1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:39,880 The the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 2 00:00:42,039 --> 00:01:32,599 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 3 00:01:36,359 --> 00:02:17,159 the the the mm hmm. I had to eat between streams, so oh 4 00:02:17,199 --> 00:02:24,599 all right, always down for a impromptu discussion, and I had to eat 5 00:02:24,599 --> 00:02:30,479 really quick between the last live stream in this one. So thank you just 6 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:43,639 swallowing my giblets, swallowing my gravy filled with giblets. I'm not sure what 7 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,240 a giblet is, but that's what I asked Jamie to make, and being 8 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:53,639 a good wife, she did it. She made me roast giblets, all 9 00:02:53,759 --> 00:03:01,360 right. So now sovereign brought people misunderstand I'm not debating sovereign bra So he 10 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:07,599 raised the question of, hey, what is the issue between trying to see 11 00:03:07,599 --> 00:03:15,520 how he phrased it, Orthodox and Roman Catholics of ten fifty four, Why 12 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:21,680 did the Eastern Orthodox Church reject Rum's claim to people's supremacy at the Schism of 13 00:03:21,719 --> 00:03:25,560 ten fifty four? What was the reasoning of Constantinople. I am struggling to 14 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:30,919 find a succinct answer to this, and then he says, maybe this isn't 15 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:35,080 the right question. Maybe a better question is when did the Romancolic Church officially 16 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:42,360 reject the Catholic doctrine of papal supremacy. And then he says that we should 17 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:46,000 bring in, you know, some other people. He's listen, he's popped 18 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,120 on here, So I'll add him as a speaker and then we'll open it 19 00:03:49,199 --> 00:03:53,360 up here in a little bit. If you want to phrase your question, 20 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:54,240 I don't want to put words in your mouth. If you want to, 21 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,360 if you want to say anything, if not, you don't have to. 22 00:04:00,039 --> 00:04:02,120 Hey, what's up, Jay? How are you good? Dude? How 23 00:04:02,159 --> 00:04:06,599 are you? I'm chilling. I'm chilling. Thanks for having me and being 24 00:04:06,639 --> 00:04:11,439 willing to host this discussion. Sure, thanks for bringing me into the chat. 25 00:04:12,599 --> 00:04:15,439 Yeah, absolutely, So I want to give a little bit of like 26 00:04:15,639 --> 00:04:23,879 context on why I would ask this question before I explained the question and where 27 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:29,639 I was going with it, if that's okay. Yeah, So for anybody 28 00:04:29,639 --> 00:04:31,480 listening who's been following me for a while and anybody who doesn't know. So, 29 00:04:31,519 --> 00:04:35,839 I'm technically a non denominational Protestant, have been for nine years now, 30 00:04:36,639 --> 00:04:42,160 and I have a number of Orthodox friends and Catholic friends, and over the 31 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,560 years, as I've been speaking about the faith with them. You know, 32 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,600 when you speak to someone who's deep into Orthodoxy or Catholicism, you just you 33 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:55,319 realize how much more there is to the faith than you find in Protestantism. 34 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,959 You know, with the sacraments and all of the teachings of both churches, 35 00:05:00,639 --> 00:05:03,279 you know, Protestantant Protestantism kind of leaves a lot on the table, so 36 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:08,360 to speak. And so I've been, you know, I've been curious about 37 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,680 about both, and I've been kind of moving towards both, yearning for, 38 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,279 uh, the opportunity to get deeper into the faith. And I've spoken with 39 00:05:16,319 --> 00:05:24,439 both Catholics and orthodox And the thing about the thing about both Catholicism and Orthodoxy 40 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,800 is that they make, each of them individually, makes specific claims to truth. 41 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:34,879 And one of the reasons why I find Catholicism very interesting is because it's 42 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:44,120 it's very Western in its thought right, Like the Catholics have articulated every single 43 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:49,519 imaginable aspect of the faith. And as someone who enjoys reason and logic and 44 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:54,120 having things articulated, and as someone who has many questions about the faith, 45 00:05:54,319 --> 00:05:59,199 that aspect of things it's dealing to me. Now with that said, there's 46 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:04,839 the question of the And this is something that that I've been you know, 47 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:12,680 wrestling with because the papacy and the supremacy of the pope, there's a lot 48 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,439 to make sense out of there as someone who's new to kind of both Orthodoxy 49 00:06:16,519 --> 00:06:25,839 and Catholicism. And Catholics are are absolutely militant about protecting the pope, protecting 50 00:06:25,879 --> 00:06:29,360 his authority. I mean, it's you know, their religion essentially revolves around 51 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:33,120 that, aside from obviously you know, the teachings of the Bible and so 52 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:38,199 on and so forth. Like the papacy is really what seems to differentiate it 53 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,879 in large part from Orthodoxy as far as I can tell, you know, 54 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:47,120 there's like Orthodoxy is like much more mystical than than Roman Catholicism and so on 55 00:06:47,199 --> 00:06:55,399 and so forth. But the papacy is like this central thing. And when 56 00:06:55,439 --> 00:06:59,519 I was looking at the history of the Great Schism, there's just there's so 57 00:06:59,639 --> 00:07:02,439 much to pull apart there. But it seems like, basically, to summarize 58 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:08,199 it, it seems like the Rome was like, hey, we have supreme 59 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:13,319 authority, and the East was like, no, you don't, like we're 60 00:07:13,319 --> 00:07:17,879 not going to respect your supreme authority. This is a gross oversimplification, but 61 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,480 it kind of seems like that's at the root. And when I read so 62 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:28,639 you shared Dictatus Pope on my thread and I read through that, and I'm 63 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:34,040 like pretty blown away by this document. Speaking frankly, it just seems like 64 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:40,319 it seems like the East kind of disrespected the claimed authority of Rome, and 65 00:07:40,319 --> 00:07:44,600 then Roman response was like, Hey, you know what, We're going to 66 00:07:44,639 --> 00:07:48,680 dictate that we have like complete and total authority over like all of Christendom and 67 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,399 it's going to be concentrated in the hands of the pope, and anybody who 68 00:07:51,399 --> 00:07:56,279 disagrees with that is excommunicated. It kind of seems like it was like a 69 00:07:56,319 --> 00:07:59,240 massive power grab, and I'm just I'm trying to make sense out of all 70 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,360 of this, Like, I don't know, I don't know if the Roman 71 00:08:01,399 --> 00:08:03,879 Catholic you know, claim is correct. It could be it could be false. 72 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:05,560 I don't know. I'm just trying to make sense out of all of 73 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,199 it, you know, Yeah, sure, I Mean, the first thing 74 00:08:09,199 --> 00:08:13,480 I would say is that when it comes to the Schism ten fifty four, 75 00:08:13,839 --> 00:08:20,120 there's not really one thing. There's sort of an evolving and sort of piling 76 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:24,160 up series of things that occur that lead to the schism. At that time, 77 00:08:24,199 --> 00:08:31,600 there was already disagreement over the addition of the Phillioquay to the creed in 78 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:33,720 the time of Saint In the time of Saint Photius in the eight hundreds, 79 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:41,000 there was already discussion of this, and Photius in his letters complains that Frankish 80 00:08:41,039 --> 00:08:46,519 missionaries had been sent under Charlemagne into territories that were Orthodox Bulgarian areas and so 81 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,320 forth, and that they were foisting this creed with the addition of the Philioquay. 82 00:08:50,399 --> 00:08:56,159 So already there was dispute, and this is what why there's two different 83 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:00,480 councils between the East and the West, which are called the Eastern. It's 84 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:07,519 the Eastern eighth Council and the Western eighth Council. Pub Leo the third Uhl 85 00:09:07,799 --> 00:09:15,679 explicitly forbade altering the creed, So even as late as that that period it 86 00:09:15,799 --> 00:09:20,759 was not acceptable to change the creed. But it's actly let me see what 87 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:30,120 Leo the third dates were that may have been Contentinople eighth sevent Is that what 88 00:09:30,159 --> 00:09:35,320 you're thinking of Publio the third is he has pope from seven to ninety five 89 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,840 to eight sixteen. Yeah, so it's even earlier, but I mean he's 90 00:09:39,879 --> 00:09:45,519 famous for that position. Then I think the pope after him is the one 91 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:50,120 that says no, actually it is okay to have the addition to the Creed. 92 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,240 So basically, I mean it's not just about the the Creed, it's 93 00:09:54,279 --> 00:09:58,799 also about other claims that are being made, which, as you correctly pointed 94 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:03,759 out, by the time of Dictatus Pope, which is the Gregorian period, 95 00:10:03,159 --> 00:10:09,399 this is really where we start to see an alteration towards explicit temporal powers. 96 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,639 So if I was to lay out one of the strongest arguments against this position, 97 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:18,480 it's not really about whether the pope is first among equals or first in 98 00:10:18,519 --> 00:10:20,080 the church, or he'd be signed a lot of the councils. First, 99 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:24,360 the pope never called an ecumenical council, Okay, they're always called by the 100 00:10:24,399 --> 00:10:28,360 emperors, first of all, So that for us is a sign that they're 101 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:33,200 not operating on the mindset of Vatican one. Vatican one places this is the 102 00:10:33,919 --> 00:10:39,200 later council in the eighteen hundreds that places essentially all the authority in the Church 103 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,559 ultimately on the office of the Roman Sea. So he's declared to be at 104 00:10:43,639 --> 00:10:48,799 Vatican one infallible he's not able to teach error. And by extension, I 105 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,720 would argue the assumption of Vatican One is that you can't have a pope that's 106 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:56,279 a heretic, so because it would mean that the Roman Sea can error, 107 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:00,600 in the Roman Sea can defect, so you have the indefective ability of the 108 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,159 Roman See, which is taught again later on, but we already have in 109 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:09,799 the first thousand years, particularly the case of Honorius the sixth Ecumenical Council, 110 00:11:09,879 --> 00:11:13,240 he's condemned as a heretic. So I'm just making the point here that the 111 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:18,399 Church in the first thousand years, especially the sixth Econmenical Council, certainly didn't 112 00:11:18,399 --> 00:11:24,320 have the Vatican One mindset because they saw a fit to excommunicate a pope for 113 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:28,879 actually teaching theological error. Has nothing to do with his private opinions, as 114 00:11:28,919 --> 00:11:33,559 Roman Catholics say, because when the council excommunicates and they don't adjudicate between private 115 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:37,440 opinions and public documents, they simply say that he taught error in one of 116 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:39,559 the letters that he wrote to someone else, and he taught the Monothelite error. 117 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:46,840 So this idea that the Vatican one definition, which is what is the 118 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:52,960 burden of proof for the Roman Catholic You either have to say that this idea 119 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,279 of Vatican One evolved over time, this is the idea of doctrinal development, 120 00:11:56,919 --> 00:12:01,360 or you argue, as Satis Cognitium of the thirteenth says, it was always 121 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:07,480 the teaching of the Church from the earliest days, recognized by all. So 122 00:12:07,639 --> 00:12:11,120 it can't be both of those. Those are mutually exclusive positions. So most 123 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:15,960 Roman Catholic apologists and defenders end up having to kind of choose between these two 124 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:20,559 options, and I think either one they choose is kind of devastating, because 125 00:12:20,919 --> 00:12:24,480 if it's a development doctrine, then we're kind of at the position of like 126 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:31,480 Vatican two developments which go in the direction of theological liberalism, even perennialism or 127 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,559 universalism. If you look at Lumgentium sixteen or Nostre Attat, which are Vatican 128 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:39,600 two documents, or the statement that the Jews are elder brothers in the faith, 129 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,919 and that you know a lot of the statements that the Vatican has made 130 00:12:43,919 --> 00:12:48,679 about the Jews post Vatican Two, I mean, these are all really retroactive 131 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,240 or revisionist positions based on the idea of evolution. Of doctrines. So in 132 00:12:52,279 --> 00:12:58,159 other words, there's nothing about evolution of doctrine that necessitates evolving quote unquote into 133 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:03,120 a conservative doctrine. It can, in fact involve evolve into something liberal. 134 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,720 I would argue that the idea of doctrinal development itself is actually a kind of 135 00:13:05,759 --> 00:13:11,039 a liberal idea if you look at even though Cardinal Newman and people who proposed 136 00:13:11,039 --> 00:13:15,320 this idea might have been somewhat conservative, there's no there's no idea, there's 137 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,559 no reason why this necessarily would be a conservative development. But if you go 138 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,559 with the director the argument of well, it was always the teaching of the 139 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:28,000 of the Church that the roman Sea was universal and its supremacy, its authority. 140 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,559 Uh, it was always indefectible. It was always an errant. And 141 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,720 you notice in one of the one of the propositions of the thought as Pope 142 00:13:35,919 --> 00:13:39,919 is that the roman See can be judged by none. I think that the 143 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:41,679 roman Se has never aired and never will err into the end of the world. 144 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,919 These are ideas of ineffectibility. So, but this is really impossible. 145 00:13:48,519 --> 00:13:52,840 Uh. If an ecumenical council, particularly the sixth Ecumenical Council, is condemning 146 00:13:52,879 --> 00:14:00,840 Popenoori's for heresy. Three later three later councils reaffirm that that excommunication Honorius for 147 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,919 heresy, it's not stated to be a private opinion. It's actually explicitly said 148 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:09,799 to be to be heresy. So what we have in Dictatus Pope under this 149 00:14:09,919 --> 00:14:15,399 Grigorian reform period is really the pope becoming a geopolitical power. And yeah, 150 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,960 that's what it to me. Yeah, yeah, And now a Roman calvic 151 00:14:18,039 --> 00:14:24,759 might say, well, maybe dictas Poppy isn't like totally dogmatic or it wasn't 152 00:14:24,799 --> 00:14:28,399 really like totally authoritative. This can be something that we can throw away. 153 00:14:28,879 --> 00:14:33,399 The problem is that multiple Roman Catholic scholars nowadays admit that this period of the 154 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:39,000 Gregorian Reforms of the eleventh century, this would be like Kongar Francis de Vornik 155 00:14:39,639 --> 00:14:43,960 again recognized Roman calthoc historians and scholars, this is the revolution period. It's 156 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:52,879 called the papal revolution because the Church shifts away from sonodal ecumenical council approach to 157 00:14:52,679 --> 00:14:58,559 a monarchical papal approach, meaning now that for example, the pope will decide 158 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,279 every bishop in the world. Okay, prior to this, the pope did 159 00:15:01,279 --> 00:15:05,039 not determine who would be every bishop in the world. This is a total 160 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,519 ecclesial renovation. And we know that this is the direction that the Church went, 161 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:15,840 because even if you were to throw out Dictatus Pope, you need to 162 00:15:15,879 --> 00:15:22,159 look no further than unem Sanctum of Boniface the Eighth, which actually says not 163 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:24,879 only that you have to believe in the Roman Sea and be in commune with 164 00:15:24,919 --> 00:15:28,080 it to be saved, you actually have to believe in the doctrine of the 165 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:33,120 temporal supremacy of the Roman bishop to be saved. Now where in the first 166 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,080 thousand years of the Church was there this idea that to be saved you had 167 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:43,080 to submit to the pope as a geopolitical world power. Nowhere? Why was 168 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,919 it there? It was backed up via forgeries. The donation of Constantine most 169 00:15:46,919 --> 00:15:54,399 famously backed up this idea of the necessity of salvation via the via the temporal 170 00:15:54,399 --> 00:15:58,159 supremacy of the pope. Now Vatican wanaccu mean Vatican two. The Pope took 171 00:15:58,159 --> 00:16:02,440 off its crippled triple crown, and the triple crown that he used to wear 172 00:16:02,559 --> 00:16:07,200 signified his authority in every realm, including heaven and earth. So the taking 173 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,879 off of the papal tr The Triple Crown signified that at Vatican Two they would 174 00:16:11,879 --> 00:16:19,240 no longer accept or try to promote this doctrine of temporal geopolitical supremacy. So 175 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:25,840 what was necessary for salvation at the time of Boniface the eighth and thirteen oh 176 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,840 two nowadays isn't even necessary for salvation. In fact, post Vatican two they 177 00:16:29,879 --> 00:16:34,519 actually say that countries should decatholicize, there should be a de christianization of the 178 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,559 state post Vatican two. This is in some of the Vatican two documents. 179 00:16:38,759 --> 00:16:44,559 So that's a clear change in doctrine in terms of em what's necessary for salvation. 180 00:16:44,639 --> 00:16:45,840 Now, there's many other things that can be said, but I think 181 00:16:45,919 --> 00:16:52,200 that it's not just a question of the philioqua. It's actually centering on this 182 00:16:52,320 --> 00:17:02,200 shift away from the notion of a church that's synodal, that's concilier, into 183 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:06,880 the direction of the papal autocracy. And last thing I'll say is that the 184 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:11,119 recent Vatican this is papally approved, by the way, for you Roman Catholics 185 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:17,240 who are going to hand wave this the Alexandria Document of June twenty twenty three, 186 00:17:18,079 --> 00:17:26,319 this is the council that discusses issues of relating to the Eastern churches and 187 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,480 to the Orthodox. This is a part two to the CH eighty document from 188 00:17:30,519 --> 00:17:36,680 some years earlier. The CH eighty document ends by saying that they admit that 189 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:41,119 the Roman Sea did not have universal jurisdiction and premiacy in the first thousand years. 190 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:45,720 That's the most important element of that document. It's at the very bottom. 191 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,319 Can you can you repeat that one more time? Sure's the G eighty 192 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:52,599 document. Let me pull it up. It's c h I E T I. 193 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,480 If you look at the very last proposition, I'll scroll down to the 194 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:07,960 bottom of it. It says proposition nineteen. Here. Over the centuries, 195 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:11,880 many appeals were made to the Bishop of Rome from the East in disciplinary matters. 196 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,880 Attempts were made at the Council or the Synod of Sartica. This is 197 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:22,839 what's called the Canons of Sartica. Sometimes Roman Catholics try to argue that this 198 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,920 teaches papal supremacy. Of course it doesn't. If you read the actual canons, 199 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:32,440 it's about it's about re establishing trials. It's not appealing to the Roman 200 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:37,720 bishop. As the final word, this admits that it says that it establishes 201 00:18:37,799 --> 00:18:41,000 rules for such a procedure. Sartica was received at the Council of Trollo. 202 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:45,599 Trello is a council that's accepted by the Orthodox and is accepted of the Seven 203 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:51,240 the Communical Council. Roman Catholics don't accept Trolo. The Canons of Sartica determined 204 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,200 that a bishop who had been condemned could appeal to Rome, and that later, 205 00:18:53,279 --> 00:18:57,079 if he deemed appropriate, he might order a retrial. Okay, so 206 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:02,839 it's not a de facto Rome says the final word, It's just a retrial. 207 00:19:03,279 --> 00:19:06,319 It was to be conducted by bishops of the province and the neighboring the 208 00:19:06,319 --> 00:19:11,759 bishop's own Sea. Appeals regarding disciplinary matters were also made to Constantinople, so 209 00:19:11,799 --> 00:19:15,960 you could appeal not just to Rome, but also to Constantinople. So Sartica 210 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,880 is not a defense of Vatican I stuff like they want, then, it 211 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,680 says. Such appeals to major seeds were always treated in a sonoda way. 212 00:19:23,599 --> 00:19:29,039 Appeals to the Bishop of Rome expressed the communion of the church, but the 213 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:33,799 Bishop of Rome did not exercise canonical authority over the churches of the East. 214 00:19:34,279 --> 00:19:41,359 So here you have a papally approved admission she eighty document twenty sixteen, and 215 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:48,440 then they reconvened this Eastern papally approved synod meeting in twenty twenty three last year, 216 00:19:49,039 --> 00:19:52,839 and it's called the Alexandria Document. And what's amazing about this is that 217 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:59,839 the Alexandria Document goes even further to admit about ninety percent of the criticisms that 218 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,599 Orthodox make of the Roman Catholic Church. And I'll end up I'll end with 219 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,680 this part. That does not mean that we're moving towards reunion. What this 220 00:20:07,799 --> 00:20:14,319 means is that the papacy, out of geopolitical and ecumenist motivations, is admitting 221 00:20:14,519 --> 00:20:18,720 that many of the criticisms of the Orthodox are actually correct. It even admits 222 00:20:18,759 --> 00:20:22,720 that the false decretals, the false donation of Constantine. The very things I 223 00:20:22,839 --> 00:20:27,319 mentioned are mentioned within the third paragraph as basically forgeries that were used to prop 224 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:32,680 up things like the temporal supremacy of the pope. The Roman See can be 225 00:20:32,759 --> 00:20:37,119 judged by none that's actually based on a forgery, as well, that famous 226 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,599 statement that still I think in Kenon Law and the Romancolic Church anyway, So 227 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:45,599 all of these things are really admitted in the Alexandria document, and what it 228 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,039 means is that Vatican one is not true, and a Vatican one is not 229 00:20:48,079 --> 00:20:56,079 true in the extent of its explicit definitions of what the universal ancient historic jurisdiction 230 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:00,960 of the Roman sea is. It's in defectibility, it's infallibility, supreme teaching 231 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:06,400 office, and so forth. Then Roman Catholicism is false because it's a system 232 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:11,880 that's based on a consistent dogmatic statement over the centuries. So you can't have 233 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,119 ecumenical councils. But whether it's Vatican two if you're a triad, or whether 234 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,400 it's Vatican one if you're a novus auto Catholic, you gotta submit to all 235 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,920 of these. You can't have your cake and eat it too. And if 236 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:32,240 one dogmatic pronouncement contradicts, the whole system falls apart. So that document that 237 00:21:32,279 --> 00:21:37,160 you just read from am I correct in understanding that it was conceding that the 238 00:21:37,279 --> 00:21:41,240 pope did not have supremacy for a certain number of the first centuries, of 239 00:21:41,319 --> 00:21:45,599 the first thousand years or whatever it was. Yeah, the first document, 240 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,599 the Chi eighty document, is admitting that there was not universal supremacy of the 241 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:55,920 Roman bishop in the first millennium. And then the second document is admitting that 242 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,880 all of this stuff was really propped up around things like forgeries, the false 243 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,119 Decreidls, the donation of Constantine. There's actually many more of these, Simokian 244 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,799 forgeries, the Galatian decredles, on and on. There's a whole bunch of 245 00:22:07,839 --> 00:22:11,200 these that were used for centuries to prop up which now the Vatican admits, 246 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,000 as do most scholars, that these are forgeries. So they're not legitimate documents. 