1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,559 So I had this love for still the physical, especially physical science that I 2 00:00:04,599 --> 00:00:08,560 was trying to use in my studies. I was talking with you to try 3 00:00:08,599 --> 00:00:11,839 to get more into the symbolic prology. I was also talking with John Riricki 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,359 about the cognitive science side, and also in general. It was great on 5 00:00:15,759 --> 00:00:19,640 the physics side, and I was always trying to bridge, mainly between you 6 00:00:19,719 --> 00:00:21,800 and John. I would say, yeah, it took several years. I 7 00:00:21,839 --> 00:00:24,920 would often like run arguments by you and by him, and like try to 8 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,960 see if I can make something through this. I developed, I think pretty 9 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:34,560 carefully a path from materialism all the way to the symbolic world and even up 10 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:39,320 to the more let's say, esoteric debates in symbolism, like how is it 11 00:00:39,359 --> 00:00:42,560 exactly that the world exists in Christ? And how is it that the world 12 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:49,840 exists through human consciousness? And like all of these more esoteric kind of questions. 13 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:12,159 This is Jonathan Pshell come to the Symbolic World. So hello everyone, 14 00:01:12,519 --> 00:01:18,239 I am very happy to be here with JP Marso JP. For those who 15 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,000 have followed the Channel for a very long time, you see him on the 16 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,920 channel for years. He was the editor of the Symbolic World blog. He's 17 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:29,480 really been a partner in kind of developing a lot of the symbolic world ideas. 18 00:01:30,519 --> 00:01:34,200 And we're going to launch a course where he's going to be giving a 19 00:01:34,239 --> 00:01:38,920 class called the Metaphysics of Symbolism, where we're going to look at the relationship 20 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:44,480 between metaphysical ideas and the symbolic world as we kind of present it, and 21 00:01:44,519 --> 00:01:48,599 also his take on it. I'll be part of it to some extent, 22 00:01:48,799 --> 00:01:53,159 He'll be doing part of it alone. And we're also announcing that we are 23 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:57,439 going to publish a book on the same subject by JP and so I'm really 24 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,840 happy to see all this coming together. He's just been such a great help 25 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:05,239 all this time to help me think through because he has such clear thinking. 26 00:02:05,319 --> 00:02:07,799 More than I do. I get kind of he has a very kind of 27 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:12,520 clear thinking. We've been doing a French podcast for years now that you can 28 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:16,560 also find on YouTube. If you just write Jonathan Pegel French you can find 29 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:19,960 that you can find the podcast. We'll put a link in the description. 30 00:02:20,039 --> 00:02:23,439 So GP, it's good to see you, and I thought maybe we could 31 00:02:23,479 --> 00:02:27,759 start with you telling people a little bit how you came to this. You 32 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,759 know, what what your what your story is, because it's pretty interesting. 33 00:02:30,319 --> 00:02:35,240 Yeah, for sure, thanks. I never told it on your channel. 34 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:43,840 Basic background was really into science during my teenage years. I had been raised 35 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:50,599 Catholic in in Quebec, classic practicing family, but when I was a teenager 36 00:02:51,199 --> 00:02:57,199 drifted away from the faith mentioned science as one of the excuses that say, 37 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,800 to make my parents stop bringing me to church. But I was still interested 38 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:10,120 by questions of meaning. I think these questions pop up naturally if you push 39 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:16,400 let's say the scientifical view far enough. I was just not very impressed by 40 00:03:16,439 --> 00:03:21,719 the philosophy that I had seen when I was younger, let's say, in 41 00:03:21,759 --> 00:03:27,439 high school or say jep that we have here in Quebec. So I decided 42 00:03:27,479 --> 00:03:32,439 to study math in computer science in university because I was mainly interested in mathematical 43 00:03:32,719 --> 00:03:38,479 logic and theoretical computer science. There's all kinds of cool theorems you can prove 44 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:44,639 about certain formal systems, what they can and cannot prove. It gives you 45 00:03:44,639 --> 00:03:49,360 sort of an idea of how far you can push knowledge in some areas. 46 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:53,240 So anyway, I was really interested by that. But I think, like 47 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:58,360 many people with this basic scientific education, what I ended up sort of inheriting 48 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:04,199 at the side effect was a material stick traditionalistic worldview where I guess you spend 49 00:04:04,199 --> 00:04:12,759 so many hours like trying to do problems where you reduce things to their constituent 50 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,800 bits that at some point it sort of became normal for me to just see 51 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,879 the world as particles moving about and even people, Like it was harn't for 52 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:26,120 me to see people as something else then, just complex sets of particles that 53 00:04:26,399 --> 00:04:30,399 evolved randomly through natural selection to like have complex behaviors. But family, it's 54 00:04:30,519 --> 00:04:40,040 just reducible two particles. And yeah, I just ad this basic kind of 55 00:04:40,079 --> 00:04:44,040 worldview where it was hard to find meaning, like in my ontology and also 56 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:48,000 epistemologically in terms of what we can know. I was really drawn to mathematics 57 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:53,000 because it seemed like you can have like sure knowledge of things in mathematics. 58 00:04:53,079 --> 00:04:58,639 That wasn't the case where that wasn't the case for the philosophy courses I add 59 00:04:58,879 --> 00:05:01,639 before, Like mostly people were just doubting everything in philosphy, That's what I 60 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,959 saw it back then. But at least in math I could prove stuff, 61 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:09,720 So like, maybe it's not obvious how I can talk about meaningful topics in 62 00:05:09,759 --> 00:05:13,360 mathematics, but at least we seem to be going somewhere because we seem certain 63 00:05:13,399 --> 00:05:18,079 of what we're doing. But even then, in mathematical logic, I like 64 00:05:18,199 --> 00:05:21,600 tried to take as many courses as I could early on to see the proof 65 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:27,959 of Girdles incompleteness theorems. And now when I saw the proof, I saw 66 00:05:27,959 --> 00:05:30,879 that, well, I guess even in math you can be that short of 67 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:36,759 what you're doing. I had heard about Girdle's famous theorem that no formal system 68 00:05:36,879 --> 00:05:41,759 that is coherent will be complete, and I had heard about it. But 69 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,240 typically when you have these really cool sounding theorems in math or physics, like 70 00:05:46,519 --> 00:05:50,079 when you actually get to them and you see all the postulids that are required 71 00:05:50,079 --> 00:05:53,759 for them, they're actually not that cool. But in that case, that 72 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:58,240 was truth, Like it was really as devastating as it sounds. So what 73 00:05:58,439 --> 00:06:01,680 ended up happening is like, okay, like I had this world where I 74 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,680 saw everyone as just bits of matter, where it was hard to find meaning 75 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:11,519 in that, and my knowledge, like my access to knowledge in the world 76 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,639 that used to be mediated by mathematics, even that was destroyed by good Old's 77 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,399 theorem. So I was a bit a bit at rift, like like is 78 00:06:18,439 --> 00:06:21,720 anything worth doing? Really? I wasn't doing that bad, Like it sounds 79 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,279 more depressing than it was. It just it just was great. But I 80 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,600 thought, like, if everything is meaningless anyway, I might as well think 81 00:06:28,639 --> 00:06:30,279 about it to make sure that, like, I'm not screwing this up somehow. 