00:29:04.799 live a normal life and then while he's a senior citizen, wipe out an 398 00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:10.319 entire family including two young children, and then just show no emotion about it 399 00:29:10.319 --> 00:29:12.759 whatsoever. So, I mean, there's a lot to think that took her 400 00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:17.079 could be the guy, but the crime is just so brutal and cold blooded 401 00:29:17.400 --> 00:29:21.039 that it just seems weird that someone with no known history of violence could just 402 00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:25.039 do this at such a late stage in his life. Ash, did you 403 00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:29.640 just shudder at the thought when you heard that this guy came to her house, 404 00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:33.039 Christine's home while her husband isn't there, and then proceeded to try to 405 00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:38.119 hit on her, not just one time, but two times, Yeah, 406 00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:42.359 multiple times. Has no respect for her boundaries, has no respect for her 407 00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:45.720 as a wife and mother, and just basically has the attitude that if I 408 00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:48.920 want it, I'm going to get it. That seems like what he's going 409 00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:52.680 to come to her home, He's going to force himself on her. I 410 00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:57.400 don't blame her husband for being like almost irrationally outraged, like leave my wife 411 00:29:57.400 --> 00:30:04.920 and my family alone. It crosses a horrific line and really violates Christine as 412 00:30:04.920 --> 00:30:08.359 a woman, And at the time, there's not a whole lot of attentionion 413 00:30:08.359 --> 00:30:11.079 around that. So she's sitting there, going, I have this man harassing 414 00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:15.519 me and physically coming on to me, and I really don't have a way 415 00:30:15.559 --> 00:30:19.640 to get him to leave me alone. Investigators were also contacted by the cousin 416 00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:25.000 of a man named Curtis McCall, who believed that Curtis may have been conducting 417 00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:30.640 a secret affair with Christine. Curtis was a former high school boyfriend of Christine's, 418 00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:33.960 and two weeks before the murder, while Cliff was away at a rodeo, 419 00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:38.000 Christine supposedly stopped by the home of one of Curtis's relatives in Arcadia to 420 00:30:38.039 --> 00:30:42.000 look for him. A couple of Christine's friends claimed she'd asked them how to 421 00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:48.640 terminate a pregnancy. Christine had actually experienced two miscarriages in nineteen fifty nine, 422 00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:52.240 so there was gossip about the possibility of her becoming pregnant with his secret lover, 423 00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:56.480 though the autopsy revealed she was definitely not pregnant at the time of her 424 00:30:56.519 --> 00:31:02.000 death. Curtis was also believed who have owned a twenty two caliber pistol. 425 00:31:02.599 --> 00:31:07.559 Was known for having a violent temper and reportedly appeared nervous and on edge following 426 00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:11.319 the murders. When he was interviewed by investigators, Curtis denied ever having an 427 00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:15.480 affair with Christine, and while he admitted to once owning a twenty two caliber 428 00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:19.480 pistol, he claimed to have since sold it to someone whose name he couldn't 429 00:31:19.480 --> 00:31:25.279 remember. Curtis was also given a polygraph test, and according to the results, 430 00:31:25.640 --> 00:31:30.759 the only question he answered which indicated deception was have you withheld any information 431 00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:36.960 from law enforcement officers about the Walker murders. There was ultimately no evidence to 432 00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:41.480 implicate Curtis, but when police attempted to track him down for DNA testing in 433 00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:45.759 two thousand and five, he could not be located. To be honest, 434 00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:49.119 that question opens up a lot of possibility. Have you withheld any information from 435 00:31:49.160 --> 00:31:52.920 law enforcement officers about the Walker murders? If I had just been on a 436 