1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,719 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,079 Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,799 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:50,159 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley and 10 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:54,479 I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined again by author John Glatt, here to 11 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:59,039 talk to us about his new book, Tangled Vines, Power Privilege in the 12 00:00:59,119 --> 00:01:03,359 Murdoch Family Murders. John, thank you for joining us again on Mind over 13 00:01:03,439 --> 00:01:07,319 Murder. You keep for having me so it was a pleasure. Tell us 14 00:01:07,359 --> 00:01:10,480 about what you've been up to since the last time we talked to you. 15 00:01:10,719 --> 00:01:12,959 We had you on to talk about The Doomsday Mother, which we loved, 16 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,439 and actually I think I loved Tangled Vines a lot more. But talk to 17 00:01:17,519 --> 00:01:21,000 us a little bit about what you've been doing since then. Actually, after 18 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:26,120 The Doomsday Mother, I threw myself right into Tangled Vines the best part of 19 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:30,760 two years, and I didn't think I've had any book with so much research. 20 00:01:30,799 --> 00:01:34,480 I had to buy new furniture just to keep the files because it was 21 00:01:34,519 --> 00:01:40,239 just growing exponiciously. Almost every day there'd be something new and it was very 22 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:44,640 hard to keep up with. So that ent be pretty busy. And since 23 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,319 I finished it a few months ago, I've just been taking this summer off 24 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:52,239 and relaxing. Gosh, I can understand that. Tell us a little bit 25 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:56,480 about your research process then, because as you said, this is a massive 26 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,840 case and there is so much that had to have gone into this really even 27 00:02:00,959 --> 00:02:06,120 start, it's labyrinthin really as so many different strands. Basically, I started 28 00:02:06,159 --> 00:02:09,000 by going down to Hampton. Took myself down for the best part of a 29 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:15,240 month to Hampton in South Carolina, to the low Country to try and get 30 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:21,000 a feel for the place and meet as many people that knew the Murdocks as 31 00:02:21,039 --> 00:02:23,800 I could, and it was a very educational visit. You know. It 32 00:02:23,879 --> 00:02:28,000 took a lot of time to get to know the people. A lot of 33 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:32,479 people that was getting so much publicity by that time after the murders of Mackie 34 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:38,759 and Paul that were people with closed rags for the Murdocks. So I took 35 00:02:38,759 --> 00:02:44,319 a lot of talking and socializing getting to know the various people to get the 36 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:49,439 interviews I was looking for. My next question was going to be how open 37 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:54,400 were those residents in Hampton County to talking about the Murdock It's a small community, 38 00:02:54,560 --> 00:03:00,159 is it not very small? Everybody knows everybody else. The Murdocks, 39 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:06,199 through Alex, his father, grandfather and greatfather great grandfather have ruled the low 40 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:12,520 Country and the five counties as solicitors and powerbrokers for about one hundred and ten 41 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,080 years, so they know everybody. And there was a certain amount of fear 42 00:03:15,439 --> 00:03:21,479 about talking about the Murdocks. People were very closed up. They were worried 43 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,560 that they didn't want anything to come out in prints against them. But as 44 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:29,719 things went on they relaxed and became more open. But there was a protective 45 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:34,520 shield for the Murdocks and they liked them where they genuinely. I think the 46 00:03:34,599 --> 00:03:38,479 Murdocks helped a lot of people. When somebody had a fire or something, 47 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:44,199 they would give some money to rebuild. Somebody had an illness, they would 48 00:03:44,199 --> 00:03:47,439 pay hospital fees. So there was a lot of good will generated for the 49 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:54,240 Murdocks too. That surprises me on some level because of the characterizations of the 50 00:03:54,319 --> 00:04:00,800 Murdochs seemed so dark or maybe now in retrospect you actually found there were positive 51 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:05,080 perceptions of the family when you were talking to people and trying to draw them 52 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:10,039 out. Oh. Absolutely, there were two. There was the public Murdocks 53 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:15,360 and maybe you could say the private side. People saw the public Murdocks who 54 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,759 were back slapping, they shake your hand. Alex Murdoch, for instance, 55 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:24,079 knew everybody by name, and he'd walked past them in the street and he'd 56 00:04:24,079 --> 00:04:30,040 say hi, ask about their family. He was a genuinely gifted politician and 57 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,399 he engendered a lot of goodwill because of this. So I think people felt 58 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:39,240 protective again against them for the Murdocks, which I think, as you said, 59 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,759 Bill would surprise a lot of people. But that was something I found 60 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,560 definitely. What did you have to do to get people to open up to 61 00:04:46,639 --> 00:04:49,360 you. Did you have to socialize a lot or was it enough to say, 62 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,680 hello, I'm an author and I'm interested in writing about this case. 63 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,360 What did you need to do to get people to open up to you. 64 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,959 I just had to tell them where I was coming from. I'd written these 65 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,839 books before. Sometimes I would give people books of mine that's been published, 66 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:08,240 just so they could get a feel for what I was doing and where I 67 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:12,279 was at. I have a total respect for everybody I interviewed. That taught 68 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,879 me something Off the record, I wouldn't use it. Also, there are 69 00:05:15,879 --> 00:05:18,360 a lot of people in this book that I can't name because it would be 70 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:23,480 dangerous for them for their livelihoods or something. So I had to give them 71 00:05:23,519 --> 00:05:27,600 pseudonyms. But that was to protect them. But I think once people got 72 00:05:27,639 --> 00:05:30,879 to know me and feel comfortable with me, they would open up. That's 73 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:35,800 the fact that your accent stands out anywhere you go in the United States. 