82 00:06:30,319 --> 00:06:36,720 So I decided to do a master's in the philosophy, especially about reductionism, 83 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:40,920 to try to see if, like something was wrong with my worldview. 84 00:06:41,399 --> 00:06:46,680 Is reductionism wrong and can we talk about meaning and good and evil somehow can 85 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:48,399 we recover that. I had no expectation at all that it would work, 86 00:06:48,439 --> 00:06:50,800 but I thought, well, if everything is meaningless anyway, as might as 87 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,319 well try. You know, well, there's literally nothing to lose. So 88 00:06:55,480 --> 00:07:00,720 during the course of my master's Joan Peterson popped up onto this scene, and 89 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,680 as soon as I hear did him talk about the meaning and good and evil 90 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:06,439 in terms that I hadn't heard before, I just tried to look into it, 91 00:07:08,439 --> 00:07:13,000 and through that I also stumbled upon you. I think I started. 92 00:07:15,519 --> 00:07:19,079 I think I started contributing to your Patreon as soon as right away. You 93 00:07:19,079 --> 00:07:24,000 were one of the first people that supported me. Yeah, that was crazy, 94 00:07:24,279 --> 00:07:27,480 because I knew you were doing something interesting and I wanted to talk to 95 00:07:27,519 --> 00:07:29,839 you because I didn't really understand what you and Jordan were doing, to be 96 00:07:29,879 --> 00:07:31,920 honest, but I wanted, like I wanted some kind of access to to 97 00:07:31,959 --> 00:07:34,079 try to dive into it. And I had lots of time because I was 98 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:40,839 with my masters in something related and one of the first things we talked about 99 00:07:40,959 --> 00:07:45,199 was zombies because you were having you it was the existential question for you. 100 00:07:45,279 --> 00:07:48,120 It wasn't just a theoretical question. Yeah, exactly. I think I wonder 101 00:07:48,199 --> 00:07:50,800 how comment of a thing that is, Like, obviously it's present in the 102 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:57,040 common imagination because there's lots of zombie movies and books and so on. But 103 00:07:57,399 --> 00:08:01,720 basically, if I think back about this period of my life, while I 104 00:08:01,839 --> 00:08:07,120 was studying abstractly nihilism and materialism during the day in my studies, I would 105 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:11,160 spend like all night long exploring the same topics symbolically having zombie nightmares. So 106 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:16,680 like, for literally like all night every night for about a year, I 107 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:22,000 had like zombie nightmares. It again sounds worse than it is, Like, 108 00:08:22,079 --> 00:08:24,399 Actually, what ended up happening after a while is I sort of figured out 109 00:08:24,759 --> 00:08:30,000 what was like going on, Like because initially, if you just wake up 110 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:31,600 every time you have such a nightmare, like you'll never sleep. So at 111 00:08:31,639 --> 00:08:35,840 some point I sort of understood that it was just like just yet another zombie 112 00:08:35,879 --> 00:08:39,399 nightmare. So like even if I would get eaten or someone, I wouldn't 113 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,600 actually wake up. I would just like I knew that I would just start 114 00:08:41,639 --> 00:08:43,679 another dream, but it never stopped, so like just this end the cycle 115 00:08:43,759 --> 00:08:50,320 of zombie nightmares. But I ended up getting rid of my zombie problem in 116 00:08:50,399 --> 00:08:54,159 part thanks to you and John ERVEACKI. It was really a series of steps. 117 00:08:56,120 --> 00:09:05,000 First, in my studies, I was looking at, specifically arguments against 118 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:11,679 materialism and trying to find alternative ways of framing the world. At that stage, 119 00:09:11,799 --> 00:09:16,039 specifically, I had seen enough arguments against materialism in flaws Feet that I 120 00:09:16,039 --> 00:09:20,879 could drop materialism and adopt petsnychism. At the time, I felt that was 121 00:09:20,919 --> 00:09:24,559 a nice easy bridge to make, and then from there started to dive into 122 00:09:24,799 --> 00:09:28,960 some and yeah, what I should say is as soon as I did that, 123 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,519 there n be night mare started to go away, like they were cut 124 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,679 down I don't know, fifteen ninety percent, and like to a good extent, 125 00:09:35,039 --> 00:09:37,440 like they started to go away. I still ad them, but it 126 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:41,720 was less frequent and then next step was diving into a little bit of classical 127 00:09:41,799 --> 00:09:46,279 metaphysics, especially with regards to virtue ethics. Okay, if there isn't just 128 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:52,000 a matter in the world, if people aren't just particles following blind laws, 129 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:58,360 is there like also some kind of good and evil that we can talk about. 130 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,480 It's not immediate, like, because you're not a materialist doesn't mean that 131 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:05,159 you don't necessarily have antology that allows you to speak about good and evil. 132 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:13,480 But through classical philosophy I was able to find good arguments for that, things 133 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,960 we can find in Plato and Aristotle, but also new arguments coming from cognitive 134 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:22,799 science, some of the things that John Ervicki and Jordan and you talk about. 135 00:10:22,159 --> 00:10:28,360 So like a big thing for me was realizing that in general, perception 136 00:10:28,639 --> 00:10:33,840 is something that we practice, and it's not just our moral perceptions that we 137 00:10:33,879 --> 00:10:39,360 need to practice and improve, it's just our perception of everything. It's something 138 00:10:39,399 --> 00:10:43,320 that we know from developing infants, Like initially infants can't really see like it's 139 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:48,720 something they really have to practice, And when you sort of know that this 140 00:10:48,799 --> 00:10:52,759 happens in infants, you can start to pick that up also in yourself. 141 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,679 An example, I always come back to is Brazilian jujitsu or like any complex 142 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,919 sport really like, if you look at it initially, you won't see anything 143 00:11:01,279 --> 00:11:03,919 like You'll just see chaos basically, like you know, okay, at the 144 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:05,519 beginning of the fight, two people like are setting up and at the end 145 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:09,720 there's one person that's obviously losing and is tapping out. But you don't see 146 00:11:09,879 --> 00:11:13,240 really what happened in between. You don't have the perception to make out the 147 00:11:13,279 --> 00:11:18,080 pattern from the multiplicity of moves going on. So I just literally have that 148 00:11:18,159 --> 00:11:20,039 experience that we talked about it where I'm watching a match and then all of 149 00:11:20,039 --> 00:11:24,039 a sudden, the people that are there cheering and I'm like, what am 150 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:28,559 I There's nothing happening. I can't see what's happening, Like they know that 151 00:11:28,039 --> 00:11:31,879 now the person is in the right position to do this or that, but 152 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:33,919 I have no idea. I'm just looking. And then, like you said, 153 00:11:33,919 --> 00:11:35,759 at some point, one guy loses, and I'm like, what the 154 00:11:35,799 --> 00:11:39,679 hell just happened? I don't know what I would just watch. But if 155 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:46,080 you practice the sport and you discuss it with others and you also like have 156 00:11:46,159 --> 00:11:48,200 a habit of watching it, eventually you start to pick up the patterns like 157 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:52,759 a child who is learning to see objects, you learn to see moves in 158 00:11:52,879 --> 00:11:56,320 jiu jitsu, And the same thing happens with more abstract truths as well. 159 00:11:56,519 --> 00:12:03,240 That's basically what happens with I think moral truths. There's even this good theory 160 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:09,519 I Think by Jonathan It and a few of his colleagues about moral foundations theory. 