00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:57.000 polygraph test, or I had been talking to the police before the polygraph test 437 00:31:57.519 --> 00:32:02.160 and I had lied about my relationship with Christine, if I had lied about 438 00:32:02.440 --> 00:32:06.720 not knowing the man's name that I gave the gun, to those types of 439 00:32:06.759 --> 00:32:09.960 issues, and then they say have you withheld any information? Then I say 440 00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:15.119 no, It's possible. The way my brain works and body reacts that I'm 441 00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:17.160 admitting that, yes, I lied about something we talked about, but it 442 00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:22.000 could be a more minor personal thing that had nothing to do with the murders 443 00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:25.000 themselves and had to do with his dynamic with the family in general. I 444 00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:30.599 think it tells us more probably that he was likely asked did you murder the 445 00:32:30.680 --> 00:32:35.599 Walker family? And he didn't get deception on that because, like he said, 446 00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:37.720 ashe it could be anything that he could be hiding that he thinks could 447 00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:44.000 have contributed to the reason that they were murdered. It's just so difficult to 448 00:32:44.079 --> 00:32:46.160 know, right, I mean, like, did they say was she pregnant? 449 00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:49.599 Did you ever get her pregnant? And he says no, what if 450 00:32:49.640 --> 00:32:52.319 he had or what if he didn't know? And he's thinking like maybe, 451 00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:57.559 and he says no emphatically, and he's thinking on that question like, oh 452 00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:00.799 my gosh, I've lied about a couple things out of you know, pride 453 00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:05.119 and decency or respect for Christine or respect for her husband, whatever. And 454 00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:07.799 then it's going to show deception because yes, I've withheld information. I lied 455 00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:10.680 to you about a couple of things, but I didn't kill her and I 456 00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:14.160 don't know. It doesn't necessarily mean he knows who did kill her, but 457 00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:17.960 could have been deceptive about his story surrounding he and the family. There were 458 00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:22.240 a number of other interesting leads which went nowhere. Emmett Monroe Spencer, a 459 00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:27.440 convicted murderer on death row at Rayford Prison, sent a letter to police in 460 00:33:27.480 --> 00:33:31.079 which he confessed to the Walker murders. However, his confession was soon discredited 461 00:33:31.319 --> 00:33:36.559 once investigators determined that he was in California at the time the murders took place. 462 00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:40.559 Spencer was known for being a pathological liar, and while his confession contained 463 00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:45.960 enough accurate details about the crime to suggest he might be involved, it turned 464 00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:50.559 out he had learned this information from newspaper articles. This was an unfortunate side 465 00:33:50.559 --> 00:33:53.599 effect of the police using a news photographer to take pictures of the murder scene, 466 00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:58.759 as a number of these photos were published in the newspapers and featured enough 467 00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:02.480 details for Spencer to construct his false confession. In August of nineteen ninety four, 468 00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:07.079 an anonymous woman called the Sarasota County Sheriff's office who claimed to be a 469 00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:12.480 bartender from Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania. She said she was talking to one of her 470 00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:16.079 regular customers, whom she described as a retired white male in his sixties who 471 00:34:16.119 --> 00:34:20.880 worked odd jobs in the area. She said, he suddenly started crying, 472 00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:23.679 and when the woman asked what was wrong, the man supposedly told her that 473 00:34:23.719 --> 00:34:28.880 he had once killed some people named Walker in Osprey, Florida, many years 474 00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:31.920 ago. The