74 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:40,839 Here you are. I have stings an Englishman in New York in my head 75 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:45,120 as I say this, so it's obvious you're not from around here. As 76 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,480 you travel around. Does that work to your benefit because you're seen as exotic 77 00:05:48,879 --> 00:05:54,240 or does it make you stand out because you're clearly not from the Low Country. 78 00:05:54,759 --> 00:05:58,040 How funny you should mention stings the Englishmen in New York. Is I 79 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,240 actually knew quinc and Crisp and spend time with him when I first came to 80 00:06:01,319 --> 00:06:06,279 New York forty years ago. They to the song's about. But as far 81 00:06:06,319 --> 00:06:11,279 as my acsence concerned, it depends where you are. Sometimes it will work 82 00:06:11,439 --> 00:06:15,079 for me and sometimes it won't work for me at all. You can never 83 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,279 really tell. And I think the longer I've been here, the more Brits 84 00:06:17,319 --> 00:06:21,959 are coming to America. It's not such an unusual absence as it was when 85 00:06:21,959 --> 00:06:26,879 I first arrived forty years ago. But it can play to your advantage and 86 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,040 it can also play to your disadvantage. Though it's a toss up. What 87 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:34,480 would you say are some of the most surprising things that you learned about the 88 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:40,480 Murdoch family and their history in Hampton County as you were going through this research 89 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:46,199 process. Yeah, I think how they operated as a family and as the 90 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:53,319 family law firm PMPED, which Alex's great grandfather I found it in nineteen ten. 91 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:58,839 They basically had Hampton and they had five counties. It's the biggest kind 92 00:06:58,879 --> 00:07:04,680 of low countries. Biggest constituency legal constituency in South Carolina, and the murders 93 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:11,639 controlled it. They also controlled the juries. When you had civil plaintiff actions. 94 00:07:12,199 --> 00:07:16,319 There was a shopping venue thing in South Carolina, so depending it didn't 95 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,879 matter where you had the accidents. It could be some other state. As 96 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:28,000 long as the person the company was suing had a presence in Hampton or four 97 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,560 other counties, they could be sued there. So that's why all these hugely 98 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:36,519 big lawsuits came to Hampton, and that's why they were good to the people 99 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:43,360 in Hampton, because the Hampton jurors were synonymous with giving huge cash payouts, 100 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,279 bigger than anywhere else. And that's one of the most interesting things I discovered. 101 00:07:47,319 --> 00:07:54,759 In fact, the railroad CSX runs directly through South Carolina and through Hampton, 102 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,959 so anytime there was a train accident or something, it would come to 103 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:05,800 a Hampton jury. The interesting thing about that is Alex's great grandfather, Randolph 104 00:08:05,959 --> 00:08:11,439 Senior, actually was killed by a train by the same company in another incarnation 105 00:08:11,639 --> 00:08:16,399 in nineteen twenty. He was coming back from a very drunken pokon night and 106 00:08:16,639 --> 00:08:20,680 nobody really knows if it was just because he was drunk, or he was 107 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,279 trying to commit suicide because his wife had just died. He drove as the 108 00:08:24,319 --> 00:08:30,920 tracks as the train was coming and just waited there, actually waved to the 109 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:35,679 Sigleman said, as it plowed into him and killed him completely. I think 110 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,559 he was thrown a hundred and twenty yards away. And in fact, his 111 00:08:39,639 --> 00:08:45,519 son Buster actually sued the train company and from then on they made millions, 112 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:50,200 the Murdochs suing this train company forever for the next hundred years. So that's 113 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:56,159 how that started. That's I found that very interesting. Yeah, that sounds 114 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:01,600 like a suicide more than an accident, wouldn't you say? I thought so. 115 00:09:01,279 --> 00:09:05,559 Nobody wanted to speculate. To me, I thought it was a suicide 116 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,840 I spoke to. One of my best interviews was with a very close Murdoch 117 00:09:09,919 --> 00:09:16,559 Frank called Sam Cruise, the third Him, his father and grandfather have been 118 00:09:16,639 --> 00:09:20,240 in twined with the Murdocks for over one hundred years. He opened up to 119 00:09:20,279 --> 00:09:22,679 me in his house. I went to his house and spent a couple of 120 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,200 hours there on a Saturday morning. He was very generous and he told me 121 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:31,440 a lot of things I never knew about the Murdocks before, and I think 122 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:35,480 new things that nobody else will ever hear about until the book comes out. 123 00:09:35,919 --> 00:09:39,159 He wouldn't commit whether it was suicide or drunkenness, but I think it was 124 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:46,320 suicide. You were talking about these massive sums of money awarded by Hampton County 125 00:09:46,399 --> 00:09:50,320 Juries, and that really struck me too. As I was reading just the 126 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:54,559 huge payout. When all of the reporting was being done on the Murdoch family, 127 00:09:54,799 --> 00:10:00,840 it had come out that Alec was shafting people for this huge amount of 128 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,200 money. I had no idea of the extent of it. I was reading 129 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:07,799 your book and at times as I'm coming across these figures, my jot is 130 00:10:07,879 --> 00:10:11,759 dropping going I can't believe he embezzled that much money from that many people. 131 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,159 I was really just astounded by that. I had no idea the scope of 132 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:20,320 it. Was that a surprise to you when you started doing this much research, 133 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,600 Yeah, I didn't realize that you could. He basically stole nearly ten 134 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:31,440 million dollars from his clients. These are people that were horribly injured or died 135 00:10:31,519 --> 00:10:35,879 in car crashes. He befriended them, a lot of them grew up with 136 00:10:35,879 --> 00:10:39,080 Alex. Some of the people he ripped off. Actually went to school with 137 00:10:39,159 --> 00:10:45,240 Alex and knew him and trusted him. He was president of the South Carolina 138 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:50,399 Association of Justice for three or four years. He was the lawyer in South 139 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:56,600 Carolina for plaintiffs. People trusted him, and he just ripped them off for 140 00:10:56,799 --> 00:11:01,279 millions and he would look them in their face and smile and take their money. 141 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:05,639 Which was that came out at trial He actually admitted it. He finally 142 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,960 admitted it, so that he did this, I personally think he's a sociopath. 