1 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:11,359 Welcome to Spycraft, a podcast that tells gripping life and death spy stories and 2 00:00:11,439 --> 00:00:17,160 the amazing devices and operations that made them possible. Now let's get started. 3 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:28,960 One. Welcome back everyone. Well, today we have a great guest, 4 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:35,280 Mark Polymeropolis. That's po l y M E r O p O U l 5 00:00:35,359 --> 00:00:39,240 O S. Who is he? Well, he was in the CIA. 6 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:41,240 He was in intelligence. We're going to find out more about him. But 7 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:45,240 a second. He was the author of the book called Clarity in Crisis Leadership 8 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:50,320 Lessons from the CIA. Clarity in Crisis Leadership from the CIA, Mark Polymopolis. 9 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,840 You can find it on Amazon and everywhere else. He's retired from the 10 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:59,600 Senior Intelligence Service excuse me ranks in twenty nineteen after serving twenty six years in 11 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,200 the INTELLI his community in operational, field and leadership assignments. He is an 12 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:07,200 expert encounter terrorism, COVID action, human intelligence collection. Mark is one of 13 00:01:07,439 --> 00:01:11,719 IC's most intelligent, most highly decorated field officers and has owned a unique leadership 14 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:18,159 style based on decision making under pressure, inclusivity, camaraderie, and competition. 15 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,879 All the above. His book Clarity and Crisis Leadership Blessings with the CIA was 16 00:01:21,879 --> 00:01:23,799 published in June twenty twenty one, just came out, folks, you definitely 17 00:01:23,799 --> 00:01:26,760 want to grab a copy. Mark schools to pass on this knowledge to the 18 00:01:26,799 --> 00:01:32,480 private sector who can benefit from his unique experiences serving his country in the hot 19 00:01:32,519 --> 00:01:34,560 spots of the world. Folks, I'll tell you a lot of times, 20 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,719 a lot of the lessons these individuals have learned do translate very well in the 21 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:41,200 business world. Hey, and even in the everyday world. You'd be surprised. 22 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:42,840 Before we get started. To make sure to share, subscribe, hit 23 00:01:42,879 --> 00:01:45,719 that I like button. You know, we like it. That's not wasting 24 00:01:45,719 --> 00:01:48,799 any more time. Welcome Mark to the show. Welcome sir, thanks so 25 00:01:48,879 --> 00:01:52,400 much, Thank you for being here. That guess first and foremost. Thank 26 00:01:52,439 --> 00:01:55,400 you for your service as well. No, I know, thanks, I 27 00:01:55,439 --> 00:01:57,599 really appreciate it. And you know you get I have to give you huge 28 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,319 kudos for pronouncing money in correctly. It's always a case fourteen letters, you 29 00:02:01,319 --> 00:02:04,519 know. When I grew up playing ice hockey, my jersey had that. 30 00:02:04,719 --> 00:02:07,000 You know, it's kind of an inverted you. So when the letters went 31 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,240 all around. But I'm a great storyteller, so this is gonna be fun. 32 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,639 I'm gonna start with a story. So when I was in the Middle 33 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,520 East, and you know, I think it was in two thousand and six 34 00:02:15,599 --> 00:02:17,840 exactly. I can't tell you where, but the presidence briefers called me on 35 00:02:17,879 --> 00:02:21,120 the secure line. I was at a field station overseas. They said they 36 00:02:21,159 --> 00:02:23,400 were going down to brief George W. Bush. I'm pretty psyched about this, 37 00:02:23,439 --> 00:02:25,520 you know. So I'm a you know, I'm a mid level CIO 38 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,599 off star as a manager of one of our field stations. But he wanted 39 00:02:29,599 --> 00:02:31,800 to know my analysis on a situation. So I wait for hours by the 40 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:36,039 secure phone. They call back and this is the President's briefers. They said, 41 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:37,360 yeah, we you know, we went down there. We kind of 42 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:38,759 brief from on the PDB. I said, how to go and they said, 43 00:02:38,759 --> 00:02:42,360 well, he really spent the whole time trying to pronounce your last name, 44 00:02:42,439 --> 00:02:45,000 so you know, we didn't even get to the part about what you 45 00:02:45,039 --> 00:02:47,000 were saying about the situation in the region. So, you know, I 46 00:02:47,039 --> 00:02:52,520 love telling that story because my name has always been a challenge. Now, 47 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,280 I guess your background is Greek and your family, Yeah, so I was. 48 00:02:55,319 --> 00:02:59,599 I was actually born in Greece as well. Mom's American, my dad's 49 00:02:59,599 --> 00:03:02,960 Greek. But my dad, who was a university professor at Rutgers University, 50 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:07,520 he actually went back after he received his PhD in the deep in the United 51 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:09,400 States, he went back to do his conscription. He was a he was 52 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:15,039 a conscript in the Greek military in his early thirties, and so I was 53 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,599 born in Athens. Of all the things, he was a very unhappy conscript, 54 00:03:17,599 --> 00:03:22,599 I'll tell you that much. I can't imagine. So, and Greece 55 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:24,960 is beautiful too, so for sure, you know, one of the things 56 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,759 that you know, you know, you always trying to think about your journey 57 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:30,800 in life. And you know, I was lucky because every summer we go 58 00:03:30,879 --> 00:03:34,319 back, and my dad was a professor, so we'd have two or three 59 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,759 months on the Greek islands. And then even he had a he had a 60 00:03:37,759 --> 00:03:42,800 sabbatical in Algeria in twenty ten. So I'm sorry, not twenty ten when 61 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,080 I was ten, so you know, in nineteen I was, that was 62 00:03:46,159 --> 00:03:49,680 nineteen seventy nine. So off I go alone. My mom puts me on 63 00:03:49,719 --> 00:03:52,479 an airplane. My dad's in Algeria, and I go when I was ten 64 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,560 years old, and I go fly through Paris by myself, and I spend 65 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:59,759 a month with my dad traveling two thousand miles through the Sahara Desert. We're 66 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:01,560 like, we're sleeping in oasis, is riding camels. I thought I was 67 00:04:01,599 --> 00:04:03,840 Lawrence Arabias. So if you want to get you know, you kind of 68 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,560 go to your origins and how you get to a place like the CIA. 69 00:04:06,639 --> 00:04:11,199 And I think back on those experiences because just doing kind of crazy stuff. 70 00:04:11,199 --> 00:04:13,360 So my parents were great. They really exposed me to a lot of things 71 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,160 that was unusual. So it's their fault that I joined the CIA. Was 72 00:04:15,199 --> 00:04:19,240 telling that. That's actually gonna be my second to next question. But I 73 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:25,319 do remember, I think Greece was had not a role per se. It 74 00:04:25,319 --> 00:04:27,879 was kind of like a role they didn't want to have during the world the 75 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,839 Cold War. Oh so I was trying to take over it, and there's 76 00:04:30,879 --> 00:04:32,639 a big mess going on over there right there was they were trying to contain 77 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,519 the spread of communism in the US. Was well part of the part of 78 00:04:36,519 --> 00:04:40,240 the Marshall Plan and so you know, but then you know Greece, you 79 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,920 know, it did have kind of a you know, a struggle with leftists 80 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:46,959 and communist elements, but it's a really it's another interesting part of my journey 81 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,920 because you know, you can there's lots of different arguments for and against this, 82 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:55,399 but the US administrations at the time really supported the Greek right wing governments, 83 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,399 and the CIA was blamed for a lot of things there. It even 84 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,279 led to you know, extreme anti Americans sentiment. Our station chief there was 85 00:05:00,319 --> 00:05:05,360 assassinated, and so there's been some bad stuff that happening in Greece and ultimately 86 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:09,920 a lot of Greeks don't have great views towards towards the CIA, which has 87 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:14,199 changed a lot. But my dad was one of those. And so so, 88 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:15,639 you know, one of the amazing kind of points, and I talked 89 00:05:15,639 --> 00:05:18,199 about it in the book a lot of you know, it was it is 90 00:05:18,199 --> 00:05:21,079 a book when I talk about kind of family value is one of my leadership 91 00:05:21,079 --> 00:05:26,240 principles, but it's when I talk about having an organization that cares about its 92 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,160 people. I remember, you know, George Tennant, it was Greek, 93 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:30,560 you know, my former director. I came back from Iraq and I was 94 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,439 being awarded a pretty prestigious intelligence medal, that Distinguished Intelligence Medal for some of 95 00:05:34,439 --> 00:05:39,839 my efforts, you know, in two thousand, early two thousand and three, 96 00:05:40,079 --> 00:05:42,680 and so We're at our headquarters here in Langley, you know, Langley, 97 00:05:42,759 --> 00:05:46,519 Virginia. And my father comes to see me receive this medal. And 98 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:47,920 I talked to George Tenant earlier and I said, look, my dad is 99 00:05:47,959 --> 00:05:51,279 not a huge fan of the CIA, and Tennant said, you know, 100 00:05:51,319 --> 00:05:54,319 an only way he could have goes I got this. So he takes my 101 00:05:54,399 --> 00:05:58,399 dad aside before the ceremony. They spake in Greek alone for fifteen minutes. 