WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:05.400 The important things that have happened recently have been then I'm both saying it's a 2 00:00:05.400 --> 00:00:09.119 commodity and you know, doubling down that several times, but also saying when 3 00:00:09.119 --> 00:00:12.759 it came to prometheum that he didn't see how permethium was able to say that 4 00:00:12.759 --> 00:00:17.359 ethereum was a security because I would up end what the CFTC has on the 5 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:20.399 future side to regulate for eve. And so there's a lot of confusion up 6 00:00:20.440 --> 00:00:24.079 Like, hey, Litten, whatever the SEC and the CFTC are talking when 7 00:00:24.160 --> 00:00:28.079 especially comes to prometheum and ethereum, there's a lot of implications here because which 8 00:00:28.079 --> 00:00:30.719 direction they go it does up end, you know, potentially a lot of 9 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:41.920 present law here. 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Welcome to the Thinking Crypto podcast. You're home for cryptocurrency news 19 00:01:26.959 --> 00:01:30.519 and interviews with me. Today's Ron Hammond, who's no stranger to the show. 20 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:34.840 Ron is the director of government relations at the Blockchain Association. Welcome back, 21 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:38.719 Ron, always great being on Tony. Thanks for having me again. 22 00:01:38.359 --> 00:01:44.480 Ron. I thought of you as yesterday the news broke of the SEC potentially 23 00:01:44.519 --> 00:01:49.040 targeting a theorem trying to classify it as a security investigations going on or the 24 00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:53.640 Ethereum Foundation. And in addition, two days ago the judge sanctioned the SEC 25 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:57.519 and the debt Box case. Maybe we could start with debt Box. What 26 00:01:57.560 --> 00:02:02.439 are you hearing in DC about what took place here? So the Deathaoux case 27 00:02:02.599 --> 00:02:07.200 was sudden that I think are Republicans more than the Democrats, but especially on 28 00:02:07.200 --> 00:02:09.360 the Republican side of the aisle. We've seen them jump at before and after 29 00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:15.680 the SC got sanctioned again this week depth Box sanctioned the SEC having a pretty 30 00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:21.360 aggressive strategy and comes to you know what they did both to the plaintiff in 31 00:02:21.360 --> 00:02:25.000 that case, but also going after a pretty aggressive UH form and action here. 32 00:02:25.039 --> 00:02:28.759 And that's what we saw. The judge rebuke all the actions of the 33 00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:32.560 SEC and entered up in this current situation where Republicans are saying, see, 34 00:02:34.039 --> 00:02:37.439 we've been saying this for years that the SEC has been going so aggressive on 35 00:02:37.479 --> 00:02:40.400 the courts UH, and they've been many times proven wrong. In some cases, 36 00:02:40.400 --> 00:02:44.319 they're even going above the bounds that they're supposed to be going and that's 37 00:02:44.360 --> 00:02:49.360 really concerning here. And this sanctioning definitely is a SoundBite that the Republicans like 38 00:02:49.439 --> 00:02:53.840 to use. Again will move the needle one terms of policy, not as 39 00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:55.319 much, I would say, but it also kind of adds to the beat 40 00:02:55.360 --> 00:02:58.879 of the cap and also builds the narrative that hey, look, not only 41 00:02:59.080 --> 00:03:01.319 losing in the courts, but they're also breaking the bounds sometimes of what they're 42 00:03:01.400 --> 00:03:05.879 legally allowed to do and they're being called out for by the courts. Whether 43 00:03:05.879 --> 00:03:07.560 it be a Republican judge or a Democrat judge, it doesn't matter. It 44 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:12.840 seems to be pretty unanimous in these cases. So I think it's another feather 45 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:16.960 in the cap of terms of Republicans oversight, but also again more support going 46 00:03:16.960 --> 00:03:22.400 away from Gunsler and the regime that they've had with regulation by enforcement for crypto 47 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:27.400 Now. I saw the SEC also put out their budget requests for twenty twenty 48 00:03:27.400 --> 00:03:31.639 five. I saw Tom Emmer tweet out no, so could this situation where 49 00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:38.199 the SEC's acting unlawful be used to cut their budget or limit the amount of 50 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:42.560 funds they would have? Yeah? So for those are how DC works sometimes, 51 00:03:42.560 --> 00:03:45.919 So every March or so, the presidential budget comes out. Now for 52 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:47.400 those who understand how, you know, we're kind of always going through a 53 00:03:47.439 --> 00:03:52.960 shutdown here in Congress. We are just or hopefully Congress will be finalizing the 54 00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:58.879 appropriations process for last year. Those would be done in September tomorrow. So 55 00:03:58.919 --> 00:04:00.439 that we've been kicking the can down the road, kicking the can down the 56 00:04:00.520 --> 00:04:03.360 road, and usually what ends up happening is we kind of go with what 57 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:08.560 the status quo was or what was happening last year for funding levels. You 58 00:04:08.599 --> 00:04:11.719 know, usually the opposite party jumps on these things to attack the administration. 