143 00:11:11,039 --> 00:11:15,440 He has no empathy with anybody, and he would look you in the 144 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,919 eye and steal the clothes off your back. I didn't know somebody that could 145 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:24,039 exist and be so well respected for so many years before his downfall. It 146 00:11:24,159 --> 00:11:30,399 sounds like there's almost two murders. There's this public facing, friendly, as 147 00:11:30,399 --> 00:11:35,360 you said, backslapping guy who is well known and respected in the community, 148 00:11:35,519 --> 00:11:41,279 and then with the other side of him, he's reaching around and stealing tens 149 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:46,039 of millions of dollars from his clients, many of whom needed that money as 150 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:50,120 a result of accidents, injuries, or deaths. Yeah, what do you 151 00:11:50,159 --> 00:11:52,360 make of that? There are I mean, there's a I mean maybe he's 152 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:58,240 a schizophrenic. There are definitely two sides, and his family also saw the 153 00:11:58,279 --> 00:12:03,000 same side. He actually stole one hundred and twenty thousand dollars from his own 154 00:12:03,039 --> 00:12:07,440 brother, Randy. Can you believe that from his own brother he stole it. 155 00:12:07,919 --> 00:12:11,519 I think his family really loved him and believed in him. Maybe there's 156 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:18,879 a really dark side deep inside Alex Murdoch that nobody ever saw that never came 157 00:12:18,919 --> 00:12:24,080 out until all these things were exposed. But he must be a very deeply 158 00:12:24,159 --> 00:12:28,279 troubled man to be able to live with these two sides going on. Obviously 159 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,679 he compartmentalizes a lot to do it. I've tried to get into a lot 160 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:37,000 of people's minds for these books, but with Alex Murdock it was really impossible. 161 00:12:37,039 --> 00:12:41,919 I think he is. Maybe there's a new medical term for it, 162 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,080 but I haven't found it. There's another person in this book who also has 163 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,799 two sides to his personality, of course, in that is Paul, who 164 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:54,720 turns into Timmy whenever he drinks alcohol. That part of it was shocking to 165 00:12:54,840 --> 00:13:01,360 me as well. How large a role does the abuse or addiction to alcohol 166 00:13:01,399 --> 00:13:03,759 and drugs play in the Murdock's downfall, do you think, oh, hugely. 167 00:13:03,879 --> 00:13:09,120 Absolutely. For a start, Alex Murdoch admits that he was addicted, 168 00:13:09,279 --> 00:13:15,759 heavily addicted to opioids and we spent thousands of dollars every week on it. 169 00:13:16,279 --> 00:13:22,039 And he's also been charged with manufacturing and distributing through a cousin of his, 170 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:26,240 Curtis Smith, who's very involved in the whole story. If you've got somebody 171 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:28,759 on opioids all the time, that's got to do something to their head. 172 00:13:28,799 --> 00:13:35,399 And the whole Murdoch family was based on alcohol. Basically. His grandfather was 173 00:13:35,399 --> 00:13:39,240 pretty much a bootlegger. This is Buster Murdock. He was arrested and stood 174 00:13:39,279 --> 00:13:43,960 trial for him being involved in bootlegging operations in the fifties, but gone away 175 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:50,120 with it and resumed his job as a solicitor. Paul Murdoch, the younger 176 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:54,720 son of Alex and Maggie, and his brother Buster, they were both brought 177 00:13:54,799 --> 00:13:58,759 up with alcohol. It was like a part of the family. There was 178 00:13:58,879 --> 00:14:03,240 always a cooler of cold beers when they went hunting, and the kids had 179 00:14:03,279 --> 00:14:07,639 free access to it. And I understand from friends that Maggie would proudly joke 180 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:13,240 about how their little instance sons were drinking. She thought it was fun. 181 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,159 So they were brought up in this kind of childhood of alcohol, and I 182 00:14:16,159 --> 00:14:20,840 think Paul became an alcoholic at a very young age. He'd drink every day, 183 00:14:22,279 --> 00:14:26,399 he'd get out of control, and his friends gave him the nickname Timmy 184 00:14:26,519 --> 00:14:31,639 because when he got drunk, his fingers would stretch out and remain like that, 185 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,559 his eyes would get huge, and he'd just been wandering around like a 186 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,679 separate person. It was like a jackal and hide thing, and he'd scare 187 00:14:39,759 --> 00:14:43,360 people when he became Timmy, and his friends would say Timmy is out. 188 00:14:43,879 --> 00:14:48,360 And basically that was the downfall of the Murdocks when Timmy came out on this 189 00:14:48,399 --> 00:14:54,960 boat trip to the Oyster Fest and crashed the boat and killed Mallory Beach, 190 00:14:54,639 --> 00:15:01,000 and that's when everything started. The domino started falling with the Murdoch Fan just 191 00:15:01,159 --> 00:15:05,960 recently announced a few days ago that there's been a very large settlement in that 192 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:09,840 boat crash, and it's taken this long for them to get to a place 193 00:15:09,879 --> 00:15:15,240 where they arrived at a settlement five years. I think what I understand is 194 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:22,919 is eighteen million dollar global settlement. It hasn't been announced exactly where the money 195 00:15:22,039 --> 00:15:26,840 is going to who, but I think the beach Manory's parents are going to 196 00:15:26,919 --> 00:15:31,639 get a huge amount of it. And also Connor took his cousin Anthony, 197 00:15:31,679 --> 00:15:33,720 who were on the boat to Miley Altman. I think she was also on 198 00:15:33,759 --> 00:15:37,200 the boat, was she not? He's his girlfriend? Yeah, I think 199 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:43,679 it was Miley. The other one Morgan Morgan Yeah, yeah, so's there 200 00:15:43,759 --> 00:15:48,679 hasn't been announced exactly who's getting watched yet, but it seems to be like 201 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,399 the civil part of it is over because it was posted go to trial in 202 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:58,320 August with Alex Murdoch probably testified, So now that's not going to happen. 203 00:15:58,759 --> 00:16:00,919 There are so many twists and turns to this story, and one thing I 204 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:07,360 really appreciated about the book is we finally have a timeline, because when I 205 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:12,200 remember becoming aware of the Murdoch case, it started with Alec being shot in 206 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,399 the head on the side of the road, and then bits and pieces of 207 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,879 the story started coming out from there it became really hard to follow. So 208 00:16:19,919 --> 00:16:25,480 I appreciated the fact that this book really sets the record straight. Here's what 209 00:16:25,559 --> 00:16:29,480 happened first, then second, and third and fourth. It really smoothed things 210 00:16:29,519 --> 00:16:33,279 out for me. Was it difficult to untangle all of the things that had 211 00:16:33,279 --> 00:16:37,639 happened and put them in a linear order. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean 212 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:40,320 there's a real job. With all my books, I do a timeline, 213 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:45,200 a single space timeline of everything, and this ran to two hundred and fifty 214 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,679 pages. It was a huge timeline because that's the only way you could make 215 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,480 sense of it. And I found we need to do a timeline. Certain 216 00:16:52,559 --> 00:16:56,399 things that you don't think are related, when you put them in a timeline, 217 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,279 that they are. And that's how I do my books. So I 218 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,759 think for the first time you're going to get the reader will get a clear 219 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:06,880 and concise look at the Murdoch history, which up to now has been in 220 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:11,079 bits and babs and tangled like the book tangled vines the story. I think 221 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:15,799 I've hopefully untangled it and made it clear to follow from beginning to end. 222 00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:22,039 The story has been so twisted, and of course their family history is bizarre. 223 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,720 This timeline, I think is going to serve a very valuable function for 224 00:17:25,799 --> 00:17:33,119 people understanding how the Murdochs built this fantastic dynasty. But ultimately it collapses under 225 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,799 its own way. Yeah, and I think there's no way to understand what 226 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:41,759 happened unless you go back to the Murdoch history, how they came to Hampton, 227 00:17:41,319 --> 00:17:48,279 great grandfather Randolph Senior, started the law business and then became the first 228 00:17:48,319 --> 00:17:52,559 solicitor of the Five Counters of the low Country, and how the family tradition 229 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,880 went from there. I think that is all part of it, a very 230 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:03,000 important part of understanding exactly what motivated Alex to do what he did and the 231 00:18:03,039 --> 00:18:07,519 horrific murders that he's been found guilty of. I think it all comes down 232 00:18:07,559 --> 00:18:12,400 to the legacy he perceived as a murder being very special and different than anywhere 233 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:18,279 else. The only comparison I can make is as Sam Cruz, the third 234 00:18:18,319 --> 00:18:22,480 Tommy is like the Kennedy's but without the publicity and out would glamor. But 235 00:18:22,599 --> 00:18:27,200 there was the Kennedy part of it, with the children and everything that reigned 236 00:18:27,319 --> 00:18:33,200 through the low Country. Okay, So English teacher question, once you've got 237 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,400 your two hundred and fifty page timeline, how long does it take you to 238 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,400 flush out the book after that? Because I imagine the timeline and getting it 239 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:45,319 all placed in a linear fashion probably takes a while. How long does it 240 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,920 take after that to do the rest of the process. I'm doing about three 241 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,039 months on the timeline, but I've also got a lot of interviews. I've 242 00:18:52,039 --> 00:18:56,559 done the three dozen interviews, I have to transcribe them and everything. I'm 243 00:18:56,559 --> 00:19:00,599 doing my research and printing everything else. So once I got that, I 244 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:06,079 think that was probably near around three and a half months actually writing. Yeah, 245 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:08,200 probably three and a half months writing it. Then it has to go 246 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:14,319 to my editors at Saint Martin's with their input and make changes there from the 247 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:18,480 first draft. So it's a very long process until you get into the gallis 248 00:19:18,559 --> 00:19:23,480 which you have there. Most people allow themselves to be recorded for your interviews, 249 00:19:23,559 --> 00:19:27,519 John, because obviously there's a tremendous amount of detail that you want, 250 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:32,759 and yet you mentioned fear on the part of some of these people. How 251 00:19:32,759 --> 00:19:36,240 do you balance that? Will they let you record? Oh? Yes, 252 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,960 I have to tell them I'm recording first of all, But they're pretty open 253 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:41,799 about that, and if there's something they didn't once said, they say, 254 00:19:41,799 --> 00:19:45,240 turn off the recorder. So I'd let them do the off the record bit 255 00:19:45,279 --> 00:19:51,240 and then turn it back on. One thing that I was particularly interested in 256 00:19:51,279 --> 00:19:56,000 the book is that Alec had a number of co conspirators in this money laundering 257 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:00,960 operation that he was doing, which I hadn't heard anything about in the reporting. 258 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,079 Can you talk to us a little bit about his buds who helped him 259 00:20:06,079 --> 00:20:08,880 out with this money laundering. There was a lawyer that he was at law 260 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:15,160 school with South Carolina School of Law, Cory Fleming, who they were very 261 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,720 close. They were very close friends, and in fact, Corey was in 262 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:25,480 Alex's wedding to Maggie. He was also I think Paul's godfather. And when 263 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:29,559 a lot of these cases came up, the plaintiff cases, especially the Gloria 264 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:36,839 Satterfield, Alex would use Cory as the main person to do the cases without 265 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,279 telling the people that how close he was. But that was the lawyer. 266 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,920 So Corry, in fact was charged with a number of crimes. So does 267 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:51,119 that mean that Corey and Alex weren't necessarily as public about their close friendship and 268 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,839 alliance. They wouldn't reveal it at all, that nobody knew. They just 269 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:59,279 said. Alex would just say this is a great experienced lawyer without saying they 270 00:20:59,319 --> 00:21:03,559 were roommates at college and he was the godfather of the son. The other 271 00:21:03,599 --> 00:21:10,799 one was Russell Lafitte, who in fact was president of the Hampton Bank very 272 00:21:10,839 --> 00:21:17,799 close to Alex. In fact, Alex dated his then before his wife Susie, 273 00:21:17,839 --> 00:21:22,519 and in school in the Wade Hampton School they dated there in the year 274 00:21:22,599 --> 00:21:26,039 book. They were both very close. Russell Lafitte would just give him really 275 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:33,160 generous loans from the bank which were paid back late and whatever. And he 276 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:37,559 has actually gone to trial and being found guilty and is about to be sentenced. 