161 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:13,960 It says that we it's kind of like with with visual perception. Let's 162 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:18,960 say there's all kinds of photons in our eyes. There's like all this multiplicity, 163 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:22,960 but it takes time for us to turn that multiplicity into coherent patterns to 164 00:12:22,039 --> 00:12:24,440 make out the world. In the same way, we seem to have basic 165 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:31,320 moral intuitions that we used to make up more complex moral judgments. Like we 166 00:12:31,399 --> 00:12:39,399 have discussed that like is a very basic emotion that protects us from pathogens and 167 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,440 dangerous substances in general, but it's also a moral emotion that we end up 168 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:52,919 exacting to reject certain injustices or let's say, ideas that are also pathogens for 169 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:56,000 our tribe and this kind of stuff. So like he has I Think this 170 00:12:56,159 --> 00:13:00,519 good theory where you can see how there's like these basic senses that we have 171 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,480 to perceive initially just chaotic multiplicity in the moral realm, but as we grow 172 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:11,600 up and we try to practice our moral perceptions, we end up being able 173 00:13:11,639 --> 00:13:16,000 to perceive more and more complex patterns. Yeah, but it's important to say 174 00:13:16,159 --> 00:13:18,879 just just as you as you go through this, that understand that what's important 175 00:13:18,919 --> 00:13:24,679 to understand in what you said is that it makes the analogies real that when 176 00:13:24,759 --> 00:13:28,000 we use the analogy, for example, if we say you know that that 177 00:13:28,159 --> 00:13:33,080 this person is a parasite on the system that the analogy between and even the 178 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,759 mechanism by which we recognize a parasite, let's say, coming towards something dirty, 179 00:13:37,879 --> 00:13:41,320 something that that is that is dangerous physically, is the same mechanism that 180 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:48,000 we use to then see the moral or societal parasite. Yeah, and also 181 00:13:48,159 --> 00:13:52,240 like it, like I think this continuum of like when you understand that perception 182 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:56,279 is something you need to practice not just in morality, but also even just 183 00:13:56,279 --> 00:14:01,080 to perceive very basic objects, it makes it really hard to reject moral realism 184 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:07,120 on the basis of varieties between different nations or groups or tribes, for instance, 185 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,639 because if you were to look also at developing infants, like they also 186 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:13,559 can't really see the world, like they're very confused, that it takes long 187 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,919 time for them to be able to perceive like faces and objects and pick things 188 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,080 up, and like it's something we need to practice. The same way that 189 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:24,519 if like you're just starting to do jiu jitsu, you won't perceive what's happening. 190 00:14:24,559 --> 00:14:26,200 You'll be confused, and it's going to take longer for you to perceive 191 00:14:26,559 --> 00:14:33,279 jiu jitsu moves then to perceive like basic objects when you're an infant. Like 192 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,039 in the same way, it's going to take like all of your life to 193 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:39,600 improve your moral perception and still then like you probably won't be able to see 194 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:45,000 everything perfectly unless you become a saint. So it's not surprising that different cultures 195 00:14:45,159 --> 00:14:50,919 disagree about like how they perceive morality. It's just like, so these kinds 196 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:58,240 of ideas were able to destroy my moral relativism, and in like immediately when 197 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,159 that happened, my zampin i mayors were again cut down by like fifty or 198 00:15:01,159 --> 00:15:05,639 sixty or ninety percent. So at that point I were starting to have like 199 00:15:05,879 --> 00:15:09,759 way less zombie nightmares. I still add some, but like it was very 200 00:15:09,759 --> 00:15:13,639 manedgeible. I honestly thought it would just stay like this forever. But because 201 00:15:13,679 --> 00:15:18,440 I was supporting you on Patreon, we had like these regular chats and we 202 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:20,919 became friends, and at some point I asked you, like, what would 203 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,360 you do, like if if you were in my position, where like, 204 00:15:24,559 --> 00:15:31,120 okay, you were having a zombie nightmare right now, like you're you're the 205 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,799 main character in a zombie story. Let's see what do you do? Like, 206 00:15:33,799 --> 00:15:35,840 what's the what's the solution? How can I get out of this? 207 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:39,120 And we ended up working through it together. Do you remember what the solution 208 00:15:39,399 --> 00:15:41,919 was? You don't you remember? Yeah, I remember what it was. 209 00:15:43,039 --> 00:15:48,240 Actually we also like further improved it, I think two three years ago on 210 00:15:48,399 --> 00:15:52,519 the French podcast. But the initial solution was like it took us a few 211 00:15:52,519 --> 00:15:56,159 iterations to figure something out, but the basic idea we came up with was 212 00:15:56,759 --> 00:16:04,960 to do what Jesus would do, because like zombies are You've talked about this 213 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,879 on your channel before, zombies are a parody of the Christian resurrection. They're 214 00:16:10,879 --> 00:16:15,480 really a parody of the Christian world view, is specifically the Christian apocalypse, 215 00:16:15,759 --> 00:16:18,360 because zombies come back to life, but they don't have this glorious body they 216 00:16:18,399 --> 00:16:23,200 just have this decaying body. They are all together, but rather than being 217 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:30,000 in communion, they just like follow their impulses in the same direction. They 218 00:16:30,039 --> 00:16:33,320 look let's say unique and special, but it's only superficial. Really. The 219 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:38,120 only like all want to eat it is the same thing they like they eat 220 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:44,440 brains because it's the least remnant of meaning in the materialistic universe, Like they're 221 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,320 trying to destroy, like the only thing that doesn't fit quite right in the 222 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,639 materialistic worldview, like even if they try to to deny. So anyways, 223 00:16:51,639 --> 00:17:00,399 there's all these parallels between zombies and Christianity, where zombies are trying to basically 224 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:07,240 destroy the ancient meaning systems. And there's also the key I think in Jesus's 225 00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:15,160 story against this again to trample down death by death. So Jesus even today, 226 00:17:15,279 --> 00:17:19,680 like in the Eucharist, he lets us eat him, but doing that, 227 