WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:39.880 The the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 2 00:00:42.039 --> 00:01:32.599 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 3 00:01:36.359 --> 00:02:17.159 the the the mm hmm. I had to eat between streams, so oh 4 00:02:17.199 --> 00:02:24.599 all right, always down for a impromptu discussion, and I had to eat 5 00:02:24.599 --> 00:02:30.479 really quick between the last live stream in this one. So thank you just 6 00:02:30.520 --> 00:02:43.639 swallowing my giblets, swallowing my gravy filled with giblets. I'm not sure what 7 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:47.240 a giblet is, but that's what I asked Jamie to make, and being 8 00:02:47.240 --> 00:02:53.639 a good wife, she did it. She made me roast giblets, all 9 00:02:53.759 --> 00:03:01.360 right. So now sovereign brought people misunderstand I'm not debating sovereign bra So he 10 00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:07.599 raised the question of, hey, what is the issue between trying to see 11 00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:15.520 how he phrased it, Orthodox and Roman Catholics of ten fifty four, Why 12 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:21.680 did the Eastern Orthodox Church reject Rum's claim to people's supremacy at the Schism of 13 00:03:21.719 --> 00:03:25.560 ten fifty four? What was the reasoning of Constantinople. I am struggling to 14 00:03:25.639 --> 00:03:30.919 find a succinct answer to this, and then he says, maybe this isn't 15 00:03:30.919 --> 00:03:35.080 the right question. Maybe a better question is when did the Romancolic Church officially 16 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:42.360 reject the Catholic doctrine of papal supremacy. And then he says that we should 17 00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:46.000 bring in, you know, some other people. He's listen, he's popped 18 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:49.120 on here, So I'll add him as a speaker and then we'll open it 19 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:53.360 up here in a little bit. If you want to phrase your question, 20 00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:54.240 I don't want to put words in your mouth. If you want to, 21 00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:58.360 if you want to say anything, if not, you don't have to. 22 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:02.120 Hey, what's up, Jay? How are you good? Dude? How 23 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:06.599 are you? I'm chilling. I'm chilling. Thanks for having me and being 24 00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:11.439 willing to host this discussion. Sure, thanks for bringing me into the chat. 25 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:15.439 Yeah, absolutely, So I want to give a little bit of like 26 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:23.879 context on why I would ask this question before I explained the question and where 27 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:29.639 I was going with it, if that's okay. Yeah, So for anybody 28 00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:31.480 listening who's been following me for a while and anybody who doesn't know. So, 29 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:35.839 I'm technically a non denominational Protestant, have been for nine years now, 30 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:42.160 and I have a number of Orthodox friends and Catholic friends, and over the 31 00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:45.560 years, as I've been speaking about the faith with them. You know, 32 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:49.600 when you speak to someone who's deep into Orthodoxy or Catholicism, you just you 33 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:55.319 realize how much more there is to the faith than you find in Protestantism. 34 00:04:55.560 --> 00:04:59.959 You know, with the sacraments and all of the teachings of both churches, 35 00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:03.279 you know, Protestantant Protestantism kind of leaves a lot on the table, so 36 00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:08.360 to speak. And so I've been, you know, I've been curious about 37 00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:11.680 about both, and I've been kind of moving towards both, yearning for, 38 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:16.279 uh, the opportunity to get deeper into the faith. And I've spoken with 39 00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:24.439 both Catholics and orthodox And the thing about the thing about both Catholicism and Orthodoxy 40 00:05:24.600 --> 00:05:28.800 is that they make, each of them individually, makes specific claims to truth. 41 00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:34.879 And one of the reasons why I find Catholicism very interesting is because it's 42 00:05:34.920 --> 00:05:44.120 it's very Western in its thought right, Like the Catholics have articulated every single 43 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:49.519 imaginable aspect of the faith. And as someone who enjoys reason and logic and 44 00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:54.120 having things articulated, and as someone who has many questions about the faith, 45 00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:59.199 that aspect of things it's dealing to me. Now with that said, there's 46 00:05:59.240 --> 00:06:04.839 the question of the And this is something that that I've been you know, 47 00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:12.680 wrestling with because the papacy and the supremacy of the pope, there's a lot 48 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:16.439 to make sense out of there as someone who's new to kind of both Orthodoxy 49 00:06:16.519 --> 00:06:25.839 and Catholicism. And Catholics are are absolutely militant about protecting the pope, protecting 50 00:06:25.879 --> 00:06:29.360 his authority. I mean, it's you know, their religion essentially revolves around 51 00:06:29.360 --> 00:06:33.120 that, aside from obviously you know, the teachings of the Bible and so 52 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:38.199 on and so forth. Like the papacy is really what seems to differentiate it 53 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:42.879 in large part from Orthodoxy as far as I can tell, you know, 54 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:47.120 there's like Orthodoxy is like much more mystical than than Roman Catholicism and so on 55 00:06:47.199 --> 00:06:55.399 and so forth. But the papacy is like this central thing. And when 56 00:06:55.439 --> 00:06:59.519 I was looking at the history of the Great Schism, there's just there's so 57 00:06:59.639 --> 00:07:02.439 much to pull apart there. But it seems like, basically, to summarize 58 00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:08.199 it, it seems like the Rome was like, hey, we have supreme 59 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:13.319 authority, and the East was like, no, you don't, like we're 60 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:17.879 not going to respect your supreme authority. This is a gross oversimplification, but 61 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:21.480 it kind of seems like that's at the root. And when I read so 62 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:28.639 you shared Dictatus Pope on my thread and I read through that, and I'm 63 00:07:28.680 --> 00:07:34.040 like pretty blown away by this document. Speaking frankly, it just seems like 64 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:40.319 it seems like the East kind of disrespected the claimed authority of Rome, and 65 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:44.600 then Roman response was like, Hey, you know what, We're going to 66 00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:48.680 dictate that we have like complete and total authority over like all of Christendom and 67 00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:51.399 it's going to be concentrated in the hands of the pope, and anybody who 68 00:07:51.399 --> 00:07:56.279 disagrees with that is excommunicated. It kind of seems like it was like a 69 00:07:56.319 --> 00:07:59.240 massive power grab, and I'm just I'm trying to make sense out of all 70 00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:01.360 of this, Like, I don't know, I don't know if the Roman 71 00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:03.879 Catholic you know, claim is correct. It could be it could be false. 72 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:05.560 I don't know. I'm just trying to make sense out of all of 73 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:09.199 it, you know, Yeah, sure, I Mean, the first thing 74 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:13.480 I would say is that when it comes to the Schism ten fifty four, 75 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:20.120 there's not really one thing. There's sort of an evolving and sort of piling 76 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:24.160 up series of things that occur that lead to the schism. At that time, 77 00:08:24.199 --> 00:08:31.600 there was already disagreement over the addition of the Phillioquay to the creed in 78 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:33.720 the time of Saint In the time of Saint Photius in the eight hundreds, 79 00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:41.000 there was already discussion of this, and Photius in his letters complains that Frankish 80 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:46.519 missionaries had been sent under Charlemagne into territories that were Orthodox Bulgarian areas and so 81 00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:50.320 forth, and that they were foisting this creed with the addition of the Philioquay. 82 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:56.159 So already there was dispute, and this is what why there's two different 83 00:08:56.200 --> 00:09:00.480 councils between the East and the West, which are called the Eastern. It's 84 00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:07.519 the Eastern eighth Council and the Western eighth Council. Pub Leo the third Uhl 85 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:15.679 explicitly forbade altering the creed, So even as late as that that period it 86 00:09:15.799 --> 00:09:20.759 was not acceptable to change the creed. But it's actly let me see what 87 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:30.120 Leo the third dates were that may have been Contentinople eighth sevent Is that what 88 00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:35.320 you're thinking of Publio the third is he has pope from seven to ninety five 89 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:39.840 to eight sixteen. Yeah, so it's even earlier, but I mean he's 90 00:09:39.879 --> 00:09:45.519 famous for that position. Then I think the pope after him is the one 91 00:09:45.559 --> 00:09:50.120 that says no, actually it is okay to have the addition to the Creed. 92 00:09:50.200 --> 00:09:54.240 So basically, I mean it's not just about the the Creed, it's 93 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:58.799 also about other claims that are being made, which, as you correctly pointed 94 00:09:58.840 --> 00:10:03.759 out, by the time of Dictatus Pope, which is the Gregorian period, 95 00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:09.399 this is really where we start to see an alteration towards explicit temporal powers. 96 00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:11.639 So if I was to lay out one of the strongest arguments against this position, 97 00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:18.480 it's not really about whether the pope is first among equals or first in 98 00:10:18.519 --> 00:10:20.080 the church, or he'd be signed a lot of the councils. First, 99 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:24.360 the pope never called an ecumenical council, Okay, they're always called by the 100 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:28.360 emperors, first of all, So that for us is a sign that they're 101 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:33.200 not operating on the mindset of Vatican one. Vatican one places this is the 102 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:39.200 later council in the eighteen hundreds that places essentially all the authority in the Church 103 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:43.559 ultimately on the office of the Roman Sea. So he's declared to be at 104 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:48.799 Vatican one infallible he's not able to teach error. And by extension, I 105 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:52.720 would argue the assumption of Vatican One is that you can't have a pope that's 106 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:56.279 a heretic, so because it would mean that the Roman Sea can error, 107 00:10:56.320 --> 00:11:00.600 in the Roman Sea can defect, so you have the indefective ability of the 108 00:11:00.679 --> 00:11:03.159 Roman See, which is taught again later on, but we already have in 109 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:09.799 the first thousand years, particularly the case of Honorius the sixth Ecumenical Council, 110 00:11:09.879 --> 00:11:13.240 he's condemned as a heretic. So I'm just making the point here that the 111 00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:18.399 Church in the first thousand years, especially the sixth Econmenical Council, certainly didn't 112 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:24.320 have the Vatican One mindset because they saw a fit to excommunicate a pope for 113 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:28.879 actually teaching theological error. Has nothing to do with his private opinions, as 114 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:33.559 Roman Catholics say, because when the council excommunicates and they don't adjudicate between private 115 00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:37.440 opinions and public documents, they simply say that he taught error in one of 116 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:39.559 the letters that he wrote to someone else, and he taught the Monothelite error. 117 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:46.840 So this idea that the Vatican one definition, which is what is the 118 00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:52.960 burden of proof for the Roman Catholic You either have to say that this idea 119 00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:56.279 of Vatican One evolved over time, this is the idea of doctrinal development, 120 00:11:56.919 --> 00:12:01.360 or you argue, as Satis Cognitium of the thirteenth says, it was always 121 00:12:01.480 --> 00:12:07.480 the teaching of the Church from the earliest days, recognized by all. So 122 00:12:07.639 --> 00:12:11.120 it can't be both of those. Those are mutually exclusive positions. So most 123 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:15.960 Roman Catholic apologists and defenders end up having to kind of choose between these two 124 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:20.559 options, and I think either one they choose is kind of devastating, because 125 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:24.480 if it's a development doctrine, then we're kind of at the position of like 126 00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:31.480 Vatican two developments which go in the direction of theological liberalism, even perennialism or 127 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:35.559 universalism. If you look at Lumgentium sixteen or Nostre Attat, which are Vatican 128 00:12:35.559 --> 00:12:39.600 two documents, or the statement that the Jews are elder brothers in the faith, 129 00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:43.919 and that you know a lot of the statements that the Vatican has made 130 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:48.679 about the Jews post Vatican Two, I mean, these are all really retroactive 131 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:52.240 or revisionist positions based on the idea of evolution. Of doctrines. So in 132 00:12:52.279 --> 00:12:58.159 other words, there's nothing about evolution of doctrine that necessitates evolving quote unquote into 133 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:03.120 a conservative doctrine. It can, in fact involve evolve into something liberal. 134 00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:05.720 I would argue that the idea of doctrinal development itself is actually a kind of 135 00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:11.039 a liberal idea if you look at even though Cardinal Newman and people who proposed 136 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:15.320 this idea might have been somewhat conservative, there's no there's no idea, there's 137 00:13:15.320 --> 00:13:18.559 no reason why this necessarily would be a conservative development. But if you go 138 00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:22.559 with the director the argument of well, it was always the teaching of the 139 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:28.000 of the Church that the roman Sea was universal and its supremacy, its authority. 140 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:31.559 Uh, it was always indefectible. It was always an errant. And 141 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:35.720 you notice in one of the one of the propositions of the thought as Pope 142 00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:39.919 is that the roman See can be judged by none. I think that the 143 00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:41.679 roman Se has never aired and never will err into the end of the world. 144 00:13:43.480 --> 00:13:46.919 These are ideas of ineffectibility. So, but this is really impossible. 145 00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:52.840 Uh. If an ecumenical council, particularly the sixth Ecumenical Council, is condemning 146 00:13:52.879 --> 00:14:00.840 Popenoori's for heresy. Three later three later councils reaffirm that that excommunication Honorius for 147 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:03.919 heresy, it's not stated to be a private opinion. It's actually explicitly said 148 00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:09.799 to be to be heresy. So what we have in Dictatus Pope under this 149 00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:15.399 Grigorian reform period is really the pope becoming a geopolitical power. And yeah, 150 00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:18.960 that's what it to me. Yeah, yeah, And now a Roman calvic 151 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:24.759 might say, well, maybe dictas Poppy isn't like totally dogmatic or it wasn't 152 00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:28.399 really like totally authoritative. This can be something that we can throw away. 153 00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:33.399 The problem is that multiple Roman Catholic scholars nowadays admit that this period of the 154 00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:39.000 Gregorian Reforms of the eleventh century, this would be like Kongar Francis de Vornik 155 00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:43.960 again recognized Roman calthoc historians and scholars, this is the revolution period. It's 156 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:52.879 called the papal revolution because the Church shifts away from sonodal ecumenical council approach to 157 00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:58.559 a monarchical papal approach, meaning now that for example, the pope will decide 158 00:14:58.600 --> 00:15:01.279 every bishop in the world. Okay, prior to this, the pope did 159 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:05.039 not determine who would be every bishop in the world. This is a total 160 00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:09.519 ecclesial renovation. And we know that this is the direction that the Church went, 161 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:15.840 because even if you were to throw out Dictatus Pope, you need to 162 00:15:15.879 --> 00:15:22.159 look no further than unem Sanctum of Boniface the Eighth, which actually says not 163 00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:24.879 only that you have to believe in the Roman Sea and be in commune with 164 00:15:24.919 --> 00:15:28.080 it to be saved, you actually have to believe in the doctrine of the 165 00:15:28.120 --> 00:15:33.120 temporal supremacy of the Roman bishop to be saved. Now where in the first 166 00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:37.080 thousand years of the Church was there this idea that to be saved you had 167 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:43.080 to submit to the pope as a geopolitical world power. Nowhere? Why was 168 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:46.919 it there? It was backed up via forgeries. The donation of Constantine most 169 00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:54.399 famously backed up this idea of the necessity of salvation via the via the temporal 170 00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:58.159 supremacy of the pope. Now Vatican wanaccu mean Vatican two. The Pope took 171 00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:02.440 off its crippled triple crown, and the triple crown that he used to wear 172 00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:07.200 signified his authority in every realm, including heaven and earth. So the taking 173 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:11.879 off of the papal tr The Triple Crown signified that at Vatican Two they would 174 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:19.240 no longer accept or try to promote this doctrine of temporal geopolitical supremacy. So 175 00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:25.840 what was necessary for salvation at the time of Boniface the eighth and thirteen oh 176 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:29.840 two nowadays isn't even necessary for salvation. In fact, post Vatican two they 177 00:16:29.879 --> 00:16:34.519 actually say that countries should decatholicize, there should be a de christianization of the 178 00:16:34.600 --> 00:16:38.559 state post Vatican two. This is in some of the Vatican two documents. 179 00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:44.559 So that's a clear change in doctrine in terms of em what's necessary for salvation. 180 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:45.840 Now, there's many other things that can be said, but I think 181 00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:52.200 that it's not just a question of the philioqua. It's actually centering on this 182 00:16:52.320 --> 00:17:02.200 shift away from the notion of a church that's synodal, that's concilier, into 183 00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:06.880 the direction of the papal autocracy. And last thing I'll say is that the 184 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:11.119 recent Vatican this is papally approved, by the way, for you Roman Catholics 185 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:17.240 who are going to hand wave this the Alexandria Document of June twenty twenty three, 186 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:26.319 this is the council that discusses issues of relating to the Eastern churches and 187 00:17:26.359 --> 00:17:30.480 to the Orthodox. This is a part two to the CH eighty document from 188 00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:36.680 some years earlier. The CH eighty document ends by saying that they admit that 189 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:41.119 the Roman Sea did not have universal jurisdiction and premiacy in the first thousand years. 190 00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:45.720 That's the most important element of that document. It's at the very bottom. 191 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:48.319 Can you can you repeat that one more time? Sure's the G eighty 192 00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:52.599 document. Let me pull it up. It's c h I E T I. 193 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:02.480 If you look at the very last proposition, I'll scroll down to the 194 00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:07.960 bottom of it. It says proposition nineteen. Here. Over the centuries, 195 00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:11.880 many appeals were made to the Bishop of Rome from the East in disciplinary matters. 196 00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:15.880 Attempts were made at the Council or the Synod of Sartica. This is 197 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:22.839 what's called the Canons of Sartica. Sometimes Roman Catholics try to argue that this 198 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:26.920 teaches papal supremacy. Of course it doesn't. If you read the actual canons, 199 00:18:26.119 --> 00:18:32.440 it's about it's about re establishing trials. It's not appealing to the Roman 200 00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:37.720 bishop. As the final word, this admits that it says that it establishes 201 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:41.000 rules for such a procedure. Sartica was received at the Council of Trollo. 202 00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:45.599 Trello is a council that's accepted by the Orthodox and is accepted of the Seven 203 00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:51.240 the Communical Council. Roman Catholics don't accept Trolo. The Canons of Sartica determined 204 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:53.200 that a bishop who had been condemned could appeal to Rome, and that later, 205 00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:57.079 if he deemed appropriate, he might order a retrial. Okay, so 206 00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:02.839 it's not a de facto Rome says the final word, It's just a retrial. 207 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:06.319 It was to be conducted by bishops of the province and the neighboring the 208 00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:11.759 bishop's own Sea. Appeals regarding disciplinary matters were also made to Constantinople, so 209 00:19:11.799 --> 00:19:15.960 you could appeal not just to Rome, but also to Constantinople. So Sartica 210 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:18.880 is not a defense of Vatican I stuff like they want, then, it 211 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:22.680 says. Such appeals to major seeds were always treated in a sonoda way. 212 00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:29.039 Appeals to the Bishop of Rome expressed the communion of the church, but the 213 00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:33.799 Bishop of Rome did not exercise canonical authority over the churches of the East. 214 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:41.359 So here you have a papally approved admission she eighty document twenty sixteen, and 215 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:48.440 then they reconvened this Eastern papally approved synod meeting in twenty twenty three last year, 216 00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:52.839 and it's called the Alexandria Document. And what's amazing about this is that 217 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:59.839 the Alexandria Document goes even further to admit about ninety percent of the criticisms that 218 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:03.599 Orthodox make of the Roman Catholic Church. And I'll end up I'll end with 219 00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:07.680 this part. That does not mean that we're moving towards reunion. What this 220 00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:14.319 means is that the papacy, out of geopolitical and ecumenist motivations, is admitting 221 00:20:14.519 --> 00:20:18.720 that many of the criticisms of the Orthodox are actually correct. It even admits 222 00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:22.720 that the false decretals, the false donation of Constantine. The very things I 223 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:27.319 mentioned are mentioned within the third paragraph as basically forgeries that were used to prop 224 00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:32.680 up things like the temporal supremacy of the pope. The Roman See can be 225 00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:37.119 judged by none that's actually based on a forgery, as well, that famous 226 00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:40.599 statement that still I think in Kenon Law and the Romancolic Church anyway, So 227 00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:45.599 all of these things are really admitted in the Alexandria document, and what it 228 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:48.039 means is that Vatican one is not true, and a Vatican one is not 229 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:56.079 true in the extent of its explicit definitions of what the universal ancient historic jurisdiction 230 00:20:56.160 --> 00:21:00.960 of the Roman sea is. It's in defectibility, it's infallibility, supreme teaching 231 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:06.400 office, and so forth. Then Roman Catholicism is false because it's a system 232 00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:11.880 that's based on a consistent dogmatic statement over the centuries. So you can't have 233 00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:15.119 ecumenical councils. But whether it's Vatican two if you're a triad, or whether 234 00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:19.400 it's Vatican one if you're a novus auto Catholic, you gotta submit to all 235 00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:22.920 of these. You can't have your cake and eat it too. And if 236 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:32.240 one dogmatic pronouncement contradicts, the whole system falls apart. So that document that 237 00:21:32.279 --> 00:21:37.160 you just read from am I correct in understanding that it was conceding that the 238 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:41.240 pope did not have supremacy for a certain number of the first centuries, of 239 00:21:41.319 --> 00:21:45.599 the first thousand years or whatever it was. Yeah, the first document, 240 00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:49.599 the Chi eighty document, is admitting that there was not universal supremacy of the 241 00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:55.920 Roman bishop in the first millennium. And then the second document is admitting that 242 00:21:56.720 --> 00:22:00.880 all of this stuff was really propped up around things like forgeries, the false 243 00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:04.119 Decreidls, the donation of Constantine. There's actually many more of these, Simokian 244 00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:07.799 forgeries, the Galatian decredles, on and on. There's a whole bunch of 245 00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:11.200 these that were used for centuries to prop up which now the Vatican admits, 246 00:22:11.240 --> 00:22:15.000 as do most scholars, that these are forgeries. So they're not legitimate documents. 