Hell ho, ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to the Final Plan, the Apes
Retrospective. I am the clown Prince of Apes as always trust now I'm joined
by I'm the Donkey kirklmb Patzer, the Colonel taylor Field. Wow, there's
the Colonel. Eh, that's who you're going with? Why terrible man in
thee alliance with his ideal. He's iconic, iconic. There's gonna be shaving
his head with a straight razor after this. Two weeks from now, I'll
be like, you remember who the colonel is to the Colonel who I won't.
I won't say everybody else is iconic in this movie. But yes,
this is the last retro unless we ever do this as a full time job
and someone wants to do the TV show. Maybe one day we'll go around
and get there. But for the movies, this is it. Patreon Obviously,
when you're listening to this is months in event, so as always do
that. You can get other retrospectives like the Mad Max ones. We're about
to start Alien. That will be lots of fun and that will be our
retro. I think for the year there'll be some other one off like Beetlejuice
and I guess we're gonna do Strangers, so there's some good things coming.
But yeah, this year we're coming to it ann but you can get all
that stuff early if it's like, hey, you're getting this Beetlejuice retro at
this point. No, no, you can't get it months early. Don't
record yet, but we will be along with an ad free RSS feed.
Get multiple episodes that are exclusive depending which tear you're on, Call Nafnin which
is very fun. Geek firs Day will be happening in August. It sometimes,
so tune on the patron. There are lots of good stuff there and
interaction stuff you can do. So yeah, just head down a lot for
everything you need to know or plan the apes. I'm gonna again leave kirkle
Lass, but this time I'm gonna start with mister Field. What was your
experience watched this with? Well, I guess we kind we kind of know
this this one. We've heard molt any new people jumping in just the complete
same thing that you said. But isn't there like you should tell a story
of Is this the one that you didn't end up for on the review for
right? Nope, Briggs didn't end up on this review. I ended up
reviewing this with Dylan. What was the review that Dylan and Briggs reviewed it?
Without quiet place and no outside their house watching Netflix waiting for them to
tell me to come in, and they're like, oh, we did the
review, but you didn't want to join for I'm like, what the fuck?
So I went back and picked Madison from Rock Climbing. I was like,
this is a waste of time. Okay, so so not this one,
but okay there so yeah this. I went and saw this a few
days early with Briggs because we went to the theater and they did a whole
marathon. So it was the Mark Alberg one. Nice, it was,
yeah, the the other one. Yeah, if they put the Mark Ohlberg
one back in the theaters, anybody would buy a ticket to go see Oh
I get I for sure think that people would. I know I would.
I'd love to actually see it on the big screen. I'd go like,
there's a bunch right now, like Alien and Spidery, but they're not playing
here and I'm pissed about spider Man. I really am. I really want
to take the girls the first Jeraimi films. I'm fucking livid. Every day
I'm throwing shit at Grand Tan and sounded like a monkey myself. No Landmark
and the boom, Yeah, second time this week, just show the Spider
Man movie, you know. But yeah, this this film has so much
going for it. And I remember seeing it in theaters and just coming off
of the two first films and getting to this one, you're already emotionally unstable
and you're just a fucking wreck, like and this movie does not hold back.
It's just the score is beautiful. The moment I finished this movie,
I went and I bought the I Remember One on my iTunes store, and
I bought the whole soundtrack, the whole score, and I listened to it
still to this day. Let's say pretty consistently. There's a few tracks on
there album and go to once a month just to get it into my system
because it's just it hits, It really really hits. But is this is
because you talk about this thing so much? Was this the one that made
you like a massive stan like I know you like a lot of his work,
was it? But was it this one? Or is there a different
one like Rattoo or something in particular where you're like Okay, he's my guy.
Now, you know, this one for me, it was when I
heard up, I'm like, Okay, Giacchino, he's one of the he's
one of my guys. You know. Ah, this one definitely stood out,
and I think that I say, maybe that's when I maybe that's why
I realized. But no, hang on, hang on, I think there's
something else sky high, ah, because when did he do this one twenty
seventeen? This was twenty seventeen. This is twenty seventeen. And when did
you do Star Trek Into Darkness? How long ago was that? Was that?
Twenty thirteen? That's before this, I think, because like I think
I might have I don't know how to say it, because it's like this
movie. I think you're right. I seeing the name with the soundtrack probably
started to make me realize, like, okay, like his name is affiliated
with all these other tracks. And now when I'm older in retrospect, when
I look and see that he's had his hand in like Jurassic po and Star
Wars and Star Trek, yeah, Disney Pixar movies, he's had his hand
tapped on like a lot of major ips that I really really like. So
just he's fantastic. Yeah, this score is just great. But the characters
in this movie, some of them are hauntingly just terrifying. But there's such
a sweet undertone to this movie that I really really like, and I think
it ends on there is I think, so yeah, a sweet undertone that
that ends on a high note as sad, as bittersweet as it is,
but it is sweet nonetheless, that's a take. I think there's like sweet
moments, but like, I don't think this movie has a sweet undertone.
Do I think this movie is fucking fucking sweet. That kernel man ye such
a nice guy. Some us understood. Uh. So My story with this
one is I did see the theaters, but this is one where I was.
This came out July, and I remember it came out specifically July twelfth
to thirteenth, because I bought tickets. War said Maine whatever. Because at
that point I was a big fan, like I was still as a big
fan of apes, but we had never done apes on geek first and heard,
oh, they're doing the trilogy, you know, Matt Reeve's trilogy as
the thing. Get to see a couple of days. They's so great.
I could not wait to go watch these all again. Uh, but at
this time, my wife, you know, mother and my children was past
the do day, like it was, it was already passed, so it's
like it was already risk but it had been a couple of days already,
so I had these tickets, so I was holding out and she went into
labor a boat I think that very same day. I think it was in
the afternoon in the morning. And then I also never remembered to refund my
ticket, so I paid for this whole experience, never got a refund or
anything like that. But it's okay because I got the child and it all
worked out. But so that was my experience, and then I didn't end
up seeing it to like I think a month later with Kyle And Yeah,
this one's interesting because I feel like lots of people have varying opinions on this.
I think the biggest thing is I've heard ballied against. It is not
of the biggest one of us, Like it's called war for of planet's but
it's not really war film, which I kind of understand. I think for
me, I'm just much more on a positive outline where I do have more
issues with this one, but I don't like there's nothing major. I don't
have anything like, oh this really takes me out. This is a big
problem. This is a big step down. I just feel that it's like
a very different type of film. I feel like this one is actually closer
to The Batman than Dawn because I feel like this has that similar slow pace.
It's very kind of depressing at times. It's very not so much like
the macabness of The Batman and like the tone of like goth and not that,
but just like the pace is a very You're dealing with a character that's
very hurt and you're working things through with them. And to me, that's
where like when I watch them, I can't find any too much sweetness in
there, you know, like in the first act we suffer some really terrible
deaths, like right away, you know. And that's where again where I
was like, oh man, this guy can do Batman because like they pretty
much just make season and he makes the losses enough to go. But that's
where for me, Yeah, it's not necessarily it's about war, but this
is a revenge movie. It is still having to do with all the apes
and our characters, and you have the Kernel and the virus, like all
those things that were from the past. But this is a fully character study
about Caesar revenge film, like how far should you go to payback someone?
Right? What is the steps? What is the line? Where is your
you know, what can you sacrifice that doesn't even belong to you that should
be? And there's a lot of morality stuff. I fel like this is
the first time in the trilogy where you could always question Caesar, but this
is the first time he's making choices where he's like, ah, I don't
know in good ways where your question like I'd like, this is too far,
man, I think you gotta you gotta stop. And that's some of
the best places I love when they put our characters. When you put characters
that you really enjoy and they're making decisions that you don't know are right,
that's where that's where the money is in. I think movies and TV shows
and characters when it's like gray area of man, I see the point of
view that this could also go down some bad stuff. So no, I
love this movie. I still you know, have Dawn above it. So
for my many rankings, but this is this ranks high. This is again
just the film craftmanship, the acting, the directing, the writing, the
score, everything, some great visual some great moments, some surprising moments.
So no, I still I'm a big fan of this movie, more fan
than I think others, because I feel like lots of people look at three
a's like, oh yeah, it's not a big step down, but it's
definitely like a step down from two. I don't look at it that way.