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:25,799 he actually eats us the same way that he let us kill him two 228 00:17:25,799 --> 00:17:27,359 thousand years ago, in a way that would bring us into his story to 229 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:33,240 make us saints. So like there's this key inside of christ story and we 230 00:17:33,279 --> 00:17:38,160 could go deeper into many details like what we do, especially during the Eucharistic 231 00:17:38,319 --> 00:17:45,000 lateurgy is the exact antidote to the meaning crisis and the zombie crisis, because 232 00:17:45,319 --> 00:17:49,400 zombies, like they just grown, they can't make sounds. But we saying 233 00:17:49,519 --> 00:17:55,319 when we're in the church, zombies just like jumble up to eat stuff and 234 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,000 destroy stuff, thinking only about themselves. But we're in church, we're praying 235 00:17:59,039 --> 00:18:02,519 for one another, being thankful towards the same thing, rather than just consuming 236 00:18:02,559 --> 00:18:06,640 everything for ourselves. So there's all these parallels you can make to see how 237 00:18:07,599 --> 00:18:12,319 Christianity is the specifically per spitting and returgies in llurgy is the solution to the 238 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:17,200 zombie problem. And what we came up with was, okay, then what 239 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:22,440 you would need to do is like somehow let yourself be eaten by zombies, 240 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:30,359 Like you would have to do something like spiritual like like pray or like find 241 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,519 some way in your zombie universe to become a saint, and then you let 242 00:18:33,599 --> 00:18:38,720 yourself be eaten by zombies to save even the zombies. And when we worked 243 00:18:38,799 --> 00:18:44,400 through that, then my nightmares disappeared. I never add one since then. 244 00:18:44,599 --> 00:18:48,720 The only times I add some after where when I would explicitly be trying to 245 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,119 write about my experiences for others but I never add this again for myself. 246 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,400 The dreams just run away. Yeah, And what's crazy about that is that 247 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,119 we kind of we did came up with this like a story. It was 248 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:06,720 like a narrative about the idea of a saint like like that get that roommate 249 00:19:06,799 --> 00:19:11,119 that lets himself be eaten and then wakes up truly let's say, resurrects truly 250 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,920 doesn't come back as a zombie, but comes back as a as a kind 251 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,960 of glorious being in the zombie story. Uh. And it's weird because it 252 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,200 seems like that's a story that should exist, like somebody should write it, 253 00:19:22,279 --> 00:19:25,960 you know that the idea, because I don't think that exists, the idea 254 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,920 of a zombie that wakes up from his state and retrieves, you know, 255 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,079 a kind of even a better level of consciousness that they had before. So 256 00:19:33,279 --> 00:19:36,799 you know that's out there, folks. Whoever does it? You know, 257 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:38,319 if you don't do it, at some point, I'll write it myself, 258 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,680 just because that story has to exist. Yeah. I think the closest I've 259 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:48,480 seen is Warm Bodies. It was meant into a movie, but there was 260 00:19:48,519 --> 00:19:52,319 also a book from futures ago, but the zombie doesn't come back to a 261 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,200 glorious body. Let's say it comes back to the same kind of existence. 262 00:19:56,079 --> 00:20:02,720 And there's like interesting I think, let's say facets of the Christian story you 263 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,079 can see in that movie and especially in the book. Like in the book, 264 00:20:06,079 --> 00:20:10,680 there's almost a baptism scene. At some point, the zombie like he's 265 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:15,359 starting to wake up basically out of love for one girl because he ate the 266 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:22,319 brains of his boyfriend. But like he ends up like slowly like developing feelings 267 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:23,759 towards that girl, and he saves her, spends time with her, and 268 00:20:23,839 --> 00:20:27,359 like through this attraction he becomes more and more human. But at some point 269 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,519 he has to make like a kind of confession, and there's a kind of 270 00:20:30,519 --> 00:20:34,559 baptism scene, like in front of her church when it's raining and he's washing 271 00:20:34,559 --> 00:20:38,960 his mouth from blood because he just ate someone but he didn't want to anyway, 272 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:45,359 Like there's this progression and the zombie ultimately smoiler alert shut this down if 273 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,640 you don't want to read the book or watch the film. But at the 274 00:20:48,759 --> 00:20:56,200 end, the zombie comes back to normal human life by sacrificing himself for that 275 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,839 girl, so like he has to basically like wrap himself around her as they're 276 00:21:00,839 --> 00:21:04,000 getting shot, and yes to like drop in like a building, I think, 277 00:21:04,319 --> 00:21:07,839 and like he's thinking he's gonna die during that, but he eventually like 278 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,640 drops in a pool, so again there's this water baptism thing. And then 279 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,640 when he comes back, like he sees that he's bleeding, so he's become 280 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:19,000 human again. So like you can see glimmers I think in popular culture of 281 00:21:19,079 --> 00:21:23,000 this this solution, but as you said, I don't think anyone has come 282 00:21:23,079 --> 00:21:27,240 up with the full narrative arc so far. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 283 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,440 well that's part of the that that part of what's coming over the hill, 284 00:21:30,519 --> 00:21:33,000 let's say, on storytelling. You know, it seems like it's a perfect 285 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,720 story to tell. So so basically that was the that is kind of what 286 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,319 healed you. But that also kind of that involved going back to church and 287 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,279 involved getting married, like your whole life changed, really yeah yeah, yeah 288 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:49,400 yeah. I think as soon as soon as it worked out the let's see 289 00:21:49,559 --> 00:21:52,960 moral layer, as soon as I could see that, okay, I have 290 00:21:52,039 --> 00:21:56,400 a metaphysics where it's starting to be possible to talk about good and evil, 291 00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:00,680 then I started going back to church. I was brought up Catholic. I've 292 00:22:00,759 --> 00:22:04,960 done my sacraments when I was a child. So I just came back and 293 00:22:06,599 --> 00:22:12,880 eventually like found a really good parish here. There's sort of this blessing in 294 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,960 disguise that we have here, Like in Quebec, the church collapse so much 295 00:22:17,039 --> 00:22:19,079 that the people who are left are actually like really trying to do it for 296 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:23,160 the right reasons, and like it becomes really clear examples of what to follow. 