WEBVTT

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Well, whiskey coming thing, my
pain, moneys a ray, Why don't

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you let me? From power Line
blog dot com and produced by Ricochet dot

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Com, this is the three Whiskey
Happy Hour with your bartenders Steve Hayward,

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John You, and power Lines International
Woman of Mystery Lucretia. Have you gotta

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giving? Let that whiskey float when
you're being in loud, down and load.

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We welcome back everybody to the three
Whiskey Happy Hour where you're all still

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I'm sure recovering from last week's cage
match. People are fanning themselves. They're

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fanning themselves after they fainted watching all
the blood and gore and neo conservative winning

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again. You did have a couple
of people who took your side, John,

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but it was probably something like one
to ten. Yeah, well,

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you know, and those are people
that Lucretia calls losers, right, I

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call them losers. I don't even
call John a loser. He's just wrong.

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But I still love it. Well, look, let me say this,

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John, A lot has happened in
the last week since we recorded that,

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and I think we ought to return
to it, but we missed so

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many other stories, which which you
I think was what's on your mind.

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So we'll just let's mention to listeners
that we will do cage Match too,

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Rumble in the not Rumble the Jungle, I know something probably next week maybe,

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I think, Yeah, it's a
holiday special, just like they have

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the Cowboys and the Detroit Lions play
on Thanksgiving. It's going to be New

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Conservative versus whatever Lucretia is for a
Christmas time. Please tell me I at

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least get to comment on the wonder
of Congress not voting any more money for

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Ukraine. I think that was really
great, by the way, or at

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least leaving town without voting any more
money for Ukraine. Well, yeah,

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there's all that. I'll leave it
aside for now. But that, and

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you know, January sixth looks like
some of those court cases you're going to

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talk about this John, are going
to fall apart. So it just looks

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like everything's turning the direction of Lucretia
on this team. Lucretia will be happy,

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all right, John, Well,
let's see wait a minute before we

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get going though, John, can
I first of all, I think we

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ought to give a little bit of
a clarification for listeners. Our last several

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episodes have begun with conversations about breakfast
meets. And there's a reason for that.

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You know. This is the three
Whiskey happy hour. And normally,

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when things are going right, we
record on a Friday evening with Whiskey and

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that's when we give our whiskey reviews. But because of our unusual schedules,

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we're often having record in the morning, as this week, and so that's

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a little too early for whiskey.
But of course it's prime time for or

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you breakfast sandwiches and John. You
know, I'm working on an article for

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the Journal of Spurious Correlations about the
fact that you have left the conm us

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again. You're in Hawaii this week. Tough life you have, and what

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you told me in a text that
there were no mcribs at the McDonald's that

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you patronized in Hawaii, And sure
enough, McDonald's stock is way off this

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week in the middle of a huge
stock market rally, and it's your fault,

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that's all I'm going to say.
Well, you and I are both

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long term holders of the stock.
So I'm running the shock because I went.

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I actually walked by the McDonald's on
Wikiki Beach. I couldn't stop I

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keep going. I had to stop
and go in and I tried to use

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the app and it's it's a McRib
out. But maybe it means that McRib

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is sold out. Maybe not just
not available, but sold out. Who

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knows. Yeah, we think they'd
have it there. You think it'd be

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popular. I hate the people love
pork products here. Yeah, I already

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had sweet pineapple. You don't.
You don't like them? Should be looking

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for? Is spam with subie?
This is? This is I've already had

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three of them. I think this
should be the next edition to the McDonald's

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menu for its quest for world domination. It's sushi, but instead of raw

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fish on top of the rice,
they put a slice of spam. Oh

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it's so man. And then there's
also the other thing you only get here,

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kimchi fried rice with spam. It's
heavenly. I don't want to leave.

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Yeah, all right, well,
speaking of deep kimchi, John,

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but you've got a whole bunch of
nasty stories tea that for us today,

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right, that we've neglected. But
like kimchi, it is good for you.

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Eat it you can stand the smell
exactly like the stories we have today.

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I mean, as he said Stephen
Lucretia. A lot has happened in

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the last week, so we've got
a number of stories to talk about.

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The first first one is the growing
involvement of the Supreme Court in the January

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six cases. Two things happened this
week, momentous things, I mean really.

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One is Jack Smith, the special
counsel who's prosecuting Donald Trump for his

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alleged involvement in the January six attack
on the Capitol and, according to him,

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his effort to stop the peaceful transfer
of power. He called it that

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in his papers today this week asked
the Supreme Court in an emergency petition to

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seize the case up out of the
trial court where Judge Chuckkin has just denied

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President Trump's quest for immunity, and
so you must decide this. This is

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just like the Watergate tapes case.
The Supreme Court must seize this case,

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skip over the normal procedures and levels
of appeal, take the case and immediately

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deny Donald Trump's quest for immunity so
that we can get this trial going.

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And then at the same time,
the court just granted cerp just decided it's

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going to hear the case involving several
January sixth defendants about whether their conduct actually

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violated federal law at all. The
statute they've been prosecuted under is the same

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one that Jack Smith is using against
Donald Trump, and it claims that they

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have obstructed Congress. This is not
a crime. Yeah, there's not a

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crime. That appeared until two thousand
and one in the Dodd Frank Bill,

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and everyone at the time thought that
statute has to do with destroying documents,

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preventing witnesses and so on from appearing
in congressional hearings and investigations. So this

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is really interesting. I went and
looked at the facts. The person who

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brought the case as a person named
Fisher who's been prosecuted along with several others,

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and he brought the case based what's
called informal pauperis. He was so

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poor, it was like he wrote
it himself. It was it's like,

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you know, look out of the
movies like this guyon Trumpet. Yeah,

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exactly, like Gideon versus Ring Ring. He did it himself basically, and

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the court granted it. It's really
interesting, but this raises the possibility that

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the court could hear case this upcoming
term that knocks out one of the three

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charges being brought against Donald Trump.
So either way, the Supreme Court has

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now even though you know they're like
Michael Corleoni and Godfather three, every time

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he tries to get out, they
pull it back in. And then what

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I had a question for you lost
little Supreme Court tidbit that we could get

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to this later is there's a big
story out in the New York Times this

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morning about the inside scoop on Dobbs, and so we'll get to that.

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Oh I missed this. There's a
few tidbits in there that are worth talking

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about. But Lucretia, what do
you think about Jack? I have a

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question for you. I don't remember
who said it were I read it,

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but it was basically that the Justice
Department totally screwed up by appealing fishers.

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Whatever happened in the courts below,
that it's very likely that the Supreme Court

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is going to say, no,
this law was never intended to be used

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the way it was used for these
people. That had they not done that,

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the Supreme Court might have very well
stayed out of the question because it

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does involve them getting involved yet again
in Trump's politics. But in this case

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they could make a ruling and claim
that the ruling is across the board for

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anybody currently convicted of the destruction of
official proceedings or whatever the heck it is

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obstruction, and that it was a
really big mistake on the part of the

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Justice Department to appeal that case.
Does that make sense? Yeah, you

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could say maybe the Justice Department overcharged
because they could have just gone after people

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for trespassing, for being where they're
not supposed to being in an unauthorized place.

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But if you try to use this
law, which clearly was not written

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with this in mind, they went
too far. Well, but that's actually

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not prodized as the prosecutions. That's
not my question. My question is why

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did the Justice Department itself appeal that
case? Oh? No, so in

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the Fisher cases, in the January
sixth cases, the defendants appealed. It's

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in January. The emergency appeal on
the Trump case, yes, was brought

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by the Justice Department, And that
is really unusual. In fact, I

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think the only other time it's really
happened was the Watergate tapes case with Nixon.

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Because the normal course would be Trump
shit appeal right, Trump lost,

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Trump wants immunity. Judge chunkin chuck
in deny. He lost, and now

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the case is going in the normal
course up to the next appeals court,

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which is called the DC Circuit.
And so, yes, Lucreatius completely right.

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The Justice Department might have brought this
on itself by appealing early, which

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is not what you're normally supposed to
do. I mean, usually you should

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just let now the you know what
the smith says is. But if we

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had to wait around for the appeals
court and then Trump lost to say,

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and then he has to appeal the
Supreme Court, that could take way too

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long. It could take into twenty
twenty five. We all right, So

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I was going to bring up in
the in our cage match overtime one particular

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point that will not involve reopening all
the major points, but interfering with the

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official business of Congress or whatever the
exact term is. I think of the

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people who interrupted the Kavanaugh hearings.
Right, you have a person stand up

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every three minutes in Yale, and
then after move them the room and slowed

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things down. You had mobs in
the lobbies of the Senate office buildings and

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ennising senators getting you know, and
off their elevators and I don't think.

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I never never heard, but I
don't think any of those people were ever

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charged, or if they were charged, that were released immediately and then the

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charges dropped. And so here's one
of the questions, is you know,

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the end of the unequal application of
the law to different political circumstances. Now

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we can hash that out in more
detailed next week, but it does seem

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to me that the Court might be
saying, gosh, you know, they

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may take cognizance of this asymmetry of
enforcement, and at least to the related

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question, which is, I don't
think the Supreme Court likes cases like this.

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They don't like to get in these
political fights. But on the other

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hand, and I think you said
this in one of your articles, or

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the way i'd restated is Supreme Court
usually likes the DC Circuit to organize a

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case for them. You know,
here the issues give some rulings present problems

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that the Supreme Court then sorts out. They don't always do a good job

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of that. I know that from
certain cases of a statute that shall not

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be mentioned here. Oh, we
we'll not hear. I'm not ruining everybody's

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Christmas holidays anyway. The real question
I want to ask John is what do

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you think the chances are that the
Supreme Court will hear this case and then

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say no, sorry, it has
to go through the regular process instead of

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actually jumping the line and settling it. I think that's the smart thing for

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the court to do. So you
could say, if you're the court,

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maybe I'm right. I think Lucretian
wouldn't agree with this. But if you're

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the court, you don't want to
get involved in politics. The last thing

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you want again is since they got
so much crap for Bush versus Gore,

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to say, oh, they did
something that changed the outcome of a presidential

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election. Although they didn't end up
doing that in Bush versus Gore, but

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that was accusation. So the easiest
thing would be to just have all these

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prosecutions kind of kick over to after
the election. And so Steve's right,

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Lay, if you let this go
up in the normal course, I don't

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see how the trial could reasonably take
place and get a verdict and time for

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the elections, because the judge here, the trajudge, has scheduled the trial

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to start like I think on March
fourth, like right before the day before

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Super Tuesday. That seems way too
fast. And then if you throw in,

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the Supreme Court has to hear this
immunity case, has to hear this

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other case that the appreciate it brought
up to us about the Fisher, the

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other January sixth defendants. That usually
takes months, if not years to decide.