I just look at like two is a better movie. But this is
still still great stuff from Reeves and the crew. So current Pats are again
this is your first time. As you revealed in Dawn, you watch them
back to back. So what were your thoughts on this one? Closing out
the trilogy and Caesar's story here, I had, like the Kill Bill Volume
one two affect this one one one complete film. Yeah, I like,
I don't want to be a downer or anything, but this one was a
noticeable step down actually for me earlier at Dawn. Yeah, I still had
a good time with this one. I think it is still especially comparing it
to some of the earlier Apes films, like not counting the very first one,
but man, like what a step up from fucking something like Beneath or
or those types of movies, Like it has some fantastic moments. It looks
so beautiful. I was, I was shouting out the like the jungle biomes
of the last movie, the whole winter scapes that we have in this one.
It just it goes so well. This movie. Also, I just
remember had like some of the best posters that they ever had, like just
just having Caesar on the horse with the gun on his back, with like
the little girl. I just love those visuals. It just especially like while
when I was seeing those, I hadn't seen Dawn or anything, so I'm
like, I don't know what the fuck's going on at this point in time
and the chronological order of the events. But no, I think I also
just had really high expectations for the film because I just remember those trailers being
so topped here, even though I didn't really know everything that was going on
the story wise, I thought the marketing for this movie was just so top
tier. Having Woody Harrelson as the villain I was really really intrigued by,
which I like, I was just so disappointed by that villain. Like man,
Woody Harrelson is Cone I don't want to say downhill, but like just
my recent viewing of his characters, I'm just really not, like, what
else is venom carnage? Like that's one of the worst things directed by circus.
You don't forget so like again, like it's probably pretty we got together
that he well, no, he didn't hire never mind, I'm wrong.
He didn't hire Woody Harrelson. That was in the first movie. So I
thought, because the connection of this, it's like, oh, I've worked
with it, you know what he I like, like, I'm directing Venom
too. But no, that was just like a happy accident. But and
like I get like, it's it's you know, two examples there, and
I'm probably hyperbolyzing by saying that, but it's just like recent memory. I
think my favorite Harrelson roles are like the earlier ones that I had seen of
him. I guess Zombie Zombie Land is a later one. Have you never
crossed off True Detective on your life? I've never seen True Defective. I
heard he's fantastic. You should put that hire on the list, just to
like rinse out the wood. What's what he's so great? You know that
is that stuff? I should do that because I I I do like him,
like I like again like in the comedies and stuff like I think he's
absolutely fantastic, but no, in this movie, I think maybe the the
coupling of a I had like just finished Dawn, which was just like ten
and a ten peak like okay, this like if Dawn is there, like
war has got to be just like another step up. And it really wasn't
for me. I I wasn't really super fond of the villain, which being
the Colonel. Also just like things, I don't know, can I say
spoilers at this point? I seen the movie you know, Come Come,
you know it's the killing off of blue Eyes, and and the mother was
just so fast and especially just kind of kind of the like blue Eyes is.
He's not the main pillar of the of Dawn, but like he is
in the movie quite a bit, And just coming from that movie, I'm
like, man, what's gonna happen now with blue Eyes? He's just gonna
be in such a more important role. They kill him off so quickly.
He goes out like fucking rouning the accuser just like a complete bitch that he's
supposed to against. It's like souped up call duties. It's like and take
out you know, a couple more humans, but Hoody Harrelson's turn into fucking
Jason Bourne. Here he's a cave diving like he's set. Like they got
some good ass shit these weapons. You know, that's not like I'm excited
to talk about this, because that's not things I've like. I've heard these
criticisms before, and I'm of two minds where I don't really have an answer,
and that's where I guess. I still like the film overall, So
I'm fine at the route they went because they that run is, yeah,
you killed off a character that you built up in the last movie very I
won't say nonchalantly, but it's like off screen, you just find his dead
body and you move on. And they don't make the new son, Cornelius,
like that much more of a character because he's still a child, right,
So you do lose a lot. But then at the same time,
for me, it's like, well, if you want to feel big loss,
that is, you know, because I feel like you can kill the
wife, but in these movies, I don't think the wife means as much.
Right. I don't know if you had to kill them both, but
I feel like that's where if you want to do the pitch of k he
no matter what, feels like he has to kill this guy. You got
to take someone big from him. So if he just kills like as bad
as it sounds like Maurice or Luca, like I think he kind of he
doesn't move on, but he can like process that where his son and his
daughter that's or his son of his wife. I feel like that's where it's
like, Okay, you understand, like if you were put yourself in that
perspective of you know, your wife and son get killed and you can get
the guy. It's gonna be tough, but you can get the guy,
would you? And that's where I'm up two minds where I completely get why
you and other people go, oh it is disappointing, But then I can
see the other side of well, how else would you make Caesar just so
obsessed with getting the colonel right, because if he just kills a couple other
apes, it's fine, But the wife and son, that's as it's not
the decision to kill them off, it's just the execution of it. Like
Luca, Luca had a more meaningful death than Blue Eyes here, and I
think that's just gonna bizarre but you know, it was a decision. We
had to have some sort of cause to get Sezer to go on this this
rampage of revenge. So that's fair. And again this might be something.
The more we talk about these specific moments, I like them a little bit
more that that's already happened, you know, on the Dawn. On the
Dawn retro, I had that happen once or twice, so that could kill
off And you know, I mentioned Luca even just there's a certain part of
this movie I just felt like we were losing characters. I thought Rocket was
gonna go out like really easily as well, and I was worried. I
was worried about that. I was actually impressed that they managed to save him.
I thought he was just gonna get destroyed by the Red Donkey in that
one moment and then that was just gonna be a death there, and like
like up until that point, it's like, well, of course they're going
to kill him off here. They killed Blue Eyes off so easily. They
just killed off Luca, Like it just seems like we're trying to kill off
members to just have our our little our crew here just just go down in
numbers to make it seem like like the Fellowship of just losing people and and
like to have some some significance on on theirmaining members. But I don't know,
it's it's just my initial reaction to to losing those characters was just like,
ah, that's not the best way to do it in my mind,
to war though, you know they're all dying and stuff. I'm actually surprised,
other than Maurice, that Rocket did make it because I thought with especially
now with Kingdom, we're jumping so far in the future. I don't think
we're gonna see Maurice, right. I don't know if we're gonna see Cornelius
because I don't think the main character is flashbacks, right, I imagine.
I don't think we're gonna like Cornelius. Could that even be an option because
that's not the name character than this one, right, Kingdom and someone else,
unless it's a descendant, I mean worth hundreds of years in the future,
right. I thought it was confirmed. Okay, that's what I Yeah,
I didn't know where it was. So that's where it's interesting. I'm
sure you'll get some descendants of them and stuff. You got the rain Tangs
telling the story, so I was surprised, yeah, Rocket did make it,
because I thought we were losing them all and I hadn't seen this one
in a while because, like I said, because this one is like,
it's very depressing. You open up your movie the first fifteen to twenty minutes
killing it's three years, three hundred years, just three years or definitely three
months, three months after Franco back where Caesar I didn't die. Yeah,
okay, seeah, we're definitely not getting So yeah, I'm kind of surprised
they all made it. But yeah, I was just gonna round off my
initial there of like some of those decisions I think just brought down my overall
enjoyment. I still think that this movie has some fantastic stakes at play,
and again like, uh, some complexity to the individual sides, Like we
find out the Colonel and his faction, you know, they got they got
bigger fish to fry than just these chimps, which which is not something I
was expecting to see at all. And you know, this is where they
introduced kind of the prolonged effects or maybe the mutation of the Sindian flu of
bringing the humans down to the ape level, which initially I was like Okay,
I guess so you gotta get there, right, we gotta get there.