297 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:29,759 So found a really great parish here pretty quickly, got involved with different 298 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,359 groups that really helped me. Found the woman that I married and now that 299 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:41,160 I have a son with, and yeah, like the like as you said, 300 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:48,799 this intellectual path really followed also a concrete, like embodied path in a 301 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,240 community that I was lucky to find. So yeah, this big path of 302 00:22:52,559 --> 00:22:59,279 transformation and no more Zmi nightmares, no more nihilism. And so that has 303 00:22:59,279 --> 00:23:00,839 helped you in some ways, because one of the things that I've been impressed 304 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:06,079 by you is that the fact that you really have studied philosophy quite a bit, 305 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,519 and you know, you've talked a lot with John Raveki, with several 306 00:23:08,559 --> 00:23:15,079 people that are in this sphere, and so you've been able to talk about 307 00:23:15,079 --> 00:23:18,960 symbolism in a more technical way using more philosophical language, and that is what 308 00:23:19,519 --> 00:23:22,440 the book is going to be, and that, in some ways is what 309 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,599 the class is going to be, to help people have more precise language, 310 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:30,160 even a language that is closer to the ones that you will hear in university 311 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:34,440 and stuff, because both Mattyr and I. Mattsyr developed really his own language 312 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:40,640 which is very powerful and beautiful. But I also recognize that some people they 313 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,480 when they try to explain it to their friends in school, they struggle to 314 00:23:44,559 --> 00:23:48,440 find the way to link it to the to the And I have the same 315 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,400 problem. People accuse me of being imprecise, of not using the right words 316 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,400 and not knowing the right words, and so I'm really happy to see this 317 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,759 this as a possibility to help kind of bolster the case. So maybe you 318 00:23:57,799 --> 00:24:00,519 can tell us a bit about what the thesis is and what it is you're 319 00:24:00,559 --> 00:24:07,480 hoping to accomplish with it. Yeah, So I'm trying to aid the book 320 00:24:07,519 --> 00:24:11,920 specifically for people who were sort of in the position where I was ten years 321 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:18,160 ago, where you're in the course of an education focused on science and you're 322 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:23,839 developing this sort of materialism as a result, and you're wondering if there's another 323 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:34,039 solution and for I think people of this kind of character, the arguments as 324 00:24:34,079 --> 00:24:38,160 they're sometimes presented will be a bit too fast, Like phenomology didn't work for 325 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,960 me, like it like either it wouldn't click or I would sort of understand 326 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:45,480 what you were saying, but I think it was going too fast, and 327 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:52,599 it was gonna make me drop some of the value that I saw in physics 328 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,720 and math. Like there's stuff that I just, let's say, loved too 329 00:24:55,799 --> 00:24:59,759 much still in that scientific world view to be able to drop it too quickly 330 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,319 with phenomenology. I know that ultimately, like you can recover physics from phenomenology, 331 00:25:03,319 --> 00:25:07,720 but at first it does feel like you're abandoning something that you really love. 332 00:25:08,039 --> 00:25:11,720 So, as you said, glad you're doing that because I don't have 333 00:25:11,839 --> 00:25:15,240 I don't have like a specific love for physics myself, so it's good that 334 00:25:15,279 --> 00:25:21,160 you that you're doing. And as you said, what ended up happening is 335 00:25:22,039 --> 00:25:26,599 like, okay, So I had this love for for still the physical especially 336 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:33,000 physical science that I was trying to like still use in my studies. I 337 00:25:33,079 --> 00:25:36,240 was talking with you to try to get more into the symbolic epology. I 338 00:25:36,279 --> 00:25:41,240 was also talking with John RIVICKI about the cognitive science side, and also in 339 00:25:41,319 --> 00:25:45,079 general. It was great on the physics side, and I was always trying 340 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,720 to bridge, mainly between you and John. I would say, yeah, 341 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,319 and it took, it took several years. I would often like run arguments 342 00:25:52,319 --> 00:25:55,440 by you and by him, and like try to see if I can make 343 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,200 something. Most of our conversations you and I Jonathan were in private on like 344 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,359 for Patreon chats with John. All of my discussions are public on my channel 345 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:08,559 or on its channel. But basically, as you said, like through this 346 00:26:08,599 --> 00:26:15,119 I developed I think, pretty carefully a path from materialism all the way to 347 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:23,000 the symbolic world and even up to the more let's say, esoteric debates in 348 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,640 similism, like how is it exactly that the world exists in Christ? And 349 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,799 how is it that the world exists through human consciousness? And like all of 350 00:26:30,839 --> 00:26:34,680 these more esoteric kind of questions. You can get there pretty quickly with phenomenology. 351 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,599 But as I said, this was too much for me, so I 352 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,599 go I went at it very slowly, and I tried to document it in 353 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:48,279 the book. So the main thesis is that we're in a meaning crisis because 354 00:26:48,319 --> 00:26:52,200 of materialistic reductionism. I use the zombie myth to talk about it, and 355 00:26:52,279 --> 00:26:57,319 then I try to the way that I try to do it to go slowly. 356 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,960 As I said, is I tried to show like within science itself, 357 00:27:02,319 --> 00:27:07,319 there's no good way anymore to be a reductionist. This is like in nineteenth 358 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,240 century you of science, it doesn't work. Not only can you still have 359 00:27:11,839 --> 00:27:15,680 your science, including your physics today by going towards non reductive materialism, non 360 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:21,079 reductive naturalism, sorry, you'll even have like a better science and better physics 361 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,960 to love. So I'm trying to give something to materialists so they don't have 362 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,240 to drop anything, they actually just add something better. So that's the first 363 00:27:27,279 --> 00:27:30,960 part of the book where I try to take people from materialism to non reductive 364 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:37,519 naturalism, which is really just classical metaphysics. Like if you read let's say, 365 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:42,519 like what classical metaphysicians wrote using Aristotle or Plato like in the last two 366 00:27:42,559 --> 00:27:49,839 centuries, like you'll see something that Olmos really well modern non reductionist naturalism. 