WEBVTT

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As we answered the nine to one
one called, and we see the police

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call, and we see the ambulance
that has decided that it's going to roll

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up. We get to the point. The Associated Press investigate over one thousand

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cases of unintentionally fatal interventions by police
between twenty twelve and twenty twenty one and

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found that sedative administration took place prior
to ninety four of those deaths, nearly

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ten percent of non firearm police subdued
deaths in that time period. AP's investigation

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discovered a disproportionate impact on black individuals, with administering providers as well as medical

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examiners citing excited delirium as the reason
for administration and as the cause of death

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after the fact, a diagnosis that
is starting to come under contest by medical

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experts. The article also points to
the lack of scrutiny when sedatives are administered

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prior to police involved civilian deaths,
where focus remains on police actions rather than

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on medical interventions. The story is
from AP News by Ryan J. Foley,

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Karla K. Johnson, and Shelby
Lum on April twenty six, twenty

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twenty four. It's yeah difficult.
It was difficult leading. It was,

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Yeah, and I took a special
interest in this one because I worked in

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EMS before I used to be in
EMT, and it talked a lot about

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police directing the administration of sative and
especially ketamine or just controlled narcotics in general.

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And I don't ever remember, you
know, working with a law enforcement

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officer that would ever have like dictated
how a medic should you know, provide

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care to a patient, or a
medic that would have listened. So a

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lot of this was really shocking for
me to read and and and and learn

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about. So if I can jump
in for six, so if I read

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this just to get to the heart
of the article. Basically, when police

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are arresting an individual and the individual
is not complying, what I understand here

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is that the police are using drugs
to sedate the person to make it easier

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to control them. Is that center
it right? That's how I understood it.

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But it was it was the narcotics
administered by the e M s,

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the you know, the paramedics to
show up on scene. Is how at

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least how it because at least in
areas where I've worked, there was no

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police agencies that have been trained in
narcotic administration and all. That's purely a

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paramedic thing. E mts don't do
that. That's paramedics. So whether there's

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advanced cmts, but by and large, you know, so to speak,

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So that's sort of where where it's
coming from. So it was the paramedic

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aspect of it that I really sort
of took a special interest in. But

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I have so much I could say
about this, Phoebe, But what do

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you want to It reminds me not
police, you know, administering these drugs

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and stuff, But it reminds me
of a case that came out of Utah

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where a woman was a where a
nurse refused police access to a patient who

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had been involved in the current acident. Police officer walked in and said,

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I have to take a blood sample. He said, I must take a

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blood sample. I must take a
blood sample. Nope, you have to

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get a warrant. And he went, no, I must take a blood

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sample, and it escalated and nestigated. She refused, and she got arrested

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by him because the police officer believed
he was above the law, believed what

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he said went And that seems very
much the case here. The police officer

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feels I'm above the law. The
law doesn't apply to me. And that's

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why there are so many things wrong
with the police situation in the United States.

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First one, as a legally trained
person is qualified immunity. Qualified immunity

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means that police officers think they have
an unmitigated, unfettered right to make up

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the law and behave like bullies.
Second one, I suppose a sense of

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pregmatism. Would it be phoebe Well, yeah, it's a sense of superiority.

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Almost. I have qualified immunity because
I'm a police officer. I couldn't

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do as I please because I'm a
police officer. They need taking down a

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peg or two. And the bottom
is and I wouldn't normally say this is

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that they trade union is the problem
for turn order of police is the problem

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because they stop accountability of the police, They threaten lawsuit, and they reduce

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the training that goes on, and
it just leads the situations where things of

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this nature go on and on and
on, and everyone gets angry when it

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happens, but nothing ever changes.
Rodney King happened, George Floyd happened.

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I mean, Scott, you have
lived through these things in America. Not

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you personally, but you've literally these
events occur. Is this a shock to

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you to read this? You know, it's in one respect it is a

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shock. It's a shocking story.
It's a it's a it's a it's shocking

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in that it's painful and frightening and
angering and sad that this kind of thing

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is happening. It's not shot,
it's not surprising, it's not unexpected.

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In fact, as the math guy
here, I felt like obligated to look

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up some stats here. So in
I looked up police killings, okay,

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and so I found Prison Policy Initiative. They gathered data from ten wealthy countries

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Australia, Canada, England, Germany, Iceland, Japan, Netherlands, New

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Zealand, Norway and the US,
and in twenty nineteen, US police killed

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one thousand and ninety nine civilians.
In second place was Canada with thirty six.

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Okay, So clearly there's something happening
here in the United States that's different

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than the rest of the world.
In addition to that, the same in

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a different study, I saw that
the rate is increasing. Between twenty thirteen

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and twenty twenty three, the number
of police killings in a year went from

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one thy seventy nine and twenty thirteen
to one thousand, three hundred and fifty

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two and twenty twenty three. That's
a twenty five percent an increase in ten

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years. So I think what we
can learn here is that there's something fundamentally

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different in the way that the police
in the United States interact with the public

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when we're comparing to other wealthy countries
and so on one hand, we could

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say that there's some bad apples out
there, and I'm sure that's the case,

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but I think the data shows that
the problem is systemic, and in

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order to solve the systemic problem,
we're going to need a systemic solution.