59 00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:14.639 You know, when Trump was president, the Democrats had the House, they 60 00:04:14.639 --> 00:04:17.160 attacked it, and now we have the Republicans in the House, Democrat administration, 61 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:19.920 they attack it. At the end of the day, I don't think 62 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:24.600 it's really gonna change much. Congress came barely keep the current functioning. Just 63 00:04:24.759 --> 00:04:28.560 unfortunately that's how it is. We'll probably have the same levels here. But 64 00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:30.759 it does call out, you know, more about where the SEC's priorities are 65 00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:34.759 in terms of their funding levels. You know, we've recalled a couple of 66 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:40.600 years ago that against it was really advocating for more SEC crypto attorneys, especially 67 00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:43.160 in the Enforcement Division, and it looks like we're seeing a lot of that 68 00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:46.439 play out in the past couple of years, these enforcement actions and again they 69 00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:49.439 haven't been going too well for the SEC most recently, so you know, 70 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:54.680 it gives more ripe to the more biparz at scrutiny. But at the same 71 00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:56.680 time, I don't think we're going to see, you know, the SEC 72 00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:01.639 budget go to zero or to be diminished, especially with the Democrat administration and 73 00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:09.160 Democrats Senate to count any Republican decreases in funding. Yeah, and that's the 74 00:05:09.160 --> 00:05:11.560 thing that's frustrating Ron. I know a lot of people are going to watch 75 00:05:11.560 --> 00:05:14.199 and listen to this, and they're going to say, so nothing can be 76 00:05:14.279 --> 00:05:17.759 done, you know. And my hope is that the optics it's so bad 77 00:05:17.800 --> 00:05:20.800 for the sec the breaking the law, lying to the courts, that maybe 78 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:25.120 more Democrats flip on Gary Gainser, Right, Maybe that's the hope, and 79 00:05:25.160 --> 00:05:27.519 then they can vote to say, you know what, yeah, we're not 80 00:05:27.560 --> 00:05:30.680 increasing this budget because this is a mess exactly. And I think it's really 81 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:34.720 the important thing to highlight here. So it's not about you know, Republicans 82 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:38.279 versus Democrats, and I think that's you know, it always happens in the 83 00:05:38.319 --> 00:05:41.040 election year. Everyone kind of retreats back to the basis and says, my 84 00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:43.800 team versus your team. But we want to make sure, at least here 85 00:05:43.800 --> 00:05:46.959 in DC, it's not about you know, one party, it's about one 86 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:49.720 man, one individual that has led an agency. That's how a crusade against 87 00:05:49.720 --> 00:05:54.759 crypto. You know, we've had great democrats in crypto in the Bid administration. 88 00:05:54.920 --> 00:05:57.920 Take the CFTC for example, who've already done a really good job of 89 00:05:57.959 --> 00:06:01.040 pushing back against YESC advances. And take a theoreum for example, most recently, 90 00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:04.759 where they've doubled down said actually no, like that's our jurisdiction. This 91 00:06:04.839 --> 00:06:09.639 is our line here. We believe and definitively say it is a commodity. 92 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:12.839 And they set it back in the Trump administration for the SEC, and we 93 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:15.319 are still holding firm in the Biding administration at the CFTC. So, you 94 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:18.600 know, I think it's just really important to highlight everyone does tend to get 95 00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:23.000 into these really pars and tendencies, especially when it's a residential election year. 96 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:26.639 But this is about one individual, one man here, and that's why, 97 00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:29.639 you know, we've been seeing a lot of bipars and push back and been 98 00:06:29.759 --> 00:06:31.439 encouraging that. And every time we've seen scrity in Congress, it's like, 99 00:06:31.439 --> 00:06:34.279 hey, look, let's make sure we bring others along, whether you be 100 00:06:34.360 --> 00:06:41.000 Democrats giving scrutiny or Republicans student scrutiny. There's