102 00:05:58,439 --> 00:06:01,399 Tenant takes the time to do extraordinary. My father comes back. He has 103 00:06:01,439 --> 00:06:03,800 tears in his eyes, and I said, you know, what did you 104 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:05,879 talk about the director? And he said, you know, dip with that 105 00:06:05,959 --> 00:06:10,600 and greed nothing. He wouldn't tell me. I see Tenant later on and 106 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:12,439 I said, what did you say to my dad? He had tears in 107 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:14,680 his eyes and Tenne said, well, you know, I only talked him 108 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:15,800 briefly for you know, ten minutes or so, but I told him you 109 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,079 were a hero. And I got choked up. And so it's an amazing 110 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:23,519 story because just this small gesture, it's a leadership story. The small gesture 111 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,879 by the then head of the CIA did so much to almost repair a part 112 00:06:27,879 --> 00:06:30,639 of the relationship I had with my father, that wasn't so great. And 113 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:31,680 afterwards, now even now, and I talked to him, I said, 114 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:33,560 you know, dad, do you still like the CIA goes No, no, 115 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:38,079 no, I don't like to see it. But I like George Tennant 116 00:06:38,879 --> 00:06:42,600 Wells. Those little things really that make a difference in leaders aren't incredible. 117 00:06:42,959 --> 00:06:44,920 And that's what, you know, that's what I really took from that. 118 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:46,319 I mean, George W. Bush used to do this, you know, 119 00:06:46,399 --> 00:06:49,519 take take five, you know, twenty seconds out of your day, write 120 00:06:49,519 --> 00:06:54,040 a little note to somebody, you know, make sure to just acknowledge people. 121 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,199 And this is everybody across the board, you know. And so you 122 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,199 know, there's things that leaders can do which really don't take a lot of 123 00:07:00,199 --> 00:07:02,439 time and effort, but goes such a long way in building these cohesive teams, 124 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,079 and so often you don't see people do that. So I kind of 125 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,959 I wanted to mention that my book. I certainly did. You know, 126 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:12,279 if you if you can find things that are easy to do as a leader, 127 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,839 you better do those. There's a lot of hard stuff that happens later 128 00:07:15,879 --> 00:07:18,040 on, but get the easy stuff right. That's a great point, great 129 00:07:18,079 --> 00:07:21,360 point, and it's so funny. Whatever your politics folks aside. I mean, 130 00:07:21,399 --> 00:07:25,199 George Bush should have that. People used to say a lot of times 131 00:07:25,319 --> 00:07:27,680 you did do that. He did the little things, and he took the 132 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,279 extra step every so often. And some other presidents have too. With a 133 00:07:30,319 --> 00:07:33,240 Democrat or Republican, doesn't really matter that they did. To some of them, 134 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:38,600 you can tell the comments were made by staffers or people in general. 135 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,720 He stopped and took a picture with me, or he signed this, or 136 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,959 even athletes, right mark, even athletes will sometimes you can see the difference 137 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,360 between one who will come up and sign and some people who'll take the extra 138 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:51,040 time to go out there and do the signatures and whatnot. It's really interesting 139 00:07:51,079 --> 00:07:54,920 to see that I agree and get, you know, and it's something that 140 00:07:55,199 --> 00:07:58,160 you know, maybe it's not something you would kind of just you know, 141 00:07:58,199 --> 00:08:01,600 you're not certainly born with this, but well you can practice it as long 142 00:08:01,639 --> 00:08:03,600 as you understand it. Don't be aloof you know, you know, you're 143 00:08:03,639 --> 00:08:09,439 not better than anybody else, certainly not in government work. So you know, 144 00:08:09,439 --> 00:08:11,519 I was I was watching TV to getting ready for a big, you 145 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:13,360 know, big Red Sox game in the night playoff game, and I saw 146 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,720 Kyle sh Worber their first base when walking around the streets of Fenway just signing 147 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,040 autographs. Wow, and who does that? And so but because he gets 148 00:08:20,079 --> 00:08:24,199 it. You know, he's from Massachusetts' so he's in Massachusetts native. But 149 00:08:24,519 --> 00:08:26,839 that's the kind of stuff I love to see because you know, and that's 150 00:08:26,879 --> 00:08:30,519 what really resonates with employees, with people with fans, you know, kind 151 00:08:30,519 --> 00:08:33,720 of all across the spectrum, and so so much so much want to talk 152 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,159 to you about our leadership too, because they're so much more complicated. But 153 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:39,080 before we get to that, when you said you were in Iraq, I 154 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,200 think you said, we got the Were you in the military or the CIA? 155 00:08:41,639 --> 00:08:46,200 So so you know, I did seven operational tours with CIA, and 156 00:08:46,279 --> 00:08:48,320 so I spound out, you know, and one of the things look at 157 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,919 so I'm part of the generation and so when I talk about it serving a 158 00:08:52,039 --> 00:08:54,759 rock in Afghanistan, I'm not special. Everybody did you know? And on 159 00:08:54,879 --> 00:08:58,600 the operational side, we you know, not only did we you know, 160 00:08:58,879 --> 00:09:01,840 have to we should we want to two and so ultimately, uh, you 161 00:09:01,919 --> 00:09:05,000 know, boy, what was the journey I was in? You know, 162 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,320 I started off in Afghanistan. I went in in February and March of of 163 00:09:09,399 --> 00:09:13,200 o two, so not on one of the first teams, but early on 164 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,840 down to Kandohar. I later returned. I was a base chief in Afghanistan 165 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:22,440 for an entire year from twenty eleven to twenty twelve in eastern Afghanistan along the 166 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:24,039 Pack Afghan border, and then sand went in between that, you know, 167 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:28,080 I spent about half a year in I Rock. You know, first before 168 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,200 the war, I was living with the Kurds up in the northern I Rock. 169 00:09:31,519 --> 00:09:33,480 And then I got pulled for a mission to go in with kind of 170 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:37,440 naval special warfare, the Navy seals for the high value target hunt. And 171 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:39,559 as the as the war was kicking off, and uh, you know, 172 00:09:39,639 --> 00:09:43,559 in what March April of three, and so a lot of time you know, 173 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,960 as we call it in the sandbox, but even more so a lot 174 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,840 of time in war zones. And that's just, you know, that's something 175 00:09:48,879 --> 00:09:52,639 that I enjoyed doing. I was not in the military before, but I 176 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:58,480 got good at those kind of kind of situations and and ultimately it really kind 177 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,840 of you know a lot of the example, a lot of the war stories 178 00:10:00,879 --> 00:10:05,399 I have from my book on Leadership really stemmed from those times. Because again 179 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,120 the book is about cloudy crisis, which means how to lead during times of 180 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,600 ambiguity when you don't have situational awareness, you know, And I, all 181 00:10:11,639 --> 00:10:13,639 of a sudden by the end of my career. It's interesting, at the 182 00:10:13,639 --> 00:10:16,200 beginning of my career, I wasn't a great leader. I became a really 183 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,879 good leader at the end of my career, probably not unlike a lot of 184 00:10:18,919 --> 00:10:20,799 others. But all of a sudden, I realized that, you know, 185 00:10:20,879 --> 00:10:24,960 those times of uncertainty and ambiguity, that was my happy place and I really 186 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,759 felt comfortable, and I kind of dissected why so I came up with these 187 00:10:28,799 --> 00:10:31,000 principles. But a lot of it was from times in Rock, Afghanistan, 188 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:37,039 Syria, other places where you know, there was East Africa where where things 189 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,519 weren't so you know, it certainly wasn't Europe. I never served in you 190 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:45,080 know, Paris, Berlin or London, to the great regret of my family, 191 00:10:46,159 --> 00:10:50,159 you didn't missed out special and everybody else would you formil Did you ever 192 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:54,679 bump into David Tyson back then? Well so not, you know, not 193 00:10:54,919 --> 00:10:58,240 in Afghanistan. I knew him after that, you know, certain you know, 194 00:10:58,279 --> 00:11:01,279 there's a there's an incredible book that is out called First Casualty, which 195 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:07,440 which has incredible details of his uh his his role in Afghanistan. Who was 196 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:11,360 you know, and he was and it's it's very sobering, it's it's it's 197 00:11:11,399 --> 00:11:13,759 a lot, you know, it's interesting. I always found him to be, 198 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,840 you know, he he epitomized everything I talk about my my book, 199 00:11:16,879 --> 00:11:20,559 which is humility. You know, we do extraordinary things, but you know, 200 00:11:20,759 --> 00:11:22,679 sometimes bad things can happen to and and and he's a he's a very 201 00:11:22,759 --> 00:11:26,879 humble man, still is of course. And that's it's a it's an incredible 202 00:11:26,919 --> 00:11:28,919 book. Heck of a story. And uh yeah, so you know, 203 00:11:30,039 --> 00:11:33,039 so so there's you know, there's the director of Operations is actually fairly small. 