woman said she would call back later with more information, but 475 00:34:32.039 --> 00:34:37.639 she never did, so this tip could not be verified. That is so 476 00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:42.559 bizarre because she's up in Pennsylvania and she says that one of her regulars comes 477 00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:47.639 in. She never gave them a name or any information. And I wonder 478 00:34:47.639 --> 00:34:52.239 if she was able to give any facts that made it quite specific to the 479 00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:54.519 murder. I mean, we know enough facts were out in the media because 480 00:34:54.519 --> 00:35:00.440 of this false confession by the death Rowan made at Rayford. But if there 481 00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:04.599 was a specific piece of information that she shared at the time, it would 482 00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:07.159 make it a valid informant. But at I don't know. It's all the 483 00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:10.840 way up in Pennsylvania, one of our regulars and she doesn't follow through. 484 00:35:12.280 --> 00:35:15.760 It makes me think she's either actually more in touch and more personal with the 485 00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:20.280 individual she's calling about, like a husband, a boyfriend, a dear friend, 486 00:35:21.079 --> 00:35:25.159 or she's reaching for something. Why would you not give the information if 487 00:35:25.159 --> 00:35:28.880 you were going to share it, unless you might have a dynamic with a 488 00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:34.880 person that made you worried or heavy about trying to share that information with police. 489 00:35:35.800 --> 00:35:37.800 And the weird thing about the possibility of this being a false tip is 490 00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:42.480 that this was nineteen ninety four, thirty five years after the murders, and 491 00:35:42.559 --> 00:35:46.039 it's the early stages of the Internet. So it's not like someone from Pennsylvania 492 00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:51.119 could just google about this murder, which took place in Florida decades earlier. 493 00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:55.239 So I don't know how widespread knowledge was about the Walker murders up in places 494 00:35:55.280 --> 00:36:00.000 like Pennsylvania during the nineteen nineties. So maybe she legitimately he did hear someone 495 00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:05.599 say they had killed someone in Florida named Walker, and maybe the person was 496 00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:07.800 lying, but she still thought it was an important enough tip to call. 497 00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:14.320 But then why would she hang up without providing more information. The most interesting 498 00:36:14.360 --> 00:36:20.519 development would take place in twenty twelve, when the Sarasota County Sheriff's Office announced 499 00:36:20.519 --> 00:36:24.480 that they were exploring the possibility that the Walker family murders might have been connected 500 00:36:24.519 --> 00:36:30.199 to another family, which also happened to be one of the most infamous crimes 501 00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:34.599 in American history. Many of you were probably already familiar with this story, 502 00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:38.440 but here's a quick refresher. During the early morning hours of November fifteenth, 503 00:36:38.519 --> 00:36:44.559 nineteen fifty nine, a pair of ex convicts named Perry Smith and Richard Hickock, 504 00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:50.000 who had recently been paroled from the Kansas State Penitentiary, entered a farmhouse 505 00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:53.760 located outside of Polcombe, Kansas. The occupants of the house were forty eight 506 00:36:53.880 --> 00:36:59.360 year old Herbert Klutter and his forty five year old wife Bonnie, along with 507 00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:04.199 their sixteen year old daughter Nancy and fifteen year old son Kenyon. The family 508 00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:08.400 were woken up by the intruders before they were bound and gagged well incarcerated. 