Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Wildish, your host.
I'm real excited about tonight's show. We have doctor Jacques Valet on for the
first half hour, and we have a gentleman named Alan Stibleman coming on after
that. We're gonna be talking about a film that was made about a very
important Argentinean case. And the name of the movie that's coming out on October
twenty second is called Witness of Another World, and I have watched it myself
and it's a great movie. Now, as far as our guests, Jacques
Valet probably doesn't need much of an introduction in the UFO world, I would
have to say this that for all the guests I could ever have on the
show, I would say that he is the number one guest that I'm excited
about having on. So welcome to the show, Jack, Thank you.
I'm humbled by by that introduction. Sometimes I joke that I'm the only only
euchologists who doesn't know what UFOs are. Because I've studied, as you know,
a lot of cases, going back to working with doctor Heineck of course,
and and also working with people in France and in Europe. I don't
have a favor in explanation. Obviously, the outer space extractor. Restrial explanation
is always a possibility, it's always there. But I've occasionally made enemies by
pointing out there were other things that the phenomenon did that did not didn't match
any any hypothesis we have yet, which is where science takes over. I
mean, that's why it's interizing. I think that's that's true. I remember
when we met and Phoenix, we were in line together at the hotel and
I said to you something along the lines that I've been doing my show for
a number of years now and I know less than I did about UFOs,
and when I started, it just seems like it's such a mystery. And
I really like that you don't have anyone explanation. And that's kind of the
benefit of doing this show is hearing people's ideas, because that's really all they
are at this point is just ideas. Well. We see new ideas,
fortunately, kay, but we also see new new pieces of data, a
new phenomena that are being uncovered as more and more people become involved. And
that's uh, you know, that's how research functions, right right for now,
you you had a sighting very early on in your life over in France.
Do you want France? Do you want to talk a little bit about
that? And just kind of give go ahead. This was the year after
a major wave over western Europe in nineteen fifty four. I was about sixteen
at the time. This was during the summer vacation. Very clear afternoon,
Sunday afternoon. I was helping my father with some work inside the house,
and my mother was in the yard tending to you know, the yard,
and she so at first and us and I rushed out and I saw essentially
a disc that was something like half a mile away I would estimate close to
and I had a reference as a church, a needle, you know,
that was very very clearly about half a mile away, and the object seemed
to be in that vicinity above the church. The next day I spoke to
a friend of mine from school who lived another half mile up the hill from
me. He had seen the same thing and had looked at it with Binoculus,
who had three witnesses. It was. It looked like a shiny disc
with a domont up, you know, pretty much what so many people have
described. And at the time we didn't report it. There was no real
place to report it, and we saw that it might be a pototype of
something that would eventually become known, and of course that never happened. There
is no such there is no such craft in existence frying around today, right
right. Um. You know that's one of the arguments you hear a lot
as far as you know, people will talk today about seeing, for instance,
the nimitsum Ufo case of TikTok Ufo. People will say, well,
that's you know, that's that's military. But these things have been having this
same type of behavior, you know, going way back as you know,
And you know, that's one of the arguments you never hear too many people
talk about is that, you know, these strange uh craft doing unbelievable things
have been around for a long time. And you know, one of the
things you hear about the most or I don't want to say the most,
but you do hear a lot of as the triangle UFOs, and there's you
know, there's cases that go way back. I just spoke to someone recently
that back in the nineteen seventies saw a triangle. You know, it was
her words, not mine, you know, So they it's not like they're
a new model that comes out. But the disc sir, sure seemed like
um most people were seeing back in the day. Well, I know,
you know you're going to be speaking with Alan Siebelman about that movie that was
done in about the case in Argentina. That's what is so unique about that
case is that there is no you know, it's not military, doesn't have
to do with you know, the CIA or cover up or an aircraft carrier
or the Pentagon or any of that that we like to talk about, you
know in the US. It's a case of a you know, a young
boy, twelve year old boy on an isolated farm. It was very flat,
non descript out of the country, suddenly being confronted with something completely extraordinary.
There is no there is no explanation. I mean, this was not
military, this was not a hoax, this was not any of that.
And we were able to document the circumstances extremely well. And what is unique
in the whole history of the phenomenon is that we were able to document his
life, what happened to him in the rest of his life, right and
including things that continued, phenomena that continued when he was an adult. Right
now in the area that one was located. Most likely he had never even
heard of any type of situation like that or at the time, no.