combined forces here because there's a 101 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:45.279 lot more now. Yeah, And yesterday, Ron, we got news that 102 00:06:45.800 --> 00:06:49.720 the SEC is looking to target Etherorem and classify as as security and there's been 103 00:06:49.720 --> 00:06:56.879 subpoenas issued investigations into the Theorem Foundation and to your point, the CFDC just 104 00:06:56.920 --> 00:07:00.680 recently Roston Benham was talking about Etherorem and working with the SEC, and they 105 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:03.839 viewed as a commodity. This thing seems to be getting very messy. I 106 00:07:03.879 --> 00:07:06.920 know it's still early, but what are you hearing? Yeah, so I 107 00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:12.000 want to stress I just actually ran back with Capitol Hill just now after this, 108 00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:14.839 running back over there because they got meetings on this exact same topic. 109 00:07:15.639 --> 00:07:17.720 You know, we've been seeing this reversal of the Ethereum, you know, 110 00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:21.120 from the him Men speech years ago on the Garry Genzel for quite some time. 111 00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:24.399 So by no means is this shocking, and this has kind of been 112 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:27.319 happening for quite some time. And again also I want to stress, at 113 00:07:27.399 --> 00:07:30.920 least at this current moment on Thursday, at least, we still don't really 114 00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:34.360 have official confirmation if this is the SEC or something else is happening at play. 115 00:07:35.319 --> 00:07:39.720 So that's kind of you know what I'm doing back over there by the 116 00:07:39.800 --> 00:07:43.040 end of the day. You know, I think the important things that have 117 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:47.800 happened recently have been ben both saying it's a commodity and you know, doubling 118 00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:51.480 down that several times, but also saying when it came to Prometheum that he 119 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:56.439 didn't see how Prometheum was able to say that Ethereum was a security because that 120 00:07:56.480 --> 00:08:01.040 would upend what the CFTC has on the future side Toulate for eth and so 121 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:03.279 there's a lot of confusion of like, hey, listen, whatever the SEC 122 00:08:03.639 --> 00:08:07.519 and the CFTC are talking. When especially comes to prometheum and ethereum, there's 123 00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:11.680 a lot of implications here because which direction they go it does up end you 124 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:16.120 know, potentially a lot of present or law here and so a that's why 125 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:18.399 we need market structural legislation, so we can now have to have this turf 126 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:22.399 ward to go and play out in real time in front of us. But 127 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:24.920 also at the same time, I think Congress, you know, we talked 128 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:26.480 about how them don't do too much. I think they're going to actually more 129 00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:31.000 facilitate either more scrutiny or oversight. You know, we have rumors of potential 130 00:08:31.039 --> 00:08:35.600 sub poena from you know, to Genzler, from mckenry h. And I 131 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:39.039 will say also, it has been a couple of months since Chered Gensler has 132 00:08:39.080 --> 00:08:43.440 come in front of the House Binds Service Committee, and sent being Committee would 133 00:08:43.480 --> 00:08:46.559 not be shocked to be coming in the next two or three months, to 134 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:50.799 be honest, it's usually around that time anyway. But the timing is right 135 00:08:50.200 --> 00:08:54.919 you also think about the ETF application in May, that deadline is coming up. 136 00:08:56.200 --> 00:08:58.159 I think there's a lot of you know, kind of swirling about right 137 00:08:58.200 --> 00:09:01.720 now that make for a perfect time to have a hearing. And then let's 138 00:09:01.720 --> 00:09:05.279 not forget or did the last hearing start off with mckenry and share a Guensler 139 00:09:05.960 --> 00:09:09.840 Is he the security or not? And I think it would be a you 140 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:16.279 know, a beautiful and almost poetic scene to have the e ETF right living 141 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:18.559 on and then Shared Gunsler comes in front of the House Find Service Committee again 142 00:09:18.799 --> 00:09:22.120 at is in my experiences, the staffer the timing would be right around now, 143 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:26.600 but not just because of this, just because usually this is when charaguns 144 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:30.720 in the SEC chairs would come in front of Congress and Ron. We also 145 00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:35.120 saw two senators I believe