509 00:37:08.440 --> 00:37:13.800 Smith and Hickock had been told by a fellow inmate that the Clutter family kept 510 00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:17.440 a large amount of cash inside a safe at their farmhouse, but this turned 511 00:37:17.480 --> 00:37:22.840 out to be untrue, as no such safe existed. The two men responded 512 00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:28.480 by slashing Herbert Clutter's throat and then shot every single member of the family in 513 00:37:28.519 --> 00:37:32.760 the head before fleeing the scene. Smith and Hiccock would remain fugitives for over 514 00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:38.079 a month before they were finally captured in Las Vegas on December thirtieth. Both 515 00:37:38.119 --> 00:37:44.159 men were subsequently convicted and sentenced to death for the murders before they were executed 516 00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:49.199 by a hanging on April fourteenth, nineteen sixty five. As you probably know, 517 00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:54.039 the case attained worldwide notoriety after noted author Truman Capodi published a book about 518 00:37:54.039 --> 00:37:59.400 it titled In Cold Blood, which remains one of the most highly read true 519 00:37:59.400 --> 00:38:02.719 crime books of all time. Now, given that the Walker family murders took 520 00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:07.480 place during the period of time when Smith and Hiccock were on the run, 521 00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:12.599 and there were a number of similarities with the Clutter family murders, investigators explored 522 00:38:12.639 --> 00:38:16.639 the possibility that the two men may have been responsible for both crimes. There's 523 00:38:16.679 --> 00:38:22.199 actually a brief section in Cold Blood where Capodi references the Walker murders, as 524 00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:27.719 Smith is described as reading about the crime in the newspaper and remarking to Hiccock 525 00:38:27.800 --> 00:38:31.599 that the murders or the Clutters may have inspired this. When Smith and Hiccock 526 00:38:31.599 --> 00:38:36.960 were questioned about the Walker murders, they admitted to having traveled through Florida, 527 00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:42.440 but denied ever visiting Sarasota County. Both men pass polygraphs, and In Cold 528 00:38:42.519 --> 00:38:46.800 Blood seems to imply that they were eliminated as suspects because they had solid alibis 529 00:38:46.840 --> 00:38:51.519 on the day of the crime. But in the years following its publication, 530 00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:55.480 a number of factual inaccuracies have been discovered in the book, putting these so 531 00:38:55.599 --> 00:39:00.239 called alibis. It's difficult to take anything from my book as saying, Okay, 532 00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:02.559 this is fact, right. I mean, it's a great book, 533 00:39:02.599 --> 00:39:07.159 but I could understand where you know, you're taking people's words for it. 534 00:39:07.239 --> 00:39:12.480 He's where did Capoti get all of his information? So I wouldn't hold the 535 00:39:12.559 --> 00:39:15.480 book as fact that these guys had a solid alibi. But I find it 536 00:39:15.559 --> 00:39:21.920 interesting that you have Christine was sexually assaulted, and it seems like her murder 537 00:39:22.039 --> 00:39:27.599 was very purposeful, and then the other ones were like getting rid of evidence, 538 00:39:27.679 --> 00:39:30.719 right, So a quick shooting of the husband and quick shooting of the 539 00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:34.599 son and drowning the daughter. It almost seems like the in Cold Blood there 540 00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:38.039 was more of a like they're tied up and they're looking for money, they're 541 00:39:38.039 --> 00:39:42.239 trying to get information out of the family. They to me, they feel 542 00:39:42.360 --> 00:39:47.559 very different, where one is a like either sexually motivated and emotionally motivated goal 543 00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:52.599 towards Christine and the family had to die as a collateral versus, we're tying 544 00:39:52.639 --> 00:39:54.360 this family up for a purpose of this robbery, and then we're going to 545 00:39:54.440 --> 00:39:58.440 execute people so we don't get caught. To me, I see them as 546 00:39:58.519 --> 00:40:01.519 very different. It is true that the Clutter family murders were probably done out 547 00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:06.000 of frustration, because both these men were under the pulse impression that they were 548 00:40:06.079 --> 00:40:07.480 going to get rich and that there was a safe in the house, and 549 00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:10.400 when they found out that this was a lie, they took it out on 550 00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:15.400 the family and murdered all of them. But I know that the mos do 551 00:40:15.559 --> 00:40:20.360 seem a bit different. But I definitely could see Smith and Hitcock murdering another 552 00:40:20.440 --> 00:40:23.079 family if they were desperate enough, because they were two of the most wanted 553 00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:27.599 fugitives in the United States at that time, so if they had the opportunity 554 00:40:27.639 --> 00:40:30.360 to steal anything from the Walker residence, I could see them going through with 555 00:40:30.440 --> 