367 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,960 And in the book I go through it carefully, but there's arguments really coming 368 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,079 from both like the top and the bottom, Like there's all kinds of arguments 369 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:02,519 that popped up in philosophy and cognitive science about the impossibility of reducing the mind 370 00:28:03,079 --> 00:28:07,279 to matter, and even like in general the idea that there are those emergent 371 00:28:07,319 --> 00:28:11,200 properties that you can't reduce to lower entities. So it shows up in chemistry, 372 00:28:11,279 --> 00:28:17,160 in biology, and the most obvious case is with consciousness. Like you 373 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:21,279 won't find many people now in philosophy of mind or kind oftive science who think 374 00:28:21,279 --> 00:28:26,079 that the mind is just a matter of particles or neurons. Let's say, 375 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,559 So there's this like problem coming from the top, but there are also problems 376 00:28:30,559 --> 00:28:37,039 coming from the bottom in physics, where like things always get if when you 377 00:28:37,079 --> 00:28:41,000 talk about quantum stuff because people like can defend easily New Age ideas about this. 378 00:28:41,119 --> 00:28:45,440 So I never talk about that stuff just because I know the problem that 379 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,440 it brings. Yeah, but there's a real problem for people who want to 380 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,720 be materialist there, because like if you're a materialist and you want to reduce 381 00:28:52,039 --> 00:28:55,799 things down to particles, like you have to be able to talk about those 382 00:28:55,799 --> 00:29:00,440 particles. But like you're gonna enter into like New Age territory pretty fast because 383 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,920 it doesn't look like what you see down there is stable particles. Like you 384 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,880 can see like fields and you can mathematize them, and there's interesting stuff to 385 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,240 say, but it's definitely not stable particles, Like at best, it's probability 386 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,279 fields that you can quantify. But as you do that, you're starting to 387 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:17,240 like go towards stuff that is closer and closer to the prime matter that the 388 00:29:17,559 --> 00:29:22,039 classical metaphysicians talked about. And another problem coming from physics is that, and 389 00:29:22,079 --> 00:29:29,720 that's something coming from physicalists themselves, is like there's no we don't know what 390 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,400 physical entities are. Like even by nature, physics doesn't tell you what its 391 00:29:33,559 --> 00:29:36,680 entities are. It tells you how they behave like it only gives you equations. 392 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,640 And even if physicians tell you like the mass and charge of the electronicists 393 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,200 this or that, all that means is that if you put such and such 394 00:29:45,279 --> 00:29:48,880 values in an equation, you'll get this in this behavior. But you actually 395 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,119 never know what physical entities are in physics. So like if you try to 396 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,880 reduce things down to particles that say, and you're a materialist, like you're 397 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,400 in big trouble because it doesn't look like what you have at the bottom or 398 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,559 stable particles, and you don't even know like what is their nature? You 399 00:30:02,599 --> 00:30:04,799 know how the waves behave, let's say, but you don't know why or 400 00:30:04,839 --> 00:30:08,880 what they are fundamentally, So there's like these big problems if you want to 401 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:15,079 be a modern naturalist of like there seems to be irreducible stuff at the top, 402 00:30:15,119 --> 00:30:19,359 and there also seem to be something like prime matter at the bottom. 403 00:30:19,839 --> 00:30:25,240 But like that's perfect if you just consider Aristotle and Plato and like the whole 404 00:30:25,279 --> 00:30:27,279 classical metaphysical tradition, because in that world view, what you have at the 405 00:30:27,279 --> 00:30:32,079 top or irreducible forms, and what you have at the bottom is prime matter, 406 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:37,119 and the world exists in a hierarchy between them. Like the classical metaphysicians 407 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,759 didn't quite use the words that John RIVICKI use uses for that, but I 408 00:30:41,759 --> 00:30:45,440 think it's great, Like is terminology of emanation top down and emergence bottom up. 409 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,880 I think that's a great way of explaining it. Like from potentially ty 410 00:30:49,039 --> 00:30:52,640 things emerge, but if you just add this bottom up emergence, like it 411 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,279 would be impossible to explain why things go air. So you also need this 412 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:02,480 top down emmanition of forms, these patterns that allow potential to coher into actual 413 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,480 entities. So that's the first part of the book, Like how you can 414 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:14,119 retrieve a classical wordview where you not only have this ontology of like matter and 415 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,880 form in a hierarchy, but you also have forms that have to do with 416 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,960 vices and virtues. Like you can recover what I said earlier about perception, 417 00:31:22,079 --> 00:31:26,720 the fact that okay, you learn to perceive objects, but also vices and 418 00:31:26,799 --> 00:31:30,119 virtues, so you recover a sense of good and evil. You're already starting 419 00:31:30,119 --> 00:31:34,200 to leave nihilism behind. You're not quite up to crestient yet and a full 420 00:31:34,279 --> 00:31:40,559 solution to the zombie problem, but at least like you're not a nihilistic materialist 421 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:45,279 anymore. And what I like about doing it this slowly is that there's nothing 422 00:31:45,559 --> 00:31:48,559 that the scientist loses at this stage, Like it's just positive, Like you 423 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:55,400 basically take the entire science that the scientists add, but you take his ontology 424 00:31:55,359 --> 00:31:57,119 called hierarchy, and you just make it a bit bigger so that what he 425 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:02,200 has makes more sense, but it doesn't have dropped anything. So that's the 426 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,240 first part of the book. And then the second part of the book. 427 00:32:05,279 --> 00:32:08,519 What I do is I try to go further by saying, Okay, Christianity 428 00:32:08,559 --> 00:32:16,079 is still the full solution, Like I can't justify Christianity fully using arguments coming 429 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:21,559 from naturalism or materialism. I think like if you could fully justify Christianity using 430 00:32:21,599 --> 00:32:23,920 something lower, you would actually be reducing Christianity to something lower. I think 431 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:28,880 the way that truth works in general is you have to rather like try to 432 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:34,039 seduce people into something higher. So what I try to do is a lot 433 00:32:34,119 --> 00:32:37,759 like what Lewis did in his book Miracles, but I do it for modern 434 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:43,480 naturalism now. I say, if you take the pattern of the incarnation now 435 00:32:43,599 --> 00:32:47,799 and you try to see the ontological hierarchy, you try to see the natural 436 00:32:47,839 --> 00:32:53,400 world in the light of the incarnation, the natural world actually makes more sense. 437 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,480 And it's the same way that any new theory is against even in science, 438 00:32:58,559 --> 00:33:02,720 Like the way that new for instance, advanced his theory of relativity was 439 00:33:02,759 --> 00:33:07,720 exactly just like he came up with new axioms that people thought were crazy. 