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That would I think inevitably push the
case back. Yeah, And if

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the Supreme Court and if Trump loses
the election or whatever, it is not

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the nominee, he's not the next
president, then it's all moved, right,

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it doesn't it's no longer an important
case. So I don't I don't

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care what ideology of justice I am
on the court. I don't want to

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have to hear this case before I
absolutely have to. So so I'm finish.

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Leonard Levy on you, John,
and ask you if you are familiar

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with Yates versus United States, which
was a twenty fifteen case that the Supreme

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Court decided having to do with the
Sarbins Oxley Act, wherein the Supreme Court

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determined that the term tangible object that
criminalizes the destruction or can any record,

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document, or tangible object to obstruct
a federal investigation, that it has to

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be a tangible object. And that
was a five to four decision, and

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now that's perhaps a sixty three majority. So do you think this case is

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an I don't even want to say
it creates a precedent, but is an

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indication of how the court might decide
that case. Well, one way to

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think of that case. And then
there's this other great case about throwing fish

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back into the water. Whether that
violated God from that's the case record.

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Oh, this is That's why I
thought Steve would be all over this,

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because anything involving the seas, the
air, this is. This is a

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case where it is a very funny
case. This is a case where the

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government prosecuted someone for going beyond their
fishing quota. And what the guy was

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doing seems catching the fish and then
when he realized it was the wrong kind

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of fish, he threw them back
in the water. And so the government

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went after the guy under this lass
and he had destroyed evidence even though the

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fish were back in the water.
So, yes, Lucretia's right in the

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court, and this is I think
part of the broader thing that's going on.

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I think the Supreme Court is as
it should. I think if you

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believe in liberty. As Leonard Livy
did, is the court's been narrowing federal

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criminal law. It's been trying to
pull back prosecutors, and it's been generally

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opposed to creative interpretations of the law
to get particularly at what we would think

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of his white collar crime. So
remember Jack Smith tried this before. He

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tried to prosecute the governor of Virginia
for being bribed even though there was no

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quid bro quo, and the Supreme
Court right the issued a decision where Smith

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lost unanimously. It's hard to do
when you're the government, but he's So

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here's a question for the creature though, is I'll give you the Liz chainyview

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of things, right, and Liz
Cheney just you know, publishes long open

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in the protecting tyranny. So this
is the uh So, suppose Steve is

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wrong. If you have the view
that Trump might win, then all kinds

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of terrible things happen because what the
I think the list chaineyview is. Okay,

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the Supreme Court doesn't hear this case. Case keeps going, prosecution keeps

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going, but it can't finish before
November. Trump wins, and then as

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president, he orders the just Department
to drop a valid prosecution against him,

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or the worst of all possible worlds
from the Liz Cheney point of view,

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right undermines the rule of law and
so on, and instead orders the Justice

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Department to go after his enemies.
Right, He's threatened to go after his

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enemies, to go after the bidens
to you know, and a long list

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of other people, Liz Cheney and
the long list of other people. That's

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the right. That's the wrong For
me to answer that, John by saying

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what's good for the goose is good
for the game, Well, right,

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I actually don't believe that, not
entirely. Anyway, there's certainly a sense

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that across this country people who are
at least inclined towards Trump, maybe not

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you know, super Maga or whatever, Ultra Mega, but they see this

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very obviously as a political persecution of
Trump. And I think that that it'll

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be a tough call for a lot
of people to say, yeah, Trump

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should go after them the same way
they went after him, because I do

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think you know where I finally come
down on it, where I finally come

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down on it, is that the
rule of law is more important than anything

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else, even though the context in
which a statement is made is that I

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think Republicans are always always cease sorry, and always always letting the other side

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get away with things and not fighting
back because they want to be committed to

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things like the rule of law.
They want to be gentlemanly that I don't

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have as much respect for. They
want to appear to work together, they

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want to be bipartisan, and of
course you know they're all tied to the

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uniparty. That's a different subject,
but it really is a tough call,

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you know, on the If I
were Trump, I would talk a lot

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less about going after my political enemies
using say the Justice Department and the federal

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law enforcement apparatus, and a lot
more about cleaning house. That's that's if

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I were Trump. That's what I
would do, if you want to know

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the truth. But I take a
little satisfaction in the idea that he'd go

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after Uh. You know, the
Hunter said just recently and within the last

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hour or so from when we're taping
this that if Trump wins, he's leaving

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the country. Well, I would
do if I was a corrupt all you

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like him. We always get these
promises from Alec Baldwin and they leave I

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know this one's different. This is
not the same Steve. This is I'm

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leaving the country because you know what, I've had the sweetheart deal of sweetheart

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deals in this whole thing all along, because my dad's been controlling the Justice

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Department. If Trump gets back in, yeah, that's the subtext, right.

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Well, look, I mean yeah, So a couple of comments.

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One is, remember the twenty sixteen
campaign and especially the debates when I forget

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what the question was presented, but
Trump said to Hillary, well, you'd

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be in jail if I was president
now, right, And he threatened that

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he was going to have her investigated
and died it and of course with no,

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he didn't do that at all.
I've never heard any evidence that there

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was even thirty seconds of discussion with
Trump or the first Attorney General, Jeff

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Sessions, about investigating Hillary and prosecuting
her. So now when you have Liz

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Cheney and Jen Rubin and all the
others coming along with oh my god,

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Trump's can do all these horrible things, it really is like the little little

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kid crying wolf. And I think
I mentioned this. Did I mentioned this

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last week or maybe it was on
another podcast Ricochet where I keep showing up

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like a bad penny. You know. Trump, But someone said, are

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you going to be dictator? Says
no, just for one day. And

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I think Trump does this stuff deliberately
because he knows it drives his enemies out

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of their minds and makes fools themselves. But I do think to come in

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between Lucretia and I don't know,
maybe where you are, John, is

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the smart thing for Trump would be, actually you did just say this.

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The smart thing would be for him
to say, we need to clean house

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of the Justice Department, and we
need to stop political prosecutions. It may

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be too tempting for him to keep
baiting his critics to make jackets. By

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the way, but I do have
to correct your analogy or your simile or

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whatever it is, the metaphor the
little kid your metaphor the little kid crying

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wolf. It's more like the wolf
and sheef clothes, wolf in sheep's clothing,

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crying wolf. You know, these
are not innocent people. These are

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despicable, corrupt people willing to use
all of the mechanisms of government to try

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to bring down Trump. Liz Cheney
especially, and the fact that she's worried

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about it, she should be and
I hope she is. I don't think

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she really is. I think she's
just pandering, but she should be.

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That's my thoughts. Well, lukreshe
actually provided us with a nice segue to

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the next topic, because she's already
got the enemy's list together and Hunter Biden

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is at the top. And Hunter
Biden is proving that he's well worth it

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because he showed up. The background
is he's under subpoena to appear before the

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House committee that's been conducting and producing
a lot of information about the Biden family

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and all this money that's been coming
in to their accounts and going out who

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knows where. They've been doing a
far better job than the special counsel in

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Wilmington, David Wise, who really
dragged his vat. So Hunter Biden was

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supposed to appear this week in Congress
for deposition by lawyers committee lawyers behind closed

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doors, which is the normal practice, and instead he gave them a giant

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middle finger. He actually showed up
on Capitol Hill in front of the Capitol

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Building and had the sentence yeah saying
he wasn't going to show up. It's

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important that he went to the Senate
side and not the House side, because

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maybe they could have said the House
Sergeant of Arms after him if he showed

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up there. Interesting, because he
went to the Senate. The House Sergeant

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of Arms has no jurisdiction on the
Senate side. Oh interesting, So you

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don't read that on the mainstream media. So Hunter Biden showed up and said

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that the whole thing was a witch
hunt and that his father had no involvement.

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And this is a little bit of
news in the in the financial right.

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Financial is a new word that was
thrown in there, financial activities,

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of which everybody pounced on immediately.
What a stupid thing to say. Oh,

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they only pounced on it, they
seized on it. If you notice,

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by the way, I have a
new head sat Yeah, well I

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have a new entry I want to
offer for the Oxford English Dictionary, and

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the word is sounds. Because the
copy desk right now can't decide I Republicans

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pounds or Republican sees. Those are
the alternate headlines these days, So why

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don't we just go as sounds and
solve their problem for them? But Republicans

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sounds on that? Yes, that's
sorry, I couldn't help it. So

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I I want to go first,
Go ahead, I want to let Steve

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talk, but I want to I
have one quick correction, John, I

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don't actually think Hunter Biden is at
the top of the list. I think

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it's Joe Biden. Hunter Biden is
not interesting outside of his relationship to the

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person who happens to be President of
the United States. He's not interesting as

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he's just a drug addict, narcissistic, manipulative, corrupt. But he never

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would have gone anywhere if he'd have
just he probably never would have even graduated

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from college, never mind gone to
law school and become a lawyer, et

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cetera, if not for Daddy along
the way. So he's when people want

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00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:04.799
to make it about Hunter Biden,
that's that to me, is a total

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distraction. Just like Weiss's new charges. Wis no the other guy? What's

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00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:15.319
the other wis right? I give
him confused? Why is the professional?

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00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:22.640
His new charges against Hunter have nothing
to do and won't elicit any information about

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00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:26.200
the corruption of Joe Biden. And
so you know, that's why why there's

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00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:32.799
nothing, nothing in that whole list
of indictments that will actually bring out what

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00:24:32.839 --> 00:24:36.279
it is. It's about how he
didn't pay his taxes. It's not about

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where the money came from, and
how it is that a incompetent person like

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Hunter Biden is worth all of these
millions and millions of dollars in consulting phys

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00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:48.839
et cetera, et cetera. Nothing
about that in the indictment. I think

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he's worth zero. Because what's the
best line of the week was someone who

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00:24:52.759 --> 00:24:56.799
said, it emerges from the indictment
that he spent one point five million dollars

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on hookers and drugs, and the
rest of every man I know is yellois

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00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:03.799
of that, and the rest of
me just wasted. You step on my

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00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:10.359
punchline. Someone else's look the other
thing again, you know, said the

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00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:14.279
media won't report about that little fine
point of being on the Senate side to

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evade possible detention by the sergeant arms. You do hear the line repeated by

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00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:23.200
the media uncritically. Well, this
is happening, is Democratic Party talking point.