277 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,039 But really I think the whole of Hampton I was always told there were 278 00:21:41,079 --> 00:21:45,440 a lot of other heads that were going to fall in different areas, maybe 279 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:51,680 legal and police, that were aiding and abetting the Murdocks over the years, 280 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:56,559 because it was just it was an old boys club. You're listening to Mind 281 00:21:56,599 --> 00:22:04,279 over Murder. Will be right back after this word from our sponsor. We're 282 00:22:04,319 --> 00:22:08,680 back here at Mind Over Murder. And one of the things about the Murdocks 283 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:14,319 or generations of them, was they knew how to entertain on a lavish scale 284 00:22:14,559 --> 00:22:19,960 and they'd have these kind of hunting parties. They'd invite the main police chiefs 285 00:22:21,039 --> 00:22:26,839 of the different areas, the judges, people like that, and they socialize 286 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,160 with them so they could call in favors basically, and that's how you know 287 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:36,000 that Low Country worked, and it worked very successfully for well over one hundred 288 00:22:36,079 --> 00:22:40,400 years. When Alex Spell, everybody's saying this is the end of that. 289 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,759 Things are going to have to change for the better, and just out of 290 00:22:42,759 --> 00:22:45,680 curiosity, because I was looking for it in the book and I don't think 291 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,839 I ever found it. Do we ever run in total on how much money 292 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:55,000 Alec actually laundered from all of his clients, I think there is. I 293 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,839 think it was near around ten million something with all the different I mean there 294 00:22:59,839 --> 00:23:03,400 were all when it came to trial, I think ninety nine or so civil 295 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:11,599 actions against him, federal actions and the South Carolina Attorney General actions. He's 296 00:23:11,599 --> 00:23:15,640 got a lot of court cases pending. And even after he was found guilty 297 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:21,240 of murdering Paul and Maggie, I think twenty five more federal actions came out, 298 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:26,480 so he's facing I don't know how many years of trials going forward on 299 00:23:26,559 --> 00:23:30,400 this. It was hard to keep a running total because every time I did 300 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,799 there he'd get charged with more crimes, he'd get indicted. So it was 301 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:38,079 an ongoing thing, which after I finished the book, continues to this day. 302 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:44,079 It's absolutely crazy. Now, as we've mentioned, Aughair, what Bill 303 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:48,279 and I have heard the events reader copies which don't talk about the trial, 304 00:23:48,599 --> 00:23:52,559 but the trial is included in the version of the book that is releasing in 305 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:57,119 August. Correct the copies you've got were came out were printed before the trial. 306 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:03,000 But I covered the trial. I called him most of it, took 307 00:24:03,039 --> 00:24:07,119 careful notes, so I've added like two or three chapters on the end of 308 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:11,400 the book, which really makes it complete. Covering the whole trial and the 309 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:18,160 dramatics of it were just quite amazing. Nobody dreamed that Alex Murder would actually 310 00:24:18,319 --> 00:24:22,000 take the stand in his own defense. In fact, his lawyers did not 311 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,119 want him to, but against their wishes, he was so arrogant, so 312 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,359 much hubris, that he actually took the stand for almost two days. I 313 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,960 think he thought he could persuade the jury, could look them in the eyes 314 00:24:33,319 --> 00:24:38,359 like he did in so many plaintive cases successfully and sway them over to finding 315 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:44,799 him not guilty. But that didn't work. What was your perception sitting there 316 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,720 watching him testify? Was the inner monologue in your head staying, I can't 317 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,119 believe he's doing this, or what were you thinking? Yeah, I couldn't 318 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,319 believe it. I just thought this is the worst possible thing he could have 319 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:00,799 done. I think up to that point many eepen, including myself, thought 320 00:25:00,799 --> 00:25:06,480 that it might be a hung jury because it was in Colleton County Court, 321 00:25:06,519 --> 00:25:11,640 where the Murdock's practiced Alex did cases. In fact, the interesting thing is 322 00:25:11,759 --> 00:25:15,440 that his own grandfather, Buster Burdock, had his portrait at the back of 323 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,559 the court, and the judge order it ordered it taken down before the trial 324 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:25,200 started, because it would have been unfair to the state. So I watched, 325 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,079 I watched Alex, and I just thought, this is he's damning himself 326 00:25:29,559 --> 00:25:32,519 because it could have been a hung jury. They all didn't needed was one 327 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:37,640 juror to find not guilty and he would have gone free, or there would 328 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,880 have been a retrial. But it was unanimous and incredibly, in just three 329 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:47,000 hours they came back and found him guilty of all charges. I was really 330 00:25:47,039 --> 00:25:52,079 surprised that nobody filed for a change of venue. Was that ever know, 331 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,440 was that ever even a possibility or were they just going to try it right 332 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,400 there in the same place where his grandfather's portrait was. Yeah, I thought 333 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,559 there might be a change of venue, but I think Alex murder wanted it 334 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,440 tried there. Because he thought he might get the oculoons of a Hamton jury 335 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,960 because Collinson County is right next door. He thought they'd be sympathetic. But 336 00:26:11,079 --> 00:26:15,680 anyway, they decided to go with Collinson County, and obviously for justice a 337 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:21,079 good decision, this track record that he had and his law firm had to 338 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:26,839 win these massive judgments. Do you think money may have changed hands after the 339 00:26:26,839 --> 00:26:33,440 fact with key jurors in some of those cases. If he's stealing money all 340 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,680 over the place, he's not going to stop necessarily at the ethical boundary. 