204 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:35,639 So when I say I know everybody, I don't know everybody, but 205 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,600 you kind of know everybody, you know, So you know, I think 206 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,519 there's more special agents in the New York Field Office of the FBI than there 207 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:48,440 are c I A. Case officers around the planet. Really it's a very 208 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:50,159 small service, and so you really do know everyone. But that's what that's 209 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,360 one of the things that makes it great because that feeling is of the feeling 210 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:56,639 of camaraderie that feeling of family that that we we we fight like hell, 211 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,039 it's like brothers and sisters fight like hele and but boy, you know, 212 00:12:01,039 --> 00:12:05,039 if you come at us from the outside, people get angry. Let's do 213 00:12:05,159 --> 00:12:07,799 this. Let's do a timeline here. So I don't do is when was 214 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,759 the first time you took a leadership position? You mentioned you were a manager. 215 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:13,320 Was that the first time you took a leadership position? So you know 216 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,879 the way it works at the agency is you know, so I was, 217 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,919 you know, so interestingly enough, I got recruited into CI as an analyst 218 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,120 out of graduate school. I went to Cornell University and so I came in 219 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,960 on the analytics side and worked there for about two years as an analyst before 220 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,240 I realized I wanted to go on the operational side. And that's when I 221 00:12:28,279 --> 00:12:31,519 went down, you know, to our training course, to the most unsecret 222 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:33,240 facility on the planet, which I can't even talk about but everybody knows. 223 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:37,039 Uh, we're still not supposed to talk about the ludicrous. But but ultimately 224 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,440 then I, you know, then I you know, I was trained as 225 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:45,399 an operations officer and so off I went primarily into the into the Middle East. 226 00:12:45,399 --> 00:12:48,840 So the first several assignments you go is just a line because of a 227 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:50,759 street operations officer. That's where you learn the trade. You know, our 228 00:12:50,879 --> 00:12:54,080 jobs the spot assess, develop, hand, recruit, and then handle agents, 229 00:12:54,159 --> 00:12:56,919 spies and so you know, you do that all around the world, 230 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,200 and but you learn your you know, you learn the trade, and so 231 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,360 sometimes you go to high camera intelligence environments. Sometimes there's a big counter terrorism 232 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:07,240 threat, sometimes a little more benign. You can recruit a lot of folks 233 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,080 and then you know, after several years, you know, maybe at the 234 00:13:11,399 --> 00:13:15,200 seven seven to eight year mark, you start you go into first line management 235 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,879 and so maybe you're the deputy of a small station, maybe you're a branch 236 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,279 chief back at headquarters. But then then you start managing. And really the 237 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,120 interesting thing is, you know, CIA doesn't do great leadership training or not 238 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:31,159 like the military where you go off for a year. So if you serve 239 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,679 twenty years in the US military, you have two solid one year assignments to 240 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,399 go to staff colleges. You go off to you know, National Defense University 241 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,960 or Command of Staff College, you know, whatever it is across all the 242 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,679 services. CI doesn't do that, and so you know, you can have 243 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:48,720 great case officers who can be really crappy leaders. You can have mediocre case 244 00:13:48,759 --> 00:13:52,080 officers who become great leaders. But ultimately, one of the things I talk 245 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,000 about, you know, certainly, and this is you know, I mean 246 00:13:54,159 --> 00:13:56,679 a lot of the book is self deprecating. There's a lot of humility involved. 247 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:00,200 But I was not a great leader at first. I turned into one. 248 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,200 And if I look back at those times, the first leadership positions, 249 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,759 and you know, I kind of WinCE and think of the mistakes I made, 250 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:07,960 not not ideal, but you know, you kind of you kind of 251 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:13,720 get through it. How important was I'm assuming this says all the way through 252 00:14:13,759 --> 00:14:18,000 your career, but how important was having emotional intelligence? Being able to identify 253 00:14:18,159 --> 00:14:20,399 emotions, identify body language, and all those cues that you see talking to 254 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:24,399 your the people who work with you. Sure, So there's there's two aspects 255 00:14:24,399 --> 00:14:26,960 of this. One is your employees and the other, of course, is 256 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,440 the agents we handle. And it's really different because and but but but nonetheless, 257 00:14:31,799 --> 00:14:35,000 let's start with just your employees. I mean, you know, look, 258 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,159 look, they're the the you know that the CIA kind of the biggest 259 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,039 trait, the biggest character trait we value is integrity and so and it's a 260 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,919 it's an interesting job because a lot of times you're off working on your own. 261 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:46,440 So if I'm going to go meet an agent on the street, no 262 00:14:46,519 --> 00:14:52,039 one's with me. You know, I'm exchanging information or I'm a painting information. 263 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,600 Perhaps I'm paying this individual a tremendous amount of money at times. But 264 00:14:54,759 --> 00:14:56,919 but you have to have that integrity. Then you come back and you have 265 00:14:58,039 --> 00:15:00,840 to write it up on a cable. You tell your fellow officers, you 266 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,039 know, your mates in the station, tell your boss obviously, but everything 267 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:07,360 is based on integrity. So it's how you really conduct yourselves is critically important. 268 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,759 And just have that sense of honesty. You also have to admit failure 269 00:15:11,799 --> 00:15:15,000 of mi mistakes. That's okay. You know, failing is okay, But 270 00:15:15,159 --> 00:15:18,559 then of course you have to you have to kind of self correct with our 271 00:15:18,639 --> 00:15:22,159 agents. It's it's it's you know a little bit different in the sense of, 272 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:24,879 you know, it is a bit of a more manipulative process. So 273 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:28,440 you know, we have recruited someone. This is a foreigner who's spying to 274 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,200 the United States. They're doing it for a host of reasons, maybe ideological, 275 00:15:31,279 --> 00:15:35,480 maybe monetary. You know, maybe they hit the glass ceiling in their 276 00:15:35,519 --> 00:15:37,799 foreign ministry, and that's why they're working with us. But whatever it is, 277 00:15:37,039 --> 00:15:41,159 there is a bit of more manipulation you do with the people we're handling, 278 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,720 and that's that's because you want to keep them alive. Your dedication is 279 00:15:43,759 --> 00:15:46,879 to keeping them safe, but you also want them to continue providing information. 280 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:50,720 But it's a really different dynamic in terms of you know, the people you 281 00:15:50,799 --> 00:15:54,120 work with, your fellow college at CIA, and then then your agents as 282 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,039 well, although you know, what is sacricant on both is, of course 283 00:15:58,159 --> 00:16:02,600 the safety of everyone involved. How about people who are tough to deal with 284 00:16:02,759 --> 00:16:04,799 sometimes in their blind and work, I'm assuming the operators a lot of times 285 00:16:04,879 --> 00:16:10,120 can be type A. I guess it's usually the that goes around, right, 286 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,399 What a great question. So look, so I have such a you 287 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:18,399 know, it's a bunch of type A you know, alpha male, alpha 288 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,320 females in a super hyper competitive environment. So it's really important as a manager, 289 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:26,799 as leaders to harness that. And so you know, there's and and 290 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:30,440 and Actually I talk about it in one sense of one of the leadership principles 291 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,799 I call it employ the dagger. But it has to do with fostering healthy 292 00:16:33,879 --> 00:16:37,799 competition, not unhealthy competition, but healthy competition. And the way I did 293 00:16:37,879 --> 00:16:41,679 this and I think it was really successful. I used to and I'll just 294 00:16:41,879 --> 00:16:44,200 I'll tell you exactly what it is. I used to do a stand up 295 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,440 morning meeting when I was a manager. And so you have a bunch of 296 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:51,080 type A folks. Everyone is competing for what well, well there is you 297 00:16:51,159 --> 00:16:52,559 know there. You know, you're in a country and you want to recruit 298 00:16:52,639 --> 00:16:56,159 agents. So they're out in the streets trying to find those those those folks. 