00:40:35.000 it. I mean, there isn't anything definitive, but it does seem like 556 00:40:35.079 --> 00:40:38.199 quite a coincidence that we have these two separate family murders, which all took 557 00:40:38.199 --> 00:40:42.960 place within a month of each other, and these two killers could be placed 558 00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:47.760 in both areas at both times, and I think that motivations could change a 559 00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:52.519 little bit from Okay, I think we're going to get rich to that of 560 00:40:52.719 --> 00:40:58.800 desperation, possibly coupled with a sexual motivation, which we'll talk more about with 561 00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:04.280 Hiccock later. There is that possibility there, I think, because when they 562 00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:08.400 started out they'd been parolled, and when if they had committed the Walker murders, 563 00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:12.719 they would have been on the lamb, so they would be desperate for 564 00:41:13.159 --> 00:41:17.079 things like any type of money, food, cigarettes, things like that, 565 00:41:17.320 --> 00:41:22.320 a place that they could just rest their head for a second. So it 566 00:41:22.360 --> 00:41:25.119 could be that they started off with the one motivation and then as time went 567 00:41:25.159 --> 00:41:30.599 on and desperation grew, their motivation kind of morphed into something else. The 568 00:41:30.679 --> 00:41:35.679 timeline from in Cold Blood is that Smith and Hickock spent the evening of December 569 00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:38.599 the eighteenth, nineteen fifty nine, sleeping in their car parked by the side 570 00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:44.280 of the road near the Alabama Florida border. They then traveled through Florida the 571 00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:49.039 following day and spent the evening of December the nineteenth at a hotel in Tallahassee, 572 00:41:49.719 --> 00:41:52.599 but in actuality records showed that the two men had checked into a hotel 573 00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:58.119 in Miami Beach on December the eighteenth and pay for one week's stay in advance, 574 00:41:58.599 --> 00:42:01.880 and no witnesses could confirm having seen them in Tallahassee until the twenty first. 575 00:42:02.840 --> 00:42:07.559 On the morning of December nineteenth, Smith and Hickock decided to check out 576 00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:10.800 of the Miami Beach Hotel, even though management refused to give them a refund 577 00:42:10.800 --> 00:42:15.320 on the additional days they had already paid for. Miami is located over two 578 00:42:15.400 --> 00:42:21.039 hundred miles southeast of Osprey, but the two men would be spotted in Sarasota 579 00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:24.599 County later that day, as they were seen purchasing items from a Sarasota department 580 00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:30.360 store located only a few miles away from the Walker residence. The following day, 581 00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:34.760 the owner of a gas station just outside of Arcadia claimed that two men 582 00:42:34.840 --> 00:42:38.960 driving in nineteen fifty six Chevrolet Bellaire stopped to ask for directions. He would 583 00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:43.880 later identify the two men as Smith and Hickcock, who were driving a stolen 584 00:42:43.960 --> 00:42:47.519 Chevy bel Air at that time. But what's most interesting is that the witness 585 00:42:47.559 --> 00:42:52.639 described Hiccock as having a badly scratched up face. Now this car is a 586 00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:58.360 very important detail because, as you recall, Cliff Walker had been planning to 587 00:42:58.400 --> 00:43:01.639 trade in his family car and frequented some used car lots on the day he 588 00:43:01.719 --> 00:43:07.360 was killed, and one vehicle he expressed interest in was in nineteen fifty six 589 00:43:07.480 --> 00:43:13.360 Chevrolet, So theoretically Smith and Hiccock could have gained access to the Walker home 590 00:43:13.840 --> 00:43:16.760 under the pretense of arranging a trade for their car. When the two men 591 00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:21.719 were arrested, one of them was carrying a pocket knife which was similar to 592 00:43:21.760 --> 00:43:24.639 the one which was stolen from Cliff Walker, and on Christmas Eve of that 593 00:43:24.719 --> 00:43:30.280 year, Smith and Hickcock sold two dolls wrapped in Christmas paper to a local 594 00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:35.119 minister. There was speculation that these dolls may have originally been intended as Christmas 595 00:43:35.159 --> 00:43:38.480 presents for Debbie and have been lying under the Walker's Christmas tree before they were 596 00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:45.119 stolen. It really has you put things in perspective where there seems to be 597 00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:52.679 opportunities where you do have these two men with different things, like the dolls 598 00:43:52.679 --> 00:43:55.559 are very bizarre. Why would these two men have access to dolls? Like 599 00:43:55.599 --> 00:44:00.880 why would they go buy those? That car is very highly concerning, And 600 00:44:01.039 --> 00:44:05.559 the fact that they're lying about where their locations were, like why would you 601 00:44:05.599 --> 00:44:08.679 lie about that you paid for these hotels? You found at other hotels. 