And and the more I stood on it, I'm like, I actually
kind of like that. I I kind of like how this this disease it
not only just wiped out a good chunk of them, but it is also
having this like reverse evolution effects sort of like it just making them stupid,
and so you either die or you live, but then you get devolved for
you know, living. Yeah, it's it's it's almost like a weird zombie
like, uh like evolution of the humans here. And I did like that
for the most part. So there is a lot of aspects in this movie
that I did like, but it's just it's just really not as clean as
what the last movie was. And I think because i'd just seen it,
it was just such a noticeable, uh just such a noticeable drop off for
me. But yeah, so I'm excited to unpack it. I was gonna
ask you before we get to Taylor's thoughts, So, like the movie overall
doesn't live up to Dawn, do you still is it a satisfying conclusion of
trilogy or even is that kind of a little wavering for you as far as
like these three films, the ending of it all. I I, yeah,
it's definitely satisfying by the end. It's not like some weird cliff and
watching. Yeah, yeah, I don't think it's that by any means,
because you know, if it was that bad, like it potentially could have
brought down some of the events of Don Right, which is just such a
solid movie because Don directly sets this up. And if it is just such
a disappointing finale, it's like, when I rewatch these, maybe I'll just
not watch that. So I'm glad that wasn't the result. I think even
just like the whole revenge stuff with Caesar, it is like the main idea
of what this movie is, like, like he's just totally shifted on his
ideals because of an understandable moment, right like when he loses his wife and
his son after sparing the humans too. It's not even that they just killed
them. He gave them a chance to be like, I'm not going to
kill these, Like he showed mercy for them, and what was their response
to kill his family. It's like the alt like the ultimate one eighty of
like you're saying, because there's a chance that if they kill those soldiers,
they don't go back and say all like give them the deats and stuff.
There's a chance if he kills those humans at the beginning, his son and
wife are still around, which has to be a yeah, they wouldn't know
where they are, right, Like it would be a lot of uh and
and like I like that in hindsight of just having a lot of consequence on
on Caesar directly, Like it might not have been his hand that killed is
his son and my wife, but his actions indirectly totally uh resulted that.
So I a few times, right when he leaves them the camp and they
get captured, like maybe they still have got captured, but he feels like,
oh, I could have led them in a way that the people wouldn't
be here, right. So it's like multiple times you see that his actions
have a reaction, good or bad, mostly bad unfortunately for Caesar. And
I think I think just the fact that we're jumping from like the fact that
he was not this all knowing leader but just the super wise individual that is
like their one defining Yeah, and like he's always staying true to his morals,
where you know, he loses his his loved ones and that just goes
up window now and he's going like full Coba. Initially, like I didn't
like that, but the fact that they bring in Koba and like like directly
have Caesar realize that he's kind of becoming this and he's having this internal struggle.
He's realizing that he's not strong enough to kind of put this revenge to
the side and just focus on what's important. Like, I do love those
moments. So I am a little bit conflicted because there's some decisions in here.
It's like, I don't know, this is kind of strange. But
they also kind of cover it. It's not like they're trying to hide the
fact of like they're shifting his his motivation and and what his goal is.
They're actually talking about that. So I do like that. I think I
just I don't know, I need more time to stew upon it. It's
too fresh. And that's where you know, like you're talking the wrong person.
I'm somebody that believes in the death penalty, so you know whatever,
but that the lesson of life is and what the morality tale is. Like
Caesar, even at the end, he has to get revenge. He goes
to the colonel still decides not the kilms, that's good. But on his
way he gets shot. So again you could argue, if he wouldn't have
gone back there, try to thought about getting revenge, he could still be
living with his son the apes. But that's where it's trying to show you,
like, don't that might be what your your emotions and your feelings are
telling you like to get back of the person, But it is sometimes you
gotta take the high road. And if you would have taken the high road,
he would have left. But he had like three or four times like
we get out of here, he'll be good, and you're like, no,
I'm doing this. You know. It's just like he he really was
like possessed by the idea and it kind of is fitting. Like I hate
that he dies, like it's always heartbreak. I hate that because it's such
a journey, especially you literally see this like eight from like baby Chimpanzee to
the end. But it's like even in the theater, I was like,
I know he has to die of a man, I don't want him die.
In the second it's the same thing. I feel so bad for the
fucking Cornelius man, just also his family. In forty eight hours, just
like incummeries. Yeahs and and what's uh blue Lake or no not fast Lake?
Fuck bad fuck bad epe Oh your dad died but you got bad ape?
No, yeah Lake. He was like a surrogate, like sister in
law and a way. But yeah, how'd you feel about all the the
big deaths and Caesar's motivation for kicking off this journey because it's not for the
Apes, it's for himself, you know. Yeah. I I was just
I was really excited to see this lineage of Caesar kind of continue on and
fuck go Colba's back. Oh oh no, no, she just stops crying
instantly. Just but yeah, I think that getting the lineage cut short here
well of course, uh Cornelia is still alive. I think that's fantastic and
I hope that they play off of that in the Kingdom. But seeing,
yeah, just the stakes raised, and I think that's what really sets the
tone for me. And I mean I never felt connected to the wife,
and I definitely felt connected to Blue Eyes, but that's why it really felt
in awe and shock. And could they have expanded upon that, yes,
But to me, I feel like we got the expansion of the deep dive
with that character in the last one, and there are times when I thought
the last one he was actually gonna get killed in certain situations. So here
we are now, and I feel like his death it happened, and I
as much as I hated it because it was just so emotionally like holy shit
as a moment, but I still was able to kind of like accept it
because I've gotten to know this character and see everything. I know. The
stakes are elevated here because as you guys talked about, Caesar's going through a
lot of turmoil. Now he's haunted by these visions of Coba, which are
just eerie as they loomed throughout And yeah, so now I think it really
puts an interesting light now on Caesar, and I like that in each film
he's really overcoming all these different things in his life and these different challenges.
And it sucks because I wish that the other apes could have could learn these
these teachings, these lessons that he is going through. And I feel like
all of these things that he's going through, it's very much accustomed to him
as a as a character, and he takes the weight, he takes the
load of all of these problems and everything so that as people can thrive and
can continue on and exists, and they get to this amazing new place.
But the message of Caesar here, even though he stood for so many good
things and stood for his kind, it will it's going to be warped and
distorted in the future, I'm sure, and that'll be I'm hoping they expand
upon that a little bit, because it's just the way the way things go.
So I think that I can't even remember where I was going with all
this the ape characters ship, What am I doing here? What was the
initial question just about the death and answer? So you can take us somewhere
else if you want to go now you couldn't go anywhere, can go anywhere
at all? Anywhere? Yeah, I want to go to the colonel here
at the end though, at the end where just the final war breaks out,
and I think this this scene, it was quiet and it was really
crazy when the last remnant of like humans just storm this base and it's just
all out chaos and destruction and war and you got helicopters and tanks, like
it's just nuts. And I wasn't expecting this in this movie at all,
or they caught me off guard to see the human be human aspect here.
But again I think I said this in the Don retro where all of the
negatives that humans encounter and this trilogy or human cause, and in this one
in particular, it wasn't really the Simian flu that really sealed the deal here
for them. They literally just like mother Nature was like, you know what,
fine, one more fuck you, and they launched their bombs and the
avalanche came down and just took them out. And it's just it was all
human cause they could have they could have been that better, that better guy,
like, you know what, let these humans just die out here in
this little nook in the middle of nowhere, and we're just gonna buger off
and go do our own thing and leave it be. And we don't even
know what it's like around the world with other apes, and we assume that
it's it's it's like this if you go to Australia or you go to the
UK. We assume that those apes are also evolving based on this flu,
because the flu moved from through the airlines. But yeah, they didn't,
they didn't take that. The humans just went here, they fought, and
I just thought this whole scene was just absolutely bonkers and crazy. And the
one thing I like in particular is when you don't know how these humans are
gonna react with the apes. And so when the apes are sneaking out and
they like before the avalanche hits, the guys in their suits like turn in
look at them, and you're wondering, like, what are they gonna do?
And of course they they go to sit, they start opening fire on
them, which again, it's just fucked. I thought they were gonna show
those humans at the end being like, oh, these are not good humans.
But the way they're doing that with the apes of like, okay,
some apes choose violence, them don't. So the fact that they had that
soldier start to raise the gun that I will say it was like a little
disappointed, And I don't really know what the message was there. It was
his own judgment call. It wasn't the order. He's like, you know
what, fu Yeah. I thought it was gonna be like, Okay,
again, this is showing Caesar there are some good humans out there. Even
with this one. That guy he's saved became a complete shit bag. You
know, he didn'tend up saving Caesar. Donkey had to fucking blow him away
with RBG Preacher. Yeah, so I thought, oh, this is gonna
be And so that is one little thing i'd have where I don't know the
point of the eight Like it's just is it. So when we get to
Kingdom, we don't feel bad about the apes or the humans because in this
movie, it's not like with Malcolm everything. This movie we got no good
humans really, you know, we didn't get to see that. We saw
the Colonel's team and then we saw the next team who they killed the colonel.