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Now what that solution is, you
know, I think that's that's up for

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debate. But it's clearly something is
different in the United States than elsewhere in

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the world. You're on mute phoebe. In Britain, we have non lethal

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ways of dealing with this. So
when somebody is, you know, acting

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violently, they are restrained with certain
things, so they'll have you know,

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their legs will be bound together,
it'll be handcuffed. If they're spitting them

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have a spit hood. You're one
reach in Britain for the nearest bottle of

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ketamine to go. What what our
doctor and police officers and medics doing here

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injecting people with random medication, randomly
injecting medication into people that you don't know

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what reaction is going to happen,
and you could be killing somebody with an

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allergic reaction to that. I mean, I can't speak for America, I

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definitely can't speak for Australia, but
that does seem like something that you shouldn't

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be doing. Hmm yeah, yeahe
Some police in some jurisdiction seem very punitive

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to willing to sedate people who are
in reality posing no threat, especially when

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they're aurea restrained. And I think
the George Floyd footage is a good is

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a good example of that. And
just listen to this. Relating back to

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the Australian experience and in particular the
state of Victoria back in the eighties and

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nineties, in the State of Victoria, the Armed Robbery Squad, the Armed

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Robbery Squad of the Victoria Police were
very much shoot first, to ask questions

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later, and that's if the guy
survived. And basically what then happened was

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that the the crooks basically ambushed police
and started killing police back in revenge,

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and so became this like tit for
tat where you know, there were dead

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bodies, you know, dead bodies, broken families, all all this kind

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of stuff in the name of justice, in the name of catching the crooks.

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And I think there has to be
a line where you know, you

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shouldn't have to break the law to
enforce the law. I mean, do

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you process in America exactly? And
a lot of And the problem is is

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that if you if you're killing or
injuring the person you're trying to arrest,

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you know, especially especially if they
die, then you know you've removed their

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chance of natural justice. If you're
you know, negligent actions in either administering

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ketamene or you know, resting on
someone's neck or whatever has caused them to

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not be able to defend themselves in
front of the law, then you know

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you've removed the dignity of the person
but also denied the chance of natural justice.

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And which is thanks guys. The
thing to remember here is what if

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the tables were turned. What if
the police officer that administered this drug one

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day was having it administered to them
in life. Yes, so there definitely

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is a lot of questions around consent
and when it comes to this. Obviously

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all medical treatments require consent, and
there's you know, different aspects that come

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into play when when you have like
an unconscious person or a person who isn't

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capable alert and oriented to make their
own decisions and things like that. But

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I remember, I remember watching the
video and thinking, so Demitrio Jackson was

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the name of one of the individuals
that they really focused on in the article,

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and they had a video about him, and I remember watching the moment

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where they administered the kademine to him, and Ketymine, by the way,

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isn't isn't classified as a sedative drug. It's a dissociative anesthetic. And what

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are is said really does is stops
responsive nerves essentially from reacting to stimuli.

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So things like when your body doesn't
realize that it has too much carbon dioxide

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inside it, it doesn't engage that
breathing mechanism to breathe off that carbon dioxide,

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which is what it seems like happy
with the Mutro Jackson, unless I'm

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misunderstanding it, which is a possibility. But when these things are happening,

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and in the moment that he got
that shot, it did not seem like

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he was being combative. He did
not need to be, you know,

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sedated. They use these narcotics or
these drugs as what they call chemical restraints,

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and it just didn't seem like he
needed to be restrained any further.

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He and the other medical experts in
the video that they interviewed seemed to have

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the same opinion. So there really
is a huge question about, like the

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consent issue. He was alert and
oriented to make his own decisions and did

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not consent, nor did he need
that drug for his or anybody else's safety.

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So that that probably came largely into
play during the court case for those

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those ems professions, because we talk
here about medical consent here. But the

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other thing that we have to take
into consideration here is that, particularly and

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focus on this panel, is that
some individuals being injected with this is actually

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a violation of their religious rights.
To say, for example, if you

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were to have a Mormon that was
injected with these drugs, that could very

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easily be a violation of their religious
rights and other things that could happen,

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so you could have a Jehovah's witness
that is injected with this. Are they

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abstain from all these drugs, abstain
from medical treatment, and you just decide

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you're going to inject mean you're violating
their religious rights, aren't you, Scott

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in one respect? Yes, you
know, religious rates don't trump the law

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and public safety. I mean they're
they're at the film which I've taught,

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we talked about First Amendment though,
pardon, but the freedom of religion and

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the exercise their role of your religion
is guaranteed by the First Amendment. So

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if you've got no consent here to
have these chemicals put into your body,

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right, But but the First Amendment
doesn't, like I said, it doesn't.

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I mean, if you are are
if you have a firmly held religious

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belief that you're allowed to take whatever
you want from anybody you, that doesn't

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mean you can and the police can
stop you. The police are allowed to

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do things that that the general population
are not. They're allowed to put you

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in handcuffs against your consent. They're
allowed to put you in a a in

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a car and take you away and
lock you in a room. And if

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if I did that to somebody,
I'd be arrested for kidnapping, and so

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so I think consent is certainly part
of the part of the equation here.