440 00:33:07,759 --> 00:33:12,319 By the way, people thought Newton was proposing something occult because it was proposing 441 00:33:12,359 --> 00:33:15,839 a force that acted as a distance, whereas everyone back then was a mechanist, 442 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:21,200 like people thought that everything was just like basically build billiard balls and like 443 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,960 things pulling and pushing against one another. So people thought there was like something 444 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:30,319 like material explaining why we're attracted to the earth. But because Newton said it 445 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:31,920 was just a force acting at a distance, people thought he was insane, 446 00:33:32,279 --> 00:33:37,359 but because he was able to seduce them, they actually ended up agreeing with 447 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,440 him, because he said, okay, just I know it doesn't make sense 448 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:45,599 from your standpoint, but if you grant me what I'm proposing, then you're 449 00:33:45,599 --> 00:33:50,759 gonna have all that you have right now and more. So he basically ended 450 00:33:50,799 --> 00:33:52,599 up like seducing people and now we think nothing of it. Like of course 451 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:57,200 gravity of course for setecting at the distance, but I'm trying to do the 452 00:33:57,279 --> 00:34:00,000 same for the incarnation. I'm trying to say, Okay, the incarnation seems 453 00:34:00,039 --> 00:34:05,079 crazy, like it seems to be too much from a naturalistic standpoint, even 454 00:34:05,119 --> 00:34:09,079 a non reductive naturalist. But actually I think that if you take the incarnation, 455 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,400 you'll be able to get all of what you had before and more. 456 00:34:13,519 --> 00:34:17,000 Again, so I'm trying to saluce people into it. And we talked I'm 457 00:34:17,039 --> 00:34:21,280 making use of much of the stuff we discussed a few years ago related to 458 00:34:21,519 --> 00:34:28,000 miracles, especially a demiracle of the incarnation. I think like it just makes 459 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,360 so much sense of even the experience I had doing mathematics when I was a 460 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:36,559 student, because and it just blows my mind and anytime I think about it. 461 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,239 Let's say, if I try to prove the theorem, let's see, 462 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:45,519 even something basic like the pathagurrent theorem, I'm taking an abstract truth that exists 463 00:34:45,519 --> 00:34:49,760 outside of the space and time, like even if there was no physical universe, 464 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,599 the Pythagaurian theorem would still be true. And yet when I'm thinking about 465 00:34:53,599 --> 00:35:00,639 this, like somehow all of my neurons like are assembling to host this immaterial 466 00:35:00,679 --> 00:35:06,400 truth. So there's this crazy bridge that happens in human beings when we ponder 467 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:14,280 eternal truths. And I think the world makes more sense if it's made for 468 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,840 this, like if at its root like this, this bridge is just an 469 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:23,039 image of the bridge that happens in the incarnation, where the creator of the 470 00:35:23,159 --> 00:35:30,519 forms and matter comes and embeds himself into that great hierarchy. So that's just 471 00:35:30,519 --> 00:35:35,239 one example, but you can find so many, let's say, aspects of 472 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,639 nature, aspect of this ontology called hierarchy that you find in non rereactive naturalism 473 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:45,440 that are better explained if you take the incarnation as the key that ultimately I 474 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:52,239 think like people should be seduced into the story of the incarnation, and mythologically, 475 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,079 also, what this does is a solution to the zombie crisis. I 476 00:35:55,079 --> 00:35:59,880 opened the book with like a solution to I opened the book with the zombie 477 00:36:00,079 --> 00:36:06,920 it to explain our reductionistic materialistic standpoint. But as I also said earlier, 478 00:36:07,159 --> 00:36:12,039 ultimately is the Eucharist. It's self sacrifice that is the full solution to the 479 00:36:12,159 --> 00:36:16,440 zombie problem, and I want to invite people into that story. I want 480 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:21,320 to sluce people into the story of the Incarnation. I think I provide a 481 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:27,159 solution to the zombie problem. And also in metaphysics, I give people something 482 00:36:27,159 --> 00:36:31,519 that makes more sense than just non reductive naturalism. So that's the main trust 483 00:36:31,559 --> 00:36:37,800 of the book. Like I try to take people from materialistic reductionism to classical 484 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:43,679 metaphysics where they're not nihilists anymore, where good and evil exist, and then 485 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:45,400 I try to take them all the way into the story of the incarnation, 486 00:36:45,639 --> 00:36:52,119 where like all zombies are vanquished all the times they're very quid. I mean, 487 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:57,519 I think it's exciting because it seems like it's also just the right moment 488 00:36:57,599 --> 00:37:00,599 for that to come out, because we have all these people, all these 489 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:06,800 surprising moments like Ian HERSEYI Lee, who's says he's a Christian. She's literally 490 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,559 I've heard that she's there's gonna there's a debate organized between her and Dawkins, 491 00:37:10,079 --> 00:37:15,119 Like they're going to actually debate that all of a sudden. So the all 492 00:37:15,199 --> 00:37:19,360 of these things happening, you even have people like Brett Weinstein who are also 493 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,880 kind of moving in a direction saying, oh, this isn't work anymore, 494 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:24,360 this is in some ways, this is over, Like this world, this 495 00:37:24,519 --> 00:37:30,719 kind of nineteenth century thinking is done, and so it's a it's a wonderful 496 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:36,320 time. Joan Peterson's next book is called We Struggle with God, and he's 497 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,360 going through the Bible and he's doing a similar thing to what you're doing, 498 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,079 which is he says, says, by the time people finish reading this, 499 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,960 there'll just be no room for atheism anymore. So this is a perfect time 500 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,360 for all this to come together. So how do you see the course going 501 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:52,400 going with this? Like? How do you see the class coming together? 502 00:37:53,280 --> 00:38:00,320 Yeah? Good question. Basically, the more the more topics I decided to 503 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:04,880 keep for the course, I want the book to be more general public. 504 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,639 Let's say, so there's no need to go into some of the more niche 505 00:38:07,639 --> 00:38:13,480 symbolic world topics, Like I think it's important for people who are really interested 506 00:38:13,599 --> 00:38:21,000 to know, like what distinguishes the symbolic quality physics from the say perennialist metaphysics 507 00:38:21,119 --> 00:38:25,400 or universalist metaphysics. I think it's important to try to see like more precisely 508 00:38:25,639 --> 00:38:32,960 interesting stuff like how it is that the world exists in Christ, how it 509 00:38:34,039 --> 00:38:37,199 is that the world comes to exist through human consciousness. But I don't think 510 00:38:37,199 --> 00:38:42,159 it's necessary to go into those topics for a general audience that is just trying 511 00:38:42,199 --> 00:38:46,960 to get out of nihilism. So basically my approach was to take the course 512 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:52,760 as an opportunity to dive deeper into more advanced topics that I think will be 513 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:58,360 interested interesting to the symbolic world audience, people who have some background in symbolism. 