341 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:42,200 Oh, I couldn't possibly bribe members of the jury or after the fact. 342 00:26:42,519 --> 00:26:47,519 Yeah, I can't speak for some of the other cases, but I didn't 343 00:26:47,519 --> 00:26:53,480 know from one of a librarian I spoke to interviewed her husband was in fact 344 00:26:53,519 --> 00:26:57,960 sitting on a jury and it was a very interesting, I think early nineties 345 00:26:59,039 --> 00:27:03,480 case when Maha mid Ali's doctor, Muhammad Ali was suffering from cancer and he 346 00:27:03,559 --> 00:27:08,359 had this doctor he totally believed in, and the doctor was getting sued as 347 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:15,920 a quack basically Hampton County Court for about twenty million dollars. The trial went 348 00:27:15,039 --> 00:27:21,640 on with the jury, Muhammad Ali was actually called. He came and testified 349 00:27:21,839 --> 00:27:26,799 in Hampston County at one of the days of trial. But the interviewed the 350 00:27:26,839 --> 00:27:30,880 librarian's husband he was serving on the jury, and he basically said that it 351 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,559 was going on past the money they would pay per diem rate to the jurors, 352 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,319 so they weren't going to get paid because they weren't getting paid by their 353 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:44,920 jobs. Alex Murdoch, he said his company were very generous with the jurors. 354 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,319 They kept paying the money even when they wouldn't have got paid or declared 355 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,519 a mistrial. So I won't say there were huge amounts of money being paid. 356 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:59,480 But another interesting thing is that I heard that his father, Alex's father, 357 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,440 Randy Murdoch, would often boast and say, oh, we had to 358 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,720 pay off a few jurors. Today. It's very tongue in cheek and nobody 359 00:28:07,799 --> 00:28:12,279 knows whether he was serious or not. So it's a closely guarded secret whether 360 00:28:12,279 --> 00:28:18,039 they were doing anything nefarious like that. Unbelievable. Can you go back over 361 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,599 and again this You weren't able to get into this in the advanced reader copies 362 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,640 that we'd have, but I know it's in the I know it's in the 363 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:30,440 upcoming release book. Can you go over the evidence that eventually led investigators to 364 00:28:30,559 --> 00:28:34,880 conclude that Alec did in fact murder Maggie and Paul. Like, what was 365 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,799 the smoking gun in this case? If I can be so glib to say 366 00:28:37,839 --> 00:28:42,640 that, Yeah, right after the night Maggie Paul were murdered, right by 367 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:48,079 the Doc Kennels. Alex Murdock's story was that, in fact, his son 368 00:28:48,079 --> 00:28:52,400 and wife had gone to the Doc Kennels. I think after dinner around six 369 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:57,480 o'clock, he'd had a nap, he'd be watching TV. He hadn't seen 370 00:28:57,519 --> 00:29:02,079 them until the murders, which I think we're around the post to ten o'clock 371 00:29:02,119 --> 00:29:06,799 that night. He hadn't seen them at all. He'd gone to visit his 372 00:29:07,079 --> 00:29:12,039 ailing mother who was very sick with Alzheimer's, and then come back to discover 373 00:29:12,119 --> 00:29:17,279 them dead. Amazingly enough, when they took all the evidence, they took 374 00:29:17,359 --> 00:29:23,039 Paul's iPhone and they couldn't break it down and they couldn't get into his password 375 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:29,039 for more than a year. I think the state police sled tried FBI, 376 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,880 and eventually it took a year to get into his iPhone, which he came 377 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,160 out at trial was something to do with his birthday, which baffled me, 378 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,759 why would have taken so long. But more than a year later they got 379 00:29:40,799 --> 00:29:47,839 into it and they discovered a snapchat video that Paul had taken minutes before his 380 00:29:48,039 --> 00:29:51,839 murder when he was in the kennels and he was sending it to one of 381 00:29:51,839 --> 00:29:55,400 his good friends. Paul was looking after his dog that was sick, and 382 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,720 he was taking videos of the dog telling his friend how it was doing. 383 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:04,960 And in the video you can distinctly hear Alex's voice saying something like Bubba, 384 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,680 which was the dog had come in with a chicken and going Bubba. And 385 00:30:08,759 --> 00:30:14,039 there's one line where you can hear Alex's voice saying that, which proved he 386 00:30:14,119 --> 00:30:18,240 was actually in the kennels with Maggie and Paul literally two or three minutes before 387 00:30:18,279 --> 00:30:22,920 the actual murder. Now, this came out very dramatically at trial. Nobody 388 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:29,200 had an idea about this before and this was the smoking gun. Witness after 389 00:30:29,279 --> 00:30:33,759 witness that knew Alex murder for years. Friends, they all like, they 390 00:30:33,759 --> 00:30:38,000 were played this tape, which was like a thirty second tape. It was 391 00:30:38,079 --> 00:30:44,240 pretty short with Alex's voice. They all testified that was Alex's voice. He 392 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,720 had no leg to stand on when he came up to in the witness stand. 393 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,319 He had changed his stories to try and make allowances for this, but 394 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,079 I don't think the jury would have bought it. And one of the most 395 00:30:55,200 --> 00:31:00,400 dramatic things was that the summing up, the prosecutor Craton Waters said, actually 396 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:07,200 that was Paul speaking from the grave, because Paul was called as the little 397 00:31:07,279 --> 00:31:14,400 detective because right before the murder it was shown that Paul was looking into Alex's 398 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,559 case and finding all his opioids, and the mother had found it, and 399 00:31:18,599 --> 00:31:22,720 they were doing checks on Alex's drug use, and they called him the little 400 00:31:22,839 --> 00:31:26,440 Maggie called him the little detective. So at closing, Crayton Waters I think 401 00:31:26,559 --> 00:31:32,319 said, this is the little detective from the grave exposing what his father did. 402 00:31:32,759 --> 00:31:36,720 That was, to me was so dramatic and intense. And if there 403 00:31:36,759 --> 00:31:41,400 was a smoking gun, that was it. And without that Paul's few second 404 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,119 tape with Alex's voice on, I'm sure he wouldn't be in jail right now 405 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,240 for murder. I think he would have walked free. That one bit of 406 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:56,559 recording with Alex's voice in the background took all the air out of his false 407 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,680 story that he was visiting his mother, which would have taken him elsewhere and 408 00:32:00,839 --> 00:32:07,200 substantially a number of miles away from the location where the murders took place. 