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This is happening because Hunter is the
son of a president. That's the

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00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:30.440
only reason. Actually, it's the
opposite. If he were any other person

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00:25:30.519 --> 00:25:33.119
but the son of the president,
he would have been indicted in throne in

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00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:37.960
jail for tax evasion years ago.
Just ask what's his name? The Hollywood

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00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:42.839
actor, the black guy from Passenger
fifty seven, Wesley Snipes, right was

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00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:48.119
the Wesley Snipes did eighteen months in
federal prison for not paying a million dollars

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00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:52.039
in income taxes. Now Congress doesn't
have hearings on it because you don't see

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00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:56.000
special treatment being given. You don't
have the hint as lucreatiure suggests that there

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00:25:56.079 --> 00:26:00.359
is involvement of the big guy with
this ten percent Takeular question, John point

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00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:07.359
two is since when witnesses get to
stipulate the conditions under which they'll appear before

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00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:11.319
a Congressional committee, and you know, the depositions, That is a time

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00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:17.680
honored method of investigating for Congress to
investigate, certainly in Watergate, certainly in

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00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:22.000
Iran Contra and the January sixth committee, which I think was a kangaroo court.

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00:26:22.039 --> 00:26:26.759
But nonetheless they use depositions, and
all the targets, including targets represented

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00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:30.119
by Abby Lowell, the same lawyer
that Hunter Biden is using right now,

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00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:37.400
submitted to depositions for that committee.
So the interesting question now is whether the

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00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:41.359
Justice Department will move to enforce a
congressional subpoena or I they're going to slow

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00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:44.640
walk it. I bet Lucasia think
that's not even a question at all.

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00:26:44.839 --> 00:26:51.440
But Joe, I've seen what's been
happening in with Biden friendly media. I'm

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00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:57.839
really disappointed in the Justice Department going
after my son. Right, so anonymous

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00:26:57.880 --> 00:27:03.519
sources say, you know, and
so it's been being made very very clear

355
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:07.960
to Garland that if he were to
do something like that, the Biden,

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00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:12.920
the entire Biden machine would come out
and destroy him. So and that's worked

357
00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:18.880
on that's worked on Garland before,
so I think it'll work again. Well,

358
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:21.519
yeah, to be too will be
decided. What else, John,

359
00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:25.839
I mean that what else was just
to finish up on that to you know,

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00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:29.200
Hunter can't help but get his dad
in more trouble because I think it

361
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:33.039
leaked out that Hunter called his dad
right before he did this whole thing and

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00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:37.079
talk to him about it. So
what if what if that's aid? Go

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00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:40.960
ahead, don't worry, We're not
going to prosecute you for that. That's

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00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:45.160
obstruction of justice, right he's actually
Joe Biden. Yeah, he's just making

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00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:49.160
it worse for his head, who's
in charge of supposing to prosecute people who

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00:27:49.240 --> 00:27:53.480
violate the law. Hunters violate the
law by defying a congressional subpoena. He's

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00:27:53.480 --> 00:27:57.279
going to get voted on contempt at
Congress. And then his pure point us

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00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:02.640
out to the Justice Department. Whether
the ketom Throman jail? Remember when Bill

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00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:07.839
and what was her name that,
Steve says, I can't make look at

370
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:18.400
some comments anymore. I know exactly
exactly. But anyway, what was the

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00:28:18.519 --> 00:28:23.319
what was the woman's name the attorney
general? No, no, no,

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00:28:23.319 --> 00:28:29.759
no, the one that Bill Clinton
met with on the tarmac in Arizona,

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00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:37.759
Loretta Lynch, Loretta Lynch and and
oh we just talked about our grandchildren.

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Everybody allowed that to go through.
Bill Clinton should have gone to jail for

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00:28:42.920 --> 00:28:48.240
that. I mean, seriously,
guys, that's that was a serious breach.

376
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And yet nothing happened. Nothing happened. And so same with with Hunter

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00:28:56.079 --> 00:29:02.000
calling up daddy and Daddy giving some
advice, and I mean, such a

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00:29:02.119 --> 00:29:07.240
joke. Oh it makes me sick. Sorry. Okay, let's pause here

379
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:19.440
for a commercial from hopefully McDonald's and
other sponsors. Okay, oh, we're

380
00:29:19.480 --> 00:29:22.839
back. You know last week at
the beginning of my feed actually had a

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00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:29.559
McDonald's ad John, which was there
we go to McDonald's. I've had McDonald's

382
00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:34.400
Chevron safe way, you know,
all the all the great wheels of capitalists

383
00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:40.480
of capitalist destruction. It means somebody
has somebody's listening into our show, because

384
00:29:40.519 --> 00:29:42.119
you know the reason the Chevron ad
would come up is because we talked about

385
00:29:42.119 --> 00:29:45.680
the Chevron doctrine, right and the
AI box just run with it and give

386
00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:48.119
us ads. Okay, No,
it's because you guys still have to buy

387
00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:51.519
gas and I don't. But you
know what I get all the time.

388
00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:53.680
You got a recall for your tesla. That's what you've got. No,

389
00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:56.640
No, you know what. We
don't want to waste time with that.

390
00:29:56.640 --> 00:30:00.680
But that's a funny story. Leave
that one. I Getanish ads all the

391
00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:03.720
time because I'm so damn close to
the border. Ah right, all that

392
00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:07.640
I get Spanish all the time.
You get the Spanish ads for ied clearing

393
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:14.079
equipment. Did you see that story
this morning that they found oh they found

394
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:19.119
ten I D's on the border.
Wow. Yeah, that's incredible, sou

395
00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:22.359
But there's so many other things to
talk about. But let's let's talk about

396
00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:26.200
this next issue, because we've been
spending great deal time on and I think

397
00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:29.880
they've been making a lot of points
that you know, other people are making

398
00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:34.000
later about the whole anti Semitism,
free speech and free speech issue on campus,

399
00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:40.240
because, uh, you could say
that the first major uh you know,

400
00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:44.640
head to fall, head to role
occurred after our podcast last Friday,

401
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:48.759
which was Liz McGill. Liz McGill, the president of Penn had was forced

402
00:30:48.759 --> 00:30:56.319
to resign and resigned for her testimony
four Congress. So let me start with

403
00:30:56.799 --> 00:31:00.599
Steve on this one. Steve,
is she the first of more heads to

404
00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:06.519
roll? You might have seen that
Harvard's Corporation, which is the governing body

405
00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:11.799
of Harvard, said that it's stood
behind Yeah, flagging gray. But is

406
00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:14.920
there still more to come? And
second, and this goes back to the

407
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:19.440
debate we're having earlier, did ten
do the right thing? Should she be

408
00:31:19.480 --> 00:31:26.759
removed for basically saying I'm not going
to punish people who call for the Holocaust

409
00:31:26.079 --> 00:31:30.480
unless it turns into conduct. That
was basically what she said at her testomony.

410
00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:32.559
Well, good grief, I mean, where do you start with all

411
00:31:32.559 --> 00:31:36.119
this? Look, we're removing a
college President's always the right thing to do.

412
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:40.000
It doesn't matter what the reason is. I mean, for people who

413
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:41.960
haven't seen it, that is the
thrust of Steve's New York Post article on

414
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:45.440
Yeah, Well, I mean the
presidents are well. First of all,

415
00:31:45.880 --> 00:31:51.640
the hypocrisy of the institutions was exposed, right, I mean, in particular

416
00:31:51.759 --> 00:31:53.960
case of Pan, we know they're
trying to throw out Amy Wax why because

417
00:31:53.960 --> 00:31:59.839
she criticized affirmative action and has said
some other things that go against campus orthodoxy.

418
00:32:00.440 --> 00:32:02.799
And uh, you know we had
Amy on when you were overseas,

419
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:06.519
John, and she couldn't talk about
she can't talk about her case because it's

420
00:32:06.519 --> 00:32:10.400
involved in going to go to court
probably, But I've been in contact with

421
00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:14.119
her, and I can't tell you
what she said. But let's just say

422
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:17.240
that they're not letting up. I'll
just I think I can say that literally

423
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:22.559
not letting up, not even a
little bit. Uh. And and her

424
00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:27.839
characterization of things I have to leave
out, but let's just say that he

425
00:32:27.920 --> 00:32:34.079
told me and it was beautiful.
Okay. Amy has said that when when

426
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:37.440
it's finally all over having assuming she's
up for it, she'd be happy to

427
00:32:37.480 --> 00:32:40.559
do a long form maybe even John, a series of podcasts with us to

428
00:32:40.599 --> 00:32:44.400
go through the whole story. And
I think it'd be well. I did

429
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:47.279
one of my usual origin story things
because sorry for the digression, but you

430
00:32:47.319 --> 00:32:52.440
realize that she's not just a law
professor. She was an emergency room physician.

431
00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:58.400
He's a doctor from Harvard Medical School. Okay, all right, so

432
00:32:59.079 --> 00:33:02.720
the Claudine gate is Look, the
problem that was there's going to be an

433
00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:07.559
asterisk attached to her. And the
reason the board of Trustees did not decide

434
00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:10.400
to follow Penn's lead on this as
they were afraid that they would be giving

435
00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:15.759
in to Bill Ackman and the least
Stephonic and the right wing, and that

436
00:33:15.799 --> 00:33:20.880
would be too embarrassing for Harvard.
More embarrassing than backing an obvious affirmative action

437
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:25.359
higher someone whose plagiarism looks pretty blatant, someone who has picked clearly for political

438
00:33:25.400 --> 00:33:29.720
reasons. Here, if I could
just do a brief digression, you know,

439
00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:35.720
the other person at Harvard I mentioned
that gay as the dean of Arts

440
00:33:35.720 --> 00:33:40.240
and Sciences or whatever. She was
persecuted several non leftist faculty or even conservative

441
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:45.440
faculty like Rowan Fryar, the economist
who exposed a lot of the mistaken claims

442
00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:52.200
of Black Lives Matter and so forth. She pounded out a biologist who actually

443
00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:57.799
stood for the idea of traditional understandings
of gender. And then she sanctioned,

444
00:33:57.920 --> 00:34:00.720
I don't know what, she led
the jihad on campus probably the right term

445
00:34:00.759 --> 00:34:06.920
for it against the law professor who
signed up to assists in what's his name,

446
00:34:07.839 --> 00:34:12.440
you know, the Harvey Weinstein's legal
case, right, And you know

447
00:34:12.519 --> 00:34:16.079
that was nobody ever went after Drshowitz
when he did appelle at work for convicted

448
00:34:16.119 --> 00:34:22.079
murderers. All right. The other
person who was mentioned as a possible president

449
00:34:22.119 --> 00:34:24.639
for Harvard was Danielle Allen, who
you know I know pretty well because her

450
00:34:24.760 --> 00:34:28.960
dad was one of my teachers,
and I've known Danielle since she was fourteen

451
00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:31.679
years old. And now she's a
liberal. She supported Obama, but she's

452
00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:36.840
not a leftist. She's a classicist. She writes about the Greek and Latin

453
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:42.239
classics. She does real scholarships,
she publishes serious books. She also,

454
00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:47.440
if you read her carefully, is
not down with the narrow catechism of diversity,

455
00:34:47.480 --> 00:34:52.840
equity, and inclusion, because she
always emphasizes that true diversity must include

456
00:34:52.840 --> 00:34:57.400
diversity of viewpoints in ideology. That's
not what the campuses want to hear.