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However, we need to I mean, it needs to be reasonable what the

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police are doing. I think that
there are cases where administering a sedative or

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eli what was the phrase that you
use for kiddamine, it was not a

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senative, asthetic, dissociative anesthetic,
I mean basically a drug that will calm

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you down or stop you from from
reacting violently. There an argument can be

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made that there would be cases where
that is in the in the best interest

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of the individual and in the best
interest of of the public. And the

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problem that that really stuck out to
me in this particular article was that the

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medical professionals were not being uh listened
to. The police were pressuring uh the

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e mts to administer the drug.
They were uh, you know, against

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their best medical judgment. And so
so that I think is part of the

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issue. It's yes, I agree
that, uh, you know that a

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person's religious rights need to be weighed, a person's individual consent needs to be

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weighed. Part of that, though, is the safety of the of the

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individual. Part of that is the
safety of of the the public at large.

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I think the police, of the
police that are untrained shouldn't be making

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this decision. I have to stop
you there, to stop you, Okay.

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The thing here, though, is
why is it so prevalent? Why

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is it that the first thing that
the police officer is doing is grabbing that

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vile and going thump. Why is
that happening so frequently when I cannot see

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analogous things happen in any European country, in any Oceana country, in Canada?

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Why is America reaching for the drugs
before it goes through every other step.

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Britain has violent individuals, It doesn't
have police officers reaching for glass vials

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and hypodermic needles, and police officers
aren't getting killed by violent individuals. So

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why are America reaching for that glass
vial first? Well, because our police

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aren't trained about that, about proper
use of restraint and proper use of control,

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and it's the easy way out take
for examp sample. Now that this

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example is definitely on a different plane
when it comes to seriousness here, but

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I think there's a kernel of similarity
between uh, the situation we're talking about

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here and young parents with children that
are just you know, you know,

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infants that are just crying and they
and they won't calm down. I've I

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have, I have two kids myself. I've been in that situation. And

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you feel, especially with your first
child, you feel a sense of panic,

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You feel a sense of wanting to
do something. You feel a sense

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of what can I do to fix
this problem now? And so there can

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be there can be a strong temptation
to maybe give your your child Benadeaux for

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example. Okay, it has a
side effect of making the person who takes

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it sleepy, right, and so
if we compare h uh, Now,

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my wife and I we tried not
to do that, but I have to

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admit that there were some cases where
we were a little bit generous with the

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directions, a little bit generous with
the with the symptoms that are good.

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Are you sure that's not a cold? Are you sure that I think that's

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that looks like an reaction to me, maybe we should give you know,

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And and so I can I can
understand the temptation there to want to want

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to do something, want to take
what we could argue our very extreme response.

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Now compare that to when my second
child and I was much more experienced

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I had. I knew what you
know, the normal behavior of an infant

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was. I knew things that were
effective. I knew I had a new

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sense of patience. I had a
new sense of confidence as a parent.

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And and I think that underlines what
I was talking about before about the training

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of the police officers. It's it's
it's a it's a it's a naive,

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lazy response, okay. And and
when I was when I was first a

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parent, I was a naive and
lazy parent. I became better at it

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as I got as I got more
experience, and as I learned more.

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And I think that same kind of
thing can be applied here. We need

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to you know, we need to
train UH police to respond appropriately and to

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listen to medical pfer nationals when necessary. And so you know, and the

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lie I think has to step in
and nail it down in order for those

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kind of decisions to be made.
I mean, Damien, you brought up

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Victoria Police in Australia. Were the
police held to a higher standard because they

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were the police when they were engaged
in what is effectively shoot first? Yeah,

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well, look, eventually the reason
why Victoria, what the death threat

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for Victoria police came about was because
to junior constables were ambushed by criminals.

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And in the inquest that happened after
that, it was discovered that the Victoria

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police had a shoot first mentality,
and so when they revisited, like how

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can we do this better, they
realized that, you know, basically the

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Victoria Police were essentially criminals in blue
uniforms trying to like crooks in blue uniforms

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trying to catch other crooks was essentially
how it was. So then they underwent

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a cultural shift where it was about
training. It was about you know,

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learning how to effectively restrain perfectly restrained
people and you know, ensuring that that

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they're alive as far as could be
after a police interaction, to the point

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where a few a few years ago, there was a bank robber who was

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on the run and so he was
holed up in a particular house and he

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was shot by bean bag bullets.
And the story goes was that when he

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was arrested, he asked if he
could keep the bean bag round that knocked

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him out, and the police said
no. Unfortunately. You know, it

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was so we have we've kind of
undergone a shift where like shooting is like

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the last thing. You know,
we use tasers, we use capsicum spray,

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we use you know, other other
things. This isn't to say that

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we where we are, we've got
it right. But you know, I

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would much rather be arrested by a
Victoria police then let's say Michigan or Utah

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police. And if you have comments
on which police force you'd prefer to be

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arrested by,