409 00:32:07,279 --> 00:32:12,200 At the Hunt Club. He was obviously he committed the murders, and then 410 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,039 he got in his cars to visit his mother, fighting these rural, thin, 411 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,559 rural country roads which I know I drove them. They scared the head 412 00:32:19,599 --> 00:32:22,839 out of me when I was in Hampton, and he drove to his mother's 413 00:32:22,839 --> 00:32:28,160 house at speed's reaching up to eighteen miles an hour. The caregiver you testified 414 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,880 that Alex came there and he was holding something. She didn't know what it 415 00:32:31,119 --> 00:32:35,880 was, and he didn't. He sat with his mother on the bed for 416 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,359 a few minutes, then he got up and left, drove back and that's 417 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:43,799 when he drove straight to the kennels and dialed nine one one and called the 418 00:32:43,839 --> 00:32:49,319 police. That tape from Paul's iPhone, I think just destroyed his whole alibi, 419 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,880 And there was I felt sorry almost for the defense because there wasn't much 420 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:59,240 they could do. What if anything is happening with regard to the death of 421 00:32:59,519 --> 00:33:04,279 Stephen Smith and Gloria Saderfield, or are you aware of anything new that's happening 422 00:33:04,319 --> 00:33:09,319 there. Well, Gloria Satterfield, this is the Murdock housekeeper that supposedly in 423 00:33:09,359 --> 00:33:13,400 two I think it was twenty fifteen. Oh, no, I think it 424 00:33:13,519 --> 00:33:19,079 was two nineteen, had tripped that you had gone up to Moselle, tripped 425 00:33:19,079 --> 00:33:25,440 down the stairs and suffered a faithful head injury, and Alex took responsibility saying 426 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:30,359 that dogs had tripped her, and then managed to get like a I think 427 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,759 four or five million dollar payout to the sons, which never went to them, 428 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,559 went to Alex's bank account. When this all came out, her body 429 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:44,000 was exhumed, and we still haven't heard the post. We still haven't heard 430 00:33:44,039 --> 00:33:49,160 autopsy results. That's still pending. But with Stephen Smith, that has been 431 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:54,119 since the trial. There was a lot of Stephen Smith was actually in Wade 432 00:33:54,119 --> 00:33:59,680 Hampton class with Buster Murdoch. They were in the same class, and there 433 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:04,039 was a lot of rumors unsubstantiated, that Stephen, who was openly gay, 434 00:34:04,519 --> 00:34:09,320 had some kind of relationship with Buster. In twenty fifteen, he was mysteriously 435 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:15,599 found in the middle of the road run over. Supposedly even the Highway com 436 00:34:15,599 --> 00:34:20,400 patrol police were convinced it was murder, but it was supposedly hushed up through 437 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,480 the Murdocks. That's been reopened again. And I understand there's a grand jury 438 00:34:23,599 --> 00:34:29,360 right now convening on what action they're going to take and if anyone's going to 439 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,679 be charged in it. So that's an open case, as is Gloria Satterfield. 440 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:37,880 Yeah, it's fascinating. So there is a strong possibility that there may 441 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:43,760 be further developments in both the Stephen Smith and Gloria Satterfield cases. I would 442 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,440 best on it. Yes, whether the Murdoch or not, I do not 443 00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:51,760 know. There's other names that have been levied about that wonder. Yeah, 444 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,280 it was about to ask, what do you think the chances are that Buster 445 00:34:54,920 --> 00:35:00,480 Murdoch comes out of this completely unscathed. I have no idea, to be 446 00:35:00,519 --> 00:35:02,639 honest. Watching the trial, I felt sorry for Buster. He lost his 447 00:35:04,119 --> 00:35:08,239 mother and his younger brother and his father's been convicted of their murderer. You 448 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,800 hear some of these phone calls. One of the things in the book I 449 00:35:13,119 --> 00:35:20,320 got access through another reporter by out the freedom of information request for Alex's gelhouse 450 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,000 cause when he was first arrested, and I managed to I got access to 451 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:29,559 more than two hundred of them, which I painstakingly went through, and there's 452 00:35:29,599 --> 00:35:34,199 a lot of conversations between him and Buster, who you can see he's manipulating 453 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,199 the whole time. One of the most amazing things I found. You asked 454 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,760 me earlier, what did you find in the book? Was that behind bars. 455 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:47,119 I think for the second anniversary of Paul's death, Buster organized the birthday 456 00:35:47,159 --> 00:35:53,320 party for all Paul's friends in Charleston at a bath through their lawyer and a 457 00:35:53,400 --> 00:36:00,199 young Buster. This was Alex organizing this party on Paul's birthday. Also, 458 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,760 whenever it came up to Mother's Day or something like that, he would urge 459 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:09,159 Buster to put flowers on Maggie and Paul's grave and keep reminding them and everything. 460 00:36:09,199 --> 00:36:14,360 He was a master manipulator. But you can hear in his calls health 461 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,840 fraught, Buster sells as things progress and more and more comes out. So 462 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:22,159 who knows what the real relationship is. But Buster is a murder and I'm 463 00:36:22,199 --> 00:36:28,840 sure he feels like a family closing ram. So even if he believes that 464 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,639 his father is guilty of the murders he found guilty of. And there's a 465 00:36:32,679 --> 00:36:37,400 possibility, as has been mentioned elsewhere, that Buster and perhaps some of his 466 00:36:37,599 --> 00:36:43,840 friends may be involved in the murderer of Stephen Smith. I'm saying that was 467 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:49,239 basically rumors. I interviewed Stephen's twin sisters, Stephanie and her mother Sandy. 468 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,760 I went to a fundraiser, That's when I came to meet with them, 469 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:59,320 and Stephanie says that Stephen confided that he was having a fling with some very 470 00:36:59,679 --> 00:37:05,119 high powered young man in Hampton, which he assumed was Buster. There was 471 00:37:05,159 --> 00:37:09,119 also taught right after Steven Smith was found dead, the rumor will went into 472 00:37:09,159 --> 00:37:14,559 overdrive that somehow Buster was involved. To be honest to Buster, this has 473 00:37:14,599 --> 00:37:19,400 never been substantiated, and it remains rumors at the moment, and I wouldn't 474 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,519 want to bet how that would turn out. It looked at the end of 475 00:37:22,519 --> 00:37:28,000 the book that Buster is not planning on following in his father's footsteps, because 476 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,719 there was a portion of a phone call where Alec was encouraging him to go 477 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:35,280 back to law school and Buster was hemming and high and on that is he 478 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,480 going to be? I would say the murder to break the cycle? Do 479 00:37:38,519 --> 00:37:44,840 you think I reckon? So Buster was expelled from South Carolina Law School, 480 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:52,559 where Alex his grandfather, Randy great great grandfather Buster and great great grandfather Randolf 481 00:37:52,679 --> 00:37:59,000 Senior. They all went to law school. Buster was rather renomably expelled for 482 00:37:59,199 --> 00:38:04,159 supposedly plagiarism. From the phone calls, you can see that annex paint some 483 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:09,199 very big wheels in the South Carolina legal profession about sixty thousand dollars to try 484 00:38:09,199 --> 00:38:14,679 and get Buster reinstated. And during the phone calls, he's nagging Buster, 485 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,440 have you followed up with the dean? Have you done this? And Buster 486 00:38:17,559 --> 00:38:22,400 sounded very disinterested. In the meantime, Buster has I know he's got a 487 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:27,559 job for the corporate office. I think it's called Wild Wings. It was 488 00:38:27,599 --> 00:38:32,800 a chain franchise food place that he's working for there. And he seems disinterested 489 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:37,440 in the lord at the moment, and I can't see he's with what's happened. 