602 00:44:08.800 --> 00:44:14.599 I mean, it's very confusing. They're a whereabouts back and forth. It 603 00:44:14.599 --> 00:44:19.039 seems like they're very sporadic and very unorganized. Yeah, exactly. And I 604 00:44:19.039 --> 00:44:22.480 could see them just happen to drive through Ausbrey that day, in crossing paths 605 00:44:22.519 --> 00:44:27.639 with the Walker and then deciding to make an arrangement to trade cars, and 606 00:44:27.679 --> 00:44:30.039 then thinking, hey, this is a good opportunity. They have an isolated 607 00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:35.480 farmhouse that is miles away from anyone else. This is a perfect opportunity to 608 00:44:35.559 --> 00:44:37.880 pull off some sort of murder. And like Jules talked about, since their 609 00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:42.639 wanted fugitives trying to evade the lock, they could have been desperate enough to 610 00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:46.320 try anything, even though obviously the Walkers were not a wealthy family and they're 611 00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:50.519 not going to get a large haul. If they decide to rob them, 612 00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:54.199 they could have run into them. Maybe they had the original plan in case 613 00:44:54.239 --> 00:44:58.440 somebody would recognize the vehicle that they were in. Maybe they wanted to go 614 00:44:58.480 --> 00:45:01.000 to a used car lot at extreme their vehicle. They could have met the 615 00:45:01.039 --> 00:45:05.280 Walkers there and then made a later plan to go to their home and said, 616 00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:08.119 well, this is where it's located. Because just something about the crime 617 00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:13.119 says to me that there's two people, and I think part of it is 618 00:45:13.159 --> 00:45:16.960 that whoever decided to go and sexually assault Christine obviously knew that there was other 619 00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:21.679 people that lived there, and they felt comfortable enough. She probably said my 620 00:45:21.800 --> 00:45:24.760 husband's coming home, like I'm sure that she would have, because to put 621 00:45:24.760 --> 00:45:29.880 myself in that position, if you're scared and somebody's attacking you, you're going 622 00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:31.880 to say, like you should leave, my husband's coming home. So this 623 00:45:31.960 --> 00:45:36.480 person likely would have been aware of this fact. And the fact that they 624 00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:39.440 then go and take her to the room and sexually assault her makes me think 625 00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:45.280 that you feel comfortable enough that somebody else is watching that front door. Yeah, 626 00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:47.599 that's what I'm thinking, because if they had encountered the walkers in town, 627 00:45:47.679 --> 00:45:52.079 they obviously know that the husband and the children are going to come back 628 00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:57.039 eventually, So for one of them to feel comfortable enough to commit sexual assault, 629 00:45:57.039 --> 00:46:00.039 that would make more sense if they had backup. And of course no 630 00:46:00.119 --> 00:46:02.519 other detail is that they found a thirty two slug at the scene which did 631 00:46:02.599 --> 00:46:07.480 not match any of the other bullets, which could point to the possibility that 632 00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:12.880 there were two guns used by two different people. One reason that Smith and 633 00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:17.039 Hiccock did not seem like promising suspects during the initial investigation. Is that the 634 00:46:17.119 --> 00:46:22.400 unidentified fingerprints found on the bathtub faucet in the Walker residence did not match either 635 00:46:22.440 --> 00:46:27.320 of them. But like we mentioned earlier, it now seems likely that these 636 00:46:27.320 --> 00:46:31.239 fingerprints were actually palm prints. And of course, while polygraph tests were given 637 00:46:31.400 --> 00:46:37.320 a lot more weight sixty five