247 00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:18.200 They're not the only things that were used, but they were very they 248 00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:26.160 were used very heavily for many centuries to prop this up. That's a pretty 249 00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:32.680 big deal. If I could just of note on that on that topic specifically, 250 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:37.160 the donation of Constantine was what was referenced Bipopolio the ninth pat the schism. 251 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:41.319 That's literally the document in his papabowl when he excommunicates content and ople that's 252 00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:45.839 the document he references to justify it. And this is a document that is 253 00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:51.359 now considered a forgery. So it's it's it's not just a general attatation to 254 00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:59.720 these forgeries, like it's literally the document they used justify the schism. So 255 00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:03.240 you know, as I look at this from a bird's eye view. Obviously 256 00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:11.359 that the claim from both Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox is that, you know, 257 00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:15.039 everyone says we are the one true Church, We're the Early Church, 258 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:18.079 right, we trace our roots back to the early Church. And obviously both 259 00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:23.279 churches can to some degree make that claim. The question is whether or not. 260 00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:30.759 The question is which one can fully make the claim. And my personal 261 00:23:30.839 --> 00:23:34.400 leaning the more and more I learn is towards Orthodox being able to make that 262 00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:38.559 claim. But I obviously haven't heard the full picture from both sides yet. 263 00:23:38.599 --> 00:23:42.880 I mean, there's there's a ton to the history here, and I want 264 00:23:45.319 --> 00:23:48.920 I'm sorry, I just wanted to add something on that. If you after 265 00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:56.599 you're finished, go ahead. Yeah. So the question of the papacy again, 266 00:23:57.039 --> 00:24:03.720 it really seems like it's primacy came into effect like during the eleventh century 267 00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:06.839 and then after the eleventh century, and it sounds like prior to that, 268 00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:14.079 Jay, from what you're describing of the history of the church, major decisions 269 00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:18.079 within the church were not determined by a pope, but were instead determined by 270 00:24:18.279 --> 00:24:22.559 synodal councils. Is that correct? Well, yeah, I mean that the 271 00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:30.119 church's approach is concilier, that's what the Vatican Document is admitting, and it's 272 00:24:30.200 --> 00:24:33.519 basically saying, you know, when it comes to the Vatican One idea of 273 00:24:33.559 --> 00:24:37.680 the papacy, that's something that it's something that evolved pretty clearly. So they're 274 00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:42.200 going with the Newman coldinal Newman route of the evolution or the development of doctrine 275 00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:47.119 versus the idea of Satis cognitium, which is Leo the thirteenth cent cyclical, 276 00:24:47.160 --> 00:24:52.240 that it was always there as the you know, ecclesiological structure and modeled the 277 00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:56.160 church to be you know, Vatican one papal. So so yeah, I 278 00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:00.640 mean, I mean that's that's what Catholics today say. They say Peter was 279 00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:03.680 the first pope, right, and there was you know, papal succession all 280 00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:07.000 the way down from Peter to you know, the current pope Francis. Well, 281 00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:11.000 well, let me let me add a little nuance here, because as 282 00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:15.640 Orthodox we agree that in we believe in the same doctrine of appostolic succession. 283 00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:21.640 Where we differ is not so much whether Peter has a lineage or a succession 284 00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:25.680 at Rome. We think he does. But in the Orthodox mindset, if 285 00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:27.920 you read aaron As for example, in book three, excuse me book four, 286 00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:32.799 I think of against Heresies. He explains that the greatness of Rome is 287 00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:37.119 precisely because of the presence of Peter and Paul. So it's nothing specific to 288 00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:41.000 Peter, it's Peter and Paul. That's the ancient tradition, even in Rome 289 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:45.079 to this day. If you go to the latter in Basilica, which is 290 00:25:45.079 --> 00:25:48.880 the ancient Basilica of the Roman Church when it was Orthodox, you'll see up 291 00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:56.359 at the very front the two sort of equal uh statues of Peter and Paul 292 00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:59.920 are. They're situated very equal, so they're they're facing each other at the 293 00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:03.240 very front of the church. And I think that speaks to the ancient tradition 294 00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:07.759 of Rome being the see of Peter and Paul. Even all the way up 295 00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:11.319 into Saint Gregory the Great when you read his letters, he says that the 296 00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:17.160 Petrine Sea is Rome, Antioch and Alexandria. So even at that time there 297 00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:21.920 was the idea that you know, Peter established his succession not just at Rome, 298 00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:23.759 but also at Antioch and in the in the Orthodox Church, that's where 299 00:26:23.799 --> 00:26:29.599 we get the idea of Antiochian Orthodoxy. They derive their descent also from Peter. 300 00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:33.799 And so when Rome is presented with that, Well, they say, 301 00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:36.640 well, but Peter was martyred in Rome. You see, so there's a 302 00:26:36.680 --> 00:26:41.119 special significance to Rome, which then court, you know, somehow grants this 303 00:26:41.319 --> 00:26:48.440 special terrorism of infallibility to the descent in Rome. And yeah, and it's 304 00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:53.319 not just infallibility, it's also indefectibility all of these other you know, attenuating 305 00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:57.720 doctrines as pro Vatican One. But again, church history doesn't bear that out. 306 00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:03.200 And if you want an easier, quicker route, I would say the 307 00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:06.480 easiest way to see what the mindset of the Church was in the first thousand 308 00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:10.559 years, to see if it was papal or if it was concilier, is 309 00:27:10.599 --> 00:27:15.000 to look at what's called the canons of the councils. So each ecumenical council 310 00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:18.720 establishes what are called canons, which are basically just church law. And these 311 00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:26.640 ecumenical canons at every single ecumenical council do not align with the Vatican One mindset 312 00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:32.319 of the Pope being the supreme, universal, infallible, final word on everything 313 00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:40.519 doctrinal. That's why every council has canons that conflict with papal supremacy and assume 314 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:45.079 conciliarism and For example, we have canons that talk about the only thing that's 315 00:27:45.079 --> 00:27:51.279 needed for a bishop is to have two bishops and a metropolitan to ordain a 316 00:27:51.319 --> 00:27:56.799 bishop. There's no mention of the Roman See being necessary for the ordination of 317 00:27:56.799 --> 00:28:00.440 bishops. Throughout the world, we have statements about the limitations of jurisdiction, 318 00:28:02.119 --> 00:28:07.720 and there's no explications in these canons that the Roman Sea is exempted from the 319 00:28:07.799 --> 00:28:12.880 limitations of jurisdictions. These are consistent canonical statements and teachings, and so then 320 00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:15.720 what Rome has to do is say, well, yeah, but you know, 321 00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:18.920 the Pope basically just can throw out all the canons that he wants. 322 00:28:18.920 --> 00:28:23.480 He's above those. But the councils don't treat the Roman Sea as if they're 323 00:28:23.559 --> 00:28:27.440 not subject to the canons. The attitude of every council is that the Roman 324 00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:32.039 Sea, just like every other sea, is subject to the canons. And 325 00:28:32.079 --> 00:28:36.359 that's why it's so great to have the Vatican now admitting this nowadays, and 326 00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:37.720 that's why the Trads have to just say, well, I don't care what 327 00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:44.279 the Vatican says anymore on a tried cat and I handwave whatever Francis and the 328 00:28:44.359 --> 00:28:48.559 Vatican post Vatican two structure does and says unless I like it and decide that 329 00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:56.599 it's trad So was Tictatus pope canonized with unam sanctum basically, well, I'm 330 00:28:56.599 --> 00:29:02.680 just saying that, so that the point is that at that time there's no 331 00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:06.759 clear It's not like there was a clear expert because that Dictata's poppy was included 332 00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:10.519 in the Pope's Register of the year of ten seventy five, so he certainly 333 00:29:10.759 --> 00:29:15.240 expected it to be accepted. That is Pope Gregory the seventh right when it 334 00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:18.480 says it was included in the Pope's register. What does that mean exactly? 335 00:29:18.680 --> 00:29:22.680 That just means that he saw it as official, his official teaching, and 336 00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:26.240 what he expected. Now, whether he had in his mind that everybody would 337 00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:33.000 do that is you could perhaps debate that, but it doesn't really matter about 338 00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:37.039 whether that, like each of these propositions, is quote dogmatic, because the 339 00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:41.880 main point is that what this is really about is about his temporal supremacy, 340 00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:45.279 and you can go to you know, unum sanctum, which explicitly does make 341 00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:52.319 the temporal supremacy necessary for salvation. So, in other words, unum sanctum 342 00:29:52.359 --> 00:29:57.880 really is the dogmatic statement that shows that the attitude of Dictatus Pope is expected 343 00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:03.519 to be accepted even if every single proposition isn't necessarily part of when I'm saying, 344 00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:08.839 does that make sense? It's expected to be accepted for your salvation. 345 00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:15.720 What's expected to be accepted for salvation is that you have to believe not just 346 00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:18.039 in the supremacy of the Roman bishop and you have to be in communion with 347 00:30:18.119 --> 00:30:22.119 him, you also have to believe in the temporal power of the pope and 348 00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:26.799 he dictated as dictated in I believe so now. But even if you think 349 00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:32.519 that it's not dogmatic, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, I'm 350 00:30:32.519 --> 00:30:37.440 saying if I think I'm looking at this and okay, So for those that 351 00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:41.480 are listening, Jay, is there any possibility you could pin your tweet where 352 00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:47.880 you linked Diktatus Pope on my thread to the jumbo tron. It is important 353 00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:49.880 for people to read because when I read through this, my mind was pretty 354 00:30:49.880 --> 00:30:52.880 blood right. Well, but the reason I'm talking about when I'm sanctum is 355 00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:56.759 that I already know all the Roman Catholic responses. I used to be Roman 356 00:30:56.799 --> 00:31:00.599 Catholic for many years, So they're just gonna say, oh, well, 357 00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:03.240 we don't have to accept that because it's not quote ex cathedral. Now, 358 00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:07.519 this is an whole other problem of epistemology, which is that there's no wait 359 00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:10.759 wait, wait, wait, wait, before you go on that, I 360 00:31:10.759 --> 00:31:12.039 want to hear that. But before you go on that, we have a 361 00:31:12.039 --> 00:31:15.240 lot of listeners that are like hearing us talk about this, and this is 362 00:31:15.319 --> 00:31:19.279 like this is like high in the sky church history for like the lay people, 363 00:31:19.319 --> 00:31:22.039 and they don't they need to know what this document says. I want 364 00:31:22.039 --> 00:31:26.400 them to see it, like I'm reading it right now. Number nine, 365 00:31:26.599 --> 00:31:32.680 on Dictatus Pope says the Pope alone, that of the Pope alone, all 366 00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:37.680 princes shall kiss the feet. Number ten says that his name alone shall be 367 00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:41.279 spoken in the churches. This is the only name in the world. It 368 00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:47.319 is permitted to the pope to depose emperors. Number nineteen says he the pope 369 00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:51.799 may be judged by No. One. Number twenty two says that the Roman 370 00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:56.759 Church has never aired, nor will it air to all eternity the Scripture bearing 371 00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:02.359 witness. I mean twenty two obviously so central Catholic teaching teaching. But nine 372 00:32:02.440 --> 00:32:07.839 through twelve like this is like like it's like I guess I'm asking if you 373 00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:10.759 don't. Is it Catholic teaching that if you don't believe in these things according 374 00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:14.599 to Unum sanctum, if you don't believe in these things, like you can't 375 00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:17.200 attain salvation. Is that? Is that? Basically? So here's what I'm 376 00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:23.119 saying. Yes, basically, so Lunum sanctum is affirming the basic principle that 377 00:32:23.559 --> 00:32:28.319 you have to believe in the temporal supremacy of the pope to be saved. 378 00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:32.839 So it doesn't really matter about every single one of the propositions because a Roman 379 00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:37.119 Catholic's gonna say, well, these aren't es cathedral to follow these, that's 380 00:32:37.160 --> 00:32:38.400 the first thing they're gonna say. And I can say, well, I 381 00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:42.880 can grant you that, because it doesn't really matter because you do have to 382 00:32:42.920 --> 00:32:46.039 accept Dunum sanctum as dogma. And it basically makes the point that you must 383 00:32:46.119 --> 00:32:50.200 believe in the temporal supremacy of the Roman bishop to be saved. And if 384 00:32:50.200 --> 00:32:53.920 the temporal supremacy the Roman bishop to be saved is dogma, then all the 385 00:32:53.960 --> 00:32:58.480 things in Unum sanctam follow, I mean, in dictatas pape follow. Then 386 00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:00.680 he can say, you know, his word is law in terms of the 387 00:33:00.680 --> 00:33:05.839 temporal's fear, he can depose and call armies, because you understand, after 388 00:33:05.880 --> 00:33:12.519 this, the pope starts having a standing army, right, yeah, which 389 00:33:12.599 --> 00:33:15.039 I mean honestly, like, I don't have much of a problem with that's 390 00:33:15.079 --> 00:33:16.200 pretty dope when you've got to well, no, but it's not on. 391 00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:21.920 Well, but here's the thing though, Well, here's the thing though. 392 00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:25.759 The canons of the earlier councils, like Calconon, for example, forbid any 393 00:33:25.839 --> 00:33:32.240 cleric from holding civil office. There's a clear teaching of the distinction between temporal 394 00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:37.319 power and spiritual power in Orthodoxy, which is the teaching of the first seven 395 00:33:37.400 --> 00:33:42.640 councils. This is the meaning of the double Byzantine, the double headed eagle, 396 00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:45.880 the Byzantine eagle. Right, it's two heads, not one head. 397 00:33:45.079 --> 00:33:51.480 It's two heads, one symbolizing the temporal power and one symbolizing the spiritual power. 398 00:33:52.119 --> 00:33:57.559 Now, you can't blend the two because the canons have already taught and 399 00:33:57.599 --> 00:34:01.400 had already been accepted universally that it cleric cannot be a civil ruler and he 400 00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:07.559 can't be a warrior. So it's actually a violation of Church law to mix 401 00:34:07.639 --> 00:34:15.119 these two realms. Now, now let me say also on this point, 402 00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:22.159 let me let me find the tweet and i'll I'll put the tightest pop. 403 00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:23.960 Now we have a lot of people who want to jump on. Is that 404 00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:29.000 okay with you? Do you? Yeah? I have. I have two 405 00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:30.360 other questions for you. Sure, go ahead. Now, So there's a 406 00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:35.159 there's a young man who says I'm scared and running, which I've already told 407 00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:37.920 you, bro, We're gonna go to you, dude, Like, just 408 00:34:38.039 --> 00:34:44.119 chill the first question. So the Great Schism, as far as I understand, 409 00:34:44.760 --> 00:34:49.320 the disagreement was over unleavened bread and the filioquay. Is that correct? 410 00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:52.519 Now? Those are just again like partial elements, Like the schism ends up 411 00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:59.800 being over the office of the of the Roman see whether he has universal jurisdiction, 412 00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:06.760 whether he can unilaterally act outside of his jurisdiction to excommunicate or to control 413 00:35:06.920 --> 00:35:09.639 the liturgy elsewhere or whatever right, in other words, to change the creed? 414 00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:13.880 Does he have that ability? Okay? So that's part of it. 415 00:35:14.519 --> 00:35:19.840 There's also theological divergences that are occurring between a Latin view of how we understand 416 00:35:19.880 --> 00:35:23.840 the Trinity and Grace versus the Orthodox conception of how we understand the Trinity and 417 00:35:23.880 --> 00:35:30.159 grace that was already in the dispute going on in terms of Augustinian theology versus 418 00:35:30.760 --> 00:35:35.880 the theology the Cappadocians and theosis. Okay, so that's part of it, 419 00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:40.679 as well as the issue of the philioquay, whether there's a double procession or 420 00:35:40.679 --> 00:35:45.679 whether it's a single procession from the Father through the Son. All of these 421 00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:47.400 things are contributing. And then there's other issues that you mentioned as well, 422 00:35:47.480 --> 00:35:53.000 such as the bread issue, even things like communing event infants, which the 423 00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:59.039 Orthodox Church has maintained the ancient practice that infants received communion. The Roman Church 424 00:35:59.119 --> 00:36:02.679 changed that Chee Church a band married priest which it used to have. The 425 00:36:02.719 --> 00:36:07.960 Council Trollo teaches that you should have married priests. So there's a whole litany 426 00:36:07.079 --> 00:36:12.519 of things that end up being the source of the schism. Okay, gotcha, 427 00:36:12.559 --> 00:36:15.239 thank you for that. Yeah. And the second question, so, 428 00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:22.280 as far as I understand it, nostre at Tate was created in order to 429 00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:28.320 like heal relations between the Catholics and the Jews. And I saw a documented 430 00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:32.320 a few years ago out of the Catholic Church basically saying that the Catholic Church 431 00:36:32.360 --> 00:36:40.440 would not authorize officially any mission outreach to Jews to convert them to Christianity, 432 00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:45.239 which is like crazy to me, because the Bible says that if Jews don't 433 00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:46.920 believe, then they will be cut off from the tree. And you know, 434 00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:51.800 they already are broken off because they've they've rejected the Messiah. But if 435 00:36:52.079 --> 00:36:55.559 they don't believe, you know, they're damned. And when I look at 436 00:36:55.559 --> 00:37:02.960 the Catholic Church basically officially stating no, we will not authorize official outreach to 437 00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:07.119 Jews to convert them to Christianity, I look at that and I'm just like, 438 00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:10.719 what's going on here? Like it seems like some sort of I don't 439 00:37:10.760 --> 00:37:14.679 know, I just get like weird vibes, Like it seems like a subversion 440 00:37:14.719 --> 00:37:17.159 from like within the church potentially. I don't know, what do you make 441 00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:22.039 of that? I know that's absolutely correct. In fact, the Vatican has 442 00:37:22.039 --> 00:37:28.360 been putting out documents, not just lumingentium and notes for Tate, but they've 443 00:37:28.360 --> 00:37:32.239 been continuing to put out documents. There was a particularly scandalous one that was 444 00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:37.079 approved some years back about the Church's relationship to the Jews, even so called 445 00:37:37.079 --> 00:37:43.039 trad Pope Benedict in his book many religions. One covenant says that, oh, 446 00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:45.119 Jews have a valid reading of the Old Testament, and you know, 447 00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:51.000 there's not a necessity to necessarily convert our elder brothers, is I think something 448 00:37:51.079 --> 00:37:55.199 John Paul the Second said so. No, this is a very notorious error. 449 00:37:55.360 --> 00:38:00.199 And that's precisely because Vatican two is not just about Jews. Vatican who 450 00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:05.440 also says that Muslims and Christians worship the same God. It says that Hindus 451 00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:09.239 also call upon God in love and adoration. And this is essentially, you 452 00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:14.599 know, perennialism. It's the idea that all the religions ultimately are sort of 453 00:38:14.679 --> 00:38:19.079 masks of God. And this is the basis for Francis creating the multi faith 454 00:38:19.159 --> 00:38:23.239 center. Francis approved this is based on the document that he signed with the 455 00:38:23.239 --> 00:38:29.559 Grande mom that we can have a Muslim, Jewish, Christian multi faith center 456 00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:31.960 in Abu Dhabi. Okay, well, that's just apostasy because we don't worship 457 00:38:31.960 --> 00:38:36.000 the same God. If you don't believe in the Triad, then you're not 458 00:38:36.039 --> 00:38:40.360 worshiping the God of Abraham. Because it's basic christology, basic orthodox theology that 459 00:38:40.519 --> 00:38:45.840 Jesus is who's there with Abraham. It's not a Unitarian, generic Muslim god 460 00:38:46.159 --> 00:38:51.159 or a Jewish God. It's father, son and spirit. It's Yahweh, 461 00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:55.239 his angel and his spirit. That's the Old Testament revelation to Moses. Remember 462 00:38:55.360 --> 00:39:00.320 the quote from Pascal, the God of Abraham than Isaac, not the gone 463 00:39:00.320 --> 00:39:07.960 of the philosopher exactly. He's actually correct. Okay, dope, Yeah, 464 00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:10.679 thanks thanks for answering that, Hey, that they just got it Beloved. 