And I had met people from Argentina at a conference actually in Mexico, and
they had invited me to lecture in five cities in Argentina and they said,
by the way, you have to lecture in Spanish, which sent me back
to my books and made me. You know, re relearned enough Spanish so
that I could do a reasonable job of presenting presenting the phenomenon. But then
I said, if I do that, I want to spend one extra day,
have a free day after each lecture in every As you know, Argentina
is a very large country. It's the size of Western Europe, and there
were these five different regions, were very different, and they agreed to let
me meet local investigators UFO investigators in those different provinces, spending an extra day
everywhere before he moved to the next city. And that was extraordinary because of
course I was exposed to a lot of different phenomena, a lot of different
cases that they had already investigated, and this was one of them. And
this was in the north of Argentina, in the province called Entre rios between
the rivers, which is really in the it's purely and agricultural area is very
flat, and this happened on an isolated farmhouse, isolated and fancier, where
this young boy was charged with taking care of the horses. And in the
morning he had to round up the herd and bring them close to the farmhouse
to feed them and so on. And as he went out there was a
lot of fog over the land and in the was this extraordinary object. Now
I met him two years after his experience. So by the time I met
him, he was fourteen. My wife was with me, and my wife
was French. She was a child psychologist. And also the school teacher from
the school where the child went was with the family. They gathered everybody,
so the investigators were there the family. I met his father, his mother,
his siblings, and the school teacher and my wife has a code a
conversation with the school teacher. And the child was a good student. He
wasn't the best student in the class. That he was still very serious,
very applied, didn't fly, didn't make up stories. And by the way,
when you met his father, who was a true gout show, that
was pretty clear that you would joke around around his father. I know there's
a there's a part in the movie where he is I think he actually goes
to some type of conference or meeting or something like that, and it comes
time for him to tell his story and he just gets super emotional and he
just can't do it. You just bring it down. Yes, the whole
movie shows That's what I know is very powerful because it shows something that you
know, we don't talk about very much in the literature, but the impact
on the witness that this is something that's completely outside their reality. And by
the way, it's outside our reality, our everyday reality. And I know
just what I saw when I was you know, when I was a kid
has stayed with me all my life. It probably motivated me to to get
into this kind of research. And I know many people who were motivated the
same way. And here Alan contacted me. Alan is a young, you
know, young filmmaker, an artist in Argentina. He contacted me three years
ago saying he had was working on some other ideas and had met this man,
who by then was in his late fallies up in an isolated shark essentially
a cabin at north in Argentina. Living essentially alone with his animals, very
close to nature, very poor, hiring himself out to local landowners and local
farmers to work around the farm. And he had this incredible story, and
it was a story that I had. I had published a summary of it
in one of my books, in a book called Revelations. And Alan wanted
to come to San Francisco and interview me about you know, what it was
like when I met the family here, and I met this this teenager who
had had that experience, And I said, well, Alan, do you
know about the other cases the same week in the same town. And he
said, what other cases, Well, there were three other cases by adults,
young adults in the same town of then adult Erto and that I had
documented in my report. And I said, well, let's do two things.
First, I'm going to send you my five the whole file, which
was about twenty or twenty five pages, including photographs I had taken at the
time, and my interview of everybody there. And then I said, if
I could come to Buenos Aires, we could close the circle with him,
and maybe the encounter with me coming back from his past would help reunite the
family, because by then he was ostracized, he was pushed back by the
family because his experience was so strange, and also, you know, help
him sort of closer circle in his own mind. And it would also help
me because this was very emotional to me. And you'll see that in the
movie. You know, I'm not I'm not a movie actor, and you
can see that. I was very, very moved in meeting him again and
in revisiting the family, and I think we did a great job of helping
him. And I think you were to see in the movies his transformation from
you know, being hunted by the phenomenon which is still around him, and
then emerging from it with much more confidence. Son, And that's that's really
what the movie is all about, right, And this dramatic situation that he
had at sung at such a young age, you know, I imagine in
some ways rather stunted him. And um, you know, he he became
he becomes emotional quite a few times, um during the movie. But you're
right, you can see a transformation. And I really like when the story
focuses on the people, and I think Allan did a very nice job with
that. I'd like to quote a paraphrase because I don't know it exactly,
but there was a line you said, um during this movie such as,
um, we see things as kind of a display, an exhibition of images.
Uh. Back from like your background of subconscious Um, that's one of
the thoughts you have on what people are seeing. Would you mind explaining that
just a little bit, a little bit, yes, you know the by
doctor Salisbury in Utah who has done so much. Professor Salisbury wrote a book
about the sightings in northern Utah, and he was of course a professor of
biology at Utah State that in the University of Utah who did really the first
very thorough assessment of the sightings there, including the Eye of the famous ranch
by the way, and his book was called the utah Ufo Display because he
the people that he interviewed, both the you know, people from the moment
population and the Indian population in Utah, were describing something that wasn't so much
mechanical. You know, we like to think in terms of technology, like
you know, around the limits and so one. But those things can really
display themselves in a whole variety of different things as if they could they could
paint an image of themselves and they can look technological one moment and then turn
into just a ball of light that goes through a wall. And this is
not any any technology we have, Okay, this is so that idea of
the display is very important and you have to go beyond the obvious technological interpretations.