247 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,200 They're not the only things that were used, but they were very they 248 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:26,160 were used very heavily for many centuries to prop this up. That's a pretty 249 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:32,680 big deal. If I could just of note on that on that topic specifically, 250 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:37,160 the donation of Constantine was what was referenced Bipopolio the ninth pat the schism. 251 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,319 That's literally the document in his papabowl when he excommunicates content and ople that's 252 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:45,839 the document he references to justify it. And this is a document that is 253 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:51,359 now considered a forgery. So it's it's it's not just a general attatation to 254 00:22:51,519 --> 00:22:59,720 these forgeries, like it's literally the document they used justify the schism. So 255 00:23:00,319 --> 00:23:03,240 you know, as I look at this from a bird's eye view. Obviously 256 00:23:03,319 --> 00:23:11,359 that the claim from both Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox is that, you know, 257 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,039 everyone says we are the one true Church, We're the Early Church, 258 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,079 right, we trace our roots back to the early Church. And obviously both 259 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:23,279 churches can to some degree make that claim. The question is whether or not. 260 00:23:26,079 --> 00:23:30,759 The question is which one can fully make the claim. And my personal 261 00:23:30,839 --> 00:23:34,400 leaning the more and more I learn is towards Orthodox being able to make that 262 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,559 claim. But I obviously haven't heard the full picture from both sides yet. 263 00:23:38,599 --> 00:23:42,880 I mean, there's there's a ton to the history here, and I want 264 00:23:45,319 --> 00:23:48,920 I'm sorry, I just wanted to add something on that. If you after 265 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:56,599 you're finished, go ahead. Yeah. So the question of the papacy again, 266 00:23:57,039 --> 00:24:03,720 it really seems like it's primacy came into effect like during the eleventh century 267 00:24:03,759 --> 00:24:06,839 and then after the eleventh century, and it sounds like prior to that, 268 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:14,079 Jay, from what you're describing of the history of the church, major decisions 269 00:24:14,079 --> 00:24:18,079 within the church were not determined by a pope, but were instead determined by 270 00:24:18,279 --> 00:24:22,559 synodal councils. Is that correct? Well, yeah, I mean that the 271 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:30,119 church's approach is concilier, that's what the Vatican Document is admitting, and it's 272 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,519 basically saying, you know, when it comes to the Vatican One idea of 273 00:24:33,559 --> 00:24:37,680 the papacy, that's something that it's something that evolved pretty clearly. So they're 274 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:42,200 going with the Newman coldinal Newman route of the evolution or the development of doctrine 275 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:47,119 versus the idea of Satis cognitium, which is Leo the thirteenth cent cyclical, 276 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:52,240 that it was always there as the you know, ecclesiological structure and modeled the 277 00:24:52,319 --> 00:24:56,160 church to be you know, Vatican one papal. So so yeah, I 278 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,640 mean, I mean that's that's what Catholics today say. They say Peter was 279 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,680 the first pope, right, and there was you know, papal succession all 280 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,000 the way down from Peter to you know, the current pope Francis. Well, 281 00:25:07,799 --> 00:25:11,000 well, let me let me add a little nuance here, because as 282 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:15,640 Orthodox we agree that in we believe in the same doctrine of appostolic succession. 283 00:25:15,519 --> 00:25:21,640 Where we differ is not so much whether Peter has a lineage or a succession 284 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,680 at Rome. We think he does. But in the Orthodox mindset, if 285 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:27,920 you read aaron As for example, in book three, excuse me book four, 286 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,799 I think of against Heresies. He explains that the greatness of Rome is 287 00:25:32,839 --> 00:25:37,119 precisely because of the presence of Peter and Paul. So it's nothing specific to 288 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,000 Peter, it's Peter and Paul. That's the ancient tradition, even in Rome 289 00:25:41,039 --> 00:25:45,079 to this day. If you go to the latter in Basilica, which is 290 00:25:45,079 --> 00:25:48,880 the ancient Basilica of the Roman Church when it was Orthodox, you'll see up 291 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:56,359 at the very front the two sort of equal uh statues of Peter and Paul 292 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,920 are. They're situated very equal, so they're they're facing each other at the 293 00:26:00,079 --> 00:26:03,240 very front of the church. And I think that speaks to the ancient tradition 294 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,759 of Rome being the see of Peter and Paul. Even all the way up 295 00:26:07,759 --> 00:26:11,319 into Saint Gregory the Great when you read his letters, he says that the 296 00:26:11,319 --> 00:26:17,160 Petrine Sea is Rome, Antioch and Alexandria. So even at that time there 297 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:21,920 was the idea that you know, Peter established his succession not just at Rome, 298 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:23,759 but also at Antioch and in the in the Orthodox Church, that's where 299 00:26:23,799 --> 00:26:29,599 we get the idea of Antiochian Orthodoxy. They derive their descent also from Peter. 300 00:26:30,519 --> 00:26:33,799 And so when Rome is presented with that, Well, they say, 301 00:26:33,839 --> 00:26:36,640 well, but Peter was martyred in Rome. You see, so there's a 302 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:41,119 special significance to Rome, which then court, you know, somehow grants this 303 00:26:41,319 --> 00:26:48,440 special terrorism of infallibility to the descent in Rome. And yeah, and it's 304 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:53,319 not just infallibility, it's also indefectibility all of these other you know, attenuating 305 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,720 doctrines as pro Vatican One. But again, church history doesn't bear that out. 306 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:03,200 And if you want an easier, quicker route, I would say the 307 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,480 easiest way to see what the mindset of the Church was in the first thousand 308 00:27:06,559 --> 00:27:10,559 years, to see if it was papal or if it was concilier, is 309 00:27:10,599 --> 00:27:15,000 to look at what's called the canons of the councils. So each ecumenical council 310 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,720 establishes what are called canons, which are basically just church law. And these 311 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:26,640 ecumenical canons at every single ecumenical council do not align with the Vatican One mindset 312 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:32,319 of the Pope being the supreme, universal, infallible, final word on everything 313 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:40,519 doctrinal. That's why every council has canons that conflict with papal supremacy and assume 314 00:27:40,799 --> 00:27:45,079 conciliarism and For example, we have canons that talk about the only thing that's 315 00:27:45,079 --> 00:27:51,279 needed for a bishop is to have two bishops and a metropolitan to ordain a 316 00:27:51,319 --> 00:27:56,799 bishop. There's no mention of the Roman See being necessary for the ordination of 317 00:27:56,799 --> 00:28:00,440 bishops. Throughout the world, we have statements about the limitations of jurisdiction, 318 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:07,720 and there's no explications in these canons that the Roman Sea is exempted from the 319 00:28:07,799 --> 00:28:12,880 limitations of jurisdictions. These are consistent canonical statements and teachings, and so then 320 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,720 what Rome has to do is say, well, yeah, but you know, 321 00:28:15,759 --> 00:28:18,920 the Pope basically just can throw out all the canons that he wants. 322 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:23,480 He's above those. But the councils don't treat the Roman Sea as if they're 323 00:28:23,559 --> 00:28:27,440 not subject to the canons. The attitude of every council is that the Roman 324 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:32,039 Sea, just like every other sea, is subject to the canons. And 325 00:28:32,079 --> 00:28:36,359 that's why it's so great to have the Vatican now admitting this nowadays, and 326 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:37,720 that's why the Trads have to just say, well, I don't care what 327 00:28:37,759 --> 00:28:44,279 the Vatican says anymore on a tried cat and I handwave whatever Francis and the 328 00:28:44,359 --> 00:28:48,559 Vatican post Vatican two structure does and says unless I like it and decide that 329 00:28:48,599 --> 00:28:56,599 it's trad So was Tictatus pope canonized with unam sanctum basically, well, I'm 330 00:28:56,599 --> 00:29:02,680 just saying that, so that the point is that at that time there's no 331 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,759 clear It's not like there was a clear expert because that Dictata's poppy was included 332 00:29:06,799 --> 00:29:10,519 in the Pope's Register of the year of ten seventy five, so he certainly 333 00:29:10,759 --> 00:29:15,240 expected it to be accepted. That is Pope Gregory the seventh right when it 334 00:29:15,279 --> 00:29:18,480 says it was included in the Pope's register. What does that mean exactly? 335 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,680 That just means that he saw it as official, his official teaching, and 336 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,240 what he expected. Now, whether he had in his mind that everybody would 337 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:33,000 do that is you could perhaps debate that, but it doesn't really matter about 338 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,039 whether that, like each of these propositions, is quote dogmatic, because the 339 00:29:37,079 --> 00:29:41,880 main point is that what this is really about is about his temporal supremacy, 340 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,279 and you can go to you know, unum sanctum, which explicitly does make 341 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:52,319 the temporal supremacy necessary for salvation. So, in other words, unum sanctum 342 00:29:52,359 --> 00:29:57,880 really is the dogmatic statement that shows that the attitude of Dictatus Pope is expected 343 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:03,519 to be accepted even if every single proposition isn't necessarily part of when I'm saying, 344 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:08,839 does that make sense? It's expected to be accepted for your salvation. 345 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:15,720 What's expected to be accepted for salvation is that you have to believe not just 346 00:30:15,759 --> 00:30:18,039 in the supremacy of the Roman bishop and you have to be in communion with 347 00:30:18,119 --> 00:30:22,119 him, you also have to believe in the temporal power of the pope and 348 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,799 he dictated as dictated in I believe so now. But even if you think 349 00:30:26,799 --> 00:30:32,519 that it's not dogmatic, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, I'm 350 00:30:32,519 --> 00:30:37,440 saying if I think I'm looking at this and okay, So for those that 351 00:30:37,519 --> 00:30:41,480 are listening, Jay, is there any possibility you could pin your tweet where 352 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:47,880 you linked Diktatus Pope on my thread to the jumbo tron. It is important 353 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:49,880 for people to read because when I read through this, my mind was pretty 354 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,880 blood right. Well, but the reason I'm talking about when I'm sanctum is 355 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,759 that I already know all the Roman Catholic responses. I used to be Roman 356 00:30:56,799 --> 00:31:00,599 Catholic for many years, So they're just gonna say, oh, well, 357 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,240 we don't have to accept that because it's not quote ex cathedral. Now, 358 00:31:03,599 --> 00:31:07,519 this is an whole other problem of epistemology, which is that there's no wait 359 00:31:07,519 --> 00:31:10,759 wait, wait, wait, wait, before you go on that, I 360 00:31:10,759 --> 00:31:12,039 want to hear that. But before you go on that, we have a 361 00:31:12,039 --> 00:31:15,240 lot of listeners that are like hearing us talk about this, and this is 362 00:31:15,319 --> 00:31:19,279 like this is like high in the sky church history for like the lay people, 363 00:31:19,319 --> 00:31:22,039 and they don't they need to know what this document says. I want 364 00:31:22,039 --> 00:31:26,400 them to see it, like I'm reading it right now. Number nine, 365 00:31:26,599 --> 00:31:32,680 on Dictatus Pope says the Pope alone, that of the Pope alone, all 366 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:37,680 princes shall kiss the feet. Number ten says that his name alone shall be 367 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,279 spoken in the churches. This is the only name in the world. It 368 00:31:41,359 --> 00:31:47,319 is permitted to the pope to depose emperors. Number nineteen says he the pope 369 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,799 may be judged by No. One. Number twenty two says that the Roman 370 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,759 Church has never aired, nor will it air to all eternity the Scripture bearing 371 00:31:56,799 --> 00:32:02,359 witness. I mean twenty two obviously so central Catholic teaching teaching. But nine 372 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:07,839 through twelve like this is like like it's like I guess I'm asking if you 373 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,759 don't. Is it Catholic teaching that if you don't believe in these things according 374 00:32:10,799 --> 00:32:14,599 to Unum sanctum, if you don't believe in these things, like you can't 375 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,200 attain salvation. Is that? Is that? Basically? So here's what I'm 376 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:23,119 saying. Yes, basically, so Lunum sanctum is affirming the basic principle that 377 00:32:23,559 --> 00:32:28,319 you have to believe in the temporal supremacy of the pope to be saved. 378 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,839 So it doesn't really matter about every single one of the propositions because a Roman 379 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,119 Catholic's gonna say, well, these aren't es cathedral to follow these, that's 380 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:38,400 the first thing they're gonna say. And I can say, well, I 381 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,880 can grant you that, because it doesn't really matter because you do have to 382 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,039 accept Dunum sanctum as dogma. And it basically makes the point that you must 383 00:32:46,119 --> 00:32:50,200 believe in the temporal supremacy of the Roman bishop to be saved. And if 384 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,920 the temporal supremacy the Roman bishop to be saved is dogma, then all the 385 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,480 things in Unum sanctam follow, I mean, in dictatas pape follow. Then 386 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,680 he can say, you know, his word is law in terms of the 387 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:05,839 temporal's fear, he can depose and call armies, because you understand, after 388 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:12,519 this, the pope starts having a standing army, right, yeah, which 389 00:33:12,599 --> 00:33:15,039 I mean honestly, like, I don't have much of a problem with that's 390 00:33:15,079 --> 00:33:16,200 pretty dope when you've got to well, no, but it's not on. 391 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:21,920 Well, but here's the thing though, Well, here's the thing though. 392 00:33:22,279 --> 00:33:25,759 The canons of the earlier councils, like Calconon, for example, forbid any 393 00:33:25,839 --> 00:33:32,240 cleric from holding civil office. There's a clear teaching of the distinction between temporal 394 00:33:32,279 --> 00:33:37,319 power and spiritual power in Orthodoxy, which is the teaching of the first seven 395 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:42,640 councils. This is the meaning of the double Byzantine, the double headed eagle, 396 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,880 the Byzantine eagle. Right, it's two heads, not one head. 397 00:33:45,079 --> 00:33:51,480 It's two heads, one symbolizing the temporal power and one symbolizing the spiritual power. 398 00:33:52,119 --> 00:33:57,559 Now, you can't blend the two because the canons have already taught and 399 00:33:57,599 --> 00:34:01,400 had already been accepted universally that it cleric cannot be a civil ruler and he 400 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:07,559 can't be a warrior. So it's actually a violation of Church law to mix 401 00:34:07,639 --> 00:34:15,119 these two realms. Now, now let me say also on this point, 402 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:22,159 let me let me find the tweet and i'll I'll put the tightest pop. 403 00:34:22,519 --> 00:34:23,960 Now we have a lot of people who want to jump on. Is that 404 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:29,000 okay with you? Do you? Yeah? I have. I have two 405 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:30,360 other questions for you. Sure, go ahead. Now, So there's a 406 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:35,159 there's a young man who says I'm scared and running, which I've already told 407 00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:37,920 you, bro, We're gonna go to you, dude, Like, just 408 00:34:38,039 --> 00:34:44,119 chill the first question. So the Great Schism, as far as I understand, 409 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:49,320 the disagreement was over unleavened bread and the filioquay. Is that correct? 410 00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:52,519 Now? Those are just again like partial elements, Like the schism ends up 411 00:34:52,519 --> 00:34:59,800 being over the office of the of the Roman see whether he has universal jurisdiction, 412 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:06,760 whether he can unilaterally act outside of his jurisdiction to excommunicate or to control 413 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,639 the liturgy elsewhere or whatever right, in other words, to change the creed? 414 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,880 Does he have that ability? Okay? So that's part of it. 415 00:35:14,519 --> 00:35:19,840 There's also theological divergences that are occurring between a Latin view of how we understand 416 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,840 the Trinity and Grace versus the Orthodox conception of how we understand the Trinity and 417 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:30,159 grace that was already in the dispute going on in terms of Augustinian theology versus 418 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:35,880 the theology the Cappadocians and theosis. Okay, so that's part of it, 419 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,679 as well as the issue of the philioquay, whether there's a double procession or 420 00:35:40,679 --> 00:35:45,679 whether it's a single procession from the Father through the Son. All of these 421 00:35:45,679 --> 00:35:47,400 things are contributing. And then there's other issues that you mentioned as well, 422 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:53,000 such as the bread issue, even things like communing event infants, which the 423 00:35:53,119 --> 00:35:59,039 Orthodox Church has maintained the ancient practice that infants received communion. The Roman Church 424 00:35:59,119 --> 00:36:02,679 changed that Chee Church a band married priest which it used to have. The 425 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,960 Council Trollo teaches that you should have married priests. So there's a whole litany 426 00:36:07,079 --> 00:36:12,519 of things that end up being the source of the schism. Okay, gotcha, 427 00:36:12,559 --> 00:36:15,239 thank you for that. Yeah. And the second question, so, 428 00:36:15,519 --> 00:36:22,280 as far as I understand it, nostre at Tate was created in order to 429 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:28,320 like heal relations between the Catholics and the Jews. And I saw a documented 430 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,320 a few years ago out of the Catholic Church basically saying that the Catholic Church 431 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:40,440 would not authorize officially any mission outreach to Jews to convert them to Christianity, 432 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:45,239 which is like crazy to me, because the Bible says that if Jews don't 433 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:46,920 believe, then they will be cut off from the tree. And you know, 434 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:51,800 they already are broken off because they've they've rejected the Messiah. But if 435 00:36:52,079 --> 00:36:55,559 they don't believe, you know, they're damned. And when I look at 436 00:36:55,559 --> 00:37:02,960 the Catholic Church basically officially stating no, we will not authorize official outreach to 437 00:37:04,159 --> 00:37:07,119 Jews to convert them to Christianity, I look at that and I'm just like, 438 00:37:07,159 --> 00:37:10,719 what's going on here? Like it seems like some sort of I don't 439 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,679 know, I just get like weird vibes, Like it seems like a subversion 440 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,159 from like within the church potentially. I don't know, what do you make 441 00:37:17,199 --> 00:37:22,039 of that? I know that's absolutely correct. In fact, the Vatican has 442 00:37:22,039 --> 00:37:28,360 been putting out documents, not just lumingentium and notes for Tate, but they've 443 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,239 been continuing to put out documents. There was a particularly scandalous one that was 444 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:37,079 approved some years back about the Church's relationship to the Jews, even so called 445 00:37:37,079 --> 00:37:43,039 trad Pope Benedict in his book many religions. One covenant says that, oh, 446 00:37:43,119 --> 00:37:45,119 Jews have a valid reading of the Old Testament, and you know, 447 00:37:45,199 --> 00:37:51,000 there's not a necessity to necessarily convert our elder brothers, is I think something 448 00:37:51,079 --> 00:37:55,199 John Paul the Second said so. No, this is a very notorious error. 449 00:37:55,360 --> 00:38:00,199 And that's precisely because Vatican two is not just about Jews. Vatican who 450 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:05,440 also says that Muslims and Christians worship the same God. It says that Hindus 451 00:38:05,519 --> 00:38:09,239 also call upon God in love and adoration. And this is essentially, you 452 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:14,599 know, perennialism. It's the idea that all the religions ultimately are sort of 453 00:38:14,679 --> 00:38:19,079 masks of God. And this is the basis for Francis creating the multi faith 454 00:38:19,159 --> 00:38:23,239 center. Francis approved this is based on the document that he signed with the 455 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:29,559 Grande mom that we can have a Muslim, Jewish, Christian multi faith center 456 00:38:29,599 --> 00:38:31,960 in Abu Dhabi. Okay, well, that's just apostasy because we don't worship 457 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,000 the same God. If you don't believe in the Triad, then you're not 458 00:38:36,039 --> 00:38:40,360 worshiping the God of Abraham. Because it's basic christology, basic orthodox theology that 459 00:38:40,519 --> 00:38:45,840 Jesus is who's there with Abraham. It's not a Unitarian, generic Muslim god 460 00:38:46,159 --> 00:38:51,159 or a Jewish God. It's father, son and spirit. It's Yahweh, 461 00:38:51,199 --> 00:38:55,239 his angel and his spirit. That's the Old Testament revelation to Moses. Remember 462 00:38:55,360 --> 00:39:00,320 the quote from Pascal, the God of Abraham than Isaac, not the gone 463 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:07,960 of the philosopher exactly. He's actually correct. Okay, dope, Yeah, 464 00:39:07,039 --> 00:39:10,679 thanks thanks for answering that, Hey, that they just got it Beloved. 465 00:39:13,519 --> 00:39:15,280 One last thing, do you think that they just got it wrong, Jay, 466 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:20,679 or do you think that it was like intentionally subversive? Were there other 467 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,119 elements that were, you know, interested in pushing this stuff like I mean 468 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:29,599 no, I mean that there were There's actually a long history of uh, 469 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,519 you know, there's geopolitical powers that play into ecumenism. Even there's even Roman 470 00:39:34,559 --> 00:39:37,239 Catholic authors that have written books. David Wimhoff has a great book. He's 471 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:44,159 a Catholic lawyer called John Courtney Murray Time Life Magazine. American Proposition, which 472 00:39:44,199 --> 00:39:49,440 is about the influence of America. It's deep state on Vatican two and the 473 00:39:49,559 --> 00:39:52,920 doctrinal warfare program headed up by CEEDE. Jackson's a famous Roman Catholic book. 474 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:58,039 He's been interviewed on countless Roman Catholic podcast. So this is not some orthodox 475 00:39:58,119 --> 00:40:00,639 conspiracy person. U. Yeah, this is you know that there is a 476 00:40:00,679 --> 00:40:07,239 geopolitical power element to uh to ecumenism, but I think that really it's it's 477 00:40:07,559 --> 00:40:13,639 also an outworking of a long train of theological mistakes. So you know, 478 00:40:13,679 --> 00:40:20,119 the the idea of absolute divine simplicity, which is the Augustinian presupposition for how 479 00:40:20,159 --> 00:40:24,599 we go about understanding the Trinity. That really leads to a different model of 480 00:40:24,599 --> 00:40:29,559 the Trinity that's adopted in the Latin West in the Middle Ages, and it's 481 00:40:29,599 --> 00:40:35,079 not the model of the Triad that's very normative and universal in the East, 482 00:40:35,119 --> 00:40:39,840 which is the Cappadocian teaching at the Second Ecumenical Council. So basically, if 483 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,119 you read Photius, we would say that Saint Photius and mystagogy the Holy Spirit, 484 00:40:44,519 --> 00:40:50,639 the divergence is really about the triad and that's what conditions the ecclesiological papal 485 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,400 divergence. And if you you know, I mentioned that Schirard book Church Papacy 486 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:59,760 Schism, he actually makes the argument that the papal thing is actually outworking of 487 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:04,679 that the logical mistakes. Gotcha, thank you for that. Have you have 488 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,119 you produced content on Operation Gladio. Oh yeah, yeah, I've got probably 489 00:41:09,559 --> 00:41:14,800 five six seven podcasts on that legit. Yeah, I figured you probably did. 490 00:41:15,679 --> 00:41:19,320 Sweet. Yeah, thanks for answering my questions. Father, Sorry for 491 00:41:20,119 --> 00:41:22,880 interrupting you if you tell me, hey, no problem. I wanted to 492 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,280 let you get your questions, and they were excellent questions. And uh, 493 00:41:25,519 --> 00:41:30,519 I'm actually just really impressed at the right kind of questions you're asking at the 494 00:41:30,599 --> 00:41:36,079 level that you are, So keep up the great work. I mean, 495 00:41:36,599 --> 00:41:42,239 that's your miles ahead of where I was. Appreciate that, man. Yeah, 496 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,199 honestly, I mean when I speak to people that are educated on all 497 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:50,960 of this, I feel extremely retarded. So I appreciate the vote of encouragement 498 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:53,920 if I could. On that topic. It's not as complicated as people make 499 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:58,639 it out to be, Like even like the skis him itself, Like just 500 00:41:58,639 --> 00:42:01,079 from a comment stands standpoint, like four of the five patriarchs were on the 501 00:42:01,079 --> 00:42:05,400 Eastern Orthodox side, and it was only the one patriarch to pope that was 502 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:07,760 on the Western side. Yeah, and I wanted to add to that that 503 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:09,440 way. Yeah, the church, like in the first millennium, the church 504 00:42:09,559 --> 00:42:14,599 was built on the five patriarchs, one of which was was was Rome. 505 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:20,239 And even in the Roman Catholic Ecumenical Council A sixty nine, they admit that 506 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:24,039 the heads plural of the church are the five patriarchs, and four of those 507 00:42:24,079 --> 00:42:30,000 five simultaneously we're on the side of the Eastern Orthodox ath schism. Rome was 508 00:42:30,039 --> 00:42:34,400 alone. So that's that's not like an insignificant detail, and it's kind of 509 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,760 like a common sense detail that a lot of people kind of overlook. Right, 510 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,079 Yeah, that's exactly the point that I wanted to make. So one 511 00:42:40,119 --> 00:42:45,400 thing that both Jane noticed in It's just the kind of common problem that any 512 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:50,280 of us could be infected with is that we take our own paradigm and then 513 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:55,239 you read that in to everything else. And so with the Roman Catholics, 514 00:42:55,320 --> 00:43:01,840 they have a very centralized all the power centralized in one office. They don't 515 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:09,480 have this kind of concept of decentralization what we call an orthodoxy autocephally and nodality, 516 00:43:10,159 --> 00:43:14,480 and this kind of caused some problems for them kind of thinking through these 517 00:43:14,519 --> 00:43:21,239 issues. And let's so let's go to what Luigi is actually saying about the 518 00:43:22,079 --> 00:43:27,199 split in ten fifty four. They tend to conceive it of it is and 519 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:31,960 frame the issue as look, it's this one church against this other church, 520 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:39,880 like two people, and then it confuses people inquiring into it which one's right. 