490 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,719 He could possibly get back into law school, So I think that was 491 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:45,440 the end of the chain, although maybe other Murdocks may become lawyers next the 492 00:38:45,519 --> 00:38:50,519 generation, next generation. It does sett a lot like the Kennedy family, 493 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,800 now that you've made the comparison, I can't see it. Absolutely, yeah, 494 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:59,000 it totally does. The whole thing makes me shudder because it sounds like 495 00:38:59,039 --> 00:39:04,960 there's been eruption at its highest and lowest level going on there for over a 496 00:39:05,079 --> 00:39:08,400 hundred years, over a hundred yes, and they got away with it. 497 00:39:08,599 --> 00:39:14,079 The Murdocks were the law. Basically, they were the police. They were 498 00:39:14,159 --> 00:39:19,440 everything in those five counties, which is a huge area extending to Beaufort, 499 00:39:19,639 --> 00:39:23,760 and they really ruled the roost and they could get away with anything. Interestingly 500 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:29,280 enough, it came out at trial that when Paul crashed the boat, they 501 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:35,519 went to the hospital and very soon afterwards Alex Murdoch and his father Randy turned 502 00:39:35,599 --> 00:39:39,360 up to try and control the situation. Alex walked in and he was an 503 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:44,480 assistant solicitor. He had a get badge. He pulled out his badge and 504 00:39:44,519 --> 00:39:47,400 he put it round his neck when he walked into that hospital to try and 505 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:52,079 get people to shut up. We're lawyering up and they're not saying anything. 506 00:39:52,119 --> 00:39:57,519 And he tried to stop any of the five other teenagers, four other teenagers 507 00:39:57,639 --> 00:40:00,480 talking to any of the police or anything when he tried to put a hold 508 00:40:00,519 --> 00:40:05,880 on it. That just shows the corruption there. You had used the word 509 00:40:06,119 --> 00:40:10,639 hubris a while back to describe Alec, and I feel like that really is 510 00:40:10,679 --> 00:40:17,280 the best descriptor for him. This feels almost like a Greek tragedy in a 511 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:22,719 way, except I'm glad for the murder down fall. I'm not gonna lie 512 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,760 about that. But this definitely has the feeling of you fly too close to 513 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:31,519 the sun and look what happens. Right as Arrogance and Hubris and the generations 514 00:40:31,559 --> 00:40:37,199 before Alex, they knew how to work that, they knew how to control 515 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,480 the whole area, but they weren't so public about it. They drove normal 516 00:40:40,599 --> 00:40:45,639 kind of cars, they didn't flaunt their worth. And I spoke to people 517 00:40:45,639 --> 00:40:47,840 that very close to the murders and they say that Alex, this was the 518 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:52,440 first time Maggie was a social media you know nuts. She would get on 519 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:59,039 Facebook and she would post pictures of them all in their private planes flying off 520 00:40:59,079 --> 00:41:04,280 to these various venues, hunting and fishing and just putting in everybody's face. 521 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:08,599 And I think if they kept a lower profile like their ancestors, this might 522 00:41:08,679 --> 00:41:13,320 never have happened. To make too close to the sun, it feels like, 523 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,320 you know, the sins of the father, and then the story you 524 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:23,840 mentioned about Maggie the mother being so amused by Paul and Busters drinking and hijinks 525 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:30,960 when they were teenagers. Ultimately that also led to their downfall because the whole 526 00:41:30,039 --> 00:41:36,280 boat crash and the appearance of Timmy the alter ego. It's all there, 527 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:43,840 and these are all patterns and self destructive behaviors that started back when they were 528 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,599 still under the control of their parents. Absolutely, and I think it started 529 00:41:47,639 --> 00:41:53,079 even further back than that. I go into Alex's childhood and especially when he 530 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:58,480 was at the University of South Carolina. I got into a lot of hijinks, 531 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,840 drunken fight, strip clubs with his friends and rules and whatever, and 532 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:07,440 they were always swept under the carpet. As soon as they realized he was 533 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:12,519 a solicitous son, they would drive him home and no questions asked. So 534 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:17,079 it goes back generations, but Alex really took it to the next stage with 535 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:22,079 being so public about it, on flaunting his wealth. It's an absolutely amazing 536 00:42:22,119 --> 00:42:25,199 book. John. I know you said you were taking the summer off. 537 00:42:25,559 --> 00:42:30,679 What is next in terms of projects. Being a little close lips about this 538 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:32,960 at the moment, but there's a few things I'm looking into at the moment. 539 00:42:34,079 --> 00:42:37,639 You know, fantastic. We definitely want to have you back whenever you've 540 00:42:37,639 --> 00:42:43,360 got another book ready for publication. The book is Tangled Vines. It comes 541 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,719 out August eighth, with author John Glatt. Thank you very much for having 542 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,920 me. It's been a pleasure. As always, John, we really appreciate 543 00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,800 you taking the time. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of mind 544 00:42:54,840 --> 00:43:08,840 Over Murder. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production 545 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:15,000 of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and 546 00:43:15,159 --> 00:43:21,360 Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is 547 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,840 by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 548 00:43:27,599 --> 00:43:30,239 You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can 549 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:35,880 also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, 550 00:43:36,039 --> 00:43:39,719 you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you 551 00:43:39,800 --> 00:44:12,400 for listening to mind Over Murder. My d