So maybe the girl she's the only good human. Yeah, true,
but like she's good, which that's some problems to Like, is that guy
her dad that they kill accidentally? Which guy was it at the barns when
he both goes a pole gun and then Caesar suits him. Yea, I
don't understand how Lucas dying and she's bawn like a motherfucker. But then suppose
this guy who is her father, not a single tear shed for him.
So that's the only thing I was trying to think is maybe that's not her
dad and just some guy that's on her taking care of her, because like,
hey, it's a little kid. But so that's why I try head
cannon. But if that is her father, it makes no sense why she's
like emotionless but these monkeys she's known for less than a day. Man,
the world is over. I know it's a kid, but still like I
feel like they made the kids smart off that react the way. So I
had a couple of little things with that too. That's fair, you know,
I think I would prefer to head cannon that it wasn't actually her dad.
Maybe me too, Like a soldier who hold your hostage, she knows,
I mean she was infected, right, Like, maybe the order is
to just fucking chop her head off or something. I don't know, because
because because because he had he was marked right by the uh the omega symbol
whatever it was. So maybe it's maybe that was the order to just because
Colonel's Colonel's orders, right, was to just execute those individuals that ever.
Yeah, but Tay, you didn't talk much about the actual current. You
brought him up and you start talking about the idea of it, but what
about what he harrels? And you know, yeah, I mean he just
when the moment he appears and he just fucking annihilates the family. It's just
like I want tom a war Zone team. Yeah, like god damn.
Also, he's also not gonna revive you though, this guy. You're down,
You better self revived, bitch, because I ain't getting you're like oh,
but yeah, he just from the things that he's talking to with Caesar
and just like kind of like Probe and Caesar and like, I don't know
if he wants necessarily learning more about him, but just kind of like instilling
his way of life. And I feel like there's just this kind of like
interest in his enemy when he's talking to Caesar and like, and again it's
very it's shameful too because he's just making them be slaves and whatnot. He
wants them to be have their will stripped out. And that's another huge factor
too with this character, just overseering overseeing them just being demotivated and if you
resist or you help you anything like that, it's just it's just the slaver
kind of stuff. Just it's just brutal, just brutal, And I think
that's what makes you hate this this guy even more. Like we've seen humans
do very shitty things in this relogy because they're you know, they're idiots or
they're in for money but here you have, at the first time we have
a human that's thinking from it, thinking at this scenario from a huge military
standing and just a real piece of shit, like just because he hates them,
he really hates them. So I think that's that's an interesting transition because
it's not for any other motivation. And it's tough, right, because that
I think is the some of the toughest villains is they did give him some
motivation, but it's like a, I don't not some they did. I
guess it's a tough thing to talk about even because like they do make him
a bit more of a political villain, where at first they really pose amts.
He's just the bad guy. He's the bad guy that hates apes and
he's a slave guy. And that's always hard, right because we're gonna talk
about mad Max Layer today for breaking forth wall. But that's different. It's
like, okay, more than Joe just a bad guy, right, but
they make him super cool with an outfit and like a voice. It's like
a The Vader thing where it's like, okay, he's bad, but he
looks like a comic book bad guy, where this is like, okay,
he's just bad and they reveal his methods of he's not bad, he is
for him trying to give the human race another shot. And he feels that
even if you have to axe you peep, you have to. And I
imagine there's probably people in real life that do feel that way, right,
I don't know how bad COVID got, but I'm sure there's people that maybe
would have made that call where that's not myself. Myself, I'm not gonna
be, you know, slaughtering my family to like, oh hope this gets
better, and it it was really for nothing because they're all getting sick anyway.
So like he kind of ends up being an idiot because he thought this
would help and it did. Like they're like they're just all getting infected.
So it feels like they're going for a character that's a little misinformed and he's
making these bold choices when really it just you gotta play it out a little
bit, or it should be you investing in your people. So I I
like Woody in the role. I think he's what he always does a great
job just being that smarmy just like just to fucking prick, like when he's
just looking down at Caesar when Caesar's just like tied up and then thrown the
water. Just that look, even onto the glasses, you can just feel
like man Woody Harrelson. It's just he's a vile motherfucker. And it's almost
sometimes the same thing of like until they talked about the something, it's like
Izzy doing this as an excuse to be violent, of like, oh yeah,
I'm trying to help people. But he's so off kilter you never know.
But then you get that moment at the end with him and Caesar where
they say, like, oh, you're gonna like Caesar's talking about I showed
your men mercy and you know, oh, well, you're not gonna show
me mercy even though I killed your you know, your son, your wife,
Like what you're gonna do to me? And Caesar does do that.
He's the bigger man, bigger ape and shows of mercy and like the Colonel
kind of acknowledges that there's some tears there. So he's a very like complex
character where I think for me, where I would have liked him more,
I think we needed maybe a little more time with him. And it's already
a long movie, right, so it's tough that it's a finale there's lots
of apes, lots of pieces, but I think maybe like even ten more
minutes to learn a bit more about him. So I still like it overall.
And it's also tough coming off Koba, where I think Coba is top
tier villain, where I think this is like a very good villain for I
guess what the story needs as far as we just need Caesar to have vengeance
filled in his heart. Right. So I like the Colonel, but it's
not like oh Man, one of my favorite villains of you know, the
sci fi Genre's like, okay, he's he gets the job done, but
Kirkle and you had some he had some issues right here, you're done Withody
Harrelson, you see him? Uh No, I yeah, I'm not a
fan of the Colonel here, I and hear what you're saying. I feel
like, for me, he just he seemed a little too like one note
in the sense of like he's never gonna waiver from his decision, like he
is just pure against the apes and just like a little extreme, well very
extreme actually when you find out he's murking his own soldiers and even later on
when he's talking about his son, like I thought it was gonna be like
a really heartfelt moment where he was like really conflicted, you couldn't do it,
but he's like, I just fucking shot my son right then and there,
yeah, because he's like this is my purpose, this is my whatever.
And much like Carver though, it's like there are all those people,
right, so it's like, well, semi believable, but like he's not
really complicated from that point on, Like he is just kind of a Darth
Vader character. He's just evil and he and like that's just what he is,
and there's no real I don't know, like like there's not a lot
of depth in his decision of like wavering. Like I thought there's gonna be
moments when he brings Caesar up to his his quarters to uh, you know,
just just just talk to him, and then he loves talking to Caesar.
Man. He like I'm always waiting for them to be like help us
with the war, and he gets some food. But I feel like he
just he does just want to see what Caesar is and that's what I but
that's what I was waiting for, was like some of those moments of like
maybe meeting somewhere in the middle, like hey, if you agree to do
this or like rally your troops. I'll I'll give you people food and water,
and he's like, you'll get your fucking food and water when you're done
building the wall. It's like the wall's not gonna be built, like and
that decision, it just it's like, hey, he's kind of stupid,
like like he doesn't realize that the apes actually need sustenance in order to work.
But then the next day he does get him that though, right he
does. That's when the star shows up. Okay, yeah, you got
me there with the I guess it does talk him down eventually, but he
comes off as kind of like an idiotor I agree with you there where it's
like if Caesar doesn't say this, he's like, well, let's just hope
this works out, and like by the end, you know, his his
fade. He ultimately gets poisoned by the doll that Nova has that she kind
of infected infects him. I kind of like how it was so simple in
that sense, but it's also just a little bit less satisfying because he doesn't
really like he's not even really part of the war. When it finally comes
down to the other soldiers coming to raid like he's just on bed rest.
He's he's going, Yeah, when the war starts, he's already gone.