299 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,240 It's it's it's a sales job. It's the same thing. You have 300 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,320 to bring in new business. And so how do you how did I get 301 00:17:02,399 --> 00:17:04,480 them to to, you know, have healthy competition. Well, I would 302 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,359 do something called a stand up morning meeting where instead of me telling them what 303 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:11,000 to do, I would ask them what did you do last night? What'd 304 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:12,839 you do last night? And then you know, sometimes people have to take 305 00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:15,880 a night off and we work at night. That's what you do as a 306 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,200 CI officer. But it's pretty clear when someone's not pulling their weight, and 307 00:17:19,319 --> 00:17:23,839 then that peer pressure from the group is what motivates them as opposed to me 308 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,279 coming down on them. And that's how I really kind of try to harness 309 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:33,599 these type A type A personalities and it really does work. Uh and and 310 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,640 what happens then the whole the whole team kind of rises, the prem rises, 311 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,880 everybody rises the top because it's a healthy competition with each other. Well, 312 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:42,920 I have to forgive me my memory sometimes isn't the best, but I 313 00:17:44,039 --> 00:17:47,279 remember this reminds me a lot of baseball like a manager, because I'm looking, 314 00:17:47,279 --> 00:17:48,640 I'm thinking of the Red Sox. I can think of one year when 315 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,440 they had Big Poppy, David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez. I can't remember. 316 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,400 This has some other big names too during that time. But you have similar 317 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,880 behavior patterns, right, You have a lot of these egos floating around and 318 00:18:02,079 --> 00:18:03,240 trying to get it and you have to work everybody together. I see it 319 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,359 more with the Yankees, especially when they start getting new people in. Oh. 320 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:08,759 Yeah, they have a lot of stuff they have to deal with. 321 00:18:10,279 --> 00:18:11,880 Do you see a comparison there, Well, I do, so, you 322 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:17,319 know, look, I'm a baseball nut, and so you know with the 323 00:18:17,319 --> 00:18:18,559 book, it's funny. So some people when they come up and they said, 324 00:18:18,599 --> 00:18:22,039 I loved your book on the CIA. Some people say, I loved 325 00:18:22,039 --> 00:18:25,240 your book on baseball, and then others say, I loved your book in 326 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:29,039 Baseball and the CIA because there's tons of baseball analogies in this book. You 327 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:33,640 know, it's my favorite sport. I think it's the similarities are so extraordinary 328 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,640 where you have to deal with, you know, failing all the time. 329 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,759 So if you hit three hundred as a baseball player, only only ten players 330 00:18:38,759 --> 00:18:42,839 in the National League this year hit three hundred, that's that's it. But 331 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,400 I mean they fail seven out of ten times. Well, same thing in 332 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,319 the espionized business. So we're going out to try to recruit new agents. 333 00:18:48,599 --> 00:18:52,279 You got to overturn rocks. You got to find those, you know, 334 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,920 agent candidates who have the right kind of metal and the right motivations and perhaps 335 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,720 vulnerabilities to decide to spy for the US. So it's the same kind of 336 00:18:59,759 --> 00:19:03,119 thing that you fail a lot in trying to find these these these folks. 337 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,160 So I think that there's there's comparisons, of course on back, but there's 338 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,279 also comparisons, as you said, on ego, there's there's you know, 339 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:12,799 it's to me, it is it it's a you know, it's a it's 340 00:19:12,799 --> 00:19:15,599 pretty hard to hit KRB ball. It's also hard to recruit a Russian. 341 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:22,880 You know that's true. You know that reminds me of it. And I 342 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,880 can't remember this book memories just going to heck, there's an old book that 343 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,720 talked about big sales and the book was talking about copiers. This is years 344 00:19:30,759 --> 00:19:33,799 ago when they were selling copiers, if you remember, and the copiers like 345 00:19:33,839 --> 00:19:37,759 thousands of dollars. This is a big sale item. But it reminds me 346 00:19:37,839 --> 00:19:41,200 of baseball in the sense and the same thing I guess as espionage recruitment because 347 00:19:41,599 --> 00:19:45,200 you would only you would talk to ten or fifteen people, but you only 348 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,319 get one sale out of those ten or twelve, fifteen people. But you're 349 00:19:48,319 --> 00:19:51,200 always looking for the one sale because that would make you a stential amount of 350 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,559 money. So this kind of translates into the sales world as well. It's 351 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,319 exactly the same. And that's I think why a lot of you know, 352 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:00,440 CI case officers when they retire, they go into things like, you know, 353 00:20:00,559 --> 00:20:03,079 sales or business development, because they're very good at that. They're very 354 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:07,240 good at reading people. They're assessing folks. But also you have to have 355 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,519 that kind of intestinal fortitude to fail and just pick you know, pick yourself 356 00:20:11,599 --> 00:20:14,200 up by your bootstrats and keep going. I mean, you know, I 357 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,559 you know, if I would go to a diplomatic perception, I'm trying to 358 00:20:17,599 --> 00:20:18,839 you know, and there's three hundred people there, I'm going to meet every 359 00:20:18,839 --> 00:20:22,480 single one of them, and I might walk away, you know, oh 360 00:20:22,559 --> 00:20:25,279 for three hundred. The next night, I might go out and I might 361 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:26,680 find one or two or interesting, and maybe I'll call them again, and 362 00:20:26,759 --> 00:20:30,000 you start that process of seeing if they have what it takes to work, 363 00:20:30,079 --> 00:20:33,440 you know, clendestinely for the United States government, but you've got to overturn 364 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,720 a lot of rocks. It's the same thing, and you have to have 365 00:20:36,799 --> 00:20:41,920 that intestinal fortitude to to you know, get up every day and and keep 366 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,160 at it. You know, there's there's there is something to be said for 367 00:20:45,559 --> 00:20:48,240 you know, just you know, for it's the same thing. You know, 368 00:20:48,319 --> 00:20:51,680 if if you're in a slump as a baseball player, you know, 369 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:53,640 in one hundred and sixty two game season, you know, baseball players will 370 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,160 go oh for twenty oh for thirty and not even think twice about it, 371 00:20:57,039 --> 00:21:00,519 you know, and well the will the regular mere mortal would be you know, 372 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,200 having a nervous breakdown at that point. But they just know these things 373 00:21:03,279 --> 00:21:07,200 happen. Just keep at it, you know, you keep on grinding through 374 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,039 it. And so I think that's they're really the professions are so similar. 375 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:14,160 That's why there's so many baseball analogies in the book. Yeah. Actually, 376 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,759 I'll keep it on that refrain for a minute, because I know in sales 377 00:21:17,799 --> 00:21:19,279 as well, you need to have a long term mindset, even as a 378 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,039 manager, right, you have to be able to think, I'm going to 379 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:26,759 start planting seeds for recruit and I'm going to plant seeds for sales. I 380 00:21:26,799 --> 00:21:30,119 may not be able to close this deal today, but if I start getting 381 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,160 at least my foot in the door talking to the people, getting some kind 382 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,839 of rapport developed, is that important too? That is everything because at the 383 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,160 end of the day, you know, I'm a US government I was the 384 00:21:40,279 --> 00:21:42,200 US government official, so I you know, I represent the United States government. 385 00:21:42,279 --> 00:21:45,319 So let's say I meet I'll just say a Chinese official at a diplomatic 386 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:49,079 perception. Look, it's how I act. So what do you want to 387 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,880 do? You want to you know, you want to be a good representative 388 00:21:52,079 --> 00:21:56,119 of the United States what we believe in. You want to still be discreete 389 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:57,319 as well, so you know, what I'm not going to do is follow 390 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,160 this guy around or gall around for three hours and have everybody in the room 391 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,039 see me. You want to make enough of an impression, and perhaps you 392 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,960 meet them over time. But maybe that person's not ready. Maybe that person 393 00:22:07,039 --> 00:22:11,480 has some inklings that they want to buy on to the United States, you 394 00:22:11,519 --> 00:22:14,200 know, system and government, but they're not ready. But you know what, 395 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,400 then then they go on ten years later, they are another reception and 396 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,279 they see an American official and they think themselves, you know, I remember 397 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,440 Mark. I remember that guy Mark. He treated me really well. He 398 00:22:22,599 --> 00:22:26,200 was discreet, he was polite, and he showed respect for my people and 399 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,200 my culture clearly, you know, he took the time to learn my language. 400 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,519 And you know what, maybe maybe I do want to talk quietly to 401 00:22:33,559 --> 00:22:37,920 an American and so so it's exactly right, you plant those seeds. Everything 402 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,799 is based on relationships. And I would tell this to my officers all the 403 00:22:41,839 --> 00:22:45,839 time. I certainly tried to, you know, do this myself, because 404 00:22:45,039 --> 00:22:48,559 of course, you know, you have to be the role model for everyone 405 00:22:48,599 --> 00:22:51,920 who's working for you. But it's how you act, you know, and 406 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,799 how you comport yourself is so important. Because again I always would tell people, 407 00:22:55,839 --> 00:22:59,519 you know you you know, you're you're not here just as in a 408 00:22:59,559 --> 00:23:00,559 lot of time. Of course, you're in undercover c O officer of you're 409 00:23:00,559 --> 00:23:04,559 representing the United States government, and that's a really big deal, and that's 410 00:23:04,599 --> 00:23:07,480 something that should be taken very seriously. I always certainly did you know, 411 00:23:07,519 --> 00:23:11,079 the last thing you want to do is go to some diplomat of perception and 412 00:23:11,079 --> 00:23:14,200 get drunk to fall in your face. You know you've embarrassed, you embarrassed 413 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,160 in the US. Why not act professionally, you know, you know, 414 00:23:17,319 --> 00:23:21,400 because you represent what I still believe is the greatest country on Earth. And 415 00:23:21,599 --> 00:23:26,160 uh, and so that was always really important to me. Again, folks, 416 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,359 we're talking to Mark Polymeropolis. You can find its p O L y 417 00:23:30,559 --> 00:23:34,279 M E r O p O U l O S. The book is Clarity 418 00:23:36,279 --> 00:23:41,039 in Crisis Leadership Lessons from the CIA twenty twenty one just came out a few 419 00:23:41,079 --> 00:23:45,440 months ago. Again, Clarity in Crisis Leadership Blessings from the CAA really a 420 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,480 fascinating conversation. But elso reminds me of Mark about the situational awareness a little 421 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,960 bit, because I see a lot of individuals that I've spoken with have been 422 00:23:52,039 --> 00:23:57,440 operators in the CIA, have been special forces that have worked in the Special 423 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:02,599 Activities Center and things of that nature. But one of the things I hear 424 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,839 about it is a lot of times blending in, and in today's society we 425 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:11,599 see kind of a weird Some people are trying to act like they are aware 426 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,160 of this and they say, you will be a gray man. But sometimes 427 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:15,880 you just can't fit in this certain country. It just won't work. But 428 00:24:17,559 --> 00:24:21,680 you can blend in culturally, you can blend in by learning. How does 429 00:24:21,759 --> 00:24:25,160 that fit in this? Well, it's everything. I mean, what a 430 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:26,920 tremendous question, because at the end of the day, what I always would 431 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:32,079 want my officers to be is not only the smartest person in that country, 432 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,400 but someone who knew the culture and who knew the language. And it does 433 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,440 so much for you for so many reasons. So let's start with Well, 434 00:24:37,519 --> 00:24:41,799 first of all, the blending in part is huge. So our job oversees 435 00:24:41,799 --> 00:24:45,480 as a CA officer, oftentimes you were there not as a CA officer, 436 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,480 you're you're there as in a covert capacity because our job is to spot, 437 00:24:48,519 --> 00:24:52,759 assess, develop, recruit, and handle agents spies, and so you have 438 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,480 to be able to be on the street, no matter what you look like, 439 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,119 and blend in. Well, I'll tell you, if you speak the 440 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,279 language, if you know the culture, certainly, if you can read street 441 00:25:02,319 --> 00:25:06,079 signs, for God's sakes, you know, you know, you're you're gonna 442 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,640 you're gonna blend in so much more. But there's also the part of just 443 00:25:08,759 --> 00:25:11,960 you know, being comfortable in that foreign environment. So let's say, in 444 00:25:12,039 --> 00:25:15,519 my circumstance, you know, those of us in the nearest operations we learned 445 00:25:15,519 --> 00:25:18,440 Arabic, But what does that really mean? As you learned about the Arabic 446 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,920 language, for sure, if you always learned about Arabic culture and history, 447 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,319 religion, so so as you go to a country you were able to really 448 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,160 converse with the people and and identify with them. I remember one time, 449 00:25:30,599 --> 00:25:33,079 you know, and uh uh, and you know, I was dealing with 450 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,599 someone. You know, the Bath Party was a very dominant political party in 451 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,440 Iraq for years and years, and I remember talking to an Iraqi one time, 452 00:25:41,519 --> 00:25:44,440 the first time I had met this man, and you know, I 453 00:25:44,519 --> 00:25:45,480 said, I said to him, I said, let's talk about the difference 454 00:25:45,519 --> 00:25:48,240 between the Syrian and the Iraqi Bath parties. And he looked at me, 455 00:25:48,279 --> 00:25:52,400 he said I can't believe I'm talking to an American about this, And I 456 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:53,279 said why, I said, well, I'm stunned you took the time to 457 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,039 learn. I said, well, I really know the history of it, 458 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:00,599 so let's talk about it. What does that do we immediately developed or with 459 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,559 the person you're speaking with. One of the great things that I found about 460 00:26:04,599 --> 00:26:08,480 CIO officers is they really took the time to do this, and our foreign 461 00:26:08,519 --> 00:26:14,160 intelocerateurs at the very least would really respect that. We really wanted to kind 462 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:15,640 of get to know the country, you know, where they're coming from. 463 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,519 Because ultimately, I'm not saying I'm better than them. I want them to 464 00:26:18,559 --> 00:26:22,279 do something for the United States government, but I'm not saying I'm better than 465 00:26:22,279 --> 00:26:25,160 them. And I took years to get to know you know, their their 466 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,079 culture, their language, and their history of their religion. So I think 467 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:32,319 it's absolutely critical that is that the number one trait for a CIO officer is 468 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,519 to be able to to really immerse themselves in the countries you know, where 469 00:26:36,559 --> 00:26:37,759 they go, because at the end of the day, I would always want 470 00:26:37,799 --> 00:26:41,640 to tell the US ambassador and the embassy, my guys in Gallas know the 471 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,880 street more than anyone here, and I'll never forget. I'll tell you one 472 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,640 last girl, I'll never forget. There was a congressional delegation one time. 473 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,200 I was serving in the Middle East. Then Nancy Pelosi can with a huge 474 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,920 congressional delegation, and the US ambassador literally said to her because she said, 475 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,279 what's going on here? She said, go talk to the deputy station he 476 00:27:00,319 --> 00:27:02,920 said. The bachelor said, go talk to Mark palm Wopples. He knows 477 00:27:03,039 --> 00:27:06,920 this country. And then that was one of the proudest moments I had because 478 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,599 I write down and like, we got this, and it's true. That's 479 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,160 amazing, that's cool, it's interesting. I know I've done some work. 480 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:21,160 I we'll mention who for what, But it required getting to know individuals are 481 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:26,240 a particular country. And what I was doing was going to coffee shops, 482 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,119 taxi drivers, uber drivers, and just hey, tell me a little bit 483 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,519 about your What did you guys have for breakfast around here? What do you 484 00:27:33,559 --> 00:27:36,640 guys do for this? And then you started creeping into other questions like what's 485 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,640 the police when you call somebody? If somebody robbed your house, what do 486 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,160 you do? And you started learning and I remember doing some work for the 487 00:27:42,599 --> 00:27:47,240 regrets to the cartel stuff, And it was amazing how you started getting information. 488 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,119 I didn't even ask all of a sudden, Oh, my cousins, 489 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:52,279 do you want to speak to it? He's part of the cartel. No, 490 00:27:52,279 --> 00:27:55,279 I don't want to speak to him, but I just need to. 491 00:27:55,839 --> 00:27:59,319 It's interesting keep telling me more about it. Did you find that sometimes when 492 00:27:59,319 --> 00:28:02,400 you develop a port a, people open up to you absolutely, you know, 493 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:03,559 and that that's you know, that's the beauty. And so there's so 494 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,640 many different types of information that I would need. So first of all, 495 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:11,640 obviously I would need the plans and intentions of X y Z country as president. 496 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:12,960 Well, I'm not going to get that from the folks in the street. 497 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:15,319 But what I will get is, hey, you know someone who was 498 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,359 hanging around the house the other day and I'd be like, ah, really 499 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,319 okay, or there's there you know we've had I was, you know, 500 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,880 my family was in situations where we're in the Middle Eastern country there's riots in 501 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,960 the streets, but we've become so close with our neighbors they would say, 502 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,920 we'll protect you. I mean, there's there's a hundred different reasons why this 503 00:28:30,039 --> 00:28:36,079 is important, and because because ultimately especially in the Middle East. I found 504 00:28:36,799 --> 00:28:38,799 with the our world and and with Arabs in general, who I I just 505 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:44,119 you know, developed this incredible closeness and affinity for is that family and personal 506 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,960 relationships are everything. I literally would have have individuals. So you know, 507 00:28:48,079 --> 00:28:52,039 as we recruited someone from x y z our country, oftentimes they would tell 508 00:28:52,079 --> 00:28:53,359 me Mark, I'm not even doing this with the United States. I'm doing 509 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,960 this for you because you spent time getting to know me and my family, 510 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,359 and I believe in the United States. But this is because of you, 511 00:28:59,799 --> 00:29:03,559 and so you know, that's why these personal relationships are are so important. 512 00:29:03,599 --> 00:29:06,079 And and you know again it's the quote that the quote, you know, 513 00:29:06,319 --> 00:29:10,640 you know the SAI case officers got to know the street and especially when we 514 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,519 go to third world countries where there is so much instability, uh, because 515 00:29:14,559 --> 00:29:17,640 you don't know. I never wanted my officers. I never wanted for myself 516 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,960 to be stuck at a US facility, an embassy, of military base, 517 00:29:21,039 --> 00:29:22,480 whatever, you know. And God blessed the US military. And I have 518 00:29:22,519 --> 00:29:26,440 tons of friends who have served, but you know, sometimes friends might be 519 00:29:26,519 --> 00:29:29,720 like I served for a year at a US military base in Saudi Arabia and 520 00:29:29,799 --> 00:29:33,079 my response would be, you don't know anything about Saudi Arabia. Now, 521 00:29:33,119 --> 00:29:36,519 if you told me you lived on the local economy, that's one thing. 522 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:38,920 But boy, we got to be out on the street and you got to 523 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:41,000 know you know, uh, you know, you know that city, know 524 00:29:41,079 --> 00:29:45,359 that country more than you know. I hope I would want my officers to 525 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,799 be the smartest person in that country. Period. That's a great point. 526 00:29:48,839 --> 00:29:52,960 And those bases are like little Americas. They really don't they don't get a 527 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,759 whole lot out of it. You know. It leads me to I guess 528 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,799 another question in regards to people are probably going to be saying, well, 529 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:06,200 listen, you're you're a twenty six year veteran the CIA, you're well educated, 530 00:30:06,359 --> 00:30:08,799 you probably didn't make very mistakes, any mistakes that you've made as a 531 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:15,039 leader, and you stood out for you Oh boy, word it again. 532 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,440 And so one of the things that I was I'm very clear about in the 533 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,759 book, certainly clear about when I just want to do leadership talks and when 534 00:30:22,759 --> 00:30:26,240 I speak is that I have had tremendous success and I've had tremendous failure. 535 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,200 So I was I will say, you know, in my basement, you 536 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:30,799 know I'll go down there with a scotch at night and look at all those 537 00:30:30,839 --> 00:30:33,680 metals that you know on my shelf gathering gust. And it doesn't really mean 538 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,720 anything, frankly, because you know, you know, it just those are 539 00:30:37,759 --> 00:30:40,160 things in the past. But you know, some of the failures I've I've 540 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,240 had have led to the losses of agents, have led to the loss of 541 00:30:44,319 --> 00:30:48,720 life of CIO officers. I screwed up a lot, and I also succeeded 542 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,039 a lot. And I say that, you know, kind of in a 543 00:30:52,119 --> 00:30:55,480 flat tone, because that was the career of someone who just you know, 544 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,200 was kind of in the arena. I certainly tried to learn from failing. 545 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,319 Uh, but but I had, you know, I went through some tremendous 546 00:31:03,359 --> 00:31:06,039 adversity. Uh. You know, I had to stand up in front of, 547 00:31:06,599 --> 00:31:08,119 you know, a station of four hundred people and tell them that one 548 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,359 of our colleagues was just killed and an operation that we ran that was extraordinarily 549 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:18,680 horrible, and even in dealing with his family and something I'll never forget, 550 00:31:18,799 --> 00:31:21,359 and you know it, it tore me apart. I remember when I was 551 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,079 promoted to the Senior Intelligence Service that's the equivalent of general officer rank in the 552 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,599 US military. So I'm there and even in the promotion ceremony, my parents 553 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:32,240 are there. It's a this is a tremendous deal in the CIA to rise 554 00:31:32,319 --> 00:31:34,039 up to what we call SIS, the Senior Intelligence Service. And all I 555 00:31:34,079 --> 00:31:37,839 could think about was that, you know, an operation, you know, 556 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,839 years earlier, where I made some mistakes and someone had died. Uh, 557 00:31:41,039 --> 00:31:45,480 and so uh, you know, it's a it's it's a it's a it's 558 00:31:45,519 --> 00:31:48,720 a job. It's a profession where you know, really bad things can happen 559 00:31:48,799 --> 00:31:51,960 sometimes. And so you know, I'm not I always I have tons of 560 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,319 friends who are former seals, current seals too, but for former seals, 561 00:31:55,559 --> 00:31:56,119 and I always joke at them. I said, you know, you know, 562 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:57,960 you guys, when you go through BUDS training, you get your book 563 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,680 deal and then you and you know, you're pound your chest and let's go 564 00:32:01,799 --> 00:32:05,599 charge the hill. That's their leadership. That's not what I talk I love 565 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,200 those guys, but that's not what I talk about in the book. I 566 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,559 talk about. You know, one of the principles is adverse. I call 567 00:32:09,599 --> 00:32:14,960 it adversity is the performance enhancing drug to success because I always talk about you 568 00:32:15,079 --> 00:32:17,640 have to really hit rock bottom and fail before you can really grow as a 569 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,960 leader. And that's certainly was the case for me. So you know, 570 00:32:21,079 --> 00:32:23,880 my book is not it's a it's a it's certainly certainly it's a lot of 571 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,160 humility involved there. But I went through some really hard times and some really 572 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,480 great times, and you know that's the nature of the business, you know, 573 00:32:30,599 --> 00:32:35,640 unfortunately it can be pretty unforgiving at times. That's the great thing about 574 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,119 your book is it's it's row in a sense. It really does doesn't gloss 575 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,240 over things. It gets really specific in detail, just like we're doing right 576 00:32:43,319 --> 00:32:45,319 now and talking about it. Obviously really in touching the tip of the iceberg, 577 00:32:45,359 --> 00:32:51,119 folks. But still you get into a lot of practical application I don't 578 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,279 always see in leadership. You see a lot of maxims being thrown and a 579 00:32:54,359 --> 00:32:58,359 lot of generalities. Hey, you got to motivate your people, and that's 580 00:32:58,359 --> 00:33:00,440 at the end of it, you know, buy them an apple or something, 581 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,079 and it's just kind of what do I do with this? But you 582 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:07,440 actually got much more specific in the book, which was cool. Sure, 583 00:33:07,559 --> 00:33:09,400 So so I take nine principles. You know that again I've learned on the 584 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:13,079 streets of the Third World and it's and it's how to lead in times of 585 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,480 crisis, you know again that place where my happy place was when kind of 586 00:33:15,519 --> 00:33:19,559 the crap hit the fan. But it's But so when I go through them 587 00:33:19,599 --> 00:33:22,480 and each principle, they're basic. But then what I'll do at the end 588 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,759 of the section is I go through a checklist and I will engage with the 589 00:33:24,839 --> 00:33:28,799 reader or the listener now or if I'm doing a speech, and say, 590 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,000 okay, this is what I said. Tell me a time where you you 591 00:33:31,079 --> 00:33:34,279 know, you know, I'll go over a principle. I call it the 592 00:33:34,319 --> 00:33:37,440 blue guy or the blue gal. And that's the idea that you know that 593 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,839 you have to identify and cultivate those indispensable members of your team, and you 594 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,039 have to do two things with them. You have to reward them for success. 595 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:45,920 You have to involve them and your planning. And I go over examples 596 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,640 in my kind of former, you know, line of work. So these 597 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,519 would be the support personnel. We're running a high value target operation in a 598 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,920 rock. We we capture one of the remember the former the deck of fifty 599 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,480 five cards. These are Saddam's henchmen. We capture one, we get all 600 00:34:00,519 --> 00:34:02,839 sorts of praise it's it's you know, it's splashed all over you know, 601 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,920 every news outlet in the in the world. And so we're all thinking, 602 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,599 we're kind of pretty pretty kind of a bunch of bad dudes doing this. 603 00:34:09,679 --> 00:34:13,239 But you know what, what about the support person now, who helped us, 604 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,039 they should be just as just as rewarded. So but I so, 605 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,360 so I'll go over a principle like that. But then as I engage, 606 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:21,679 I'll say, okay, for you the listener right now, you know who 607 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,639 in your organization and your business unit is the gluegal or the glue guy. 608 00:34:25,039 --> 00:34:29,119 I did this speech, this, this exact talk for a bunch of Fairfax 609 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,079 County teachers of all things. And what I love about the book is I 610 00:34:31,159 --> 00:34:36,239 made this applicable. One of my stepbrother he's an er doctor in Brooklyn. 611 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,320 He's like, your book better be applicable to a librarian, like, don't 612 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:43,159 don't give me this stuff about all the former intellencepecops folks, like it's got 613 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,559 to apply to everybody. So what I did is, at the end of 614 00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:47,320 each principle, just like this, the glue guy, the glue ass With 615 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,519 these teachers, I said to the teachers, who's your glue guy, gluegal 616 00:34:51,559 --> 00:34:53,559 and immediately administrator raised our hand. They said, it's the it folks, 617 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:59,119 our computer folks at Fairfax County one hundred percent right, you got it. 618 00:34:59,199 --> 00:35:01,360 And so that's why I want to engage and have it be really practical, 619 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,320 because if you walk away from this and you kind of you know, you 620 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,679 go over the you know, the practical steps. And then my contention is 621 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,000 when times are tough, you're going to be able to be a much better 622 00:35:10,079 --> 00:35:14,239 leader. You're gonna have the confidence to make decisions when when in the past 623 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:19,559 you wouldn't. Great points and it rs it binds me also a baseball where 624 00:35:19,679 --> 00:35:22,119 sometimes we can be it can be dangerous because we can get a little too 625 00:35:22,159 --> 00:35:27,440 over confident. I know they talked about the CIA decades ago when they went 626 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,320 into the Bay of Pigs. Some speculate they got a little too over confident 627 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:34,880 with past missions prior to it. I think it was operation It wasn't just 628 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,320 cause that was way after, but there's a couple of other operations prior to 629 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,519 the Bay of Pigs where they've had very successful. It was really quick they 630 00:35:40,599 --> 00:35:45,079 eliminated that They've got whatever they wanted to do. The overthrow and then came 631 00:35:45,119 --> 00:35:47,119 over to the Bay of Pigs and it didn't work. But even in baseball, 632 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,519 right, you have a hot streak and maybe you get a little too 633 00:35:50,599 --> 00:35:52,920 cocky, or you win a ballgame, you crush them ten to two. 634 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,000 I don't know by you, but I've seen a lot of games when they 635 00:35:55,039 --> 00:35:58,679 went ten to two, I'm not too excited about the next game. Is 636 00:35:58,679 --> 00:36:04,880 I'm worrying? Right? Are they a little too overconfident now? But oh 637 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,440 my goodness, it's exactly right, you know. That's that's that's another principle 638 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,320 of mind from the book. I call it humility is best served warm. 639 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:14,400 And so my contention is, you know, you better not believe your own 640 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,920 hype, you know, and because really, you know, great leaders own 641 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:21,639 mistakes and learn and pour one scapegoat and deflect, and so don't believe in 642 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,639 your own hype is a critical piece because we can have tremendous operational success and 643 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:29,599 the next day something catastrophic happens. You know, I give this, I'll 644 00:36:29,599 --> 00:36:31,320 tell you a story. Uh, and it's it's you know, it's it's 645 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,800 from the HarperCollins is like every time you do a podcast, don't tell every 646 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:37,320 story in the book. No one's gonna buy the book afterwards. But this 647 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,239 is this is a great story. I was. I was serving in an 648 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:44,519 operational unit in which, you know, and we had we had a critical 649 00:36:45,079 --> 00:36:46,679 mission, which was, you know, to protect the homeland, protect the 650 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:51,440 United States from from al Qaeda from terrorist attack, and so our job was 651 00:36:51,519 --> 00:36:54,320 to it was was in essence, to to you know, find those responsible 652 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:59,159 for planning and then uh, you know, conducting attacks and stopping them from 653 00:36:59,199 --> 00:37:01,840 doing so in any way means we could. So what in an operation we 654 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:06,880 ran with the US military, we unfortunately, and this was overseas, we 655 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,280 incurred what's called sivcast civilian casualties. So there were some civilians injured in an 656 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:15,679 operation to take down serious terrorists. But that that that that that kind of 657 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:20,400 that point of civilian casualties is something that that CI takes really seriously. It's 658 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,719 it's kind of that area where where it's an absolute no go and so and 659 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,760 everyone's pissed at us for this. The White House is mad, the senior 660 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,719 CI leadership is mad. So I go as as the head of this unit, 661 00:37:30,119 --> 00:37:34,199 I go up and I brief the CI leadership team, which unfortunately is 662 00:37:34,199 --> 00:37:37,920 about forty people in a conference room all staring at me because I've screwed up, 663 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,360 because are my team screwed up? And and and so and and there's 664 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,760 there's a point of this about humility. So what I walked in there, 665 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:45,519 but I did a couple of things. I walked in. I explain what 666 00:37:45,639 --> 00:37:49,280 happened, you know, and and then I said, these are the four 667 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,519 things that we did wrong. And by the way, this is all on 668 00:37:52,639 --> 00:37:53,920 me. I'm the leader of the of the unit, so this is my 669 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:58,119 fault. Nobody else is. And these are the five six things that we've 670 00:37:58,159 --> 00:38:00,360 done immediately before this meeting to fay to this so it never happens again. 671 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:05,760 So I took ownership. I told them what happened, and I and I 672 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:07,199 put the I put the you know, the fixes in place already. And 673 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:12,159 as I stopped the briefing, I said, any questions and that this is 674 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:14,559 at the time, you know, the director of the CIA, the deputy 675 00:38:14,559 --> 00:38:16,039 director, the whole leadership team is silent. And they said no, And 676 00:38:16,119 --> 00:38:19,440 so I left. And as I walked out, I was like, oh 677 00:38:19,559 --> 00:38:22,039 my goodness, I'm I'm in Troupmann. Get relieved for this. You know 678 00:38:22,159 --> 00:38:24,719 that that didn't go well. But a very senior operational Uh uh. My 679 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,639 member from the director of operations came up to me, a senior leader, 680 00:38:28,679 --> 00:38:30,800 and he said, hey, that was that was really good. And I 681 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:31,679 said why. I said, well, because he owned it. And the 682 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:37,840 fact that there was no questions means a they know that you took responsibility for 683 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:39,639 this, and that's the idea of kind of extreme ownership. And then you 684 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,400 fixed it, and so we have confidence in you to move forward. And 685 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,320 I walked back down. So then my my my leadership has confidence to me. 686 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:50,239 I go to my team and the team is also worried too, and 687 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:51,960 I said, what happened? I said, well, I took response. 