465 00:39:13.519 --> 00:39:15.280 One last thing, do you think that they just got it wrong, Jay, 466 00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:20.679 or do you think that it was like intentionally subversive? Were there other 467 00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:24.119 elements that were, you know, interested in pushing this stuff like I mean 468 00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:29.599 no, I mean that there were There's actually a long history of uh, 469 00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:34.519 you know, there's geopolitical powers that play into ecumenism. Even there's even Roman 470 00:39:34.559 --> 00:39:37.239 Catholic authors that have written books. David Wimhoff has a great book. He's 471 00:39:37.239 --> 00:39:44.159 a Catholic lawyer called John Courtney Murray Time Life Magazine. American Proposition, which 472 00:39:44.199 --> 00:39:49.440 is about the influence of America. It's deep state on Vatican two and the 473 00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:52.920 doctrinal warfare program headed up by CEEDE. Jackson's a famous Roman Catholic book. 474 00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:58.039 He's been interviewed on countless Roman Catholic podcast. So this is not some orthodox 475 00:39:58.119 --> 00:40:00.639 conspiracy person. U. Yeah, this is you know that there is a 476 00:40:00.679 --> 00:40:07.239 geopolitical power element to uh to ecumenism, but I think that really it's it's 477 00:40:07.559 --> 00:40:13.639 also an outworking of a long train of theological mistakes. So you know, 478 00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:20.119 the the idea of absolute divine simplicity, which is the Augustinian presupposition for how 479 00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:24.599 we go about understanding the Trinity. That really leads to a different model of 480 00:40:24.599 --> 00:40:29.559 the Trinity that's adopted in the Latin West in the Middle Ages, and it's 481 00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:35.079 not the model of the Triad that's very normative and universal in the East, 482 00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:39.840 which is the Cappadocian teaching at the Second Ecumenical Council. So basically, if 483 00:40:39.840 --> 00:40:44.119 you read Photius, we would say that Saint Photius and mystagogy the Holy Spirit, 484 00:40:44.519 --> 00:40:50.639 the divergence is really about the triad and that's what conditions the ecclesiological papal 485 00:40:50.920 --> 00:40:53.400 divergence. And if you you know, I mentioned that Schirard book Church Papacy 486 00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:59.760 Schism, he actually makes the argument that the papal thing is actually outworking of 487 00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:04.679 that the logical mistakes. Gotcha, thank you for that. Have you have 488 00:41:04.760 --> 00:41:08.119 you produced content on Operation Gladio. Oh yeah, yeah, I've got probably 489 00:41:09.559 --> 00:41:14.800 five six seven podcasts on that legit. Yeah, I figured you probably did. 490 00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:19.320 Sweet. Yeah, thanks for answering my questions. Father, Sorry for 491 00:41:20.119 --> 00:41:22.880 interrupting you if you tell me, hey, no problem. I wanted to 492 00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:25.280 let you get your questions, and they were excellent questions. And uh, 493 00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:30.519 I'm actually just really impressed at the right kind of questions you're asking at the 494 00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:36.079 level that you are, So keep up the great work. I mean, 495 00:41:36.599 --> 00:41:42.239 that's your miles ahead of where I was. Appreciate that, man. Yeah, 496 00:41:42.280 --> 00:41:45.199 honestly, I mean when I speak to people that are educated on all 497 00:41:45.239 --> 00:41:50.960 of this, I feel extremely retarded. So I appreciate the vote of encouragement 498 00:41:51.800 --> 00:41:53.920 if I could. On that topic. It's not as complicated as people make 499 00:41:53.960 --> 00:41:58.639 it out to be, Like even like the skis him itself, Like just 500 00:41:58.639 --> 00:42:01.079 from a comment stands standpoint, like four of the five patriarchs were on the 501 00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:05.400 Eastern Orthodox side, and it was only the one patriarch to pope that was 502 00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:07.760 on the Western side. Yeah, and I wanted to add to that that 503 00:42:07.880 --> 00:42:09.440 way. Yeah, the church, like in the first millennium, the church 504 00:42:09.559 --> 00:42:14.599 was built on the five patriarchs, one of which was was was Rome. 505 00:42:14.840 --> 00:42:20.239 And even in the Roman Catholic Ecumenical Council A sixty nine, they admit that 506 00:42:20.280 --> 00:42:24.039 the heads plural of the church are the five patriarchs, and four of those 507 00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:30.000 five simultaneously we're on the side of the Eastern Orthodox ath schism. Rome was 508 00:42:30.039 --> 00:42:34.400 alone. So that's that's not like an insignificant detail, and it's kind of 509 00:42:34.400 --> 00:42:37.760 like a common sense detail that a lot of people kind of overlook. Right, 510 00:42:37.800 --> 00:42:40.079 Yeah, that's exactly the point that I wanted to make. So one 511 00:42:40.119 --> 00:42:45.400 thing that both Jane noticed in It's just the kind of common problem that any 512 00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:50.280 of us could be infected with is that we take our own paradigm and then 513 00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:55.239 you read that in to everything else. And so with the Roman Catholics, 514 00:42:55.320 --> 00:43:01.840 they have a very centralized all the power centralized in one office. They don't 515 00:43:01.840 --> 00:43:09.480 have this kind of concept of decentralization what we call an orthodoxy autocephally and nodality, 516 00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:14.480 and this kind of caused some problems for them kind of thinking through these 517 00:43:14.519 --> 00:43:21.239 issues. And let's so let's go to what Luigi is actually saying about the 518 00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:27.199 split in ten fifty four. They tend to conceive it of it is and 519 00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:31.960 frame the issue as look, it's this one church against this other church, 520 00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:39.880 like two people, and then it confuses people inquiring into it which one's right. 521 00:43:39.960 --> 00:43:45.039 They're boastitting they're right, But as Luigi correctly pointed out, this is 522 00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:52.639 because they failed to understand the kind of notion of decentralization and autosephalacy. Here 523 00:43:52.679 --> 00:44:02.119 you have five patriarchal sees and when they operate jurisdiction, they're independent, so 524 00:44:02.599 --> 00:44:07.400 it means a lot that. Well, wait, it's not one person against 525 00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:12.320 one person, or one institution against one another institution. And who's right? 526 00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:20.599 You have four of those people who are all should I say people, jurisdicians 527 00:44:20.599 --> 00:44:23.119 and sees who are independent. Right, they're not under one another. They're 528 00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:28.800 economous entities. Let me add to real quick that and a lot of Roman 529 00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:32.639 Catholics don't even know this. They think that Orthodoxy just made up autocephalist churches. 530 00:44:34.119 --> 00:44:37.239 It's actually the Council of Ephesus, that is the first statement in four 531 00:44:37.239 --> 00:44:46.679 point thirty one of autocephally granted to the Church of Cyprus. So emphasis ratifies 532 00:44:46.719 --> 00:44:51.639 the notion of Cyprus being autocephalus. So it's actually out of the econmenical councils 533 00:44:51.800 --> 00:44:54.239 enough, something that Orthodoxy invented on their own, and pentarchy as well, 534 00:44:54.280 --> 00:44:59.480 comes out of the canonical structure of the economical councils, not something the Orthodoxy 535 00:44:59.519 --> 00:45:02.840 invented. Yeah, so really you have a forgance. One if I could 536 00:45:02.840 --> 00:45:08.719 give an analogy, imagine you have like five friends growing up, and they're 537 00:45:08.719 --> 00:45:15.400 telling a story about One of the friends tells a story about what happened growing 538 00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:21.840 up, and the other friend says, well, wait a minute, that's 539 00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:23.320 that's not true. That didn't happen. Oh yeah, yeah, no, 540 00:45:23.400 --> 00:45:27.679 that's the way it happened. So it's a he said, she said sort 541 00:45:27.719 --> 00:45:31.079 of thing. And then what you get is, oh, wait, you 542 00:45:31.119 --> 00:45:35.880 get the other three friends come in and say, no, that's that's not 543 00:45:35.960 --> 00:45:39.400 how it happened. In fact, you're relying on a document that the forgery 544 00:45:40.679 --> 00:45:45.559 to perpetuate your lie. That's more kind of an analogy of what you're what's 545 00:45:45.599 --> 00:45:50.960 going on. It's it's that you've got four friends that are saying that's not 546 00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:54.000 how the story went at all, that's not correct. In fact, you're 547 00:45:54.119 --> 00:46:00.519 using a forged, false document to even argue that. I think that's a 548 00:46:00.519 --> 00:46:05.119 good analogy and good way to kind of think about it. All of which, 549 00:46:05.119 --> 00:46:08.800 the four friends haven't been talking and been separate, so they him conspired 550 00:46:08.920 --> 00:46:16.760 against It's just they were accounted their their history together and they found you have 551 00:46:16.840 --> 00:46:22.039 four against one. I think that would be a strong case that you would 552 00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:27.000 be at the very least suspicious of the one friend I e. Rome and 553 00:46:27.039 --> 00:46:32.199 what their claims are. Let me add eve Evan, he's really eager to 554 00:46:32.440 --> 00:46:38.159 argue. The Roman Catholic set of a consciosposition is the timeshare presentation over? 555 00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:42.320 Yeah, it's really funny. What's that? What's your argument? You like 556 00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:45.000 that? So first Jay, I just want to let a ready know that 557 00:46:45.159 --> 00:46:52.320 Jay go, he's got to go personal stuff. Yeah, you're going to 558 00:46:52.360 --> 00:46:54.079 go personal stuff. And then say, I'm running. Do you have an 559 00:46:54.159 --> 00:47:00.199 argument? They have any Do you have an actual argument? I just waited. 560 00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:07.599 Now you guys are gonna stop, I have Do you have anything to 561 00:47:07.679 --> 00:47:09.440 say? And yeah, you're gonna let me be a sentence? I just 562 00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:13.800 waited. Okay, but it's not about me. So you're going to make 563 00:47:13.840 --> 00:47:15.599 an argument or not. Oh I'm gonna make an argument. I'll already know 564 00:47:15.639 --> 00:47:19.719 that. You refuse to debate the Diamond Brothers and you're running because I think 565 00:47:19.719 --> 00:47:22.320 they're a crazy cold and that's not an argument. No, it's because you 566 00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:23.199 know you're going to lose. So I just wanted to get that on the 567 00:47:23.199 --> 00:47:27.719 table. So where's your argument? Hold on? Jack? So he doesn't 568 00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:31.440 have I'm letting everybody know that you refuse to debate the top Yeah, I 569 00:47:31.480 --> 00:47:37.000 don't debate crazy cults, correct, because there's no point in that. Man. 570 00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:42.800 Amen, nobody takes sad seriously, bro. So he waited all that 571 00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:47.480 time to say that he didn't have an actual argument. So now can the 572 00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:52.360 energy. By the way, I just want to let the audience kind it's 573 00:47:52.360 --> 00:47:58.159 it's just anger at me, right, So it's like anger and it's uh 574 00:47:58.559 --> 00:48:05.960 yeah, classic said behavior. Yeah, just take it easy, come in 575 00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:09.760 and be respectful. That's oh yeah, I've got I've got about fifteen minutes. 576 00:48:09.840 --> 00:48:14.400 I'm curious if there's anybody in your audience who's Roman Catholic who wants to 577 00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:17.800 make a counter argument in favor of the pope's authority being legitimate. All right, 578 00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:21.760 So if you've got Roman Catholic arguments, you guys want to bring it 579 00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:23.920 up. I do see a lot of people in the quay in the queue, 580 00:48:23.960 --> 00:48:28.599 as the Brits say, feel free to request to speak, raise your 581 00:48:28.599 --> 00:48:30.480 hand because I see a lot of people, so I don't know who's who 582 00:48:30.519 --> 00:48:37.480 is and isn't Roman Catholic, So just sort of do the raise your hand 583 00:48:37.559 --> 00:48:44.960 thing. Yeah, over waiting. I just want to point out sovereigny as 584 00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:49.039 you get into this kind of like these discussions. One of the common arguments 585 00:48:49.039 --> 00:48:54.119 that Jay pointed out is the developments of the papacy argument. And it's actually 586 00:48:54.119 --> 00:49:00.880 self refuting because Pastor Returnos Inbatic in one yeah, specifically says that it's been 587 00:49:00.920 --> 00:49:04.920 known since the beginning of the Christian religion, like in the same paragraph where 588 00:49:04.960 --> 00:49:07.639 it's talking about the infallibility of the pope. So it's self refusing to say 589 00:49:07.639 --> 00:49:13.719 it's developed. Says what has been known since the beginning the infallibility of of 590 00:49:13.800 --> 00:49:17.400 the of the of the pope. If you read the paragraph says it too. 591 00:49:17.599 --> 00:49:22.599 They both do yeah yeah, So so like Vatican want itself like refutes 592 00:49:22.639 --> 00:49:27.880 itself if you argue it developed, because it specifically says it's been known since 593 00:49:27.880 --> 00:49:31.360 the beginning of the Christian religion. What do they what do they base that 594 00:49:31.440 --> 00:49:35.360 on? That it's been known since the beginning of the Christian Rulin. They're 595 00:49:35.400 --> 00:49:39.800 going to go to the verses in Matthew or is it yes, Vatican want 596 00:49:39.800 --> 00:49:44.559 itself is gonna is gonna reference Matthew sixteen. That's exactly what that's what it 597 00:49:44.599 --> 00:49:50.559 references to justify it. And then ironically it says it's because the keys were 598 00:49:50.599 --> 00:49:52.679 given to Peter. But if you go to latter in four, which is 599 00:49:52.719 --> 00:49:58.480 also ecumenical for Roman Catholics, it specifically says the keys were given to all 600 00:49:58.519 --> 00:50:02.599 the apostles and older successors. So that's a contradiction between two economenical councils. 601 00:50:05.320 --> 00:50:07.760 Yeah, and they also will rely on a lot of sort of quote minds 602 00:50:07.760 --> 00:50:12.639 where it's like things taken out of context, things that don't have any context, 603 00:50:12.760 --> 00:50:14.960 and then when you go and learn what the context is, it's like 604 00:50:14.960 --> 00:50:20.159 and that doesn't actually teach people infallibility. So roma spoken cases close this kind 605 00:50:20.159 --> 00:50:22.320 of stuff, and then you go see the context and it's nothing to do 606 00:50:22.400 --> 00:50:27.000 with what they think it says. So all the Roman Catholics are left after 607 00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:30.079 that one guy. So I thought we would have somebody who raised your hand. 608 00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:35.639 If you want to come on to argue the Roman Catholic position. Yeah, 609 00:50:35.639 --> 00:50:38.039 I would. I would genuinely like to hear a rebuttal from the Roman 610 00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:42.920 Catholics. So we got like four or five hundred people here on Twitter, 611 00:50:43.559 --> 00:50:45.400 or we did earlier. Surely there's a Roman Catholic here. Come on, 612 00:50:46.960 --> 00:50:51.880 use the little raise your hand, think of a jig. If you want 613 00:50:51.880 --> 00:51:07.840 to hop on, I'll give you the mic. Sean. There was a 614 00:51:07.880 --> 00:51:12.159 guy earlier who was saying he wanted to come on now. He left best 615 00:51:12.199 --> 00:51:15.800 Buy? Are you one best ball? Here we go. This guy says 616 00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:27.360 he's Romany. Noah, just unmute. Noah, you're on No I just 617 00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:31.559 got to unmute, dude. I'm sorry, folks. I hope everybody's doing 618 00:51:31.639 --> 00:51:39.199 well tonight. Before I give you know, any rebuttals or anything about the 619 00:51:39.239 --> 00:51:44.599 Pulp, I just want to say that, you know, we complicate everything, 620 00:51:45.599 --> 00:51:52.320 and we divide and conquer everything, and we're always looking for who's right 621 00:51:52.880 --> 00:52:00.519 and who's wrong. So it is it is. But like that sounds awesome 622 00:52:00.679 --> 00:52:07.559 based me. You know, the whole purpose is to have a personal relationship 623 00:52:07.880 --> 00:52:15.400 with God. That's where it will be game. Well, are you all 624 00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:20.519 right? We're gonna move on. So we specifically requested h a person who 625 00:52:20.519 --> 00:52:27.639 wants to argue the Romancalloy position, not evangelical testimony. That sounds pretty base 626 00:52:27.760 --> 00:52:30.920 to me. Conquered divide, find truth, and that what Jesus said. 627 00:52:30.960 --> 00:52:36.760 I can't and I came to divide. So and we prayed it for our 628 00:52:36.760 --> 00:52:39.559 bishops to rightly divide the word of the truth. Like yeah, amen, 629 00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:50.599 King, did you want to speak? You got to unmute king? Can 630 00:52:50.639 --> 00:52:58.039 you hear me? Uh? So, I'm a Roman Catholic and I have 631 00:52:58.119 --> 00:53:02.639 one question about like Matthew sixteen, because I mean, I'm kind of a 632 00:53:02.679 --> 00:53:07.760 set of a contest Catholic. So because I can't really you know, be 633 00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:17.440 consistent with the you know, Vatican two and past. Let me see, 634 00:53:17.880 --> 00:53:22.960 well, as a Roman Catholic who is a set of a contest, how 635 00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:28.000 are you ever going to have a pope again? If Francis has basically chosen 636 00:53:28.719 --> 00:53:32.079 all the cardinals to be a bunch of liberals that you think are no longer 637 00:53:32.119 --> 00:53:35.840 a Catholic as well, how are you going to ever get a pope again? 638 00:53:37.760 --> 00:53:40.159 I mean, honestly, I don't think that's the case. Like I 639 00:53:40.199 --> 00:53:44.800 think it would be that either this is in times or we would have to 640 00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:52.679 rely on Orthodoxy to do that to you know, to come to the Catholic 641 00:53:52.760 --> 00:53:55.000 faith. I think, so you're going to rely on the Orthodox Church to 642 00:53:55.079 --> 00:54:00.360 come back to Rome to save the Roman Catholic Church. I mean, I 643 00:54:00.400 --> 00:54:04.960 don't expect that, but I think that would be the only real solution. 644 00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:07.360 Okay, Well that's not going to happen, so, yeah, I know. 645 00:54:08.679 --> 00:54:14.360 Have you read Etsy Have you read the document Etsy Multa? Uh? 646 00:54:14.440 --> 00:54:16.880 Yeah, Okay, do you not think that that, even though that's written 647 00:54:16.920 --> 00:54:22.000 against the old Catholics, does the principle in this not refute set of accuntism? 648 00:54:24.079 --> 00:54:29.400 I think that, Like, I don't think it refutes it entirely, 649 00:54:29.559 --> 00:54:31.599 but I can see how it can be used as an argument against it. 650 00:54:32.159 --> 00:54:38.960 Okay, well, how how does the promise that we have, like in 651 00:54:39.719 --> 00:54:44.840 Vatican One, that there would be successors in the Office of Peter to the 652 00:54:44.960 --> 00:54:49.159 end of the world. How is the fundamental components of the Roman Church? 653 00:54:49.559 --> 00:54:54.840 How is it not lost if it loses its fundamental constituent component of unity the 654 00:54:54.920 --> 00:55:07.280 Roman see, I mean, it would be it would be, you know, 655 00:55:07.440 --> 00:55:12.519 be lost in the way that visibly, But I don't think it would 656 00:55:12.519 --> 00:55:15.400 be lost invisibly. Like now, now you're a Protestant, okay, because 657 00:55:15.440 --> 00:55:21.599 the Vatican One does not say that there's an invisible church, an ethereal of 658 00:55:22.119 --> 00:55:25.239 platonic form of the papacy. The only papacy that you can be in communion 659 00:55:25.280 --> 00:55:30.599 with is the visible one over in Rome. You understand, it says that 660 00:55:30.719 --> 00:55:34.599 visible unity exists till the end of the world. So you can't switch over 661 00:55:34.639 --> 00:55:38.880 to a Protestant invisible church model. Well, I think that it would still 662 00:55:38.920 --> 00:55:44.920 be visible in the way that they exist in the Church history visible visible. 663 00:55:45.119 --> 00:55:49.079 No, what's visible is the office of unity, the Roman Sea. So 664 00:55:49.119 --> 00:55:53.039 you would have to say that the Roman Sea continues. Maybe all the other 665 00:55:53.079 --> 00:55:57.480 bishops in the world fail. Right, if you wanted to preserve the Vatican 666 00:55:57.480 --> 00:56:01.079 One position, you can't have the Roman Sea disappear and still have the visible 667 00:56:01.159 --> 00:56:05.480 unity of the Romancolic Church. There is no other Roman Cacolic Church in the 668 00:56:05.480 --> 00:56:13.239 one in Rome. Right. That's why said of a contism doesn't work. 669 00:56:13.519 --> 00:56:21.639 It's an it's a dead end position. You can't don't you see how it 670 00:56:21.639 --> 00:56:27.480 could be possible that this could be like similar to the Old Testament? No, 671 00:56:27.599 --> 00:56:30.679 I mean, the whole point was we're not in the Old Testament. 672 00:56:30.719 --> 00:56:36.440 Bro Pentecost is the promise of the Holy Spirit to the church to lead and 673 00:56:36.440 --> 00:56:38.440 guide her into all truth, as Jesus says in the Gospel of John. 674 00:56:38.800 --> 00:56:42.880 So it's not gonna leave church. The church if the Roman see is the 675 00:56:42.920 --> 00:56:45.480 Romans see, it's Holy Spirit is not gonna leave it, and we're gonna 676 00:56:45.519 --> 00:56:52.639 revert to a pre Pentecost time in the Old Testament. Okay, So where 677 00:56:52.639 --> 00:56:55.719 would you say I should look into? Like, if I want to look 678 00:56:55.760 --> 00:56:59.599 into Orthodoxy, I would say read, uh, First of all, read 679 00:56:59.679 --> 00:57:04.239 John on Trello's book Set of a Concious Delusion. Because we helped John convert 680 00:57:04.280 --> 00:57:07.960 to Orthodoxy out instead of a contism. I myself had a period where I 681 00:57:07.960 --> 00:57:10.360 thought, say it was correct, So I would say read that. Read 682 00:57:10.400 --> 00:57:15.599 Michael Welton's book Two Paths and John Pontrello's book Set of a Contius Delusion. 683 00:57:15.599 --> 00:57:20.960 Those are two places to start. Any other Roman Catholics who want to come 684 00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:25.199 on, raise your hand, best ball? Did you want to hop on 685 00:57:25.280 --> 00:57:30.159 as Roman Catholic? I got another question for you to j When you get 686 00:57:30.159 --> 00:57:36.519 a moment, go ahead, best ball? All right, Hey, thanks 687 00:57:36.519 --> 00:57:39.320 for letting me talk, guys, I but love for my Orthodox brothers. 688 00:57:43.280 --> 00:57:49.400 So you guys were saying the path sy essentially was something that came to be 689 00:57:49.519 --> 00:57:52.760 in Vatican one, and in Vatican one they were claiming it was something that 690 00:57:52.840 --> 00:57:59.719 was I was saying it evolved over many, many centuries, but that the 691 00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:05.599 aims of Vatican one are a historical and retroactively read back into history. The 692 00:58:06.480 --> 00:58:10.880 papacy is a see of Peter that existed and eventually, in our view, 693 00:58:12.239 --> 00:58:16.239 sort of evolved away from Orthodoxy. So it wasn't invented at Vatican One. 694 00:58:16.960 --> 00:58:23.440 I just want to read something specifically from the Council of Ephesus in four thirty 695 00:58:23.519 --> 00:58:30.840 one a d. So this would have been before the schism, you know, 696 00:58:30.119 --> 00:58:34.039 something that would have what we know what we know the quote minds uh, 697 00:58:34.159 --> 00:58:37.559 Luigi has addressed these. Luigi, do you want to address the quote. 698 00:58:37.599 --> 00:58:43.480 Yeah, he's going to read you're talking about post Salestine. Yeah, 699 00:58:43.480 --> 00:58:47.159 it's referencing. It's it's the Legate Philip talking about post Salestine's letter. Yeah, 700 00:58:47.199 --> 00:58:50.679 it's just the same. It's gonna be the same language talking about how 701 00:58:50.719 --> 00:58:53.000 the pope, you know, uh, will never fail. This language is 702 00:58:53.000 --> 00:58:58.880 applied to the Emperor it's applied to all the patriarchs in various councils. So 703 00:58:59.079 --> 00:59:02.039 what Roman Catholics do is they'll literally quote mine. They'll just pull this this 704 00:59:02.079 --> 00:59:07.199 one quote that's referencing the Pope specifically, and then they'll ignore all the same 705 00:59:07.280 --> 00:59:10.840 quotes that reference the Emperor and the other patriarchs. For example, in Constantinople 706 00:59:10.880 --> 00:59:19.159 III, Matthew sixteen is applied to the emperor, So it's like the case 707 00:59:19.159 --> 00:59:22.400 of hell will never prevail against the emperor. So obviously these quotes are honorific 708 00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:28.960 and nothing more than that, and so it's disingenuous to apply them to the 709 00:59:29.000 --> 00:59:31.039 Pope and not apply them literally to the emperor or to the other patriot. 710 00:59:31.119 --> 00:59:35.679 The other thing, too, is that the Roman Catholic Church now admits, 711 00:59:36.480 --> 00:59:42.280 via the papally approved synods that Chid and Alexandria are the documents produced by these 712 00:59:42.519 --> 00:59:50.760 these working groups or whatever, that these these periods are not teaching Vatican One. 713 00:59:51.159 --> 00:59:53.960 So what's on the what the burden of proof is the Vatican One view 714 00:59:54.159 --> 01:00:00.960 not? Did Rome sign councils first? Was it called the first ce? 715 01:00:01.280 --> 01:00:06.679 Was this language used at times? The question is can you show the Vatican 716 01:00:06.800 --> 01:00:13.559 One claims in the first millennium and Roman myths. No, So can I 717 01:00:13.639 --> 01:00:16.880 just read this excerpt? I mean I wasn't here for earlier in this discussion 718 01:00:17.159 --> 01:00:23.760 instead of you know, just saying I was gonna we knew what you were 719 01:00:23.760 --> 01:00:28.119 going to read, so and you admitted it. Yeah, would it be 720 01:00:28.159 --> 01:00:30.800 okay if I were to read it? So if people in the chat who 721 01:00:30.840 --> 01:00:35.000 haven't actually heard it before, I can hear it directly? All right? 722 01:00:35.239 --> 01:00:40.280 So direct quote Council of Ephesus for thirty one a d. There is no 723 01:00:40.400 --> 01:00:45.400 doubt, And in fact, it has been known in all ages that the 724 01:00:45.440 --> 01:00:51.119 Holy and most Blessed Peter, Prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of 725 01:00:51.159 --> 01:00:55.760 the faith and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the Kingdom 726 01:00:55.920 --> 01:01:00.559 from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, 727 01:01:02.599 --> 01:01:09.360 and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins who down 728 01:01:09.480 --> 01:01:15.880 even to today and forever, both lives and judges. And his successors. 729 01:01:15.440 --> 01:01:24.760 Do you think that Rome and Alexandria and Antioch are his successors? Yeah, 730 01:01:24.840 --> 01:01:30.880 all bishops you know within the Apostolic line are successors. But there's something no, 731 01:01:30.960 --> 01:01:34.719 no, no, no, The patrine seas are who according to Pope 732 01:01:34.760 --> 01:01:44.320 Saint Gregory. What are the three patrin seas according to Pope Saint Gregory. 733 01:01:45.320 --> 01:01:46.920 Yeah, I'm not going to comment on that. I'm not well versed enough. 734 01:01:47.039 --> 01:01:51.079 Okay, well i'll tell you. He says that Rome, Alexandria, 735 01:01:51.119 --> 01:01:54.519 and Antioch are the three patrine seas. So by your argument, that would 736 01:01:54.599 --> 01:02:00.159 mean that all three of those fall under that blessing. It would not, 737 01:02:00.400 --> 01:02:05.519 because it's something very unique is happening. In this excerpt, it says that 738 01:02:05.599 --> 01:02:09.880 the Holy and Most Blessed Peter, Prince and head of the Apostles. Yeah, 739 01:02:09.880 --> 01:02:14.159 but you don't even understand you you're not understanding the argument that I'm making. 740 01:02:14.360 --> 01:02:17.039 Do you understand that all three understand you're making that they have equal authority? 741 01:02:17.119 --> 01:02:22.719 No? No, you missed the point. Those are three patrine seas, 742 01:02:22.920 --> 01:02:27.880 they're all from Peter. So you just shot yourself on the foot. 743 01:02:29.039 --> 01:02:31.000 Yeah. No, I get what you're saying. I understand it. Well, 744 01:02:31.039 --> 01:02:35.119 your reply was not based on understanding. It was based on me thinking 745 01:02:35.159 --> 01:02:37.599 that they're saying that it's all the bishops. Now there's three patrine seas, 746 01:02:37.960 --> 01:02:45.719 so does that apply to them? Well, this excerp specifically says and head 747 01:02:45.760 --> 01:02:50.960 of the apostles. So is there that has nothing to do with that has 748 01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:54.960 nothing to do with his successors, who are all patrins say for the other 749 01:02:55.039 --> 01:03:00.679 patrine seas specifically head of the apostles. Well, Constantinople eight sixty nine, 750 01:03:00.679 --> 01:03:05.360 which is acumenical for you, calls all five patriarchs the heads of the church. 