521 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:45,039 They're boastitting they're right, But as Luigi correctly pointed out, this is 522 00:43:45,079 --> 00:43:52,639 because they failed to understand the kind of notion of decentralization and autosephalacy. Here 523 00:43:52,679 --> 00:44:02,119 you have five patriarchal sees and when they operate jurisdiction, they're independent, so 524 00:44:02,599 --> 00:44:07,400 it means a lot that. Well, wait, it's not one person against 525 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:12,320 one person, or one institution against one another institution. And who's right? 526 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:20,599 You have four of those people who are all should I say people, jurisdicians 527 00:44:20,599 --> 00:44:23,119 and sees who are independent. Right, they're not under one another. They're 528 00:44:23,159 --> 00:44:28,800 economous entities. Let me add to real quick that and a lot of Roman 529 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,639 Catholics don't even know this. They think that Orthodoxy just made up autocephalist churches. 530 00:44:34,119 --> 00:44:37,239 It's actually the Council of Ephesus, that is the first statement in four 531 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:46,679 point thirty one of autocephally granted to the Church of Cyprus. So emphasis ratifies 532 00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:51,639 the notion of Cyprus being autocephalus. So it's actually out of the econmenical councils 533 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,239 enough, something that Orthodoxy invented on their own, and pentarchy as well, 534 00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:59,480 comes out of the canonical structure of the economical councils, not something the Orthodoxy 535 00:44:59,519 --> 00:45:02,840 invented. Yeah, so really you have a forgance. One if I could 536 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:08,719 give an analogy, imagine you have like five friends growing up, and they're 537 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:15,400 telling a story about One of the friends tells a story about what happened growing 538 00:45:15,519 --> 00:45:21,840 up, and the other friend says, well, wait a minute, that's 539 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:23,320 that's not true. That didn't happen. Oh yeah, yeah, no, 540 00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:27,679 that's the way it happened. So it's a he said, she said sort 541 00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:31,079 of thing. And then what you get is, oh, wait, you 542 00:45:31,119 --> 00:45:35,880 get the other three friends come in and say, no, that's that's not 543 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,400 how it happened. In fact, you're relying on a document that the forgery 544 00:45:40,679 --> 00:45:45,559 to perpetuate your lie. That's more kind of an analogy of what you're what's 545 00:45:45,599 --> 00:45:50,960 going on. It's it's that you've got four friends that are saying that's not 546 00:45:51,119 --> 00:45:54,000 how the story went at all, that's not correct. In fact, you're 547 00:45:54,119 --> 00:46:00,519 using a forged, false document to even argue that. I think that's a 548 00:46:00,519 --> 00:46:05,119 good analogy and good way to kind of think about it. All of which, 549 00:46:05,119 --> 00:46:08,800 the four friends haven't been talking and been separate, so they him conspired 550 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:16,760 against It's just they were accounted their their history together and they found you have 551 00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:22,039 four against one. I think that would be a strong case that you would 552 00:46:22,079 --> 00:46:27,000 be at the very least suspicious of the one friend I e. Rome and 553 00:46:27,039 --> 00:46:32,199 what their claims are. Let me add eve Evan, he's really eager to 554 00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:38,159 argue. The Roman Catholic set of a consciosposition is the timeshare presentation over? 555 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,320 Yeah, it's really funny. What's that? What's your argument? You like 556 00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,000 that? So first Jay, I just want to let a ready know that 557 00:46:45,159 --> 00:46:52,320 Jay go, he's got to go personal stuff. Yeah, you're going to 558 00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:54,079 go personal stuff. And then say, I'm running. Do you have an 559 00:46:54,159 --> 00:47:00,199 argument? They have any Do you have an actual argument? I just waited. 560 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,599 Now you guys are gonna stop, I have Do you have anything to 561 00:47:07,679 --> 00:47:09,440 say? And yeah, you're gonna let me be a sentence? I just 562 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:13,800 waited. Okay, but it's not about me. So you're going to make 563 00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:15,599 an argument or not. Oh I'm gonna make an argument. I'll already know 564 00:47:15,639 --> 00:47:19,719 that. You refuse to debate the Diamond Brothers and you're running because I think 565 00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,320 they're a crazy cold and that's not an argument. No, it's because you 566 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:23,199 know you're going to lose. So I just wanted to get that on the 567 00:47:23,199 --> 00:47:27,719 table. So where's your argument? Hold on? Jack? So he doesn't 568 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,440 have I'm letting everybody know that you refuse to debate the top Yeah, I 569 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:37,000 don't debate crazy cults, correct, because there's no point in that. Man. 570 00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:42,800 Amen, nobody takes sad seriously, bro. So he waited all that 571 00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:47,480 time to say that he didn't have an actual argument. So now can the 572 00:47:47,639 --> 00:47:52,360 energy. By the way, I just want to let the audience kind it's 573 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:58,159 it's just anger at me, right, So it's like anger and it's uh 574 00:47:58,559 --> 00:48:05,960 yeah, classic said behavior. Yeah, just take it easy, come in 575 00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:09,760 and be respectful. That's oh yeah, I've got I've got about fifteen minutes. 576 00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:14,400 I'm curious if there's anybody in your audience who's Roman Catholic who wants to 577 00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:17,800 make a counter argument in favor of the pope's authority being legitimate. All right, 578 00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:21,760 So if you've got Roman Catholic arguments, you guys want to bring it 579 00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:23,920 up. I do see a lot of people in the quay in the queue, 580 00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:28,599 as the Brits say, feel free to request to speak, raise your 581 00:48:28,599 --> 00:48:30,480 hand because I see a lot of people, so I don't know who's who 582 00:48:30,519 --> 00:48:37,480 is and isn't Roman Catholic, So just sort of do the raise your hand 583 00:48:37,559 --> 00:48:44,960 thing. Yeah, over waiting. I just want to point out sovereigny as 584 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:49,039 you get into this kind of like these discussions. One of the common arguments 585 00:48:49,039 --> 00:48:54,119 that Jay pointed out is the developments of the papacy argument. And it's actually 586 00:48:54,119 --> 00:49:00,880 self refuting because Pastor Returnos Inbatic in one yeah, specifically says that it's been 587 00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:04,920 known since the beginning of the Christian religion, like in the same paragraph where 588 00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,639 it's talking about the infallibility of the pope. So it's self refusing to say 589 00:49:07,639 --> 00:49:13,719 it's developed. Says what has been known since the beginning the infallibility of of 590 00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,400 the of the of the pope. If you read the paragraph says it too. 591 00:49:17,599 --> 00:49:22,599 They both do yeah yeah, So so like Vatican want itself like refutes 592 00:49:22,639 --> 00:49:27,880 itself if you argue it developed, because it specifically says it's been known since 593 00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:31,360 the beginning of the Christian religion. What do they what do they base that 594 00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:35,360 on? That it's been known since the beginning of the Christian Rulin. They're 595 00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:39,800 going to go to the verses in Matthew or is it yes, Vatican want 596 00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:44,559 itself is gonna is gonna reference Matthew sixteen. That's exactly what that's what it 597 00:49:44,599 --> 00:49:50,559 references to justify it. And then ironically it says it's because the keys were 598 00:49:50,599 --> 00:49:52,679 given to Peter. But if you go to latter in four, which is 599 00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:58,480 also ecumenical for Roman Catholics, it specifically says the keys were given to all 600 00:49:58,519 --> 00:50:02,599 the apostles and older successors. So that's a contradiction between two economenical councils. 601 00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:07,760 Yeah, and they also will rely on a lot of sort of quote minds 602 00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:12,639 where it's like things taken out of context, things that don't have any context, 603 00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:14,960 and then when you go and learn what the context is, it's like 604 00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:20,159 and that doesn't actually teach people infallibility. So roma spoken cases close this kind 605 00:50:20,159 --> 00:50:22,320 of stuff, and then you go see the context and it's nothing to do 606 00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:27,000 with what they think it says. So all the Roman Catholics are left after 607 00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:30,079 that one guy. So I thought we would have somebody who raised your hand. 608 00:50:30,079 --> 00:50:35,639 If you want to come on to argue the Roman Catholic position. Yeah, 609 00:50:35,639 --> 00:50:38,039 I would. I would genuinely like to hear a rebuttal from the Roman 610 00:50:38,079 --> 00:50:42,920 Catholics. So we got like four or five hundred people here on Twitter, 611 00:50:43,559 --> 00:50:45,400 or we did earlier. Surely there's a Roman Catholic here. Come on, 612 00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:51,880 use the little raise your hand, think of a jig. If you want 613 00:50:51,880 --> 00:51:07,840 to hop on, I'll give you the mic. Sean. There was a 614 00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:12,159 guy earlier who was saying he wanted to come on now. He left best 615 00:51:12,199 --> 00:51:15,800 Buy? Are you one best ball? Here we go. This guy says 616 00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:27,360 he's Romany. Noah, just unmute. Noah, you're on No I just 617 00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:31,559 got to unmute, dude. I'm sorry, folks. I hope everybody's doing 618 00:51:31,639 --> 00:51:39,199 well tonight. Before I give you know, any rebuttals or anything about the 619 00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:44,599 Pulp, I just want to say that, you know, we complicate everything, 620 00:51:45,599 --> 00:51:52,320 and we divide and conquer everything, and we're always looking for who's right 621 00:51:52,880 --> 00:52:00,519 and who's wrong. So it is it is. But like that sounds awesome 622 00:52:00,679 --> 00:52:07,559 based me. You know, the whole purpose is to have a personal relationship 623 00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:15,400 with God. That's where it will be game. Well, are you all 624 00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:20,519 right? We're gonna move on. So we specifically requested h a person who 625 00:52:20,519 --> 00:52:27,639 wants to argue the Romancalloy position, not evangelical testimony. That sounds pretty base 626 00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,920 to me. Conquered divide, find truth, and that what Jesus said. 627 00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:36,760 I can't and I came to divide. So and we prayed it for our 628 00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,559 bishops to rightly divide the word of the truth. Like yeah, amen, 629 00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:50,599 King, did you want to speak? You got to unmute king? Can 630 00:52:50,639 --> 00:52:58,039 you hear me? Uh? So, I'm a Roman Catholic and I have 631 00:52:58,119 --> 00:53:02,639 one question about like Matthew sixteen, because I mean, I'm kind of a 632 00:53:02,679 --> 00:53:07,760 set of a contest Catholic. So because I can't really you know, be 633 00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:17,440 consistent with the you know, Vatican two and past. Let me see, 634 00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:22,960 well, as a Roman Catholic who is a set of a contest, how 635 00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:28,000 are you ever going to have a pope again? If Francis has basically chosen 636 00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:32,079 all the cardinals to be a bunch of liberals that you think are no longer 637 00:53:32,119 --> 00:53:35,840 a Catholic as well, how are you going to ever get a pope again? 638 00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,159 I mean, honestly, I don't think that's the case. Like I 639 00:53:40,199 --> 00:53:44,800 think it would be that either this is in times or we would have to 640 00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:52,679 rely on Orthodoxy to do that to you know, to come to the Catholic 641 00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,000 faith. I think, so you're going to rely on the Orthodox Church to 642 00:53:55,079 --> 00:54:00,360 come back to Rome to save the Roman Catholic Church. I mean, I 643 00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:04,960 don't expect that, but I think that would be the only real solution. 644 00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,360 Okay, Well that's not going to happen, so, yeah, I know. 645 00:54:08,679 --> 00:54:14,360 Have you read Etsy Have you read the document Etsy Multa? Uh? 646 00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:16,880 Yeah, Okay, do you not think that that, even though that's written 647 00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:22,000 against the old Catholics, does the principle in this not refute set of accuntism? 648 00:54:24,079 --> 00:54:29,400 I think that, Like, I don't think it refutes it entirely, 649 00:54:29,559 --> 00:54:31,599 but I can see how it can be used as an argument against it. 650 00:54:32,159 --> 00:54:38,960 Okay, well, how how does the promise that we have, like in 651 00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:44,840 Vatican One, that there would be successors in the Office of Peter to the 652 00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:49,159 end of the world. How is the fundamental components of the Roman Church? 653 00:54:49,559 --> 00:54:54,840 How is it not lost if it loses its fundamental constituent component of unity the 654 00:54:54,920 --> 00:55:07,280 Roman see, I mean, it would be it would be, you know, 655 00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:12,519 be lost in the way that visibly, But I don't think it would 656 00:55:12,519 --> 00:55:15,400 be lost invisibly. Like now, now you're a Protestant, okay, because 657 00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:21,599 the Vatican One does not say that there's an invisible church, an ethereal of 658 00:55:22,119 --> 00:55:25,239 platonic form of the papacy. The only papacy that you can be in communion 659 00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:30,599 with is the visible one over in Rome. You understand, it says that 660 00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:34,599 visible unity exists till the end of the world. So you can't switch over 661 00:55:34,639 --> 00:55:38,880 to a Protestant invisible church model. Well, I think that it would still 662 00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:44,920 be visible in the way that they exist in the Church history visible visible. 663 00:55:45,119 --> 00:55:49,079 No, what's visible is the office of unity, the Roman Sea. So 664 00:55:49,119 --> 00:55:53,039 you would have to say that the Roman Sea continues. Maybe all the other 665 00:55:53,079 --> 00:55:57,480 bishops in the world fail. Right, if you wanted to preserve the Vatican 666 00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:01,079 One position, you can't have the Roman Sea disappear and still have the visible 667 00:56:01,159 --> 00:56:05,480 unity of the Romancolic Church. There is no other Roman Cacolic Church in the 668 00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:13,239 one in Rome. Right. That's why said of a contism doesn't work. 669 00:56:13,519 --> 00:56:21,639 It's an it's a dead end position. You can't don't you see how it 670 00:56:21,639 --> 00:56:27,480 could be possible that this could be like similar to the Old Testament? No, 671 00:56:27,599 --> 00:56:30,679 I mean, the whole point was we're not in the Old Testament. 672 00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:36,440 Bro Pentecost is the promise of the Holy Spirit to the church to lead and 673 00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:38,440 guide her into all truth, as Jesus says in the Gospel of John. 674 00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:42,880 So it's not gonna leave church. The church if the Roman see is the 675 00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:45,480 Romans see, it's Holy Spirit is not gonna leave it, and we're gonna 676 00:56:45,519 --> 00:56:52,639 revert to a pre Pentecost time in the Old Testament. Okay, So where 677 00:56:52,639 --> 00:56:55,719 would you say I should look into? Like, if I want to look 678 00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:59,599 into Orthodoxy, I would say read, uh, First of all, read 679 00:56:59,679 --> 00:57:04,239 John on Trello's book Set of a Concious Delusion. Because we helped John convert 680 00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:07,960 to Orthodoxy out instead of a contism. I myself had a period where I 681 00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,360 thought, say it was correct, So I would say read that. Read 682 00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:15,599 Michael Welton's book Two Paths and John Pontrello's book Set of a Contius Delusion. 683 00:57:15,599 --> 00:57:20,960 Those are two places to start. Any other Roman Catholics who want to come 684 00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:25,199 on, raise your hand, best ball? Did you want to hop on 685 00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:30,159 as Roman Catholic? I got another question for you to j When you get 686 00:57:30,159 --> 00:57:36,519 a moment, go ahead, best ball? All right, Hey, thanks 687 00:57:36,519 --> 00:57:39,320 for letting me talk, guys, I but love for my Orthodox brothers. 688 00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:49,400 So you guys were saying the path sy essentially was something that came to be 689 00:57:49,519 --> 00:57:52,760 in Vatican one, and in Vatican one they were claiming it was something that 690 00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:59,719 was I was saying it evolved over many, many centuries, but that the 691 00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:05,599 aims of Vatican one are a historical and retroactively read back into history. The 692 00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:10,880 papacy is a see of Peter that existed and eventually, in our view, 693 00:58:12,239 --> 00:58:16,239 sort of evolved away from Orthodoxy. So it wasn't invented at Vatican One. 694 00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:23,440 I just want to read something specifically from the Council of Ephesus in four thirty 695 00:58:23,519 --> 00:58:30,840 one a d. So this would have been before the schism, you know, 696 00:58:30,119 --> 00:58:34,039 something that would have what we know what we know the quote minds uh, 697 00:58:34,159 --> 00:58:37,559 Luigi has addressed these. Luigi, do you want to address the quote. 698 00:58:37,599 --> 00:58:43,480 Yeah, he's going to read you're talking about post Salestine. Yeah, 699 00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:47,159 it's referencing. It's it's the Legate Philip talking about post Salestine's letter. Yeah, 700 00:58:47,199 --> 00:58:50,679 it's just the same. It's gonna be the same language talking about how 701 00:58:50,719 --> 00:58:53,000 the pope, you know, uh, will never fail. This language is 702 00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:58,880 applied to the Emperor it's applied to all the patriarchs in various councils. So 703 00:58:59,079 --> 00:59:02,039 what Roman Catholics do is they'll literally quote mine. They'll just pull this this 704 00:59:02,079 --> 00:59:07,199 one quote that's referencing the Pope specifically, and then they'll ignore all the same 705 00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:10,840 quotes that reference the Emperor and the other patriarchs. For example, in Constantinople 706 00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:19,159 III, Matthew sixteen is applied to the emperor, So it's like the case 707 00:59:19,159 --> 00:59:22,400 of hell will never prevail against the emperor. So obviously these quotes are honorific 708 00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:28,960 and nothing more than that, and so it's disingenuous to apply them to the 709 00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:31,039 Pope and not apply them literally to the emperor or to the other patriot. 710 00:59:31,119 --> 00:59:35,679 The other thing, too, is that the Roman Catholic Church now admits, 711 00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:42,280 via the papally approved synods that Chid and Alexandria are the documents produced by these 712 00:59:42,519 --> 00:59:50,760 these working groups or whatever, that these these periods are not teaching Vatican One. 713 00:59:51,159 --> 00:59:53,960 So what's on the what the burden of proof is the Vatican One view 714 00:59:54,159 --> 01:00:00,960 not? Did Rome sign councils first? Was it called the first ce? 715 01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:06,679 Was this language used at times? The question is can you show the Vatican 716 01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:13,559 One claims in the first millennium and Roman myths. No, So can I 717 01:00:13,639 --> 01:00:16,880 just read this excerpt? I mean I wasn't here for earlier in this discussion 718 01:00:17,159 --> 01:00:23,760 instead of you know, just saying I was gonna we knew what you were 719 01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:28,119 going to read, so and you admitted it. Yeah, would it be 720 01:00:28,159 --> 01:00:30,800 okay if I were to read it? So if people in the chat who 721 01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:35,000 haven't actually heard it before, I can hear it directly? All right? 722 01:00:35,239 --> 01:00:40,280 So direct quote Council of Ephesus for thirty one a d. There is no 723 01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:45,400 doubt, And in fact, it has been known in all ages that the 724 01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:51,119 Holy and most Blessed Peter, Prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of 725 01:00:51,159 --> 01:00:55,760 the faith and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the Kingdom 726 01:00:55,920 --> 01:01:00,559 from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, 727 01:01:02,599 --> 01:01:09,360 and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins who down 728 01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:15,880 even to today and forever, both lives and judges. And his successors. 729 01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:24,760 Do you think that Rome and Alexandria and Antioch are his successors? Yeah, 730 01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:30,880 all bishops you know within the Apostolic line are successors. But there's something no, 731 01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:34,719 no, no, no, The patrine seas are who according to Pope 732 01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:44,320 Saint Gregory. What are the three patrin seas according to Pope Saint Gregory. 733 01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:46,920 Yeah, I'm not going to comment on that. I'm not well versed enough. 734 01:01:47,039 --> 01:01:51,079 Okay, well i'll tell you. He says that Rome, Alexandria, 735 01:01:51,119 --> 01:01:54,519 and Antioch are the three patrine seas. So by your argument, that would 736 01:01:54,599 --> 01:02:00,159 mean that all three of those fall under that blessing. It would not, 737 01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:05,519 because it's something very unique is happening. In this excerpt, it says that 738 01:02:05,599 --> 01:02:09,880 the Holy and Most Blessed Peter, Prince and head of the Apostles. Yeah, 739 01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:14,159 but you don't even understand you you're not understanding the argument that I'm making. 740 01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:17,039 Do you understand that all three understand you're making that they have equal authority? 741 01:02:17,119 --> 01:02:22,719 No? No, you missed the point. Those are three patrine seas, 742 01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:27,880 they're all from Peter. So you just shot yourself on the foot. 743 01:02:29,039 --> 01:02:31,000 Yeah. No, I get what you're saying. I understand it. Well, 744 01:02:31,039 --> 01:02:35,119 your reply was not based on understanding. It was based on me thinking 745 01:02:35,159 --> 01:02:37,599 that they're saying that it's all the bishops. Now there's three patrine seas, 746 01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:45,719 so does that apply to them? Well, this excerp specifically says and head 747 01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:50,960 of the apostles. So is there that has nothing to do with that has 748 01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:54,960 nothing to do with his successors, who are all patrins say for the other 749 01:02:55,039 --> 01:03:00,679 patrine seas specifically head of the apostles. Well, Constantinople eight sixty nine, 750 01:03:00,679 --> 01:03:05,360 which is acumenical for you, calls all five patriarchs the heads of the church. 751 01:03:05,679 --> 01:03:09,159 So then and then Constentin Noble three calls the Emperor the head. So 752 01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:13,960 headship is not exclusively applied to the Pope, it's applied to the Emperor. 