688 00:38:52,079 --> 00:38:53,880 I knew people on my team screwed up, but I didn't I didn't throw 689 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:58,079 them under the bus. I said, I took responsibility. We're gonna be 690 00:38:58,079 --> 00:39:00,039 fine, We're going to fix this, We're going to move forward. And 691 00:39:00,119 --> 00:39:04,360 so what happens there you build this incredible loyalty with your staff, so so 692 00:39:04,679 --> 00:39:07,719 you know, and that's the whole point of humility. We're in this incredible 693 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,199 kind of rock star unit that's doing great things to protect America. We screwed 694 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,880 up, we owned it, and then we moved on and So that's why 695 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,239 I always say, you know, just be careful, you know, in 696 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,960 terms of how you know, how you walk down walk down those hallways. 697 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,480 Don't believe your own hype all the time. Humility is a really good trade 698 00:39:22,519 --> 00:39:25,719 to have. Absolutely make a great point. I mean, a lot of 699 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:30,800 especially in today's society, we see a lot of deferring of blame and not 700 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,960 owning up to our own mistakes. I think a lot of people are afraid 701 00:39:35,039 --> 00:39:37,159 to make mistakes in today's world. It seems like, well, I mean, 702 00:39:37,199 --> 00:39:39,840 look, the only way you're going to you know again, it's my 703 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,840 contention, is the only way you're going to succeed as a unit, to 704 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:45,760 see as a leader, is to fail and then and then you have to 705 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,519 learn from it. But that adversity, it's okay, you know. Here's 706 00:39:49,559 --> 00:39:52,199 some baseball analogies. So in two thousand and three, New York Yankees beat 707 00:39:52,199 --> 00:39:55,079 the Boston Red Sox four games to three. Aaron Boone hits a walk off 708 00:39:55,119 --> 00:39:59,119 in game seven. In two thousand and three, two thousand and four, 709 00:39:59,199 --> 00:40:01,760 the Red Sox are down three games to none of the Yankees but Kevin Malar, 710 00:40:02,199 --> 00:40:06,280 who incidentally is a classic blue guy who played for the Red Sox utility 711 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,360 player gets up and says, we're going to shock the world. And they 712 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:12,920 go and they win four straight games to beat the Yankees. But my contention, 713 00:40:13,159 --> 00:40:15,360 and this is this is kind of a this is you know, it's 714 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,880 not it's you can understand so much as there's no way they win an O 715 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,000 four if they hadn't failed in O three. That team was so tough that 716 00:40:23,119 --> 00:40:25,199 even in O four they were down three games to none, They're like, 717 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:29,920 we already hit rock bottom last year, you know, and and so and 718 00:40:30,039 --> 00:40:32,800 so they had that kind of intestinal fortitude and that that kind of mental makeup 719 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:37,280 to succeed and and and win four straight. And look, I always talked 720 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:43,119 about Michael Jordan got cut from his high school basketball team. Okay, you 721 00:40:43,159 --> 00:40:45,599 know, so you got to just pull yourself up. You're gonna fail sometimes, 722 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:47,440 gonna go through adversity, and it's it's how you react is really what's 723 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,280 going to define you. I guess my last question again, folks. The 724 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,679 book is called Clarity and Crisis. The author is Mark poly Moropolis. Mark. 725 00:40:54,760 --> 00:41:00,480 My last question would be risk taking. Some people get little scared about 726 00:41:00,559 --> 00:41:04,480 risk taking, Burt, Does that define a good leader? Is there the 727 00:41:04,679 --> 00:41:07,440 times we do take risk, at times you don't. How does that work 728 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:09,360 well? For I mean, so so you know, everything about CIA is 729 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:15,239 taking what I call smart measured calculated risk. So in what we do on 730 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:20,079 running operations is there's always risk verus gain. So you can't recruit and handle 731 00:41:20,159 --> 00:41:23,159 a spy being terrified of getting caught, even though we're going to do everything 732 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:28,719 possible. Sometimes they get caught. There's diplomatic incidents unfortunately. Sometimes you know, 733 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,000 it can be you know, terrible result with the with the with the 734 00:41:31,079 --> 00:41:34,760 agent we have, you know, perhaps jail or even kill it. But 735 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,920 there's always that risk. You mitigate it. You take smart calculated you know, 736 00:41:38,039 --> 00:41:42,800 measured risk. But in kind of the in the world of espionage, 737 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,000 that's a risk is everything. And uh and so you know, if if 738 00:41:45,079 --> 00:41:47,840 if, if, if you can't handle that, you're in the wrong line 739 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:52,679 work. And some people can't that's okay, you know, but I mean, 740 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:53,800 take a look at their raid on a Badabad, you know, the 741 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:59,599 raid to capture Asama bin Laden. There was a the confidence level of kind 742 00:41:59,599 --> 00:42:01,679 of the sea your leadership with the US government was that he about sixty percent 743 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:06,519 he was there. It's pretty extraordin I mean so, and I give President 744 00:42:06,559 --> 00:42:08,599 Obama again in a non partisan fashion, I give him a lot of credit 745 00:42:08,679 --> 00:42:12,679 for giving the go ahead and that operation when there's when people said there's a 746 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,239 sixty percent chance and there's a forty percent chance he's not there, and we 747 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:20,440 just launched a raid into Pakistan. Holy crap. You know there's going to 748 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,760 be hell to pay for that. So but you see, you take smart, 749 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,639 measured calculated risk. And you know what I would tell my officers all 750 00:42:25,679 --> 00:42:30,920 the time is operations sometimes fail. But if you can explain to me what 751 00:42:30,039 --> 00:42:35,239 you did and you had a thought process going through, then I'm okay with 752 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,159 that. It's it's it's times where you kind of ignore, you know, 753 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,320 certain you know, standard operating procedures, or you take shortcuts where you can 754 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:44,480 get in trouble. But if you know. But but my contention is, 755 00:42:44,599 --> 00:42:45,920 you know, you know, risk is something that should be absolutely kind of 756 00:42:47,039 --> 00:42:51,119 embraced again in my old line of work, but you can think even now. 757 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,599 So I love I do a lot of talks with small businesses or entrepreneurs, 758 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:58,199 and they love this stuff because that's what they do. They take risk 759 00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:01,800 all the time. And and and you know there's there's a leadership principle I 760 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:05,480 have that's called win and Oscar and the whole idea that is, as a 761 00:43:05,559 --> 00:43:07,719 leader, you have to stand up and people are looking at you all the 762 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:13,480 time. It's really important how you kind of uh uh comport yourself, especially 763 00:43:13,519 --> 00:43:15,079 when times are tough. So I give, I have all my stories of 764 00:43:15,599 --> 00:43:19,920 operations in the Middle East and the war zones. A small business owner, 765 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:21,639 an entrepreneur one time said to me, he goes, you know what, 766 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:23,239 you know when I had to win an oscar or I had to stand up 767 00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:27,360 in front of my employees and said, I can't make payroll. I'm sorry, 768 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,639 but it might be And I said, oh, you mean like that 769 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:31,559 week. He goes, no that day like I you know, and so 770 00:43:32,199 --> 00:43:35,159 but but you know what, I got up there and I said, like, 771 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,039 we might not be able to pay you today, but we're going to 772 00:43:37,079 --> 00:43:39,519 get through this. I can promise you. And so you know, there's 773 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:43,920 that, you know that the idea of risk taking, I think it can 774 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:45,960 be in lots of different lines of work, but I think this, you 775 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,800 know, my book and the leadership principles are kind of kind of it's very 776 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,880 self explanatory and how you can really take smart and measured calculated risk and succeed. 777 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,480 And you're gonna fail sometimes, but hopefully you're going to succeed a hell 778 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:59,840 of a lot more. Absolutely again, folks, the book is Clarity and 779 00:44:00,039 --> 00:44:02,639 Vices Leadership Lessons from the CIA, and get a kindle, audio book and 780 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:07,119 hardcover. I tell you like to read it, I go either way. 781 00:44:07,119 --> 00:44:09,960 Mark, thank you so much again for taking the time to be with us 782 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,480 today. Thanks. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. It was so 783 00:44:13,639 --> 00:44:15,599 much recovered. And again we only touched the tip of your iceberg of your 784 00:44:15,599 --> 00:44:20,480 book. That's right. So there, well, Harp will be happy. 785 00:44:20,519 --> 00:44:23,840 I didn't give away the whole time. That's right. Many more stories in 786 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:28,119 the book. Thanks again, Thank you everyone for listening. Make sure to 787 00:44:28,199 --> 00:44:30,960 share, subscribe, and hit that I like button. Catch you next time.