751 01:03:05.679 --> 01:03:09.159 So then and then Constentin Noble three calls the Emperor the head. So 752 01:03:09.400 --> 01:03:13.960 headship is not exclusively applied to the Pope, it's applied to the Emperor. 753 01:03:13.960 --> 01:03:16.480 It's applied to all five patriarchs. Yep. So this is why your quote 754 01:03:16.519 --> 01:03:22.280 minds don't work. I appreciate you, guys, let me share. I'll 755 01:03:22.320 --> 01:03:27.400 let the audience decide for themselves. I appreciate it. And this is the 756 01:03:27.920 --> 01:03:36.280 general point that I think, Jay, you're pointing out that everything you said 757 01:03:36.320 --> 01:03:45.400 about Peter being the head therefore applies to Antioch and Alexandria and not just Rome. 758 01:03:46.280 --> 01:03:52.679 So for some reason, I know the reason the Roman Catholics and I 759 01:03:52.719 --> 01:03:58.440 think that patrin cy only applies to Rome and all the kerry picking verses that 760 01:03:58.519 --> 01:04:02.119 they do, well, that's just Roman papal supremacy. Well, if you 761 01:04:02.159 --> 01:04:06.079 read the letter here from Pope saying Gregor the Gray his epistle, he actually 762 01:04:06.159 --> 01:04:12.559 uses the patrin key language. He cites Matthew sixteen of the Keys, and 763 01:04:12.599 --> 01:04:16.679 he says, for he himself, Peter exalted the sea, which he dained 764 01:04:17.360 --> 01:04:20.920 to be in the rest of his life. He himself adorned the sea that 765 01:04:20.960 --> 01:04:26.039 he sent his disciple Alexandria, and he himself is thinking that this was some 766 01:04:26.280 --> 01:04:30.239 special thing in Rome. That's why they don't have a good argument. They 767 01:04:30.280 --> 01:04:33.159 just say, well, it's only in Rome because Peter died there, and 768 01:04:33.159 --> 01:04:38.199 they come up with these weird arguments to try to say that it's only Rome 769 01:04:38.559 --> 01:04:43.159 because they immediately realize that Peter isn't just the Bishop of Rome. He also 770 01:04:43.199 --> 01:04:46.639 has lineage in Alexandria and Antioch. But then they have to cut off Alexandri 771 01:04:46.679 --> 01:04:50.639 and Antioch from falling under this patrine privilege. So why is it only Rome. 772 01:04:50.920 --> 01:04:56.280 Oh, it's a tradition. So then they fall back on a silent 773 01:04:56.440 --> 01:05:00.599 tradition. Yeah. Ironically, I actually just remember to in that same council, 774 01:05:00.639 --> 01:05:03.599 and this is on page three to eight of the Prices Acts of Emphasis. 775 01:05:04.119 --> 01:05:09.920 It calls the Emperor the divine and inviolable head. In that same council 776 01:05:09.960 --> 01:05:13.320 that he just referenced. Yeah, it calls the emperor the divine and inviable 777 01:05:13.360 --> 01:05:16.800 head. So like this idea of headship in the very council he pointed to 778 01:05:17.760 --> 01:05:21.840 reference his someone other than the pope. Yeah, that's why selective usage of 779 01:05:21.880 --> 01:05:26.159 the language. For example, in Besil's letters, which we did a whole 780 01:05:26.199 --> 01:05:30.599 podcast on Basil's letters, when he's having problems in the East, he appeals 781 01:05:30.639 --> 01:05:35.840 to Rome. Rome doesn't help out, and he calls the Bishop of Antioch 782 01:05:35.960 --> 01:05:40.079 the head of the body. So he's calling the Bishop of Antioch out of 783 01:05:40.079 --> 01:05:44.079 the church. He appeals to Rome, Rome doesn't give any help. Basil 784 01:05:44.119 --> 01:05:48.440 then says Rome is absolutely worthless. Oh so much for the first see so 785 01:05:48.559 --> 01:05:53.000 much for it solving all these problems. And it's not even called the head. 786 01:05:53.320 --> 01:05:57.400 He calls Antioch the head. So this is because this language is used 787 01:05:57.440 --> 01:06:01.480 amongst the church fathers throughout as a as a sign and as an honorific thing. 788 01:06:01.719 --> 01:06:06.519 As Luigi said, it doesn't always have a theological baggage all a Vatican 789 01:06:06.599 --> 01:06:12.480 one like Roman Catholics wanted to have. They read that into it. I 790 01:06:12.480 --> 01:06:18.519 also want to bring up something too about the indefectibility. Interesting enough, last 791 01:06:18.559 --> 01:06:26.719 Sunday was the Gospel of Mark And do you guys just remember what the what 792 01:06:26.760 --> 01:06:32.760 the gospel was about the mirror bearing women running to them. Yeah, and 793 01:06:32.800 --> 01:06:42.280 the Angel says, uh, go get the disciples. Oh and Peter, 794 01:06:44.840 --> 01:06:49.159 remember so talking about defectibility, Peter himself had defected. Like so, this 795 01:06:49.360 --> 01:06:56.639 idea that that Peter in this and the see of Peter can't affect is crazy 796 01:06:56.639 --> 01:07:00.920 to me. It's like he it's obviously pointed out up to the Angel too, 797 01:07:00.039 --> 01:07:03.079 he's not even part of the disciples at that point. Well, it's 798 01:07:03.079 --> 01:07:08.360 going to be brought back in. But Paul, if Rome can't defect, 799 01:07:08.519 --> 01:07:12.719 then why does Paul warn the Roman Church that they will be grafted out if 800 01:07:12.760 --> 01:07:16.599 they fail to believe? I mean, these warnings make no sense if this 801 01:07:16.760 --> 01:07:20.719 is really something impossible, right, And he doesn't say oh, well, 802 01:07:20.840 --> 01:07:24.719 but you know they'll say, well, he's not talking about the Bishop of 803 01:07:24.800 --> 01:07:27.360 Rome. He's talking about Oh yeah, sure. No, it's a warning 804 01:07:27.760 --> 01:07:30.800 to the entire Roman Church. If you are unfaithful, you will be grafted 805 01:07:30.840 --> 01:07:34.639 out. There's no special privilege to this church. In fact, it's the 806 01:07:34.679 --> 01:07:39.679 same type of warning that the Church is In the Book of Revelation of the 807 01:07:39.679 --> 01:07:43.760 seven Ers of Asia Minor, they're warned that they can have their lampstand removed 808 01:07:44.519 --> 01:07:49.119 in the same type of removal as Rome can have right being grafted out through 809 01:07:49.199 --> 01:07:54.599 unbelief or through being puffed up with pride. Isn't it interesting that Paul warns 810 01:07:54.639 --> 01:07:59.199 the Roman Church of being puffed up with pride and the possibility of being grafted 811 01:07:59.199 --> 01:08:09.719 out? Almost prophetic perhaps? Alright, so Solemn Bride to leave. We've 812 01:08:09.760 --> 01:08:12.880 still got a full house here. Anybody else who would like to pop on. 813 01:08:12.960 --> 01:08:16.039 You're welcome to romany cath Yeah, appreciate you having me and I gotta 814 01:08:16.079 --> 01:08:21.920 hop off, Okay, yeah, appreciate Luigi, Father Moses, you're here. 815 01:08:21.960 --> 01:08:30.560 Did you want to speak to something? He's busy lifting weights for now. 816 01:08:32.239 --> 01:08:39.079 Sorry, let's see. We've got a bunch of people who are in 817 01:08:39.119 --> 01:08:59.479 here. Luke, does Luke want to speak? I'm mute, Yeah, 818 01:08:59.640 --> 01:09:15.680 I'm mute. Yeah, all right, Luke's not able to speak. Michael 819 01:09:15.960 --> 01:09:35.800 hm gat to talk or I have a little bit different of a question. 820 01:09:35.880 --> 01:09:40.479 By the way, Jay, I just found you about three weeks ago. 821 01:09:40.680 --> 01:09:46.920 Only enough amazing work. And amazing apologetics. Thank you, thank you. 822 01:09:47.199 --> 01:09:54.479 But I have a slightly odd question I may ask you, gentlemen. See, 823 01:09:54.520 --> 01:10:00.520 I try to say very unbiased. My my goal is to get people 824 01:10:00.680 --> 01:10:11.279 into the church rather than into a specific church un Orthodox. That that's clear. 825 01:10:12.479 --> 01:10:17.520 And what I'm trying to do with my Christian channel across Cruise header is 826 01:10:17.840 --> 01:10:24.079 to really just get people into the church, opening the Bible, questioning what 827 01:10:24.119 --> 01:10:33.199 they believe. And I'm finding it pretty difficult to stay unbiased. And I 828 01:10:33.319 --> 01:10:45.079 was wondering what your perspective, both Jay and both of fathers here, what 829 01:10:45.159 --> 01:10:53.239 your perspectives would be on me trying to remain unbiased. What do you mean 830 01:10:53.319 --> 01:10:56.359 remain unbiased? So I don't really think we can be unbiased? What do 831 01:10:56.399 --> 01:11:01.680 you mean? Yeah, I think that's kind of my issue through So I'm 832 01:11:01.680 --> 01:11:09.239 trying to remain unbiased in the aspect of I'm trying to to When people ask 833 01:11:09.279 --> 01:11:16.119 me questions, I respond in both the Catholic and the Orthodox. So I 834 01:11:16.760 --> 01:11:24.119 try my best to give both perspectives so that people can choose, you know, 835 01:11:24.159 --> 01:11:27.640 which church they go into or enter into. Well, yeah, well, 836 01:11:27.680 --> 01:11:29.439 I'm not trying to be rude to you. I don't think that's the 837 01:11:29.520 --> 01:11:31.319 right approach. I don't think we can mute. I mean, these are 838 01:11:31.399 --> 01:11:36.079 mutually exclusive positions. For example, if your Orthodox, you have to believe, 839 01:11:36.119 --> 01:11:42.239 for example, in the Palamite Synods, and they are mutually exclusive. 840 01:11:42.279 --> 01:11:47.520 With Roman Catholicism, I mean, you don't offer the Jewish perspective right forbably 841 01:11:48.439 --> 01:11:55.159 all the exact it's true, So why why why offer the perspective of a 842 01:11:55.199 --> 01:12:02.239 heretical fact. It doesn't make any sense, That's pretty much, and it's 843 01:12:02.279 --> 01:12:08.439 been heavy on myself so well, I would say I would recommend one of 844 01:12:08.600 --> 01:12:12.960 an antidote perhaps to that would be this book right here. So get this 845 01:12:13.039 --> 01:12:17.039 book by Norman Russell where he's translated. It's really just a translation of the 846 01:12:17.039 --> 01:12:21.119 Palomite Synods and a bunch of letters of Saint Grey Palmas in the Life of 847 01:12:21.159 --> 01:12:26.720 Saint Gregory. So that would be one really good way to maybe drill into 848 01:12:26.760 --> 01:12:30.359 that question. Also, if you're more of a history guy, not really 849 01:12:30.399 --> 01:12:34.479 a theology guy, Christianiese in The Rise of the Papacy by Papa Dooccus and 850 01:12:34.560 --> 01:12:44.399 Mayandorf really solidifies this period of departure. So I'm glad that sauvegn Bra raised 851 01:12:44.399 --> 01:12:46.800 this question about this time period, because there's not a lot of books that 852 01:12:46.840 --> 01:12:51.159 are really good about this period. And that's why I'm so glad that Papa 853 01:12:51.199 --> 01:12:57.000 Doacus and Mandorff wrote this excellent book because a lot of people, you know, 854 01:12:57.640 --> 01:13:01.000 prefer history to straight up theologies to tech nicol and this book is really 855 01:13:01.039 --> 01:13:05.640 good at being historical but then bringing in some of the theological disputes of this 856 01:13:05.760 --> 01:13:11.119 crucial period of departure ten seventy one to fourteen fifty three. So if you're 857 01:13:11.159 --> 01:13:14.359 more of a history buff, I highly highly recommend everybody read this book. 858 01:13:14.359 --> 01:13:18.359 It's great Christianese in the Rise of Papacy the Church ten seventy one to fourteen 859 01:13:18.439 --> 01:13:21.199 fifty three is one of the best texts. Now, there's a lot of 860 01:13:21.239 --> 01:13:26.239 other great texts, you know, Michael Welton's Two Paths, these kinds of 861 01:13:26.239 --> 01:13:31.920 things. There's also the new Sushensky book, which it's good for maybe drilling 862 01:13:31.960 --> 01:13:35.079 into a lot of these quote minds that we've heard tonight. So we've had 863 01:13:35.159 --> 01:13:39.560 you know, Ephicis thrown out and you know there's going to be you know, 864 01:13:39.640 --> 01:13:44.439 Lee has spoken Roman spoken, Cases closed, et cetera. And Sashensky's 865 01:13:44.439 --> 01:13:48.439 new book Papacy and the Orthodox. It kind of has chapters on a lot 866 01:13:48.439 --> 01:13:54.760 of these a lot of these topics, which is really good. But yeah, 867 01:13:54.800 --> 01:13:58.720 so we're we're we're getting really good material published of late on these on 868 01:13:58.760 --> 01:14:03.239 these subjects. But the Papa Docus mind or book is by far one of 869 01:14:03.239 --> 01:14:09.880 the best so long time. And then the Norman Russell book is just like 870 01:14:09.960 --> 01:14:13.960 this is now essential, Like if if we haven't had an English translation of 871 01:14:14.000 --> 01:14:17.640 Palomite Synods really until this, and this is all of them. So this 872 01:14:18.159 --> 01:14:21.600 and the reason that's so important is that we've had so many of these Roman 873 01:14:21.640 --> 01:14:27.880 Catholic car salesmen trying to tell us that, oh, we're all saying the 874 01:14:27.880 --> 01:14:31.439 same thing, and oh, actually palamism is can be reconciled with Tomism. 875 01:14:31.640 --> 01:14:40.520 No, this explicitly rejects the Tomistic reading of Palamas. In the Fourth Thomas, 876 01:14:40.520 --> 01:14:45.239 the fourth Palamite Synod specifically rejects the Tomistic view. So enough of this 877 01:14:45.640 --> 01:14:49.680 nonsense and all the car salesmanship that they've been telling us for so long. 878 01:14:50.800 --> 01:15:10.439 Sublime Providence gotta unmute man. We've got a super chat from MM and he 879 01:15:10.439 --> 01:15:15.000 says, does Elijah and the prophets of Bale show us that all occultism is 880 01:15:15.039 --> 01:15:19.000 fake and gray. Well, it shows that in that instance to be fake 881 01:15:19.079 --> 01:15:24.960 and gray because they're cutting themselves in their demon doesn't manifest. But I mean, 882 01:15:24.960 --> 01:15:29.039 we have other places in scripture where occultism seems to be real. You 883 01:15:29.079 --> 01:15:36.000 know, Saul in the Witch of Indoor, you know the Samuel appears. 884 01:15:36.039 --> 01:15:42.199 We have you know, Paul casting out demons. In the Book of Acts. 885 01:15:42.239 --> 01:15:45.279 One of the girl who's a fortune teller is said to have a pythonic 886 01:15:45.279 --> 01:15:47.439 spirit. I think in the Greek it says something like that. You know, 887 01:15:47.520 --> 01:15:54.199 Jonathon John Brace are said to mimic the first two quote miracles. I 888 01:15:54.239 --> 01:15:56.720 mean, whether they did miracles or not. I mean, in other words, 889 01:15:56.960 --> 01:16:00.359 we have some instances in scripture where there does appear to be real monic 890 01:16:00.479 --> 01:16:04.960 activity. So I wouldn't say that all occultism is fake and gray just from 891 01:16:05.000 --> 01:16:10.560 the Elijah story, but certainly the prophets of Bill didn't seem to have any 892 01:16:10.640 --> 01:16:13.359 any powers. Did you go ahead? Man? Got on, I mute 893 01:16:13.399 --> 01:16:17.079 your own you got your hand raised? Go ahead? Okay, yes, 894 01:16:17.399 --> 01:16:23.279 okay, yeah, what's up? I'm doing pretty good? So can I 895 01:16:23.319 --> 01:16:26.439 assume that? Oh? Real quick? Huge fan of you. I see 896 01:16:26.720 --> 01:16:30.560 Rachel Wilson and listening to a huge fan of her and a husband, I 897 01:16:30.640 --> 01:16:34.159 just want to say, right quick, uh, if we all believe in 898 01:16:34.199 --> 01:16:39.880 a universal Catholic and Aposolic Church, and I assume we all agree in this, 899 01:16:39.960 --> 01:16:44.399 right I'm Catholic, Well we don't. We don't accept that the Roman 900 01:16:44.439 --> 01:16:47.600 Catholic Church is still part of that body. Fine, yeah, but the 901 01:16:47.640 --> 01:16:51.279 thing with the Roman Catholic Church is the Roman part is just the Western Rice. 902 01:16:51.319 --> 01:16:56.359 We have Eastern Rice. So this twenty three No, it's not it's 903 01:16:56.399 --> 01:16:59.039 not no, no, no, it's not about right. It's about the 904 01:16:59.439 --> 01:17:03.239 Roman Sea and Vatican one. So it's not just about the rights. Yeah, 905 01:17:03.279 --> 01:17:09.880 I understand all that. Mostly this is not I mean, it's somewhat 906 01:17:09.920 --> 01:17:13.439 of a theological issue, but that can be worked going to various councils. 907 01:17:14.119 --> 01:17:17.840 This was an ancient political tension that happens between the Western Roman Empire and the 908 01:17:17.880 --> 01:17:21.439 Eastern Roman Empire. That's what this is about now, and that's part of 909 01:17:21.479 --> 01:17:26.359 it. That's what we already argued earlier. It's partly geopolitical, but it's 910 01:17:26.399 --> 01:17:30.079 also theological. We can never accept the double eternal hyposthetic procession. We can 911 01:17:30.119 --> 01:17:35.520 never accept created grace, and you don't have to because it's not necessary that 912 01:17:35.560 --> 01:17:40.399 you do that under the Eastern Rice. So no, that's not true. 913 01:17:40.520 --> 01:17:45.560 That's not true. Eastern Riot Catholics are expected to accept Vatican One, regardless 914 01:17:45.560 --> 01:17:48.800 of the fact that Melchites and other people pretend like they don't have to. 915 01:17:48.960 --> 01:17:56.239 It's just simply not true. All that says is that it's a contradictory position 916 01:17:56.720 --> 01:18:00.199 that allows for you to pretend that you don't exc that Vatican one. But 917 01:18:00.279 --> 01:18:03.880 Vatican one is binding on everybody. So it's just it's just a made up 918 01:18:03.880 --> 01:18:08.279 thing that Eastern Catholics don't have to accept Vatican one. Vatican one does not 919 01:18:08.359 --> 01:18:14.640 speak that way. Certainly, a Vatican one could be changed. So no, 920 01:18:14.800 --> 01:18:17.399 Vatican one cannot be changed. What are you talking about. No, 921 01:18:17.479 --> 01:18:23.840 it cannot. You can't change that's an Acumenical councils dogma. You can't change 922 01:18:23.880 --> 01:18:29.199 dogma from the from the seat of the pope. You can because he can, 923 01:18:29.199 --> 01:18:31.520 he can declare infallibility and change it. Okay, so it can no, 924 01:18:32.880 --> 01:18:35.640 And well all that says no, Well, all that says is that 925 01:18:35.680 --> 01:18:41.399 the position again is inconsistent because supposedly unchangeable dogma can be changed by the pope. 926 01:18:41.439 --> 01:18:45.319 So again that's another reputation of the position. So that's fine, we 927 01:18:45.439 --> 01:18:49.960 understand the history. How is that fine If that's a contradiction, it's fine 928 01:18:50.000 --> 01:18:56.920 because the Western Church had to deal with more uh than that's than the Eastern 929 01:18:57.000 --> 01:19:00.279 Church did at the time. It was a lot of changes that the Western 930 01:19:00.560 --> 01:19:06.399 Church made to acclimate to the various populations to get them on board. So 931 01:19:06.760 --> 01:19:12.479 then when you look at the shit number, difference between how many Catholics they 932 01:19:12.479 --> 01:19:16.079 are and there as many Orthodox they are is not much bigger than a Protestant 933 01:19:16.279 --> 01:19:20.159 denomination. That's not true. But it's also a fallacy. So you moved 934 01:19:20.159 --> 01:19:25.000 to a fallacy of a numbers game. So was the true Church determined by 935 01:19:25.079 --> 01:19:29.800 numbers when most of the church was aryan or semiarian in the fourth century? 936 01:19:29.880 --> 01:19:34.079 The true Church is based on Apostolic secession. I just asked you now that 937 01:19:34.640 --> 01:19:39.319 you're not answering the question. In the fourth century, the numbers game was 938 01:19:39.359 --> 01:19:42.159 on the side of the Arians and the semi arians. So is the numbers 939 01:19:42.199 --> 01:19:45.680 game or not? No, not necessarily. I'm talking more strategically, So 940 01:19:45.720 --> 01:19:53.760 I'm not saying I'm saying I want to see a universal Aposolic church. It 941 01:19:53.800 --> 01:19:59.039 already exists. So it's not determined by numbers. Catholicity is determined by the 942 01:19:59.039 --> 01:20:02.000 fullness of truth. That's why Saint Maximus says that I would be amongst the 943 01:20:02.039 --> 01:20:05.960 small band of true Catholics even if most of the bishops were not Catholic. 944 01:20:08.479 --> 01:20:15.119 Do you want to save the solo everyone on earth? Again, you're presupposing 945 01:20:15.239 --> 01:20:19.000 that we're both part of a giant ecumenical church, and we're not. I 946 01:20:19.079 --> 01:20:25.800 understand that Orthodox don't see to see Catholics as being so, then just stating 947 01:20:25.880 --> 01:20:30.880 to me an ecumenical position doesn't prove your position. Your position is incorrect. 948 01:20:30.399 --> 01:20:33.880 No, well, let me articklate. My position. My position is this, 949 01:20:34.840 --> 01:20:39.319 My position is there are way more Catholics than the Orthodox. I already 950 01:20:39.359 --> 01:20:43.279 addressed the numbers argument. You don't understand why that's a bad argument. No, 951 01:20:43.279 --> 01:20:45.359 no, no, that's not That's only a part of the argument. 952 01:20:45.439 --> 01:20:48.399 So the argument doesn't consist of just when Clinton. So it exists through a 953 01:20:48.439 --> 01:20:53.159 series of premises, and we'll get to a conclusive all right, So deductively, 954 01:20:53.319 --> 01:20:57.600 so I can say, uh, the vast majority of well Christian's period 955 01:20:57.600 --> 01:21:05.279 of Catholic is the largest church that has Apostolic succession. Uh. All you 956 01:21:05.359 --> 01:21:09.239 need to be to be Christian is just except the nice and creat We can 957 01:21:09.479 --> 01:21:13.319 discuss it for the real quake. But outside of that, the point is 958 01:21:13.359 --> 01:21:17.359 strategically Okay, So so in other words, we're not gonna care about We're 959 01:21:17.359 --> 01:21:20.600 not going to care about correct doctrine. We're gonna make up an idea. 960 01:21:20.640 --> 01:21:24.960 What's strategic. No, no, no, we do care about. Now 961 01:21:25.000 --> 01:21:30.239 you're moving the gold post. Conversation can be had within the church, So 962 01:21:30.399 --> 01:21:33.840 that can be had. We understand all of the history associated with it. 963 01:21:34.000 --> 01:21:41.319 We're in the present right now. This is this is just us author. 964 01:21:41.760 --> 01:21:45.079 How is this an argument? How is this an argument for the Roman county 965 01:21:45.159 --> 01:21:48.119 position? All I'm hearing is you talking around a bunch of stuff. Where's 966 01:21:48.119 --> 01:21:54.119 the argument? Okay, here's the argument. The pope was always considered the 967 01:21:54.119 --> 01:21:59.039 first and most equals. I believe that all the patriarchs of all of Orthodoxy, 968 01:21:59.399 --> 01:22:02.560 the original four, which is, like you said, Rome, Alexander, 969 01:22:02.920 --> 01:22:08.720 Alexandria, and and Jerusalem. Uh, and then of course Constantinople later 970 01:22:08.800 --> 01:22:13.439 on at the Constantine. We believe all of those is legitimate, and to 971 01:22:13.520 --> 01:22:17.680 a degree even Anglican is. To a degree Anglican is drastically moved away from 972 01:22:17.720 --> 01:22:21.119 Doshrin. But they also Okay, So your argument is that because the Roman 973 01:22:21.199 --> 01:22:27.279 Cality Church accepts a wider swath of what's considered Christian, that strategically means it's 974 01:22:27.319 --> 01:22:31.600 better and approves it. That's a terrible argument. No, because it's bigger, 975 01:22:31.640 --> 01:22:35.760 it accepts more and is more. Again, I already addressed these arguments. 976 01:22:36.279 --> 01:22:40.640 I already addressed these arguments. So you're just gonna keep talking around it, 977 01:22:41.600 --> 01:22:45.680 Boycott, what's up? Those are terrible arguments. I mean by that 978 01:22:45.680 --> 01:22:50.720 line of argumentation, the more broad I make, the most acumenist position is 979 01:22:50.720 --> 01:22:56.039 therefore true. So why don't I just be a perennialist and say that, 980 01:22:56.159 --> 01:22:59.880 oh, we're all on the same team because all the religion that's actually the 981 01:23:00.000 --> 01:23:05.239 attitude of Nosratate is that all the scale of the world religions, they're all 982 01:23:05.279 --> 01:23:11.840 on a graded scale, and the Muslims are like forty percent correct, so 983 01:23:11.880 --> 01:23:16.279 they're part of our strategic alliance as well. So if I just move the 984 01:23:16.319 --> 01:23:24.840 goalpost, that makes the position true. That's a terrible argument. Exactly, 985 01:23:24.960 --> 01:23:28.239 People in the chat. Well, by this argument, Islam is part of 986 01:23:28.239 --> 01:23:30.159 the faith too. Yeah, exactly, that's the whole attitude of nos Ratate. 987 01:23:32.039 --> 01:23:34.760 Well, we all call them the same God because the worship one God. 988 01:23:39.880 --> 01:23:44.520 What does LUMANGENTM. Sixteen say? Right here, We're all calling on 989 01:23:44.600 --> 01:23:47.720 the same God because there's one God. Part of the problem with that argument 990 01:23:47.760 --> 01:23:53.439 two J is that if all these different sects have Apotholic succession, and then 991 01:23:53.600 --> 01:23:57.600 all of their priesthoods are valid, included to Anglicans, then all of their 992 01:23:57.640 --> 01:24:00.800 sacraments are valid. Well, actually need to be part of the Roman Catholic 993 01:24:00.920 --> 01:24:06.840 Church to receive the sacraments, you know what I mean. Yeah, the 994 01:24:06.920 --> 01:24:11.840 Roman Catholic position is that you need the sacraments in order to be saved. 995 01:24:11.880 --> 01:24:15.000 And you say, well, look, the sacraments are outside of Catholicism, 996 01:24:15.359 --> 01:24:17.920 then you can be saved outside of it as well. Yeah, And I 997 01:24:17.920 --> 01:24:24.039 mean he's not even correct. Leo the thirteenth already stated about the nullity of 998 01:24:24.079 --> 01:24:32.359 Anglican orders. So the Roman Catholic position Apostolica cure Anglicans do not have order 999 01:24:32.760 --> 01:24:36.760 valid. They do not have valid episodic succession. According to pote Leo the 1000 01:24:36.800 --> 01:24:40.680 thirteen. So again, oh well maybe now they do. So again, 1001 01:24:40.800 --> 01:24:44.800 this is an ever evolving changing thing, and this guy should understand he made 1002 01:24:44.840 --> 01:24:46.520 that. So he said, well, the Pope can do this. The 1003 01:24:46.520 --> 01:24:48.640 Pope can change Vatican one, you know, as he said, the Pope 1004 01:24:48.640 --> 01:24:53.239 can change. No, he can't. Oh but wait, he actually can, 1005 01:24:53.399 --> 01:24:56.520 because the religion is a worship of the Pope. That's the whole religion. 1006 01:24:56.960 --> 01:25:01.079 So even though in eighteen sixty nine, eighteen ninety six Anglicans don't have 1007 01:25:01.159 --> 01:25:05.039 valid orders, well according to the post Vatican Oh non, Now maybe they 1008 01:25:05.039 --> 01:25:09.680 can't. You see. So it's always subject to flux and change, and 1009 01:25:09.720 --> 01:25:12.880 it's really at the whims of what the Pope says, uh, which is 1010 01:25:13.199 --> 01:25:15.880 whatever the need is of the time. So it's nothing to do with it's 1011 01:25:15.880 --> 01:25:20.319 objectively true. It's literally based around the Fiat, the divine word of the 1012 01:25:20.319 --> 01:25:30.560 Pope, and that's why the position is obviously not true. Not go ahead, 1013 01:25:31.520 --> 01:25:39.000 hello, yep hi. Yeah, So I guess what's convinced me of 1014 01:25:39.000 --> 01:25:45.600 Catholicism is the overwhelming evidence that Catholicism has that's unique to Catholicism. So my 1015 01:25:46.159 --> 01:25:51.439 central question I would ask is when God reveals himself publicly? Why does he 1016 01:25:51.520 --> 01:25:58.079 do so exclusively through the Catholic Church? No idea? Where you were? 1017 01:25:58.119 --> 01:26:00.239 I mean, it's a terrible argument. So tell you where I'm going with 1018 01:26:00.319 --> 01:26:02.920 it? Real quick. Well you mentioned all these evidences, So what's the 1019 01:26:02.920 --> 01:26:10.199 evidences you didn't give? I just real quick, I'm there we go fatm 1020 01:26:10.960 --> 01:26:15.800 Okay, So how did three children know the exact time and place that the 1021 01:26:15.880 --> 01:26:19.000 supernatural event would occur? Well, you're assuming it's supernatural, first of all, 1022 01:26:19.119 --> 01:26:23.520 so how do you know that? Okay? So he's not even gonna 1023 01:26:23.520 --> 01:26:26.920 listen? So what hold on? That's what a newspaper says. I have 1024 01:26:26.960 --> 01:26:32.880 newspapers over lied. Yes, but oh but here, no, have you 1025 01:26:32.920 --> 01:26:38.920 have you read it? Have you have you read that? Well, let's 1026 01:26:39.000 --> 01:26:41.439 let's take it to the question. So you're going to say a miracle claim? 1027 01:26:42.760 --> 01:26:45.000 How many? How hold on? Hold on? How many religions and 1028 01:26:45.039 --> 01:26:51.279 groups out there claim miracles? Not many claim public miracles? Worth thousands witness 1029 01:26:51.359 --> 01:26:56.920 it, and there are plenty of Hindu yogis that claim public miracles. Sai 1030 01:26:57.000 --> 01:27:01.560 Baba claimed many public miracles. He had many uh patawan's underneath him that thought 1031 01:27:01.560 --> 01:27:06.319 he was a miracle worker, but not you again. My My point is 1032 01:27:06.319 --> 01:27:10.960 that you in Catholicism, there are thousands of witnesses. Okay, so or 1033 01:27:11.000 --> 01:27:15.720 it's objectively verified, and I can name other instances as well. So hold 1034 01:27:15.760 --> 01:27:19.760 on. So ok so every so Orthodox churches claim miracles, We claim the 1035 01:27:19.760 --> 01:27:26.560 miracle the Holy Fire. Okay, this is publicly witnessed every year in Jerusalem. 1036 01:27:26.800 --> 01:27:30.600 So wait a minute, So what how do I know where the If 1037 01:27:30.600 --> 01:27:35.039 I'm not visibly empirically there, how am I going to judge the faith on 1038 01:27:35.399 --> 01:27:42.720 miracle claims? So? So okay, here, just real, So I 1039 01:27:42.760 --> 01:27:45.960 guess my My answer to that is it's it's different. It's not different. 