years ago, modern investigators are well aware of 638 00:46:37.400 --> 00:46:40.440 how unreliable they are, so they did not put much stock into the fact 639 00:46:40.440 --> 00:46:46.000 that both men passed when they were originally questioned. Following their execution, Smith 640 00:46:46.039 --> 00:46:52.440 and Hiccock were buried at Mount Munsey Cemetery in Lansing, Kansas, so this 641 00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:58.480 Arizonta County Sheriff's Office made arrangements to exhume their bodies. They hoped to extract 642 00:46:58.519 --> 00:47:01.559 some mitochondrial DNA from the bones to see if it matched any of the semen 643 00:47:01.679 --> 00:47:07.360 evidence from Christine's underwear. While in August of twenty thirteen, the Sheriff's office 644 00:47:07.400 --> 00:47:13.599 announced that the results were inconclusive. DNA was taken from Smith's feamer bone and 645 00:47:13.679 --> 00:47:16.559 it did not match the DNA from the seamen, but only a partial DNA 646 00:47:16.679 --> 00:47:22.119 profile could be extracted from Hickock's remains, and since the samples from the murder 647 00:47:22.119 --> 00:47:25.920 scene were old and degraded, it could not be conclusively determined if Hickcock's DNA 648 00:47:27.199 --> 00:47:30.639 was a match or not. It's worth noting that during the Clutter Family murders, 649 00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:35.760 Hickcock had made an attempt to rape the teenage shod Or Nancy, but 650 00:47:35.840 --> 00:47:39.639 Smith intervened and prevented this. If both these men were responsible for the Walker 651 00:47:39.719 --> 00:47:45.320 murders, Hickock likely would have been the one who sexually assaulted Christine, So 652 00:47:45.400 --> 00:47:49.719 the fact that Smith was excluded as being the source of the seamen's sample did 653 00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:53.360 not necessarily rule him out as being involved in the crime. In spite of 654 00:47:53.360 --> 00:47:59.480 these inconclusive results, Smith and Hiccock are still both considered to be viable suspects. 655 00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:02.679 It goes back to that original investigation where you have things where they're looking 656 00:48:02.679 --> 00:48:06.360 for a fingerprint to match, and if it was a palm print, then 657 00:48:06.400 --> 00:48:09.559 you're never going to find a fingerprint that matches the palm print. And when 658 00:48:09.599 --> 00:48:15.599 you do look at the idea that one of these suspects was sexually aggressive and 659 00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:20.639 almost raped the teenager at the other home, and then He's the one who 660 00:48:20.679 --> 00:48:23.719 they can't rule in or out as the DNA contributor that is highly concerning. 661 00:48:24.719 --> 00:48:30.760 In a surprising turn of events, Cliff Walker's niece contacted investigators in November of 662 00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:36.440 twenty twelve and revealed that Cliff and Christine's marriage certificate had turned up among some 663 00:48:36.519 --> 00:48:40.000 items which were recently given to her by relative. It's not entirely clear how 664 00:48:40.039 --> 00:48:45.119 the marriage certificate wound up there, but this development seemed to indicate that it 665 00:48:45.159 --> 00:48:50.159 was not actually stolen by the killer. In twenty eighteen, the Sarasona County 666 00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:53.920 Sheriff's Office announced that they were going to attempt to use genetic genealogy in hopes 667 00:48:53.920 --> 00:48:59.119 of turning up a match to the DNA evidence. However, in recent years, 668 00:48:59.400 --> 00:49:04.679 investigator have realized that some of the DNA found on Christine's underwear was similar 669 00:49:04.679 --> 00:49:08.400 to an incomplete DNA sequence belonging to Christine, which was collected from her dress. 670 00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:15.159 This meant that cross contamination had likely taken place, and Christine's DNA wound 671 00:49:15.199 --> 00:49:19.159 up being mixed with the DNA belonging to her killer. In other words, 672 00:49:19.480 --> 00:49:22.800 all the DNA testing which have been performed over the years was now meaningless as 673 00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:28.960 it did not prove or disprove any of the suspects culpability. Just last year, 674 00:49:29.360 --> 00:49:32.559 Cliff and Christine's remains were exhumed and sent to a private lab as there 675 00:49:32.639 --> 00:49:37.079 is hope that their DNA can be identified and removed from the mixture found in 676 00:49:37.159 --> 00:49:43.679 Christine's underwear. This would hopefully allow scientists to extract the killer's genetic code from 677 00:49:43.719 --> 00:49:47.559 the sperm cell evidence and upload it to an ancestry website for the purposes of 678 00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:52.760 genetic genealogy. However, as far as I can tell, this is yet 679 00:49:52.760 --> 00:49:57.480 to take place, so after nearly sixty five years, the Walker family murders 680 00:49:57.519 --> 00:50:01.880 continued to remain unsolved. So I guess you could say the path went Chile. 