753 01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:16,480 It's applied to all five patriarchs. Yep. So this is why your quote 754 01:03:16,519 --> 01:03:22,280 minds don't work. I appreciate you, guys, let me share. I'll 755 01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:27,400 let the audience decide for themselves. I appreciate it. And this is the 756 01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:36,280 general point that I think, Jay, you're pointing out that everything you said 757 01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:45,400 about Peter being the head therefore applies to Antioch and Alexandria and not just Rome. 758 01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:52,679 So for some reason, I know the reason the Roman Catholics and I 759 01:03:52,719 --> 01:03:58,440 think that patrin cy only applies to Rome and all the kerry picking verses that 760 01:03:58,519 --> 01:04:02,119 they do, well, that's just Roman papal supremacy. Well, if you 761 01:04:02,159 --> 01:04:06,079 read the letter here from Pope saying Gregor the Gray his epistle, he actually 762 01:04:06,159 --> 01:04:12,559 uses the patrin key language. He cites Matthew sixteen of the Keys, and 763 01:04:12,599 --> 01:04:16,679 he says, for he himself, Peter exalted the sea, which he dained 764 01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:20,920 to be in the rest of his life. He himself adorned the sea that 765 01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:26,039 he sent his disciple Alexandria, and he himself is thinking that this was some 766 01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:30,239 special thing in Rome. That's why they don't have a good argument. They 767 01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:33,159 just say, well, it's only in Rome because Peter died there, and 768 01:04:33,159 --> 01:04:38,199 they come up with these weird arguments to try to say that it's only Rome 769 01:04:38,559 --> 01:04:43,159 because they immediately realize that Peter isn't just the Bishop of Rome. He also 770 01:04:43,199 --> 01:04:46,639 has lineage in Alexandria and Antioch. But then they have to cut off Alexandri 771 01:04:46,679 --> 01:04:50,639 and Antioch from falling under this patrine privilege. So why is it only Rome. 772 01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:56,280 Oh, it's a tradition. So then they fall back on a silent 773 01:04:56,440 --> 01:05:00,599 tradition. Yeah. Ironically, I actually just remember to in that same council, 774 01:05:00,639 --> 01:05:03,599 and this is on page three to eight of the Prices Acts of Emphasis. 775 01:05:04,119 --> 01:05:09,920 It calls the Emperor the divine and inviolable head. In that same council 776 01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:13,320 that he just referenced. Yeah, it calls the emperor the divine and inviable 777 01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:16,800 head. So like this idea of headship in the very council he pointed to 778 01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:21,840 reference his someone other than the pope. Yeah, that's why selective usage of 779 01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:26,159 the language. For example, in Besil's letters, which we did a whole 780 01:05:26,199 --> 01:05:30,599 podcast on Basil's letters, when he's having problems in the East, he appeals 781 01:05:30,639 --> 01:05:35,840 to Rome. Rome doesn't help out, and he calls the Bishop of Antioch 782 01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:40,079 the head of the body. So he's calling the Bishop of Antioch out of 783 01:05:40,079 --> 01:05:44,079 the church. He appeals to Rome, Rome doesn't give any help. Basil 784 01:05:44,119 --> 01:05:48,440 then says Rome is absolutely worthless. Oh so much for the first see so 785 01:05:48,559 --> 01:05:53,000 much for it solving all these problems. And it's not even called the head. 786 01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:57,400 He calls Antioch the head. So this is because this language is used 787 01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:01,480 amongst the church fathers throughout as a as a sign and as an honorific thing. 788 01:06:01,719 --> 01:06:06,519 As Luigi said, it doesn't always have a theological baggage all a Vatican 789 01:06:06,599 --> 01:06:12,480 one like Roman Catholics wanted to have. They read that into it. I 790 01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:18,519 also want to bring up something too about the indefectibility. Interesting enough, last 791 01:06:18,559 --> 01:06:26,719 Sunday was the Gospel of Mark And do you guys just remember what the what 792 01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:32,760 the gospel was about the mirror bearing women running to them. Yeah, and 793 01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:42,280 the Angel says, uh, go get the disciples. Oh and Peter, 794 01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:49,159 remember so talking about defectibility, Peter himself had defected. Like so, this 795 01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:56,639 idea that that Peter in this and the see of Peter can't affect is crazy 796 01:06:56,639 --> 01:07:00,920 to me. It's like he it's obviously pointed out up to the Angel too, 797 01:07:00,039 --> 01:07:03,079 he's not even part of the disciples at that point. Well, it's 798 01:07:03,079 --> 01:07:08,360 going to be brought back in. But Paul, if Rome can't defect, 799 01:07:08,519 --> 01:07:12,719 then why does Paul warn the Roman Church that they will be grafted out if 800 01:07:12,760 --> 01:07:16,599 they fail to believe? I mean, these warnings make no sense if this 801 01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:20,719 is really something impossible, right, And he doesn't say oh, well, 802 01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:24,719 but you know they'll say, well, he's not talking about the Bishop of 803 01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:27,360 Rome. He's talking about Oh yeah, sure. No, it's a warning 804 01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:30,800 to the entire Roman Church. If you are unfaithful, you will be grafted 805 01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:34,639 out. There's no special privilege to this church. In fact, it's the 806 01:07:34,679 --> 01:07:39,679 same type of warning that the Church is In the Book of Revelation of the 807 01:07:39,679 --> 01:07:43,760 seven Ers of Asia Minor, they're warned that they can have their lampstand removed 808 01:07:44,519 --> 01:07:49,119 in the same type of removal as Rome can have right being grafted out through 809 01:07:49,199 --> 01:07:54,599 unbelief or through being puffed up with pride. Isn't it interesting that Paul warns 810 01:07:54,639 --> 01:07:59,199 the Roman Church of being puffed up with pride and the possibility of being grafted 811 01:07:59,199 --> 01:08:09,719 out? Almost prophetic perhaps? Alright, so Solemn Bride to leave. We've 812 01:08:09,760 --> 01:08:12,880 still got a full house here. Anybody else who would like to pop on. 813 01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:16,039 You're welcome to romany cath Yeah, appreciate you having me and I gotta 814 01:08:16,079 --> 01:08:21,920 hop off, Okay, yeah, appreciate Luigi, Father Moses, you're here. 815 01:08:21,960 --> 01:08:30,560 Did you want to speak to something? He's busy lifting weights for now. 816 01:08:32,239 --> 01:08:39,079 Sorry, let's see. We've got a bunch of people who are in 817 01:08:39,119 --> 01:08:59,479 here. Luke, does Luke want to speak? I'm mute, Yeah, 818 01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:15,680 I'm mute. Yeah, all right, Luke's not able to speak. Michael 819 01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:35,800 hm gat to talk or I have a little bit different of a question. 820 01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:40,479 By the way, Jay, I just found you about three weeks ago. 821 01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:46,920 Only enough amazing work. And amazing apologetics. Thank you, thank you. 822 01:09:47,199 --> 01:09:54,479 But I have a slightly odd question I may ask you, gentlemen. See, 823 01:09:54,520 --> 01:10:00,520 I try to say very unbiased. My my goal is to get people 824 01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:11,279 into the church rather than into a specific church un Orthodox. That that's clear. 825 01:10:12,479 --> 01:10:17,520 And what I'm trying to do with my Christian channel across Cruise header is 826 01:10:17,840 --> 01:10:24,079 to really just get people into the church, opening the Bible, questioning what 827 01:10:24,119 --> 01:10:33,199 they believe. And I'm finding it pretty difficult to stay unbiased. And I 828 01:10:33,319 --> 01:10:45,079 was wondering what your perspective, both Jay and both of fathers here, what 829 01:10:45,159 --> 01:10:53,239 your perspectives would be on me trying to remain unbiased. What do you mean 830 01:10:53,319 --> 01:10:56,359 remain unbiased? So I don't really think we can be unbiased? What do 831 01:10:56,399 --> 01:11:01,680 you mean? Yeah, I think that's kind of my issue through So I'm 832 01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:09,239 trying to remain unbiased in the aspect of I'm trying to to When people ask 833 01:11:09,279 --> 01:11:16,119 me questions, I respond in both the Catholic and the Orthodox. So I 834 01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:24,119 try my best to give both perspectives so that people can choose, you know, 835 01:11:24,159 --> 01:11:27,640 which church they go into or enter into. Well, yeah, well, 836 01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:29,439 I'm not trying to be rude to you. I don't think that's the 837 01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:31,319 right approach. I don't think we can mute. I mean, these are 838 01:11:31,399 --> 01:11:36,079 mutually exclusive positions. For example, if your Orthodox, you have to believe, 839 01:11:36,119 --> 01:11:42,239 for example, in the Palamite Synods, and they are mutually exclusive. 840 01:11:42,279 --> 01:11:47,520 With Roman Catholicism, I mean, you don't offer the Jewish perspective right forbably 841 01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:55,159 all the exact it's true, So why why why offer the perspective of a 842 01:11:55,199 --> 01:12:02,239 heretical fact. It doesn't make any sense, That's pretty much, and it's 843 01:12:02,279 --> 01:12:08,439 been heavy on myself so well, I would say I would recommend one of 844 01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:12,960 an antidote perhaps to that would be this book right here. So get this 845 01:12:13,039 --> 01:12:17,039 book by Norman Russell where he's translated. It's really just a translation of the 846 01:12:17,039 --> 01:12:21,119 Palomite Synods and a bunch of letters of Saint Grey Palmas in the Life of 847 01:12:21,159 --> 01:12:26,720 Saint Gregory. So that would be one really good way to maybe drill into 848 01:12:26,760 --> 01:12:30,359 that question. Also, if you're more of a history guy, not really 849 01:12:30,399 --> 01:12:34,479 a theology guy, Christianiese in The Rise of the Papacy by Papa Dooccus and 850 01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:44,399 Mayandorf really solidifies this period of departure. So I'm glad that sauvegn Bra raised 851 01:12:44,399 --> 01:12:46,800 this question about this time period, because there's not a lot of books that 852 01:12:46,840 --> 01:12:51,159 are really good about this period. And that's why I'm so glad that Papa 853 01:12:51,199 --> 01:12:57,000 Doacus and Mandorff wrote this excellent book because a lot of people, you know, 854 01:12:57,640 --> 01:13:01,000 prefer history to straight up theologies to tech nicol and this book is really 855 01:13:01,039 --> 01:13:05,640 good at being historical but then bringing in some of the theological disputes of this 856 01:13:05,760 --> 01:13:11,119 crucial period of departure ten seventy one to fourteen fifty three. So if you're 857 01:13:11,159 --> 01:13:14,359 more of a history buff, I highly highly recommend everybody read this book. 858 01:13:14,359 --> 01:13:18,359 It's great Christianese in the Rise of Papacy the Church ten seventy one to fourteen 859 01:13:18,439 --> 01:13:21,199 fifty three is one of the best texts. Now, there's a lot of 860 01:13:21,239 --> 01:13:26,239 other great texts, you know, Michael Welton's Two Paths, these kinds of 861 01:13:26,239 --> 01:13:31,920 things. There's also the new Sushensky book, which it's good for maybe drilling 862 01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:35,079 into a lot of these quote minds that we've heard tonight. So we've had 863 01:13:35,159 --> 01:13:39,560 you know, Ephicis thrown out and you know there's going to be you know, 864 01:13:39,640 --> 01:13:44,439 Lee has spoken Roman spoken, Cases closed, et cetera. And Sashensky's 865 01:13:44,439 --> 01:13:48,439 new book Papacy and the Orthodox. It kind of has chapters on a lot 866 01:13:48,439 --> 01:13:54,760 of these a lot of these topics, which is really good. But yeah, 867 01:13:54,800 --> 01:13:58,720 so we're we're we're getting really good material published of late on these on 868 01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:03,239 these subjects. But the Papa Docus mind or book is by far one of 869 01:14:03,239 --> 01:14:09,880 the best so long time. And then the Norman Russell book is just like 870 01:14:09,960 --> 01:14:13,960 this is now essential, Like if if we haven't had an English translation of 871 01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:17,640 Palomite Synods really until this, and this is all of them. So this 872 01:14:18,159 --> 01:14:21,600 and the reason that's so important is that we've had so many of these Roman 873 01:14:21,640 --> 01:14:27,880 Catholic car salesmen trying to tell us that, oh, we're all saying the 874 01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:31,439 same thing, and oh, actually palamism is can be reconciled with Tomism. 875 01:14:31,640 --> 01:14:40,520 No, this explicitly rejects the Tomistic reading of Palamas. In the Fourth Thomas, 876 01:14:40,520 --> 01:14:45,239 the fourth Palamite Synod specifically rejects the Tomistic view. So enough of this 877 01:14:45,640 --> 01:14:49,680 nonsense and all the car salesmanship that they've been telling us for so long. 878 01:14:50,800 --> 01:15:10,439 Sublime Providence gotta unmute man. We've got a super chat from MM and he 879 01:15:10,439 --> 01:15:15,000 says, does Elijah and the prophets of Bale show us that all occultism is 880 01:15:15,039 --> 01:15:19,000 fake and gray. Well, it shows that in that instance to be fake 881 01:15:19,079 --> 01:15:24,960 and gray because they're cutting themselves in their demon doesn't manifest. But I mean, 882 01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:29,039 we have other places in scripture where occultism seems to be real. You 883 01:15:29,079 --> 01:15:36,000 know, Saul in the Witch of Indoor, you know the Samuel appears. 884 01:15:36,039 --> 01:15:42,199 We have you know, Paul casting out demons. In the Book of Acts. 885 01:15:42,239 --> 01:15:45,279 One of the girl who's a fortune teller is said to have a pythonic 886 01:15:45,279 --> 01:15:47,439 spirit. I think in the Greek it says something like that. You know, 887 01:15:47,520 --> 01:15:54,199 Jonathon John Brace are said to mimic the first two quote miracles. I 888 01:15:54,239 --> 01:15:56,720 mean, whether they did miracles or not. I mean, in other words, 889 01:15:56,960 --> 01:16:00,359 we have some instances in scripture where there does appear to be real monic 890 01:16:00,479 --> 01:16:04,960 activity. So I wouldn't say that all occultism is fake and gray just from 891 01:16:05,000 --> 01:16:10,560 the Elijah story, but certainly the prophets of Bill didn't seem to have any 892 01:16:10,640 --> 01:16:13,359 any powers. Did you go ahead? Man? Got on, I mute 893 01:16:13,399 --> 01:16:17,079 your own you got your hand raised? Go ahead? Okay, yes, 894 01:16:17,399 --> 01:16:23,279 okay, yeah, what's up? I'm doing pretty good? So can I 895 01:16:23,319 --> 01:16:26,439 assume that? Oh? Real quick? Huge fan of you. I see 896 01:16:26,720 --> 01:16:30,560 Rachel Wilson and listening to a huge fan of her and a husband, I 897 01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:34,159 just want to say, right quick, uh, if we all believe in 898 01:16:34,199 --> 01:16:39,880 a universal Catholic and Aposolic Church, and I assume we all agree in this, 899 01:16:39,960 --> 01:16:44,399 right I'm Catholic, Well we don't. We don't accept that the Roman 900 01:16:44,439 --> 01:16:47,600 Catholic Church is still part of that body. Fine, yeah, but the 901 01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:51,279 thing with the Roman Catholic Church is the Roman part is just the Western Rice. 902 01:16:51,319 --> 01:16:56,359 We have Eastern Rice. So this twenty three No, it's not it's 903 01:16:56,399 --> 01:16:59,039 not no, no, no, it's not about right. It's about the 904 01:16:59,439 --> 01:17:03,239 Roman Sea and Vatican one. So it's not just about the rights. Yeah, 905 01:17:03,279 --> 01:17:09,880 I understand all that. Mostly this is not I mean, it's somewhat 906 01:17:09,920 --> 01:17:13,439 of a theological issue, but that can be worked going to various councils. 907 01:17:14,119 --> 01:17:17,840 This was an ancient political tension that happens between the Western Roman Empire and the 908 01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:21,439 Eastern Roman Empire. That's what this is about now, and that's part of 909 01:17:21,479 --> 01:17:26,359 it. That's what we already argued earlier. It's partly geopolitical, but it's 910 01:17:26,399 --> 01:17:30,079 also theological. We can never accept the double eternal hyposthetic procession. We can 911 01:17:30,119 --> 01:17:35,520 never accept created grace, and you don't have to because it's not necessary that 912 01:17:35,560 --> 01:17:40,399 you do that under the Eastern Rice. So no, that's not true. 913 01:17:40,520 --> 01:17:45,560 That's not true. Eastern Riot Catholics are expected to accept Vatican One, regardless 914 01:17:45,560 --> 01:17:48,800 of the fact that Melchites and other people pretend like they don't have to. 915 01:17:48,960 --> 01:17:56,239 It's just simply not true. All that says is that it's a contradictory position 916 01:17:56,720 --> 01:18:00,199 that allows for you to pretend that you don't exc that Vatican one. But 917 01:18:00,279 --> 01:18:03,880 Vatican one is binding on everybody. So it's just it's just a made up 918 01:18:03,880 --> 01:18:08,279 thing that Eastern Catholics don't have to accept Vatican one. Vatican one does not 919 01:18:08,359 --> 01:18:14,640 speak that way. Certainly, a Vatican one could be changed. So no, 920 01:18:14,800 --> 01:18:17,399 Vatican one cannot be changed. What are you talking about. No, 921 01:18:17,479 --> 01:18:23,840 it cannot. You can't change that's an Acumenical councils dogma. You can't change 922 01:18:23,880 --> 01:18:29,199 dogma from the from the seat of the pope. You can because he can, 923 01:18:29,199 --> 01:18:31,520 he can declare infallibility and change it. Okay, so it can no, 924 01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:35,640 And well all that says no, Well, all that says is that 925 01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:41,399 the position again is inconsistent because supposedly unchangeable dogma can be changed by the pope. 926 01:18:41,439 --> 01:18:45,319 So again that's another reputation of the position. So that's fine, we 927 01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:49,960 understand the history. How is that fine If that's a contradiction, it's fine 928 01:18:50,000 --> 01:18:56,920 because the Western Church had to deal with more uh than that's than the Eastern 929 01:18:57,000 --> 01:19:00,279 Church did at the time. It was a lot of changes that the Western 930 01:19:00,560 --> 01:19:06,399 Church made to acclimate to the various populations to get them on board. So 931 01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:12,479 then when you look at the shit number, difference between how many Catholics they 932 01:19:12,479 --> 01:19:16,079 are and there as many Orthodox they are is not much bigger than a Protestant 933 01:19:16,279 --> 01:19:20,159 denomination. That's not true. But it's also a fallacy. So you moved 934 01:19:20,159 --> 01:19:25,000 to a fallacy of a numbers game. So was the true Church determined by 935 01:19:25,079 --> 01:19:29,800 numbers when most of the church was aryan or semiarian in the fourth century? 936 01:19:29,880 --> 01:19:34,079 The true Church is based on Apostolic secession. I just asked you now that 937 01:19:34,640 --> 01:19:39,319 you're not answering the question. In the fourth century, the numbers game was 938 01:19:39,359 --> 01:19:42,159 on the side of the Arians and the semi arians. So is the numbers 939 01:19:42,199 --> 01:19:45,680 game or not? No, not necessarily. I'm talking more strategically, So 940 01:19:45,720 --> 01:19:53,760 I'm not saying I'm saying I want to see a universal Aposolic church. It 941 01:19:53,800 --> 01:19:59,039 already exists. So it's not determined by numbers. Catholicity is determined by the 942 01:19:59,039 --> 01:20:02,000 fullness of truth. That's why Saint Maximus says that I would be amongst the 943 01:20:02,039 --> 01:20:05,960 small band of true Catholics even if most of the bishops were not Catholic. 944 01:20:08,479 --> 01:20:15,119 Do you want to save the solo everyone on earth? Again, you're presupposing 945 01:20:15,239 --> 01:20:19,000 that we're both part of a giant ecumenical church, and we're not. I 946 01:20:19,079 --> 01:20:25,800 understand that Orthodox don't see to see Catholics as being so, then just stating 947 01:20:25,880 --> 01:20:30,880 to me an ecumenical position doesn't prove your position. Your position is incorrect. 948 01:20:30,399 --> 01:20:33,880 No, well, let me articklate. My position. My position is this, 949 01:20:34,840 --> 01:20:39,319 My position is there are way more Catholics than the Orthodox. I already 950 01:20:39,359 --> 01:20:43,279 addressed the numbers argument. You don't understand why that's a bad argument. No, 951 01:20:43,279 --> 01:20:45,359 no, no, that's not That's only a part of the argument. 952 01:20:45,439 --> 01:20:48,399 So the argument doesn't consist of just when Clinton. So it exists through a 953 01:20:48,439 --> 01:20:53,159 series of premises, and we'll get to a conclusive all right, So deductively, 954 01:20:53,319 --> 01:20:57,600 so I can say, uh, the vast majority of well Christian's period 955 01:20:57,600 --> 01:21:05,279 of Catholic is the largest church that has Apostolic succession. Uh. All you 956 01:21:05,359 --> 01:21:09,239 need to be to be Christian is just except the nice and creat We can 957 01:21:09,479 --> 01:21:13,319 discuss it for the real quake. But outside of that, the point is 958 01:21:13,359 --> 01:21:17,359 strategically Okay, So so in other words, we're not gonna care about We're 959 01:21:17,359 --> 01:21:20,600 not going to care about correct doctrine. We're gonna make up an idea. 960 01:21:20,640 --> 01:21:24,960 What's strategic. No, no, no, we do care about. Now 961 01:21:25,000 --> 01:21:30,239 you're moving the gold post. Conversation can be had within the church, So 962 01:21:30,399 --> 01:21:33,840 that can be had. We understand all of the history associated with it. 963 01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:41,319 We're in the present right now. This is this is just us author. 964 01:21:41,760 --> 01:21:45,079 How is this an argument? How is this an argument for the Roman county 965 01:21:45,159 --> 01:21:48,119 position? All I'm hearing is you talking around a bunch of stuff. Where's 966 01:21:48,119 --> 01:21:54,119 the argument? Okay, here's the argument. The pope was always considered the 967 01:21:54,119 --> 01:21:59,039 first and most equals. I believe that all the patriarchs of all of Orthodoxy, 968 01:21:59,399 --> 01:22:02,560 the original four, which is, like you said, Rome, Alexander, 969 01:22:02,920 --> 01:22:08,720 Alexandria, and and Jerusalem. Uh, and then of course Constantinople later 970 01:22:08,800 --> 01:22:13,439 on at the Constantine. We believe all of those is legitimate, and to 971 01:22:13,520 --> 01:22:17,680 a degree even Anglican is. To a degree Anglican is drastically moved away from 972 01:22:17,720 --> 01:22:21,119 Doshrin. But they also Okay, So your argument is that because the Roman 973 01:22:21,199 --> 01:22:27,279 Cality Church accepts a wider swath of what's considered Christian, that strategically means it's 974 01:22:27,319 --> 01:22:31,600 better and approves it. That's a terrible argument. No, because it's bigger, 975 01:22:31,640 --> 01:22:35,760 it accepts more and is more. Again, I already addressed these arguments. 976 01:22:36,279 --> 01:22:40,640 I already addressed these arguments. So you're just gonna keep talking around it, 977 01:22:41,600 --> 01:22:45,680 Boycott, what's up? Those are terrible arguments. I mean by that 978 01:22:45,680 --> 01:22:50,720 line of argumentation, the more broad I make, the most acumenist position is 979 01:22:50,720 --> 01:22:56,039 therefore true. So why don't I just be a perennialist and say that, 980 01:22:56,159 --> 01:22:59,880 oh, we're all on the same team because all the religion that's actually the 981 01:23:00,000 --> 01:23:05,239 attitude of Nosratate is that all the scale of the world religions, they're all 982 01:23:05,279 --> 01:23:11,840 on a graded scale, and the Muslims are like forty percent correct, so 983 01:23:11,880 --> 01:23:16,279 they're part of our strategic alliance as well. So if I just move the 984 01:23:16,319 --> 01:23:24,840 goalpost, that makes the position true. That's a terrible argument. Exactly, 985 01:23:24,960 --> 01:23:28,239 People in the chat. Well, by this argument, Islam is part of 986 01:23:28,239 --> 01:23:30,159 the faith too. Yeah, exactly, that's the whole attitude of nos Ratate. 987 01:23:32,039 --> 01:23:34,760 Well, we all call them the same God because the worship one God. 988 01:23:39,880 --> 01:23:44,520 What does LUMANGENTM. Sixteen say? Right here, We're all calling on 989 01:23:44,600 --> 01:23:47,720 the same God because there's one God. Part of the problem with that argument 990 01:23:47,760 --> 01:23:53,439 two J is that if all these different sects have Apotholic succession, and then 991 01:23:53,600 --> 01:23:57,600 all of their priesthoods are valid, included to Anglicans, then all of their 992 01:23:57,640 --> 01:24:00,800 sacraments are valid. Well, actually need to be part of the Roman Catholic 993 01:24:00,920 --> 01:24:06,840 Church to receive the sacraments, you know what I mean. Yeah, the 994 01:24:06,920 --> 01:24:11,840 Roman Catholic position is that you need the sacraments in order to be saved. 995 01:24:11,880 --> 01:24:15,000 And you say, well, look, the sacraments are outside of Catholicism, 996 01:24:15,359 --> 01:24:17,920 then you can be saved outside of it as well. Yeah, And I 997 01:24:17,920 --> 01:24:24,039 mean he's not even correct. Leo the thirteenth already stated about the nullity of 998 01:24:24,079 --> 01:24:32,359 Anglican orders. So the Roman Catholic position Apostolica cure Anglicans do not have order 999 01:24:32,760 --> 01:24:36,760 valid. They do not have valid episodic succession. According to pote Leo the 1000 01:24:36,800 --> 01:24:40,680 thirteen. So again, oh well maybe now they do. So again, 1001 01:24:40,800 --> 01:24:44,800 this is an ever evolving changing thing, and this guy should understand he made 1002 01:24:44,840 --> 01:24:46,520 that. So he said, well, the Pope can do this. The 1003 01:24:46,520 --> 01:24:48,640 Pope can change Vatican one, you know, as he said, the Pope 1004 01:24:48,640 --> 01:24:53,239 can change. No, he can't. Oh but wait, he actually can, 1005 01:24:53,399 --> 01:24:56,520 because the religion is a worship of the Pope. That's the whole religion. 1006 01:24:56,960 --> 01:25:01,079 So even though in eighteen sixty nine, eighteen ninety six Anglicans don't have 1007 01:25:01,159 --> 01:25:05,039 valid orders, well according to the post Vatican Oh non, Now maybe they 1008 01:25:05,039 --> 01:25:09,680 can't. You see. So it's always subject to flux and change, and 1009 01:25:09,720 --> 01:25:12,880 it's really at the whims of what the Pope says, uh, which is 1010 01:25:13,199 --> 01:25:15,880 whatever the need is of the time. So it's nothing to do with it's 1011 01:25:15,880 --> 01:25:20,319 objectively true. It's literally based around the Fiat, the divine word of the 1012 01:25:20,319 --> 01:25:30,560 Pope, and that's why the position is obviously not true. Not go ahead, 1013 01:25:31,520 --> 01:25:39,000 hello, yep hi. Yeah, So I guess what's convinced me of 1014 01:25:39,000 --> 01:25:45,600 Catholicism is the overwhelming evidence that Catholicism has that's unique to Catholicism. So my 1015 01:25:46,159 --> 01:25:51,439 central question I would ask is when God reveals himself publicly? Why does he 1016 01:25:51,520 --> 01:25:58,079 do so exclusively through the Catholic Church? No idea? Where you were? 1017 01:25:58,119 --> 01:26:00,239 I mean, it's a terrible argument. So tell you where I'm going with 1018 01:26:00,319 --> 01:26:02,920 it? Real quick. Well you mentioned all these evidences, So what's the 1019 01:26:02,920 --> 01:26:10,199 evidences you didn't give? I just real quick, I'm there we go fatm 1020 01:26:10,960 --> 01:26:15,800 Okay, So how did three children know the exact time and place that the 1021 01:26:15,880 --> 01:26:19,000 supernatural event would occur? Well, you're assuming it's supernatural, first of all, 1022 01:26:19,119 --> 01:26:23,520 so how do you know that? Okay? So he's not even gonna 1023 01:26:23,520 --> 01:26:26,920 listen? So what hold on? That's what a newspaper says. I have 1024 01:26:26,960 --> 01:26:32,880 newspapers over lied. Yes, but oh but here, no, have you 1025 01:26:32,920 --> 01:26:38,920 have you read it? Have you have you read that? Well, let's 1026 01:26:39,000 --> 01:26:41,439 let's take it to the question. So you're going to say a miracle claim? 1027 01:26:42,760 --> 01:26:45,000 How many? How hold on? Hold on? How many religions and 1028 01:26:45,039 --> 01:26:51,279 groups out there claim miracles? Not many claim public miracles? Worth thousands witness 1029 01:26:51,359 --> 01:26:56,920 it, and there are plenty of Hindu yogis that claim public miracles. Sai 1030 01:26:57,000 --> 01:27:01,560 Baba claimed many public miracles. He had many uh patawan's underneath him that thought 1031 01:27:01,560 --> 01:27:06,319 he was a miracle worker, but not you again. My My point is 1032 01:27:06,319 --> 01:27:10,960 that you in Catholicism, there are thousands of witnesses. Okay, so or 1033 01:27:11,000 --> 01:27:15,720 it's objectively verified, and I can name other instances as well. So hold 1034 01:27:15,760 --> 01:27:19,760 on. So ok so every so Orthodox churches claim miracles, We claim the 1035 01:27:19,760 --> 01:27:26,560 miracle the Holy Fire. Okay, this is publicly witnessed every year in Jerusalem. 1036 01:27:26,800 --> 01:27:30,600 So wait a minute, So what how do I know where the If 1037 01:27:30,600 --> 01:27:35,039 I'm not visibly empirically there, how am I going to judge the faith on 1038 01:27:35,399 --> 01:27:42,720 miracle claims? So? So okay, here, just real, So I 1039 01:27:42,760 --> 01:27:45,960 guess my My answer to that is it's it's different. It's not different. 1040 01:27:46,640 --> 01:27:50,079 You want it to be different. How's it different? Okay, it's different 1041 01:27:50,119 --> 01:27:56,399 in that and that you had, you know, seventy thousand there the consensus 1042 01:27:56,600 --> 01:27:59,399 was, and it wasn't all you know, we're all Catholic Christians. Oh 1043 01:27:59,399 --> 01:28:01,520 okay, So it's a miracle if it's seventy thousand, but not if it's 1044 01:28:01,600 --> 01:28:05,640 I don't know what twenty thousand in Jerusalem, Like, what's the what's the 1045 01:28:05,680 --> 01:28:11,680 miracle proof number? Thirty thousand, fifty thousand? This is arbitrary. I 1046 01:28:11,880 --> 01:28:14,439 look, I agree with with your principle. But here, just let me 1047 01:28:14,520 --> 01:28:16,520 finish my pot real quick. You're very intelligent, but I just want to 1048 01:28:16,520 --> 01:28:20,039 say one thing. So what happened was it was pouring down rain pals. 1049 01:28:20,079 --> 01:28:23,720 Everything I know the story of Fatam I used to be a Roman Catholic man. 1050 01:28:24,560 --> 01:28:27,359 We don't need we don't need the story. Okay, we know what 1051 01:28:27,439 --> 01:28:30,239 Fatima is, we know the claims of it. How am I supposed to 1052 01:28:30,359 --> 01:28:33,960 know that that's the miracle that I go with versus another miracle claim? Is 1053 01:28:34,000 --> 01:28:39,000 it the specific number of people? What's the miracle number? What's the magic 1054 01:28:39,039 --> 01:28:45,039 miracle number? Fifty thousand, thousands of thousands of people witness? And if 1055 01:28:45,439 --> 01:28:51,680 Catholicism is false, then why did how did three children Catholic know the exact 1056 01:28:51,680 --> 01:28:56,520 time and place that this? Yeah? I believe that that's a geopolitically motivated 1057 01:28:56,560 --> 01:29:00,119 story to prepare for World War one, and that the Western Powers use that 1058 01:29:00,520 --> 01:29:04,199 as a way to prepare war with Russia. So you think, okay, 1059 01:29:04,239 --> 01:29:08,800 well, if you think it's a lie, you think that, like everyone 1060 01:29:08,880 --> 01:29:13,000 you know, all the witness stories and the newspaper articles and all of that, 1061 01:29:13,079 --> 01:29:18,880 it's all false. I believe that even if it were true, it 1062 01:29:18,880 --> 01:29:24,279 has nothing to do with proving what religion is true, because every religion has 1063 01:29:24,319 --> 01:29:27,920 all kinds of claims, every religion has all kinds of miracles. So there's 1064 01:29:27,960 --> 01:29:30,399 no way that miracles can be the thing that determined the true and the false 1065 01:29:30,399 --> 01:29:35,560 faith. But not to this degree though, that's arbitrary. That's arbitrary. 1066 01:29:35,600 --> 01:29:39,720 So again I can come up with I mean, if you go to Russia, 1067 01:29:40,479 --> 01:29:43,279 if you go to Russia, you will hear countless stories of miracles. 1068 01:29:43,399 --> 01:29:47,479 Does that how does so do you hear me arguing that that proves orthodoxy because 1069 01:29:47,680 --> 01:29:54,720 in the thousand year history of Russian Orthodoxy there's miracle claims of widay. So 1070 01:29:54,760 --> 01:29:59,239 again this is it doesn't matter because there's no there's nothing about the number of 1071 01:29:59,239 --> 01:30:03,079 witnesses that makes it suddenly that one that's true because there's thousands of witnesses in 1072 01:30:03,159 --> 01:30:06,920 Jerusalem, and you discount that one. So then you have to come up 1073 01:30:06,920 --> 01:30:13,000 with so now there's miracles in the false faith. If there's miracles in the 1074 01:30:13,039 --> 01:30:16,159 false faith, then the miracles don't prove the true faith. No, no, 1075 01:30:16,159 --> 01:30:23,039 no, no. The miracle of the fire in Jerusalem hasn't been objectively 1076 01:30:23,119 --> 01:30:27,560 verified because another example. Okay, so now you're arbitrary. Yeah, so 1077 01:30:27,680 --> 01:30:30,039 right, But I'm supposed to accept one hundred year old news stories that happen 1078 01:30:30,119 --> 01:30:33,560 to fit into geopolitical strategies. Let me ask you a question about Fatima. 1079 01:30:33,920 --> 01:30:39,640 Let me ask you a question about Fatima. Sure, Where does communism come 1080 01:30:39,640 --> 01:30:45,920 from Russia? Okay? Yeah, okay? Does it? Yeah? No 1081 01:30:46,000 --> 01:30:54,640 it doesn't. Where does it come from China? I'm not sure to be 1082 01:30:54,720 --> 01:30:57,399 mean to you, man, but no, it doesn't come from China. 1083 01:30:57,439 --> 01:31:00,279 It doesn't come from Russia. You don't know where communism originates. You to 1084 01:31:00,359 --> 01:31:03,840 believe Fatima, you don't even know where it originates. Tell me it comes 1085 01:31:03,880 --> 01:31:09,239 out of England. Okay, okay, So how come Mary didn't mention that? 1086 01:31:11,000 --> 01:31:16,119 How come Mary didn't mention that she said because there's a geopolitical motivation to 1087 01:31:16,199 --> 01:31:24,520 what she said preparing for World War One? What's your point though? Okay? 1088 01:31:24,520 --> 01:31:28,039 What's my point is that it's not Mary if she's not telling you the 1089 01:31:28,039 --> 01:31:30,720 truth about where it comes from, and she's giving the impression that it comes 1090 01:31:30,720 --> 01:31:34,199 out of Russia. Communism doesn't come from Russia. It comes from England like 1091 01:31:34,279 --> 01:31:42,159 Marx and Ingles, and it was exported to Russia. You don't know this, 1092 01:31:43,039 --> 01:31:49,680 but but in regards of the Mary and apparition. But what I mean, 1093 01:31:54,000 --> 01:32:05,039 because mm hmmm, because that I mean, I'm not trying to be 1094 01:32:05,079 --> 01:32:09,119 mean. I'm gonna have to pull out because if I continue, I'm gonna 1095 01:32:09,119 --> 01:32:12,319 get mean, and then people are gonna use that as an excuse to say 1096 01:32:12,479 --> 01:32:15,960 that I'm just being mean. So I'm not trying to be mean to you. 1097 01:32:15,239 --> 01:32:21,199 Then I'm gonna have to pull out now because I'm gonna start getting sassy 1098 01:32:21,479 --> 01:32:25,840 and that will just be a way for people to get mad at me. 1099 01:32:26,600 --> 01:32:34,279 So so to those that are wondering, my point is that there's no arbitrary 1100 01:32:34,359 --> 01:32:41,680 number to tell us the true miracle. Oh well, when it hits fifty 1101 01:32:41,720 --> 01:32:45,319 thousand people, that's when we know it's the miracle that proves that religion to 1102 01:32:45,359 --> 01:32:47,680 be true. But if you sign up today, you can actually get your 1103 01:32:47,680 --> 01:32:54,319 own miracle calculator where you can calculate the exactly. I mean, this is 1104 01:32:54,319 --> 01:32:56,640 how Roman Catholic thing. I'm not trying to be mean, but this is 1105 01:32:56,760 --> 01:33:02,039 like remember Cameron's Baysing spreadsheet argument that will mathematically prove the papac So this is 1106 01:33:02,079 --> 01:33:08,399 how stupid this is. You could actually if we were actually bad guys, 1107 01:33:08,960 --> 01:33:15,680 we could have a whole like multi marketing pyramid scheme where we send people. 1108 01:33:15,720 --> 01:33:18,680 Think I'm joking. When Cameron says that he converted, he says he converted 1109 01:33:18,680 --> 01:33:27,880 because he came up with a Bayesian spreadsheet quick books argument where mathematically he can 1110 01:33:28,000 --> 01:33:33,000 prove with ninety percent certainty or some ridiculous thing that we are ninety five point 1111 01:33:33,079 --> 01:33:36,640 four percent certain that the papacy is true based on my basing. This is 1112 01:33:36,680 --> 01:33:40,800 so, this is literally the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. 1113 01:33:41,359 --> 01:33:45,039 And how can these miracles testify to the truth of Roman Catholicism. It is 1114 01:33:45,119 --> 01:33:49,880 patently false. Well, you notice that what happens in Roman Catholicism is that 1115 01:33:49,960 --> 01:33:56,560 when people are confronted with the historical and the theological problems, that's all brushed 1116 01:33:56,560 --> 01:34:00,079 aside and then you immediately run to Fatima. And I've talked to so many 1117 01:34:00,119 --> 01:34:03,840 Roman Catholics who will They say, I have to shut my brain off and 1118 01:34:04,000 --> 01:34:09,520 just jump to Fatima because that's what I fall back on. So total irrationality 1119 01:34:09,920 --> 01:34:13,319 for something, by the way, which is supposed to be supremely scholastic and 1120 01:34:13,399 --> 01:34:23,520 rational, but then it's ultimately right. He just went into subjective prost experiences. 1121 01:34:25,560 --> 01:34:28,680 People think I'm joking. This is an actual We did a whole livestream 1122 01:34:28,760 --> 01:34:33,960 laughing and making fun of this preposterous argument from Cameron over here on pints with 1123 01:34:33,960 --> 01:34:41,720 Aquinas where mate Fried. Please tell me, Cameron, as we sit up 1124 01:34:41,720 --> 01:34:45,319 here on top of the Vatican, on the roof of the Vatican, smoking 1125 01:34:45,359 --> 01:34:49,359 seagulls, pretending on Australian giants bond, tell me what's the quick books argument 1126 01:34:49,399 --> 01:34:54,680 for the papacy? Oh well, I'll tell you. I lay down a 1127 01:34:54,760 --> 01:34:57,960 quick book spreadsheet and it proves the papacy. I'm not joking. That's like 1128 01:34:58,000 --> 01:35:02,319 literally what the argument is. Anyway, So we got other roal mechalics who 1129 01:35:02,399 --> 01:35:12,520 want to pop on. I assume Tyler has been whiting for a while. 1130 01:35:12,520 --> 01:35:30,520 What's up, Tyler? You have to unmute Tyler? Can hear me? 1131 01:35:30,880 --> 01:35:33,399 Yeah? Oh there we go? Okay, cool, all right, Jaydyre. 1132 01:35:33,439 --> 01:35:38,399 I'm a big fan. I am merely a student of the faith. 1133 01:35:38,760 --> 01:35:43,079 I am not an expert. So, but I was on the fence between 1134 01:35:43,119 --> 01:35:48,640 Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism. I decided to go with Eastern Catholicism. But I 1135 01:35:48,680 --> 01:35:53,880 thought I might say some of my objections and see how you refute it. 1136 01:35:53,920 --> 01:35:55,840 I won't be able to. Okay, Before we go to that, I 1137 01:35:55,840 --> 01:35:59,279 want to ask you, uh, you know, I think David made kind 1138 01:35:59,279 --> 01:36:04,399 of the ultimate kill shot video where you know, really Eastern Catholicism is the 1139 01:36:04,479 --> 01:36:10,520 strongest argument against Roman Catholicism. So, you know, how do we get 1140 01:36:10,920 --> 01:36:15,039 mar Mary Nestorius being revered? How do we get revisionism to where people who 1141 01:36:15,079 --> 01:36:21,560 are considered heretics like Polla, mos markov Ephesis, Photius, now they're revitalized 1142 01:36:21,560 --> 01:36:25,359 and renovated to be saints. I mean, does that not tell you that 1143 01:36:25,439 --> 01:36:30,000 this is a geopolitically motivated, altering and changing position where people who are heretics 1144 01:36:30,000 --> 01:36:33,800 for centuries can suddenly be saints. Yeah, that's that's a that's a tough 1145 01:36:33,840 --> 01:36:41,000 one. I think there are that It's it's hard to say. I'm still 1146 01:36:41,039 --> 01:36:43,760 trying to work that out. Okay, Well have you have you seen David's 1147 01:36:43,800 --> 01:36:47,239 classic video on that? No, okay, well here's the video. Eastern 1148 01:36:47,239 --> 01:36:54,319 Catholicism refutes Rome and he fleshes out a lot of these types of arguments. 1149 01:36:54,399 --> 01:37:00,039 So go ahead, okay, Okay, cool, So I one of the 1150 01:37:00,119 --> 01:37:05,600 things that really was tough for me is in there is an argument made by 1151 01:37:05,600 --> 01:37:15,000 Pope Leo he opposed Canon twenty eight of the Council of calcel Ony. Okay, 1152 01:37:15,119 --> 01:37:16,720 so I'm familiar. So do you know did you look into why he 1153 01:37:16,760 --> 01:37:25,119 opposed it? Yeah? I guess I really like the idea that I don't 1154 01:37:25,199 --> 01:37:30,479 like that Constantinople could just be declared the second See without any Apostolic pedigree, 1155 01:37:30,119 --> 01:37:34,960 and I guess that was But do you understand Rome eventually agreed to that. 1156 01:37:38,479 --> 01:37:42,319 No, I didn't understand it. Yeah, so a couple hundred years after 1157 01:37:42,439 --> 01:37:50,279 Pope Leo, Rome accepts that Conceptinople is second. Oh okay, yeah, 1158 01:37:51,039 --> 01:37:56,800 but but okay, okay, that's I'm not going to refute your arguments because 1159 01:37:56,840 --> 01:37:59,000 I'm not I'm not an ext No, that's true. You can go look 1160 01:37:59,000 --> 01:38:03,000 it up. But the other thing I would like to say is that, 1161 01:38:03,239 --> 01:38:12,079 uh, would you say that Pope Leo uh saw the saw didn't wouldn't you 1162 01:38:12,119 --> 01:38:16,880 think that Pope Leo had saw Roman supremacy in a similar way as defined by 1163 01:38:17,000 --> 01:38:21,279 Vatican One? No, not at all. Really, No, if you 1164 01:38:23,079 --> 01:38:28,920 read about what they did at Calcidon, did they just accept what Leo said, 1165 01:38:28,920 --> 01:38:34,119 and Leo spoke case closed. No, they spent several days comparing what 1166 01:38:34,199 --> 01:38:39,960 Leo says to Cyril. Cyril was the test of orthodoxy at Calcedon, not 1167 01:38:40,079 --> 01:38:48,439 Leo. Okay, And have you watched Father Price on Reason and Theology? 1168 01:38:49,000 --> 01:38:53,760 No? Okay? Well, when Father Price is on Leo Ari is on 1169 01:38:53,920 --> 01:38:59,399 Reason and Theology with Lofton and Ibarra, they say, what do you think 1170 01:38:59,439 --> 01:39:03,920 about paper supremacy at at Chalcedon? And he says there is no preapal supremacy 1171 01:39:03,920 --> 01:39:08,399 at Calcidon. And they pulled down that clip because it was an embarrassment. 1172 01:39:10,560 --> 01:39:15,159 And he's the one, He's the one that's the translator of the councils that 1173 01:39:15,279 --> 01:39:18,199 everyone accepts the price. The price, Tuls, all right, let me 1174 01:39:18,199 --> 01:39:25,560 play it for it. I've got it over here on my my clips page, 1175 01:39:26,119 --> 01:39:36,520 okay. And I said, what about breakfast there, Tiffany, as 1176 01:39:36,600 --> 01:39:42,399 you said, I think I remember those some Then all right, here it 1177 01:39:42,479 --> 01:39:49,039 is, let's see shorts. It's a short clip. All right, So 1178 01:39:49,119 --> 01:40:00,880 this is Father Price on Reason and Theology. I can't get the worst of 1179 01:40:01,000 --> 01:40:12,239 sound? Was there no sound? Heeded him? Hold on, I gotta 1180 01:40:12,279 --> 01:40:16,279 go back to the beginning of right now, hold on, here we go, 1181 01:40:20,560 --> 01:40:30,000 seated him. It's not letting me move the cursor back to the beginning 1182 01:40:30,000 --> 01:40:34,199 of this held one. I owe the banks a lot of money, but 1183 01:40:34,359 --> 01:40:46,520 little do they know. Hold on, this is grabbing me crazy. Kay 1184 01:40:53,439 --> 01:41:02,000 made my screen a little bit smaller to reach the button. Kay and Chalcedon 1185 01:41:02,079 --> 01:41:08,479 feel they needed to judge Theodora. If Leo had already reinsated him, why 1186 01:41:08,479 --> 01:41:13,239 did Calcedon feel the need to judge Theodore it if Leo had, as the 1187 01:41:13,279 --> 01:41:20,399 pope had already reinstated him, is the question to Price. They didn't they 1188 01:41:20,439 --> 01:41:30,000 didn't recognize Roman jurisdiction in the Eastern provinces. Uh oh so, and then 1189 01:41:30,159 --> 01:41:36,119 Eborro's face drops and you can't believe that he said that. Now, this 1190 01:41:38,119 --> 01:41:43,960 is echoed in the scholarship that Rome now promotes and accepts both at the chi 1191 01:41:43,960 --> 01:41:48,319 eighty document, paragraph nineteen, which says that the Roman bishop did not express 1192 01:41:48,640 --> 01:41:54,239 canonical authority or exercise canonical authority over the churches of the East, exactly what 1193 01:41:54,399 --> 01:41:59,960 Price says. And then the Alexandria document goes way further than the Chiady document 1194 01:42:00,359 --> 01:42:04,640 and it mets about ninety of the Orthodox arguments against the paper. Oh wow, 1195 01:42:08,359 --> 01:42:12,840 yeah, have you read the Alexander document? No, okay, so 1196 01:42:12,920 --> 01:42:18,840 this is a paper. Let's see what else were they gonna say? Uh, 1197 01:42:18,880 --> 01:42:26,479 there's there's one other thing I wanted to say. Let's see what was 1198 01:42:26,520 --> 01:42:42,760 it? Oh? Oh yeah, yah, the Council of Sartica. So 1199 01:42:43,159 --> 01:42:49,159 the uh what The one thing I kept getting in like Orthodox circles was Rome 1200 01:42:49,239 --> 01:42:54,119 had this primacy of honor, which just didn't jive well with me because it 1201 01:42:54,279 --> 01:43:01,239 just like didn't seem consistent with history that like, certainly Rome way more of 1202 01:43:01,279 --> 01:43:06,920 a primacy than just honor, And I think the Council of Sartica was just 1203 01:43:06,960 --> 01:43:12,600 a clear rebuttal of that. Yeah, I totally disagree. In fact, 1204 01:43:12,880 --> 01:43:17,399 if you read the very document I just mentioned, paragraph nineteen three sentences prior 1205 01:43:17,520 --> 01:43:21,279 to the statement that the Bishop of Rome did not exercise authority in the East 1206 01:43:21,560 --> 01:43:25,720 is about the Canons of Sartica, and then we read it. Over the 1207 01:43:25,720 --> 01:43:28,880 century, many appeals were made to the Bishop of Rome from the East in 1208 01:43:28,920 --> 01:43:32,000 disciplinary matters, such as the deposition of a bishop. Attempt was made at 1209 01:43:32,000 --> 01:43:36,439 the Sonata of Sartica in three forty three to establish rules for this procedure Sartica 1210 01:43:36,520 --> 01:43:40,920 was received at the Council of Trollo in six po ninety two. The Canons 1211 01:43:40,960 --> 01:43:44,520 of Sartica determined that a bishop who had been condemned could appeal to the Bishop 1212 01:43:44,560 --> 01:43:46,960 of Rome, and that the latter, if he deemed appropriate, could order 1213 01:43:47,039 --> 01:43:53,880 a retrial to be conducted by the bishops in the province neighboring the bishop's own. 1214 01:43:53,960 --> 01:43:58,079 See it's not a de facto autocratic move of the Bishop of Rome. 1215 01:43:58,520 --> 01:44:02,880 Appeals regarding these discipline matters were also made to Constantinople and to other seas. 1216 01:44:03,159 --> 01:44:06,960 The very thing I said in the Abarro debate when I debated Abarrow, which 1217 01:44:08,000 --> 01:44:11,159 they were all laughing at, but is right here. In their own Roman 1218 01:44:11,199 --> 01:44:15,119 documents, such appeals to seas were always treated in a synotical way. So 1219 01:44:15,159 --> 01:44:19,800 the very argument that Roman Catholics try to make is in this Roman Catholic papally 1220 01:44:19,800 --> 01:44:28,279 approved document admitted to be interpreted in the Orthodox view. I see, Okay, 1221 01:44:29,920 --> 01:44:35,279 yeah, if you read Sartica, it's retrial, it's not autocratic unilateral 1222 01:44:35,279 --> 01:44:43,159 operations, and and and and it admits that there's appeals were made to Constantinople. 1223 01:44:43,159 --> 01:44:45,600 And I think even Alexandria. I think even Athenacious. There's discussions of 1224 01:44:46,119 --> 01:44:53,880 appeals being made to Athenacious. Uh uh at Alexandri. So I brought that 1225 01:44:53,960 --> 01:44:56,439 up in the in the in the bar debate, and people were lacking, 1226 01:44:56,479 --> 01:45:00,520 like that's not true. It is true. Yeah, I did. I 1227 01:45:00,600 --> 01:45:02,840 never you know, it was tough for me to assent to Vatican One, 1228 01:45:03,079 --> 01:45:09,920 but it just I just could not see Rome as just being a primacy of 1229 01:45:09,960 --> 01:45:12,560 honor. I knew that it was more than that, but at the same 1230 01:45:12,600 --> 01:45:17,640 time, Vatican One was the language. In Vatican One. It's hard for 1231 01:45:17,640 --> 01:45:23,960 me to reconcile that with the well setting aside all these reconciliation of these ancient 1232 01:45:24,000 --> 01:45:28,039 documents, does it look like the present day Vatican has maintained the faith of 1233 01:45:28,039 --> 01:45:32,640 the ancient church praying in mosques towards Mecca? Uh? You know, It's 1234 01:45:32,840 --> 01:45:39,680 it's tough because I feel like liberalism is creeped into all churches. But this 1235 01:45:39,720 --> 01:45:43,319 is different because this is the Roman Church is built on the guy in Rome. 1236 01:45:44,039 --> 01:45:49,880 The Orthodox Church is not built on one. Dude. Yeah, but 1237 01:45:50,319 --> 01:45:55,560 ultimately, well, but do you believe in indefectibility? Right? Because I 1238 01:45:55,560 --> 01:46:00,359 mean the selling point of Rome is infallibility, indefectibility, solutions to crises, 1239 01:46:01,079 --> 01:46:06,000 preservation of unity. Do you believe that that's what Rome does? Do you 1240 01:46:06,079 --> 01:46:12,079 accept that we worship the same God as Muslims and Jews and Hindus. You 1241 01:46:12,479 --> 01:46:17,119 know, I I sent to the Vatican one teaching without fully understanding at this 1242 01:46:17,159 --> 01:46:21,880 point. That's really where this is Vatican two teaching though, Yeah, and 1243 01:46:23,000 --> 01:46:26,239 Vatican two obviously I have to so as a Catholic, I have to. 1244 01:46:26,680 --> 01:46:30,319 But I would say that I'm questioning it at this point. I'm trying to 1245 01:46:30,399 --> 01:46:33,600 like do my research. I just I've been on the fence for a while. 1246 01:46:33,680 --> 01:46:35,880 I understand. I mean I struggle with it too for a while. 1247 01:46:35,880 --> 01:46:41,920 I understand it. Guy throwing one thought, Tyler just something they considered. 1248 01:46:42,399 --> 01:46:45,159 Yeah, I mean, forget forgive me because I don't want this to sound 1249 01:46:45,159 --> 01:46:48,600 harsh. We obviously don't know each other, so this is not a personal 1250 01:46:48,600 --> 01:46:56,760 criticism or attack or anything like that. But it sounds very cultish. So 1251 01:46:56,840 --> 01:47:00,640 it's like you you get into arguments that don't make sense, that don't add 1252 01:47:00,720 --> 01:47:03,880 up. You don't like, you can't trust the things that you're seeing right 1253 01:47:03,880 --> 01:47:08,399 in front of your eyes, and then the response is like yeah, but 1254 01:47:08,479 --> 01:47:12,520 like I have to believe those things, and it's like that's not a good 1255 01:47:12,960 --> 01:47:15,720 that's not a good place to be. I've been Orthodox for seventeen years and 1256 01:47:16,640 --> 01:47:20,960 I literally can say I've never had that attitude, Like I've never I've never 1257 01:47:21,039 --> 01:47:26,039 stopped and thought, you know what, the church is doing something totally caddy 1258 01:47:26,079 --> 01:47:30,399 wampus that doesn't make any sense whatsoever, And I've just got to kind of 1259 01:47:30,399 --> 01:47:32,600 turn my brain off and just accept it. This is part of being Orthodox 1260 01:47:32,600 --> 01:47:35,960 that I have to kind of accept this type of behavior, you know what 1261 01:47:36,000 --> 01:47:41,399 I'm saying. So, yeah, that's that's true. But you would you 1262 01:47:41,439 --> 01:47:45,800 guys, how'd you guys feel about like female deacons. Well, it's not 1263 01:47:45,840 --> 01:47:49,920 even how we feel about female deacons. It's like you have a group in 1264 01:47:50,039 --> 01:47:56,239 Alexandria who's been making a lot of unilateral decisions in their own diocese. If 1265 01:47:56,279 --> 01:48:00,000 you actually understand what's going on there, they've had huge problems with their own 1266 01:48:00,079 --> 01:48:04,399 clergy, being upset with their local bishops because they're not listening to them right. 1267 01:48:04,439 --> 01:48:09,039 So there's a whole host of issues that are going on that were prior 1268 01:48:09,119 --> 01:48:13,560 to this, and then you have them quote unquote or dating a deaconess to 1269 01:48:13,800 --> 01:48:17,760 a role that has never existed historically within the church. But you know, 1270 01:48:18,039 --> 01:48:23,319 again, I don't have to say that I accept that, right. That's 1271 01:48:23,319 --> 01:48:27,720 the difference is that if I'm Roman Catholic and the Pope does all these catywampus 1272 01:48:27,760 --> 01:48:30,800 things, I have to say, well, I'm wrong, even though you 1273 01:48:30,840 --> 01:48:34,439 know what I'm saying, I'm wrong, even though it looks like what he's 1274 01:48:34,479 --> 01:48:41,239 doing is really wrong and heretical because he can't make the he can't make he 1275 01:48:41,279 --> 01:48:43,960 can't make bad decisions, he can't do bad things. And I think that's 1276 01:48:43,960 --> 01:48:45,399 the point that Jay's going back to, is like, look, since the 1277 01:48:45,439 --> 01:48:49,399 beginning of Christianity, there's been heretics in the church. That's that's not a 1278 01:48:49,520 --> 01:48:54,439 new This isn't like a new concept or something. The point being that when 1279 01:48:54,439 --> 01:48:59,319 you when everything relies upon papal decree and papal decision, you basically have to 1280 01:48:59,319 --> 01:49:02,560 turn your brain off to all kinds of wackadoodle things that literally, you know, 1281 01:49:02,720 --> 01:49:08,000 don't make any sense whatsoever. Father. That's an interesting point too, 1282 01:49:08,319 --> 01:49:12,359 Like we see a lot of this, especially the Roman Catholics, that when 1283 01:49:12,399 --> 01:49:16,840 a problem comes in, we're having obviously a problem in Alexandria, that happened, 1284 01:49:17,720 --> 01:49:23,000 that this is just unheard of in history. We've never seen well they 1285 01:49:23,119 --> 01:49:26,600 all have church history. Like well, it's like a gotcha moment, like 1286 01:49:26,600 --> 01:49:30,159 oh we got you, and we're like wow. So well we agree to 1287 01:49:30,199 --> 01:49:34,199 disagree, like we agree that it shouldn't have happened, and we agree with 1288 01:49:34,239 --> 01:49:38,760 the canons on why it shouldn't have happened. Right, the woman was not 1289 01:49:38,800 --> 01:49:42,119 a monastic, he's not forty years old, you know, like there's you 1290 01:49:42,159 --> 01:49:45,439 know, she's serving in a liturgical role that's never existed in the church. 1291 01:49:45,880 --> 01:49:48,920 Right, we can make that argument and we're not outside of the church or 1292 01:49:48,960 --> 01:49:54,239 in open rebellion or defiance or anything else for saying that. Yeah, I 1293 01:49:54,279 --> 01:49:57,520 think that the key, Oh that's your problem. Yeah, the key is 1294 01:49:57,560 --> 01:50:00,680 to see that it's not a question of who's got more or less liberalism. 1295 01:50:00,760 --> 01:50:06,000 It's not. That's not it. It's a question of which system has systemic 1296 01:50:06,199 --> 01:50:11,600 level problems that invalidate the system. That's the difference. So if you have 1297 01:50:11,640 --> 01:50:15,840 a decentralized church, which we would we would admit, for example, many 1298 01:50:15,880 --> 01:50:19,880 patriarchs of Constantinople in church history have been heretics. That doesn't that doesn't affect 1299 01:50:19,920 --> 01:50:25,560 the Orthodox worldview or ecclesiological structure. It's not a good thing. It's a 1300 01:50:25,560 --> 01:50:30,000 bad thing, but it's not like devastating to the system. If the Roman 1301 01:50:30,079 --> 01:50:35,560 See defects and teaches error for the church, then that's devastating to the system. 1302 01:50:35,640 --> 01:50:41,199 So this is two different it's different different types of problems determine whether the 1303 01:50:41,239 --> 01:50:44,479 system works or not. And I know, and I know this is going 1304 01:50:44,560 --> 01:50:48,000 to sound kind of silly or maybe trite to some people, but honestly, 1305 01:50:49,359 --> 01:50:54,720 a lot I feel like a lot of this stuff, honestly, it just 1306 01:50:54,760 --> 01:50:59,159 has to do with manhood. And there's this weird cope where you have to 1307 01:50:59,199 --> 01:51:04,399 be you have to be lockstep with the pope and he's like he's your defining 1308 01:51:04,479 --> 01:51:12,760 figure. It's a weird it's a weird anti masculine take. And beyond that, 1309 01:51:13,159 --> 01:51:15,680 when you talk about the systemic, you know, problems, it's like 1310 01:51:16,399 --> 01:51:21,319 the homosexuality amongst the clergy. I mean, this is not something we're making 1311 01:51:21,399 --> 01:51:26,279 up. This is something. I mean, I've heard from numerous Roman Catholics 1312 01:51:26,479 --> 01:51:28,600 who are like, yeah, you know, when so and so went to 1313 01:51:28,680 --> 01:51:31,800 seminary, all the you know, basically all the guys he was in seminary 1314 01:51:31,800 --> 01:51:38,880 with were all homosexual and this was a known thing I talk about my Eastern 1315 01:51:38,880 --> 01:51:44,399 Catholic priest. He mentioned that in seminary there's definitely a huge problem with homosexuality. 1316 01:51:44,800 --> 01:51:47,119 I mean, I mean, I mean, yeah, huge would be 1317 01:51:47,319 --> 01:51:54,199 almost an understatement with how it's like patistrophic. It's almost to the point where 1318 01:51:54,800 --> 01:52:00,279 it's literally just it's just active. The problem is too a lot of these 1319 01:52:00,319 --> 01:52:04,119 guys are active homosexual, Like it's not even it's not even that you're that 1320 01:52:04,199 --> 01:52:08,960 you're just getting homosexual. I'm not throwing a you know what I mean, 1321 01:52:09,000 --> 01:52:12,720 I'm not throwing shade at them. Obviously we know there were saints and holy 1322 01:52:12,800 --> 01:52:17,600 people within Orthodoxy who did things, but they are people who are active in 1323 01:52:17,640 --> 01:52:25,039 that participation of those activities, and that's where you're getting all your clergy from. 1324 01:52:25,600 --> 01:52:28,359 To me, it's like it's weird. I just I don't know why 1325 01:52:28,399 --> 01:52:30,520 people go, oh man, the you know what I really want to do 1326 01:52:30,560 --> 01:52:33,439 is go hang out with a bunch of gay priests and it's like, bro, 1327 01:52:34,119 --> 01:52:39,279 go to Orthodox, you get a bunch of you know, like you 1328 01:52:39,279 --> 01:52:42,159 know, you get a bunch of and I hate the word based, but 1329 01:52:42,239 --> 01:52:46,119 you get a lot of solid men who are married, those in queerdos, 1330 01:52:46,199 --> 01:52:50,960 you know, like they're just normal guys. Anyways, a little random. 1331 01:52:51,560 --> 01:52:54,439 I appreciate that. Yeah, I was. I was on the fence for 1332 01:52:54,520 --> 01:52:58,239 a very long time. I was even going to Father Josiah's parrish at Riversite. 1333 01:52:58,279 --> 01:53:02,399 And then I just felt like I needed to start partaking in the sacramental 1334 01:53:02,439 --> 01:53:06,520 life, even though I'm still like a student. So maybe I made a 1335 01:53:06,560 --> 01:53:11,560 quick judgment, but I just I thought that, like it's more important for 1336 01:53:12,319 --> 01:53:15,239 me to partake in the sacramental life. That's why I went Eastern Catholic, 1337 01:53:15,279 --> 01:53:20,640 because I saw Eastern as like the ultimate fence sitters basically. Yeah, but 1338 01:53:20,800 --> 01:53:25,479 and the problem, the problem with all that is is like you're being initiated 1339 01:53:25,560 --> 01:53:31,239 into something right, and so it's hard to be initiated into something period. 1340 01:53:31,439 --> 01:53:35,000 And as a man, you know, that's just that is part of the 1341 01:53:35,119 --> 01:53:39,399 process, you know. You know what I'm saying, Like I lift weights 1342 01:53:39,439 --> 01:53:41,720 and I've got a couple of guys who live weights with me at my house. 1343 01:53:42,279 --> 01:53:46,039 Nobody shows up on day one and impresses everybody. That's okay, nobody's 1344 01:53:46,079 --> 01:53:49,720 gonna put you down for doing that. But what we're looking for is effort, 1345 01:53:49,760 --> 01:53:55,800 integrity over time to prove yourself as being part of the group. That's 1346 01:53:55,840 --> 01:54:01,600 a normal masculine experience of being with other men. And anybody who goes, 1347 01:54:01,680 --> 01:54:04,960 Okay, hey, you came to church for one month and now I'm going 1348 01:54:05,000 --> 01:54:09,479 to commune you, it's like that's a bunk. I mean, I just 1349 01:54:09,479 --> 01:54:12,039 like, as a priest, I'm like, how can you even fetch somebody 1350 01:54:12,039 --> 01:54:15,800 in a month or three months or a week? I mean Candas Owens, 1351 01:54:15,039 --> 01:54:17,560 you know, the irony Like Candas Owens is just like, oh, I 1352 01:54:17,600 --> 01:54:21,640 wanted to become Catholic, and so now I'm Catholic. It's like, where's 1353 01:54:21,680 --> 01:54:28,039 your catechumanship, Like where's your instructions? Where's your renunciations? Like how do 1354 01:54:28,119 --> 01:54:31,399 you know in the Early Church for three years? It took three years to 1355 01:54:31,439 --> 01:54:35,119 become a Christian in the Early Church, and now we've reduced it in the 1356 01:54:35,159 --> 01:54:40,239 modern Orthodox Church till like a year, which I'm still not even convinced is 1357 01:54:40,359 --> 01:54:45,239 enough. And now you've got modern Catholicism where it's like a matter of weeks 1358 01:54:45,279 --> 01:54:48,560 or months or days whatever else, Like how can a person be transformed? 1359 01:54:48,840 --> 01:54:53,319 And maybe that's part of the reason why so many people who are Roman Catholic 1360 01:54:53,399 --> 01:54:57,800 don't actually follow or even believe in the dogmas. So I don't know, 1361 01:54:57,880 --> 01:55:01,439 sorry forgive my rant. Uh, yeah, I appreciate it. And Tyler 1362 01:55:01,520 --> 01:55:03,760 or not Trey, We're gonna have to move on because we've got a lot 1363 01:55:03,760 --> 01:55:06,399 of people. But a great question, Tyler, thank you appreciate that. 1364 01:55:08,680 --> 01:55:12,239 Let's say we got another Tyler. So Tyler Manino, what's up Tyler? 1365 01:55:12,920 --> 01:55:15,279 And by the way, before Tyler, before you go, we had a 1366 01:55:15,279 --> 01:55:18,880 super chat here asking a question. Noah emphasays for three dollars. Jay I 1367 01:55:18,920 --> 01:55:23,600 asked this earlier. It might have been missed. Bishop Alexander Galitzen is my 1368 01:55:23,640 --> 01:55:27,319 bishop. I met him recently before my baptism. While he does think that 1369 01:55:27,399 --> 01:55:30,159 Origin led in an exemplary life, he told me that he defers to the 1370 01:55:30,199 --> 01:55:33,920 Fifth actumn Ocal Council and does not believe in universal salvation. Now, the 1371 01:55:34,199 --> 01:55:39,760 issue was not whether he believed in the universal Salvation, but whether Bishop Glitzen 1372 01:55:40,199 --> 01:55:44,000 said that Origin is a saint, and in the Orthodox Church, a saint 1373 01:55:44,039 --> 01:55:48,079 is a person who's experienced uncreated light and has lived a holy life. Origin 1374 01:55:48,279 --> 01:55:53,000 is not a person that we believe experienced that, nor did he lead a 1375 01:55:53,039 --> 01:55:56,880 holy life. He was excommunicated from the church, and so his own state 1376 01:55:58,159 --> 01:56:05,399 lunch was from Origin of a Sandria. They're great, very great patristic writer. 1377 01:56:05,560 --> 01:56:09,760 He was not appreciated. Three hundred years later. They condemned him as 1378 01:56:09,760 --> 01:56:12,960 a heretic after he had died in the peace of the church three hundred years 1379 01:56:13,640 --> 01:56:20,560 which was wrong. But he was still a saint. So there you go. 1380 01:56:20,720 --> 01:56:25,439 So the question is not does he teach universalism? The question is does 1381 01:56:25,479 --> 01:56:30,119 he believe that the councils and the church fathers were wrong in condemning Origin. 1382 01:56:30,159 --> 01:56:32,439 He clearly says that that was wrong, and he believes that he is a 1383 01:56:32,479 --> 01:56:38,000 saint. So it's not about universalism. And Origin is not a saint and 1384 01:56:38,039 --> 01:56:43,560 he did not live rightly. Go ahead, Tyler. Yeah, So I 1385 01:56:43,800 --> 01:56:45,800 just you know, I want to say from the offset that I think, 1386 01:56:45,880 --> 01:56:50,880 unfortunately a lot of Catholics are poorly catechized, and you know, a lot 1387 01:56:50,920 --> 01:56:56,119 of them don't a lot of them just don't know a lot about the history 1388 01:56:56,119 --> 01:57:00,359 of the Church and don't understand a lot of aspects about it. But I'll 1389 01:57:00,399 --> 01:57:03,239 try a little bit of a Socratic method here. I think it's we can 1390 01:57:03,279 --> 01:57:08,960 all agree that there is no such thing as a perfect church, right because 1391 01:57:09,039 --> 01:57:12,800 humans are not in general, humans are not infallible. Well, well, 1392 01:57:12,800 --> 01:57:15,920 hold on, so when we say perfect, we don't mean morally. But 1393 01:57:16,439 --> 01:57:21,960 both Orthodox and Catholics profess to believe that the churches that they adhere to do 1394 01:57:23,000 --> 01:57:28,279 not officially teach error, so they're not theologically in error. But my point 1395 01:57:28,359 --> 01:57:30,520 is is that you know, we're all humans, so we all make mistakes, 1396 01:57:30,600 --> 01:57:35,199 and clearly throughout every single religion, both Catholic and Orthodox, there have 1397 01:57:35,279 --> 01:57:42,520 been heretics, right, sure, Yeah, So therefore I think it's possible 1398 01:57:42,600 --> 01:57:47,720 that you know, a church can be let's say, ninety nine percent correct 1399 01:57:48,199 --> 01:57:51,600 on certain things, but then because of human error, there are some times 1400 01:57:51,640 --> 01:57:56,439 when it screws up and where there have been corrupt probes, and a lot 1401 01:57:56,479 --> 01:58:00,079 of Catholics, myself included, believe that this current pope is and I don't 1402 01:58:00,079 --> 01:58:04,600 think that even though you know, the church teaches people and fallibility, I 1403 01:58:05,079 --> 01:58:11,359 don't think that's correct and I don't think that's a necessary thing to believe for 1404 01:58:11,479 --> 01:58:14,760 salvation. Okay, Well, Vatican One, which trumps you, says that 1405 01:58:14,840 --> 01:58:16,640 it is necessary for salvation. It says that the Roman seed does not teach 1406 01:58:16,720 --> 01:58:19,720 error, cannot teach air, and never will. So you have to submit 1407 01:58:19,760 --> 01:58:23,600 to that. You don't get the right in the liberty as a Roman Catholic 1408 01:58:23,600 --> 01:58:28,199 to pick and choose dogmas and ecumenical councils. No, of course, what 1409 01:58:28,319 --> 01:58:32,319 is it possible that dogma's and ecumenical councils were made in error? If so, 1410 01:58:32,479 --> 01:58:36,279 then the Romancolic Church is not true. Look like I said, it's 1411 01:58:38,199 --> 01:58:41,720 ninety nine percent accurate. No, because the claim, the claim about the 1412 01:58:41,800 --> 01:58:45,600 church is that it never airs, not that it's right nine percent of the 1413 01:58:45,600 --> 01:58:49,560 time, but that it provides the individual Roman Catholic the certitude to trust the 1414 01:58:49,680 --> 01:58:53,720 Church that it will never air. If there's a one percent chance that it 1415 01:58:53,800 --> 01:58:56,760 might be airing, it might be airing in this statement or the next statement 1416 01:58:56,880 --> 01:59:00,680 or the next statement. So you see why it's a totalizing system and a 1417 01:59:00,760 --> 01:59:04,640 totalizing claim. Yeah, but my point is that claim itself could be the 1418 01:59:04,680 --> 01:59:10,920 exact error. Well, then Romaicasa is not true. That's all we need. 1419 01:59:10,960 --> 01:59:14,920 It only takes one to invalidate the system. So do you do you 1420 01:59:14,960 --> 01:59:18,800 think that orthodoxy is completely perfect and that does not teach any errors? Whatsoever. 1421 01:59:19,039 --> 01:59:26,520 Yes, Okay, see, I think that it's close to impossible for 1422 01:59:26,680 --> 01:59:30,319 us to know for sure, which is exactly correct. I think it's possible 1423 01:59:30,319 --> 01:59:36,520 to get like, well, do you know that with certitude? No? 1424 01:59:36,520 --> 01:59:40,000 No, of course, there's no way for us to know for a fact. 1425 01:59:40,680 --> 01:59:43,319 No, I'm asking do you know? I'm asking do you know that 1426 01:59:43,439 --> 01:59:46,920 statement with certitude? Because that's your starting point presupposition, So for that to 1427 01:59:47,000 --> 01:59:50,279 work, you would have to have certitude about that starting point. I'm asking 1428 01:59:50,359 --> 02:00:00,000 you if that presupposition is correct with certitude? Could you repeat that we all 1429 02:00:00,119 --> 02:00:02,560 only have ninety nine percent certitude? Let's say that was your starting point. 1430 02:00:02,680 --> 02:00:09,600 I'm asking if that proposition is certain for you. I'm not saying that's sortain, 1431 02:00:09,640 --> 02:00:13,319 but I'm s well, then that's self reputing. How is that self 1432 02:00:13,359 --> 02:00:15,720 refuting them? Because you've got to have something to start with that's certain, 1433 02:00:17,680 --> 02:00:23,640 right, So I'm saying that I think it's possible for us to be You 1434 02:00:23,720 --> 02:00:28,279 missed all You just missed the whole point. So you have a starting point 1435 02:00:28,319 --> 02:00:32,680 that you believe is certain. It is your belief that nobody's certain and everything 1436 02:00:32,840 --> 02:00:36,600 is ninety nine percent certain. For this to work, you've got to be 1437 02:00:36,640 --> 02:00:41,239 certain about that starting point. And do you not see how that's inconsistent? 1438 02:00:43,840 --> 02:00:45,439 Yeah, I think that what you're getting at. But at this point, 1439 02:00:45,520 --> 02:00:49,760 I mean, that's just that's just arguing logic, which I understand what you're 1440 02:00:49,760 --> 02:00:55,079 trying to do here, but I mean, the thing is weird because so 1441 02:00:55,319 --> 02:00:58,439 logic doesn't matter anymore. So if it's no, logic does matter. But 1442 02:00:58,520 --> 02:01:03,399 we so Catholics everything, So don't change the subject. We're on the key 1443 02:01:03,439 --> 02:01:08,039 point of our starting points. Because I'm not a Roman Catholic, I believe 1444 02:01:08,079 --> 02:01:12,239 that your starting point is going to determine everything. You have a relativistic starting 1445 02:01:12,279 --> 02:01:15,479 point. So how do you know that that's true or that that your starting 1446 02:01:15,520 --> 02:01:19,439 point is right? Well, because I believe that the Catholic Church is the 1447 02:01:19,479 --> 02:01:24,720 closest to the original. But how do you know that though, because your 1448 02:01:24,720 --> 02:01:30,159 starting point is it self fallible? Right No, through I think through through 1449 02:01:30,000 --> 02:01:35,319 people's own research, and through disarment spiritual I think that'll hold on. So 1450 02:01:35,399 --> 02:01:39,800 our people are wrong sometimes right, So ultimately it's not the pope or the 1451 02:01:39,880 --> 02:01:42,960 Roman Catholicy Church, it's you. It's the final authority in this system. 1452 02:01:43,119 --> 02:01:45,640 Right. No, I don't agree with that I think it has to be 1453 02:01:45,960 --> 02:01:49,960 in communion with scripture. No, no, no, but but but you 1454 02:01:50,239 --> 02:01:55,479 this is your interpretation of this, that's my point. And you're saying that, 1455 02:01:55,520 --> 02:01:58,920 well, uh, maybe Vatican one is wrong and I don't like this. 1456 02:01:58,960 --> 02:02:01,479 I'm gonna take this. So it's you constructing the Roman Catholicism that you 1457 02:02:01,520 --> 02:02:05,479 want, that's your system. No, I'm in search of the truth. 1458 02:02:05,560 --> 02:02:10,439 I'm trying to find the truth. Yeah. But you're saying, is that 1459 02:02:10,520 --> 02:02:14,119 in the search for the truth, it is possible for things that we've formally 1460 02:02:14,119 --> 02:02:16,039 thought were true to be false, or things that we formally thought to be 1461 02:02:16,079 --> 02:02:19,119 false we're true. Okay. So that's why I went to your starting point, 1462 02:02:19,399 --> 02:02:24,399 which was ultimately relativistic, your first principle that you're using. I'm not 1463 02:02:24,439 --> 02:02:28,920 assuming anything. I'm saying everyone you are, though. Everyone assumes things. 1464 02:02:29,000 --> 02:02:34,880 Everybody has presubsitions unavoidable. Okay, that's fair. How do you know you 1465 02:02:34,960 --> 02:02:41,319 have the right starting point? Is the question? Well, I guess technically 1466 02:02:41,319 --> 02:02:43,960 does does anyone know that? Really? Okay, so you're a relativist, 1467 02:02:44,000 --> 02:02:45,560 that's my point. No, I'm not a relative. How are you not? 1468 02:02:46,479 --> 02:02:53,880 How are you not? That's what you're arguing basically what No, I'm 1469 02:02:53,920 --> 02:02:57,199 not what are you talking about? Why would I be a relatives? I'm 1470 02:02:57,239 --> 02:03:00,800 just asking you your position. Everyone has that right. My position is born 1471 02:03:00,800 --> 02:03:04,000 and raised Roman Catholic. No, No, okay, why the position's true? 1472 02:03:04,000 --> 02:03:06,680 I know what your position is. I'm asking why the position is true, 1473 02:03:06,720 --> 02:03:13,000 and it sounds relativistic. Your response is no, because I found through 1474 02:03:13,039 --> 02:03:15,720 my own search, through my own struggles with my own faith, and through 1475 02:03:16,119 --> 02:03:20,720 trying to do as much research as possible to discover the truth, and through 1476 02:03:20,800 --> 02:03:25,920 spiritual discernment through prayer. How do you know you're discerning right? Maybe you're 1477 02:03:25,920 --> 02:03:34,439 discerning wrong. Well I'm pretty I'm pretty sure I was discerning correctly. But 1478 02:03:34,520 --> 02:03:38,880 this could this? I mean this could this is a circular argument. I 1479 02:03:38,880 --> 02:03:41,319 mean that could go that's right. Now. My point is to show that 1480 02:03:41,359 --> 02:03:45,279 and illustrate that it is circum that's correct. I agree that was my point. 1481 02:03:45,399 --> 02:03:51,920 But your point could then your point could be that at like everything see 1482 02:03:51,960 --> 02:03:57,399 that your point could be then nothing matters. And essentially what you're saying, 1483 02:03:57,479 --> 02:04:00,199 no, I'm just saying that the Roman Catholic position and it's astemology leads to 1484 02:04:00,239 --> 02:04:05,199 these dead ends because you're trying to make a system that doesn't make sense work, 1485 02:04:05,680 --> 02:04:09,720 and that's why you're led to these conclusions, is my point. No, 1486 02:04:09,880 --> 02:04:15,279 I don't think that the Catholic Church solely based on the table infallibility. 1487 02:04:15,359 --> 02:04:21,359 I don't think that specific doctrine is the entire basis for the church. I 1488 02:04:21,399 --> 02:04:27,119 don't. But it doesn't matter what you think, because Vatican One trumps you, 1489 02:04:27,560 --> 02:04:30,920 and you don't get to interpret these documents the way you want to. 1490 02:04:30,960 --> 02:04:35,640 You have to interpret them the way Rome interprets them. But that's not the 1491 02:04:35,640 --> 02:04:40,239 core of the faith, though it is according to Rome. According to Rome, 1492 02:04:40,279 --> 02:04:43,000 it is. So you don't get to say that. Do you not 1493 02:04:43,119 --> 02:04:45,359 understand that it's not a system. You're not a Protestant. You don't get 1494 02:04:45,399 --> 02:04:49,239 to construct the Roman Catholic system the way you want to. No, and 1495 02:04:49,920 --> 02:04:55,359 I'm not claiming to do so, but you are doing. You are doing 1496 02:04:55,399 --> 02:04:59,960 that before everyone. That is exactly what you're doing. Because you just say, 1497 02:05:00,199 --> 02:05:02,119 I don't care what Vatican one says. I can choose to not believe 1498 02:05:02,119 --> 02:05:05,000 that one. I didn't say that I didn't care what Vatican one says. 1499 02:05:05,319 --> 02:05:09,840 You said it could be wrong or whatever you said. It is possible for 1500 02:05:09,960 --> 02:05:14,600 human beings to make mistakes. Then you don't believe in the guidance of the 1501 02:05:14,640 --> 02:05:17,159 Patrian Sea, with the Keroism of Peter and all that that Vatican One teaches. 1502 02:05:17,199 --> 02:05:23,479 So you don't believe the Romancallic Church is teaching. But you yourself just 1503 02:05:23,520 --> 02:05:28,039 said that that every religion has had heretics, that even Orthodox he had. 1504 02:05:28,159 --> 02:05:30,840 So having a heretic is not the same thing. Having a heretic in the 1505 02:05:30,880 --> 02:05:35,199 religion is not the same thing as a fundamental contradiction in the theology and the 1506 02:05:35,199 --> 02:05:42,880 dogma of the religion. Two different things. Okay, I can see your 1507 02:05:42,880 --> 02:05:48,680 point with that. Okay, fair enough. I appreciate that. All right, 1508 02:05:48,680 --> 02:05:53,560 we're gonna move on. Not trying to be rude, but good exchange. 1509 02:05:53,600 --> 02:05:57,439 I appreciate that we didn't get you know, we handled it in a 1510 02:05:57,439 --> 02:06:14,079 civil way. Ignacio Gonna, I'm mute. Yeah. So I was watching 1511 02:06:15,079 --> 02:06:19,319 Catholic Apologetic channel the other day and I asked a question, you know, 1512 02:06:19,399 --> 02:06:27,000 that I was choosing either Eastern uh to being Eastern Catholic or Orthodox, and 1513 02:06:27,079 --> 02:06:34,800 they mentioned that I should choose Catholicism because Orthodoxy was the one that that actually 1514 02:06:35,640 --> 02:06:44,640 changed their teachings in that supposedly they accepted a meical conception, and no, 1515 02:06:45,439 --> 02:06:49,039 the amcular conception is a very late Roman Catholic dogma. How could the Orthodox 1516 02:06:49,079 --> 02:06:55,920 accept that when the dogmatization of that is far after the schism. That makes 1517 02:06:55,960 --> 02:06:59,800 no sense. So, uh, the Orthodox Church says that she's the spotless 1518 02:06:59,880 --> 02:07:05,520 Verse, but the word spotless virgin doesn't translate into immaculate conception. And also 1519 02:07:05,600 --> 02:07:14,199 that Orthodoxy has accepted Philiokley and then for some reason they okay, yeah, 1520 02:07:14,239 --> 02:07:17,520 I'll just make sure. Yeah, I mean, the Palomite Synods are all 1521 02:07:17,560 --> 02:07:25,079 premised on rejecting that. So you could read the Palomite Synods in the Norman 1522 02:07:25,159 --> 02:07:35,840 Russell book, or you could read Saint Gregory Palamas's book Epidict the Treatise on 1523 02:07:35,880 --> 02:07:39,920 the Holy Spirit, which is published in English now, So those things will 1524 02:07:39,920 --> 02:07:45,800 show you that, no, we don't accept the Philioqui probably talking about Florence. 1525 02:07:45,439 --> 02:07:47,800 So Roman Catholic should to argue that, oh, well, you had 1526 02:07:48,000 --> 02:07:51,960 several bishops that accepted Florence, so what not all of them did? We 1527 02:07:53,039 --> 02:07:57,439 don't have this like, oh, if you get three Orthodox bishops, then 1528 02:07:58,079 --> 02:08:01,560 you know your whole thing folds. No, it's a mark of Ephesus did 1529 02:08:01,560 --> 02:08:07,199 not accept it, and when they took the decree of union back, the 1530 02:08:07,239 --> 02:08:11,479 rest of the church booed them and three tomatoes at them and rejected it. 1531 02:08:11,560 --> 02:08:13,760 So, no, we did not accept Florence. And then you could read 1532 02:08:13,760 --> 02:08:31,239 the Austro mob book on the Council Florence Demetrio's Jim, Hello, Yeah, 1533 02:08:31,279 --> 02:08:37,880 what's up? My question is what would be your thoughts Would you consider it 1534 02:08:37,920 --> 02:08:43,960 to be heretical or would Orthodoxy consider it to be heretical to take a pretorist 1535 02:08:45,239 --> 02:08:50,960 slash postmillennial position, you know, concerning the Book of Revelations. That is 1536 02:08:50,960 --> 02:08:54,720 to say, we'd be saying, like, you know, these predictions happened 1537 02:08:54,760 --> 02:08:58,640 in our path. We're living in the Kingdom, you know. No, 1538 02:08:58,720 --> 02:09:05,920 I think I think partial preterism is what's taught by Athenatious, by Saint Cyril. 1539 02:09:05,960 --> 02:09:09,560 It's taught by John crystalstom clear as Day and his homilyesa on Luke twenty 1540 02:09:09,560 --> 02:09:13,560 one in Matthew twenty four. Yeah, so no, I don't. But 1541 02:09:15,319 --> 02:09:20,640 there might be elements of post millennialism that some orthodox might disagree with. I 1542 02:09:20,680 --> 02:09:28,439 don't think that it's I don't see anything necessarily on orthodox in post mill that's 1543 02:09:28,479 --> 02:09:35,039 a pretty it's a pretty uh you know, happy optimistic position as far as 1544 02:09:35,119 --> 02:09:41,039 you know, combining you know, futurists or all those four categories versus I 1545 02:09:41,079 --> 02:09:43,920 used to be right, so I come out of the reconstruction as bonds and 1546 02:09:43,000 --> 02:09:46,640 rush uni sphere. I used to be into that, so I'm familiar. 1547 02:09:46,720 --> 02:09:50,239 Yeah, yeah, So so I wouldn't be considered if I were to say, 1548 02:09:50,279 --> 02:09:54,399 hey, we're living in the millennium now, should has happened? Should 1549 02:09:54,399 --> 02:09:56,880 have still happened? In CHRISTI is coming back, but you know, we're 1550 02:09:58,039 --> 02:10:03,319 just you know, Jesus is putting everybody you know at his footstool sort of 1551 02:10:03,319 --> 02:10:07,640 speaking. Well. Another possibility is, yeah, I mean, we'd believe 1552 02:10:07,720 --> 02:10:13,520 those things for sure. Another possibility is that Roumans eleven that when the Jews 1553 02:10:13,560 --> 02:10:16,920 convert whenever that is, and Paul says that they will convert the rest of 1554 02:10:16,960 --> 02:10:20,199 the world. It seems to be the terminology of Romans eleven. That might 1555 02:10:20,479 --> 02:10:26,880 be something that happens quick. So you could potentially have whenever that is a 1556 02:10:26,720 --> 02:10:33,199 something that's fast that fulfills a lot of those quote post millennial prophecies such that 1557 02:10:33,319 --> 02:10:39,520 it doesn't then require like you know, ten thousand years for the earth, 1558 02:10:39,680 --> 02:10:41,720 but then again you might have another ten thousand years. So I don't think 1559 02:10:41,720 --> 02:10:46,079 there's any I think that we would say these are the Laugumina. Okay. 1560 02:10:46,359 --> 02:10:54,159 And then another quick question is concerning the Council of for Florence. Now again 1561 02:10:54,279 --> 02:10:56,560 just to get your thoughts on this. You know, there was as many 1562 02:10:56,600 --> 02:11:01,960 bishops from the Eastern Church as there bears were at any other councils for that 1563 02:11:03,000 --> 02:11:09,520 matter. At the end of that council, obviously they became union again on 1564 02:11:09,640 --> 02:11:13,239 paper, uh right, but not all of them did. Saint Mark of 1565 02:11:13,319 --> 02:11:18,079 Evesins is the saint precisely because he didn't. And you can read the Oustromov 1566 02:11:18,119 --> 02:11:22,079 book on the history of Florence. Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely definitely, 1567 02:11:22,119 --> 02:11:24,760 but uh yeah, we're not, but we're not. We're not papists, 1568 02:11:24,800 --> 02:11:28,840 right, So, like there's no like magical number of like oh, 1569 02:11:28,960 --> 02:11:33,720 if you get you know, five bishops to who are heretics, then we've 1570 02:11:33,720 --> 02:11:35,960 won. That's the whole church, right. So Roman Catholics are always thinking 1571 02:11:35,960 --> 02:11:41,000 in terms of like these like gotcha numbers, Like well, if I can 1572 02:11:41,039 --> 02:11:45,880 get you know, three or four patriarchs, if I can get you know 1573 02:11:46,560 --> 02:11:50,520 this many number of bishops, Like, we don't do the numbers game, 1574 02:11:50,560 --> 02:11:54,119 Like there's no numbers game that like proves or disproves the totality of the church. 1575 02:11:54,239 --> 02:11:58,600 That's all Roman Catholic attitude. No, yeah, I wasn't concerned with 1576 02:11:58,640 --> 02:12:01,880 that. Mainly, I was concerned with you know, it was ecumenical council. 1577 02:12:01,239 --> 02:12:07,439 There was agreement, were signed, not an ecumenical council. So it's 1578 02:12:07,479 --> 02:12:11,920 not gonna we don't, well, the Orthodox Church as a consider it an 1579 02:12:11,960 --> 02:12:15,920 ecumenical council. But I'm saying it's only an ecumenical council if you're a papist, 1580 02:12:15,960 --> 02:12:22,640 correct, But in the general uh layout of previous it's not acumenical because 1581 02:12:22,680 --> 02:12:28,840 oikumenae means accepted by the empire, so they're in both Roman Catholic and Orthodox 1582 02:12:28,880 --> 02:12:33,039 theology. There's the idea of acceptance that eventually occurs. So for us, 1583 02:12:33,079 --> 02:12:39,279 there's no like immediate magical thing that makes something quote an ecumenical council. That's 1584 02:12:39,319 --> 02:12:43,000 why after the ocumenae goes away, we have what's called pan Orthodox synods that 1585 02:12:43,039 --> 02:12:48,920 are accepted throughout the entire Orthodox world, like the Palms. So in order 1586 02:12:48,920 --> 02:12:52,920 for a council to be legitimate, it requires more than just the acceptance of 1587 02:12:52,960 --> 02:12:56,560 the bishops. And I mean yeah, because there have been Robert Synods. 1588 02:12:56,560 --> 02:13:03,119 Correct. Okay, so the only thing I would I would, uh, 1589 02:13:03,720 --> 02:13:09,039 we're we're well, I guess that doesn't matter. I was gonna say, 1590 02:13:09,039 --> 02:13:16,439 we're excommunications given post the council of Yes, absolutely, yeah, all those 1591 02:13:16,439 --> 02:13:22,720 people were considered traders. So they came back and they're like, yeah, 1592 02:13:22,760 --> 02:13:26,239 we signed on paper. But then there it's just what Yeah they were, 1593 02:13:26,520 --> 02:13:31,000 Yeah, they were called traders and had tomatoes thrown at them. But isn't 1594 02:13:31,039 --> 02:13:35,319 it wouldn't it be heretical to say we're changing the the outcome of this ecumenical 1595 02:13:35,399 --> 02:13:39,840 council. It's only an acumenical council on papal prerogative. So you just keep 1596 02:13:39,880 --> 02:13:45,399 assuming the papal perspective and saying, well, it's an ecumenical council. But 1597 02:13:45,479 --> 02:13:50,039 why what what do you think makes something an ecumenical council? Well, i'd 1598 02:13:50,079 --> 02:13:52,520 be Double's advocate here obviously, have a full disclosure. I am orthodox, 1599 02:13:52,560 --> 02:13:54,800 so you can tell by my Greek name probably, but like you know, 1600 02:13:54,880 --> 02:13:58,840 the the I'm being Devil's advocates saying like, you know, the patriarchs signed 1601 02:13:58,880 --> 02:14:01,840 it, multiple bishops sign it. At the end of the council, everyone 1602 02:14:01,880 --> 02:14:05,640 signed it. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit. It's law, we 1603 02:14:05,760 --> 02:14:07,600 go bad. Not all of the pat not all the patriarch has signed it. 1604 02:14:07,640 --> 02:14:11,600 That's not true, well not all, but as much as I mean, 1605 02:14:11,640 --> 02:14:16,359 there's people that rejected in ecumenical councilors that were legitimate to the Eastern orthodoxray 1606 02:14:16,479 --> 02:14:20,159 Okay. So my point is that there's nothing about a council itself that magically 1607 02:14:20,199 --> 02:14:24,720 makes it binding authoritative, because there have been many false councils, as even 1608 02:14:24,800 --> 02:14:30,119 Roman Catholics admit. So if we're gonna go with the papal approach, we've 1609 02:14:30,119 --> 02:14:33,840 got a whole host of other problems, namely, why isn't Laterans six forty 1610 02:14:33,920 --> 02:14:37,520 nine and acumenical council It should be, according to Roman Catholics, And yet 1611 02:14:37,560 --> 02:14:41,560 no Roman Catholic council that has an acamical council. Oh yeah, I definitely 1612 02:14:41,560 --> 02:14:45,199 see that privacy, There are no doubt, but I'm wondering if there's if 1613 02:14:45,239 --> 02:14:50,840 there's you know, so when Constantinople fell, officially we were union correctly, 1614 02:14:50,159 --> 02:14:54,880 right, okay, and people you know, and uh. And Roman Catholics 1615 02:14:54,880 --> 02:14:58,840 don't mention that, by the way, when they make their curse arguments. 1616 02:14:58,359 --> 02:15:01,359 Yeah, well other curses that that they they say that, yeah, we've 1617 02:15:01,399 --> 02:15:05,359 said it on paper, but we brought it back and we're heretical because we 1618 02:15:05,479 --> 02:15:09,039 let the late late people say we don't want this, and they refers the 1619 02:15:09,079 --> 02:15:13,680 decisions of an Yeah, but the Orthodox Church doesn't. It's not this clerical 1620 02:15:13,680 --> 02:15:18,359 worship church where the laity doesn't have a role. The laity has a role. 1621 02:15:18,439 --> 02:15:24,039 For example, the Iconic class current controversy would have prevailed because the majority 1622 02:15:24,079 --> 02:15:28,720 of the important bishoprics and sees were Iconoclasts. And the reason they Iconic class 1623 02:15:28,720 --> 02:15:35,319 lost was because monastics and laity, Yeah, you know, the ones that 1624 02:15:35,520 --> 02:15:39,279 bring up the you know, the the union part of constant. In other 1625 02:15:39,279 --> 02:15:41,920 words, we were cursed because we were you know, uh, you know, 1626 02:15:43,199 --> 02:15:46,880 refused that econ medical consols, so to speak, according to Catholics. 1627 02:15:46,880 --> 02:15:52,600 And it's interesting that the trad Catholics are like the most that like don't accept 1628 02:15:52,640 --> 02:15:54,720 Vatican two are like we're like wait a second, bro, Like you're like 1629 02:15:54,760 --> 02:15:58,960 more like, oh well yeah, but see when when you bring up curses 1630 02:15:58,960 --> 02:16:01,840 about that kind of stuff, then it becomes proof that they're the true Church 1631 02:16:01,920 --> 02:16:05,680 because they're persecuted. So that's called moving the goalpost exactly, Joe Enders, 1632 02:16:05,720 --> 02:16:20,119 what's up, man? Yeah, I'm mute. Yeah, what's up? 1633 02:16:20,199 --> 02:16:24,760 Jay? So I'm not going to argue with you because I honestly don't know 1634 02:16:24,800 --> 02:16:26,520 the material well enough. But I want to start studying the material so at 1635 02:16:26,600 --> 02:16:30,239 least I can get your perspective before I go and study the material. I 1636 02:16:30,279 --> 02:16:33,639 hope that's okay with you. Okay, Yeah, So I just you've brought 1637 02:16:33,680 --> 02:16:37,360 up something specifically, and you bring this up a lot in your videos. 1638 02:16:37,360 --> 02:16:39,399 You talk a lot about Vatican One. Now, what specifically is the hypocrisy 1639 02:16:39,440 --> 02:16:43,360 that you were trying to point out in Vatican One that Catholics can't see the 1640 02:16:43,399 --> 02:16:48,000 answer. Well, there's multiple ways that that argument could be formulated, depending 1641 02:16:48,079 --> 02:16:52,239 upon whether we're talking about a novus orto person that accepts Vatican two or a 1642 02:16:52,280 --> 02:16:56,559 track cat that doesn't like Vatican two. Novasorto obviously, just to do a 1643 02:16:56,559 --> 02:17:05,200 regular Catholic argument, well, again, it depends on like I've talked about 1644 02:17:05,239 --> 02:17:09,840 Vatican one a lot, so you know, it could be I could be 1645 02:17:09,959 --> 02:17:15,760 arguing that Vatican one contradicts the Canons of the First Seven Councils in the way 1646 02:17:15,799 --> 02:17:18,920 that it approaches things. I could be arguing that a lot of Roman Catholics, 1647 02:17:18,920 --> 02:17:24,120 for example, say I only have to believe the ex cathedral statements, 1648 02:17:24,159 --> 02:17:26,520 which is not true. You have to believe much more than that, such 1649 02:17:26,559 --> 02:17:31,600 as the Pope's universal ordinary teaching, as well as submitting to his ordinary teaching, 1650 02:17:31,639 --> 02:17:35,920 which is even fallible. You still have to submit with docility. So 1651 02:17:35,639 --> 02:17:39,319 I make a lot of arguments in that regard. So I could be talking 1652 02:17:39,319 --> 02:17:43,079 about any of these things. Well, yeah, no, So specifically what 1653 02:17:43,120 --> 02:17:46,760 I was I think I believe it was regarding the regarding the catheter statements, 1654 02:17:46,760 --> 02:17:50,040 which, honestly, like as as you know a quote unquote Popal planner, 1655 02:17:50,079 --> 02:17:54,120 I probably agree with your reading of Vatican one. So that's what I was 1656 02:17:54,120 --> 02:17:58,360 asking. Okay, so so what so at that point I was probably arguing, 1657 02:18:01,760 --> 02:18:09,920 where is the list of ex cathedral Where is the list of ex cathedra 1658 02:18:09,959 --> 02:18:18,040 statements? Oh, I don't know, there's not one. That's your point 1659 02:18:18,079 --> 02:18:22,159 is that there isn't a list of ex cathedral statements. So because there isn't 1660 02:18:22,159 --> 02:18:26,680 a list of ex cathedra statements, well, that's one point. Why why 1661 02:18:26,680 --> 02:18:30,000 wouldn't I mean, I thought that the papacy is there to help us understand 1662 02:18:30,040 --> 02:18:33,319 and know certitude and all this. Why wouldn't they give us some list of 1663 02:18:33,360 --> 02:18:37,879 these things? If that's your sort of like Trump argument, kills shot against 1664 02:18:37,920 --> 02:18:43,360 pretty much everybody else Protestants, right, I mean, like I said, 1665 02:18:43,399 --> 02:18:46,559 I don't know. I'm looking into it. I'm going to look into the 1666 02:18:46,639 --> 02:18:50,920 arguments right now. I don't really think that that's the strongest argument that you 1667 02:18:50,120 --> 02:18:54,200 well, it's one argument, but I think it's really strong for Protestant or 1668 02:18:54,280 --> 02:19:01,120 for excuse me, for Romancolics that are struggling, because it's one thing to 1669 02:19:01,200 --> 02:19:03,799 say, Okay, I believe that the pope you know, has this power 1670 02:19:03,840 --> 02:19:09,760 to define dogmas in an extraordinary way ex Cathedral et cetera. I follow and 1671 02:19:09,799 --> 02:19:13,079 have I'm bound to the ex Cathedral teachings. But then as an individual Catholic, 1672 02:19:13,399 --> 02:19:18,440 you're not in any any better position because you don't have any clear way 1673 02:19:18,479 --> 02:19:24,399 to adjudicate without going through this mountain of documents. You're not. My point 1674 02:19:24,440 --> 02:19:26,719 is that you're not in a much better position than a Protestant because instead of 1675 02:19:26,760 --> 02:19:31,360 the Protestant trying to wait his way through interpreting the scriptures, You've got more 1676 02:19:31,399 --> 02:19:37,079 work to do with mountains of papal documents and three broad criteria as to what 1677 02:19:37,239 --> 02:19:41,479 counts as binding an authoritative and you're not in any better positions. So how 1678 02:19:41,479 --> 02:19:46,799 do you know as an individual what dogmas you're supposed to follow when Roman Catholics 1679 02:19:46,840 --> 02:19:50,200 are just sort of parroting this idea. Well, I follow the ex Cathedral 1680 02:19:50,239 --> 02:19:52,559 teachings and you're not even given a list of that. You're given three broad 1681 02:19:52,600 --> 02:19:56,879 criteria. Now it's upon you to dig through mountains of papal documents to figure 1682 02:19:56,879 --> 02:20:00,440 out what that is. How are you in a better position than a promised 1683 02:20:00,440 --> 02:20:05,200 it? Oh that's what that's your point. Okay, I see what you're 1684 02:20:05,200 --> 02:20:07,159 getting at. I see what you're getting at. Okay, Yeah, I 1685 02:20:07,159 --> 02:20:09,879 mean when it comes to that, this is one of those things that if 1686 02:20:09,879 --> 02:20:16,399 I were to, you know, critique like the compendium of papal documents that 1687 02:20:16,440 --> 02:20:20,520 we have, the compendium of ecumenical councils all throughout church history. One of 1688 02:20:20,559 --> 02:20:22,719 the things that I think needs to be more clearly defined is the magisterium and 1689 02:20:22,760 --> 02:20:28,079 what the magisterium is and how the magisterium operates and how Catholic laity is supposed 1690 02:20:28,120 --> 02:20:31,840 to interact with the magisterium. And I don't think that we need to be 1691 02:20:31,920 --> 02:20:35,559 going through every single Taple document. I obviously believe that you know the politics 1692 02:20:35,559 --> 02:20:41,520 of Rome, the political establishment of the Catholic Oh wait a minute, though, 1693 02:20:43,360 --> 02:20:46,879 Wait a minute, I'm not talking about papal private opinions of politics. 1694 02:20:46,920 --> 02:20:48,799 I'm talking about talking about it. Either, that's not what I'm talking about. 1695 02:20:48,799 --> 02:20:54,719 Either, you're misunderstanding. Even the teachings themselves, even the things coming 1696 02:20:54,799 --> 02:20:58,399 out directly from the Church, they have a very very narrow effect on the 1697 02:20:58,440 --> 02:21:01,959 lives of every day Catholics. None of that is relevant to the point that 1698 02:21:03,040 --> 02:21:07,840 I'm making, which is that you're bound to follow not just ex Cathedral but 1699 02:21:07,920 --> 02:21:13,200 also the Pope's universal, ordinary magisterial teaching and his ordinary teaching. That means, 1700 02:21:13,239 --> 02:21:16,639 in this mountain of papal documents, all of those are binding on you. 1701 02:21:16,520 --> 02:21:22,280 That's the point. They're binding on you. And if you if you 1702 02:21:22,440 --> 02:21:26,120 know them, if you know what they're if you know what they're there binding 1703 02:21:26,159 --> 02:21:28,479 on you. Whether you know them or not, they're binding on you, 1704 02:21:28,520 --> 02:21:33,079 whether you know them or not to a certain capacity. But there's obviously like 1705 02:21:33,200 --> 02:21:35,319 reduced culpability when somebody does something, What does that have to do? What 1706 02:21:35,399 --> 02:21:39,200 does that have to do with? How are you in a better position than 1707 02:21:39,200 --> 02:21:43,159 a Protestant with this massive amount of documents to know what your actual church's teachings 1708 02:21:43,159 --> 02:21:46,799 are. Well, that's what I said. You need a clear definition of 1709 02:21:46,840 --> 02:21:50,879 the magisterium and the lil so two thousand years of the Roman Catholic Church hasn't 1710 02:21:50,879 --> 02:21:56,399 figured out how to define magisterium yet, as far as I can understand. 1711 02:21:56,440 --> 02:21:58,639 There's some uh, there's some pointing to it in Vatican One, which is 1712 02:21:58,719 --> 02:22:03,079 kind of what I was asking you about. And then uh, yeah, 1713 02:22:03,120 --> 02:22:07,000 And my point is that my point is that Vatican One gives you three criteria 1714 02:22:07,639 --> 02:22:11,639 of what you're bound to follow. That does you no good into actually adjudicating 1715 02:22:11,719 --> 02:22:16,159 what goes into what ben as an individual Roman Catholic reading through the mountains of 1716 02:22:16,200 --> 02:22:22,280 documents. I'm not talking about reading through the mountains of documents though, that's 1717 02:22:22,280 --> 02:22:26,360 not the point that I'm making. What I'm asking you about is like if 1718 02:22:26,600 --> 02:22:30,319 if you think, if I were to think as a Catholic, like I 1719 02:22:30,360 --> 02:22:33,799 said, as again, this is simple, if there is this you know, 1720 02:22:35,079 --> 02:22:37,920 uh, if there is this compendium of things that you need to follow 1721 02:22:37,920 --> 02:22:41,879 regarding ordinary magisterium, ex Cathedral statements, all these things that you know are 1722 02:22:41,959 --> 02:22:46,479 binding on you, that that that are all these things? Does Vatican One 1723 02:22:46,600 --> 02:22:50,360 explicitly state that? If it does, obviously it needs to be defined more 1724 02:22:50,399 --> 02:22:54,280 clearly in maybe a future Church council or anything along those lines. That how 1725 02:22:54,360 --> 02:22:58,920 much I can agree with you with That's what I'm asking about. Yeah, 1726 02:22:58,959 --> 02:23:03,639 it gives you three broad criteria, and it doesn't tell you what amongst the 1727 02:23:03,680 --> 02:23:07,520 massive amount of documents that you're bound to in those documents is in which Ben, 1728 02:23:07,879 --> 02:23:11,840 it's a very simple argument that I'm presenting to you. So the fact 1729 02:23:11,840 --> 02:23:15,120 that you're saying, I don't care about all those other documents, that's my 1730 02:23:15,280 --> 02:23:18,159 argument. My argument is that you have to care about all those other documents 1731 02:23:18,239 --> 02:23:22,479 because you're bound to those documents. And the three broad criteria do not give 1732 02:23:22,520 --> 02:23:30,479 you any better epistemic position than a Protestant reading the Bible. Okay, so 1733 02:23:31,680 --> 02:23:35,079 the papacy doesn't do what it's supposed to do. You're misunderstanding what I meant 1734 02:23:35,079 --> 02:23:39,000 by I don't care. I mean I don't care in regards to this very 1735 02:23:39,079 --> 02:23:43,360 narrow, specific thing, not that it doesn't matter on Yeah, well, 1736 02:23:43,360 --> 02:23:46,440 but you're not addressing the challenge that I'm presenting, which is that you're in 1737 02:23:46,479 --> 02:23:52,399 a position I'm not going to because I don't know the answers. I'm literally 1738 02:23:52,440 --> 02:23:54,719 trying to get information from you so I can look it up and understand it 1739 02:23:54,760 --> 02:23:58,360 better myself. Okay, Well, that in one's not long. It's it's 1740 02:23:58,360 --> 02:24:01,799 a it's a short council. You can read it printed out. It's about 1741 02:24:01,799 --> 02:24:03,840 fifteen pages if you print it out right. But I need to know what 1742 02:24:03,879 --> 02:24:07,360 your objections to it specifically are. That's my point, sure, and I 1743 02:24:07,360 --> 02:24:13,120 mean again, I've done it Infallibility is one of the things that you bring 1744 02:24:13,200 --> 02:24:16,120 up quite often, and I'm guessing it's regarding what you're saying about the cathedral 1745 02:24:16,200 --> 02:24:20,079 statements and the magisterial time. I think this is a very strong I think 1746 02:24:20,120 --> 02:24:24,319 this is a very strong argument given the fact that Roman Catholics are always saying 1747 02:24:24,399 --> 02:24:28,280 that we have the trump card, which is the office of the Pope, 1748 02:24:28,760 --> 02:24:33,559 which allows us to give certitude, to settle disputes, to know what the 1749 02:24:33,600 --> 02:24:37,959 dogmas are, to be certain of our faith. These are constant, constant 1750 02:24:37,239 --> 02:24:41,040 pop Catholic arguments that we are all the time. My point is that what 1751 02:24:41,159 --> 02:24:46,159 Vatican one tells you is three broad criteria and doesn't actually tell you where to 1752 02:24:46,200 --> 02:24:50,920 put into what to put into that into those bins. And so if Roman 1753 02:24:50,920 --> 02:24:54,000 Catholicism was actually going to do the work that it claims to do, we 1754 02:24:54,040 --> 02:24:58,280 should at least have a list of the ex cathedral dogmas. You don't have 1755 02:24:58,319 --> 02:25:01,680 that. So this is every dayiculous, bureaucratic, stupid system. That's my 1756 02:25:01,799 --> 02:25:09,719 argument. Okay, I mean, yeah, that's that's fine. I just 1757 02:25:09,760 --> 02:25:11,319 like I said, I don't think that that's a very that's a very strong 1758 02:25:11,399 --> 02:25:13,600 argument. And why is it not a strong Why is that not a strong 1759 02:25:13,639 --> 02:25:18,280 argument, Because because you're saying that that the system is entirely ineffective because there's 1760 02:25:18,319 --> 02:25:22,840 something that could be potentially added to it in another acumenical council in the future. 1761 02:25:22,879 --> 02:25:26,120 That actually, no, that's not the argument. The argument is that 1762 02:25:26,399 --> 02:25:31,000 it has not provided the very thing that it claims to have provided for two 1763 02:25:31,000 --> 02:25:35,239 thousand years. That's the argument, not whether there can be a future clarification. 1764 02:25:35,200 --> 02:25:39,440 So what you're specifically saying, I'm understanding you, Well, you can 1765 02:25:39,479 --> 02:25:43,840 aggravate it I'm asking for understanding because because you're being of twos, it's a 1766 02:25:43,959 --> 02:25:48,079 very clear, specific, obvious argument. No, I'm not. I'm not 1767 02:25:48,120 --> 02:25:50,040 being in too, so I'm actually being honest and asking you genuine questions. 1768 02:25:50,319 --> 02:25:52,959 If you want to assume that you're welcome to Okay, well, how many 1769 02:25:54,000 --> 02:25:58,280 more ways do I have to do? So? Look, the argument is 1770 02:25:58,319 --> 02:26:03,799 this that the real Catholic apologists all the time constantly argue that we have the 1771 02:26:03,840 --> 02:26:11,040 trump card as a Roman Catholic because we can give certitude, clarity, unity, 1772 02:26:11,600 --> 02:26:16,520 provide pastoral universal guidance through the office of the Pope as supreme teacher. 1773 02:26:16,799 --> 02:26:20,479 He's indeffectible, he's infallible, et cetera. That's the claim, that's the 1774 02:26:20,600 --> 02:26:24,920 argument, that's the car salesmanship that goes on. And what I'm saying is 1775 02:26:24,959 --> 02:26:28,719 that when we actually try to look at the doctrines and what I'm bound to 1776 02:26:28,799 --> 02:26:31,760 follow, when we raise a very basic question as to Okay, what are 1777 02:26:31,799 --> 02:26:37,079 the ex cathedral dogmas that I'm bound to, there's no list of the ex 1778 02:26:37,159 --> 02:26:41,840 cathedral dogmas every different Roman Catholic will get. That's a very strong argument. 1779 02:26:41,879 --> 02:26:45,760 If it in fact doesn't do this, it's a strong argument against the apologists 1780 02:26:45,760 --> 02:26:48,239 who are making an incomplete argument. That's all I'm here. They're echoing what 1781 02:26:48,280 --> 02:26:52,440 they're echoing what Vatican one says. That's the point. They're not wrong in 1782 02:26:52,239 --> 02:26:56,559 their argument, they're saying. That's what I'm asking you. So you're so 1783 02:26:56,559 --> 02:27:01,639 what you're saying about the Vatican One is that Vatican One makes a claim that 1784 02:27:01,680 --> 02:27:05,760 they can't back up. Have you read have you read Pastor Attornives? Have 1785 02:27:05,799 --> 02:27:09,559 you read Leo Staudi's Corgnito? No, I'm going to That's what I'm telling 1786 02:27:09,600 --> 02:27:11,440 you. I'm going into this discussion and I wanted to get your perspective. 1787 02:27:11,479 --> 02:27:15,159 That's why. So I'm not trying right. So when you read those doctrines, 1788 02:27:15,200 --> 02:27:18,719 you'll those doguments, you'll see that they're saying what I say, this 1789 02:27:18,920 --> 02:27:22,079 is the way you know the true faith. I'm asking for an example. 1790 02:27:22,200 --> 02:27:24,200 Is my point from the that you might know off the top of your head 1791 02:27:24,239 --> 02:27:28,760 from the documents that you're specific Yeah, it's it's called pastor Attornives. It 1792 02:27:28,799 --> 02:27:35,040 makes this very argument. Okay, yeah, I'll look at I'll look you 1793 02:27:35,079 --> 02:27:37,399 into it a little bit more. But it seems to me like you're refuting 1794 02:27:37,440 --> 02:27:43,399 Catholic apologists, and no Catholic apology. This is this is sophistry. It's 1795 02:27:43,440 --> 02:27:48,600 sophistry. No, it's sofist. It is sophistry. Off halfway. If 1796 02:27:48,639 --> 02:27:50,600 you cut me off halfway through my argument, you can make it. It's 1797 02:27:50,639 --> 02:27:54,559 an argument that it's sophistry. But if you'll only finish it, then you're 1798 02:27:54,559 --> 02:27:56,399 never going to get to the point at which I hopefully get direct and explicit, 1799 02:27:56,879 --> 02:28:03,440 because it's not a question of whether it's only a thing that the apologists 1800 02:28:03,440 --> 02:28:07,719 say. Okay, I was using them as an example. The apologists are 1801 02:28:07,760 --> 02:28:11,079 making their argument from what Vatican one very clearly teaches. It's called pastor attornis. 1802 02:28:11,360 --> 02:28:15,399 So rather than getting all sassy, you need to go read your basic 1803 02:28:15,479 --> 02:28:22,600 documents. This goes back to what I said. Okay, okay, you 1804 02:28:22,680 --> 02:28:24,840 got sassy in the debate. So then you came here claiming you weren't in 1805 02:28:24,879 --> 02:28:31,639 a debate because it was a bad argument. Because it was a bad argument. 1806 02:28:31,879 --> 02:28:35,959 It wasn't a conclusion. What are you regument It's not it's irrelevant. 1807 02:28:37,399 --> 02:28:41,079 It's not a question of what the apologists as authorities are saying. They're basing 1808 02:28:41,079 --> 02:28:46,680 it on Vatican One. I'm asking what part of Vatican One. It's called 1809 02:28:46,680 --> 02:28:52,920 pastor Attornis. It's called Pastornis. My gosh, it's not okay. This 1810 02:28:54,040 --> 02:28:56,360 is ridiculous. He doesn't even know his own documents, and then he's playing 1811 02:28:56,440 --> 02:29:01,639 like he's this victim and I'm cutting him off. This is what we get 1812 02:29:01,639 --> 02:29:07,200 with these people. Unbelievable. Connor, Well, I don't know about it 1813 02:29:07,200 --> 02:29:09,680 than one, but I'm gonna come argue it, even though I'm saying I'm 1814 02:29:09,680 --> 02:29:15,799 not arguing. I'm not arguing. Don't come off. They always play these 1815 02:29:15,840 --> 02:29:37,559 games. So sick of these people's games, Connor, go ahead. We 1816 02:29:37,600 --> 02:29:54,280 can't hear you man, no sound from you. Bro Bradley. Somebody said 1817 02:29:54,280 --> 02:29:56,479 I can tell you it was Calolk by the way he's arguing, the pitch 1818 02:29:56,479 --> 02:30:05,920 of his voice. It's always the it's always the same manifestations. Go ahead, 1819 02:30:07,239 --> 02:30:11,200 Hi Jay, Yes, sir, Yes, your last two guests were 1820 02:30:11,319 --> 02:30:16,239 very interesting. Just a little bit of background. I was an RCIA teacher. 1821 02:30:16,120 --> 02:30:20,760 If you don't know what that you know what that is? No for 1822 02:30:20,840 --> 02:30:24,840 several years and one of the things that drew me away from the Roman Catholic 1823 02:30:24,959 --> 02:30:31,120 Church was I simply could not answer the questions of non Catholics who were thinking 1824 02:30:31,159 --> 02:30:37,159 of joining the church I had. I realized I hadn't really thought about some 1825 02:30:37,239 --> 02:30:41,520 of the promulgations coming down from the batting, and especially the Immaculate Conception of 1826 02:30:41,559 --> 02:30:48,879 the eighteen hundreds, and then after nineteen hundred years, the assumption and the 1827 02:30:48,040 --> 02:30:52,360 rationale was always this has always been a part of the belief of the ancient 1828 02:30:52,440 --> 02:30:58,600 Church. Well, if that's the case, then why why doesn't the Orthodox 1829 02:30:58,719 --> 02:31:03,120 Church accept the Immaculate Conception? I mean, how far do you want to 1830 02:31:03,120 --> 02:31:05,719 go back to Saint Anne her parents? It didn't make any sense to me, 1831 02:31:05,760 --> 02:31:11,799 and I realized, even though I had passed that question in high school 1832 02:31:11,840 --> 02:31:16,040 and a religion exam, I didn't really believe it myself. So I couldn't 1833 02:31:16,120 --> 02:31:22,440 really in good conscience continue teaching r CIA something I didn't believe myself. And 1834 02:31:22,479 --> 02:31:28,760 then there were other issues that contributed to my leaving the Roman Catholic Church. 1835 02:31:30,040 --> 02:31:33,000 But that's one issue. I have another issue that I'd like to I don't 1836 02:31:33,000 --> 02:31:37,040 know if this is appropriate for this or not, and if it is, 1837 02:31:37,200 --> 02:31:41,280 if it isn't let me know. After I left the Roman Catholic Church, 1838 02:31:41,399 --> 02:31:46,319 I attended an Antiochian Orthodox Church for about a year and I met a very 1839 02:31:46,360 --> 02:31:50,959 nice couple, man and wife and his son, and they joined on Pasca. 1840 02:31:50,360 --> 02:31:54,920 I didn't join. I really wanted to, but something was kind of 1841 02:31:54,920 --> 02:31:58,840 holding me back because I really come more drawn to Rocor. In any case, 1842 02:32:00,040 --> 02:32:03,200 after about a year they joined, and after a year they had to 1843 02:32:03,239 --> 02:32:09,760 move several hundred miles away and they didn't have a local Antiochian church to go 1844 02:32:09,879 --> 02:32:16,559 to. And from my understanding, what the man told me was his pastor, 1845 02:32:16,799 --> 02:32:20,479 his previous pastor had to undergo a sort of a negotiation with a Greek 1846 02:32:20,559 --> 02:32:24,639 Orthodox church to transfer his membership there. And I wonder. I know that 1847 02:32:24,959 --> 02:32:31,719 there's a population problem and you know, overlapping dioceses and in this country, 1848 02:32:31,760 --> 02:32:39,239 but Orthodox Americans are somewhat at a disadvantage because if you're a Roman Catholic in 1849 02:32:39,280 --> 02:32:41,920 this country, all you need is a letter of transfer to from one church 1850 02:32:41,959 --> 02:32:46,600 to another. It's a pretty simple process. But where you have to cross 1851 02:32:46,719 --> 02:32:50,000 jurisdictions and get permission, you know, to join, I can see that 1852 02:32:50,040 --> 02:32:56,639 as I wonder how many Americans have that problem. I mean, a laity 1853 02:32:56,719 --> 02:32:58,959 can go to whatever Orthodox church they want, they don't have to do letter 1854 02:33:00,120 --> 02:33:07,399 of transfer, So are they are they allowed to Are they allowed to uh 1855 02:33:07,680 --> 02:33:13,079 received communion or do they have to? Is there like I know, yeah, 1856 02:33:13,079 --> 02:33:15,319 absolutely, I'm not trying to be rude. I'm going to move on. 1857 02:33:15,760 --> 02:33:18,159 You know, we're talking about kind of Roman Catholic protests and stuff, 1858 02:33:18,200 --> 02:33:22,079 not orthodox jurisdictional issues. But yeah, I mean, unless you're under some 1859 02:33:22,159 --> 02:33:45,600 canonical impediment, you can Drago got another Roman Catholic. Yeah, I'm mute. 1860 02:33:46,399 --> 02:33:48,959 Is it on me? Sorry because the stuff cut off or someone else 1861 02:33:48,000 --> 02:33:54,520 speaking, You're right, Oh, thanks, j Yeah. So I used 1862 02:33:54,520 --> 02:34:00,399 to be a Protestant, you know, k through twelve school, then became 1863 02:34:00,600 --> 02:34:03,760 a Catholic, went to the University of Notre Dame and Catholic for about eight 1864 02:34:03,840 --> 02:34:07,079 years. But I am you know, I'm going to start looking just get 1865 02:34:07,159 --> 02:34:11,399 up to speed on the different church history positions, Orthodox, Catholic, et 1866 02:34:11,440 --> 02:34:13,120 cetera. But I know we're folks a more on the Protestant stuff. I 1867 02:34:13,120 --> 02:34:16,280 guess my question is, I know, for the Catholic perspective, there's the 1868 02:34:16,319 --> 02:34:22,040 idea of development, whereas you know, people who criticized Catholicism would say, 1869 02:34:22,159 --> 02:34:26,079 yeah, you're kind of adding stuff that that wasn't there before. I know, 1870 02:34:26,159 --> 02:34:31,040 someone mentioned the emaculate conception and well, but also I mean Pastor Attornis 1871 02:34:31,040 --> 02:34:35,879 and about you know, Stati's cognitium. They don't speak as if it's a 1872 02:34:35,920 --> 02:34:39,440 development, They speak as if it was always the case. So I think 1873 02:34:39,479 --> 02:34:45,040 that you're kind of put in a mutually exclusive choice position if you're a Roman 1874 02:34:45,079 --> 02:34:48,559 Catholic as to whether you want to accept development of doctrine or whether you want 1875 02:34:48,600 --> 02:34:54,559 to accept that it was always there. Yeah, it seems I feel. 1876 02:34:54,600 --> 02:34:56,559 I guess the frustration for me is a lot of these claims from both sides 1877 02:34:56,639 --> 02:35:01,200 just seem fundamentally unfalsifiable. Or you just have to choose your axiom and your 1878 02:35:01,200 --> 02:35:05,639 presupposition and that dictates then the rest of how you look at history. Is 1879 02:35:05,680 --> 02:35:09,200 that a fair thing? Or do you think that you can definitively have the 1880 02:35:09,239 --> 02:35:15,760 correct epistemology without resorting to just an arbitrary selection of an axiom. I think 1881 02:35:15,760 --> 02:35:20,440 that if Romancatholicism contradicts at a dogmatic level, that's all you need. That's 1882 02:35:20,639 --> 02:35:28,680 that invalidates the system. And would you say, okay, for example, 1883 02:35:28,799 --> 02:35:33,239 let's say transubstantiation, right, the formalized the presentation like that language wasn't used, 1884 02:35:33,239 --> 02:35:39,000 It wasn't written like that the church. But how can we know whether 1885 02:35:39,399 --> 02:35:46,959 from an argument from silence, whether it's a clarification on something that was previously 1886 02:35:46,000 --> 02:35:50,159 intuitive. So you kind of intuitively knew it, and then you just created 1887 02:35:50,159 --> 02:35:54,319 the language to describe the intuition behind the concept, versus just creating a novel 1888 02:35:54,360 --> 02:36:00,120 concept entirely that wasn't even grasped intuitively, Like is there a reliance? I 1889 02:36:00,159 --> 02:36:05,280 don't, So I think that's a different topic in terms of, you know, 1890 02:36:05,399 --> 02:36:09,520 explicating and clarifying what was already believed. We don't believe that doctrine develops. 1891 02:36:09,559 --> 02:36:13,879 We don't believe that there's something that the faith has at the Seventh Council 1892 02:36:13,920 --> 02:36:18,120 with icons that's new and wasn't the case in the Apostles. Right, So 1893 02:36:18,120 --> 02:36:22,120 a lot of times, for example, Eric Abara will say, well, 1894 02:36:22,239 --> 02:36:26,799 look good the icons they developed. They didn't have those into first century. 1895 02:36:26,079 --> 02:36:30,000 And yet when you read the Seventh Ecumentical Council, it says it's not a 1896 02:36:30,040 --> 02:36:33,120 development, it's an Apostolic tradition. So he goes against the very thing the 1897 02:36:33,159 --> 02:36:35,559 council says. So that's different. So we have a different approach. We 1898 02:36:35,600 --> 02:36:43,280 don't think that there's some deficiency to the patristic period that's complete calling crusades against 1899 02:36:43,360 --> 02:36:46,200 Muslims versus going and praying and moss towards Mecca, because that's a straight up 1900 02:36:46,239 --> 02:36:52,840 contradiction. How is it not, you know, saying at Chalcedon that clerics 1901 02:36:52,879 --> 02:36:58,239 cannot be members of the state, and then you have the papacy saying that 1902 02:36:58,280 --> 02:37:03,520 you have to believe that the papacy is a state with universal world geopolitical power 1903 02:37:03,600 --> 02:37:09,120 to be saved. I mean to me, those are just contradictions. Yeah, 1904 02:37:09,399 --> 02:37:11,040 I have to look into those. On the former one, though, 1905 02:37:11,079 --> 02:37:15,840 we talk about crusades on Muslims versus praying in a mosque, is that just 1906 02:37:15,959 --> 02:37:20,280 kind of like some kind of official doctrinal thing or just more of a pastoral 1907 02:37:20,319 --> 02:37:24,959 discretionary you know, maybe better See again, you can't, like the councils 1908 02:37:26,000 --> 02:37:33,799 teach that clerics cannot go to synagogue's mosques or the gatherings of heretics and schismatics 1909 02:37:33,840 --> 02:37:37,159 to participate in liturgical services. So to go into a mosque as the pope 1910 02:37:37,399 --> 02:37:41,360 and to pray with the Muslims towards Mecca is an action of apostasy. In 1911 02:37:41,479 --> 02:37:46,000 traditional moral theology the Romancolic Church. I see, yeah, I got to 1912 02:37:46,040 --> 02:37:50,120 look at that event. So thanks for mentioning that. And if I could 1913 02:37:50,159 --> 02:37:54,280 just ask one question, you know, yeah, one Protestant brought to mind 1914 02:37:54,319 --> 02:38:01,079 this quote of Augustine and his Retractions where Augustine talks about the you know, 1915 02:38:01,200 --> 02:38:03,079 rock of the Church, and Augustine says, you know, sometimes I say 1916 02:38:03,120 --> 02:38:09,879 it's Peter, sometimes a price confession, but let the reader decide which interpretation. 1917 02:38:09,520 --> 02:38:13,000 And for me, I'm kind of scratching my head, like, why 1918 02:38:13,040 --> 02:38:16,600 is Augustine saying let the reader decide if it's like some arbitrary Well, I 1919 02:38:16,680 --> 02:38:20,719 mean more than that. If you read Denny's book Papalism, you'll find that 1920 02:38:20,760 --> 02:38:24,680 the majority of the church fathers do not expose it that in that way. 1921 02:38:26,319 --> 02:38:31,239 There's a lot of dissension, a lot of dispute about the Rock and about 1922 02:38:31,239 --> 02:38:35,040 Matthew sixteen. And so that to me says, well, wait a minute, 1923 02:38:35,079 --> 02:38:37,920 if there's a lot of dispute and dissension, then it's not so. 1924 02:38:39,079 --> 02:38:41,879 Forty four of the church fathers believe that it's the faith, seventeen of them 1925 02:38:41,920 --> 02:38:46,520 say it's Peter. So so much for what was believed everywhere at all times 1926 02:38:46,559 --> 02:38:52,879 by all. Yeah, no, I see, I see what you're saying. 1927 02:38:54,319 --> 02:38:56,879 What's the what for Orthodox? What does the mean? What is the 1928 02:38:56,879 --> 02:39:01,040 whole primacy of Peter mean? First among equals? Is like? In practice? 1929 02:39:01,280 --> 02:39:03,879 What does that necessarily mean? Is there any added layer of authority or 1930 02:39:05,000 --> 02:39:07,360 is it there no additional authority? Like? What does it mean to be 1931 02:39:07,440 --> 02:39:09,840 first? I still don't quite understand that one. Well. I mean, 1932 02:39:11,000 --> 02:39:15,959 in the ecumenical councils. In the Orthodox view, certain privileges are accorded to 1933 02:39:16,159 --> 02:39:22,559 metropolitan sees, and typically in the history of like the Canons of sartk or 1934 02:39:22,559 --> 02:39:26,399 something like that, you can appeal for a retrial. So if you wanted 1935 02:39:26,440 --> 02:39:31,079 an answer to that from a Roman Catholic perspective, you could read the Alexandria 1936 02:39:31,159 --> 02:39:35,639 document right here, which actually is a Roman Catholic approved document that basically admits 1937 02:39:37,159 --> 02:39:39,479 what we would say. It's basically admitting most of our of our arguments. 1938 02:39:39,479 --> 02:39:43,799 There's a couple of places where I think it still tries to salvage the Roman 1939 02:39:43,840 --> 02:39:48,600 Catholic people position, But for the most part, if this document is correct, 1940 02:39:48,600 --> 02:39:52,559 the Medican one's not true. So, I mean, if you look 1941 02:39:52,600 --> 02:39:58,120 at, for example, the way I'm metropolitan has privileges within his jurisdiction, 1942 02:39:58,280 --> 02:40:03,840 like the Moscow patriarchate. You know, he has privileges about all the bishops 1943 02:40:03,840 --> 02:40:07,639 in his domain. In terms of the synod, he has privileges about priests 1944 02:40:07,639 --> 02:40:16,399 that are ordained, he signs off on them. So different different patriarchates can 1945 02:40:16,440 --> 02:40:20,760 have privileges within their synod. However, those privileges don't really extend outside of 1946 02:40:20,760 --> 02:40:24,200 that jurisdiction. And that's why the Alexandria document and the Chi eighty document admit 1947 02:40:24,600 --> 02:40:31,799 that Rome did not exercise jurisdiction outside of Rome. So whatever privileges it has 1948 02:40:31,840 --> 02:40:37,559 signing the documents first at the ecumenical councils, you know, flowery language, 1949 02:40:39,040 --> 02:40:45,799 whatever, none of that is. You know, Vatican One's super bishop got 1950 02:40:45,840 --> 02:40:48,360 it all right. Well, the thank you J for having me on and 1951 02:40:48,399 --> 02:40:52,479 for hosting these spaces. Absolutely have great questions. I appreciate your your attitude 1952 02:40:52,559 --> 02:40:56,000 as a very civil connor do you want to try again because we get in 1953 02:40:56,040 --> 02:41:11,399 here you a minute ago, A J appreciate you giving me a second chance 1954 02:41:11,440 --> 02:41:16,159 there. So I hope this isn't getting off topic, and I'll feed the 1955 02:41:16,159 --> 02:41:20,760 ground if it is. But I did hear you addressing about pritterism and some 1956 02:41:20,840 --> 02:41:26,799 aschotology questions do And I've been having some discussions with some ultodox I'm Protestants, 1957 02:41:28,159 --> 02:41:39,520 and I have encountered this concept of the Great Apostasy and it's playing. I 1958 02:41:39,559 --> 02:41:43,360 have some questions about what Orthodoxy believes about this. This is the standard teaching. 1959 02:41:43,959 --> 02:41:50,159 And it also seems to me that there might be some issues with with 1960 02:41:50,280 --> 02:41:54,920 the debate about the West most of the East as it as the question is, 1961 02:41:56,239 --> 02:42:01,040 I guess the West kind of looks at the future as we are progressing. 1962 02:42:01,600 --> 02:42:07,559 There was a progression in Christianity is looking for the future that is going 1963 02:42:07,600 --> 02:42:13,120 to be different than the the past or the present. And maybe Orthodoxy doesn't 1964 02:42:13,120 --> 02:42:16,479 see things this way, if you mean, like, do we see truth 1965 02:42:16,559 --> 02:42:22,200 as something static and unchanging? Yes, So the faith that's once we're all 1966 02:42:22,200 --> 02:42:26,000 delivered to the saints, as Jude says in Jude three, that's sufficient, 1967 02:42:26,319 --> 02:42:33,040 right, So there's nothing that occurs in the seventh century that makes up for 1968 02:42:33,120 --> 02:42:37,360 deficiencies in the first or second century. So a lot of Roman Catholics have 1969 02:42:37,440 --> 02:42:43,239 this attitude of like, well, you know, that was the early infant 1970 02:42:43,319 --> 02:42:48,040 church and it hadn't developed into the flowery medieval, you know, worldly kingdom 1971 02:42:48,079 --> 02:42:52,760 of the papacy. Yet we would say no, no, it's there's nothing 1972 02:42:52,799 --> 02:43:00,239 deficient in the first century that the seventh century adds, and so can them. 1973 02:43:00,639 --> 02:43:05,319 You seem to you seem to buy into that view without a general Orthodox 1974 02:43:05,440 --> 02:43:09,079 view. I would say most of the Eastern church fathers that comments on those 1975 02:43:09,079 --> 02:43:18,200 passages have a typical partial predators attitude. Athanatos Syrial uh St John Chris System. 1976 02:43:18,399 --> 02:43:22,520 Okay. In the Great Apostasy, is this a concept in Orthodoxy or 1977 02:43:22,559 --> 02:43:24,680 what is that? Yeah, I would say when it's discussed, Uh, 1978 02:43:26,040 --> 02:43:30,360 you have a lot of elders, saints and church fathers that talk about a 1979 02:43:30,399 --> 02:43:35,159 final day's apostasy based on the Thessalonians text. Yes, there's an Orthodox book 1980 02:43:35,239 --> 02:43:43,639 that's well known called Apostasy and Antichrist that's put out by Jordanville Monastery Jordanville Monster. 1981 02:43:46,520 --> 02:43:52,520 Okay, but so truth doesn't change. But then Christianity is progressing to 1982 02:43:52,959 --> 02:43:58,000 with some vision of the future. I mean again, you're you're using kind 1983 02:43:58,000 --> 02:44:01,799 of terms that that are not like, I don't know what you mean by 1984 02:44:01,840 --> 02:44:05,719 progressing. I mean we would say that you know, the Gospel being spread 1985 02:44:05,799 --> 02:44:11,120 is progression, but progressing like in the progressivism or Newman's doctrinal development. No, 1986 02:44:11,200 --> 02:44:15,520 we don't believe those things. No, I totally understand that. But 1987 02:44:15,600 --> 02:44:18,440 I guess, and I'm using language because I don't. I don't really have 1988 02:44:18,440 --> 02:44:24,520 the theological language's that's okay. I have very conservative beliefs, so I'm not 1989 02:44:24,680 --> 02:44:28,079 I'm not talking about liberalism per se. But I do find this frame, 1990 02:44:28,120 --> 02:44:33,399 it seems like with a lot of Orthodox where they just find everything like the 1991 02:44:33,440 --> 02:44:39,200 whole rational mind in the West is corrupted because we're trying to we're trying to 1992 02:44:39,239 --> 02:44:45,120 create a society or a world that is better than the one we have now. 1993 02:44:45,399 --> 02:44:48,719 And it seems to me that in the Christian frame, this is essentially 1994 02:44:48,719 --> 02:44:52,239 what we are doing. Yes, so maybe we're not discovering more truth, 1995 02:44:52,280 --> 02:44:56,200 but we do have to just we do. I mean, we do have 1996 02:44:56,239 --> 02:44:58,360 to discover more truth. The truth is not changing, but we're discovering it 1997 02:44:58,479 --> 02:45:03,319 now. Well, there's created truths and you know, truths about the world 1998 02:45:03,360 --> 02:45:07,559 and nature, and those are those can be new discoveries. But we're not 1999 02:45:07,600 --> 02:45:13,200 making new theological discoveries. There's no new dogmas or something like this. So 2000 02:45:15,360 --> 02:45:18,159 again I guess I'm just not sure what what what you're getting at with that. 2001 02:45:20,360 --> 02:45:24,079 No, it's probably off topic for the for the space, but I'm 2002 02:45:24,079 --> 02:45:28,040 gonna look that up. So the Great, the Great Apostasy Book? Can 2003 02:45:28,079 --> 02:45:35,959 you give me the title? One? And Anti Christ Jordanville Monastery. Okay, 2004 02:45:35,000 --> 02:45:41,719 thank you, you have good questions, Concreasador. I'm getting a little 2005 02:45:41,719 --> 02:45:45,920 tired, so I'm gonna have to wrap it up pretty soon. We've been 2006 02:45:45,959 --> 02:45:58,639 going for a long time today. Good I'm your you guys. Hey, 2007 02:46:00,239 --> 02:46:03,280 Jay, thanks for having me. I gotta admit a lot of smart speakers 2008 02:46:03,280 --> 02:46:07,200 in here. I'm kind of retarded when it comes to that, just a 2009 02:46:07,280 --> 02:46:13,159 lowly new Protestant here. My biggest question for you is what do you think 2010 02:46:13,399 --> 02:46:16,159 Protestantism is getting right in America today? And what do you think is getting 2011 02:46:16,159 --> 02:46:26,200 wrong? Thank you? Well, I wouldn't say that Protestantism as a whole 2012 02:46:26,280 --> 02:46:31,719 collective movement is like doing things right, because it kind of assumes that it's 2013 02:46:31,840 --> 02:46:39,280 like this singular front. I think that the best way I could frame that 2014 02:46:39,479 --> 02:46:45,399 is there's a lot of sincere individual Protestants who are doing good things and who 2015 02:46:45,440 --> 02:46:48,559 mean well and are sincere. But I don't think that there's any like collective 2016 02:46:48,639 --> 02:46:54,040 bodies of Protestantism that I would get behind or say that it's really that they're 2017 02:46:54,040 --> 02:46:58,479 really doing good things. So good question, what are they doing wrong? 2018 02:47:00,959 --> 02:47:07,040 I think the protestantsm just kind of started as a reaction to legitimate corruption in 2019 02:47:07,079 --> 02:47:11,040 the Roman Church and unfortunately kind of threw out a lot of the baby with 2020 02:47:11,280 --> 02:47:18,079 the bathwater. So as a historical movement, I think it's pretty much been 2021 02:47:18,200 --> 02:47:22,920 a pretty bad, pretty big failure. But that's not to speak to individual 2022 02:47:22,000 --> 02:47:26,920 Protestants, who I think many of whom are good and are sincere and are 2023 02:47:26,879 --> 02:47:50,120 doing good things. Michael, you got im, mute man, Gimothy Torton 2024 02:47:50,239 --> 02:47:54,440 one dollar. Tim says that he's not at theologian when you're ask him questions, 2025 02:47:54,440 --> 02:47:58,760 and he constantly makes videos on theology. Yeah, I mean, I 2026 02:47:58,799 --> 02:48:03,200 got. I think Tim likes to just stay in the wheelhouse of philosophy and 2027 02:48:03,399 --> 02:48:07,639 cultural war. So that's probably what he feels like is his wheelhouse. Harry 2028 02:48:07,680 --> 02:48:11,000 Sarpano's ten dollars, Jenny, thank you for good works and exposing falsehoods. 2029 02:48:11,440 --> 02:48:16,120 Thank you, Harry, appreciate that long time super chatter. Now we lost 2030 02:48:16,399 --> 02:48:20,479 our dude or Michael, you're still there. Do you want to unmute? 2031 02:48:22,079 --> 02:48:26,959 You're up, man, if you want to unmute and talk all right, 2032 02:48:31,360 --> 02:49:03,799 moving on schoolyon history, you gotta ummute. Sorry, sorry about the Jake 2033 02:49:03,840 --> 02:49:07,920 and you hear me? What's up? Man? Hey man? First off? 2034 02:49:11,399 --> 02:49:15,600 Okay, so yeah, funny enough. I actually I think I know 2035 02:49:15,719 --> 02:49:18,959 that one angry Joe guy, that Catholic guy. I'm pretty sure he's my 2036 02:49:20,040 --> 02:49:24,879 buddy's uh co worker, work for a Catholic studio, And I just want 2037 02:49:24,959 --> 02:49:28,239 to just I'm not here to debate, I'm orthodox, but really quick, 2038 02:49:28,879 --> 02:49:31,760 I just wanted to say that, like, you know, I think the 2039 02:49:31,840 --> 02:49:37,799 problem is with a lot of Catholics is they when debating, they're looking into 2040 02:49:39,000 --> 02:49:43,639 really technical issues and they're getting so detailed they kind of miss the force for 2041 02:49:43,680 --> 02:49:46,399 the trees, you know, and they see it as like I don't think 2042 02:49:46,440 --> 02:49:50,719 the Night's Catholics were detailed, So no, but you know what I mean, 2043 02:49:50,799 --> 02:49:56,639 Like I basically I think they they get stuck on you know, but 2044 02:49:56,159 --> 02:50:00,719 they get stuck on these little points, right, and they'll and then you 2045 02:50:00,840 --> 02:50:03,239 kind of lose your way, or at least that's what I find when I'm 2046 02:50:03,719 --> 02:50:07,239 debating my Catholic buddies. But I think the funny thing is it's like if 2047 02:50:07,280 --> 02:50:11,159 you look back, I think the right way to go is like with the 2048 02:50:11,159 --> 02:50:16,440 Pope, as you say, you know, it's not a technical thing, 2049 02:50:16,479 --> 02:50:20,200 but they look at it as a technicality. I talked to a Catholic buddy 2050 02:50:20,200 --> 02:50:24,280 and I said, is it supposed to work? Is the Pope supposed to 2051 02:50:24,479 --> 02:50:28,680 bring clarification? And he said, technically, technically it's supposed to work. 2052 02:50:28,040 --> 02:50:33,840 And to me, the question is like, does God work in technicalities or 2053 02:50:33,879 --> 02:50:35,799 does he work in reality? Well? No, I mean I think they 2054 02:50:35,879 --> 02:50:39,719 end up with this sort of Telmudic type attitude ultimately, where no, God 2055 02:50:39,760 --> 02:50:46,879 works on technicalities and he tallies up your days that you owe and temporal punishment 2056 02:50:46,920 --> 02:50:48,719 purgatory and if you don't pay off every day. I mean, it's just 2057 02:50:48,840 --> 02:50:52,079 ridiculous. So not trying to be mean, but I do want to get 2058 02:50:52,120 --> 02:51:11,799 through some more of these m jancomo undici. So you got another Catholic h 2059 02:51:13,639 --> 02:51:28,120 kah, go ahead, got i'm you. Did you not turn your mic 2060 02:51:28,200 --> 02:51:41,680 on, bro jihncono gihncomo undici, we can't hear you. Man, come 2061 02:51:41,680 --> 02:52:01,319 out and come back in turn on your michm all right, let's try again. 2062 02:52:07,079 --> 02:52:09,440 Oh well, yes, sir, how's it going? Can you? 2063 02:52:09,479 --> 02:52:13,200 Can you hear me? Yeah? Man? All right. So I've been 2064 02:52:13,239 --> 02:52:16,239 listening to a few of these people, and I've actually watched a few of 2065 02:52:16,280 --> 02:52:20,399 your debates. I think I watched you maybe debated some big eric I think 2066 02:52:20,440 --> 02:52:24,719 his name was, and then I watched this other guy, Luigi debates some 2067 02:52:24,760 --> 02:52:28,440 other guy. So I've watched a few of these debates, and I've seen 2068 02:52:28,440 --> 02:52:31,799 the orthod. So the Orthodox they seem to in these debates, it seems 2069 02:52:31,840 --> 02:52:37,520 to appeal to Vatican one and they go back in one is why Roman Catholicism 2070 02:52:37,639 --> 02:52:41,200 is false? And I guess my question is, I don't know if I'm 2071 02:52:41,319 --> 02:52:43,200 able to, like I from like suit a debate this, But I guess 2072 02:52:43,239 --> 02:52:48,600 my question is, wouldn't it just make more sense to debate from the schism 2073 02:52:48,120 --> 02:52:52,120 like from that and like before and see like, okay, which system was 2074 02:52:52,159 --> 02:52:56,959 true at that point because that's when they broke off and then you see which 2075 02:52:56,040 --> 02:52:58,520 church which is true? Beforehand? Like? Does that? You see what 2076 02:52:58,559 --> 02:53:01,600 I'm saying? Why don't you debate? No? This is an argument I 2077 02:53:01,639 --> 02:53:05,719 make all the time. I've done countless live trains where I argue that the 2078 02:53:05,840 --> 02:53:09,440 church of the first thousand years is the way that we would determine who the 2079 02:53:09,479 --> 02:53:16,719 ancient church is. So I'm saying, like you, a lot of like 2080 02:53:16,719 --> 02:53:18,319 what I've been hearing today is just like you talk about zatk in one. 2081 02:53:18,559 --> 02:53:22,559 Well, that's just what came up tonight. But I've made countless hours of 2082 02:53:22,639 --> 02:53:28,799 videos arguing from the first thousand years of the church. Okay, yeah, 2083 02:53:28,840 --> 02:53:31,280 that was probably my that was my main question. I have like another small 2084 02:53:31,360 --> 02:53:37,520 question. Okay, so I saw this on Twitter. There was this like 2085 02:53:37,639 --> 02:53:41,639 deacons in the Orthodox Church who like I don't know what, I don't know 2086 02:53:41,680 --> 02:53:45,239 exactly what it was, but she was a deacons and she was like handing 2087 02:53:45,280 --> 02:53:48,639 out to Eucharist. How and like the Orthodox system cannot be like stopped or 2088 02:53:48,760 --> 02:53:54,159 something like that, be like not let's stop, because it's rejected by most 2089 02:53:54,200 --> 02:53:58,040 of the Orthodox world. So it's a very small minority who really wants to 2090 02:53:58,040 --> 02:54:01,879 push these things. So how does like that situation get like handled is like 2091 02:54:01,959 --> 02:54:07,920 within like the local church, And yeah, if if it continues, then 2092 02:54:07,920 --> 02:54:11,920 eventually they get basically rejected by the rest of the Orthodox Church. And synods 2093 02:54:11,959 --> 02:54:22,719 would come, would consider them condemned and so forth. So they're more Roman 2094 02:54:22,760 --> 02:54:26,319 Catholics, so we get a lot of a lot of Orthodox questions. So 2095 02:54:26,840 --> 02:54:35,920 I'm getting pretty tired modern apostate. It's a Catholic. My mind's turning too 2096 02:54:35,959 --> 02:54:43,959 much. Because we did a live stream before this. Yeah, it's just 2097 02:54:43,000 --> 02:54:46,200 kind of funny to hear people talk about it like problems in the Orthodox Church 2098 02:54:46,280 --> 02:54:50,399 when you know, like I live in Chicago, and you know, a 2099 02:54:50,479 --> 02:54:54,000 priest's blessing the gay union, and then you know, like there's I saw 2100 02:54:54,040 --> 02:54:58,879 a video recently where there's this woman she's offering masks, and it's just it's 2101 02:54:58,920 --> 02:55:03,479 just kind of ridiculous. And I I'm Catholic, but I'm considering converting because 2102 02:55:03,520 --> 02:55:09,159 it's just all the arguments seem to be very convincing. One thing I wanted 2103 02:55:09,159 --> 02:55:13,159 to ask was if if I'm considering converting, how do I go about living 2104 02:55:13,360 --> 02:55:18,600 liturgical life? So, for example, if I'm Catholic and I've committed sins, 2105 02:55:18,760 --> 02:55:22,360 should I go continue going to the confession in the Catholic Church or should 2106 02:55:22,360 --> 02:55:28,280 I wait until I'm accepted into the Orthodox Church? Yeah, I mean I 2107 02:55:28,280 --> 02:55:35,319 would I would say I wouldn't. I mean, you're gonna do probably what 2108 02:55:35,360 --> 02:55:39,200 your conscience dictates to you. So I can't tell you what your conscience is, 2109 02:55:39,280 --> 02:55:43,120 and it shouldn't be. But if I were in that situation, I 2110 02:55:43,159 --> 02:55:48,840 wouldn't continue the Roman Catholic stuff because I think you're uniting yourself spiritually. Not 2111 02:55:48,840 --> 02:55:54,040 trying to be rude, but I mean, we see a communion as something 2112 02:55:54,200 --> 02:55:58,719 important, and who you're in communion with matters, and I would not want 2113 02:55:58,760 --> 02:56:03,040 to be in communion with friends. So because there's a spiritual thing going on 2114 02:56:03,159 --> 02:56:15,680 there, Centurion, you got I'm mute, Hey, can you guys hear 2115 02:56:15,680 --> 02:56:18,559 me? Good? Even Jay, thanks so much for having on. So 2116 02:56:20,000 --> 02:56:22,680 I'm coming from a Protestant background. I was raised as a Lutheran and then 2117 02:56:22,680 --> 02:56:26,520 I kind of aposthesize, went through you know, whole atheist phase, all 2118 02:56:26,559 --> 02:56:30,200 that stuff, and coming back into it now. I am very interested in 2119 02:56:30,719 --> 02:56:35,559 Orthodoxy, leaning towards it. Absolutely wonderful sort of a question for you, 2120 02:56:35,600 --> 02:56:41,079 coming from almost a Roman Catholic perspective, because one of my Catholic friends was 2121 02:56:41,120 --> 02:56:43,040 trying to convince me not to go Orthodox, and one thing he mentioned was 2122 02:56:43,079 --> 02:56:52,600 that there's an Orthodox tradition of denying women communion if they are on their menstrual 2123 02:56:52,639 --> 02:56:58,239 cycle, and from a Protestant background, denying communion as someone just seems kind 2124 02:56:58,239 --> 02:57:01,719 of wrong to me. Yeah, this is just a thing that pops up 2125 02:57:01,760 --> 02:57:07,719 in certain Russian areas for whatever. It's kind of a Russian superstition that pops 2126 02:57:07,799 --> 02:57:11,879 up. Sometimes. It's not the norm, and it has to do. 2127 02:57:11,959 --> 02:57:16,200 It's just sort of like people reading Old Testament texts and then sort of getting 2128 02:57:18,760 --> 02:57:22,680 concerned with this. But it's not usually the case. I've never I've only 2129 02:57:22,680 --> 02:57:30,040 heard it discussed as a thing that happens sometimes. But to me, I 2130 02:57:30,120 --> 02:57:33,399 don't think that should make It doesn't make sense in terms of the liberty that 2131 02:57:33,440 --> 02:57:37,200 we have in the New Covenant, I wouldn't think so. But you do 2132 02:57:37,280 --> 02:57:45,559 sometimes get these like the Old Believers, for example, they developed some kind 2133 02:57:45,559 --> 02:57:50,280 of weird superstitions at times. So I'm not knocking everybody that attends an Old 2134 02:57:50,319 --> 02:57:54,120 Ride or whatever. I'm just saying that sometimes you can get these sort of 2135 02:57:54,120 --> 02:58:24,360 superstitious ideas that developed. Chris, what's up? Uh? So it looks 2136 02:58:24,399 --> 02:58:33,959 like Chris can't connect. Donald wants to come on, Okay, Donald Trump's 2137 02:58:33,959 --> 02:58:39,399 here, finally, unbelievable. We have a great guy, Donald Rubby Sham 2138 02:58:39,479 --> 02:58:43,120 He's gonna be great good. I'm mute, gonna have to im mute. 2139 02:58:43,120 --> 02:58:48,760 I gotta tell you if you good, I'm mute. Hello, Yeah, 2140 02:58:48,840 --> 02:58:54,920 hey Jay, can you hear me? Okay? Sorry Jay? Hey j 2141 02:58:54,200 --> 02:59:01,000 Dyer. I've been a huge fan since early twenty eight, twenty nineteen. 2142 02:59:01,079 --> 02:59:07,120 Part of my preachings is that that you won the culture Wars, you beat 2143 02:59:07,319 --> 02:59:13,559 JF at blood Sports. Okay, back the thing anyway, I've been exclusively 2144 02:59:16,760 --> 02:59:22,000 Jad what the freg before that and ever since Jay Dyer all the way. 2145 02:59:22,120 --> 02:59:26,799 I'm a Protestant born a Catholic, went through the ropes, you know, 2146 02:59:26,000 --> 02:59:31,280 the early stuff. I'm sorry to ask, but I just wanted to know, 2147 02:59:31,120 --> 02:59:37,399 as it was brought up today, what is the rapture like? Is 2148 02:59:37,440 --> 02:59:43,040 it a thing like? What does the Bible say about the end times? 2149 02:59:43,079 --> 02:59:46,600 What does it really look like? Even though like I've gone through like the 2150 02:59:46,600 --> 02:59:50,760 Bible twenty times, I really don't concentrate on the end times. I've also 2151 02:59:50,920 --> 02:59:58,680 have seen you also have you seen terrors amongst the wheat seql to lamp and 2152 02:59:58,760 --> 03:00:05,639 the which goes into the beginnings of the Protestant and Catholic crusade against them. 2153 03:00:05,760 --> 03:00:09,079 I won't take up any more of your time. Good sir, I love 2154 03:00:09,120 --> 03:00:13,879 you, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, I have not seen 2155 03:00:13,959 --> 03:00:18,559 the documentary or movie that you're talking about. The rapture is a there is 2156 03:00:18,600 --> 03:00:24,360 a bodily assumption resurrection event that occurs in the Book of Thessalonians. But we 2157 03:00:24,360 --> 03:00:28,280 would say, Paul just talking about the last days, the final the general 2158 03:00:28,319 --> 03:00:33,239 resurrection of all men, and then the eternal state. So there's no pre 2159 03:00:33,319 --> 03:00:41,639 tribulation rapture. This is a Plymouth Brethren Protestant created doctrine. John Nelson Darby 2160 03:00:41,799 --> 03:00:45,959 and C. I. Schofield and the whole idea of dispensationalism made up this 2161 03:00:46,079 --> 03:00:50,840 idea. It has nothing really to do with anything in terms of historic Christianity. 2162 03:00:50,920 --> 03:00:56,159 And yeah, so fond ten dollars. I used to I visited the 2163 03:00:56,159 --> 03:01:01,079 Pentecostal Church. It is the same atmosphere as a temple in Pentecostal Church. 2164 03:01:01,120 --> 03:01:05,959 God inhabits them. They scream and shake, they jibber. This was on 2165 03:01:07,040 --> 03:01:11,879 a Hindu telegram. Yeah, okay, so he's quoting a person on a 2166 03:01:11,959 --> 03:01:20,360 Hindu telegram saying that the Pentecostal church is just like demonic manifestations of Hindus. 2167 03:01:20,079 --> 03:01:24,600 Yes, Father Surfer Rose was great, Low pen ten dollars is off topic. 2168 03:01:24,719 --> 03:01:31,079 But there's a fourth book by Quickly called Weapons Systems and Political Stability. 2169 03:01:31,159 --> 03:01:33,200 Yeah, I don't have that when I bought his Evolution of Civilization's book, 2170 03:01:33,799 --> 03:01:37,239 but I don't have the one that you're talking about. It's a sequel to 2171 03:01:37,680 --> 03:01:41,440 Tragi Hope. That's interesting. I didn't know that. I mean, Angle 2172 03:01:41,440 --> 03:01:45,840 American Establishment's kind of a sequel. But it's a book that was written the 2173 03:01:45,879 --> 03:01:48,319 last twelve years of his life. I'll have to get that, Thank you, 2174 03:01:48,360 --> 03:01:52,879 LoWPAN Caleb of three dollars. I'm going to read these quick because my 2175 03:01:52,879 --> 03:02:00,479 mind is turning in the most prostant for ins at Orthodoxy's contradictory because he says 2176 03:02:00,639 --> 03:02:03,360 I baptized infants. Because wait, we say I'm baptized infants don't go to 2177 03:02:03,360 --> 03:02:11,799 Hell. Professions does not say they go to Hell. Uh. He says 2178 03:02:11,799 --> 03:02:20,559 it's a contradiction. It's not a contradiction. Stelio's ten dollars. What would 2179 03:02:20,559 --> 03:02:26,239 be the response to a Catholic? He says that Saint Justinian is a heretic 2180 03:02:26,479 --> 03:02:37,799 when the Orthodox Church accepts. Read the Kenneth Vasha book Saint Justinian Christology Saint 2181 03:02:37,879 --> 03:02:43,799 Justinian Kenneth Vasha, w E. S c H. I've never heard that 2182 03:02:43,840 --> 03:02:48,239 he reposed as an ethartodoctist. I've not heard that talk. Who have five 2183 03:02:48,280 --> 03:02:56,399 dollars? In answer to a fellow who was thinking about confession when I was 2184 03:02:56,440 --> 03:03:03,440 an Orthodox catechimum, my priest wanted me to confess periodically in a practiced, 2185 03:03:03,680 --> 03:03:11,639 non sacramental way. But he's talking about confessing to his Catholic priest. So 2186 03:03:11,559 --> 03:03:18,000 you can't confess in a non sacramental way? Or did you mean as a 2187 03:03:18,040 --> 03:03:20,399 catechumen to him? Maybe that's what you meant. I think that's what you 2188 03:03:20,440 --> 03:03:24,280 meant. Since Sara Hippocert three dollars thirty seasons is a coherent for Orthodox to 2189 03:03:24,319 --> 03:03:33,559 reject the liberal paradigm while thinking that free market is the best economic system. 2190 03:03:33,879 --> 03:03:39,719 You can go back and watch my old podcast, the Critiquing Libertarian Economics. 2191 03:03:39,040 --> 03:03:43,479 Any last, Roman Catholics, I'm not taking anything except raise your hand for 2192 03:03:43,600 --> 03:03:48,440 Roman Catholic all right, no more, I can't take it anymore. My 2193 03:03:48,520 --> 03:03:50,879 mind is mush. Thank you, guys, appreciate that I'll be sure and 2194 03:03:50,920 --> 03:03:54,520 have over to chalk dot com. He's promo go j forty four Life Go 2195 03:03:54,559 --> 03:03:58,760 get tickets to our live event June twenty second in Vegas. Thank you, guys,