And before I went to so Alan agreed to that I could come to
Argentina instead of his coming to San Francisco, and I spent about ten days
there. But before I when there, I relearned enough Spanish so that I
could speak one on one with one and you'll see that in the movie Their
Parts, where the shows the two of us together. Because I didn't want
to get into that aspect of it with an interpreter. I wanted to hear
his own words and I wanted to speak with him in his own language because
it's just so, you know, so important, and I think that helped
us also in closing that circle that I was. You know, I wanted
to be really close, following his emotions, and you know, I don't
cry as easily as he as he does, but then I haven't had that
kind of experience, but it was obviously emotional for me as well, right
right, Yes, I was actually pretty impressed with your Spanish and you did
pretty well. And I will tell the listener that watching the movie, don't
feel it's a hindrance to have this movie because in Spanish, because there is
some Spanish with subtitles, but the majority of the movie is in English.
Um so, and it's very easy to follow all the way through. And
some interesting people. Um did you re meet any of the people besides one
when you were there that you had met before? Well, I was delighted
to meet his family again, and it was wonderful to help that's not in
the movie, but to help reunite him in a way emotionally with his family
because the fact that we were there filming his experience and the fact that I
came back and they had they remembered me. His father and his mother are
still alive. Of course, his siblings are now you know, older,
they are adults, adults. So it helped reconnect in a way, reconnect
the family and I could to joke with his father and it was it was
wonderful. It was joyful, you know. Just to give you an anecdote,
and again it's not in the movie, but next part of the human
experience, his father has a felt hat, you know, like not exactly
a cowboy hat, but a gouge show hat. And I had a picture
I had brought my pictures of the days when I was there, you know,
thirty five years before, and he had had a hat the same heat.
So I told him self, miss sombrero, you know, it's the
same hat. And he laughed, and you know, it was just so
nice, you know that he laughed because it was the same hat. And
go out the little things, you know that you have to spend the time
you have to. And so often in the US, you know, when
when there is an investigation done, a couple of investigators go there and they
go there with a questionnaire and they fill out the questionnaire with the witness and
it's so very abstract and the scientific ecological, But those experiences are not logical.
They are not You have to deal with the emotion, you have to
deal with and then they never go back. And here, what's unique about
this is that we have this extended time and we have the testimony from different
people at different times of his life over really over forty years, and that
is a unique piece of testimony about the whole phenomenon. Do you think that
he would have had a total different life if this didn't happen. I mean,
like you mentioned, he's he's in a very remote area in this cabin,
and it looks like, you know, he he hunts and everything,
you know, for food and has his animals and gardens and things like that.
Do you think I noticed at the end he seemed to really enjoy being
around um, you know, family and in the village at the very end
of the movie. As oh, there is no question he felt as strange
from his family. And you know, so many witnesses go through that,
so many witnesses of close encounters. I remember, I remember the working with
doctor Heinek and interviewing some of the how we patrol people in the Midwest who
had encounters and abductions and being unable to stay in the police force and having
to resign. Uh you know, Learndizamor and so korro at that experience being
being ostracized because he was different. You know, he was a guy who
had seen the flying saucer and professionally that ruined his experience. And many of
these people went through divorces. Their neighbors would throw stones at their house.
I mean, they would be rejected, as you know, the guy who
has done something a little strange and brought this repute to the family or to
the town. So many I've seen that with so many witnesses, you know,
both in Europe, in France, but also in um you know,
suddenly in the US. And that's an aspect of it that nobody has looked
at, right, And the first thing that I have to do, as
you know, when I go to a site, and deal with the human
situation. Before you pull out the questionnaire and you know, the compass and
the cameras and so on, you have to deal with the people as human
beings. And very often they are hurt. They are hurt in their family,
they're hurting their friendships and in their professions. Right. Yes, I
remember watching some video, some documentary that was had taken place in either the
early sixties or late nineteen fifties, and there were people talking about their experiences
back then. And I remember there was a man that said, if one
landed right beside me, I wouldn't tell a soul after what I've gone through
so right, well, especially in the military, you know, there was
there wasn't an experience in uh in Minnesota, in my Not, the famous
my Not case B fifty two that had and I was like both on radar
and visually. And one member of the crew went to the back of the
aircraft in order not to see it. And his betty said, why don't
you want to look at it? And he said, well, you know,
I'm interviewing with an airline next week. I don't want to have to
say that I've seen a flying saucer. Wow, isn't he did not want
to see it? Yeah, yea. So the penalties in some of those
in the military and in the police force, the penalty for seeing something that's
unexplained and can be drastic. And what do you think about now? Do
you think things have changed ever since I mentioned earlier, ever since the article
came out in the New York Times, people seem to be more acceptable.