1040 01:27:46.640 --> 01:27:50.079 You want it to be different. How's it different? Okay, it's different 1041 01:27:50.119 --> 01:27:56.399 in that and that you had, you know, seventy thousand there the consensus 1042 01:27:56.600 --> 01:27:59.399 was, and it wasn't all you know, we're all Catholic Christians. Oh 1043 01:27:59.399 --> 01:28:01.520 okay, So it's a miracle if it's seventy thousand, but not if it's 1044 01:28:01.600 --> 01:28:05.640 I don't know what twenty thousand in Jerusalem, Like, what's the what's the 1045 01:28:05.680 --> 01:28:11.680 miracle proof number? Thirty thousand, fifty thousand? This is arbitrary. I 1046 01:28:11.880 --> 01:28:14.439 look, I agree with with your principle. But here, just let me 1047 01:28:14.520 --> 01:28:16.520 finish my pot real quick. You're very intelligent, but I just want to 1048 01:28:16.520 --> 01:28:20.039 say one thing. So what happened was it was pouring down rain pals. 1049 01:28:20.079 --> 01:28:23.720 Everything I know the story of Fatam I used to be a Roman Catholic man. 1050 01:28:24.560 --> 01:28:27.359 We don't need we don't need the story. Okay, we know what 1051 01:28:27.439 --> 01:28:30.239 Fatima is, we know the claims of it. How am I supposed to 1052 01:28:30.359 --> 01:28:33.960 know that that's the miracle that I go with versus another miracle claim? Is 1053 01:28:34.000 --> 01:28:39.000 it the specific number of people? What's the miracle number? What's the magic 1054 01:28:39.039 --> 01:28:45.039 miracle number? Fifty thousand, thousands of thousands of people witness? And if 1055 01:28:45.439 --> 01:28:51.680 Catholicism is false, then why did how did three children Catholic know the exact 1056 01:28:51.680 --> 01:28:56.520 time and place that this? Yeah? I believe that that's a geopolitically motivated 1057 01:28:56.560 --> 01:29:00.119 story to prepare for World War one, and that the Western Powers use that 1058 01:29:00.520 --> 01:29:04.199 as a way to prepare war with Russia. So you think, okay, 1059 01:29:04.239 --> 01:29:08.800 well, if you think it's a lie, you think that, like everyone 1060 01:29:08.880 --> 01:29:13.000 you know, all the witness stories and the newspaper articles and all of that, 1061 01:29:13.079 --> 01:29:18.880 it's all false. I believe that even if it were true, it 1062 01:29:18.880 --> 01:29:24.279 has nothing to do with proving what religion is true, because every religion has 1063 01:29:24.319 --> 01:29:27.920 all kinds of claims, every religion has all kinds of miracles. So there's 1064 01:29:27.960 --> 01:29:30.399 no way that miracles can be the thing that determined the true and the false 1065 01:29:30.399 --> 01:29:35.560 faith. But not to this degree though, that's arbitrary. That's arbitrary. 1066 01:29:35.600 --> 01:29:39.720 So again I can come up with I mean, if you go to Russia, 1067 01:29:40.479 --> 01:29:43.279 if you go to Russia, you will hear countless stories of miracles. 1068 01:29:43.399 --> 01:29:47.479 Does that how does so do you hear me arguing that that proves orthodoxy because 1069 01:29:47.680 --> 01:29:54.720 in the thousand year history of Russian Orthodoxy there's miracle claims of widay. So 1070 01:29:54.760 --> 01:29:59.239 again this is it doesn't matter because there's no there's nothing about the number of 1071 01:29:59.239 --> 01:30:03.079 witnesses that makes it suddenly that one that's true because there's thousands of witnesses in 1072 01:30:03.159 --> 01:30:06.920 Jerusalem, and you discount that one. So then you have to come up 1073 01:30:06.920 --> 01:30:13.000 with so now there's miracles in the false faith. If there's miracles in the 1074 01:30:13.039 --> 01:30:16.159 false faith, then the miracles don't prove the true faith. No, no, 1075 01:30:16.159 --> 01:30:23.039 no, no. The miracle of the fire in Jerusalem hasn't been objectively 1076 01:30:23.119 --> 01:30:27.560 verified because another example. Okay, so now you're arbitrary. Yeah, so 1077 01:30:27.680 --> 01:30:30.039 right, But I'm supposed to accept one hundred year old news stories that happen 1078 01:30:30.119 --> 01:30:33.560 to fit into geopolitical strategies. Let me ask you a question about Fatima. 1079 01:30:33.920 --> 01:30:39.640 Let me ask you a question about Fatima. Sure, Where does communism come 1080 01:30:39.640 --> 01:30:45.920 from Russia? Okay? Yeah, okay? Does it? Yeah? No 1081 01:30:46.000 --> 01:30:54.640 it doesn't. Where does it come from China? I'm not sure to be 1082 01:30:54.720 --> 01:30:57.399 mean to you, man, but no, it doesn't come from China. 1083 01:30:57.439 --> 01:31:00.279 It doesn't come from Russia. You don't know where communism originates. You to 1084 01:31:00.359 --> 01:31:03.840 believe Fatima, you don't even know where it originates. Tell me it comes 1085 01:31:03.880 --> 01:31:09.239 out of England. Okay, okay, So how come Mary didn't mention that? 1086 01:31:11.000 --> 01:31:16.119 How come Mary didn't mention that she said because there's a geopolitical motivation to 1087 01:31:16.199 --> 01:31:24.520 what she said preparing for World War One? What's your point though? Okay? 1088 01:31:24.520 --> 01:31:28.039 What's my point is that it's not Mary if she's not telling you the 1089 01:31:28.039 --> 01:31:30.720 truth about where it comes from, and she's giving the impression that it comes 1090 01:31:30.720 --> 01:31:34.199 out of Russia. Communism doesn't come from Russia. It comes from England like 1091 01:31:34.279 --> 01:31:42.159 Marx and Ingles, and it was exported to Russia. You don't know this, 1092 01:31:43.039 --> 01:31:49.680 but but in regards of the Mary and apparition. But what I mean, 1093 01:31:54.000 --> 01:32:05.039 because mm hmmm, because that I mean, I'm not trying to be 1094 01:32:05.079 --> 01:32:09.119 mean. I'm gonna have to pull out because if I continue, I'm gonna 1095 01:32:09.119 --> 01:32:12.319 get mean, and then people are gonna use that as an excuse to say 1096 01:32:12.479 --> 01:32:15.960 that I'm just being mean. So I'm not trying to be mean to you. 1097 01:32:15.239 --> 01:32:21.199 Then I'm gonna have to pull out now because I'm gonna start getting sassy 1098 01:32:21.479 --> 01:32:25.840 and that will just be a way for people to get mad at me. 1099 01:32:26.600 --> 01:32:34.279 So so to those that are wondering, my point is that there's no arbitrary 1100 01:32:34.359 --> 01:32:41.680 number to tell us the true miracle. Oh well, when it hits fifty 1101 01:32:41.720 --> 01:32:45.319 thousand people, that's when we know it's the miracle that proves that religion to 1102 01:32:45.359 --> 01:32:47.680 be true. But if you sign up today, you can actually get your 1103 01:32:47.680 --> 01:32:54.319 own miracle calculator where you can calculate the exactly. I mean, this is 1104 01:32:54.319 --> 01:32:56.640 how Roman Catholic thing. I'm not trying to be mean, but this is 1105 01:32:56.760 --> 01:33:02.039 like remember Cameron's Baysing spreadsheet argument that will mathematically prove the papac So this is 1106 01:33:02.079 --> 01:33:08.399 how stupid this is. You could actually if we were actually bad guys, 1107 01:33:08.960 --> 01:33:15.680 we could have a whole like multi marketing pyramid scheme where we send people. 1108 01:33:15.720 --> 01:33:18.680 Think I'm joking. When Cameron says that he converted, he says he converted 1109 01:33:18.680 --> 01:33:27.880 because he came up with a Bayesian spreadsheet quick books argument where mathematically he can 1110 01:33:28.000 --> 01:33:33.000 prove with ninety percent certainty or some ridiculous thing that we are ninety five point 1111 01:33:33.079 --> 01:33:36.640 four percent certain that the papacy is true based on my basing. This is 1112 01:33:36.680 --> 01:33:40.800 so, this is literally the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. 1113 01:33:41.359 --> 01:33:45.039 And how can these miracles testify to the truth of Roman Catholicism. It is 1114 01:33:45.119 --> 01:33:49.880 patently false. Well, you notice that what happens in Roman Catholicism is that 1115 01:33:49.960 --> 01:33:56.560 when people are confronted with the historical and the theological problems, that's all brushed 1116 01:33:56.560 --> 01:34:00.079 aside and then you immediately run to Fatima. And I've talked to so many 1117 01:34:00.119 --> 01:34:03.840 Roman Catholics who will They say, I have to shut my brain off and 1118 01:34:04.000 --> 01:34:09.520 just jump to Fatima because that's what I fall back on. So total irrationality 1119 01:34:09.920 --> 01:34:13.319 for something, by the way, which is supposed to be supremely scholastic and 1120 01:34:13.399 --> 01:34:23.520 rational, but then it's ultimately right. He just went into subjective prost experiences. 1121 01:34:25.560 --> 01:34:28.680 People think I'm joking. This is an actual We did a whole livestream 1122 01:34:28.760 --> 01:34:33.960 laughing and making fun of this preposterous argument from Cameron over here on pints with 1123 01:34:33.960 --> 01:34:41.720 Aquinas where mate Fried. Please tell me, Cameron, as we sit up 1124 01:34:41.720 --> 01:34:45.319 here on top of the Vatican, on the roof of the Vatican, smoking 1125 01:34:45.359 --> 01:34:49.359 seagulls, pretending on Australian giants bond, tell me what's the quick books argument 1126 01:34:49.399 --> 01:34:54.680 for the papacy? Oh well, I'll tell you. I lay down a 1127 01:34:54.760 --> 01:34:57.960 quick book spreadsheet and it proves the papacy. I'm not joking. That's like 1128 01:34:58.000 --> 01:35:02.319 literally what the argument is. Anyway, So we got other roal mechalics who 1129 01:35:02.399 --> 01:35:12.520 want to pop on. I assume Tyler has been whiting for a while. 1130 01:35:12.520 --> 01:35:30.520 What's up, Tyler? You have to unmute Tyler? Can hear me? 1131 01:35:30.880 --> 01:35:33.399 Yeah? Oh there we go? Okay, cool, all right, Jaydyre. 1132 01:35:33.439 --> 01:35:38.399 I'm a big fan. I am merely a student of the faith. 1133 01:35:38.760 --> 01:35:43.079 I am not an expert. So, but I was on the fence between 1134 01:35:43.119 --> 01:35:48.640 Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism. I decided to go with Eastern Catholicism. But I 1135 01:35:48.680 --> 01:35:53.880 thought I might say some of my objections and see how you refute it. 1136 01:35:53.920 --> 01:35:55.840 I won't be able to. Okay, Before we go to that, I 1137 01:35:55.840 --> 01:35:59.279 want to ask you, uh, you know, I think David made kind 1138 01:35:59.279 --> 01:36:04.399 of the ultimate kill shot video where you know, really Eastern Catholicism is the 1139 01:36:04.479 --> 01:36:10.520 strongest argument against Roman Catholicism. So, you know, how do we get 1140 01:36:10.920 --> 01:36:15.039 mar Mary Nestorius being revered? How do we get revisionism to where people who 1141 01:36:15.079 --> 01:36:21.560 are considered heretics like Polla, mos markov Ephesis, Photius, now they're revitalized 1142 01:36:21.560 --> 01:36:25.359 and renovated to be saints. I mean, does that not tell you that 1143 01:36:25.439 --> 01:36:30.000 this is a geopolitically motivated, altering and changing position where people who are heretics 1144 01:36:30.000 --> 01:36:33.800 for centuries can suddenly be saints. Yeah, that's that's a that's a tough 1145 01:36:33.840 --> 01:36:41.000 one. I think there are that It's it's hard to say. I'm still 1146 01:36:41.039 --> 01:36:43.760 trying to work that out. Okay, Well have you have you seen David's 1147 01:36:43.800 --> 01:36:47.239 classic video on that? No, okay, well here's the video. Eastern 1148 01:36:47.239 --> 01:36:54.319 Catholicism refutes Rome and he fleshes out a lot of these types of arguments. 1149 01:36:54.399 --> 01:37:00.039 So go ahead, okay, Okay, cool, So I one of the 1150 01:37:00.119 --> 01:37:05.600 things that really was tough for me is in there is an argument made by 1151 01:37:05.600 --> 01:37:15.000 Pope Leo he opposed Canon twenty eight of the Council of calcel Ony. Okay, 1152 01:37:15.119 --> 01:37:16.720 so I'm familiar. So do you know did you look into why he 1153 01:37:16.760 --> 01:37:25.119 opposed it? Yeah? I guess I really like the idea that I don't 1154 01:37:25.199 --> 01:37:30.479 like that Constantinople could just be declared the second See without any Apostolic pedigree, 1155 01:37:30.119 --> 01:37:34.960 and I guess that was But do you understand Rome eventually agreed to that. 1156 01:37:38.479 --> 01:37:42.319 No, I didn't understand it. Yeah, so a couple hundred years after 1157 01:37:42.439 --> 01:37:50.279 Pope Leo, Rome accepts that Conceptinople is second. Oh okay, yeah, 1158 01:37:51.039 --> 01:37:56.800 but but okay, okay, that's I'm not going to refute your arguments because 1159 01:37:56.840 --> 01:37:59.000 I'm not I'm not an ext No, that's true. You can go look 1160 01:37:59.000 --> 01:38:03.000 it up. But the other thing I would like to say is that, 1161 01:38:03.239 --> 01:38:12.079 uh, would you say that Pope Leo uh saw the saw didn't wouldn't you 1162 01:38:12.119 --> 01:38:16.880 think that Pope Leo had saw Roman supremacy in a similar way as defined by 1163 01:38:17.000 --> 01:38:21.279 Vatican One? No, not at all. Really, No, if you 1164 01:38:23.079 --> 01:38:28.920 read about what they did at Calcidon, did they just accept what Leo said, 1165 01:38:28.920 --> 01:38:34.119 and Leo spoke case closed. No, they spent several days comparing what 1166 01:38:34.199 --> 01:38:39.960 Leo says to Cyril. Cyril was the test of orthodoxy at Calcedon, not 1167 01:38:40.079 --> 01:38:48.439 Leo. Okay, And have you watched Father Price on Reason and Theology? 1168 01:38:49.000 --> 01:38:53.760 No? Okay? Well, when Father Price is on Leo Ari is on 1169 01:38:53.920 --> 01:38:59.399 Reason and Theology with Lofton and Ibarra, they say, what do you think 1170 01:38:59.439 --> 01:39:03.920 about paper supremacy at at Chalcedon? And he says there is no preapal supremacy 1171 01:39:03.920 --> 01:39:08.399 at Calcidon. And they pulled down that clip because it was an embarrassment. 1172 01:39:10.560 --> 01:39:15.159 And he's the one, He's the one that's the translator of the councils that 1173 01:39:15.279 --> 01:39:18.199 everyone accepts the price. The price, Tuls, all right, let me 1174 01:39:18.199 --> 01:39:25.560 play it for it. I've got it over here on my my clips page, 1175 01:39:26.119 --> 01:39:36.520 okay. And I said, what about breakfast there, Tiffany, as 1176 01:39:36.600 --> 01:39:42.399 you said, I think I remember those some Then all right, here it 1177 01:39:42.479 --> 01:39:49.039 is, let's see shorts. It's a short clip. All right, So 1178 01:39:49.119 --> 01:40:00.880 this is Father Price on Reason and Theology. I can't get the worst of 1179 01:40:01.000 --> 01:40:12.239 sound? Was there no sound? Heeded him? Hold on, I gotta 1180 01:40:12.279 --> 01:40:16.279 go back to the beginning of right now, hold on, here we go, 1181 01:40:20.560 --> 01:40:30.000 seated him. It's not letting me move the cursor back to the beginning 1182 01:40:30.000 --> 01:40:34.199 of this held one. I owe the banks a lot of money, but 1183 01:40:34.359 --> 01:40:46.520 little do they know. Hold on, this is grabbing me crazy. Kay 1184 01:40:53.439 --> 01:41:02.000 made my screen a little bit smaller to reach the button. Kay and Chalcedon 1185 01:41:02.079 --> 01:41:08.479 feel they needed to judge Theodora. If Leo had already reinsated him, why 1186 01:41:08.479 --> 01:41:13.239 did Calcedon feel the need to judge Theodore it if Leo had, as the 1187 01:41:13.279 --> 01:41:20.399 pope had already reinstated him, is the question to Price. They didn't they 1188 01:41:20.439 --> 01:41:30.000 didn't recognize Roman jurisdiction in the Eastern provinces. Uh oh so, and then 1189 01:41:30.159 --> 01:41:36.119 Eborro's face drops and you can't believe that he said that. Now, this 1190 01:41:38.119 --> 01:41:43.960 is echoed in the scholarship that Rome now promotes and accepts both at the chi 1191 01:41:43.960 --> 01:41:48.319 eighty document, paragraph nineteen, which says that the Roman bishop did not express 1192 01:41:48.640 --> 01:41:54.239 canonical authority or exercise canonical authority over the churches of the East, exactly what 1193 01:41:54.399 --> 01:41:59.960 Price says. And then the Alexandria document goes way further than the Chiady document 1194 01:42:00.359 --> 01:42:04.640 and it mets about ninety of the Orthodox arguments against the paper. Oh wow, 1195 01:42:08.359 --> 01:42:12.840 yeah, have you read the Alexander document? No, okay, so 1196 01:42:12.920 --> 01:42:18.840 this is a paper. Let's see what else were they gonna say? Uh, 1197 01:42:18.880 --> 01:42:26.479 there's there's one other thing I wanted to say. Let's see what was 1198 01:42:26.520 --> 01:42:42.760 it? Oh? Oh yeah, yah, the Council of Sartica. So 1199 01:42:43.159 --> 01:42:49.159 the uh what The one thing I kept getting in like Orthodox circles was Rome 1200 01:42:49.239 --> 01:42:54.119 had this primacy of honor, which just didn't jive well with me because it 1201 01:42:54.279 --> 01:43:01.239 just like didn't seem consistent with history that like, certainly Rome way more of 1202 01:43:01.279 --> 01:43:06.920 a primacy than just honor, And I think the Council of Sartica was just 1203 01:43:06.960 --> 01:43:12.600 a clear rebuttal of that. Yeah, I totally disagree. In fact, 1204 01:43:12.880 --> 01:43:17.399 if you read the very document I just mentioned, paragraph nineteen three sentences prior 1205 01:43:17.520 --> 01:43:21.279 to the statement that the Bishop of Rome did not exercise authority in the East 1206 01:43:21.560 --> 01:43:25.720 is about the Canons of Sartica, and then we read it. Over the 1207 01:43:25.720 --> 01:43:28.880 century, many appeals were made to the Bishop of Rome from the East in 1208 01:43:28.920 --> 01:43:32.000 disciplinary matters, such as the deposition of a bishop. Attempt was made at 1209 01:43:32.000 --> 01:43:36.439 the Sonata of Sartica in three forty three to establish rules for this procedure Sartica 1210 01:43:36.520 --> 01:43:40.920 was received at the Council of Trollo in six po ninety two. The Canons 1211 01:43:40.960 --> 01:43:44.520 of Sartica determined that a bishop who had been condemned could appeal to the Bishop 1212 01:43:44.560 --> 01:43:46.960 of Rome, and that the latter, if he deemed appropriate, could order 1213 01:43:47.039 --> 01:43:53.880 a retrial to be conducted by the bishops in the province neighboring the bishop's own. 1214 01:43:53.960 --> 01:43:58.079 See it's not a de facto autocratic move of the Bishop of Rome. 1215 01:43:58.520 --> 01:44:02.880 Appeals regarding these discipline matters were also made to Constantinople and to other seas. 1216 01:44:03.159 --> 01:44:06.960 The very thing I said in the Abarro debate when I debated Abarrow, which 1217 01:44:08.000 --> 01:44:11.159 they were all laughing at, but is right here. In their own Roman 1218 01:44:11.199 --> 01:44:15.119 documents, such appeals to seas were always treated in a synotical way. So 1219 01:44:15.159 --> 01:44:19.800 the very argument that Roman Catholics try to make is in this Roman Catholic papally 1220 01:44:19.800 --> 01:44:28.279 approved document admitted to be interpreted in the Orthodox view. I see, Okay, 1221 01:44:29.920 --> 01:44:35.279 yeah, if you read Sartica, it's retrial, it's not autocratic unilateral 1222 01:44:35.279 --> 01:44:43.159 operations, and and and and it admits that there's appeals were made to Constantinople. 1223 01:44:43.159 --> 01:44:45.600 And I think even Alexandria. I think even Athenacious. There's discussions of 1224 01:44:46.119 --> 01:44:53.880 appeals being made to Athenacious. Uh uh at Alexandri. So I brought that 1225 01:44:53.960 --> 01:44:56.439 up in the in the in the bar debate, and people were lacking, 1226 01:44:56.479 --> 01:45:00.520 like that's not true. It is true. Yeah, I did. I 1227 01:45:00.600 --> 01:45:02.840 never you know, it was tough for me to assent to Vatican One, 1228 01:45:03.079 --> 01:45:09.920 but it just I just could not see Rome as just being a primacy of 1229 01:45:09.960 --> 01:45:12.560 honor. I knew that it was more than that, but at the same 1230 01:45:12.600 --> 01:45:17.640 time, Vatican One was the language. In Vatican One. It's hard for 1231 01:45:17.640 --> 01:45:23.960 me to reconcile that with the well setting aside all these reconciliation of these ancient 1232 01:45:24.000 --> 01:45:28.039 documents, does it look like the present day Vatican has maintained the faith of 1233 01:45:28.039 --> 01:45:32.640 the ancient church praying in mosques towards Mecca? Uh? You know, It's 1234 01:45:32.840 --> 01:45:39.680 it's tough because I feel like liberalism is creeped into all churches. But this 1235 01:45:39.720 --> 01:45:43.319 is different because this is the Roman Church is built on the guy in Rome. 1236 01:45:44.039 --> 01:45:49.880 The Orthodox Church is not built on one. Dude. Yeah, but 1237 01:45:50.319 --> 01:45:55.560 ultimately, well, but do you believe in indefectibility? Right? Because I 1238 01:45:55.560 --> 01:46:00.359 mean the selling point of Rome is infallibility, indefectibility, solutions to crises, 1239 01:46:01.079 --> 01:46:06.000 preservation of unity. Do you believe that that's what Rome does? Do you 1240 01:46:06.079 --> 01:46:12.079 accept that we worship the same God as Muslims and Jews and Hindus. You 1241 01:46:12.479 --> 01:46:17.119 know, I I sent to the Vatican one teaching without fully understanding at this 1242 01:46:17.159 --> 01:46:21.880 point. That's really where this is Vatican two teaching though, Yeah, and 1243 01:46:23.000 --> 01:46:26.239 Vatican two obviously I have to so as a Catholic, I have to. 1244 01:46:26.680 --> 01:46:30.319 But I would say that I'm questioning it at this point. I'm trying to 1245 01:46:30.399 --> 01:46:33.600 like do my research. I just I've been on the fence for a while. 1246 01:46:33.680 --> 01:46:35.880 I understand. I mean I struggle with it too for a while. 1247 01:46:35.880 --> 01:46:41.920 I understand it. Guy throwing one thought, Tyler just something they considered. 1248 01:46:42.399 --> 01:46:45.159 Yeah, I mean, forget forgive me because I don't want this to sound 1249 01:46:45.159 --> 01:46:48.600 harsh. We obviously don't know each other, so this is not a personal 1250 01:46:48.600 --> 01:46:56.760 criticism or attack or anything like that. But it sounds very cultish. So 1251 01:46:56.840 --> 01:47:00.640 it's like you you get into arguments that don't make sense, that don't add 1252 01:47:00.720 --> 01:47:03.880 up. You don't like, you can't trust the things that you're seeing right 1253 01:47:03.880 --> 01:47:08.399 in front of your eyes, and then the response is like yeah, but 1254 01:47:08.479 --> 01:47:12.520 like I have to believe those things, and it's like that's not a good 1255 01:47:12.960 --> 01:47:15.720 that's not a good place to be. I've been Orthodox for seventeen years and 1256 01:47:16.640 --> 01:47:20.960 I literally can say I've never had that attitude, Like I've never I've never 1257 01:47:21.039 --> 01:47:26.039 stopped and thought, you know what, the church is doing something totally caddy 1258 01:47:26.079 --> 01:47:30.399 wampus that doesn't make any sense whatsoever, And I've just got to kind of 1259 01:47:30.399 --> 01:47:32.600 turn my brain off and just accept it. This is part of being Orthodox 1260 01:47:32.600 --> 01:47:35.960 that I have to kind of accept this type of behavior, you know what 1261 01:47:36.000 --> 01:47:41.399 I'm saying. So, yeah, that's that's true. But you would you 1262 01:47:41.439 --> 01:47:45.800 guys, how'd you guys feel about like female deacons. Well, it's not 1263 01:47:45.840 --> 01:47:49.920 even how we feel about female deacons. It's like you have a group in 1264 01:47:50.039 --> 01:47:56.239 Alexandria who's been making a lot of unilateral decisions in their own diocese. If 1265 01:47:56.279 --> 01:48:00.000 you actually understand what's going on there, they've had huge problems with their own 1266 01:48:00.079 --> 01:48:04.399 clergy, being upset with their local bishops because they're not listening to them right. 1267 01:48:04.439 --> 01:48:09.039 So there's a whole host of issues that are going on that were prior 1268 01:48:09.119 --> 01:48:13.560 to this, and then you have them quote unquote or dating a deaconess to 1269 01:48:13.800 --> 01:48:17.760 a role that has never existed historically within the church. But you know, 1270 01:48:18.039 --> 01:48:23.319 again, I don't have to say that I accept that, right. That's 1271 01:48:23.319 --> 01:48:27.720 the difference is that if I'm Roman Catholic and the Pope does all these catywampus 1272 01:48:27.760 --> 01:48:30.800 things, I have to say, well, I'm wrong, even though you 1273 01:48:30.840 --> 01:48:34.439 know what I'm saying, I'm wrong, even though it looks like what he's 1274 01:48:34.479 --> 01:48:41.239 doing is really wrong and heretical because he can't make the he can't make he 1275 01:48:41.279 --> 01:48:43.960 can't make bad decisions, he can't do bad things. And I think that's 1276 01:48:43.960 --> 01:48:45.399 the point that Jay's going back to, is like, look, since the 1277 01:48:45.439 --> 01:48:49.399 beginning of Christianity, there's been heretics in the church. That's that's not a 1278 01:48:49.520 --> 01:48:54.439 new This isn't like a new concept or something. The point being that when 1279 01:48:54.439 --> 01:48:59.319 you when everything relies upon papal decree and papal decision, you basically have to 1280 01:48:59.319 --> 01:49:02.560 turn your brain off to all kinds of wackadoodle things that literally, you know, 1281 01:49:02.720 --> 01:49:08.000 don't make any sense whatsoever. Father. That's an interesting point too, 1282 01:49:08.319 --> 01:49:12.359 Like we see a lot of this, especially the Roman Catholics, that when 1283 01:49:12.399 --> 01:49:16.840 a problem comes in, we're having obviously a problem in Alexandria, that happened, 1284 01:49:17.720 --> 01:49:23.000 that this is just unheard of in history. We've never seen well they 1285 01:49:23.119 --> 01:49:26.600 all have church history. Like well, it's like a gotcha moment, like 1286 01:49:26.600 --> 01:49:30.159 oh we got you, and we're like wow. So well we agree to 1287 01:49:30.199 --> 01:49:34.199 disagree, like we agree that it shouldn't have happened, and we agree with 1288 01:49:34.239 --> 01:49:38.760 the canons on why it shouldn't have happened. Right, the woman was not 1289 01:49:38.800 --> 01:49:42.119 a monastic, he's not forty years old, you know, like there's you 1290 01:49:42.159 --> 01:49:45.439 know, she's serving in a liturgical role that's never existed in the church. 1291 01:49:45.880 --> 01:49:48.920 Right, we can make that argument and we're not outside of the church or 1292 01:49:48.960 --> 01:49:54.239 in open rebellion or defiance or anything else for saying that. Yeah, I 1293 01:49:54.279 --> 01:49:57.520 think that the key, Oh that's your problem. Yeah, the key is 1294 01:49:57.560 --> 01:50:00.680 to see that it's not a question of who's got more or less liberalism. 1295 01:50:00.760 --> 01:50:06.000 It's not. That's not it. It's a question of which system has systemic 1296 01:50:06.199 --> 01:50:11.600 level problems that invalidate the system. That's the difference. So if you have 1297 01:50:11.640 --> 01:50:15.840 a decentralized church, which we would we would admit, for example, many 1298 01:50:15.880 --> 01:50:19.880 patriarchs of Constantinople in church history have been heretics. That doesn't that doesn't affect 1299 01:50:19.920 --> 01:50:25.560 the Orthodox worldview or ecclesiological structure. It's not a good thing. It's a 1300 01:50:25.560 --> 01:50:30.000 bad thing, but it's not like devastating to the system. If the Roman 1301 01:50:30.079 --> 01:50:35.560 See defects and teaches error for the church, then that's devastating to the system. 1302 01:50:35.640 --> 01:50:41.199 So this is two different it's different different types of problems determine whether the 1303 01:50:41.239 --> 01:50:44.479 system works or not. And I know, and I know this is going 1304 01:50:44.560 --> 01:50:48.000 to sound kind of silly or maybe trite to some people, but honestly, 1305 01:50:49.359 --> 01:50:54.720 a lot I feel like a lot of this stuff, honestly, it just 1306 01:50:54.760 --> 01:50:59.159 has to do with manhood. And there's this weird cope where you have to 1307 01:50:59.199 --> 01:51:04.399 be you have to be lockstep with the pope and he's like he's your defining 1308 01:51:04.479 --> 01:51:12.760 figure. It's a weird it's a weird anti masculine take. And beyond that, 1309 01:51:13.159 --> 01:51:15.680 when you talk about the systemic, you know, problems, it's like 1310 01:51:16.399 --> 01:51:21.319 the homosexuality amongst the clergy. I mean, this is not something we're making 1311 01:51:21.399 --> 01:51:26.279 up. This is something. I mean, I've heard from numerous Roman Catholics 1312 01:51:26.479 --> 01:51:28.600 who are like, yeah, you know, when so and so went to 1313 01:51:28.680 --> 01:51:31.800 seminary, all the you know, basically all the guys he was in seminary 1314 01:51:31.800 --> 01:51:38.880 with were all homosexual and this was a known thing I talk about my Eastern 1315 01:51:38.880 --> 01:51:44.399 Catholic priest. He mentioned that in seminary there's definitely a huge problem with homosexuality. 1316 01:51:44.800 --> 01:51:47.119 I mean, I mean, I mean, yeah, huge would be 1317 01:51:47.319 --> 01:51:54.199 almost an understatement with how it's like patistrophic. It's almost to the point where 1318 01:51:54.800 --> 01:52:00.279 it's literally just it's just active. The problem is too a lot of these 1319 01:52:00.319 --> 01:52:04.119 guys are active homosexual, Like it's not even it's not even that you're that 1320 01:52:04.199 --> 01:52:08.960 you're just getting homosexual. I'm not throwing a you know what I mean, 1321 01:52:09.000 --> 01:52:12.720 I'm not throwing shade at them. Obviously we know there were saints and holy 1322 01:52:12.800 --> 01:52:17.600 people within Orthodoxy who did things, but they are people who are active in 1323 01:52:17.640 --> 01:52:25.039 that participation of those activities, and that's where you're getting all your clergy from. 1324 01:52:25.600 --> 01:52:28.359 To me, it's like it's weird. I just I don't know why 1325 01:52:28.399 --> 01:52:30.520 people go, oh man, the you know what I really want to do 1326 01:52:30.560 --> 01:52:33.439 is go hang out with a bunch of gay priests and it's like, bro, 1327 01:52:34.119 --> 01:52:39.279 go to Orthodox, you get a bunch of you know, like you 1328 01:52:39.279 --> 01:52:42.159 know, you get a bunch of and I hate the word based, but 1329 01:52:42.239 --> 01:52:46.119 you get a lot of solid men who are married, those in queerdos, 1330 01:52:46.199 --> 01:52:50.960 you know, like they're just normal guys. Anyways, a little random. 1331 01:52:51.560 --> 01:52:54.439 I appreciate that. Yeah, I was. I was on the fence for 1332 01:52:54.520 --> 01:52:58.239 a very long time. I was even going to Father Josiah's parrish at Riversite. 1333 01:52:58.279 --> 01:53:02.399 And then I just felt like I needed to start partaking in the sacramental 1334 01:53:02.439 --> 01:53:06.520 life, even though I'm still like a student. So maybe I made a 1335 01:53:06.560 --> 01:53:11.560 quick judgment, but I just I thought that, like it's more important for 1336 01:53:12.319 --> 01:53:15.239 me to partake in the sacramental life. That's why I went Eastern Catholic, 1337 01:53:15.279 --> 01:53:20.640 because I saw Eastern as like the ultimate fence sitters basically. Yeah, but 1338 01:53:20.800 --> 01:53:25.479 and the problem, the problem with all that is is like you're being initiated 1339 01:53:25.560 --> 01:53:31.239 into something right, and so it's hard to be initiated into something period. 1340 01:53:31.439 --> 01:53:35.000 And as a man, you know, that's just that is part of the 1341 01:53:35.119 --> 01:53:39.399 process, you know. You know what I'm saying, Like I lift weights 1342 01:53:39.439 --> 01:53:41.720 and I've got a couple of guys who live weights with me at my house. 1343 01:53:42.279 --> 01:53:46.039 Nobody shows up on day one and impresses everybody. That's okay, nobody's 1344 01:53:46.079 --> 01:53:49.720 gonna put you down for doing that. But what we're looking for is effort, 1345 01:53:49.760 --> 01:53:55.800 integrity over time to prove yourself as being part of the group. That's 1346 01:53:55.840 --> 01:54:01.600 a normal masculine experience of being with other men. And anybody who goes, 1347 01:54:01.680 --> 01:54:04.960 Okay, hey, you came to church for one month and now I'm going 1348 01:54:05.000 --> 01:54:09.479 to commune you, it's like that's a bunk. I mean, I just 1349 01:54:09.479 --> 01:54:12.039 like, as a priest, I'm like, how can you even fetch somebody 1350 01:54:12.039 --> 01:54:15.800 in a month or three months or a week? I mean Candas Owens, 1351 01:54:15.039 --> 01:54:17.560 you know, the irony Like Candas Owens is just like, oh, I 1352 01:54:17.600 --> 01:54:21.640 wanted to become Catholic, and so now I'm Catholic. It's like, where's 1353 01:54:21.680 --> 01:54:28.039 your catechumanship, Like where's your instructions? Where's your renunciations? Like how do 1354 01:54:28.119 --> 01:54:31.399 you know in the Early Church for three years? It took three years to 1355 01:54:31.439 --> 01:54:35.119 become a Christian in the Early Church, and now we've reduced it in the 1356 01:54:35.159 --> 01:54:40.239 modern Orthodox Church till like a year, which I'm still not even convinced is 1357 01:54:40.359 --> 01:54:45.239 enough. And now you've got modern Catholicism where it's like a matter of weeks 1358 01:54:45.279 --> 01:54:48.560 or months or days whatever else, Like how can a person be transformed? 1359 01:54:48.840 --> 01:54:53.319 And maybe that's part of the reason why so many people who are Roman Catholic 1360 01:54:53.399 --> 01:54:57.800 don't actually follow or even believe in the dogmas. So I don't know, 1361 01:54:57.880 --> 01:55:01.439 sorry forgive my rant. Uh, yeah, I appreciate it. And Tyler 1362 01:55:01.520 --> 01:55:03.760 or not Trey, We're gonna have to move on because we've got a lot 1363 01:55:03.760 --> 01:55:06.399 of people. But a great question, Tyler, thank you appreciate that. 1364 01:55:08.680 --> 01:55:12.239 Let's say we got another Tyler. So Tyler Manino, what's up Tyler? 1365 01:55:12.920 --> 01:55:15.279 And by the way, before Tyler, before you go, we had a 1366 01:55:15.279 --> 01:55:18.880 super chat here asking a question. Noah emphasays for three dollars. Jay I 1367 01:55:18.920 --> 01:55:23.600 asked this earlier. It might have been missed. Bishop Alexander Galitzen is my 1368 01:55:23.640 --> 01:55:27.319 bishop. I met him recently before my baptism. While he does think that 1369 01:55:27.399 --> 01:55:30.159 Origin led in an exemplary life, he told me that he defers to the 1370 01:55:30.199 --> 01:55:33.920 Fifth actumn Ocal Council and does not believe in universal salvation. Now, the 1371 01:55:34.199 --> 01:55:39.760 issue was not whether he believed in the universal Salvation, but whether Bishop Glitzen 1372 01:55:40.199 --> 01:55:44.000 said that Origin is a saint, and in the Orthodox Church, a saint 1373 01:55:44.039 --> 01:55:48.079 is a person who's experienced uncreated light and has lived a holy life. Origin 1374 01:55:48.279 --> 01:55:53.000 is not a person that we believe experienced that, nor did he lead a 1375 01:55:53.039 --> 01:55:56.880 holy life. He was excommunicated from the church, and so his own state 1376 01:55:58.159 --> 01:56:05.399 lunch was from Origin of a Sandria. They're great, very great patristic writer. 1377 01:56:05.560 --> 01:56:09.760 He was not appreciated. Three hundred years later. They condemned him as 1378 01:56:09.760 --> 01:56:12.960 a heretic after he had died in the peace of the church three hundred years 1379 01:56:13.640 --> 01:56:20.560 which was wrong. But he was still a saint. So there you go. 1380 01:56:20.720 --> 01:56:25.439 So the question is not does he teach universalism? The question is does 1381 01:56:25.479 --> 01:56:30.119 he believe that the councils and the church fathers were wrong in condemning Origin. 1382 01:56:30.159 --> 01:56:32.439 He clearly says that that was wrong, and he believes that he is a 1383 01:56:32.479 --> 01:56:38.000 saint. So it's not about universalism. And Origin is not a saint and 1384 01:56:38.039 --> 01:56:43.560 he did not live rightly. Go ahead, Tyler. Yeah, So I 1385 01:56:43.800 --> 01:56:45.800 just you know, I want to say from the offset that I think, 1386 01:56:45.880 --> 01:56:50.880 unfortunately a lot of Catholics are poorly catechized, and you know, a lot 1387 01:56:50.920 --> 01:56:56.119 of them don't a lot of them just don't know a lot about the history 1388 01:56:56.119 --> 01:57:00.359 of the Church and don't understand a lot of aspects about it. But I'll 1389 01:57:00.399 --> 01:57:03.239 try a little bit of a Socratic method here. I think it's we can 1390 01:57:03.279 --> 01:57:08.960 all agree that there is no such thing as a perfect church, right because 1391 01:57:09.039 --> 01:57:12.800 humans are not in general, humans are not infallible. Well, well, 1392 01:57:12.800 --> 01:57:15.920 hold on, so when we say perfect, we don't mean morally. But 1393 01:57:16.439 --> 01:57:21.960 both Orthodox and Catholics profess to believe that the churches that they adhere to do 1394 01:57:23.000 --> 01:57:28.279 not officially teach error, so they're not theologically in error. But my point 1395 01:57:28.359 --> 01:57:30.520 is is that you know, we're all humans, so we all make mistakes, 1396 01:57:30.600 --> 01:57:35.199 and clearly throughout every single religion, both Catholic and Orthodox, there have 1397 01:57:35.279 --> 01:57:42.520 been heretics, right, sure, Yeah, So therefore I think it's possible 1398 01:57:42.600 --> 01:57:47.720 that you know, a church can be let's say, ninety nine percent correct 1399 01:57:48.199 --> 01:57:51.600 on certain things, but then because of human error, there are some times 1400 01:57:51.640 --> 01:57:56.439 when it screws up and where there have been corrupt probes, and a lot 1401 01:57:56.479 --> 01:58:00.079 of Catholics, myself included, believe that this current pope is and I don't 1402 01:58:00.079 --> 01:58:04.600 think that even though you know, the church teaches people and fallibility, I 1403 01:58:05.079 --> 01:58:11.359 don't think that's correct and I don't think that's a necessary thing to believe for 1404 01:58:11.479 --> 01:58:14.760 salvation. Okay, Well, Vatican One, which trumps you, says that 1405 01:58:14.840 --> 01:58:16.640 it is necessary for salvation. It says that the Roman seed does not teach 1406 01:58:16.720 --> 01:58:19.720 error, cannot teach air, and never will. So you have to submit 1407 01:58:19.760 --> 01:58:23.600 to that. You don't get the right in the liberty as a Roman Catholic 1408 01:58:23.600 --> 01:58:28.199 to pick and choose dogmas and ecumenical councils. No, of course, what 1409 01:58:28.319 --> 01:58:32.319 is it possible that dogma's and ecumenical councils were made in error? If so, 1410 01:58:32.479 --> 01:58:36.279 then the Romancolic Church is not true. Look like I said, it's 1411 01:58:38.199 --> 01:58:41.720 ninety nine percent accurate. No, because the claim, the claim about the 1412 01:58:41.800 --> 01:58:45.600 church is that it never airs, not that it's right nine percent of the 1413 01:58:45.600 --> 01:58:49.560 time, but that it provides the individual Roman Catholic the certitude to trust the 1414 01:58:49.680 --> 01:58:53.720 Church that it will never air. If there's a one percent chance that it 1415 01:58:53.800 --> 01:58:56.760 might be airing, it might be airing in this statement or the next statement 1416 01:58:56.880 --> 01:59:00.680 or the next statement. So you see why it's a totalizing system and a 1417 01:59:00.760 --> 01:59:04.640 totalizing claim. Yeah, but my point is that claim itself could be the 1418 01:59:04.680 --> 01:59:10.920 exact error. Well, then Romaicasa is not true. That's all we need. 1419 01:59:10.960 --> 01:59:14.920 It only takes one to invalidate the system. So do you do you 1420 01:59:14.960 --> 01:59:18.800 think that orthodoxy is completely perfect and that does not teach any errors? Whatsoever. 1421 01:59:19.039 --> 01:59:26.520 Yes, Okay, see, I think that it's close to impossible for 1422 01:59:26.680 --> 01:59:30.319 us to know for sure, which is exactly correct. I think it's possible 1423 01:59:30.319 --> 01:59:36.520 to get like, well, do you know that with certitude? No? 1424 01:59:36.520 --> 01:59:40.000 No, of course, there's no way for us to know for a fact. 1425 01:59:40.680 --> 01:59:43.319 No, I'm asking do you know? I'm asking do you know that 1426 01:59:43.439 --> 01:59:46.920 statement with certitude? Because that's your starting point presupposition, So for that to 1427 01:59:47.000 --> 01:59:50.279 work, you would have to have certitude about that starting point. I'm asking 1428 01:59:50.359 --> 02:00:00.000 you if that presupposition is correct with certitude? Could you repeat that we all 1429 02:00:00.119 --> 02:00:02.560 only have ninety nine percent certitude? Let's say that was your starting point. 1430 02:00:02.680 --> 02:00:09.600 I'm asking if that proposition is certain for you. I'm not saying that's sortain, 1431 02:00:09.640 --> 02:00:13.319 but I'm s well, then that's self reputing. How is that self 1432 02:00:13.359 --> 02:00:15.720 refuting them? Because you've got to have something to start with that's certain, 1433 02:00:17.680 --> 02:00:23.640 right, So I'm saying that I think it's possible for us to be You 1434 02:00:23.720 --> 02:00:28.279 missed all You just missed the whole point. So you have a starting point 1435 02:00:28.319 --> 02:00:32.680 that you believe is certain. It is your belief that nobody's certain and everything 1436 02:00:32.840 --> 02:00:36.600 is ninety nine percent certain. For this to work, you've got to be 1437 02:00:36.640 --> 02:00:41.239 certain about that starting point. And do you not see how that's inconsistent? 1438 02:00:43.840 --> 02:00:45.439 Yeah, I think that what you're getting at. But at this point, 1439 02:00:45.520 --> 02:00:49.760 I mean, that's just that's just arguing logic, which I understand what you're 1440 02:00:49.760 --> 02:00:55.079 trying to do here, but I mean, the thing is weird because so 1441 02:00:55.319 --> 02:00:58.439 logic doesn't matter anymore. So if it's no, logic does matter. But 1442 02:00:58.520 --> 02:01:03.399 we so Catholics everything, So don't change the subject. We're on the key 1443 02:01:03.439 --> 02:01:08.039 point of our starting points. Because I'm not a Roman Catholic, I believe 1444 02:01:08.079 --> 02:01:12.239 that your starting point is going to determine everything. You have a relativistic starting 1445 02:01:12.279 --> 02:01:15.479 point. So how do you know that that's true or that that your starting 1446 02:01:15.520 --> 02:01:19.439 point is right? Well, because I believe that the Catholic Church is the 1447 02:01:19.479 --> 02:01:24.720 closest to the original. But how do you know that though, because your 1448 02:01:24.720 --> 02:01:30.159 starting point is it self fallible? Right No, through I think through through 1449 02:01:30.000 --> 02:01:35.319 people's own research, and through disarment spiritual I think that'll hold on. So 1450 02:01:35.399 --> 02:01:39.800 our people are wrong sometimes right, So ultimately it's not the pope or the 1451 02:01:39.880 --> 02:01:42.960 Roman Catholicy Church, it's you. It's the final authority in this system. 1452 02:01:43.119 --> 02:01:45.640 Right. No, I don't agree with that I think it has to be 1453 02:01:45.960 --> 02:01:49.960 in communion with scripture. No, no, no, but but but you 1454 02:01:50.239 --> 02:01:55.479 this is your interpretation of this, that's my point. And you're saying that, 1455 02:01:55.520 --> 02:01:58.920 well, uh, maybe Vatican one is wrong and I don't like this. 1456 02:01:58.960 --> 02:02:01.479 I'm gonna take this. So it's you constructing the Roman Catholicism that you 1457 02:02:01.520 --> 02:02:05.479 want, that's your system. No, I'm in search of the truth. 1458 02:02:05.560 --> 02:02:10.439 I'm trying to find the truth. Yeah. But you're saying, is that 1459 02:02:10.520 --> 02:02:14.119 in the search for the truth, it is possible for things that we've formally 1460 02:02:14.119 --> 02:02:16.039 thought were true to be false, or things that we formally thought to be 1461 02:02:16.079 --> 02:02:19.119 false we're true. Okay. So that's why I went to your starting point, 1462 02:02:19.399 --> 02:02:24.399 which was ultimately relativistic, your first principle that you're using. I'm not 1463 02:02:24.439 --> 02:02:28.920 assuming anything. I'm saying everyone you are, though. Everyone assumes things. 1464 02:02:29.000 --> 02:02:34.880 Everybody has presubsitions unavoidable. Okay, that's fair. How do you know you 1465 02:02:34.960 --> 02:02:41.319 have the right starting point? Is the question? Well, I guess technically 1466 02:02:41.319 --> 02:02:43.960 does does anyone know that? Really? Okay, so you're a relativist, 1467 02:02:44.000 --> 02:02:45.560 that's my point. No, I'm not a relative. How are you not? 1468 02:02:46.479 --> 02:02:53.880 How are you not? That's what you're arguing basically what No, I'm 1469 02:02:53.920 --> 02:02:57.199 not what are you talking about? Why would I be a relatives? I'm 1470 02:02:57.239 --> 02:03:00.800 just asking you your position. Everyone has that right. My position is born 1471 02:03:00.800 --> 02:03:04.000 and raised Roman Catholic. No, No, okay, why the position's true? 1472 02:03:04.000 --> 02:03:06.680 I know what your position is. I'm asking why the position is true, 1473 02:03:06.720 --> 02:03:13.000 and it sounds relativistic. Your response is no, because I found through 1474 02:03:13.039 --> 02:03:15.720 my own search, through my own struggles with my own faith, and through 1475 02:03:16.119 --> 02:03:20.720 trying to do as much research as possible to discover the truth, and through 1476 02:03:20.800 --> 02:03:25.920 spiritual discernment through prayer. How do you know you're discerning right? Maybe you're 1477 02:03:25.920 --> 02:03:34.439 discerning wrong. Well I'm pretty I'm pretty sure I was discerning correctly. But 1478 02:03:34.520 --> 02:03:38.880 this could this? I mean this could this is a circular argument. I 1479 02:03:38.880 --> 02:03:41.319 mean that could go that's right. Now. My point is to show that 1480 02:03:41.359 --> 02:03:45.279 and illustrate that it is circum that's correct. I agree that was my point. 1481 02:03:45.399 --> 02:03:51.920 But your point could then your point could be that at like everything see 1482 02:03:51.960 --> 02:03:57.399 that your point could be then nothing matters. And essentially what you're saying, 1483 02:03:57.479 --> 02:04:00.199 no, I'm just saying that the Roman Catholic position and it's astemology leads to 1484 02:04:00.239 --> 02:04:05.199 these dead ends because you're trying to make a system that doesn't make sense work, 1485 02:04:05.680 --> 02:04:09.720 and that's why you're led to these conclusions, is my point. No, 1486 02:04:09.880 --> 02:04:15.279 I don't think that the Catholic Church solely based on the table infallibility. 1487 02:04:15.359 --> 02:04:21.359 I don't think that specific doctrine is the entire basis for the church. I 1488 02:04:21.399 --> 02:04:27.119 don't. But it doesn't matter what you think, because Vatican One trumps you, 1489 02:04:27.560 --> 02:04:30.920 and you don't get to interpret these documents the way you want to. 1490 02:04:30.960 --> 02:04:35.640 You have to interpret them the way Rome interprets them. But that's not the 1491 02:04:35.640 --> 02:04:40.239 core of the faith, though it is according to Rome. According to Rome, 1492 02:04:40.279 --> 02:04:43.000 it is. So you don't get to say that. Do you not 1493 02:04:43.119 --> 02:04:45.359 understand that it's not a system. You're not a Protestant. You don't get 1494 02:04:45.399 --> 02:04:49.239 to construct the Roman Catholic system the way you want to. No, and 1495 02:04:49.920 --> 02:04:55.359 I'm not claiming to do so, but you are doing. You are doing 1496 02:04:55.399 --> 02:04:59.960 that before everyone. That is exactly what you're doing. Because you just say, 1497 02:05:00.199 --> 02:05:02.119 I don't care what Vatican one says. I can choose to not believe 1498 02:05:02.119 --> 02:05:05.000 that one. I didn't say that I didn't care what Vatican one says. 1499 02:05:05.319 --> 02:05:09.840 You said it could be wrong or whatever you said. It is possible for 1500 02:05:09.960 --> 02:05:14.600 human beings to make mistakes. Then you don't believe in the guidance of the 1501 02:05:14.640 --> 02:05:17.159 Patrian Sea, with the Keroism of Peter and all that that Vatican One teaches. 1502 02:05:17.199 --> 02:05:23.479 So you don't believe the Romancallic Church is teaching. But you yourself just 1503 02:05:23.520 --> 02:05:28.039 said that that every religion has had heretics, that even Orthodox he had. 1504 02:05:28.159 --> 02:05:30.840 So having a heretic is not the same thing. Having a heretic in the 1505 02:05:30.880 --> 02:05:35.199 religion is not the same thing as a fundamental contradiction in the theology and the 1506 02:05:35.199 --> 02:05:42.880 dogma of the religion. Two different things. Okay, I can see your 1507 02:05:42.880 --> 02:05:48.680 point with that. Okay, fair enough. I appreciate that. All right, 1508 02:05:48.680 --> 02:05:53.560 we're gonna move on. Not trying to be rude, but good exchange. 1509 02:05:53.600 --> 02:05:57.439 I appreciate that we didn't get you know, we handled it in a 1510 02:05:57.439 --> 02:06:14.079 civil way. Ignacio Gonna, I'm mute. Yeah. So I was watching 1511 02:06:15.079 --> 02:06:19.319 Catholic Apologetic channel the other day and I asked a question, you know, 1512 02:06:19.399 --> 02:06:27.000 that I was choosing either Eastern uh to being Eastern Catholic or Orthodox, and 1513 02:06:27.079 --> 02:06:34.800 they mentioned that I should choose Catholicism because Orthodoxy was the one that that actually 1514 02:06:35.640 --> 02:06:44.640 changed their teachings in that supposedly they accepted a meical conception, and no, 1515 02:06:45.439 --> 02:06:49.039 the amcular conception is a very late Roman Catholic dogma. How could the Orthodox 1516 02:06:49.079 --> 02:06:55.920 accept that when the dogmatization of that is far after the schism. That makes 1517 02:06:55.960 --> 02:06:59.800 no sense. So, uh, the Orthodox Church says that she's the spotless 1518 02:06:59.880 --> 02:07:05.520 Verse, but the word spotless virgin doesn't translate into immaculate conception. And also 1519 02:07:05.600 --> 02:07:14.199 that Orthodoxy has accepted Philiokley and then for some reason they okay, yeah, 1520 02:07:14.239 --> 02:07:17.520 I'll just make sure. Yeah, I mean, the Palomite Synods are all 1521 02:07:17.560 --> 02:07:25.079 premised on rejecting that. So you could read the Palomite Synods in the Norman 1522 02:07:25.159 --> 02:07:35.840 Russell book, or you could read Saint Gregory Palamas's book Epidict the Treatise on 1523 02:07:35.880 --> 02:07:39.920 the Holy Spirit, which is published in English now, So those things will 1524 02:07:39.920 --> 02:07:45.800 show you that, no, we don't accept the Philioqui probably talking about Florence. 1525 02:07:45.439 --> 02:07:47.800 So Roman Catholic should to argue that, oh, well, you had 1526 02:07:48.000 --> 02:07:51.960 several bishops that accepted Florence, so what not all of them did? We 1527 02:07:53.039 --> 02:07:57.439 don't have this like, oh, if you get three Orthodox bishops, then 1528 02:07:58.079 --> 02:08:01.560 you know your whole thing folds. No, it's a mark of Ephesus did 1529 02:08:01.560 --> 02:08:07.199 not accept it, and when they took the decree of union back, the 1530 02:08:07.239 --> 02:08:11.479 rest of the church booed them and three tomatoes at them and rejected it. 1531 02:08:11.560 --> 02:08:13.760 So, no, we did not accept Florence. And then you could read 1532 02:08:13.760 --> 02:08:31.239 the Austro mob book on the Council Florence Demetrio's Jim, Hello, Yeah, 1533 02:08:31.279 --> 02:08:37.880 what's up? My question is what would be your thoughts Would you consider it 1534 02:08:37.920 --> 02:08:43.960 to be heretical or would Orthodoxy consider it to be heretical to take a pretorist 1535 02:08:45.239 --> 02:08:50.960 slash postmillennial position, you know, concerning the Book of Revelations. That is 1536 02:08:50.960 --> 02:08:54.720 to say, we'd be saying, like, you know, these predictions happened 1537 02:08:54.760 --> 02:08:58.640 in our path. We're living in the Kingdom, you know. No, 1538 02:08:58.720 --> 02:09:05.920 I think I think partial preterism is what's taught by Athenatious, by Saint Cyril. 1539 02:09:05.960 --> 02:09:09.560 It's taught by John crystalstom clear as Day and his homilyesa on Luke twenty 1540 02:09:09.560 --> 02:09:13.560 one in Matthew twenty four. Yeah, so no, I don't. But 1541 02:09:15.319 --> 02:09:20.640 there might be elements of post millennialism that some orthodox might disagree with. I 1542 02:09:20.680 --> 02:09:28.439 don't think that it's I don't see anything necessarily on orthodox in post mill that's 1543 02:09:28.479 --> 02:09:35.039 a pretty it's a pretty uh you know, happy optimistic position as far as 1544 02:09:35.119 --> 02:09:41.039 you know, combining you know, futurists or all those four categories versus I 1545 02:09:41.079 --> 02:09:43.920 used to be right, so I come out of the reconstruction as bonds and 1546 02:09:43.000 --> 02:09:46.640 rush uni sphere. I used to be into that, so I'm familiar. 1547 02:09:46.720 --> 02:09:50.239 Yeah, yeah, So so I wouldn't be considered if I were to say, 1548 02:09:50.279 --> 02:09:54.399 hey, we're living in the millennium now, should has happened? Should 1549 02:09:54.399 --> 02:09:56.880 have still happened? In CHRISTI is coming back, but you know, we're 1550 02:09:58.039 --> 02:10:03.319 just you know, Jesus is putting everybody you know at his footstool sort of 1551 02:10:03.319 --> 02:10:07.640 speaking. Well. Another possibility is, yeah, I mean, we'd believe 1552 02:10:07.720 --> 02:10:13.520 those things for sure. Another possibility is that Roumans eleven that when the Jews 1553 02:10:13.560 --> 02:10:16.920 convert whenever that is, and Paul says that they will convert the rest of 1554 02:10:16.960 --> 02:10:20.199 the world. It seems to be the terminology of Romans eleven. That might 1555 02:10:20.479 --> 02:10:26.880 be something that happens quick. So you could potentially have whenever that is a 1556 02:10:26.720 --> 02:10:33.199 something that's fast that fulfills a lot of those quote post millennial prophecies such that 1557 02:10:33.319 --> 02:10:39.520 it doesn't then require like you know, ten thousand years for the earth, 1558 02:10:39.680 --> 02:10:41.720 but then again you might have another ten thousand years. So I don't think 1559 02:10:41.720 --> 02:10:46.079 there's any I think that we would say these are the Laugumina. Okay. 1560 02:10:46.359 --> 02:10:54.159 And then another quick question is concerning the Council of for Florence. Now again 1561 02:10:54.279 --> 02:10:56.560 just to get your thoughts on this. You know, there was as many 1562 02:10:56.600 --> 02:11:01.960 bishops from the Eastern Church as there bears were at any other councils for that 1563 02:11:03.000 --> 02:11:09.520 matter. At the end of that council, obviously they became union again on 1564 02:11:09.640 --> 02:11:13.239 paper, uh right, but not all of them did. Saint Mark of 1565 02:11:13.319 --> 02:11:18.079 Evesins is the saint precisely because he didn't. And you can read the Oustromov 1566 02:11:18.119 --> 02:11:22.079 book on the history of Florence. Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely definitely, 1567 02:11:22.119 --> 02:11:24.760 but uh yeah, we're not, but we're not. We're not papists, 1568 02:11:24.800 --> 02:11:28.840 right, So, like there's no like magical number of like oh, 1569 02:11:28.960 --> 02:11:33.720 if you get you know, five bishops to who are heretics, then we've 1570 02:11:33.720 --> 02:11:35.960 won. That's the whole church, right. So Roman Catholics are always thinking 1571 02:11:35.960 --> 02:11:41.000 in terms of like these like gotcha numbers, Like well, if I can 1572 02:11:41.039 --> 02:11:45.880 get you know, three or four patriarchs, if I can get you know 1573 02:11:46.560 --> 02:11:50.520 this many number of bishops, Like, we don't do the numbers game, 1574 02:11:50.560 --> 02:11:54.119 Like there's no numbers game that like proves or disproves the totality of the church. 1575 02:11:54.239 --> 02:11:58.600 That's all Roman Catholic attitude. No, yeah, I wasn't concerned with 1576 02:11:58.640 --> 02:12:01.880 that. Mainly, I was concerned with you know, it was ecumenical council. 1577 02:12:01.239 --> 02:12:07.439 There was agreement, were signed, not an ecumenical council. So it's 1578 02:12:07.479 --> 02:12:11.920 not gonna we don't, well, the Orthodox Church as a consider it an 1579 02:12:11.960 --> 02:12:15.920 ecumenical council. But I'm saying it's only an ecumenical council if you're a papist, 1580 02:12:15.960 --> 02:12:22.640 correct, But in the general uh layout of previous it's not acumenical because 1581 02:12:22.680 --> 02:12:28.840 oikumenae means accepted by the empire, so they're in both Roman Catholic and Orthodox 1582 02:12:28.880 --> 02:12:33.039 theology. There's the idea of acceptance that eventually occurs. So for us, 1583 02:12:33.079 --> 02:12:39.279 there's no like immediate magical thing that makes something quote an ecumenical council. That's 1584 02:12:39.319 --> 02:12:43.000 why after the ocumenae goes away, we have what's called pan Orthodox synods that 1585 02:12:43.039 --> 02:12:48.920 are accepted throughout the entire Orthodox world, like the Palms. So in order 1586 02:12:48.920 --> 02:12:52.920 for a council to be legitimate, it requires more than just the acceptance of 1587 02:12:52.960 --> 02:12:56.560 the bishops. And I mean yeah, because there have been Robert Synods. 1588 02:12:56.560 --> 02:13:03.119 Correct. Okay, so the only thing I would I would, uh, 1589 02:13:03.720 --> 02:13:09.039 we're we're well, I guess that doesn't matter. I was gonna say, 1590 02:13:09.039 --> 02:13:16.439 we're excommunications given post the council of Yes, absolutely, yeah, all those 1591 02:13:16.439 --> 02:13:22.720 people were considered traders. So they came back and they're like, yeah, 1592 02:13:22.760 --> 02:13:26.239 we signed on paper. But then there it's just what Yeah they were, 1593 02:13:26.520 --> 02:13:31.000 Yeah, they were called traders and had tomatoes thrown at them. But isn't 1594 02:13:31.039 --> 02:13:35.319 it wouldn't it be heretical to say we're changing the the outcome of this ecumenical 1595 02:13:35.399 --> 02:13:39.840 council. It's only an acumenical council on papal prerogative. So you just keep 1596 02:13:39.880 --> 02:13:45.399 assuming the papal perspective and saying, well, it's an ecumenical council. But 1597 02:13:45.479 --> 02:13:50.039 why what what do you think makes something an ecumenical council? Well, i'd 1598 02:13:50.079 --> 02:13:52.520 be Double's advocate here obviously, have a full disclosure. I am orthodox, 1599 02:13:52.560 --> 02:13:54.800 so you can tell by my Greek name probably, but like you know, 1600 02:13:54.880 --> 02:13:58.840 the the I'm being Devil's advocates saying like, you know, the patriarchs signed 1601 02:13:58.880 --> 02:14:01.840 it, multiple bishops sign it. At the end of the council, everyone 1602 02:14:01.880 --> 02:14:05.640 signed it. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit. It's law, we 1603 02:14:05.760 --> 02:14:07.600 go bad. Not all of the pat not all the patriarch has signed it. 1604 02:14:07.640 --> 02:14:11.600 That's not true, well not all, but as much as I mean, 1605 02:14:11.640 --> 02:14:16.359 there's people that rejected in ecumenical councilors that were legitimate to the Eastern orthodoxray 1606 02:14:16.479 --> 02:14:20.159 Okay. So my point is that there's nothing about a council itself that magically 1607 02:14:20.199 --> 02:14:24.720 makes it binding authoritative, because there have been many false councils, as even 1608 02:14:24.800 --> 02:14:30.119 Roman Catholics admit. So if we're gonna go with the papal approach, we've 1609 02:14:30.119 --> 02:14:33.840 got a whole host of other problems, namely, why isn't Laterans six forty 1610 02:14:33.920 --> 02:14:37.520 nine and acumenical council It should be, according to Roman Catholics, And yet 1611 02:14:37.560 --> 02:14:41.560 no Roman Catholic council that has an acamical council. Oh yeah, I definitely 1612 02:14:41.560 --> 02:14:45.199 see that privacy, There are no doubt, but I'm wondering if there's if 1613 02:14:45.239 --> 02:14:50.840 there's you know, so when Constantinople fell, officially we were union correctly, 1614 02:14:50.159 --> 02:14:54.880 right, okay, and people you know, and uh. And Roman Catholics 1615 02:14:54.880 --> 02:14:58.840 don't mention that, by the way, when they make their curse arguments. 1616 02:14:58.359 --> 02:15:01.359 Yeah, well other curses that that they they say that, yeah, we've 1617 02:15:01.399 --> 02:15:05.359 said it on paper, but we brought it back and we're heretical because we 1618 02:15:05.479 --> 02:15:09.039 let the late late people say we don't want this, and they refers the 1619 02:15:09.079 --> 02:15:13.680 decisions of an Yeah, but the Orthodox Church doesn't. It's not this clerical 1620 02:15:13.680 --> 02:15:18.359 worship church where the laity doesn't have a role. The laity has a role. 1621 02:15:18.439 --> 02:15:24.039 For example, the Iconic class current controversy would have prevailed because the majority 1622 02:15:24.079 --> 02:15:28.720 of the important bishoprics and sees were Iconoclasts. And the reason they Iconic class 1623 02:15:28.720 --> 02:15:35.319 lost was because monastics and laity, Yeah, you know, the ones that 1624 02:15:35.520 --> 02:15:39.279 bring up the you know, the the union part of constant. In other 1625 02:15:39.279 --> 02:15:41.920 words, we were cursed because we were you know, uh, you know, 1626 02:15:43.199 --> 02:15:46.880 refused that econ medical consols, so to speak, according to Catholics. 1627 02:15:46.880 --> 02:15:52.600 And it's interesting that the trad Catholics are like the most that like don't accept 1628 02:15:52.640 --> 02:15:54.720 Vatican two are like we're like wait a second, bro, Like you're like 1629 02:15:54.760 --> 02:15:58.960 more like, oh well yeah, but see when when you bring up curses 1630 02:15:58.960 --> 02:16:01.840 about that kind of stuff, then it becomes proof that they're the true Church 1631 02:16:01.920 --> 02:16:05.680 because they're persecuted. So that's called moving the goalpost exactly, Joe Enders, 1632 02:16:05.720 --> 02:16:20.119 what's up, man? Yeah, I'm mute. Yeah, what's up? 1633 02:16:20.199 --> 02:16:24.760 Jay? So I'm not going to argue with you because I honestly don't know 1634 02:16:24.800 --> 02:16:26.520 the material well enough. But I want to start studying the material so at 1635 02:16:26.600 --> 02:16:30.239 least I can get your perspective before I go and study the material. I 1636 02:16:30.279 --> 02:16:33.639 hope that's okay with you. Okay, Yeah, So I just you've brought 1637 02:16:33.680 --> 02:16:37.360 up something specifically, and you bring this up a lot in your videos. 1638 02:16:37.360 --> 02:16:39.399 You talk a lot about Vatican One. Now, what specifically is the hypocrisy 1639 02:16:39.440 --> 02:16:43.360 that you were trying to point out in Vatican One that Catholics can't see the 1640 02:16:43.399 --> 02:16:48.000 answer. Well, there's multiple ways that that argument could be formulated, depending 1641 02:16:48.079 --> 02:16:52.239 upon whether we're talking about a novus orto person that accepts Vatican two or a 1642 02:16:52.280 --> 02:16:56.559 track cat that doesn't like Vatican two. Novasorto obviously, just to do a 1643 02:16:56.559 --> 02:17:05.200 regular Catholic argument, well, again, it depends on like I've talked about 1644 02:17:05.239 --> 02:17:09.840 Vatican one a lot, so you know, it could be I could be 1645 02:17:09.959 --> 02:17:15.760 arguing that Vatican one contradicts the Canons of the First Seven Councils in the way 1646 02:17:15.799 --> 02:17:18.920 that it approaches things. I could be arguing that a lot of Roman Catholics, 1647 02:17:18.920 --> 02:17:24.120 for example, say I only have to believe the ex cathedral statements, 1648 02:17:24.159 --> 02:17:26.520 which is not true. You have to believe much more than that, such 1649 02:17:26.559 --> 02:17:31.600 as the Pope's universal ordinary teaching, as well as submitting to his ordinary teaching, 1650 02:17:31.639 --> 02:17:35.920 which is even fallible. You still have to submit with docility. So 1651 02:17:35.639 --> 02:17:39.319 I make a lot of arguments in that regard. So I could be talking 1652 02:17:39.319 --> 02:17:43.079 about any of these things. Well, yeah, no, So specifically what 1653 02:17:43.120 --> 02:17:46.760 I was I think I believe it was regarding the regarding the catheter statements, 1654 02:17:46.760 --> 02:17:50.040 which, honestly, like as as you know a quote unquote Popal planner, 1655 02:17:50.079 --> 02:17:54.120 I probably agree with your reading of Vatican one. So that's what I was 1656 02:17:54.120 --> 02:17:58.360 asking. Okay, so so what so at that point I was probably arguing, 1657 02:18:01.760 --> 02:18:09.920 where is the list of ex cathedral Where is the list of ex cathedra 1658 02:18:09.959 --> 02:18:18.040 statements? Oh, I don't know, there's not one. That's your point 1659 02:18:18.079 --> 02:18:22.159 is that there isn't a list of ex cathedral statements. So because there isn't 1660 02:18:22.159 --> 02:18:26.680 a list of ex cathedra statements, well, that's one point. Why why 1661 02:18:26.680 --> 02:18:30.000 wouldn't I mean, I thought that the papacy is there to help us understand 1662 02:18:30.040 --> 02:18:33.319 and know certitude and all this. Why wouldn't they give us some list of 1663 02:18:33.360 --> 02:18:37.879 these things? If that's your sort of like Trump argument, kills shot against 1664 02:18:37.920 --> 02:18:43.360 pretty much everybody else Protestants, right, I mean, like I said, 1665 02:18:43.399 --> 02:18:46.559 I don't know. I'm looking into it. I'm going to look into the 1666 02:18:46.639 --> 02:18:50.920 arguments right now. I don't really think that that's the strongest argument that you 1667 02:18:50.120 --> 02:18:54.200 well, it's one argument, but I think it's really strong for Protestant or 1668 02:18:54.280 --> 02:19:01.120 for excuse me, for Romancolics that are struggling, because it's one thing to 1669 02:19:01.200 --> 02:19:03.799 say, Okay, I believe that the pope you know, has this power 1670 02:19:03.840 --> 02:19:09.760 to define dogmas in an extraordinary way ex Cathedral et cetera. I follow and 1671 02:19:09.799 --> 02:19:13.079 have I'm bound to the ex Cathedral teachings. But then as an individual Catholic, 1672 02:19:13.399 --> 02:19:18.440 you're not in any any better position because you don't have any clear way 1673 02:19:18.479 --> 02:19:24.399 to adjudicate without going through this mountain of documents. You're not. My point 1674 02:19:24.440 --> 02:19:26.719 is that you're not in a much better position than a Protestant because instead of 1675 02:19:26.760 --> 02:19:31.360 the Protestant trying to wait his way through interpreting the scriptures, You've got more 1676 02:19:31.399 --> 02:19:37.079 work to do with mountains of papal documents and three broad criteria as to what 1677 02:19:37.239 --> 02:19:41.479 counts as binding an authoritative and you're not in any better positions. So how 1678 02:19:41.479 --> 02:19:46.799 do you know as an individual what dogmas you're supposed to follow when Roman Catholics 1679 02:19:46.840 --> 02:19:50.200 are just sort of parroting this idea. Well, I follow the ex Cathedral 1680 02:19:50.239 --> 02:19:52.559 teachings and you're not even given a list of that. You're given three broad 1681 02:19:52.600 --> 02:19:56.879 criteria. Now it's upon you to dig through mountains of papal documents to figure 1682 02:19:56.879 --> 02:20:00.440 out what that is. How are you in a better position than a promised 1683 02:20:00.440 --> 02:20:05.200 it? Oh that's what that's your point. Okay, I see what you're 1684 02:20:05.200 --> 02:20:07.159 getting at. I see what you're getting at. Okay, Yeah, I 1685 02:20:07.159 --> 02:20:09.879 mean when it comes to that, this is one of those things that if 1686 02:20:09.879 --> 02:20:16.399 I were to, you know, critique like the compendium of papal documents that 1687 02:20:16.440 --> 02:20:20.520 we have, the compendium of ecumenical councils all throughout church history. One of 1688 02:20:20.559 --> 02:20:22.719 the things that I think needs to be more clearly defined is the magisterium and 1689 02:20:22.760 --> 02:20:28.079 what the magisterium is and how the magisterium operates and how Catholic laity is supposed 1690 02:20:28.120 --> 02:20:31.840 to interact with the magisterium. And I don't think that we need to be 1691 02:20:31.920 --> 02:20:35.559 going through every single Taple document. I obviously believe that you know the politics 1692 02:20:35.559 --> 02:20:41.520 of Rome, the political establishment of the Catholic Oh wait a minute, though, 1693 02:20:43.360 --> 02:20:46.879 Wait a minute, I'm not talking about papal private opinions of politics. 1694 02:20:46.920 --> 02:20:48.799 I'm talking about talking about it. Either, that's not what I'm talking about. 1695 02:20:48.799 --> 02:20:54.719 Either, you're misunderstanding. Even the teachings themselves, even the things coming 1696 02:20:54.799 --> 02:20:58.399 out directly from the Church, they have a very very narrow effect on the 1697 02:20:58.440 --> 02:21:01.959 lives of every day Catholics. None of that is relevant to the point that 1698 02:21:03.040 --> 02:21:07.840 I'm making, which is that you're bound to follow not just ex Cathedral but 1699 02:21:07.920 --> 02:21:13.200 also the Pope's universal, ordinary magisterial teaching and his ordinary teaching. That means, 1700 02:21:13.239 --> 02:21:16.639 in this mountain of papal documents, all of those are binding on you. 1701 02:21:16.520 --> 02:21:22.280 That's the point. They're binding on you. And if you if you 1702 02:21:22.440 --> 02:21:26.120 know them, if you know what they're if you know what they're there binding 1703 02:21:26.159 --> 02:21:28.479 on you. Whether you know them or not, they're binding on you, 1704 02:21:28.520 --> 02:21:33.079 whether you know them or not to a certain capacity. But there's obviously like 1705 02:21:33.200 --> 02:21:35.319 reduced culpability when somebody does something, What does that have to do? What 1706 02:21:35.399 --> 02:21:39.200 does that have to do with? How are you in a better position than 1707 02:21:39.200 --> 02:21:43.159 a Protestant with this massive amount of documents to know what your actual church's teachings 1708 02:21:43.159 --> 02:21:46.799 are. Well, that's what I said. You need a clear definition of 1709 02:21:46.840 --> 02:21:50.879 the magisterium and the lil so two thousand years of the Roman Catholic Church hasn't 1710 02:21:50.879 --> 02:21:56.399 figured out how to define magisterium yet, as far as I can understand. 1711 02:21:56.440 --> 02:21:58.639 There's some uh, there's some pointing to it in Vatican One, which is 1712 02:21:58.719 --> 02:22:03.079 kind of what I was asking you about. And then uh, yeah, 1713 02:22:03.120 --> 02:22:07.000 And my point is that my point is that Vatican One gives you three criteria 1714 02:22:07.639 --> 02:22:11.639 of what you're bound to follow. That does you no good into actually adjudicating 1715 02:22:11.719 --> 02:22:16.159 what goes into what ben as an individual Roman Catholic reading through the mountains of 1716 02:22:16.200 --> 02:22:22.280 documents. I'm not talking about reading through the mountains of documents though, that's 1717 02:22:22.280 --> 02:22:26.360 not the point that I'm making. What I'm asking you about is like if 1718 02:22:26.600 --> 02:22:30.319 if you think, if I were to think as a Catholic, like I 1719 02:22:30.360 --> 02:22:33.799 said, as again, this is simple, if there is this you know, 1720 02:22:35.079 --> 02:22:37.920 uh, if there is this compendium of things that you need to follow 1721 02:22:37.920 --> 02:22:41.879 regarding ordinary magisterium, ex Cathedral statements, all these things that you know are 1722 02:22:41.959 --> 02:22:46.479 binding on you, that that that are all these things? Does Vatican One 1723 02:22:46.600 --> 02:22:50.360 explicitly state that? If it does, obviously it needs to be defined more 1724 02:22:50.399 --> 02:22:54.280 clearly in maybe a future Church council or anything along those lines. That how 1725 02:22:54.360 --> 02:22:58.920 much I can agree with you with That's what I'm asking about. Yeah, 1726 02:22:58.959 --> 02:23:03.639 it gives you three broad criteria, and it doesn't tell you what amongst the 1727 02:23:03.680 --> 02:23:07.520 massive amount of documents that you're bound to in those documents is in which Ben, 1728 02:23:07.879 --> 02:23:11.840 it's a very simple argument that I'm presenting to you. So the fact 1729 02:23:11.840 --> 02:23:15.120 that you're saying, I don't care about all those other documents, that's my 1730 02:23:15.280 --> 02:23:18.159 argument. My argument is that you have to care about all those other documents 1731 02:23:18.239 --> 02:23:22.479 because you're bound to those documents. And the three broad criteria do not give 1732 02:23:22.520 --> 02:23:30.479 you any better epistemic position than a Protestant reading the Bible. Okay, so 1733 02:23:31.680 --> 02:23:35.079 the papacy doesn't do what it's supposed to do. You're misunderstanding what I meant 1734 02:23:35.079 --> 02:23:39.000 by I don't care. I mean I don't care in regards to this very 1735 02:23:39.079 --> 02:23:43.360 narrow, specific thing, not that it doesn't matter on Yeah, well, 1736 02:23:43.360 --> 02:23:46.440 but you're not addressing the challenge that I'm presenting, which is that you're in 1737 02:23:46.479 --> 02:23:52.399 a position I'm not going to because I don't know the answers. I'm literally 1738 02:23:52.440 --> 02:23:54.719 trying to get information from you so I can look it up and understand it 1739 02:23:54.760 --> 02:23:58.360 better myself. Okay, Well, that in one's not long. It's it's 1740 02:23:58.360 --> 02:24:01.799 a it's a short council. You can read it printed out. It's about 1741 02:24:01.799 --> 02:24:03.840 fifteen pages if you print it out right. But I need to know what 1742 02:24:03.879 --> 02:24:07.360 your objections to it specifically are. That's my point, sure, and I 1743 02:24:07.360 --> 02:24:13.120 mean again, I've done it Infallibility is one of the things that you bring 1744 02:24:13.200 --> 02:24:16.120 up quite often, and I'm guessing it's regarding what you're saying about the cathedral 1745 02:24:16.200 --> 02:24:20.079 statements and the magisterial time. I think this is a very strong I think 1746 02:24:20.120 --> 02:24:24.319 this is a very strong argument given the fact that Roman Catholics are always saying 1747 02:24:24.399 --> 02:24:28.280 that we have the trump card, which is the office of the Pope, 1748 02:24:28.760 --> 02:24:33.559 which allows us to give certitude, to settle disputes, to know what the 1749 02:24:33.600 --> 02:24:37.959 dogmas are, to be certain of our faith. These are constant, constant 1750 02:24:37.239 --> 02:24:41.040 pop Catholic arguments that we are all the time. My point is that what 1751 02:24:41.159 --> 02:24:46.159 Vatican one tells you is three broad criteria and doesn't actually tell you where to 1752 02:24:46.200 --> 02:24:50.920 put into what to put into that into those bins. And so if Roman 1753 02:24:50.920 --> 02:24:54.000 Catholicism was actually going to do the work that it claims to do, we 1754 02:24:54.040 --> 02:24:58.280 should at least have a list of the ex cathedral dogmas. You don't have 1755 02:24:58.319 --> 02:25:01.680 that. So this is every dayiculous, bureaucratic, stupid system. That's my 1756 02:25:01.799 --> 02:25:09.719 argument. Okay, I mean, yeah, that's that's fine. I just 1757 02:25:09.760 --> 02:25:11.319 like I said, I don't think that that's a very that's a very strong 1758 02:25:11.399 --> 02:25:13.600 argument. And why is it not a strong Why is that not a strong 1759 02:25:13.639 --> 02:25:18.280 argument, Because because you're saying that that the system is entirely ineffective because there's 1760 02:25:18.319 --> 02:25:22.840 something that could be potentially added to it in another acumenical council in the future. 1761 02:25:22.879 --> 02:25:26.120 That actually, no, that's not the argument. The argument is that 1762 02:25:26.399 --> 02:25:31.000 it has not provided the very thing that it claims to have provided for two 1763 02:25:31.000 --> 02:25:35.239 thousand years. That's the argument, not whether there can be a future clarification. 1764 02:25:35.200 --> 02:25:39.440 So what you're specifically saying, I'm understanding you, Well, you can 1765 02:25:39.479 --> 02:25:43.840 aggravate it I'm asking for understanding because because you're being of twos, it's a 1766 02:25:43.959 --> 02:25:48.079 very clear, specific, obvious argument. No, I'm not. I'm not 1767 02:25:48.120 --> 02:25:50.040 being in too, so I'm actually being honest and asking you genuine questions. 1768 02:25:50.319 --> 02:25:52.959 If you want to assume that you're welcome to Okay, well, how many 1769 02:25:54.000 --> 02:25:58.280 more ways do I have to do? So? Look, the argument is 1770 02:25:58.319 --> 02:26:03.799 this that the real Catholic apologists all the time constantly argue that we have the 1771 02:26:03.840 --> 02:26:11.040 trump card as a Roman Catholic because we can give certitude, clarity, unity, 1772 02:26:11.600 --> 02:26:16.520 provide pastoral universal guidance through the office of the Pope as supreme teacher. 1773 02:26:16.799 --> 02:26:20.479 He's indeffectible, he's infallible, et cetera. That's the claim, that's the 1774 02:26:20.600 --> 02:26:24.920 argument, that's the car salesmanship that goes on. And what I'm saying is 1775 02:26:24.959 --> 02:26:28.719 that when we actually try to look at the doctrines and what I'm bound to 1776 02:26:28.799 --> 02:26:31.760 follow, when we raise a very basic question as to Okay, what are 1777 02:26:31.799 --> 02:26:37.079 the ex cathedral dogmas that I'm bound to, there's no list of the ex 1778 02:26:37.159 --> 02:26:41.840 cathedral dogmas every different Roman Catholic will get. That's a very strong argument. 1779 02:26:41.879 --> 02:26:45.760 If it in fact doesn't do this, it's a strong argument against the apologists 1780 02:26:45.760 --> 02:26:48.239 who are making an incomplete argument. That's all I'm here. They're echoing what 1781 02:26:48.280 --> 02:26:52.440 they're echoing what Vatican one says. That's the point. They're not wrong in 1782 02:26:52.239 --> 02:26:56.559 their argument, they're saying. That's what I'm asking you. So you're so 1783 02:26:56.559 --> 02:27:01.639 what you're saying about the Vatican One is that Vatican One makes a claim that 1784 02:27:01.680 --> 02:27:05.760 they can't back up. Have you read have you read Pastor Attornives? Have 1785 02:27:05.799 --> 02:27:09.559 you read Leo Staudi's Corgnito? No, I'm going to That's what I'm telling 1786 02:27:09.600 --> 02:27:11.440 you. I'm going into this discussion and I wanted to get your perspective. 1787 02:27:11.479 --> 02:27:15.159 That's why. So I'm not trying right. So when you read those doctrines, 1788 02:27:15.200 --> 02:27:18.719 you'll those doguments, you'll see that they're saying what I say, this 1789 02:27:18.920 --> 02:27:22.079 is the way you know the true faith. I'm asking for an example. 1790 02:27:22.200 --> 02:27:24.200 Is my point from the that you might know off the top of your head 1791 02:27:24.239 --> 02:27:28.760 from the documents that you're specific Yeah, it's it's called pastor Attornives. It 1792 02:27:28.799 --> 02:27:35.040 makes this very argument. Okay, yeah, I'll look at I'll look you 1793 02:27:35.079 --> 02:27:37.399 into it a little bit more. But it seems to me like you're refuting 1794 02:27:37.440 --> 02:27:43.399 Catholic apologists, and no Catholic apology. This is this is sophistry. It's 1795 02:27:43.440 --> 02:27:48.600 sophistry. No, it's sofist. It is sophistry. Off halfway. If 1796 02:27:48.639 --> 02:27:50.600 you cut me off halfway through my argument, you can make it. It's 1797 02:27:50.639 --> 02:27:54.559 an argument that it's sophistry. But if you'll only finish it, then you're 1798 02:27:54.559 --> 02:27:56.399 never going to get to the point at which I hopefully get direct and explicit, 1799 02:27:56.879 --> 02:28:03.440 because it's not a question of whether it's only a thing that the apologists 1800 02:28:03.440 --> 02:28:07.719 say. Okay, I was using them as an example. The apologists are 1801 02:28:07.760 --> 02:28:11.079 making their argument from what Vatican one very clearly teaches. It's called pastor attornis. 1802 02:28:11.360 --> 02:28:15.399 So rather than getting all sassy, you need to go read your basic 1803 02:28:15.479 --> 02:28:22.600 documents. This goes back to what I said. Okay, okay, you 1804 02:28:22.680 --> 02:28:24.840 got sassy in the debate. So then you came here claiming you weren't in 1805 02:28:24.879 --> 02:28:31.639 a debate because it was a bad argument. Because it was a bad argument. 1806 02:28:31.879 --> 02:28:35.959 It wasn't a conclusion. What are you regument It's not it's irrelevant. 1807 02:28:37.399 --> 02:28:41.079 It's not a question of what the apologists as authorities are saying. They're basing 1808 02:28:41.079 --> 02:28:46.680 it on Vatican One. I'm asking what part of Vatican One. It's called 1809 02:28:46.680 --> 02:28:52.920 pastor Attornis. It's called Pastornis. My gosh, it's not okay. This 1810 02:28:54.040 --> 02:28:56.360 is ridiculous. He doesn't even know his own documents, and then he's playing 1811 02:28:56.440 --> 02:29:01.639 like he's this victim and I'm cutting him off. This is what we get 1812 02:29:01.639 --> 02:29:07.200 with these people. Unbelievable. Connor, Well, I don't know about it 1813 02:29:07.200 --> 02:29:09.680 than one, but I'm gonna come argue it, even though I'm saying I'm 1814 02:29:09.680 --> 02:29:15.799 not arguing. I'm not arguing. Don't come off. They always play these 1815 02:29:15.840 --> 02:29:37.559 games. So sick of these people's games, Connor, go ahead. We 1816 02:29:37.600 --> 02:29:54.280 can't hear you man, no sound from you. Bro Bradley. Somebody said 1817 02:29:54.280 --> 02:29:56.479 I can tell you it was Calolk by the way he's arguing, the pitch 1818 02:29:56.479 --> 02:30:05.920 of his voice. It's always the it's always the same manifestations. Go ahead, 1819 02:30:07.239 --> 02:30:11.200 Hi Jay, Yes, sir, Yes, your last two guests were 1820 02:30:11.319 --> 02:30:16.239 very interesting. Just a little bit of background. I was an RCIA teacher. 1821 02:30:16.120 --> 02:30:20.760 If you don't know what that you know what that is? No for 1822 02:30:20.840 --> 02:30:24.840 several years and one of the things that drew me away from the Roman Catholic 1823 02:30:24.959 --> 02:30:31.120 Church was I simply could not answer the questions of non Catholics who were thinking 1824 02:30:31.159 --> 02:30:37.159 of joining the church I had. I realized I hadn't really thought about some 1825 02:30:37.239 --> 02:30:41.520 of the promulgations coming down from the batting, and especially the Immaculate Conception of 1826 02:30:41.559 --> 02:30:48.879 the eighteen hundreds, and then after nineteen hundred years, the assumption and the 1827 02:30:48.040 --> 02:30:52.360 rationale was always this has always been a part of the belief of the ancient 1828 02:30:52.440 --> 02:30:58.600 Church. Well, if that's the case, then why why doesn't the Orthodox 1829 02:30:58.719 --> 02:31:03.120 Church accept the Immaculate Conception? I mean, how far do you want to 1830 02:31:03.120 --> 02:31:05.719 go back to Saint Anne her parents? It didn't make any sense to me, 1831 02:31:05.760 --> 02:31:11.799 and I realized, even though I had passed that question in high school 1832 02:31:11.840 --> 02:31:16.040 and a religion exam, I didn't really believe it myself. So I couldn't 1833 02:31:16.120 --> 02:31:22.440 really in good conscience continue teaching r CIA something I didn't believe myself. And 1834 02:31:22.479 --> 02:31:28.760 then there were other issues that contributed to my leaving the Roman Catholic Church. 1835 02:31:30.040 --> 02:31:33.000 But that's one issue. I have another issue that I'd like to I don't 1836 02:31:33.000 --> 02:31:37.040 know if this is appropriate for this or not, and if it is, 1837 02:31:37.200 --> 02:31:41.280 if it isn't let me know. After I left the Roman Catholic Church, 1838 02:31:41.399 --> 02:31:46.319 I attended an Antiochian Orthodox Church for about a year and I met a very 1839 02:31:46.360 --> 02:31:50.959 nice couple, man and wife and his son, and they joined on Pasca. 1840 02:31:50.360 --> 02:31:54.920 I didn't join. I really wanted to, but something was kind of 1841 02:31:54.920 --> 02:31:58.840 holding me back because I really come more drawn to Rocor. In any case, 1842 02:32:00.040 --> 02:32:03.200 after about a year they joined, and after a year they had to 1843 02:32:03.239 --> 02:32:09.760 move several hundred miles away and they didn't have a local Antiochian church to go 1844 02:32:09.879 --> 02:32:16.559 to. And from my understanding, what the man told me was his pastor, 1845 02:32:16.799 --> 02:32:20.479 his previous pastor had to undergo a sort of a negotiation with a Greek 1846 02:32:20.559 --> 02:32:24.639 Orthodox church to transfer his membership there. And I wonder. I know that 1847 02:32:24.959 --> 02:32:31.719 there's a population problem and you know, overlapping dioceses and in this country, 1848 02:32:31.760 --> 02:32:39.239 but Orthodox Americans are somewhat at a disadvantage because if you're a Roman Catholic in 1849 02:32:39.280 --> 02:32:41.920 this country, all you need is a letter of transfer to from one church 1850 02:32:41.959 --> 02:32:46.600 to another. It's a pretty simple process. But where you have to cross 1851 02:32:46.719 --> 02:32:50.000 jurisdictions and get permission, you know, to join, I can see that 1852 02:32:50.040 --> 02:32:56.639 as I wonder how many Americans have that problem. I mean, a laity 1853 02:32:56.719 --> 02:32:58.959 can go to whatever Orthodox church they want, they don't have to do letter 1854 02:33:00.120 --> 02:33:07.399 of transfer, So are they are they allowed to Are they allowed to uh 1855 02:33:07.680 --> 02:33:13.079 received communion or do they have to? Is there like I know, yeah, 1856 02:33:13.079 --> 02:33:15.319 absolutely, I'm not trying to be rude. I'm going to move on. 1857 02:33:15.760 --> 02:33:18.159 You know, we're talking about kind of Roman Catholic protests and stuff, 1858 02:33:18.200 --> 02:33:22.079 not orthodox jurisdictional issues. But yeah, I mean, unless you're under some 1859 02:33:22.159 --> 02:33:45.600 canonical impediment, you can Drago got another Roman Catholic. Yeah, I'm mute. 1860 02:33:46.399 --> 02:33:48.959 Is it on me? Sorry because the stuff cut off or someone else 1861 02:33:48.000 --> 02:33:54.520 speaking, You're right, Oh, thanks, j Yeah. So I used 1862 02:33:54.520 --> 02:34:00.399 to be a Protestant, you know, k through twelve school, then became 1863 02:34:00.600 --> 02:34:03.760 a Catholic, went to the University of Notre Dame and Catholic for about eight 1864 02:34:03.840 --> 02:34:07.079 years. But I am you know, I'm going to start looking just get 1865 02:34:07.159 --> 02:34:11.399 up to speed on the different church history positions, Orthodox, Catholic, et 1866 02:34:11.440 --> 02:34:13.120 cetera. But I know we're folks a more on the Protestant stuff. I 1867 02:34:13.120 --> 02:34:16.280 guess my question is, I know, for the Catholic perspective, there's the 1868 02:34:16.319 --> 02:34:22.040 idea of development, whereas you know, people who criticized Catholicism would say, 1869 02:34:22.159 --> 02:34:26.079 yeah, you're kind of adding stuff that that wasn't there before. I know, 1870 02:34:26.159 --> 02:34:31.040 someone mentioned the emaculate conception and well, but also I mean Pastor Attornis 1871 02:34:31.040 --> 02:34:35.879 and about you know, Stati's cognitium. They don't speak as if it's a 1872 02:34:35.920 --> 02:34:39.440 development, They speak as if it was always the case. So I think 1873 02:34:39.479 --> 02:34:45.040 that you're kind of put in a mutually exclusive choice position if you're a Roman 1874 02:34:45.079 --> 02:34:48.559 Catholic as to whether you want to accept development of doctrine or whether you want 1875 02:34:48.600 --> 02:34:54.559 to accept that it was always there. Yeah, it seems I feel. 1876 02:34:54.600 --> 02:34:56.559 I guess the frustration for me is a lot of these claims from both sides 1877 02:34:56.639 --> 02:35:01.200 just seem fundamentally unfalsifiable. Or you just have to choose your axiom and your 1878 02:35:01.200 --> 02:35:05.639 presupposition and that dictates then the rest of how you look at history. Is 1879 02:35:05.680 --> 02:35:09.200 that a fair thing? Or do you think that you can definitively have the 1880 02:35:09.239 --> 02:35:15.760 correct epistemology without resorting to just an arbitrary selection of an axiom. I think 1881 02:35:15.760 --> 02:35:20.440 that if Romancatholicism contradicts at a dogmatic level, that's all you need. That's 1882 02:35:20.639 --> 02:35:28.680 that invalidates the system. And would you say, okay, for example, 1883 02:35:28.799 --> 02:35:33.239 let's say transubstantiation, right, the formalized the presentation like that language wasn't used, 1884 02:35:33.239 --> 02:35:39.000 It wasn't written like that the church. But how can we know whether 1885 02:35:39.399 --> 02:35:46.959 from an argument from silence, whether it's a clarification on something that was previously 1886 02:35:46.000 --> 02:35:50.159 intuitive. So you kind of intuitively knew it, and then you just created 1887 02:35:50.159 --> 02:35:54.319 the language to describe the intuition behind the concept, versus just creating a novel 1888 02:35:54.360 --> 02:36:00.120 concept entirely that wasn't even grasped intuitively, Like is there a reliance? I 1889 02:36:00.159 --> 02:36:05.280 don't, So I think that's a different topic in terms of, you know, 1890 02:36:05.399 --> 02:36:09.520 explicating and clarifying what was already believed. We don't believe that doctrine develops. 1891 02:36:09.559 --> 02:36:13.879 We don't believe that there's something that the faith has at the Seventh Council 1892 02:36:13.920 --> 02:36:18.120 with icons that's new and wasn't the case in the Apostles. Right, So 1893 02:36:18.120 --> 02:36:22.120 a lot of times, for example, Eric Abara will say, well, 1894 02:36:22.239 --> 02:36:26.799 look good the icons they developed. They didn't have those into first century. 1895 02:36:26.079 --> 02:36:30.000 And yet when you read the Seventh Ecumentical Council, it says it's not a 1896 02:36:30.040 --> 02:36:33.120 development, it's an Apostolic tradition. So he goes against the very thing the 1897 02:36:33.159 --> 02:36:35.559 council says. So that's different. So we have a different approach. We 1898 02:36:35.600 --> 02:36:43.280 don't think that there's some deficiency to the patristic period that's complete calling crusades against 1899 02:36:43.360 --> 02:36:46.200 Muslims versus going and praying and moss towards Mecca, because that's a straight up 1900 02:36:46.239 --> 02:36:52.840 contradiction. How is it not, you know, saying at Chalcedon that clerics 1901 02:36:52.879 --> 02:36:58.239 cannot be members of the state, and then you have the papacy saying that 1902 02:36:58.280 --> 02:37:03.520 you have to believe that the papacy is a state with universal world geopolitical power 1903 02:37:03.600 --> 02:37:09.120 to be saved. I mean to me, those are just contradictions. Yeah, 1904 02:37:09.399 --> 02:37:11.040 I have to look into those. On the former one, though, 1905 02:37:11.079 --> 02:37:15.840 we talk about crusades on Muslims versus praying in a mosque, is that just 1906 02:37:15.959 --> 02:37:20.280 kind of like some kind of official doctrinal thing or just more of a pastoral 1907 02:37:20.319 --> 02:37:24.959 discretionary you know, maybe better See again, you can't, like the councils 1908 02:37:26.000 --> 02:37:33.799 teach that clerics cannot go to synagogue's mosques or the gatherings of heretics and schismatics 1909 02:37:33.840 --> 02:37:37.159 to participate in liturgical services. So to go into a mosque as the pope 1910 02:37:37.399 --> 02:37:41.360 and to pray with the Muslims towards Mecca is an action of apostasy. In 1911 02:37:41.479 --> 02:37:46.000 traditional moral theology the Romancolic Church. I see, yeah, I got to 1912 02:37:46.040 --> 02:37:50.120 look at that event. So thanks for mentioning that. And if I could 1913 02:37:50.159 --> 02:37:54.280 just ask one question, you know, yeah, one Protestant brought to mind 1914 02:37:54.319 --> 02:38:01.079 this quote of Augustine and his Retractions where Augustine talks about the you know, 1915 02:38:01.200 --> 02:38:03.079 rock of the Church, and Augustine says, you know, sometimes I say 1916 02:38:03.120 --> 02:38:09.879 it's Peter, sometimes a price confession, but let the reader decide which interpretation. 