681 00:50:04.199 --> 00:50:07.960 It would be hopeful that now with the technology we have, that they 682 00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:13.159 could separate the male and the female contributor in a mixed or contaminated sample, 683 00:50:13.559 --> 00:50:16.679 but who knows if that's possible. In this situation, it does make you 684 00:50:16.719 --> 00:50:21.920 want to go back to the man who had not been ruled out. He 685 00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:27.519 couldn't be conclusively excluded, but he wasn't a direct match, and wondering well 686 00:50:27.639 --> 00:50:31.119 were certain markers of his present and so were Christine's and that's why he wasn't 687 00:50:31.119 --> 00:50:35.360 a one hundred percent match. Yeah, that's what I was thinking of as 688 00:50:35.400 --> 00:50:38.519 well with Wilbur Tooker, is that they just simply said that the results were 689 00:50:38.519 --> 00:50:43.360 inconclusive, but he could not be excluded. So it's possible that some of 690 00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:46.719 the markers did match. But if the markers that didn't match actually belonged to 691 00:50:46.840 --> 00:50:52.320 Christine rather than the killer, that's why they could make a definitive conclusion. 692 00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:55.360 So it would be interesting to see if this is successful and they were able 693 00:50:55.400 --> 00:51:00.400 to extract the Killer's DNA and retested it against Hooker's d would it be a 694 00:51:00.440 --> 00:51:05.199 more complete match. So I think this would be a good time to bring 695 00:51:05.199 --> 00:51:07.719 it into Part one. But join us next week as we present part two 696 00:51:07.760 --> 00:51:13.679 of our series about the Walker family murders. Robin, do you want to 697 00:51:13.719 --> 00:51:16.039 tell us a little bit about the Trail Went Cold Patreon? Yes, The 698 00:51:16.039 --> 00:51:20.599 Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three years now, and we offer these 699 00:51:20.639 --> 00:51:25.320 standard bonus features like early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers 700 00:51:25.360 --> 00:51:30.599 and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up with us on Patreon if 701 00:51:30.599 --> 00:51:35.840 you join our five dollars tier Tier two. We also offer monthly bonus episodes 702 00:51:35.840 --> 00:51:39.239 in which I talk about cases which are not featured on The Trail Went Cold's 703 00:51:39.239 --> 00:51:44.440 original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon and if you join our highest tier, 704 00:51:44.480 --> 00:51:46.920 Tier three, the ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer 705 00:51:47.159 --> 00:51:52.320 is a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsawved Mysteries, where you can 706 00:51:52.360 --> 00:51:58.599 download an audio file and then moot up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon 707 00:51:58.639 --> 00:52:02.119 Prime or YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in the background, 708 00:52:02.199 --> 00:52:07.719 where I just provide trivia and factoids about the cases featured in this episode. 709 00:52:07.920 --> 00:52:12.000 And incidentally, the very first episode that I did a commentary track over was 710 00:52:12.039 --> 00:52:15.280 the episode featuring this case. So if you want to download a commentary track 711 00:52:15.320 --> 00:52:20.159 in which I make more smart ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure 712 00:52:20.199 --> 00:52:22.119 to join Tier three. So I want to let you know a little bit 713 00:52:22.159 --> 00:52:27.199 about the Jewels and Nashty Patreons. So there's early ad free episodes of The 714 00:52:27.239 --> 00:52:30.480 Path Went Chili. We've got our Pathwent Chili mini's, which are always over 715 00:52:30.519 --> 00:52:34.199 an hour, so they're not very mini, but they're just too short to 716 00:52:34.239 --> 00:52:37.159 turn into a series and we're really enjoying doing those, so we hope you'll 717 00:52:37.199 --> 00:52:40.760 check out those patreons. We'll link them in the show notes. So I 718 00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:44.679 want to thank you all for listening, and any chance you have to share 719 00:52:44.760 --> 00:52:47.800 us on social media with a friend or to rate and review is greatly appreciated. 720 00:52:47.920 --> 00:52:52.519 You can email us at the Pathwentchili at gmail dot com. You can 721 00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:55.159 reach us on Twitter at the Pathwin. So until next time, be sure 722 00:52:55.159 --> 00:53:00.599 to bundle up because cold trails and chili pass call for warm clothes. Music 723 00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:02.480 by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy