1 00:00:28,559 --> 00:00:31,879 And welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willis to host, and a couple 2 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,359 of things before we get started with our great guest, I want to wish 3 00:00:34,399 --> 00:00:40,039 everyone a merry Christmas that celebrates Christmas. We'll be back on the twenty six 4 00:00:40,799 --> 00:00:47,119 and I hope you have a wonderful, wonderful time. And with our guest 5 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:51,359 tonight, I've been really looking forward to speaking to him, actually a long 6 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:57,200 time. When he first came out, Jacques Valet and I think it was 7 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:02,439 Wonders in the Sky came out with Historic UFOs I was doing the show. 8 00:01:02,439 --> 00:01:07,480 I can't remember exactly when it was, but I've always really have been fascinated 9 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:12,000 by that aspect of you know, the ufology, the ancient stories and things 10 00:01:12,079 --> 00:01:17,799 like that. So it's Chris Aubek and he'll be coming in in just a 11 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:23,079 minute. We're going to be talking about his new book called Just Let's See. 12 00:01:23,079 --> 00:01:29,200 It's called Alien Artifacts, The Forgotten Story of how we came to believe 13 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:34,719 in visitors from the stars, and so really looking forward to speaking to him 14 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,599 about that. And he's also going to touch a little bit on his other 15 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:42,680 book, which is about disc shaped objects. So it should be fascinating our 16 00:01:42,719 --> 00:01:48,680 blog this week is a Nuts and Bolts UFO Guy and Marley Woods by Charles 17 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,640 Lear. Check that out. And of course, of course, last week 18 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:57,120 we had a blog including our guests tonight Chris Aubec, so check that out 19 00:01:57,159 --> 00:02:00,599 as well. I'm going to link both of those to the show notes. 20 00:02:01,319 --> 00:02:07,680 And I think that is about it again. I wish you all merry Christmas, 21 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:12,000 those who celebrate, and let me bring my guests in now. Hey, 22 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:15,439 Chris, welcome to the show. Hi, Hi there. And I 23 00:02:15,479 --> 00:02:19,560 do have to say that this is a pre recorded show because I guess it 24 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,400 would be in the middle of the night where you live, right, I 25 00:02:23,439 --> 00:02:27,719 think about two in the morning or something like that. Yeah, it's my 26 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:31,159 normal hours. Yeah, yeah, it's four pm now here in Spain. 27 00:02:31,759 --> 00:02:38,280 And yeah, yeah, so I have done I have done shows at at 28 00:02:38,439 --> 00:02:40,560 very strange times in the in the middle of the night for me, and 29 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:46,719 I've sort of looked like this and it's likely to find the show about I 30 00:02:46,759 --> 00:02:51,479 suppose. So I like to ask this of my guests that I haven't spoken 31 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:57,639 to before prior, what actually led to you having a fascination with this topic? 32 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,879 Mm hmm. Well, when I was a teenager around fourteen, thirteen 33 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:07,479 years old, I collected Marvel comics in London. I'm from London originally, 34 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:17,520 and I remember going to this market store where i'd pick up nineteen sixties Avengers 35 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:25,000 comic books, and I came across an old, scruffy paperback by Eric Vondarniken. 36 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:30,599 It was his second book, I Returned to the Stars, and I 37 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:36,560 thought it was pretty fascinating, and my mind was already open to sort of 38 00:03:36,599 --> 00:03:44,680 science fiction type possibilities because of my comic reading, and so I started reading 39 00:03:44,719 --> 00:03:50,800 that and I thought, this is interesting how mythology, folklore and archaeology seemed 40 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:57,639 to intersect, and how this might support the idea that our planet had been 41 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:04,000 visited by aliens in antiquity. And it started from then. I became a 42 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:10,840 member of the Ancient Astronaut Society when I was about fifteen sixteen. When I 43 00:04:10,919 --> 00:04:15,639 was eighteen, I went off to the States spent a couple of weeks visiting 44 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:25,399 some of my favorite authors, and then I began looking into this in a 45 00:04:25,399 --> 00:04:31,240 different way, by searching through old books and newspapers for any kind of evidence 46 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:38,560 I could on the subject of strange phenomena in general, but particularly UFOs that 47 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:47,279 happened to well our ancestors view of the paranormal h I mentioned this something. 48 00:04:47,319 --> 00:04:50,040 I don't know if you've ever seen this, but when you're going back in 49 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:55,639 time, this is really interesting. I put this up a couple of times 50 00:04:55,800 --> 00:05:00,879 during my show. It's the Simeon Perkins Diary of seventeen ninety six. Have 51 00:05:00,959 --> 00:05:05,079 you ever heard of that? Yeah? I have mentioned that one. Oh 52 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,560 you did mention that one. Yeah. Here here's the account of it. 53 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:14,720 I've shown that a few But it's fascinating when you really think about, you 54 00:05:14,759 --> 00:05:18,079 know, all through time there's been something reported, you know. I mean 55 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:23,439 you go back and some of your books to back to early BC history, 56 00:05:23,879 --> 00:05:28,319 you know what I mean, And it really is something, you know. 57 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:32,399 I read a couple of excerpts from your latest book, and one of them 58 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:38,920 is the fictional account. I can't remember exactly what it's called, but eighteen 59 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:44,000 forty six or seven, I think it was maybe eighteen forty eight, when 60 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,680 the guy's looking into the telescope and he has his wife take a look in 61 00:05:47,759 --> 00:05:53,079 the thing leands. But you know what's really I know that's fictional, but 62 00:05:53,319 --> 00:05:58,120 really what's really interesting about that is the thing that you hear people say a 63 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:03,199 lot about when they have an counter with being is the tight fitted suit that 64 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,680 they wear, and that was back then. It it almost makes you wonder 65 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:12,319 if the fiction was based on something well, I mean, the idea of 66 00:06:12,319 --> 00:06:16,160 a tight fitting suit is actually earlier than that. That would be eighteenth century 67 00:06:16,519 --> 00:06:24,720 when we're talking about Immanuel Swedenborg, the Swedish mystic who said that he'd met 68 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:33,199 aliens and traveled through the universe, had encountered extraterrestrials on many different planets, 69 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:42,920 and he said that the Mercurians were the most interesting, who travel around planets 70 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:48,519 looking for information, trying to build a kind of encyclopedia of knowledge about the 71 00:06:48,519 --> 00:06:56,839 whole of existence. And they dress in blue one piece suits without seams, 72 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:03,040 And of course Swedenborg's understand was that they were from the planet Mercury. These 73 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:12,279 days we would call them grays or whatever race of extraterrestrials is currently in fashion. 74 00:07:12,639 --> 00:07:18,079 But the parallels are very interesting. I write in Alien Artifacts this book 75 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:29,639 that you've been mentioning about how the sweden Book's Mercurians traveled the universe in a 76 00:07:29,759 --> 00:07:35,560 sphere of light, how they could read minds. They used a form of 77 00:07:35,639 --> 00:07:41,959 telepathy, and we're talking about a period in which the expression telepathy hadn't been 78 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:49,959 coined yet. Parallels are deep and fascinating. That's really something, and it's 79 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:57,199 pretty interesting how they always assumed that they were basically in our Solar System from 80 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:03,920 one of the planets that we know of, and Swedenborg did say that he 81 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:11,600 traveled outside our Solar System too. I mean, the idea of the inhabited 82 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:18,279 universe replete with life goes back to the ancient Greeks, to the atomist school 83 00:08:18,759 --> 00:08:22,399 of thought. They believed that all things were made from atoms, which is 84 00:08:22,439 --> 00:08:31,120 an amazing conclusion to reach when microscopes hadn't been invented yet. And they believe 85 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:39,200 that well, this particular school of thought believe that our atoms sort of formed 86 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:45,000 form patterns and formed living beings and mountains and whatever, and that it would 87 00:08:45,519 --> 00:08:50,679 be replicated throughout the universe. And so they were aware of planets beyond the 88 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:58,000 Solar System. They believed in galaxies and probably an infinite number of galaxies where 89 00:08:58,799 --> 00:09:05,039 or life would have been created in just the same way that it happened on 90 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:11,960 planet Earth. You know, I recently had Adam frank On an astrophysicist, 91 00:09:13,399 --> 00:09:18,960 and you know, I brought that up about you know, how likely you 92 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,360 know, life is out there, you know, in his thoughts and his 93 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:30,360 opinions and things like that, and most people like him. It was his 94 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:35,000 opinion as well, is that us being you know, bipedal binocular vision, 95 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:43,360 you know, opposing thumbs is kind of it would never happen again, you 96 00:09:43,399 --> 00:09:48,200 know, so that seems like very unlikely to him. But you know, 97 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:54,360 I personally think it's it just seems like evolution goes in that direction because it 98 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,559 works. But then again, there are so many variables and that's that's what 99 00:09:58,639 --> 00:10:01,799 you do here. A lot is you know, humanoid type figures, and 100 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:05,919 you know, I mean there are all types of concepts of course, as 101 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,360 you know, you know, the time travel one and all that, and 102 00:10:09,759 --> 00:10:15,399 the hybrid. You know, people are suggesting that or as I've brought up 103 00:10:15,399 --> 00:10:18,759 on the show before, I was told by someone that was in Vietnam studying 104 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:24,799 UFOs for the Air Force told me in the nineteen nineties that he thought the 105 00:10:24,879 --> 00:10:28,840 government thought we were a Petri dish, which I that the aliens are using 106 00:10:28,879 --> 00:10:33,279 us like a Petrit dish, you know, that was what he The conclusion 107 00:10:33,399 --> 00:10:37,320 at that time, in the sixties late sixties, that he was told by 108 00:10:37,399 --> 00:10:41,519 someone in the government at that time, according to him. You know, 109 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:46,000 I'm not saying these are all factual, because I don't really know. But 110 00:10:46,159 --> 00:10:54,679 still it is interesting how they always seemed to be very much humanoid, you 111 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,480 know, and these encounters you don't often hear of any other type of strange 112 00:10:58,519 --> 00:11:01,039 being. You do hear the variation, and I didn't. One of your 113 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:07,399 accounts say that they thought they had springs on their feet so they could travel 114 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:09,360 fast for something like that, which I think is pretty well. There were 115 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:18,159 lots of in the nineteenth century, many mediums during the spiritualist movement said that 116 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:24,759 they could travel into space using the power of their minds, basically what we 117 00:11:24,799 --> 00:11:33,480 would call remote viewing today. And they said that they had had encounters or 118 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:39,200 at least observed beings on other planets who used springs on their feet. But 119 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:46,919 those were not the typical stories. What I do in this book is in 120 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,960 fact it's a book series, and I was rather hoping it would be only 121 00:11:50,039 --> 00:11:52,720 three, but I have a feeling it's going to be four or more. 122 00:11:54,200 --> 00:12:01,879 But I'm going back to the origins of the belief in in alien visitors, 123 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:07,919 going back to the origins of euphology itself and finding out when we started believing 124 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:16,480 that the planet Earth could be visited from by creatures or beings from other planets, 125 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:24,480 and I show how this has evolved from very ancient times down towards well 126 00:12:24,799 --> 00:12:31,159 in medieval. In the medieval period, it was established that the plurality of 127 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:37,399 world's hypothesis, the idea that there could be more than one planet like ours 128 00:12:37,159 --> 00:12:43,360 with intelligent life on it, was established officially by the Catholic Church in the 129 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:50,200 year twelve seventy seven, and starting from that point onwards, it did open 130 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:58,679 up a kind of a gateway into new possibilities. Then, from the beginning 131 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:05,240 of the nineteenth century, what we find is people started speculating very seriously that 132 00:13:05,919 --> 00:13:13,320 pieces of other civilizations, and that's why the books called alien artifacts could reach 133 00:13:13,879 --> 00:13:20,159 the planet Earth. So by eighteen twenty three, for example, a writer, 134 00:13:20,799 --> 00:13:28,200 a French writer called Francois Chabrier, reached the conclusion that the asteroid belt 135 00:13:28,799 --> 00:13:35,799 had what was composed of pieces of a planet that had been destroyed in the 136 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:43,480 way that Krypton was destroyed in Superman stories, and that not only pieces of 137 00:13:43,519 --> 00:13:48,919 the planet, but also survivors from that planet had come to Earth, and 138 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:56,240 that's eighteen twenty three, So in that sense, twenty twenty three is the 139 00:13:56,279 --> 00:14:03,000 two hundredth anniversary of the ancient aliens hypothesis. But of course he also reached 140 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:07,960 the conclusion that they were humanoid, that they were sufficiently similar to us to 141 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:13,360 be able to interbreed with us to become our gods. We've all we've always 142 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:24,720 had this idea that ancient aliens or modern ones should be somewhat humanoid in appearance. 143 00:14:24,159 --> 00:14:30,200 I think it's I think it's because a lot of it's evolved from the 144 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:37,039 idea that if they were creations of God, then God created us in his 145 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:45,679 image, and therefore aliens would look to a to a considerable degree like ourselves. 146 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:52,879 Interesting, I never thought of that angle of it. How through throughout 147 00:14:52,960 --> 00:15:01,559 time you hear of, you know, different accounts, and indigenous of America, 148 00:15:01,399 --> 00:15:07,279 you hear of the Star people, and I do believe that I've heard 149 00:15:07,279 --> 00:15:13,200 that Aborigines had a similar type of thing that they would talk about. And 150 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,919 it's just as far as you know, in all your research that you've done, 151 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,559 do you think these accounts are basically worldwide that people have talked about these 152 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:30,960 type of things. Yeah, definitely. I've been researching folklore and mythology in 153 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,720 this way for I'm fifty two and i'd say that since I was about fourteen 154 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,440 fifteen, I've been collecting stories, so that's quite a long time. Yeah, 155 00:15:39,639 --> 00:15:46,320 definitely, we're talking about over I mean, I would say every single 156 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:52,919 country, every culture in the world has come to that conclusion sooner or later 157 00:15:52,080 --> 00:16:00,360 that we've been guided or visited or created by beings from the sky. And 158 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:08,679 the idea that the Aborigine is in Australia had that theory or had that belief 159 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:19,960 independently from from African communities and other cultures across the globe is fascinating. I 160 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,639 don't know whether that means that we're talking about a Jungian archetype, that we're 161 00:16:23,679 --> 00:16:32,399 looking always towards the sky for help and for some kind of answer, or 162 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:37,120 whether you know, something literally did come from the sky at some point. 163 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:45,519 But it's interesting that you mention Australia and the Aborigine is because in my book 164 00:16:45,639 --> 00:16:49,639 in Alien Artifacts, I have a whole chapter about Australia because there was a 165 00:16:49,679 --> 00:16:59,080 point in the nineteenth century where people reach the conclusion that Australian aborigine is and 166 00:16:59,159 --> 00:17:03,480 the whole continent itself could have come from outer space. There was a theory 167 00:17:03,519 --> 00:17:11,000 from the eighteen seventies onwards that maybe Australia had been an asteroid that had fallen 168 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,880 down from the sky into the Pacific Ocean, and that would explain why the 169 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:22,400 flora and fauna of that continent are so different from what you would find anywhere 170 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,200 else. And we're talking about a theory from one hundred and fifty years ago. 171 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:33,599 So we can see that this obsession with finding with looking for signs of 172 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:40,400 extraterrestrial contact has been with us for centuries and centuries. It's just that we've 173 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:45,119 collectively forgotten about it. Most people think that these theories and ideas originated in 174 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:51,039 the twentieth century, but the further you look back, the more you find 175 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:56,240 there was this. There's an old English story about the green Children of Woolpit, 176 00:17:56,839 --> 00:18:02,920 which is about I think it's a twelve or eleventh century story about these 177 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:08,519 green skin children who appear from nowhere. And there are some modern twentieth century 178 00:18:08,559 --> 00:18:14,440 books which Jack say Berzier, for example, mentions that maybe they came from 179 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:22,559 another planet, which seems like an amazing twentieth century idea looking at the ancient 180 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,960 past through sort of space age glasses. But in reality, if you go 181 00:18:27,079 --> 00:18:33,640 back to the sixteenth and seventeenth century, people already reached that conclusion. Six 182 00:18:33,759 --> 00:18:38,680 hundred years ago, people speculated that maybe these green skin children had come from 183 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:45,519 another planet. So, I mean, we haven't reinvented we haven't invented the 184 00:18:45,519 --> 00:18:52,279 wheel where we're just constantly reinventing it, right, you know, if it's 185 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:56,680 possible there the society out there is say a million years more advanced than us, 186 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:03,359 then you know, one of the discussions I've had with astronomers and people 187 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,279 of science, you know, they I'm sure you've heard this also many times 188 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,480 is that you know, they basically can't get there from here in any reasonable 189 00:19:11,519 --> 00:19:15,400 amount of time. And you know, I bring up, well, perhaps 190 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:21,000 there's some something in physics we haven't figured out yet that they have, you 191 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:25,279 know, And so but I think when the most recent person I had on 192 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,319 as I mentioned, was Adam Frank a few weeks ago, and you know, 193 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:33,079 he's you know, basically agreeing that it's a possibility they figured out how 194 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:41,039 to manipulate time space time, you know, for travel but it doesn't matter 195 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,960 if it was ancient in our times. These societies could be advanced, you 196 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:52,640 know, a million years ago. So as far as you know, what 197 00:19:52,759 --> 00:19:57,640 is the earliest account of, you know, someone claiming that we have been 198 00:19:57,759 --> 00:20:08,519 visited? Well, we have to distinguish between UFO reports and mythology or religious 199 00:20:08,559 --> 00:20:18,119 interpretations of strange phenomena in the sky and actual claims that UFOs have been seen 200 00:20:18,279 --> 00:20:22,599 or aliens have come here. So if we think about UFO reports, there 201 00:20:22,599 --> 00:20:30,359 are some Sumerian tablets which are interesting. They talk about omens. They mention 202 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:36,880 dark meteorites, for example, or meteors, which are very difficult to explain 203 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:41,400 because meteors are never dark. When you see one, that's always going to 204 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,839 be bright. So this kind of thing they do mention these Sumerian tablets, 205 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:52,039 I mean, we're talking about five thousand years ago, very unusual phenomena in 206 00:20:52,079 --> 00:20:57,279 the sky which were interpreted as omens. If that's classifiable as UFOs, I 207 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:04,240 don't know. In each too. There are very very few references to UFOs 208 00:21:04,319 --> 00:21:08,160 in ancient Egypt, very few in ancient Greece, but the ones that you 209 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:15,799 do find are certainly interesting and talk about lights behaving weirdly. Then, when 210 00:21:15,839 --> 00:21:22,519 we talk about, of course mythology and the idea that we are visited by 211 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,400 people from the Moon or from the planets, I mean we don't know how 212 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:33,440 far they go back, because our ancestors didn't leave a written record in most 213 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,640 cases, but we can at least push that back about four or five thousand 214 00:21:37,799 --> 00:21:44,559 years. Then, I mean, the story is about invasions from the Moon 215 00:21:45,039 --> 00:21:49,720 by moon people. We can even find a tenth century story about that, 216 00:21:49,880 --> 00:22:00,160 about how the Japanese emperor decided to fight a team of people from from space 217 00:22:02,319 --> 00:22:06,400 and lost because they of course had advanced technology. I've put that in the 218 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:11,599 book Alien Artifacts too. But then you get to the beginning of the nineteenth 219 00:22:11,599 --> 00:22:17,960 century, eighteen twenty three, as I said, the idea that our ancestors 220 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:22,039 could have come from another planet, so that could be included as a kind 221 00:22:22,039 --> 00:22:29,640 of UFO or alien contact. Then in eighteen fifty seven there was a book 222 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:36,279 published called The Magic Monitor, which talks about a small village in Ohio called 223 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:41,920 j which no longer exists, where the neighbors came out of their houses one 224 00:22:42,039 --> 00:22:48,799 day and saw a kind of weird ship sailing across the sky, crewed by 225 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:55,119 giant people who are obviously not from this Earth. And the writer in this 226 00:22:55,240 --> 00:23:00,599 case, a man called Monette, it's all in ancient alien alien artifacts to 227 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:08,160 so it's all in my book. He says that clearly they were a crew 228 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:18,519 of interplanetary explorers here on Earth, maybe looking to some kind of commercial opportunity 229 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,359 or to do scientific, scientific exploration. So that was night. That was 230 00:23:23,519 --> 00:23:30,160 eighteen fifty seven. And in fact, I went to Ohio about eight years 231 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:37,599 ago to look for that little village and I found it, and I've got 232 00:23:37,599 --> 00:23:41,880 some very nice pictures from that period. So there are lots of stories like 233 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:48,880 that. Another thing that I mentioned in my book is how from eighteen forty 234 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,039 seven onwards there are a lot of reports of weird objects falling from the sky. 235 00:23:53,559 --> 00:24:00,480 Some of them obviously are hoaxes, but many of them were meteorites covered 236 00:24:00,519 --> 00:24:07,599 in hieroglyphics, meteorites containing weird objects. There's even the tale of a giant 237 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:15,839 meteorite that contained a Martian mummy inside. Even when we even when these are 238 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:22,279 hoaxes from that period, they're very valuable because they show us that people were 239 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:30,519 ready to accept the possibility that we were being visited by by extraterrestrials. Wow, 240 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:36,279 that's interesting. Yeah, I read a little bit about that, whatever 241 00:24:36,319 --> 00:24:41,000 it was, the hoax with the hieroglyphics, that was very interesting. So, 242 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:45,880 you know, when you think about the modern UFO era nineteen forty seven 243 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:52,000 forward and then it's spotty before that, but there's pretty consistent reports, but 244 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:57,039 nothing like after nineteen forty seven. And I remember Stanton Freeman used to always 245 00:24:57,079 --> 00:25:06,079 say it was he kind of thought that the contributing factor to that was that, 246 00:25:06,279 --> 00:25:07,880 in his words, the kids found the matches. In other words, 247 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:12,319 we found you know, nuclear weapons, nuclear power, all that. But 248 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:19,480 what is what is your thoughts as far as you know why everything increased starting 249 00:25:19,519 --> 00:25:26,960 in that that era nineteen forty seven and not so much before. Well, 250 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:32,559 firstly, it wouldn't be really true to say that there haven't been periods of 251 00:25:33,039 --> 00:25:41,000 UFO waves and UFO flaps before nineteen forty seven, because there were mysterious balloon 252 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,599 sightings in the eighteen eighties. You have the eighteen ninety six to ninety seven 253 00:25:47,039 --> 00:25:51,759 airship wave, in which you have literally one hundreds, if not thousands of 254 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,720 sightings in a very very short period of time, many of which didn't look 255 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:03,160 like a wooden boat with masts and sails, which is something that many modern 256 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:08,680 writers believe that the airship wave consisted of. There were just lights in the 257 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,440 same way that they are today, and that really took off at that in 258 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:18,599 that period. Then when you get to I mean, then there were several 259 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:25,400 decades of intense UFO activity in that sense. Then when you get to nineteen 260 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:30,480 forty six, October nineteen forty six, that for me really marks the beginning 261 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:37,279 of the UFO phenomenon, even though there was a gap between that case and 262 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:44,039 Kenneth Arnold's sighting on the twenty fourth of June nineteen forty seven. In October 263 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,599 nineteen forty six, people in San Diego. In San Diego saw a bullet 264 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:56,880 shaped object flying in the sky, and this caused such a stir, such 265 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:04,599 an uproar that newpaper headlines were full of things like alien spaceship scene flying over 266 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:11,000 San Diego, extraterrestrial seen in our skies. And that was just a few 267 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,519 months before Kenneth Arnold. And the point is that at that time people were 268 00:27:15,759 --> 00:27:22,839 more than ready to accept the possibility of alien visits. Then what happened after 269 00:27:22,079 --> 00:27:33,440 June the twenty fourth is that people originally didn't associate flying saucers with alien spaceships. 270 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,680 That was just one theory at that time, and if you look at 271 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:42,960 the reports, a lot of them have absolutely nothing to do with modern UFOs, 272 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,920 many of them because of the word saucer. Many of them were just 273 00:27:48,279 --> 00:27:55,599 very small, like sort of coaster or literally saucer shaped and saucer sized sized 274 00:27:55,640 --> 00:28:03,519 objects. Many of the sightings that began the nineteen forty seven wave just not 275 00:28:03,599 --> 00:28:07,720 related to UFOs at all, and many of them were hoaxes too. But 276 00:28:07,799 --> 00:28:15,880 what this did was to elevate the status of UFO sightings and possible alien visits 277 00:28:17,319 --> 00:28:22,200 to a sort of celebrity status. It encouraged people to go out and look 278 00:28:22,279 --> 00:28:30,039 up in the sky and report what they'd seen, because for decades nobody did 279 00:28:30,079 --> 00:28:33,720 that. If you saw a strange thing in the sky, people would not 280 00:28:33,799 --> 00:28:37,720 have believed you. Scientists wouldn't have reported it some of the time because that 281 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:44,799 was highly ridiculed. It would have been ridiculed in academic circles. Most normal 282 00:28:44,839 --> 00:28:51,839 people didn't report it. That was also a time when the belief in the 283 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,759 supernatural was quite was quite powerful, So if you saw a weird thing in 284 00:28:56,799 --> 00:29:00,880 the sky, maybe it meant that your uncle, or your grandfather or your 285 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:06,960 mother was going to die. That's the kind of superstition that existed at the 286 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:11,200 time. It was called token phenomena, And there are hundreds and hundreds of 287 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:18,519 sightings that never went reported formally because they were considered supernatural. Then what happened 288 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:25,640 was when it became socially acceptable to say that you'd seen a flying saucer, 289 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,759 everyone went out and reported the weird lights that they saw. This is exactly 290 00:29:30,799 --> 00:29:34,240 the same thing as what happened in the airship wave of nineteen ninety eighteen ninety 291 00:29:34,279 --> 00:29:40,160 seven. When it became socially acceptable to say that you'd seen a weird object 292 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:45,519 in the sky, then you had more reports of them because nobody feared being 293 00:29:47,079 --> 00:29:52,920 ridiculed or mocked. So that's the first explanation really of why it became so 294 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:59,759 important. But it's not true that there weren't UFO reports from before that. 295 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:07,640 It's simply that until recently, relatively recently, through research groups like my own 296 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:14,599 called Magonia Exchange, which anyone, if anyone's listening, they can join freely. 297 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:22,880 It's a group in which about one hundred of US exchange cases that we 298 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:30,319 find from the historical records, we've shown that the history of UFO sightings is 299 00:30:30,759 --> 00:30:34,920 much longer, much more interesting than what, for example, Stanton Friedman would 300 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:44,480 have known at the time. So I was not familiar with the fact that 301 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,920 those what did they call them, the ships, the ghost ships or whatever 302 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:55,920 they call them in the airship Wave. I do remember thinking, well, 303 00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,400 that's odd that it was a ship with a mask. But you're saying that 304 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,680 that was because I read something a clip or something somewhere that someone wrote in 305 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,799 a newspaper that it was like a wooden ship, you know, with mass 306 00:31:07,839 --> 00:31:14,680 and everything. But that was just confabulated from their stories. Is that, 307 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,039 well, you know these guys these days, you're going to find flying saucer 308 00:31:18,039 --> 00:31:26,279 and UFO stories, particularly from the nineteen forties onwards, about weird discs with 309 00:31:26,359 --> 00:31:30,920 antenna and all kinds of things that people made up. And those are the 310 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:37,000 ones that those are the stories that got the most attention because they were so 311 00:31:37,319 --> 00:31:41,880 silly or so eccentric or so whatever, very extravagant. During the air Shipwave, 312 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,680 the same thing happened. The stories that got the most attention were the 313 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:52,319 ones that seemed the most impossible. So again through the nineteen seventies, eighties, 314 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,480 and nineties, anyone writing about the air ship waves would have reached the 315 00:31:56,519 --> 00:32:01,440 conclusion that most of them were that they looked like wooden ships with masts and 316 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:09,039 oars and whatever, and that has nothing to do with UFOs. But nowadays, 317 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:15,119 I mean, I bought a book around the nineteen ninety eight I think 318 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,720 it was about the air ship wave, and it included about two hundred and 319 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,160 fifty cases, which seemed impressive at the time. But right now I've got 320 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:30,839 nine five hundred cuttings from just from the eighteen ninety six and eighteen ninety seven. 321 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,920 So now that we have a lot more information, I can tell you 322 00:32:36,039 --> 00:32:39,000 that the air ship waves were a lot more interesting. That's going to be 323 00:32:39,359 --> 00:32:45,559 volume three of my Alien Artifact series. Volume two is going to come out 324 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,759 in a month or so, and then it's going to be volume three. 325 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:57,640 Now, when you mentioned earlier the San Diego bullet shaped type of craft or 326 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:04,079 whatever it was, that kind of reminded me of Also the ghost rock rocket 327 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:09,279 flap in Sweden during nineteen forty six. Was it a similar type of an 328 00:33:09,319 --> 00:33:16,920 account? Not really, no, because the ghost rockets were basically sort of 329 00:33:17,039 --> 00:33:23,960 rocket type things, and they were confused also with meteors, and they were 330 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:29,519 fast moving. The reason that they were called rockets was because they were pretty 331 00:33:29,559 --> 00:33:36,440 fast moving and they just seemed to be some kind of wartime technology. But 332 00:33:36,599 --> 00:33:44,400 the object that was floating allegedly above San Diego was just motionless in the sky. 333 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:51,960 Then it became even more interesting as a story because a medium called Mark 334 00:33:52,079 --> 00:34:00,920 Probert entered into communication allegedly with the crew aboard the weird thing, and they 335 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:07,079 said, yeah, it's a spaceship and we'd like to meet with your leaders 336 00:34:07,079 --> 00:34:09,719 and this kind of stuff. I mean, it's a more complicated story, 337 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:16,199 but the fact is that it appeared in headlines across the United States in October 338 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:22,719 nineteen forty six. So I just think that that should have started the UFO 339 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:29,199 wave, or there'd been many previous triggers. I mean, if you go 340 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:34,840 back to I believe it was nineteen twenty six or twenty four, there was 341 00:34:35,119 --> 00:34:44,239 a farmer who said that he'd found the skull of an alien whose ship had 342 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:52,320 obviously exploded above the atmosphere, and he got together a group of neighbors so 343 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:57,840 they could find the rest of the alien body and the remains of the ship, 344 00:34:58,159 --> 00:35:01,480 and there was so much of this going on throughout the nineteen tens, 345 00:35:01,599 --> 00:35:07,960 twenties, thirties, but it was just forgotten about during the war period, 346 00:35:07,599 --> 00:35:15,800 World War Two, and it seemed like something totally new when nineteen forty seven's 347 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:23,800 sightings came around. I'm sharing your I should be sharing there is this is 348 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:30,760 your the website you mentioned Magagonia Exchange where you can join for free. I 349 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:36,559 will have that linked in the show notes and also in the text for the 350 00:35:36,599 --> 00:35:39,719 show. I've seen this one before, the Battle in the Sky? I 351 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:45,960 can't remember. Was it Germany? Was there about the picture on the crest 352 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:50,719 of it that you have here on the top of the website. What was 353 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,800 that battle when all these people saw the Battle in the sky And I remember 354 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:59,199 correct how that was. If I remember correctly, that was Nuremberg, I'd 355 00:35:59,199 --> 00:36:01,960 have to look that up that I have several of those, but yeah, 356 00:36:02,559 --> 00:36:09,199 there were so many of those. The problem really is that the Internet is 357 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:16,880 the main source where people get their information about what happened before nineteen forty seven. 358 00:36:17,639 --> 00:36:24,079 But obviously there aren't too many pictures from that period. I mean, 359 00:36:24,159 --> 00:36:31,239 photography didn't really exist before eighteen forty. Not everybody I mean newspapers didn't didn't 360 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:37,440 publish photos, drawings, or sketches of most of the things that they reported. 361 00:36:37,119 --> 00:36:43,480 And we live today in a very visual culture. I mean, people 362 00:36:43,559 --> 00:36:52,559 are very interested in sort of graphic representations of things. So what that means 363 00:36:52,679 --> 00:36:59,880 is that to sell the idea that aliens visited us in the past, you 364 00:37:00,159 --> 00:37:05,880 have to present like cave paintings, religious paintings, and so on. But 365 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:12,920 that means that people are missing out on all of the fascinating stories and texts 366 00:37:13,159 --> 00:37:22,199 about cases that happened, you know, before that period. So what I'm 367 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:27,960 trying to do in all my books now is to is to add a lot 368 00:37:28,039 --> 00:37:32,480 of pictures, drawing, some of which I'm using artificial intelligence to create, 369 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:38,559 but to represent what our ancestors saw in the sky, because there just isn't 370 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:46,119 enough visual stimulus for a lot of people to get excited about. One thing 371 00:37:46,119 --> 00:37:52,000 that I do mention in my book on sources, This is called Sources, 372 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,239 but this is the Spanish version. I don't know where my English version is 373 00:37:54,639 --> 00:37:59,880 left it somewhere, but what I do here in one of the last chapters, 374 00:38:00,119 --> 00:38:07,400 I talk about how we've got to be very careful with cave paintings, 375 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:13,800 religious paintings, sculptures, Mayan sculptures, Aztec sculptures of flying sources, which 376 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,280 is something that is very popular these days on the internet. But in fact, 377 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:23,079 most of it's just fake. Most of it's just not true. I 378 00:38:23,079 --> 00:38:25,760 think one hundred percent of it isn't true, to be honest with you, 379 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:34,960 and it's unfortunate, but it's just that people just want to invent this glorious 380 00:38:35,639 --> 00:38:40,480 visual past. And these days nobody reads books as much as they used to, 381 00:38:42,119 --> 00:38:45,800 and a lot of the information you're not going to get without reading proper 382 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:51,480 texts. So anyway, what I try to do. All of the books 383 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:58,360 that I published these days are just totally full of graphic representations of what happened, 384 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:02,400 and I tried to make it as entertaining as possible anyway for modern readers, 385 00:39:02,679 --> 00:39:07,440 because young young people today, without wanting to offend anybody, they just 386 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:14,039 don't read as much as as we did thirty years ago, unfortunately. So 387 00:39:14,639 --> 00:39:22,559 that's right, you know, there's a there's along those lines. I know 388 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:28,199 that when I was first looking into this topic, I read something somewhere well 389 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,880 Alexander the Great how to UFO Sighting, and then I go, oh, 390 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:36,400 so when I started to research that, I realized that that only that was 391 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,280 in a novel in nineteen fifty two, and it goes no further back, 392 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:44,559 so you know what I mean. So that that's it doesn't necessarily have to 393 00:39:44,599 --> 00:39:50,559 mean that it's a contemporary hoax or whatever it is, or fable of some 394 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,800 kind. These things just get carried on from whenever they're created. So how 395 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:59,719 do you find your You know, you talk a lot about text and that 396 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:04,119 that's really interesting. You dive right in deep for reading in text. But 397 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,239 do you actually go to like libraries as well, or you know, you 398 00:40:07,639 --> 00:40:13,920 mentioned those nine thousand clip clippings or whatever. Is that all through like microfiche 399 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,880 searchers it all online that you do? Well? Yeah, I used to 400 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:23,480 depend on visits to libraries, which is something that I did when I was 401 00:40:23,519 --> 00:40:29,000 in the States for the first time in nineteen ninety when I was eighteen. 402 00:40:30,559 --> 00:40:35,280 I used to spend most of my time playing truant from school and just going 403 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:42,320 to the university library with a pen and notepad and whatever, or taking photocopies. 404 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,280 These days, everything's changed, and this is the wonderful thing, and 405 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:52,079 this is why we can expect a massive revolution in eupology over the next few 406 00:40:52,119 --> 00:40:59,679 years, because you can access literally billions of articles, but I mean hundreds 407 00:40:59,679 --> 00:41:06,199 of millions of pages of newspaper text online. Some of them you have to 408 00:41:06,199 --> 00:41:08,519 pay for, some of them are completely free. So for example, I 409 00:41:08,639 --> 00:41:16,599 use newspapers dot com, which has again literally billions of articles going back to 410 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:24,280 the eighteenth center I think in English. And another one is newspaper archive dot 411 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:30,320 com. It's equally massive. Then there are many which are completely free, 412 00:41:30,559 --> 00:41:34,039 and you can do word search is just as you do in Google, but 413 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:39,880 within these these massive libraries of information, so you don't need to physically go 414 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:45,840 to a library anymore. Even so, I do sometimes have to buy books, 415 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:54,000 So just last week I ordered a book from a bookshop in the States, 416 00:41:55,119 --> 00:42:00,199 which has cost me one hundred and forty dollars. I believe, I'm 417 00:42:00,199 --> 00:42:04,920 hoping it's going to arrive very soon and it's going to be another important part 418 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:09,880 of the of the puzzle. So the information can come from anywhere, anywhere. 419 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:16,519 Anyone who wants to join Magonia Exchange can very easily find new cases to 420 00:42:16,599 --> 00:42:20,920 share, and we can tell you where to go, and you don't need 421 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:23,800 to spend any money honestly, a lot of these, A lot of the 422 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:30,400 major libraries these days have digitalized all of their books, and Google Books is 423 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:36,760 a fantastic place too to find historical cases. And it's only when you have 424 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:42,119 literally thousands and thousands and thousands of cases that you can start seeing patterns in 425 00:42:42,159 --> 00:42:50,000 the data. Magonia Exchange has a round between forty and fifty thousand cuttings altogether 426 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,360 in the archives. And I mean, when I did this Wonders in the 427 00:42:54,400 --> 00:43:01,119 Sky with Jacques Valet, then I have this edition here, which is this 428 00:43:01,639 --> 00:43:07,679 massive hardback edition because we needed to re edit it because that particular book had 429 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,039 mistakes in it, had problems with it. But of course it did. 430 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:17,800 Shortly after publishing it, there was this massive digital explosion and we had access 431 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:22,519 to better sources. But the point is that this catalog here is based on 432 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:31,400 sifting through hundreds and thousands of historical reports. So it's something that I'll continue 433 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:37,360 doing in the future. Jacques Valet wants me to continue writing with him and 434 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:42,840 do a sequel to Wonders in the Sky over the next year. Let's see 435 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,400 if we have time to do it. Yeah, I mean, it sounds 436 00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:50,320 like it takes a lot of time to do what you're doing here. It's 437 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:52,760 not something you can I mean when you say a year, it seems like 438 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:58,360 that research would take like ten years together or something like that. In that 439 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,199 particular book, how long would you say that you did research for it? 440 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:09,159 Well, this particular version of the book was probably based on the first version, 441 00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:15,360 which it was about fifteen years maybe, but this one here was like 442 00:44:15,639 --> 00:44:22,679 three or four years later and full of corrections and things. But for example, 443 00:44:22,159 --> 00:44:27,239 this book here, I started around nineteen ninety eight, but I mean 444 00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,920 it is going to be several volumes. Fortunately, these days, with artificial 445 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:37,239 intelligence, you can organize information, look for patterns in the data, and 446 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:44,960 do wonderful things that we couldn't even do twelve months ago. So I'm looking 447 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:52,800 forward to spending Christmas getting up to date on AI and putting it to good 448 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:57,320 use to organize this data. So basically, what I'm saying is that what 449 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:05,000 would have taken me fifteen or twenty years several years ago these days would probably 450 00:45:05,039 --> 00:45:08,119 take about six months or less. But it's not it's not the not the 451 00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:14,320 data that's the problem. It's knowing how it all fits in together. Because 452 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:20,840 most ufologists don't really have an idea about the chronology the timeline of all of 453 00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:27,079 this. When I speak to UFO enthusiasts, they say, yeah, what 454 00:45:27,079 --> 00:45:30,480 whatever happened today? Then they go back to Kenneth Arnold, then they'll jump 455 00:45:30,519 --> 00:45:35,639 back to the airship wave, and then they go back to ancient to ancient 456 00:45:35,679 --> 00:45:39,840 Egypt, and they have no idea what happened in the intervening time, which 457 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:45,639 is why I'm writing this book series. So it isn't it isn't the amount 458 00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:50,480 of time this is going to take to organize. Now, it's more the 459 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:57,039 the that you need a sort of historical framework in your mind in which to 460 00:45:57,119 --> 00:46:01,360 fit the pieces. Yeah, that's I love the work you're doing. It's 461 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:07,679 just it's just great. Going back to this book we have about uh wait 462 00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,760 a minute, it's not showing here. Hmm, okay, it says it's 463 00:46:12,159 --> 00:46:16,360 up. But the book we hit there goes uh Saucers tracing the origins of 464 00:46:16,679 --> 00:46:22,440 the disc shape UFO. So that book there we have about let's see, 465 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:27,679 we have about seven or eight minutes left here, so I and I thought 466 00:46:27,679 --> 00:46:30,800 we could talk a little bit about this book in particular, which you also 467 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:36,039 released a last September. I'm very interested in that. The Ufo sighting I 468 00:46:36,039 --> 00:46:39,519 had was I guess you'd call it a disc or saucer shaped. But there 469 00:46:39,519 --> 00:46:44,199 are early accounts. Obviously, there's you know, carvings, you see an 470 00:46:44,199 --> 00:46:49,599 ancient you know, ancient carvings that show like a disc shaped type of thing. 471 00:46:49,679 --> 00:46:52,719 Whether you know, I mean, whether they were depicting what they saw 472 00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:54,880 in the sky or not, I don't know. But what are some of 473 00:46:54,880 --> 00:47:00,880 the early accounts of people seeing you know, saucer shaped at Okay, So 474 00:47:01,119 --> 00:47:09,239 in this book, I've dedicated four chapters to historical accounts. So I have 475 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:15,599 two which are not source of shaped, and then I have two which are 476 00:47:15,039 --> 00:47:22,360 circular sources ring shaped and so on. Well, you can go back to 477 00:47:23,159 --> 00:47:30,079 the eighteenth century. You can find stories of people who saw objects like a 478 00:47:30,119 --> 00:47:37,440 grindstone which is around like a thick wheel in the sky. There are cases 479 00:47:37,519 --> 00:47:44,639 in which people compared the phenomena that they saw with coins. For example, 480 00:47:45,679 --> 00:47:51,639 there's a very nice case from the seventeenth century of an object that they compared 481 00:47:51,679 --> 00:47:55,519 with a hat but around sort of disc shaped hat. And there's actually a 482 00:47:55,559 --> 00:48:00,920 picture of it too, which I've put in the book. And yeah, 483 00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:05,199 I mean there are but the point that I make in this book, however, 484 00:48:05,519 --> 00:48:09,400 is that we shouldn't be too fixated on disc shapes. It doesn't mean 485 00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:14,880 they don't exist, but it means that we have to be more aware that 486 00:48:15,639 --> 00:48:20,880 UFOs can take on a lot of different shapes. In fact, if you 487 00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:25,880 look at the databases, the biggest databases that have ever been made about UFO 488 00:48:27,039 --> 00:48:32,239 sightings, normally discs are about two percent. That means ninety eight percent of 489 00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:38,480 UFOs and not disc shaped at all. If you look back before nineteen forty 490 00:48:38,559 --> 00:48:45,840 seven, you find that I calculated it as zero point zero zero two percent 491 00:48:45,559 --> 00:48:51,760 of all UFOs were disc shaped and all the rest were other shapes. And 492 00:48:52,079 --> 00:48:59,760 if you look at modern UFO databases and catalogs, the discs have practically disappeared 493 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:04,800 completely, which is why you don't find YouTube videos of discs. Normally, 494 00:49:05,119 --> 00:49:10,480 you don't find good photographs of discs. Generally speaking, none of the videos 495 00:49:10,519 --> 00:49:17,440 that you see that the military releases show anything resembling a disc shape. And 496 00:49:19,159 --> 00:49:24,039 this is just a reality that we have to accept. So that's an important 497 00:49:24,079 --> 00:49:32,199 point that I make. Why why do we consider disc shaped objects represent the 498 00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:40,679 UFO phenomenon If such a tiny percentage of cases actually involve discs. I mean, 499 00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:45,039 the fact is, I've had to put a saucer on this book, 500 00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:51,800 and it's a kind of signal to everybody this is about alien spaceships or something 501 00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,360 like that, because everyone knows what this is. But in reality, this, 502 00:49:55,679 --> 00:49:59,800 as I said, ninety eight percent of UFOs don't look like this. 503 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:05,360 In fact, I know the introduction to your program has a disc shaped to 504 00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:09,719 UFOs. I know that it's it's the most common picture that we find on 505 00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:16,159 t shirts and postcards and posters and Fox Mulder's poster behind him. I want 506 00:50:16,159 --> 00:50:22,000 to believe it's all about disc shaped UFOs, but then the number of cases 507 00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:29,800 show that it's it's a very, very very small fraction of the total number 508 00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:34,119 of UFO sighting. So I explore that in this book for the first time. 509 00:50:34,199 --> 00:50:38,039 No one's ever ever done that, and it's had different reactions. Some 510 00:50:38,039 --> 00:50:42,880 people have been really annoyed, that's that can't be true, that's not true, 511 00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,079 and whatever, But it just is, this is the way it is, 512 00:50:46,119 --> 00:50:51,199 and some people just accept it and they say, well, obviously something 513 00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:54,360 with something's going on that we didn't realize. And I don't know, it's 514 00:50:54,519 --> 00:50:59,679 just I think that we've been fixating on the wrong shape. It doesn't mean 515 00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:05,360 what you saw was not a disc shaped UFO. It just means that you 516 00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:09,760 are probably very lucky you should buy a lottery ticket because you should have on 517 00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:16,679 that day, particularly because it's such a tiny fraction of cases. So also, 518 00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:21,679 what that book does is that it explores the life of Kenneth Arnold. 519 00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:30,679 It talks about his other UFO sightings that people never mention. I was discussing 520 00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:35,119 all of this with Kim Arnold, his daughter while I was researching for it, 521 00:51:35,159 --> 00:51:42,079 also with Chanel, his granddaughter. Very nice people, and yeah, 522 00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:45,360 I go into areas that have never been explored before. For example, I 523 00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:50,599 talk about the origin of the expression flying saucer, which most dictionaries will tell 524 00:51:50,639 --> 00:51:54,199 you was invented in nineteen forty seven. But what I've done is I've shown 525 00:51:54,239 --> 00:52:00,559 that it comes from around eighteen eighty eighteen eighty one, and the Oxford English 526 00:52:00,599 --> 00:52:07,239 Dictionary has contacted me to tell me that they're going to use my findings to 527 00:52:07,559 --> 00:52:15,039 update the next edition of the Oxford English Dictionary using this book because I've managed 528 00:52:15,079 --> 00:52:20,480 to push it back about sixty years. It's actually very interesting because you can 529 00:52:20,559 --> 00:52:30,079 find the US military using the term flying saucer during its operations in the mid 530 00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:35,119 nineteen forties in a different context, but the point is that they were using 531 00:52:35,199 --> 00:52:43,159 the expression flying saucer. So when Kenneth Arnold said that he'd seen nine weird 532 00:52:43,199 --> 00:52:46,800 objects in the sky, and everyone called them flying sauces, it was a 533 00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:52,599 term that was extremely popular at the time. Hundreds of thousands of people who 534 00:52:52,599 --> 00:52:59,920 picked up the newspaper and read that a guy in Idaho had seen flying saucers, 535 00:53:00,679 --> 00:53:02,920 they already knew the term. It was a common expression. And that's 536 00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:07,800 something that we've forgotten about. Very very interesting, I know it would be. 537 00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:13,639 So if you had to go through I don't know if you've ever done 538 00:53:13,679 --> 00:53:16,800 this type of concept, but if you go through time, what would you 539 00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:23,639 say, is the most common shape? All the spheres? Very very common. 540 00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:30,559 Sphere is the most common shape. I would say anything anything like bubbles 541 00:53:30,599 --> 00:53:42,000 and spheres. I did a study with a British scientist meteorologist uthologists called Martin 542 00:53:42,159 --> 00:53:46,679 Schoff, and we published a book called Return to Magonia, which is this 543 00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:54,000 one here through published through Anomalist and together we did a we made a catalog 544 00:53:54,239 --> 00:54:00,840 of cases which we called solar bubbles, because there's this interesting path of UFO 545 00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:07,639 sightings that seem to be about luminous bubble like phenomena. I mean what it 546 00:54:07,679 --> 00:54:09,840 means, I don't know. We just tell people what we find, you 547 00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:15,800 know, So there was a lot of that. I mean, I think 548 00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:21,320 that the main thing is that anyone interested, I mean seriously interested in UFOs 549 00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:23,760 and they want to know where all of this has come from, they really 550 00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:30,639 need to pick up a book about UFO history. And unfortunately, the only 551 00:54:30,679 --> 00:54:34,760 one that I can recommend to them is my own, simply because I'm the 552 00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:37,239 first person to put all this together. I really wish that there were more 553 00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:42,559 books around. You just can't trust most of them. The thing is, 554 00:54:42,559 --> 00:54:47,360 a lot of authors make a living from this and I don't, which means 555 00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:52,519 that I'm freer to just report what I find. And a lot of writers 556 00:54:52,639 --> 00:54:58,199 just tried to prolong the mystery, you know, for monetary gain. So 557 00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:02,840 you just need to know what books to look for. Well, I really 558 00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:07,480 do appreciate your work, and thank you so much. And we're out of 559 00:55:07,519 --> 00:55:10,519 time, so I really appreciate it, and you take care and I will 560 00:55:10,559 --> 00:55:15,400 link the website and your books and all that in the show. Notes and 561 00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:20,119 everything. Thank you, it's being a pleasure. Yeah, all right, 562 00:55:20,599 --> 00:55:22,679 okay everyone, So we'll be back next week on the twenty six