514 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,960 But I also cover everything that is in the book. So if someone 515 00:39:02,039 --> 00:39:06,119 just wants to work through the arguments carefully, like in the setting, with 516 00:39:06,159 --> 00:39:07,920 other people and ask questions, I think the course is going to be a 517 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:13,119 great place to do so. And for people who want more, who want 518 00:39:13,159 --> 00:39:15,079 stuff that there's not going to be in the book, if people want to 519 00:39:15,119 --> 00:39:21,000 hear more about the more difficult aspects of symbolic world metaphysics, the course is 520 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,760 going to be a great place to delve into those topics. So this is 521 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:28,199 I mean, to me, it seems like like an exciting thing. And 522 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,079 I know because I can see that. I mean, I see it. 523 00:39:30,119 --> 00:39:35,800 I see that people have questions let's say that I don't necessarily have, and 524 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,159 so they have issues because they they're trying to connect kind of the symbolic thinking 525 00:39:39,199 --> 00:39:45,000 with other aspects that are not the ones that I either know or that are 526 00:39:45,119 --> 00:39:50,119 let's say, in the forefront of my mind. And so this is really 527 00:39:50,159 --> 00:39:52,960 important for people who have those kind of specific questions and people who are also 528 00:39:53,639 --> 00:39:59,119 you know, we all have we all have our strength and our capacity to 529 00:39:59,159 --> 00:40:02,320 do certain things. And I'm really grateful that you're there to also provide some 530 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:07,639 a little more technical specificity to how this works and trying to say, you 531 00:40:07,639 --> 00:40:12,039 know, try to work it out in a more detailed way. It's useful 532 00:40:12,079 --> 00:40:15,920 for everybody, especially people that are in the symbolic world kind of thinking and 533 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:20,719 kind of roaming around that way of seeing the world, but they also are 534 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,840 in university or then in grad school and they or they even some people like 535 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:30,679 they even have positions in universities, and you know they they're starting to think 536 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:32,800 that way, but they're struggling sometimes to justify to their peers and to be 537 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:37,280 able to explain it to people around them. So this is a very useful 538 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,199 thing you're doing. Yeah, I think now it's also a good time to 539 00:40:39,199 --> 00:40:44,159 do it because it's still close enough to me, Like I can tell that 540 00:40:45,639 --> 00:40:52,440 i'd see as as Christianity in the symbolic world, it becomes more second issue 541 00:40:52,559 --> 00:40:57,159 to me, Like it takes more taught to put myself back into the shoes 542 00:40:57,159 --> 00:41:00,639 of a reduction stick materialist. So I can feel that it could slip, 543 00:41:00,679 --> 00:41:02,159 Like in ten years, it would be much harder for me to write the 544 00:41:02,159 --> 00:41:06,920 book than it was now. And I think the same thing is going to 545 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:08,639 happen to a lot of people. Like ideally, if the book can save 546 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:13,000 time for people who are at the point where I was ten years ago, 547 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,039 that's great, and then they can forget about it and move on to just 548 00:41:15,119 --> 00:41:21,360 like sing the world symbolically. But yeah, as you said, I think 549 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:22,840 now is a good time to do it. If there's lots of people going 550 00:41:23,159 --> 00:41:25,719 through this transition if I can save them a lot of time. I think 551 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:30,079 this is great and it would be order to do. Like at some point, 552 00:41:30,199 --> 00:41:32,840 as more and more people see the world this way, like it's going 553 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:37,400 to be ordered to document the transition exactly how it works. Yeah, because 554 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,880 I mean our prediction, both my brother and I his prediction, and I 555 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:44,400 think Georg Peterson' told we had a similar insight when he wrote Maths, meaning 556 00:41:45,079 --> 00:41:47,079 he said, you know, in twenty five years, everybody's going to think 557 00:41:47,079 --> 00:41:51,480 this way and no one will know that they've changed the way they think. 558 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,079 And so I think that for those of us that are at the outset of 559 00:41:54,119 --> 00:41:58,760 this and that are kind of helping to instigate the change, it's useful for 560 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:00,679 us to be clear on what's going on on as we notice it kind of 561 00:42:00,679 --> 00:42:07,039 infuse the backgrounds of people's minds and change the world view slowly. So wonderful 562 00:42:07,039 --> 00:42:08,519 stuff. I'm I will be there in the class, folks. I'll be 563 00:42:08,559 --> 00:42:12,800 there not in every single episode, but I'll be there at the beginning, 564 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,480 maybe a few times during it, and I'll definitely be there at the at 565 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,119 the last class to kind of to wrap it all up. So I'm looking 566 00:42:19,159 --> 00:42:22,840 forward to seeing people there and to and to follow along and you know, 567 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:30,000 this year like how can I say this? Like everything now COVID after COVID 568 00:42:30,079 --> 00:42:31,760 ended, things are kind of starting to consolidate. I feel, you know, 569 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:35,440 we have the Symbolic World Press. Now we're going to start to publish 570 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,599 not just my works, but also works of people like John Fidipp that are 571 00:42:38,599 --> 00:42:43,360 in the Symbolic World and that are thinking about this and that have really worked 572 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,800 out some aspects, so both fiction and nonfiction. So it's a it's a 573 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:51,079 great time to to to jump in and to get involved. We did the 574 00:42:51,079 --> 00:42:54,320 Baywolf class. It was massively successful, and I think we'll see something similar 575 00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:59,320 with this class as well. So people sign up the class is what do 576 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,360 we say the first day? Was it going to be? We just had 577 00:43:01,599 --> 00:43:07,639 the twenty fourth Yeah, twenty fourth January twenty fourth January twenty fourth is the 578 00:43:07,679 --> 00:43:10,440 first class. Sign up. We'll put a link in the descriptions of course 579 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:15,840 you can. You can sign up and we'll have questions there. It is 580 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:20,400 a mix of lecture and interaction and we're looking forward to seeing you guys there. 581 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:22,800 Thanks. The book is going to be ready for the summit. Basically 582 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,679 that is the plan. The plan is to have a pre launch at the 583 00:43:25,679 --> 00:43:28,679 summit, so if you come to the summit, you'll be able to get 584 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,880 early copies of the book, and then after that we'll have a more official 585 00:43:34,519 --> 00:43:38,519 or official launch. So good stuff. Perfect, Thanks Nathan, Yeah, 586 00:43:38,599 --> 00:43:43,440 thanks, thanks you. I want to invite you all to the very first 587 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,840 Symbolic World Summit. Over three days, we will finally meet in real time, 588 00:43:47,079 --> 00:43:51,880 in real space, and everyone from this little corner of the Internet will 589 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,920 be there to explore the theme of reclaiming the cosmic image. Of course I 590 00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:59,400 will be speaking. There will also be Martin Shaw, who is an amazing 591 00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:04,119 mythographer, her father Stephen de Young of Lord of Spirit fame. There will 592 00:44:04,119 --> 00:44:08,400 be Richard Rowland from the Universal History series, Vesper Stamper, Nicholas Kotar, 593 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:13,440 and Neil de Gray that you've all seen on my channel here and there for 594 00:44:13,599 --> 00:44:17,559 entertainment, we have everyone's favorite apocalyptic band, the One and Only Dirt Poor 595 00:44:17,679 --> 00:44:22,280 Robbins. This event will be the chance of a lifetime to capture and embrace 596 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:27,559 our current moment, So join us from February twenty ninth to March second, 597 00:44:27,639 --> 00:44:32,599 twenty twenty four in Tarbinspins Florida. Visit the Symbolic World dot com slash summit 598 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:36,239 for more information, and I will see you there