And I just wanted to get your take on that. I know you have
to go in a couple of minutes here, but well, I'm I'm okay.
That's wait for Aland and I'd like to say hi to him. Would
become you know, close friends. I wish I could say yes, things
have changed. I'm not so sure I can tell you things have not changed
very much. In the scientific community. People are afraid for their veputation,
they're afraid for their grants, for their budget, just almost as much today
as they did. There isn't the same stigma, but people still look at
you funny. Not so much in Silicon Valley because Silicon Valley is so strange
anyway, in really other ways, but in the scientific community in general.
And I think that's still true in the military, and I think maybe then
imits experience, we've changed links because so many of these pilots were highly respected
and everybody knows they're not lying, that's right. Yes, I think that's
made such headway. And you know, David Fraeber, some people have said
a couple of things lately since he was on Joe Rogan recently, but I
think I think there's absolutely no doubt about the quality of the witness that he
is and I think it has definitely made made a difference. And I would
say that's myself. I'd say that's one of the top cases just because of
um, you know what, what has happened with that, you know,
with it just seems to have moved things forward a bit. And I don't
know if that's you've probably seen things move forward many times and your long career
looking into this, and do you have hopes? I mean, I don't
think there should be a disclosure, so to say, but it just seems
more acceptable, you know what, what in a way of ironic, because
the US community has said this is great progress because Navy has requested testial testimony
and they are re reinstating the reporting. Well, yeah, you know,
I remember the days working with doctor Hideck on the Project Bluebook files. They
were hundreds of reports from the Navy. The Navy had a reporting sequence,
you know, reporting regulation that was parallel to uh JAN appened to the other
regulations of the of the Air Force, and they were reporting into Project blue
Book. The Air Force was the point of contact for all the arm forces.
And so I remember going through a number of cases from the Navy when
I built a database for Project blue Book, and the then they closed down
Project blue Book and the Navy went its own way that gathered in those cases
anymore, and now they are reinstating the same particle. That doesn't mean necessarily
a recognition of that these things are unexplained. It means a recognition that we
want to track or they want to track those things. That also means that
I'm not going to be made public. So I think it's a reverse of
what the US community is expecting. Absolutely, guess what we have Alan on
the line, Alan Stilverman, welcome to the show. Hey Martin, thanks
for having me. Hey Chad, good afternoon. Hey Como Stas. That's
the cbm akay in San Francisco. Yeah, let's let's just do the rest
of the show in Spanish. That really fun that Wabish French. Yeah,
I will let you talk to Alan. I know you're eager to talk to
him and get his side of the story. Well, well, Shark,
I'll tell you it's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much. I
really appreciate it because I've been told today that you don't go on too many
shows, and it's just I feel really honored and thank you. So this
movie is exceptional. So yes, all right, thank you very much.
All Right, you take care, Jacky bye, take care bye. All
right. Alan, So let me let's see. So you are a filmmaker,
and I think you know, watching this film, I was saying,
I think it was it was a very good film, and I was really
glad that when shark. You contacted him and he said, sure. You
know he got involved right away, which is that must have been really exciting
for you. It was. Indeed, I was shooting at that time.
I think it was in the middle of the shooting of this movie. And
then I got this idea to write him and send him like a letter telling
him about what we were doing with this film, what was the like the
message behind this story of One Paris. And I also told him that One
was not doing good. He was feeling really lonely after the encounter that he
had when he was twelve. He got some like gifts or curse because he
felt that the premonition dreams that he had it was more like a curse instead
of a gift, and he was really suffering because of these consequences that he
had. He also received mockery from his family, from his relatives, his
friends. And I didn't know that he would remember this case because Jack only
mentioned in two of his books, in Forbidden Science and in Confrontations. But
you know Jack, he read thousands and thousands of cases around the globe.
But I just gave that shot and I asked him to go to San Francisco
and do this interview. Jackie is a very low profiled person, so I
didn't want to interrupt his project. I just want to have his opinion about
the case and that's it. And he gave me the idea to go to
Argentina to stay with one to try to help him, and for me,
it was one of the most important gift in my life. And the movie
changed completely when he appeared, so it was a truly pleasure to have to
have him on board. Yeah, I totally get that. It must have
been quite amazing, right, everyone that set for the first part of the
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