He's already made his But I think that's supposed to say something that like,
I guess he feels well, No, I guess it's shows he's a man
of conviction. I guess right, because he's willing to kill himself to stop
this virus from going, even though I feel like they buried the bodies in
the snow because they felt it would spread. So I feel like you're busted
brains all over this lot isn't gonna not spread it so all over the food
rations. He just blew his head. At least go out there and maybe
do some shooting first, you know, at least take a couple of bullets
and save some of your guys. But these guys are fighting a war that
they don't even know is over their colonels up there fucking dead. It's like
an eight off Hitler situation. We just just covered Rebel Moon part two,
and we were talking about that that king's mother that just like suicide herself when
the invasion was happening. Same idea, like his soldiers don't really even know
what happened to him, like the like on their on their Yeah, the
morale is like where's our soldier or sorry, where's our leader to like lead
the soldiers into battle, and he's They just think he's fucking hiding out in
his bedroom listening to some tunes, jerking off or something. One minute,
I did like that Caesar didn't pull the trigger. You know, it showed
the I don't know, just more so the character of Caesar better man than
me. I would have fucking took my monkey Claus and I would have been
all over that guy. Fisto, yeah, each bone. I would start
by one leg. Oh yeah, I don't care. I said, I'm
all for the death. I'm not in the oh. I forgive you mercy,
no penalty to fucking just torturing this guy to death. Break I think,
I don't care. You're going citizen on him. Cut this out,
share it when I run for office one day. Fucking people that are raping
and killing kids whatnot. You could torch those people all day long. I
don't give a ship. Those are people that don't deserve it. So if
it's like we're gonna if their death was hey, you know you're a pedophile
you did these things, you're death by executioners. We're gonna put you in
a room with a chimpanzee. Good luck to you. I'd be like,
yeah, sure, dude, Like I'm completely like Caesar should have fucking pounded
up every bone in that guy's body because fuck man, like he did not
have to kill. Like he's like, oh I was looking for you.
You know, that's not them, this fucking like you know this, like
especially this female ape like you know, like you know, it's not Caesar.
So he's just a piece and it's fine because that's whatoy Harrelson's character.
He's a piece of shit person. But like he didn't have to kill those
people, you know. So on the note, I think it would have
been better if Caesar didn't leave the gun with him and just fucking left him.
Yeah, so I'm not gonna kill you. I'm not gonna kill you,
but I'm not gonna save you either, you know, yeah, because
yeah, that would have been the result I would have preferred there. So
yeah, just taking the high road, right because the whole movie didn't and
to fuck him over. So he's gonna I'm I'm not gonna kill I'm gonna
let him do whatever he wants. So the ape Caesar is a better person
than me, I guess, so I wouldn't have been surprised. But the
Colonel just shot Caesar there and then shot himself like like like the movie did
nothing for me to think otherwise. Yeah, he is a piece of shit
character that would do. He did have like a war mentality, so he
respected Caesar for like putting him out of his misery. That's why, like
it's very like it is a very the reason I guess some like why the
character works and doesn't work for me because like I don't like I don't get
on board with like the war mentality and people like that. So it is
that sort of way of well he is now respects Caesar because he gave him
the chance to off himself instead just killing him, right, and he's showing
a mercy so fair enough. Yeah, overall, didn't love it. Really
didn't like the Colonel. I think I was just expecting a lot, especially
the complexity of our villains from the previous movie. It was just like,
Okay, this guy's just evil and we're just going with that. You know.
He made some arguments for like he does give them food, which is
fair enough, but yeah, just not what I was hoping for. Yeah,
but great job and make it if you want to, if you want
to make me feel like you want a character to die, I think they
did that. Theyre all that stuff with the apes and the camps and treat
them the way they are. They got them shrung up, just like they
did in the original movies, like they're from places, those xes up,
yeah, and like that's brutal. They're just like out there, some of
them dying. Did. Like caes you got thrown water on, which that's
a piece of trivia. They told Circus it was gonna be warm water.
They fully intended it to be warm water, but they forgot to warm up.
So when they threw it on me, it was ice cold. But
he was happy because he's like, oh it made the scene better because yeah,
these suits stink. But yeah, so that's the same thing. In
the store, they throw cold water on just let them sit overnight, and
it's like already the apes, like you can see their breasts. It's like
this fucking that's the same thing. Even if Caesars don't get shot, there's
a chance he's fucking dying for just like hypothermia, so like he was,
they put him through the fucking ringer. But I think they if you talk
about the middle portion as far as if, which I think they want to
do, make you just feel dread. They even the first they make you
feel dread. Those camps feel real bad, like they're definitely going for like
when we talk about like apes, the first one having that you know,
kind of a lot of allusions to racisms and things that happen in life.
That's concentration camps, right, They're like what they're doing there, and they
do a very good like that poor rangeting when he can't even fucking move and
then so he's like, oh, he just needs food, and the colonel
like gives a head and then just shoots them right on the spot. You're
like, fuck man, like anybody can go. But it's I think it's
smart. One thing I will give the colonel though, because I know some
people are like, oh, why didn't just shoot Caesar. I think the
colonel recognizes that, Like if he shoots Caesar, I think these apes are
gonna fucking turn on me because they all like so I did like that where
he was smart enough to go, Okay, I gotta try to somehow work
or figure out something to do with this ape, because if I kill this
guy, they might turn and sure they might die, right, but that's
not the point. They don't want. They're not there to make the apes
their slaves. They need these apes to get this fucking wall built, so
they save themselves. So that that's where I like that push and pull of
Caesar does have a little power, and Caesar knows that because it's a great
scene when they're all like cheering, and it's almost similar to the first one.
I remember when Brian Cox was going out that night and he looked and
all the apes were like, oh, like, they have that moment again
here where Woody Harrison realizes fuck like, he is like the alpha, like
that there's no I gotta be careful with how I do this. So I
still think that he would have shot Caesar right there though, right he was
counting down to five and then Lake like gets back to work, and that's
kind of what changes. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think there.
I think later on, I think you're right. I think later on
he realizes not so much. So that's why he pins him up and does
like, well, I'm not gonna kill your leader, but I can show
you that I can have your yes. So I think you're right in that
moment though he hadn't put tune to get there, and he was ready just
to you know, good on lake for save and save the fucking huge rock
shait to lift up. My god, he probably saved all the apes there,
because if Caesar dies, I don't think they they would have been able
to get out of there. Right. Hopefully her and Marie are of the
one lean apes because she was making those who were making better decisions than Caesar
was in this movie, you know, because he was absolutely especially the pivotal
moment. He just that pivotal moment, you know, fucking Corneas just lost
his brother, lost his mom. I feel like maybe he's close with dad
Mo, not the closest because I feel like Caesar's like always busy off to
war doing this type of stuff. So the fact that his son's there and
they're about to go to a new location, that's when Caesar decides this is
the time. It's much like Aragorn right before the Big Bower Turn the King,
where he has to go speak to the arm and dead. All the
apes are like what the fuck? Like where's Caesar going at least for that
one though, Ara Goron's like, well, I'm going so I can like
hope again an army to help us out. Caesar's leaving completely just for ah,
fuck you guys all, you know, Like I like, he's not
saying that, but the same way, A big thing to put on Lake,
like take care of my son. It's like that shouldn't be her fucking
burden, like step no, man, Like I know that guy killed your
wife and somebody like, no, you gotta step up. You gotta stay
here to take care of your son. But I like that for the character
because again it makes you, uh question your your hero. So we want
to go to next Yeah, we lost Luca. We we met uh what
was the what'll bino ape? Winter winter fucking turncoat? He was scared next
day essentially, yeah, exactly, Yeah, but I see, and that's
so death. I really like that they're trying to make him quiet, but
like Caesar's just still so pissed off with this ape, but he kind of
accidentally kills the ape, like I guess, like up to interpretation, but
yeah, we lost him. We didn't lose rocket. We lost Luca.
Who Yeah, I got shot by a couple of soldiers. Unfortunately, he
got stabbed in the end. Yeah, you're right, he got stabbed by
the what is that thing? They haven't like a Yeah, so he fucking
killed those guys. But yeah he got which I'm surpri I guess if you
hit a grill on the right spot, it could do the trick. I
guess, right, he's the big guys. But like that was a moment
that I just didn't think the death was necessary. And also it is just
like, okay, we're just dropping characters here, like, Okay, you
got poked with a little fucking toothpick. Okay, this giant gorilla gets killed
here. But it's just it just split up Caesar from the other ones,
right, because that's exactly you man, exactly, And like it just seems
like, okay, by this point in the movie, we have to be
down to x amount of apes, so let's just say that he gets poked
by little bayonet here, you know, drops his giant gorilla. Like story
wise, it didn't really seem super necessary because we still have a shit ton
of apes in the end, Like why does it? I guess it just
has to be a consequence thing. But well, because I think the idea
is so like it's literally just story stuff because Caesar has to be alone,
right, and then those apes can't be with him because they help escape,
right, so they all get kidnapped. They don't find the underground. So
it's literally just like a story exposition sort of thing of how do we sweat
these guys out? Okay, Luca has to die and they say this is
enough, let's go back, and then she was like, no, I'm
not going. So that's why it's just kind of like a it's a plot
device to get Caesar alone and then those other apes what was Rocket bad Ape
and uh Maurice and then Nova you know Nova. Yeah, I think it's
I think it's Charlton Heston's coming for you look out. I think it's the
same thing with like Blue Eyes, where I'm not upset that the death happened,
it's more so just the execution of it. It wasn't satisfying enough,
especially like come on, Luca, that's his boy from the zoo, right,
like like that was his first Gorilla. They get the ball rolling Luca
because yeah, like he helped Yeah, so good soldier man though, Luca
to the end, man, he like, I take him right or die
to the Actually was that the I don't know what? No, wasn't the
gorilla in the first apes. Wasn't that the one that died in the helicopter?
Oh? Yeah, you're right, Yeah, okay, never mind,
Remember he got Luca Luca can die then I guess he was in Rupert Riots
apes. You'll Never be Lucas? Yeah? What about you? How do
you feel about some of these other death of the Chimpanzees apes? And and
also you can start off, how did you feel about Bad Ape? We
get made Steve's on who you know, massive fan for me day daycare?
Man. I loved Steve's on that fucking movie. Man. So how do
you feel with those apes and a bad Ape being introduced? Because I feel
like that's a mixed character for people. Bad Ape. So well, yeah,
again the deaths, I don't have much else to add aside from it's
just it's it's it's it's a stakes and it just really really heavy. Yeah,
good good death. Fuck. I think that was Bad Ape. I
think he's a very interesting character. I liked seeing this ape because to me,
it was we have an introduction of an ape that's outside of the Caesars
group and this is our first foot out the door of understanding. Okay,
we can see that, Like as mentioned before, this flu is spread across
the world, and there's other apes that are now affected by this, and
they they don't they mean, they don't have groups. They're just on their
own surviving, but they they are out there, and it's it's cool to
see the spread of us and the great of of this the Ape. I
guess civilization because the movies do a good job at feeling like it's very small
and it's a limited just Caesars group and it's just a more of a minority
dealing with this war and everything. But for me, Bad Ape just feels
like he's just a victim of this, this fallout of this war. And
yeah, I think he's just an interesting character. Almost got blown away,
but he didn't. So Caesar doesn't survive, Bad Ape does. It's the
new leader now bad Ape bad is taken a lead. I could be I
wouldn't want that, but I think I like I like that he was just
he was talking and he was talking better than some of the other apes were
too. Yeah, And I guess at this stage of the game, like
not all the apes are still very like proficient English speakers. They're still they're
still getting there. Yeah, yeah, I'm I think bad ape. I
was maybe annoyed with my first go around much too. I think Taylor's false
claim that this movie has a lot of sweetness in it. I think that
bad ape is needed now I've watched it this time, because it is a
very die I don't know in needed right. I actually don't know that because
I watched The Batman. There's like no comedic like there's jokes, but there's
like a comedic character. It's fine, So I think honest like this I
think is probably my third watch of this one, I am more used to
it. I don't dislike the character. I think it's fine from a screen
time they have, so I think I generally go into the camp of it's
not a negative for me, but it's also not like if you took it
out of the movie, would I miss it? No, So that's what
you could do with runtime. Maybe I would take out some of his stuff
and give more time to the Colonel to add some more layers there. So
I'm kind of like positive in the middle of it. But I've seen a
pivot of all this character noise, which I absolutely get because sometimes those characters
any the fuck out of me. I think with this one, I guess
even to that point too, like the Batman, Like, of course you're
dealing with Bruce Wayne's dead parents, but that's like years later this movie opens
up again with the murder of like a wife and a child. So it's
like, I I kind of understand why at some point where he's and coming
to and be like we need like somebody in here to just add like just
a breath, like just a breather to be like, hey, it's not
all just fucking awful because you're not making jokes at the camp. You're not
making jokes like right after season lose his family, so like to have this
look, and I like Steve's on I think he plays it the right way.
So yeah, I end up being like I guess pro bad ape,
you know, but I'm not like gonna fight to the death for bad ape.
So yeah, I uh. For the most part, I didn't love
the just comedic relief character, but you do make a good point that you
kind of need it for just how dour this movie is overall, like it
is very depressing, and there was a couple of moments that kind of got
me with just like his his certain reactions to the thing. But I think
I'm think I'm I'm happy that they didn't overdo it with the humor. I
think there's some moments that felt like maybe it was being overdone, but yeah,
it was. It was alright. He was also reminded me of my
one grandfather, which was just hilarious because he's kind of smaller and you guys
called Grandpa just broke his soul every time. What's up back? They dressed
like that too, Yeah, he does definitely if you were if he's wearing
like a tuke or something, he just looks like a little little bad ape.
But no pants, no pants, he's cock out always Grandpa put some
clothes on. I did like when he was wearing the sweater that was That
was a funny moment, and I guess just also showing that, like there
are apes out there that are kind of just on their own and yeah,
what's your finger? I thought you were going a different way. I'll respond
after them, Okay, No, I I like that, like just showing
that obviously, the Simon flu is everywhere and it's affecting apes. Everywhere,
and some apes that aren't necessarily you know, with a faction of of other
ones and are just kind of on their own. And he is very loopy,
but it makes sense for someone that's just been living on their own and
and kind of just you know, getting stir crazy, like cabin favor,
like you look like a hoarder. He had just all these objects everywhere.
When Nova kept grabbing things, he was like talking, He's like, don't
touch that, don't touch that. Like he just seems a little bit out
there in the psyche, which I guess it makes sense why he is kind
of comedic, because he is just goofy and weird and very different from the
other ones. And like Caesar is even just like I feel like he's never
dealt with an ape like that before. He just it's like, well,
I guess we kind of need everyone, especially someone that knows the location to
this one play freak. Yeah, as you say, the way you're going
is another reason. Well, I guess I think they add on bad ape
to for the lore he is. I guess when they go back to whatever
it is their new home, he's part of the apes that starts the kind
of inspiration for them to start wearing clothes and stuff because he wears it for
a different reason. But Matt Reeves said that was the end the intention there
because Apes so far having worn clothes, He's wearing clothes that kind of gets
them to even though I feel like in these movies spin years later they're not
really wearing too much clothes yet, but that was the intention. So there
you go, bad Apes started a trend, big fashion better Badie. It
makes sense why he's the one wearing the clothes too, because he just he's
so much more frail than the other ones. He doesn't have a lot of
hair compared so he needs a little bit more insulation. Yeah, I'm trying
to think, is there any I my notes? I think I have my
biggest note, Nova with the little nova symbol there. There's somebody supposed to
be the same characters that the That's where we get into like I kind of
forgot about Nova. So a couple of weeks ago or months when we record
the episode, when I and Taylor were talking about like, hey, can
you make this still a prequel to the original Apes or is it its own
timeline? I think now with like the Nova stuff, you have to kind
of lean into like it's its own timeline, which again I also think Kingdom
of the Plant Apes is going to probably shoot that theory as well too,
so I'm kind of fine with that. So I actually think Nova is a
character I could do without, to be honest, more than bad Ape.
I don't think Nova really brings anything to the story other than like that's like
you said, that's the one good person. But it's like, I know
Caesar and Maurice and other apes, like not all of them hate humans.
They're taking care of someone. And I think it would be different if Caesar
survived and he's raising this human girl because he lost a child, and in
a sequel, you see, hey, I think there's something fun with that,
the same way with it's funny with this movie. Houd Jump three hundred
years and we did down retro and that was a pitch from Mat where he's
like, oh, let's not jump the future. That's here, and I
think there is something interesting. Okay, how does a female human grow up
in a like a with apes? Right, But that's not happening it they're
all apes the next one. So I think all the interesting stuff you could
do with Nova is not really touch bunch. She just kind of like I
guess, k. Of course she gives Caesar some food and helps with the
escape, but you could just shift that the bad ape or somebody, right,
Like I don't. Again, I don't think it's like a brings down
the movie. But if you're also looking at screen time, where I think
it is, Like I said, what is this, I think it's two
and a half hours. There is a longer movie. I think there's some
things you could shave off or just put to somebody else, you know,
like I said, the Coronel stuff. So it's two hours twenty so about
two fifteen two ten. So yeah, no, I didn't hate the characters.
Like all, I was bringing it down, but it wasn't needed.
But yeah, I guess it's uh. I think now it's just like a
nice tribute to our Nova. And then it is a different timeline because this
couldn't be right as round years later should be dead. So yeah, but
who knows Cornelius. That name fucking passes around every fucking genner. So maybe
Nova's just very Papa in the human world there with the original Nova with Heston.
Yeah, no, yeah, I completely agree with you. I think
that it's not necessary to the story, but I I don't know. I
actually like the dynamic of especially Maurice like being super kind of protective of her,
like when when Caesar's like, we can't take her with us, like
we gotta go, and He's like, I understand that, but like I
also can't leave her, so like the ball is kind of in your court?
Am I am I staying here? Or are we taking her with her
or taking her with us? And I don't know. It's just again with
the whole marketing material. I just love the image of them on the horse
and then you just have the one little girl that they're kind of protecting,
and uh, just it's an interesting variable to have because now they're there's there's
a vulnerable, squishy human with them, you know that that like it needs
protection and she would very much die on her own, like very fast with
with without them taking her own. So I don't know. It's it's a
dynamic I I liked, but didn't was it wasn't necessary. I agree,
Yeah, I think this is one of the things that I really like about
this movie, is just having her tag along. And I guess maybe for
Caesar it's just not like a pet project. But he sees it as a
way of keeping coexistence even after he is gone, and he can see this
as being instilled in his in his people in the community, that there's a
way for us to be the better here. And he understands that there's something
going on with the humans yet again, that they're they're going through their own
tribulation here with this yet again. Yeah, so I think that I think
that it speaks volumes that he wanted to take in this this human, just
this child and use it because I think, again, the child is very
innocent, and you could use this child to, like I said, build
up a better future by having this coexistence. And so I think that's why
it's very important to keep this child alive throughout this process, which again speaks
even more volumes because he's at war, like fuck these humans, they are
slaving him away, but yet he still wants this girl to stay alive and
stay safe. So I think it's I think she adds a lot more.
But as far as yeah, whatever her her fate is in three hundred years,
I don't think that's uh, that's up for any kind of debate.
I think she's she's dead. Maybe that's the other thing that makes you not
be able to speak, but it gives you longer life span. You know,
would you make that trade, you would not just speak, but you'd
be dumb down like to Well, yeah, it's tough with the dumb day
because that doesn't happen in this movie though, right, like does she like
that's gonna have So I'm saying in this movie because I think if you add
the dumb downs, well clearly not. But like let's say I'm starting off
the pitches. You can live your you know, sixty eighty years or you
live like three hundred years but do not speak. I all depends on life,
like I think, like, right, I don't know, like I
guess even right now, because I guess I could see my kids generation go
and stuff, so that'd be quite funny. Me who speaks too much like
not being able to speak. But I don't know, like because there's tons
of people in the world that can't speak or have like you know, our
mute and stuff, and they find their way. So I don't think I
have sign language. Well yeah, like I don't think it's like a it's
not such a deter deterrent. That's just like a vampire thing. Like,
would I want to now live that long and see loved ones die? I
don't know, that's a that's an Originals question taking it. I'm not taking
that deal. You're staying as a regular Kirklum right now. Yeah, I'll
take I'll take the limited lifetime. Well, I'll love you kirk Clum.
Sorry, I'm taking the deal. You're taking the two geek first though.
We gotta find something else, you see the end of the end of the
time. Yeah, we're just gonna make making years. We'll make some badass
silent films, you know, So anything else any other points before I get
the trivia and final ratings, thinks. So I like seeing the donkeys and
like their their war garb, like being like basically the pack mules for the
soldiers. It was just a cool image of them, like wearing the helmets
they got like some scout ones with just just the gun I don't know,
like ammo packs and in their back and having them as like the ones like
reloading like the giant heavy machine guns. Like it was just a cool little
mixture. It makes me just you know, think of the possibilities of like
an RTS planning of the Apes games where we have a factions girl like that.
That would just be so fun to see those images. And I remember
thee I remember the trailers too, and the apes were fighting the apes,
and I was like, what the fuck's going on? I really liked that
aspect of because it's one It just like makes sense. These people were for
Coba, they wore they got killed. But that's just something it just again
adds more like more dread to like there's other apes now against you, working
for the humans, like fuck, like we can't even like like we go
to war with Coba's people and then we break bread, like what what ever
that happened? Let's figure it out? Like, No, there's apes that
are actively whether it's winter, whether it's uh Donkey can't remember his full name
there, but I'm sure that wasn't his real name. That's his name,
that was his name in the movie. No, but I mean like that
wasn't his name before, Like was he read donkey when he was with the
apes? Oh, I don't know, we never see that. That's That's
what I meant. My real name, it's red Donkey. I just don't
like call him Red Donkey. It feels disrespectful, you know. But yeah,
coward, he betrayed his own race. Come on, we can call
him Red Donkey. Yeah, but then he fucking blewed that guy out with
the you know RBG yeah character. So yeah, I really like that aspect
because it's just there's something unerving about it to see the apes on the other
side with the humans taking orders again killing other apes, and they do that
with the Red Donkey one point. Its great when they're invading and he just
sees all these apes getting killed and he's finally clicking and I'm like, well,
maybe I made some mistakes here, and even Caesar's like once there once
were gone like your next like, and I like, it makes complete sense.
They're not going to keep you around, like he will eventually kill you.
So no, I agree. I love that dynamic of having like it
should be the apes are family sticking together, but you know they they were
with Coba and now they're finding some sort of alliance with the humans. So
it's it's it's pretty twisted in the sense of like you think you can trust
the ones, especially like Caesar gave these apes like sentience, like like he
is the one that administered like like the or I guess not all the apes,
but at least the ones in the zoos, he was giving them the
little syringe to to make them smarter. So there you go. I guess
it's not directly him that that was the one that gave them all what they
have, but still kind of because he was, he led them out and
you're in rallied the forces. So yeah, I think his little dialogue was
was pretty good of just him throwing these little jabs out to just kind of
sway him back over to the light side. Yeah, you let them call
you donkey like the matter fucking idiot. It's red doggy actually. According to
Matt Reeves, the name of the group rebelling humans are the Alpha and Omega,
a reference to the bomb, Mune a reference to the bomb. The
mutants warshipped and beneath the Planet Apes. Their logo of their hammets of flake
matches the original logo on the bomb. So get ready came with Planet Apes.
They're coming back. You know, I'll fucking Disney Fox Searchlight with whoever
you are. If you guys go with the Mune route, I trust trust
me, you're gonna fucking fail and great on that one. Let's let's let's
leave the mutants and the atomic bomb in the bass. Let's let's not do
that. I talked about the water, I talk about bad apes. Close.
Let's see when Maurice speaks to the human child with the new name Nova
Nova. The dialogue was the actual voice of Charlton Heston. It had been
electronically altered, but it's still clearly recognizable, which makes sense because when he
did talk, I was like, this doesn't sound like how Maurice talk usually.
He was like much deeper than that moment, it was different, And
yeah, it was a remixed version of Heston's voice. So always great that
Heston somehow like they're always find a way to bring him back, because you
know, it was just like this is Matt Reeve's trilogy. That was Charlton
Hessen's play on the apes, you know. So it's so we got to
keep consistent here. In October twenty sixteen, it was announced to be a
fourth Ace film, So we were almost a decade away from when they announced
Kingdom to it releasing, which is crazy, awesto. We had strikes,
some pandemic, lots of stuff, but still like they announced that, well
fuck, I didn't even put two and together. They announced that before this
movie even came out before Fox was bought, because remember like a couple of
years later Fox gets bought, so they announced a fourth one even before,
so probably them getting bought as well had a lot to do with that.
So didn't you put two and two together? Which is crazy because and we
always mentioned as we drive by it, but uh, this was filmed in
Hope, British Columbia and the Othella Tunnels, which is pretty crazy. I
never thought about. Yeah, so we drive by there all the time.
So yeah, I'm excited to go back there. Look for where we read
Donkey was hanging out and everything. Yeah, just find a gorilla skeleton there.
Yeah, Woody Harrelson is still there. You guys like apes? No,
okay, fuck y'all. Toby Kettle had expressed interest in reprising his performance
as the Other as other character, or reprising his role as Coba or other
characters. Plans to include Coba in a large role were abandoned early originally,
which I did not know this. If you stayed until the very end of
don Plant Apes, you hear Coba was breathing. I didn't know that.
I never stay familiar, So I guess they like whatever We did that to
give a tiny crack of possible that we could revive cobD if we wanted.
It was very early Spitball. Well, he just like falls in water,
right like it was like a fire pit. The building was on fire.
He felt like ten thousand feet but he fell, but he fell in a
darkness tailor he falls in the darkness that could be anywhere. Right. He
came back the same way. Come on, everybody comes back from that sec
We realized there was nothing more to do with Koba, certainly nothing that would
see what we've done the last story, but we knew we wanted to keep
him alive as idea and playing in that reality what happened in the last film.
So and then they just explained what they did there. So I think
that's a good idea. I think that's exactly that's the restraint you need you
have a great film. I get I definitely understand of this is fantastic character.
What more could we do with them? And to sit back and go,
you know what, they're really not much more, but let's utilize them
this way. I think it's perfect. It's very much like kind of like
what they did with Killmonger and Black Panther two. It's like exact same thing,
right, So I am very happy, Like I don't know what Coble
were brought here, Like I guess I could see some version of Coba working
with the colonel, but like I don't know if I uh, I don't
know if I need that. I think this was the right call. I
like the trippy mind sequences, Yeah, Caesar just seeing him a different like
whether it's a dream sequence or when he's just tripping out. It's a lot
more effective than having this him come back like a terminator. He's like half
robotic and there's whatever they go on already to write, like where would he
fit in? It's the movie with like the other troops, like the the
White Soldiers, you know, and other snow garb. Yeah, he's piloting
the helicopters, leading the full charge. Let's see. The final shot was
originally Caesar's eyes closing and for the last time, then cut to blat After
discussing the scene with any Circus Matt reasons Circus Society, the audience need to
see Caesar actually die. We just decided they would add emotional and emotional resonance
to the scene. If Maurice spoke the words as it would be the first
time the character talked. He did say run and a few other things,
but really like a full sentence and stuff. So originally that ending was just
very but much like the second movie where they had original ending where it's like
the closed eyes and he's dead, where this was like, well, they
added the Maurice speaking and him dying, So it seems like the endings they
add a little more onto these eight films. Let's see it. For the
last scene when they filmed Caesars Dying, he said, pretty much everyone was
on set and weeping openly for this moment. Big moment of this was because
during the filming of this movie and he serves his mother passed away and that
Ree's father passed away. So I guess it was just like a very wo
The last day of that set was a very emotional because it was just like
a lot of things that happen your filming character's death. They had some big
deaths. So Matt Reeve said Malcolm would not return because he was killed by
the Colonel. An indirect reference to Malcolm and his family from the film was
cut in a conversation between Caesar and the Colonel. According to Reeves, that
Malcolm was killed by the Colonel trying to persuade him that the Caesar, that
Caesar and the Apes could be trusted, and much like the Franko thing.
I wish they cut that. I wish I would have liked the same way
we now like now, I know it hadken, but I would have liked
to know, Okay, Will likely got sick and died if there was like
a little ad at all. This guy also killed Malcolm, and like,
fuck, what a piece of shit character. So I'm I wish they kept
the reference where are you guys on that? I'm okay with the being not
said. Would it have been like the Colonel also found Will and assassinated him,
and then he also found Malcolm. No welcome. Will died from sickness.
You know, It's like Will's the one that started this all gotta take
I found him, he was sick, and I shot him. Yeah,
I think that would have been interesting to see. I like when movies tie
in deeply together with little things like that little little Easter egg deep leading.
Oh yeah, I think that would have been cool. Finally, at the
end of the battle for the planet Apes, the camera comes into a close
up on a face of caesar statue with a single tier that rolls down the
eye of the left statue. At the end of this film, close with
Caesar's face on the verge of his own death, a single tier rolls down
his left eye, and finally in saying that you gotta give credit and reason
the crew. I feel like, with you know, everything we talk about
Heston, that's been one consistent thing I'd say from this trilogy is they were
always eluding and giving nice little tributes and shout outs to the films. Even
Battle, which we think is like a very meh film. I think we
were all like, oh, yeah, it's fine. The last shot of
that film being the tier on Caesars left die being the last shot this one.
It's like, man, you can tell the people that made this they
were Apes fans, they love this franchise, or they cared enough to go
research, and that's like, because that's that's to me the East Eggs where
I like where it's like that doesn't take you on the movie at all.
It's just a cool tying to the thing. And even it was the same
universe, then you can oh, that's why. That's that fucking statue has
a like a tearan or whatever. Right, So I'd lost some words there,
but it's like whaty Harrelson there for? It's the getting Yeah, some
breaks, but yeah, I will go. I came in here actually thinking
I was gonna drop another ten here, hopeful. Yeah, but I'll go
just to shy under. I'll go nine point five because there's some things that
I was like a little like mixer unsure on. But then the more we
talk about, go, okay, this is where I was. So even
then, I think I could still even make a case for being a ten
because there's so much good craftsmanship here, and there's I like the story and
the journey I'm find most of choice. But I'll go a nine point five.
So that's where I am. A tearfield. I'm trying to remember what
you know. I know back in the day, I gave it a ten
out of ten. I'm gonna do it again. I'm gonna give it a
ten out of ten. Boom, it squares up. It's even saving with
that other the previous film. I think that it just kind of some days
I really think about where I would place them, but I just they're both
on par with each other, and when I do the rank days, I'm
really gonna have to just like sit down and just fucking think hard on what
I'm gonna do for that ranking. But yeah, this movie's just it's great
and I just think that the uh, the way it ends is great,
and it's just it's such such a such a journey, such a journey,
man. I just love that. Like said, some days I really think
about the ranking. I just wonder, like what inspires you to be?
Like you sit down, like, man, what am I gonna do with
these rankings of the Apes films? But luckily we will be doing that as
a full episode, mister pass or fund rating. Final reading for this one,
close out this little mini chapter before we opened it back up for the
next chapter. I'm gonna give it eight out of ten on on this viewing.
There's too many little things that that brought down my overall enjoyment. But
I still think this is a good emotional ride, especially you know, to
end Caesar's part to play in this story, I think it definitely is satisfying
in that sense. And to just conclude like where our Apes are after the
war, I think it's I think it's definitely a solid enough ending there and
very interested to what's gonna happen with Kingdom now that I'm all caught up.
There's been a there's been a good retro. There's been a lot of funny
moments so far, and definitely a top tier one. Yeah, yeah,
but no, it's been good, good movies. I think, good conversations
about like real life issues. We had some good meme and Joe's crad along
the way and yeah, let's just hope Kingdom planning Apes. Like even though
like you're lesser on I think there's other people lesser on this one. They
got they got a high bar to follow, and I don't know, I
never watched divergent movies. For me, that's nothing that I thought was like,
this guy should direct Apes. So again, as I said, as
well, this is the guy that's directing Zelda. So for me, this
movie has to have some goods because I feel like Wes Ball but remember after
he's directing a live action Zelda movie, it's Kingdom Plannet. So it's like,
to me, it's like if this sucks, it's like and this dude
doing Zelda like so it's like there's to me there's a lot writing on this.
I I for me, what I'm hoping is it's at least the quality
of Rise, and then you can build upon that. But because I'm not
expecting you to be Matt Reeve, because Matt Reeves is like I think he's
like, you know, floating the ether between these films and the Batman to
be like something special. But you know, you gotta you at least gotta
match it somewhat. So we will see, we'll be there. There'll be
a spoilers of you at some point. I think ours is going to be
a day earlier. We got a screening, so look out for that.
And uh yeah, thank you everyone that checked out this retro let us know,
and we're not done. We'll do the review and then we'll do a
rankings. Episode'll rank the movies, characters, villains, all that stuff.
And I promise you it'll not be born. But