457
00:34:57.960 --> 00:35:00.920
And so she was passed over to
be president in favor of Gay because Gay

458
00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:04.679
was fully, you know, the
gay I want to do some Nietzsche and

459
00:35:04.679 --> 00:35:08.800
gay science thing here somehow. Last
point I'll make on this is of many

460
00:35:08.840 --> 00:35:15.280
that could be I see Larry Summers
signed on with the former president's backing gay.

461
00:35:15.320 --> 00:35:19.320
Now. I happen to know for
a fact that privately, for many

462
00:35:19.400 --> 00:35:22.079
years now, Summers has been telling
people, friends and you know, people

463
00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:28.000
that know him that the problem with
the universities and the Democratic Party is the

464
00:35:28.119 --> 00:35:31.800
leftist progressives are wrecking them. And
of course they ran him out because you

465
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:37.320
know, he'd said something insensitive about
maybe there's a difference and aptitude between men

466
00:35:37.320 --> 00:35:39.599
and women on math and science,
and for that he had to go.

467
00:35:40.599 --> 00:35:45.119
And so this just revealed him to
be a coward, because here was an

468
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:49.719
example where he is going along when
he knows he knows the full truth about

469
00:35:49.719 --> 00:35:52.960
Claudine Gay, and yet he goes
along with the liberal establishment to back her

470
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:58.119
up at this moment when really some
changes might be made if you stood up

471
00:35:58.119 --> 00:36:00.360
for you know, the old Harvard. I guess I put it that way.

472
00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:04.480
Just the two points to fall up
before it turned to Lucretia. One

473
00:36:04.519 --> 00:36:07.639
is, yeah, what about Larry
Summers. He was pushed out for statements,

474
00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:10.000
he didn't do anything about it.
In fact, he probe tried to

475
00:36:10.039 --> 00:36:13.960
do the opposite. He tried to
make things better because of his belief.

476
00:36:14.280 --> 00:36:16.679
And then you also, one thing
I forgot to mention is that clutting Gate

477
00:36:16.760 --> 00:36:23.039
also been accused of plagiarism. Yes, and yes, serious plagiarism by I

478
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:29.920
think lagiarism. Yeah, that's why
she should replace Kamala Harris on the ticket

479
00:36:29.960 --> 00:36:34.519
I think is the all plagiarists ticket
would be perfect for Democrats. Sorry,

480
00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:38.320
but she You know, the Harvard
Corporation also said, well, there should

481
00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:44.679
have been some more quotations and citations
to the work, but they didn't say

482
00:36:44.679 --> 00:36:46.239
it depends on the context. That's
what I thought they would go with.

483
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:52.199
Well, but they actually they did
their own investigation after it was brought to

484
00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:54.480
their attention, and of course you
know, they whitewashed it. Oh,

485
00:36:54.679 --> 00:36:59.079
I can't say that, can I? That was on the Standford list of

486
00:36:59.159 --> 00:37:04.519
banned words. Remember we had that
contest that you weren't easily against me instance

487
00:37:04.639 --> 00:37:08.239
easily most band words and you weren't
even trying. It wasn't there were words

488
00:37:08.280 --> 00:37:14.599
I said that I that I didn't
even know we're on there thoughts on I

489
00:37:14.599 --> 00:37:19.760
want to go back first first to
penn because, and forgive me for this,

490
00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:23.239
I honestly don't remember John, if
you made this comment while we were

491
00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:28.679
on the podcast last week or after
we got off, but you said something

492
00:37:28.840 --> 00:37:35.360
interesting. You said that University of
Pennsylvania has always been open to Jewish students,

493
00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:37.280
much more so, say, than
Harvard and so on. And then

494
00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:42.800
the reason I'm bringing that up not
to revisit that point necessarily, but also

495
00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:50.599
the biggest surprise of the week has
been Lucreasia's new fondness, new fondness for

496
00:37:51.400 --> 00:37:55.840
Fetterman. Yes, I mean,
what is that? Right? The guy.

497
00:37:57.199 --> 00:38:00.880
It's not just it's not so much
that he just agreed with me on

498
00:38:00.920 --> 00:38:05.400
what he's saying about Israel et cetera, et cetera, and sticking up for

499
00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:12.159
his very significant number of Jewish constituents. It's that he's willing to do so

500
00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:15.719
in the face of some pretty serious
criticism and you know, the etcetera,

501
00:38:15.719 --> 00:38:21.400
etcetera, showing a kind of courage
to go against his own party, to

502
00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:22.920
go against you know, et cetera, et cetera. I would have never

503
00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:25.960
expected. I know, Steve's going
to remind me of his joke, which

504
00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:30.159
is that after you have a stroke, you get smarter. Well, no,

505
00:38:30.199 --> 00:38:31.760
I was just going to add that. In the last twenty four hours,

506
00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:35.360
I think it's last twenty four hours, he's come out very hard on

507
00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:37.880
stronger border security. You're not allowed
to say that as a Democrat, but

508
00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:42.719
he did so. And you know, maybe his unique position allows him to

509
00:38:42.760 --> 00:38:46.000
be a little bit more what would
the word be, a little a little

510
00:38:46.039 --> 00:38:51.039
more courageous perhaps to do the right
thing. I don't know, but anyway,

511
00:38:51.159 --> 00:38:53.719
I just I think the whole Pennsylvania
situation is really interesting right now,

512
00:38:53.800 --> 00:38:58.679
John, And you're our Pennsylvania guy, so well, you know the governor

513
00:38:58.679 --> 00:39:01.719
of Pennsylvania is Jewish, Josh Shapiro. He called right away for Lis McGill

514
00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:07.639
to be fired. So I actually
think in Pennsylvania you have to be reasonable

515
00:39:07.639 --> 00:39:13.360
because it is a swing state.
You know, it has been said Pennsylvania

516
00:39:13.840 --> 00:39:19.320
is Philadelphia and Pittsburgh separated by Alabama. It's a very conservative state. It's

517
00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:23.599
outside of the two major cities.
So and I think you are seeing the

518
00:39:23.679 --> 00:39:28.960
impacts of immigration now hitting places like
Philadelphia, New York, and it's causing

519
00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:31.679
a lot of disruption and social circles. But I want to ask you U

520
00:39:31.719 --> 00:39:36.760
Chretia, because you might have noticed
that our friends at fire are on Lis

521
00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:40.480
McGill's side. If you've seen our
friends from fire, they've been saying no,

522
00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:45.639
no, don't fire these people,
because all they were doing was restating

523
00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:52.599
what our free speech rights are.
And if we allow for universities to punish

524
00:39:52.599 --> 00:39:57.679
speech because it might be anti Semitic, we're going to allow universities to punish

525
00:39:57.760 --> 00:40:00.800
other kinds of speech that you might
happen to like, which of course they

526
00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:07.280
do, which of course they do. The other day, Steve actually convinced

527
00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:14.960
me of something. Oh it really
is Christmas. Remember I think it was

528
00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:19.800
last week when he or maybe it
was a week before, actually a very

529
00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:24.719
compelling discussion about this whole concept of
colonization and occupation and so on, and

530
00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:31.239
that part of the reason for the
fact that all of these idiot college students

531
00:40:31.239 --> 00:40:36.519
who couldn't find their own state on
the map, much less Palestine or Israel,

532
00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:42.079
are now you know, thinking that
when they're told Israel as an occupier,

533
00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:45.079
Israel as a colonizer, whatever it
might be, you know that that

534
00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:55.000
sort of thing is reinforced by these
ridiculously stupid virtue signaling Land acknowledgments right,

535
00:40:55.719 --> 00:41:00.079
Land ignog We discussed it. So
I don't want to go back back in

536
00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:04.920
to that whole thing. But you
know, every single meeting that now,

537
00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:07.599
even if somebody had a meeting in
my college the other day, I'm getting

538
00:41:07.639 --> 00:41:14.079
this person fired and they started off
with the damn Land acknowledgment. It makes

539
00:41:14.119 --> 00:41:16.679
me so angry. But what can
I say about that? Could I stand

540
00:41:16.760 --> 00:41:21.159
up in the middle of a meeting
and say I find this offensive and you're

541
00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:23.119
throwing your virtue signaling at me.
Of course I couldn't. I'd lose my

542
00:41:23.199 --> 00:41:29.239
job tomorrow tomorrow if I tried to
do something like that. So this idea

543
00:41:29.320 --> 00:41:37.960
that you know, someone who's spouting
incredibly ugly anti Semitic, anti Zionist,

544
00:41:38.199 --> 00:41:44.400
anti genocide on Jews, all those
sorts of things from the river to the

545
00:41:44.440 --> 00:41:49.440
sea, deserves somehow more protection than
someone like me who doesn't believe that I

546
00:41:49.559 --> 00:41:52.920
stole any land from anybody. I
bought the land I own. Thank you

547
00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:59.559
that we could go into that whole
thing, but we won't. Fire needs

548
00:41:59.559 --> 00:42:02.559
to have a few more subtleties to
their argument, and you know they haven't

549
00:42:02.559 --> 00:42:09.400
done even a close to decent job
of helping conservatives have freedom of speech on

550
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:15.480
campus, because they still don't.
They pretend to. But why why do

551
00:42:15.559 --> 00:42:21.039
they just want to look like they've
got a balance here. Well, yeah,

552
00:42:21.320 --> 00:42:23.360
so look that I mean before October
seven, if you go back to

553
00:42:23.480 --> 00:42:27.199
I don't know, maybe with September
August. Sometime in the last few months,

554
00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:31.599
Fire gave a yellow light on free
speech to Hillsdale College. Now why

555
00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:36.199
they do that. It wasn't because
they had a speech code. By the

556
00:42:36.239 --> 00:42:37.639
way, you talk to people Hillsdale, And by the way, Larry arn

557
00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:43.039
tells me I've talked about this,
that he gets a number of liberal professors

558
00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:45.920
who apply for jobs at Hillsdale and
they'll call him up and they say,

559
00:42:45.960 --> 00:42:49.440
we're just sick of the conformity on
campus. We'd actually like to go to

560
00:42:49.519 --> 00:42:52.760
campus where you can really say what
you think and you won't find any student.

561
00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:55.719
Well, you maybe find one or
two who are disgruntled for whatever reason.

562
00:42:55.760 --> 00:43:00.400
But people Hillsdale can talk about anything
they want. What Hillsdale has as

563
00:43:00.440 --> 00:43:04.679
a code of civility, and that's
what Fire Flagg. They say, oh,

564
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:07.440
that could be a constraint on free
speech. That is a purely formal

565
00:43:07.679 --> 00:43:10.400
thing, and I think they wanted
to give a yellow light to Hillsdale to

566
00:43:10.400 --> 00:43:15.039
protect their left flank. That's what
that's about. This is what's bottomne about

567
00:43:15.039 --> 00:43:16.920
fire for quite a long time,
and I think the root of the problem

568
00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:22.719
is manifold. One of the exchanges
with Claudi and Gay before the House Committee

569
00:43:22.760 --> 00:43:25.320
that got passed over a few accounts
of this, but I think was equally

570
00:43:25.320 --> 00:43:30.079
significant is when someone said, what's
the proportion of a conservative Republicans on your

571
00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:34.159
faculty? Said, oh, I
have no idea. We don't keep data

572
00:43:34.199 --> 00:43:37.719
on that. Well, the Harvard
Crimson has surveyed this many times. They've

573
00:43:37.719 --> 00:43:40.239
looked up all the faculty and their
party registration and it's you know, three

574
00:43:40.280 --> 00:43:44.519
percent Republican. So for her to
say, oh, I have no idea

575
00:43:44.559 --> 00:43:45.920
what it might be, and I
think maybe the person who asked the question

576
00:43:46.039 --> 00:43:51.159
mentioned the Crimson survey and she just
you know, rambled. The point is

577
00:43:51.159 --> 00:43:54.760
is that the root of the problem
in our campuses is not speech codes.

578
00:43:57.320 --> 00:44:01.119
It is the ideological monoculture of our
campuses. And until that changes, this

579
00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:06.280
problem is not going to go away. You didn't see maybe the law professor

580
00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:09.320
at Penn probably one of the ring
leaders against Amy Wax saying in the New

581
00:44:09.400 --> 00:44:13.239
York Times or maybe it was the
Washington Post, what we need to do

582
00:44:13.360 --> 00:44:16.519
is have stricter speech codes to prevent
hate speech across the board. Fire has

583
00:44:16.519 --> 00:44:22.400
half a point on this that's correct, which I think is worth taking to

584
00:44:22.440 --> 00:44:25.639
heart. But on the other hand, you either have to embrace which has

585
00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:30.639
failed so far. My argument I've
made a couple times and hasn't persuaded you,

586
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:34.079
John or anybody else from the sound
of things, that there's a substance

587
00:44:34.119 --> 00:44:37.280
of restriction on speech you could apply
depending on whether it aims to deny the

588
00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:42.199
natural rights of free speech for others. That arguments not winning. I acknowledge

589
00:44:42.199 --> 00:44:45.440
all that, or you have to
have the real diversity of ideologies and opinions

590
00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:49.800
and methodology on your campus, and
then it's a fair fight and you can

591
00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:53.239
have unlimited free speech and all these
colonizers will lose an honest and open debate.

592
00:44:54.320 --> 00:44:58.639
Steve, I think you're losing on
the substance of that argument. You're

593
00:44:58.679 --> 00:45:04.079
losing on the application of it.
And that's John's point every single time.

594
00:45:04.599 --> 00:45:10.280
I think John could even probably acknowledge
that speech that destroys the possibility of freedom

595
00:45:10.320 --> 00:45:15.119
of speech and the rest of our
rights that are protected in a republican society

596
00:45:15.960 --> 00:45:21.000
doesn't deserve the same level of constitutional
protection as other kinds of speech. But

597
00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:27.280
the problem always becomes who determines that, how is it determined, and what

598
00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:30.039
is done about it? And that's
where it gets tricky, and that's where

599
00:45:30.119 --> 00:45:36.320
fire has half a point. But
then what you said, I agree with

600
00:45:36.360 --> 00:45:38.800
the second part of what you said. Until we have true diversity of opinion

601
00:45:39.840 --> 00:45:45.079
lay off of people who are saying, hey, don't allow students to get

602
00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:49.880
so caught up in their free speech
right that they're marching in and forcing Jewish

603
00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:52.480
students to have to hide in addicts. Yeah, you know that at some

604
00:45:52.639 --> 00:45:55.920
point we have to be able to
make moral clarity here. I mean,

605
00:45:55.920 --> 00:46:00.119
the latest at Harvard is they told, I know, is heil how for

606
00:46:00.199 --> 00:46:02.440
who, that they should take down
their outdoor menora every night because otherwise it

607
00:46:02.440 --> 00:46:07.599
will be vandalized. I guess Harvard
police aren't able to provide protection or won't

608
00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:10.199
or something, but the fact that
they had to consider that is astounding.

609
00:46:15.320 --> 00:46:21.880
So John, what about Iowa.
I'm assuming you've been display all right?

610
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:25.559
Oh yeah, Iowa, you can
ask actually me, you know, with

611
00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:29.960
your with your bright red sweater on
the Christian you kind of look like the

612
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:35.360
statue they put up. Shut up, tell us with my crucifix on.

613
00:46:35.800 --> 00:46:37.800
Well, why don't you please tell
listeners what you're talking about. I will

614
00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:40.960
I'm going to hold I just wanted
to say, I'm from Iowa. And

615
00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:45.239
Steve can tell you that when he
first knew me, I was a somewhat

616
00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:47.719
I was a little bit of a
moral prude. Maybe you might say,

617
00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:53.440
I mean I came from a conservative
background. Had this is tantalizing to the

618
00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:57.400
listeners, what is she? Well, anyway, I came from Iowa.

619
00:46:57.440 --> 00:47:00.239
I grew up in a Pentecostal church. I mean so so the Iowa to

620
00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:06.239
me is a much more repressive kind
of place, you might say, than

621
00:47:06.280 --> 00:47:09.840
some that that that would ever have
something like what happened in the Iowa State

622
00:47:09.920 --> 00:47:15.480
Capitol. They removed the statue of
Thomas Jefferson. I don't know if they

623
00:47:15.519 --> 00:47:20.599
were placed in the same spot.
They removed the statue of Thomas Jefferson because

624
00:47:20.599 --> 00:47:25.760
of course he was a slave owner. And what is now in the capital

625
00:47:25.840 --> 00:47:31.800
in Iowa, the state capitol in
Iowa is an altar and a graven image

626
00:47:31.880 --> 00:47:39.440
of Satan, Satanic Satanic temple worship
icon or some darn thing. Right,

627
00:47:39.719 --> 00:47:43.840
So there were some people who were
sort of trying to pin this on Kim

628
00:47:43.880 --> 00:47:47.199
Reynolds, who Steve likes a great
deal. I'm not really following all that

629
00:47:47.360 --> 00:47:52.440
stuff. But the answer is sure, it wasn't a statue of Ron DeSantis.

630
00:47:52.320 --> 00:48:01.440
It was actually it's chilling. But
anyway, the answer was that you

631
00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:07.320
know this, it was the legislature
who did this, and it's because they

632
00:48:07.480 --> 00:48:15.880
have they have a value neutral,
a set of rules about which access laws.

633
00:48:15.039 --> 00:48:19.039
Right, yeah, yeah, and
so now we have a Satan.

634
00:48:19.280 --> 00:48:22.079
Well, I can't I can describe
what the First Amendment law is, but

635
00:48:22.159 --> 00:48:25.960
I'm curious to hear what you both
think about whether it's wrong, whether it

636
00:48:25.960 --> 00:48:32.519
should be changed. But the idea
of it is it goes back actually to

637
00:48:32.599 --> 00:48:39.760
these cases about whether a government can
allow any religious displays at all on public

638
00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:45.239
land. And so actually a lot
of these cases came up in the late

639
00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:49.920
seventies, early eighties and early nineties. They were about Christmas displays, and

640
00:48:49.960 --> 00:48:53.199
so a lot of jurisdictions would allow, you know, some kind of Christmas

641
00:48:53.280 --> 00:49:00.400
nativity scene and then maybe something for
Honika and then all these other groups sued,

642
00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:05.639
particularly the ACLU, and said you
got to ban it. And so

643
00:49:05.679 --> 00:49:08.880
what the court said is, no, we're not going to require a ban,

644
00:49:09.280 --> 00:49:15.000
but you have to instead allow,
as you guys were kind of saying,

645
00:49:15.199 --> 00:49:19.840
open access, other groups should be
allowed to speak in that space,

646
00:49:20.039 --> 00:49:25.159
and so you could have Christmas Nativity, you could have Menora, but you

647
00:49:25.199 --> 00:49:30.280
also have to allow other religious groups
to put up there so that the government

648
00:49:30.320 --> 00:49:36.199
doesn't take a side as to any
individual religion. So actually conservatives thought this

649
00:49:36.320 --> 00:49:39.480
was a victory because it was better
than a complete ban. Instead, you

650
00:49:39.559 --> 00:49:45.119
allow some religious display. The government
can support religion in this minor way as

651
00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:50.400
long as it doesn't pick an individual
religion itself to support. This is actually

652
00:49:50.440 --> 00:49:54.519
the creation of renquest and it continues
to be the court. Conservatives on the

653
00:49:54.559 --> 00:49:58.760
Court like this view. Think I
think Lucretian and I are two conservatives who

654
00:49:58.760 --> 00:50:01.719
don't think this was a victory.
And I mean, by the way,

655
00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:06.360
I'll bet we're going to get a
long comment chastising us from Phil Munoz,

656
00:50:06.360 --> 00:50:08.480
who's a frequent listener of the show
because he's the expert on this. I

657
00:50:08.559 --> 00:50:12.440
think a lot of those cases were
incoherent. I mean, one reading of

658
00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:15.880
a couple of them is, well, you can have a Christmas creche as

659
00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:19.519
long as you're not too serious about
its Christianity. But now there's a sequel

660
00:50:19.559 --> 00:50:24.079
in this Iowa case that Lucretia mentions, which is somebody went in and smashed

661
00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:28.880
the darn thing up, and they're
calling it vandalism. And my question is,

662
00:50:28.880 --> 00:50:31.320
how do we know it's vandalism.
Is it vandalism consonant with Satanic religion?

663
00:50:31.360 --> 00:50:34.920
It might be just part of their
ritual. Who can say it's my

664
00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:38.559
truth? My truth is that that
was a sequel and a part of the

665
00:50:38.599 --> 00:50:43.039
pagan Satan worshiping thing, and so
it's perfectly fine. So Steve, I

666
00:50:43.079 --> 00:50:45.719
want to ask if it was you
that smashed it so that you can have

667
00:50:45.760 --> 00:50:53.880
the lived experience. Well, I
do you know. I know when I

668
00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:58.119
was listening to phil Well last year
when he came and visited us John,

669
00:50:58.559 --> 00:51:01.400
I realized how much I've lost track
of a lot of this line of religious

670
00:51:01.400 --> 00:51:04.679
liberty cases. I used to know
a lot about it back in the eighties

671
00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:07.079
when I was hanging around with Leonard
Levy, who was really quite bad on

672
00:51:07.119 --> 00:51:10.440
these issues. He was very much
was oh he was very much a strict

673
00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:15.880
separation of church and state. Oh
yeah, he's uh. I mean it

674
00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:17.800
was very good at it, and
he liked to argue about it. I

675
00:51:17.840 --> 00:51:21.280
mean, that's the nice thing about
it is he would admit there was another

676
00:51:21.320 --> 00:51:25.280
side to it. But I do
remember Pat moynihan pointing out that this may

677
00:51:25.280 --> 00:51:29.079
be the cases from the seventies or
even the sixties. So you had one

678
00:51:29.119 --> 00:51:34.480
case that said, no, a
public school district cannot loan books to a

679
00:51:34.559 --> 00:51:37.440
Catholic parochial school. That violates the
First Amendment. But then a separate case

680
00:51:37.480 --> 00:51:42.559
that had to do with bussing.
Yeah, it was. It was it

681
00:51:42.599 --> 00:51:45.360
was bussing, and it was,
you know, can a public school district

682
00:51:45.840 --> 00:51:52.119
provide maps to a parochial school that's
running you know, transit for their kids,

683
00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:53.679
you know, the private school bussing? And the court said, yeah,

684
00:51:53.679 --> 00:51:57.639
that's okay, And I think they
probably had a public safety rationale.

685
00:51:57.760 --> 00:52:00.239
Whereupon Pat moynihan asked the saline question, and what about an atlas? What

686
00:52:00.280 --> 00:52:04.920
would the court think of an atlets? And public school district give an atlas?

687
00:52:05.480 --> 00:52:08.599
It shows the incoherence and the improvisation
of this whole line of cases,

688
00:52:08.679 --> 00:52:13.039
and you know I didn't ask you, guys, what would you do about

689
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:20.440
the holidays displays? Would you allow
only Christmas and Christian and Jewish religious symbols

690
00:52:20.519 --> 00:52:23.079
but no other religions or would you
just say no religions at all? And

691
00:52:23.239 --> 00:52:27.639
this is the problem. It's kind
of like my question about implementation of speech

692
00:52:27.679 --> 00:52:30.840
codes, is we get into actually
applying it, how do you decide it

693
00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:36.480
consistent with whatever your principles are?
And I think that the problem is is

694
00:52:36.480 --> 00:52:43.159
that maybe that's the wrong question,
John that after years of bad Supreme Court

695
00:52:43.280 --> 00:52:46.239
decisions, trying to okay, give
them, give them some credit, trying

696
00:52:46.280 --> 00:52:52.960
to find a way to articulate how
the First Amendment really the free exercise of

697
00:52:52.960 --> 00:53:00.159
religion in the anti establishment clause,
how you actually make that reality in in

698
00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:04.360
a pluralistic society. It's a difficult
problem. I'm going to acknowledge that upfront.

699
00:53:04.440 --> 00:53:10.000
However, it's impossible to imagine one
hundred years ago. It's possible for

700
00:53:10.039 --> 00:53:15.559
me to imagine today, but one
hundred years ago that's Iowa. The state

701
00:53:15.679 --> 00:53:21.960
capitol in Iowa would would even bulk
at the idea that they could have a

702
00:53:22.400 --> 00:53:29.320
crash a major scene, a Nativity
scene and ban an altered to Satan because

703
00:53:29.360 --> 00:53:34.119
some of those things have to be
part of the culture, they have to

704
00:53:34.119 --> 00:53:42.920
be part of the Republican virtue that
is that in many ways was destroyed by

705
00:53:42.960 --> 00:53:46.559
some of those court decisions. In
my opinion that you know, there's a

706
00:53:46.559 --> 00:53:52.159
lot of reasons for why we're not
as a as a people in this country

707
00:53:52.280 --> 00:53:58.639
practicing private religion in the same at
the same level to the same measure that

708
00:53:58.679 --> 00:54:01.559
we did one hundred fifty years ago. But the Supreme Court is part of

709
00:54:01.599 --> 00:54:05.840
that. Now, you can't go
back and sort of fix it by having

710
00:54:05.880 --> 00:54:10.039
this value neutral, moral neutral approach
to religion, any religion. I want

711
00:54:10.039 --> 00:54:15.599
to make up and then use all
of the protections that the Supreme Court has

712
00:54:15.639 --> 00:54:21.519
given in the course of these many
bad decisions to get Let me switch a

713
00:54:21.559 --> 00:54:28.519
little bit. Remember during the Vietnam
War, conscientious subjector status at one time

714
00:54:28.679 --> 00:54:32.480
was granted to basically to Quakers.
That was the only group of people who

715
00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:39.599
could who could rely on conscientious subjective
status to get out of a draft.

716
00:54:39.679 --> 00:54:45.440
And then you know, usually they
were often part of other sorts of activities

717
00:54:45.119 --> 00:54:49.119
by the time that the Court got
done with it during the Vietnam War,

718
00:54:49.159 --> 00:54:51.440
I'm just not going to remember the
cases off the top of my head.

719
00:54:51.679 --> 00:54:54.880
You had will as long as you
have a sort of commitment to some notion

720
00:54:55.119 --> 00:55:02.119
of goodness or a set of principles
by which you operate your life, then

721
00:55:02.119 --> 00:55:06.360
you can tell you can claim conscientious
objective status. I mean, there's just

722
00:55:06.599 --> 00:55:12.679
bad, bad decisions by the court
that led us into this confusion, I

723
00:55:12.719 --> 00:55:20.320
think, and the idea one further
point, and I'll be quiet that somehow

724
00:55:20.400 --> 00:55:25.639
I have a right to be offended
if I'm driving past a federal cemetery and

725
00:55:25.679 --> 00:55:32.039
there are crosses in the federal cemetery. There's no guarantee in the Constitution against

726
00:55:32.039 --> 00:55:38.159
your right to be offended. I'm
offended by land acknowledgements. I'm offended by

727
00:55:39.360 --> 00:55:44.800
altars to satan. I don't think
that's what the Constitution is trying to protect

728
00:55:44.840 --> 00:55:47.719
me from. And so that's gotten
us off on all sorts of stupid things

729
00:55:47.960 --> 00:55:52.000
because the Court was too dumb.
I do think recent decisions have pushed that

730
00:55:52.079 --> 00:55:58.239
back a little bit. Yeah,
So the one area that's gone beyond I

731
00:55:58.320 --> 00:56:04.679
think in a positive ways. And
this open access idea has one upside,

732
00:56:04.679 --> 00:56:07.800
one downside. The one upside it's
meant that religious groups have been winning a

733
00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:12.760
lot of cases lately where they've been
able to say, why is the government

734
00:56:12.840 --> 00:56:16.119
singling us out for not being able
to participate? So this was the great

735
00:56:16.199 --> 00:56:20.920
victory with school vouchers. If you
were if you were the ACLU, I

736
00:56:20.960 --> 00:56:23.639
think the thing that would freak you
out the most is that school vouchers can

737
00:56:23.639 --> 00:56:27.559
be used at Catholic schools. Right
that they fought that up and down.

738
00:56:27.599 --> 00:56:32.320
That's but the court said, taking
from taking the principle from these minor cases

739
00:56:32.320 --> 00:56:36.440
about religious displays, they eventually turned
it to a big principle, which is

740
00:56:37.400 --> 00:56:40.000
that religious groups have a right to
their speech, the right to their views.

741
00:56:40.039 --> 00:56:45.280
And if the government says everybody else
can have a student voucher for their

742
00:56:45.320 --> 00:56:50.199
schools except religiou schools, it's almost
like you're singling out religious people because of

743
00:56:50.199 --> 00:56:55.239
what they think for disfavored treatment versus
Bremerton. What do you think of that

744
00:56:55.280 --> 00:56:58.639
case? Well, that's an example. They're saying, well, if he

745
00:56:58.719 --> 00:57:01.920
had gone this. This is the
case of the football church who gave a

746
00:57:02.079 --> 00:57:07.239
you know, gave us had a
group prayer at the end of football games

747
00:57:07.719 --> 00:57:09.599
on school property, which is public
school. And I think the school the

748
00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:14.239
go court basically said, look,
if he had gone out there and given

749
00:57:14.400 --> 00:57:17.079
the Gettysburg address, right guess it, gets made a speech that would have

750
00:57:17.079 --> 00:57:21.760
been fine. So why can't he
lead a prayer group at the end,

751
00:57:21.800 --> 00:57:27.880
two voluntaries voluntary, because then you
would be singling him out because he's of

752
00:57:27.920 --> 00:57:31.679
his religious speech, his religious But
here's the downside, which I don't think

753
00:57:31.679 --> 00:57:36.119
the court's worried about, but I
have seen in some scholars, like the

754
00:57:36.119 --> 00:57:43.480
aforementioned philm Onnos, is when religious
groups take this approach, they're turning themselves

755
00:57:43.559 --> 00:57:47.239
just into like the ACLU or a
union or an interest group. They're just

756
00:57:47.280 --> 00:57:52.679
saying, we're the same as anyone
else that has a view. We're claiming

757
00:57:52.760 --> 00:57:59.039
free speech rights. They're almost denying
or reducing the importance that they're a religious

758
00:57:59.119 --> 00:58:00.679
group. And that's a different clause
of the constitution, right, that's a

759
00:58:00.679 --> 00:58:06.800
free exercise clause. So that they've
won this free access idea has been successful

760
00:58:06.840 --> 00:58:09.599
because it's really a free speech idea. It doesn't really have to do with

761
00:58:09.679 --> 00:58:14.719
religion at all. That's not a
downside to this approach. Yeah, I

762
00:58:14.800 --> 00:58:17.920
can, by the way, is
should being offended by being people being offended

763
00:58:19.119 --> 00:58:22.599
reminds me of the Great Money Python
line where the I forget John Clees is

764
00:58:22.639 --> 00:58:24.360
I am sick and tired and fed
up of people who are sick and tired

765
00:58:24.360 --> 00:58:30.280
and fed up. There we go. You know, the practical side of

766
00:58:30.320 --> 00:58:34.320
me says, look, we live
in an age lots of spurious religion.

767
00:58:34.440 --> 00:58:37.760
Crystal worshipers, right, you know, nature worshipers, tree huggers, all

768
00:58:37.760 --> 00:58:40.519
the rest of that. This might
not fly, and I could see it

769
00:58:40.519 --> 00:58:43.880
being a roted very quickly. But
what if you said, look to be

770
00:58:44.440 --> 00:58:47.639
to have an actual display in a
state capital on neut religious grounds that don't

771
00:58:47.639 --> 00:58:52.039
discriminate, You've got to be an
actual religion that pays tax or that has

772
00:58:52.039 --> 00:58:54.679
a tax exemption, that actually has
paid clergy, that actually has churches,

773
00:58:54.800 --> 00:59:00.639
or a certain that Satianism doesn't.
No, I'm not That's why I say,

774
00:59:00.679 --> 00:59:06.199
I'm not sure this is ah well
right in the Sierra Club. No,

775
00:59:06.239 --> 00:59:07.760
I'm not. I'm not sure that
works. This is a very tentative

776
00:59:07.760 --> 00:59:10.679
suggestion on my part. And again
you could see people going out. I

777
00:59:10.679 --> 00:59:15.119
mean there had been over the years
people who have tried to you know,

778
00:59:15.119 --> 00:59:19.559
there are certain tax deductions that members
of the clergy get in our tax code

779
00:59:19.559 --> 00:59:23.719
in the possible also scientology. There
you go. Scientology won the right to

780
00:59:23.719 --> 00:59:28.039
get a tax exemption, right,
and I could see people going out and

781
00:59:28.039 --> 00:59:30.280
people have been trying to abuse those
for years. I'm a minister of a

782
00:59:30.360 --> 00:59:35.000
church that has only my wife as
the parishioner. But no, no,

783
00:59:35.000 --> 00:59:37.440
no, we all know your wife. She would definitely not join the church

784
00:59:37.480 --> 00:59:43.159
at church. Okay, But but
I think the I R. S Has

785
00:59:44.239 --> 00:59:47.119
said I found ways of denying those
kinds of clothes. We just a factual

786
00:59:47.119 --> 00:59:50.440
point that there was and why couldn't
stay capital do the same thing. That's

787
00:59:50.440 --> 00:59:53.039
why there was a case a few
years ago of a terrible case on the

788
00:59:53.079 --> 00:59:58.000
facts where this basically small, made
up religion of this one guy, and

789
00:59:58.039 --> 01:00:02.840
I think, like twelve followers or
shouting we're going to military funerals. Oh,

790
01:00:02.920 --> 01:00:07.679
it's the Westboro Baptist Church people right
of course, holding protests because they

791
01:00:07.719 --> 01:00:13.960
said the soldiers were dying because of
the immorality of America and that we'd allow

792
01:00:14.039 --> 01:00:17.000
gay marriage. So it's a very
conservative guy in a way. But you

793
01:00:17.000 --> 01:00:20.920
know, he's doing a terrible thing
trying to disrupt military funerals, and the

794
01:00:20.920 --> 01:00:24.079
court upheld his right. And the
funny thing is not as a religion right,

795
01:00:24.119 --> 01:00:27.840
as a free speech right right.
But but John, the funny thing

796
01:00:27.880 --> 01:00:30.920
about that was all of the major
establishment churches joined on the side of the

797
01:00:30.960 --> 01:00:37.159
Westboro Church in that way because they
recognized what it might mean if the court

798
01:00:37.239 --> 01:00:40.800
had not. I mean, I
still think the decision was probably wrong,

799
01:00:42.079 --> 01:00:46.639
decided on some some on the wrong
basis, not necessarily coming out on the

800
01:00:46.639 --> 01:00:53.920
wrong side. But but if I'm
if I'm the Catholic Church and I see

801
01:00:53.960 --> 01:00:58.920
that the court is telling me I
can't protest, the next thing, you

802
01:00:58.960 --> 01:01:01.519
know, I can't protest my my
parishoners can't protest outside of abortion clinics,

803
01:01:01.519 --> 01:01:05.519
which I know is a whole nother, a whole other thing. But it's

804
01:01:05.559 --> 01:01:10.800
always interesting to see who the amigas
briefs are filed by in a court decision

805
01:01:10.920 --> 01:01:15.280
like that, And it really was
all the establishment churches on the side of

806
01:01:15.280 --> 01:01:17.800
Westborough. And this is where this
is where I missed the well, just

807
01:01:17.800 --> 01:01:22.599
the one quick comment that I'm hoping
I can even shock Lucretia by coming into

808
01:01:22.599 --> 01:01:24.039
her right, which is really hard
to do. This is where I missed.

809
01:01:24.039 --> 01:01:29.559
The America of informal law once upon
time, the Westborough Baptist Church protest

810
01:01:29.639 --> 01:01:32.679
would have been solved not by an
appeal to the Supreme Court, which deranges

811
01:01:32.760 --> 01:01:37.199
things, but by calling up your
local chapter of the Hell's Angels and saying,

812
01:01:37.199 --> 01:01:40.960
which is what happen? What's that
it did happen. That's the reason

813
01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:45.000
you don't hear about it anymore,
even though they won the court case is

814
01:01:45.039 --> 01:01:49.320
you started having veterans groups, and
many of them, you know, biker

815
01:01:49.360 --> 01:01:53.119
type veterans groups, right, and
putting them Yeah it no, I agree

816
01:01:53.400 --> 01:01:57.440
with that one hundred percent. I
was taking a slightly more extreme version of

817
01:01:57.440 --> 01:01:59.800
the Hell's Angels got well, yes, that's right. That that actually that's

818
01:01:59.800 --> 01:02:04.480
still work. I know people I
had students who went to and put themselves

819
01:02:04.519 --> 01:02:08.559
in between the Westboro and the Westborough
Church people. They were really good for

820
01:02:08.599 --> 01:02:15.159
a long time at at using that
they would if people tried to stop them,

821
01:02:15.159 --> 01:02:21.199
if law enforcement tried to stop them, they would sue and they would

822
01:02:21.320 --> 01:02:25.880
use the money that they that they
want in these lawsuits to continue to fund

823
01:02:25.960 --> 01:02:32.320
their activities. And so it needed
private people to go in and just you

824
01:02:32.320 --> 01:02:37.079
know, just put the barrier up
or worse. You know, I absolutely

825
01:02:37.119 --> 01:02:38.800
agree with That is kind of the
point I was trying to make even earlier

826
01:02:38.800 --> 01:02:44.719
about the Satanic altar. I don't
really have a problem with somebody going in

827
01:02:44.760 --> 01:02:49.599
and smashing it. I have a
problem with with a whole bunch of people

828
01:02:49.719 --> 01:02:52.960
just getting out and protesting in front
of it and exercising their First Amendment rights

829
01:02:52.960 --> 01:02:58.199
and saying, this is what happens
as a result of the worship of Satan

830
01:02:58.480 --> 01:03:01.599
and whatever. That might be.
So well, if you perform an exorcism

831
01:03:01.679 --> 01:03:05.840
of the Iowa State capital, it
might have collateral benefits for taxpayers. Who

832
01:03:05.880 --> 01:03:08.320
knows. So let me let me
wrap this up, because I think there's

833
01:03:08.360 --> 01:03:14.000
a very interesting religion issue I love
to talk about in a future podcast,

834
01:03:14.079 --> 01:03:20.400
which is, does the Constitution allow
the government to promote religion in the way

835
01:03:20.480 --> 01:03:23.639
neo conservatives would like I'm haunting,
I'm raising the right flag for lucretia,

836
01:03:24.280 --> 01:03:30.639
or does religion in and of itself
have some special constitutional status because neo cons

837
01:03:30.679 --> 01:03:34.639
for example, you mentioned moynihan just
a few minutes ago. Stee neo cons

838
01:03:34.719 --> 01:03:37.960
many of them were atheists, but
they love the idea of protecting religion because

839
01:03:38.000 --> 01:03:42.880
it did good things for the republic. You know, we have Republican virtues,

840
01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:45.800
good for society, stability, good
values, families, and so on.

841
01:03:46.440 --> 01:03:51.360
Or does religion have something that's not
instrumental to it? Right, that's

842
01:03:51.400 --> 01:03:54.039
just thinking religion is an instrumental tool
for the republic, or is it actually

843
01:03:54.679 --> 01:04:00.960
does religion have some actual special right
just because it's Oh, I think we

844
01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:03.440
got talked, we got reserved that
I just came to me because of discussion.

845
01:04:03.519 --> 01:04:09.719
Now, but one, well,
Lucretia, John has no idea how

846
01:04:09.719 --> 01:04:13.360
many cans of worms he just opened
up? Yes I do. I did.

847
01:04:13.400 --> 01:04:15.320
That's why I'm saying. I got
talking about it next time, Okay,

848
01:04:15.360 --> 01:04:17.639
And I know I went. Look, you can't see if I actually

849
01:04:17.679 --> 01:04:21.880
do have a little red flag I
got to wave in front of Lucretia in

850
01:04:21.920 --> 01:04:28.639
our next debate. It's really small. People can't see it. But I'm

851
01:04:28.639 --> 01:04:32.280
gonna I'm going to try to get
this emblazoned with some quyond. I want

852
01:04:32.320 --> 01:04:34.639
to leave it for next time,
But I want to leave you with a

853
01:04:34.760 --> 01:04:42.639
quote from your not favorite American political
theorist Thomas Jefferson, where he says,

854
01:04:43.360 --> 01:04:47.480
can the liberties of a people be
thought secure if we remove their only firm

855
01:04:47.559 --> 01:04:51.159
basis a conviction in the minds of
the people that they are of the gift

856
01:04:51.199 --> 01:04:56.760
of God and that they are not
to be violated by his wrath. But

857
01:04:56.800 --> 01:05:00.519
he's mister Church and State. I
mean, the wall something that's wrong.

858
01:05:00.840 --> 01:05:12.199
But the author of a lot and
he was he was not a well,

859
01:05:12.760 --> 01:05:15.159
he was a I believe you could
call him a religious man, a deist.

860
01:05:15.360 --> 01:05:17.599
You know, he wrote his own
Bible, caught up the Bible,

861
01:05:17.639 --> 01:05:23.320
and took out all the mystical stuff. One of the things that the heart

862
01:05:23.360 --> 01:05:28.039
of that quote, we'll talk about
it next time, really is that when

863
01:05:28.119 --> 01:05:33.599
self interest gets in the way of
recognizing of human beings, recognizing the rights

864
01:05:33.639 --> 01:05:40.079
of other human beings, and then
when that finds its way into political society,

865
01:05:40.880 --> 01:05:45.920
it really takes something more than just
a commitment, a moral commitment to

866
01:05:45.000 --> 01:05:51.039
some vague notion of virtue. You
need to understand that God will And in

867
01:05:51.079 --> 01:05:56.920
this case, of course, he
was talking about slavery. There's no argument

868
01:05:57.119 --> 01:06:02.280
against the self interest of slave owners
other than the argument that says, someday

869
01:06:02.320 --> 01:06:05.800
God's going to punish us for this, which Jefferson was very clear on and

870
01:06:05.840 --> 01:06:10.800
so was Lincoln. By the way, I'm just gonna say mister Jefferson teared

871
01:06:10.880 --> 01:06:17.679
down this wall. That's so,
that's a great way to end our end

872
01:06:17.800 --> 01:06:25.000
our episode. Although we've got several
plan now we've got to hold based on

873
01:06:25.360 --> 01:06:30.280
So I guess at the industry,
do we want to have Lucretia's Babylon B

874
01:06:30.480 --> 01:06:33.119
headlines first favorite Babylon B headlines of
the work? Yeah? Just a few,

875
01:06:33.320 --> 01:06:35.639
but there's some good ones, of
course, as there always is.

876
01:06:38.400 --> 01:06:44.039
Claudine Gay responds to plagiarism accusations by
giving an inspiring I have a dream speech

877
01:06:45.840 --> 01:06:47.920
at a bunch of those, right, Yeah, I know that a bunch

878
01:06:48.400 --> 01:06:54.159
It's too easy, really. Harvard
announces Claudine Gay will remain as university feurer.

879
01:06:58.320 --> 01:07:04.360
H Republicans and Democrats finally brought together
by another chance to spend your money.

880
01:07:05.559 --> 01:07:09.280
Yeah, you know how much I
like that. There's a whole bunch

881
01:07:09.280 --> 01:07:15.400
of them that I won't read about
how how die Hard is a Christmas movie

882
01:07:15.880 --> 01:07:23.800
husband upset when wife won't accept John
what's his name inflatable as a Christmas decoration.

883
01:07:25.440 --> 01:07:29.440
But I do want you guys to
know that an early Christmas gift from

884
01:07:29.440 --> 01:07:34.239
my son was my own, my
very own advent calendar of what's his name?

885
01:07:34.280 --> 01:07:45.280
Fall? Yes? Really from uh
from die Hard. Really it's a

886
01:07:45.360 --> 01:07:49.559
Christmas decoration. Wow, and it's
magnetic, so you push him down.

887
01:07:50.960 --> 01:07:58.119
So I so I've got, unfortunately
another string in serious cammalisms unfortunately, but

888
01:07:58.159 --> 01:08:01.400
I think I have an odd b
are kammalism to keep up the normal tradition.

889
01:08:01.880 --> 01:08:06.159
So the serious kammalism is that,
apparently, according to stories, Kamala

890
01:08:06.199 --> 01:08:12.280
Harris is now merged within the administration
as the one who wants to be most

891
01:08:12.360 --> 01:08:18.600
restrictive on Israel's war and Gaza and
calling for an early end to the fighting.

892
01:08:19.159 --> 01:08:24.920
And so the quote I have is
that apparently she's been saying inside the

893
01:08:24.920 --> 01:08:29.960
administration that the United States should be
quote unquote tougher on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin

894
01:08:30.680 --> 01:08:34.760
Yahoo and that she's calling for a
quote more forceful at seeking a long term

895
01:08:34.800 --> 01:08:42.880
piece and two state solution unquote.
So that's the serious that's the serious quote,

896
01:08:43.760 --> 01:08:47.520
John, do you have their you're
going to do the Hanukah messaged or

897
01:08:47.880 --> 01:08:56.000
I just you know the Jill Biden's
boyfriend, the second spouse or whatever is

898
01:08:56.079 --> 01:09:00.359
Joe Biden's boyfriend. Remember the kiss
at the station, right right? Yeah,

899
01:09:00.279 --> 01:09:06.960
the second, the second gentleman.
There's no first gentleman anyway. He

900
01:09:06.960 --> 01:09:12.720
he popped, he tweeted or put
Facebook, I forget social some social media

901
01:09:13.520 --> 01:09:21.000
posting where he celebrated Hankah. He's
Jewish by totally screwing up the story about

902
01:09:21.039 --> 01:09:25.560
what really happened at Hankkah and the
way he described it. I'm trying to

903
01:09:25.560 --> 01:09:29.479
do this quickly is that you know, the the Jewish people were hiding,

904
01:09:30.039 --> 01:09:33.119
and they were hunkering down, and
they were hiding in hiding, and and

905
01:09:33.399 --> 01:09:39.640
the oil lasted for eight days and
that was the miracle, when in fact,

906
01:09:39.720 --> 01:09:45.640
what Honkah was about was a great
uh is Uh victory by the Israelites

907
01:09:46.359 --> 01:09:53.560
and storing their access to the capital
that excuse me, the temple in Jerusalem,

908
01:09:53.640 --> 01:09:59.640
and being able actually to have their
religious rituals inside the capital in Jerusalem.

909
01:09:59.640 --> 01:10:01.479
But they only had enough oil to
last one day, and the oil

910
01:10:01.800 --> 01:10:05.479
the miracle is that they were able
to carry on these rituals for eight days

911
01:10:05.479 --> 01:10:10.119
with the oil that should have lasted
only one day. The reason that significant,

912
01:10:10.319 --> 01:10:14.920
of course, is that it's I
mean, I don't know if he's

913
01:10:14.960 --> 01:10:17.920
smart enough. Is he smart enough
Steve to have sort of oh, let's

914
01:10:18.039 --> 01:10:26.279
let's sort of rework this, this
narrative, this story into something that says

915
01:10:26.279 --> 01:10:30.760
that the Jews really should be back
to hunkering down as oppose two having an

916
01:10:30.760 --> 01:10:34.199
outstanding military victory. Yeah. I
mean that was a lot of people said,

917
01:10:34.199 --> 01:10:38.039
Gushad, he missed Hebrew school that
day when they taught that story.

918
01:10:38.720 --> 01:10:42.000
But yeah, well that's just it. I mean, you know, our

919
01:10:42.039 --> 01:10:45.439
friend Richard Samuelson maybe the first to
point out, but I heard the John

920
01:10:45.479 --> 01:10:51.079
pot Hard and the commentary guy said, progressive Orthodoxy will not allow telling the

921
01:10:51.119 --> 01:10:58.039
Honka story straight because it ratifies Jewish
presence and sovereignty over the land two thousand

922
01:10:58.079 --> 01:11:01.720
more than two thousand years ago,
and the right of arm resistance of Jews.

923
01:11:01.800 --> 01:11:05.520
And they're hoistic, but this is
what the left is against right now,

924
01:11:05.560 --> 01:11:10.000
so it goes and so they couldn't
say that. But but because they're

925
01:11:10.000 --> 01:11:13.760
they're panicking about, you know,
defection of Jewish voters and Jewish money,

926
01:11:13.840 --> 01:11:16.239
the Democratic Party thought, gosh,
we better put out a hanok a message

927
01:11:16.279 --> 01:11:19.399
to show that we're we still love
them, right. Instead, they took

928
01:11:19.399 --> 01:11:23.239
all that it was on Instagram and
Facebook and they took all of them down

929
01:11:23.279 --> 01:11:27.960
because they became a low Yes they
did, right, I mean it was

930
01:11:28.079 --> 01:11:31.359
so absurd that I think they got
somebody must have called them up and probably

931
01:11:31.439 --> 01:11:36.840
a lucky thing. Those two never
had children together. I'm just gonna leave

932
01:11:36.840 --> 01:11:41.119
it at them. Yeah, okay, right, all right, send this

933
01:11:41.239 --> 01:11:45.039
out, John, I think that
I think will bring this to a timely

934
01:11:45.119 --> 01:11:50.079
conclusion. So always drink your whiskey. Meat. Let's go, Brandon and

935
01:11:50.239 --> 01:12:00.680
Steve. God save the queen man. See y'all next week. A humbuck

936
01:12:00.840 --> 01:12:04.880
last restaurant because it is my favorite
holiday. But all this year has been

937
01:12:04.920 --> 01:12:10.399
a busy. But I don't think
I have the energy. Rad Am already

938
01:12:10.399 --> 01:12:15.800
mad Ross cousins test the season.
The perfect gift for me would be completions

939
01:12:15.880 --> 01:12:21.399
and connections left from last year ta
shopping counter most interesting as number, but

940
01:12:21.640 --> 01:12:26.600
never the time most of anyone has
along those lines of deck, those halls,

941
01:12:26.640 --> 01:12:30.359
through those trees, raise off comes
on Christmas. Here. I just

942
01:12:30.399 --> 01:12:42.800
need to catch my brother Christmas by
myself. This year held the picture of

943
01:12:42.880 --> 01:12:46.920
frozen landscape, chilled this room for
twenty four days. Ever green sparkling stone.

944
01:12:47.079 --> 01:12:50.880
Get this ter over with flash back
to the spring time. So again

945
01:12:51.239 --> 01:12:56.079
would have been good to go for
lunch green. We were both green.

946
01:12:56.159 --> 01:13:00.439
We tried, he said, me
keeping time. Ricochet join the conversation.