1917 02:38:09.520 --> 02:38:13.000 And for me, I'm kind of scratching my head, like, why 1918 02:38:13.040 --> 02:38:16.600 is Augustine saying let the reader decide if it's like some arbitrary Well, I 1919 02:38:16.680 --> 02:38:20.719 mean more than that. If you read Denny's book Papalism, you'll find that 1920 02:38:20.760 --> 02:38:24.680 the majority of the church fathers do not expose it that in that way. 1921 02:38:26.319 --> 02:38:31.239 There's a lot of dissension, a lot of dispute about the Rock and about 1922 02:38:31.239 --> 02:38:35.040 Matthew sixteen. And so that to me says, well, wait a minute, 1923 02:38:35.079 --> 02:38:37.920 if there's a lot of dispute and dissension, then it's not so. 1924 02:38:39.079 --> 02:38:41.879 Forty four of the church fathers believe that it's the faith, seventeen of them 1925 02:38:41.920 --> 02:38:46.520 say it's Peter. So so much for what was believed everywhere at all times 1926 02:38:46.559 --> 02:38:52.879 by all. Yeah, no, I see, I see what you're saying. 1927 02:38:54.319 --> 02:38:56.879 What's the what for Orthodox? What does the mean? What is the 1928 02:38:56.879 --> 02:39:01.040 whole primacy of Peter mean? First among equals? Is like? In practice? 1929 02:39:01.280 --> 02:39:03.879 What does that necessarily mean? Is there any added layer of authority or 1930 02:39:05.000 --> 02:39:07.360 is it there no additional authority? Like? What does it mean to be 1931 02:39:07.440 --> 02:39:09.840 first? I still don't quite understand that one. Well. I mean, 1932 02:39:11.000 --> 02:39:15.959 in the ecumenical councils. In the Orthodox view, certain privileges are accorded to 1933 02:39:16.159 --> 02:39:22.559 metropolitan sees, and typically in the history of like the Canons of sartk or 1934 02:39:22.559 --> 02:39:26.399 something like that, you can appeal for a retrial. So if you wanted 1935 02:39:26.440 --> 02:39:31.079 an answer to that from a Roman Catholic perspective, you could read the Alexandria 1936 02:39:31.159 --> 02:39:35.639 document right here, which actually is a Roman Catholic approved document that basically admits 1937 02:39:37.159 --> 02:39:39.479 what we would say. It's basically admitting most of our of our arguments. 1938 02:39:39.479 --> 02:39:43.799 There's a couple of places where I think it still tries to salvage the Roman 1939 02:39:43.840 --> 02:39:48.600 Catholic people position, But for the most part, if this document is correct, 1940 02:39:48.600 --> 02:39:52.559 the Medican one's not true. So, I mean, if you look 1941 02:39:52.600 --> 02:39:58.120 at, for example, the way I'm metropolitan has privileges within his jurisdiction, 1942 02:39:58.280 --> 02:40:03.840 like the Moscow patriarchate. You know, he has privileges about all the bishops 1943 02:40:03.840 --> 02:40:07.639 in his domain. In terms of the synod, he has privileges about priests 1944 02:40:07.639 --> 02:40:16.399 that are ordained, he signs off on them. So different different patriarchates can 1945 02:40:16.440 --> 02:40:20.760 have privileges within their synod. However, those privileges don't really extend outside of 1946 02:40:20.760 --> 02:40:24.200 that jurisdiction. And that's why the Alexandria document and the Chi eighty document admit 1947 02:40:24.600 --> 02:40:31.799 that Rome did not exercise jurisdiction outside of Rome. So whatever privileges it has 1948 02:40:31.840 --> 02:40:37.559 signing the documents first at the ecumenical councils, you know, flowery language, 1949 02:40:39.040 --> 02:40:45.799 whatever, none of that is. You know, Vatican One's super bishop got 1950 02:40:45.840 --> 02:40:48.360 it all right. Well, the thank you J for having me on and 1951 02:40:48.399 --> 02:40:52.479 for hosting these spaces. Absolutely have great questions. I appreciate your your attitude 1952 02:40:52.559 --> 02:40:56.000 as a very civil connor do you want to try again because we get in 1953 02:40:56.040 --> 02:41:11.399 here you a minute ago, A J appreciate you giving me a second chance 1954 02:41:11.440 --> 02:41:16.159 there. So I hope this isn't getting off topic, and I'll feed the 1955 02:41:16.159 --> 02:41:20.760 ground if it is. But I did hear you addressing about pritterism and some 1956 02:41:20.840 --> 02:41:26.799 aschotology questions do And I've been having some discussions with some ultodox I'm Protestants, 1957 02:41:28.159 --> 02:41:39.520 and I have encountered this concept of the Great Apostasy and it's playing. I 1958 02:41:39.559 --> 02:41:43.360 have some questions about what Orthodoxy believes about this. This is the standard teaching. 1959 02:41:43.959 --> 02:41:50.159 And it also seems to me that there might be some issues with with 1960 02:41:50.280 --> 02:41:54.920 the debate about the West most of the East as it as the question is, 1961 02:41:56.239 --> 02:42:01.040 I guess the West kind of looks at the future as we are progressing. 1962 02:42:01.600 --> 02:42:07.559 There was a progression in Christianity is looking for the future that is going 1963 02:42:07.600 --> 02:42:13.120 to be different than the the past or the present. And maybe Orthodoxy doesn't 1964 02:42:13.120 --> 02:42:16.479 see things this way, if you mean, like, do we see truth 1965 02:42:16.559 --> 02:42:22.200 as something static and unchanging? Yes, So the faith that's once we're all 1966 02:42:22.200 --> 02:42:26.000 delivered to the saints, as Jude says in Jude three, that's sufficient, 1967 02:42:26.319 --> 02:42:33.040 right, So there's nothing that occurs in the seventh century that makes up for 1968 02:42:33.120 --> 02:42:37.360 deficiencies in the first or second century. So a lot of Roman Catholics have 1969 02:42:37.440 --> 02:42:43.239 this attitude of like, well, you know, that was the early infant 1970 02:42:43.319 --> 02:42:48.040 church and it hadn't developed into the flowery medieval, you know, worldly kingdom 1971 02:42:48.079 --> 02:42:52.760 of the papacy. Yet we would say no, no, it's there's nothing 1972 02:42:52.799 --> 02:43:00.239 deficient in the first century that the seventh century adds, and so can them. 1973 02:43:00.639 --> 02:43:05.319 You seem to you seem to buy into that view without a general Orthodox 1974 02:43:05.440 --> 02:43:09.079 view. I would say most of the Eastern church fathers that comments on those 1975 02:43:09.079 --> 02:43:18.200 passages have a typical partial predators attitude. Athanatos Syrial uh St John Chris System. 1976 02:43:18.399 --> 02:43:22.520 Okay. In the Great Apostasy, is this a concept in Orthodoxy or 1977 02:43:22.559 --> 02:43:24.680 what is that? Yeah, I would say when it's discussed, Uh, 1978 02:43:26.040 --> 02:43:30.360 you have a lot of elders, saints and church fathers that talk about a 1979 02:43:30.399 --> 02:43:35.159 final day's apostasy based on the Thessalonians text. Yes, there's an Orthodox book 1980 02:43:35.239 --> 02:43:43.639 that's well known called Apostasy and Antichrist that's put out by Jordanville Monastery Jordanville Monster. 1981 02:43:46.520 --> 02:43:52.520 Okay, but so truth doesn't change. But then Christianity is progressing to 1982 02:43:52.959 --> 02:43:58.000 with some vision of the future. I mean again, you're you're using kind 1983 02:43:58.000 --> 02:44:01.799 of terms that that are not like, I don't know what you mean by 1984 02:44:01.840 --> 02:44:05.719 progressing. I mean we would say that you know, the Gospel being spread 1985 02:44:05.799 --> 02:44:11.120 is progression, but progressing like in the progressivism or Newman's doctrinal development. No, 1986 02:44:11.200 --> 02:44:15.520 we don't believe those things. No, I totally understand that. But 1987 02:44:15.600 --> 02:44:18.440 I guess, and I'm using language because I don't. I don't really have 1988 02:44:18.440 --> 02:44:24.520 the theological language's that's okay. I have very conservative beliefs, so I'm not 1989 02:44:24.680 --> 02:44:28.079 I'm not talking about liberalism per se. But I do find this frame, 1990 02:44:28.120 --> 02:44:33.399 it seems like with a lot of Orthodox where they just find everything like the 1991 02:44:33.440 --> 02:44:39.200 whole rational mind in the West is corrupted because we're trying to we're trying to 1992 02:44:39.239 --> 02:44:45.120 create a society or a world that is better than the one we have now. 1993 02:44:45.399 --> 02:44:48.719 And it seems to me that in the Christian frame, this is essentially 1994 02:44:48.719 --> 02:44:52.239 what we are doing. Yes, so maybe we're not discovering more truth, 1995 02:44:52.280 --> 02:44:56.200 but we do have to just we do. I mean, we do have 1996 02:44:56.239 --> 02:44:58.360 to discover more truth. The truth is not changing, but we're discovering it 1997 02:44:58.479 --> 02:45:03.319 now. Well, there's created truths and you know, truths about the world 1998 02:45:03.360 --> 02:45:07.559 and nature, and those are those can be new discoveries. But we're not 1999 02:45:07.600 --> 02:45:13.200 making new theological discoveries. There's no new dogmas or something like this. So 2000 02:45:15.360 --> 02:45:18.159 again I guess I'm just not sure what what what you're getting at with that. 2001 02:45:20.360 --> 02:45:24.079 No, it's probably off topic for the for the space, but I'm 2002 02:45:24.079 --> 02:45:28.040 gonna look that up. So the Great, the Great Apostasy Book? Can 2003 02:45:28.079 --> 02:45:35.959 you give me the title? One? And Anti Christ Jordanville Monastery. Okay, 2004 02:45:35.000 --> 02:45:41.719 thank you, you have good questions, Concreasador. I'm getting a little 2005 02:45:41.719 --> 02:45:45.920 tired, so I'm gonna have to wrap it up pretty soon. We've been 2006 02:45:45.959 --> 02:45:58.639 going for a long time today. Good I'm your you guys. Hey, 2007 02:46:00.239 --> 02:46:03.280 Jay, thanks for having me. I gotta admit a lot of smart speakers 2008 02:46:03.280 --> 02:46:07.200 in here. I'm kind of retarded when it comes to that, just a 2009 02:46:07.280 --> 02:46:13.159 lowly new Protestant here. My biggest question for you is what do you think 2010 02:46:13.399 --> 02:46:16.159 Protestantism is getting right in America today? And what do you think is getting 2011 02:46:16.159 --> 02:46:26.200 wrong? Thank you? Well, I wouldn't say that Protestantism as a whole 2012 02:46:26.280 --> 02:46:31.719 collective movement is like doing things right, because it kind of assumes that it's 2013 02:46:31.840 --> 02:46:39.280 like this singular front. I think that the best way I could frame that 2014 02:46:39.479 --> 02:46:45.399 is there's a lot of sincere individual Protestants who are doing good things and who 2015 02:46:45.440 --> 02:46:48.559 mean well and are sincere. But I don't think that there's any like collective 2016 02:46:48.639 --> 02:46:54.040 bodies of Protestantism that I would get behind or say that it's really that they're 2017 02:46:54.040 --> 02:46:58.479 really doing good things. So good question, what are they doing wrong? 2018 02:47:00.959 --> 02:47:07.040 I think the protestantsm just kind of started as a reaction to legitimate corruption in 2019 02:47:07.079 --> 02:47:11.040 the Roman Church and unfortunately kind of threw out a lot of the baby with 2020 02:47:11.280 --> 02:47:18.079 the bathwater. So as a historical movement, I think it's pretty much been 2021 02:47:18.200 --> 02:47:22.920 a pretty bad, pretty big failure. But that's not to speak to individual 2022 02:47:22.000 --> 02:47:26.920 Protestants, who I think many of whom are good and are sincere and are 2023 02:47:26.879 --> 02:47:50.120 doing good things. Michael, you got im, mute man, Gimothy Torton 2024 02:47:50.239 --> 02:47:54.440 one dollar. Tim says that he's not at theologian when you're ask him questions, 2025 02:47:54.440 --> 02:47:58.760 and he constantly makes videos on theology. Yeah, I mean, I 2026 02:47:58.799 --> 02:48:03.200 got. I think Tim likes to just stay in the wheelhouse of philosophy and 2027 02:48:03.399 --> 02:48:07.639 cultural war. So that's probably what he feels like is his wheelhouse. Harry 2028 02:48:07.680 --> 02:48:11.000 Sarpano's ten dollars, Jenny, thank you for good works and exposing falsehoods. 2029 02:48:11.440 --> 02:48:16.120 Thank you, Harry, appreciate that long time super chatter. Now we lost 2030 02:48:16.399 --> 02:48:20.479 our dude or Michael, you're still there. Do you want to unmute? 2031 02:48:22.079 --> 02:48:26.959 You're up, man, if you want to unmute and talk all right, 2032 02:48:31.360 --> 02:49:03.799 moving on schoolyon history, you gotta ummute. Sorry, sorry about the Jake 2033 02:49:03.840 --> 02:49:07.920 and you hear me? What's up? Man? Hey man? First off? 2034 02:49:11.399 --> 02:49:15.600 Okay, so yeah, funny enough. I actually I think I know 2035 02:49:15.719 --> 02:49:18.959 that one angry Joe guy, that Catholic guy. I'm pretty sure he's my 2036 02:49:20.040 --> 02:49:24.879 buddy's uh co worker, work for a Catholic studio, And I just want 2037 02:49:24.959 --> 02:49:28.239 to just I'm not here to debate, I'm orthodox, but really quick, 2038 02:49:28.879 --> 02:49:31.760 I just wanted to say that, like, you know, I think the 2039 02:49:31.840 --> 02:49:37.799 problem is with a lot of Catholics is they when debating, they're looking into 2040 02:49:39.000 --> 02:49:43.639 really technical issues and they're getting so detailed they kind of miss the force for 2041 02:49:43.680 --> 02:49:46.399 the trees, you know, and they see it as like I don't think 2042 02:49:46.440 --> 02:49:50.719 the Night's Catholics were detailed, So no, but you know what I mean, 2043 02:49:50.799 --> 02:49:56.639 Like I basically I think they they get stuck on you know, but 2044 02:49:56.159 --> 02:50:00.719 they get stuck on these little points, right, and they'll and then you 2045 02:50:00.840 --> 02:50:03.239 kind of lose your way, or at least that's what I find when I'm 2046 02:50:03.719 --> 02:50:07.239 debating my Catholic buddies. But I think the funny thing is it's like if 2047 02:50:07.280 --> 02:50:11.159 you look back, I think the right way to go is like with the 2048 02:50:11.159 --> 02:50:16.440 Pope, as you say, you know, it's not a technical thing, 2049 02:50:16.479 --> 02:50:20.200 but they look at it as a technicality. I talked to a Catholic buddy 2050 02:50:20.200 --> 02:50:24.280 and I said, is it supposed to work? Is the Pope supposed to 2051 02:50:24.479 --> 02:50:28.680 bring clarification? And he said, technically, technically it's supposed to work. 2052 02:50:28.040 --> 02:50:33.840 And to me, the question is like, does God work in technicalities or 2053 02:50:33.879 --> 02:50:35.799 does he work in reality? Well? No, I mean I think they 2054 02:50:35.879 --> 02:50:39.719 end up with this sort of Telmudic type attitude ultimately, where no, God 2055 02:50:39.760 --> 02:50:46.879 works on technicalities and he tallies up your days that you owe and temporal punishment 2056 02:50:46.920 --> 02:50:48.719 purgatory and if you don't pay off every day. I mean, it's just 2057 02:50:48.840 --> 02:50:52.079 ridiculous. So not trying to be mean, but I do want to get 2058 02:50:52.120 --> 02:51:11.799 through some more of these m jancomo undici. So you got another Catholic h 2059 02:51:13.639 --> 02:51:28.120 kah, go ahead, got i'm you. Did you not turn your mic 2060 02:51:28.200 --> 02:51:41.680 on, bro jihncono gihncomo undici, we can't hear you. Man, come 2061 02:51:41.680 --> 02:52:01.319 out and come back in turn on your michm all right, let's try again. 2062 02:52:07.079 --> 02:52:09.440 Oh well, yes, sir, how's it going? Can you? 2063 02:52:09.479 --> 02:52:13.200 Can you hear me? Yeah? Man? All right. So I've been 2064 02:52:13.239 --> 02:52:16.239 listening to a few of these people, and I've actually watched a few of 2065 02:52:16.280 --> 02:52:20.399 your debates. I think I watched you maybe debated some big eric I think 2066 02:52:20.440 --> 02:52:24.719 his name was, and then I watched this other guy, Luigi debates some 2067 02:52:24.760 --> 02:52:28.440 other guy. So I've watched a few of these debates, and I've seen 2068 02:52:28.440 --> 02:52:31.799 the orthod. So the Orthodox they seem to in these debates, it seems 2069 02:52:31.840 --> 02:52:37.520 to appeal to Vatican one and they go back in one is why Roman Catholicism 2070 02:52:37.639 --> 02:52:41.200 is false? And I guess my question is, I don't know if I'm 2071 02:52:41.319 --> 02:52:43.200 able to, like I from like suit a debate this, But I guess 2072 02:52:43.239 --> 02:52:48.600 my question is, wouldn't it just make more sense to debate from the schism 2073 02:52:48.120 --> 02:52:52.120 like from that and like before and see like, okay, which system was 2074 02:52:52.159 --> 02:52:56.959 true at that point because that's when they broke off and then you see which 2075 02:52:56.040 --> 02:52:58.520 church which is true? Beforehand? Like? Does that? You see what 2076 02:52:58.559 --> 02:53:01.600 I'm saying? Why don't you debate? No? This is an argument I 2077 02:53:01.639 --> 02:53:05.719 make all the time. I've done countless live trains where I argue that the 2078 02:53:05.840 --> 02:53:09.440 church of the first thousand years is the way that we would determine who the 2079 02:53:09.479 --> 02:53:16.719 ancient church is. So I'm saying, like you, a lot of like 2080 02:53:16.719 --> 02:53:18.319 what I've been hearing today is just like you talk about zatk in one. 2081 02:53:18.559 --> 02:53:22.559 Well, that's just what came up tonight. But I've made countless hours of 2082 02:53:22.639 --> 02:53:28.799 videos arguing from the first thousand years of the church. Okay, yeah, 2083 02:53:28.840 --> 02:53:31.280 that was probably my that was my main question. I have like another small 2084 02:53:31.360 --> 02:53:37.520 question. Okay, so I saw this on Twitter. There was this like 2085 02:53:37.639 --> 02:53:41.639 deacons in the Orthodox Church who like I don't know what, I don't know 2086 02:53:41.680 --> 02:53:45.239 exactly what it was, but she was a deacons and she was like handing 2087 02:53:45.280 --> 02:53:48.639 out to Eucharist. How and like the Orthodox system cannot be like stopped or 2088 02:53:48.760 --> 02:53:54.159 something like that, be like not let's stop, because it's rejected by most 2089 02:53:54.200 --> 02:53:58.040 of the Orthodox world. So it's a very small minority who really wants to 2090 02:53:58.040 --> 02:54:01.879 push these things. So how does like that situation get like handled is like 2091 02:54:01.959 --> 02:54:07.920 within like the local church, And yeah, if if it continues, then 2092 02:54:07.920 --> 02:54:11.920 eventually they get basically rejected by the rest of the Orthodox Church. And synods 2093 02:54:11.959 --> 02:54:22.719 would come, would consider them condemned and so forth. So they're more Roman 2094 02:54:22.760 --> 02:54:26.319 Catholics, so we get a lot of a lot of Orthodox questions. So 2095 02:54:26.840 --> 02:54:35.920 I'm getting pretty tired modern apostate. It's a Catholic. My mind's turning too 2096 02:54:35.959 --> 02:54:43.959 much. Because we did a live stream before this. Yeah, it's just 2097 02:54:43.000 --> 02:54:46.200 kind of funny to hear people talk about it like problems in the Orthodox Church 2098 02:54:46.280 --> 02:54:50.399 when you know, like I live in Chicago, and you know, a 2099 02:54:50.479 --> 02:54:54.000 priest's blessing the gay union, and then you know, like there's I saw 2100 02:54:54.040 --> 02:54:58.879 a video recently where there's this woman she's offering masks, and it's just it's 2101 02:54:58.920 --> 02:55:03.479 just kind of ridiculous. And I I'm Catholic, but I'm considering converting because 2102 02:55:03.520 --> 02:55:09.159 it's just all the arguments seem to be very convincing. One thing I wanted 2103 02:55:09.159 --> 02:55:13.159 to ask was if if I'm considering converting, how do I go about living 2104 02:55:13.360 --> 02:55:18.600 liturgical life? So, for example, if I'm Catholic and I've committed sins, 2105 02:55:18.760 --> 02:55:22.360 should I go continue going to the confession in the Catholic Church or should 2106 02:55:22.360 --> 02:55:28.280 I wait until I'm accepted into the Orthodox Church? Yeah, I mean I 2107 02:55:28.280 --> 02:55:35.319 would I would say I wouldn't. I mean, you're gonna do probably what 2108 02:55:35.360 --> 02:55:39.200 your conscience dictates to you. So I can't tell you what your conscience is, 2109 02:55:39.280 --> 02:55:43.120 and it shouldn't be. But if I were in that situation, I 2110 02:55:43.159 --> 02:55:48.840 wouldn't continue the Roman Catholic stuff because I think you're uniting yourself spiritually. Not 2111 02:55:48.840 --> 02:55:54.040 trying to be rude, but I mean, we see a communion as something 2112 02:55:54.200 --> 02:55:58.719 important, and who you're in communion with matters, and I would not want 2113 02:55:58.760 --> 02:56:03.040 to be in communion with friends. So because there's a spiritual thing going on 2114 02:56:03.159 --> 02:56:15.680 there, Centurion, you got I'm mute, Hey, can you guys hear 2115 02:56:15.680 --> 02:56:18.559 me? Good? Even Jay, thanks so much for having on. So 2116 02:56:20.000 --> 02:56:22.680 I'm coming from a Protestant background. I was raised as a Lutheran and then 2117 02:56:22.680 --> 02:56:26.520 I kind of aposthesize, went through you know, whole atheist phase, all 2118 02:56:26.559 --> 02:56:30.200 that stuff, and coming back into it now. I am very interested in 2119 02:56:30.719 --> 02:56:35.559 Orthodoxy, leaning towards it. Absolutely wonderful sort of a question for you, 2120 02:56:35.600 --> 02:56:41.079 coming from almost a Roman Catholic perspective, because one of my Catholic friends was 2121 02:56:41.120 --> 02:56:43.040 trying to convince me not to go Orthodox, and one thing he mentioned was 2122 02:56:43.079 --> 02:56:52.600 that there's an Orthodox tradition of denying women communion if they are on their menstrual 2123 02:56:52.639 --> 02:56:58.239 cycle, and from a Protestant background, denying communion as someone just seems kind 2124 02:56:58.239 --> 02:57:01.719 of wrong to me. Yeah, this is just a thing that pops up 2125 02:57:01.760 --> 02:57:07.719 in certain Russian areas for whatever. It's kind of a Russian superstition that pops 2126 02:57:07.799 --> 02:57:11.879 up. Sometimes. It's not the norm, and it has to do. 2127 02:57:11.959 --> 02:57:16.200 It's just sort of like people reading Old Testament texts and then sort of getting 2128 02:57:18.760 --> 02:57:22.680 concerned with this. But it's not usually the case. I've never I've only 2129 02:57:22.680 --> 02:57:30.040 heard it discussed as a thing that happens sometimes. But to me, I 2130 02:57:30.120 --> 02:57:33.399 don't think that should make It doesn't make sense in terms of the liberty that 2131 02:57:33.440 --> 02:57:37.200 we have in the New Covenant, I wouldn't think so. But you do 2132 02:57:37.280 --> 02:57:45.559 sometimes get these like the Old Believers, for example, they developed some kind 2133 02:57:45.559 --> 02:57:50.280 of weird superstitions at times. So I'm not knocking everybody that attends an Old 2134 02:57:50.319 --> 02:57:54.120 Ride or whatever. I'm just saying that sometimes you can get these sort of 2135 02:57:54.120 --> 02:58:24.360 superstitious ideas that developed. Chris, what's up? Uh? So it looks 2136 02:58:24.399 --> 02:58:33.959 like Chris can't connect. Donald wants to come on, Okay, Donald Trump's 2137 02:58:33.959 --> 02:58:39.399 here, finally, unbelievable. We have a great guy, Donald Rubby Sham 2138 02:58:39.479 --> 02:58:43.120 He's gonna be great good. I'm mute, gonna have to im mute. 2139 02:58:43.120 --> 02:58:48.760 I gotta tell you if you good, I'm mute. Hello, Yeah, 2140 02:58:48.840 --> 02:58:54.920 hey Jay, can you hear me? Okay? Sorry Jay? Hey j 2141 02:58:54.200 --> 02:59:01.000 Dyer. I've been a huge fan since early twenty eight, twenty nineteen. 2142 02:59:01.079 --> 02:59:07.120 Part of my preachings is that that you won the culture Wars, you beat 2143 02:59:07.319 --> 02:59:13.559 JF at blood Sports. Okay, back the thing anyway, I've been exclusively 2144 02:59:16.760 --> 02:59:22.000 Jad what the freg before that and ever since Jay Dyer all the way. 2145 02:59:22.120 --> 02:59:26.799 I'm a Protestant born a Catholic, went through the ropes, you know, 2146 02:59:26.000 --> 02:59:31.280 the early stuff. I'm sorry to ask, but I just wanted to know, 2147 02:59:31.120 --> 02:59:37.399 as it was brought up today, what is the rapture like? Is 2148 02:59:37.440 --> 02:59:43.040 it a thing like? What does the Bible say about the end times? 2149 02:59:43.079 --> 02:59:46.600 What does it really look like? Even though like I've gone through like the 2150 02:59:46.600 --> 02:59:50.760 Bible twenty times, I really don't concentrate on the end times. I've also 2151 02:59:50.920 --> 02:59:58.680 have seen you also have you seen terrors amongst the wheat seql to lamp and 2152 02:59:58.760 --> 03:00:05.639 the which goes into the beginnings of the Protestant and Catholic crusade against them. 2153 03:00:05.760 --> 03:00:09.079 I won't take up any more of your time. Good sir, I love 2154 03:00:09.120 --> 03:00:13.879 you, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, I have not seen 2155 03:00:13.959 --> 03:00:18.559 the documentary or movie that you're talking about. The rapture is a there is 2156 03:00:18.600 --> 03:00:24.360 a bodily assumption resurrection event that occurs in the Book of Thessalonians. But we 2157 03:00:24.360 --> 03:00:28.280 would say, Paul just talking about the last days, the final the general 2158 03:00:28.319 --> 03:00:33.239 resurrection of all men, and then the eternal state. So there's no pre 2159 03:00:33.319 --> 03:00:41.639 tribulation rapture. This is a Plymouth Brethren Protestant created doctrine. John Nelson Darby 2160 03:00:41.799 --> 03:00:45.959 and C. I. Schofield and the whole idea of dispensationalism made up this 2161 03:00:46.079 --> 03:00:50.840 idea. It has nothing really to do with anything in terms of historic Christianity. 2162 03:00:50.920 --> 03:00:56.159 And yeah, so fond ten dollars. I used to I visited the 2163 03:00:56.159 --> 03:01:01.079 Pentecostal Church. It is the same atmosphere as a temple in Pentecostal Church. 2164 03:01:01.120 --> 03:01:05.959 God inhabits them. They scream and shake, they jibber. This was on 2165 03:01:07.040 --> 03:01:11.879 a Hindu telegram. Yeah, okay, so he's quoting a person on a 2166 03:01:11.959 --> 03:01:20.360 Hindu telegram saying that the Pentecostal church is just like demonic manifestations of Hindus. 2167 03:01:20.079 --> 03:01:24.600 Yes, Father Surfer Rose was great, Low pen ten dollars is off topic. 2168 03:01:24.719 --> 03:01:31.079 But there's a fourth book by Quickly called Weapons Systems and Political Stability. 2169 03:01:31.159 --> 03:01:33.200 Yeah, I don't have that when I bought his Evolution of Civilization's book, 2170 03:01:33.799 --> 03:01:37.239 but I don't have the one that you're talking about. It's a sequel to 2171 03:01:37.680 --> 03:01:41.440 Tragi Hope. That's interesting. I didn't know that. I mean, Angle 2172 03:01:41.440 --> 03:01:45.840 American Establishment's kind of a sequel. But it's a book that was written the 2173 03:01:45.879 --> 03:01:48.319 last twelve years of his life. I'll have to get that, Thank you, 2174 03:01:48.360 --> 03:01:52.879 LoWPAN Caleb of three dollars. I'm going to read these quick because my 2175 03:01:52.879 --> 03:02:00.479 mind is turning in the most prostant for ins at Orthodoxy's contradictory because he says 2176 03:02:00.639 --> 03:02:03.360 I baptized infants. Because wait, we say I'm baptized infants don't go to 2177 03:02:03.360 --> 03:02:11.799 Hell. Professions does not say they go to Hell. Uh. He says 2178 03:02:11.799 --> 03:02:20.559 it's a contradiction. It's not a contradiction. Stelio's ten dollars. What would 2179 03:02:20.559 --> 03:02:26.239 be the response to a Catholic? He says that Saint Justinian is a heretic 2180 03:02:26.479 --> 03:02:37.799 when the Orthodox Church accepts. Read the Kenneth Vasha book Saint Justinian Christology Saint 2181 03:02:37.879 --> 03:02:43.799 Justinian Kenneth Vasha, w E. S c H. I've never heard that 2182 03:02:43.840 --> 03:02:48.239 he reposed as an ethartodoctist. I've not heard that talk. Who have five 2183 03:02:48.280 --> 03:02:56.399 dollars? In answer to a fellow who was thinking about confession when I was 2184 03:02:56.440 --> 03:03:03.440 an Orthodox catechimum, my priest wanted me to confess periodically in a practiced, 2185 03:03:03.680 --> 03:03:11.639 non sacramental way. But he's talking about confessing to his Catholic priest. So 2186 03:03:11.559 --> 03:03:18.000 you can't confess in a non sacramental way? Or did you mean as a 2187 03:03:18.040 --> 03:03:20.399 catechumen to him? Maybe that's what you meant. I think that's what you 2188 03:03:20.440 --> 03:03:24.280 meant. Since Sara Hippocert three dollars thirty seasons is a coherent for Orthodox to 2189 03:03:24.319 --> 03:03:33.559 reject the liberal paradigm while thinking that free market is the best economic system. 2190 03:03:33.879 --> 03:03:39.719 You can go back and watch my old podcast, the Critiquing Libertarian Economics. 2191 03:03:39.040 --> 03:03:43.479 Any last, Roman Catholics, I'm not taking anything except raise your hand for 2192 03:03:43.600 --> 03:03:48.440 Roman Catholic all right, no more, I can't take it anymore. My 2193 03:03:48.520 --> 03:03:50.879 mind is mush. Thank you, guys, appreciate that I'll be sure and 2194 03:03:50.920 --> 03:03:54.520 have over to chalk dot com. He's promo go j forty four Life Go 2195 03:03:54.559 --> 03:03:58.760 get tickets to our live event June twenty second in Vegas. Thank you, guys,