they're both Democrat, sent a letter to the SEC 146 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:39.480 saying no more ETFs. So it seems there's some political play here, maybe 147 00:09:39.559 --> 00:09:43.600 you know, the Elizabeth Warren pull into strings a bit to block these ETFs 148 00:09:43.639 --> 00:09:48.720 and maybe this whole a security thing is a smoke screen once again just to 149 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:54.440 the delay, confuse and cause more problems. Yeah, I did think that 150 00:09:54.519 --> 00:09:58.240 was kind of odd to see this coming from you know, pretty senior Democrat 151 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:01.799 senators I read, for example, is one of the most highly ranking members 152 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:05.919 on the Senate Bank committees, and he's been no fan of crypto for quite 153 00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:09.320 some time, so this was on shocking to see from him. Lafonda Butler 154 00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:13.000 attack difference, but she's also new in the Senate. But the push was 155 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:16.399 a on a couple of fronts. It was it was kind of odd to 156 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:22.679 see them recognize that bitcoin has at least a heavily scrutinized markets in their form 157 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:26.120 or in their words, and they believe the market's mature enough at this point. 158 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:31.240 But then they started using the old reasons to deny the bitcoin et arguments 159 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:35.159 to the ethereum side of things, and again they I'm believing them mentioned ethereum 160 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:37.879 explicitly, and they also referred him as ETPs not et apps. They're really 161 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:41.399 pushing on that, But it was more by pushing on the A. I 162 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:45.840 don't think the market's mature, but B I don't like the idea that Wall 163 00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:50.759 Street is getting more involved into this very volatile ecosystem. And usually we kind 164 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:54.639 of see these reactions from Congress, especially more on the progressive side, when 165 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:56.320 there's a dip in the markets. You know, it's usually when there's a 166 00:10:56.360 --> 00:11:00.960 bear market or things are crashing a little bit that we have the a lot 167 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:03.720 of the I told you sos or you know, people are losing their money 168 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:07.600 or more other folks are hurt than others. But we haven't seen that yet. 169 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:09.679 We're actually kind of in the ball run right now, and we're seeing 170 00:11:09.879 --> 00:11:13.080 criticism right now of the ETP. But if I were Genstler, this is 171 00:11:13.159 --> 00:11:18.120 kind of the political cover you could probably utilize to say, I believe Congress 172 00:11:18.279 --> 00:11:22.279 wanting to deny these future ETPs, I can now point to it and that 173 00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:26.399 among other reasons or why I'm not going to approve it E ETF. So 174 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:28.799 we'll see how this plays out, but I three that more of a playle 175 00:11:28.799 --> 00:11:35.840 cover situation now. With this situation though, in how messy you could get? 176 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:39.000 You know, could this be the catalysts where Patrick McHenry can rally to 177 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:43.480 troops to at least get the bills out of the house. Like this thing 178 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:46.840 looks it's going to be really messy. Given the history of the theorem build 179 00:11:46.919 --> 00:11:52.080 him and all these things. Do you think that's possible that he can say 180 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:54.919 this once again? This could be the catalyst, you know, I think 181 00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:58.759 it can be for a market structure or the fit twenty one acts. You 182 00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:01.240 got to thinking, uh, you have Secretary of Yellen at the beginning part 183 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:05.720 of February testifying front the Senate Banking and House Bundal Services, both of the 184 00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:09.000 committees that will be important and the one deciding that bill moves or dies. 185 00:12:09.879 --> 00:12:16.320 She doubled down and said, we need spot market regulation for non you know, 186 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:20.360 for non uh securities tokens. She wouldn't say which ones at all, 187 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:24.279 but she would say for non security tokens plural, not just bitcoin, because 188 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:26.559 at least before Chair Gensler, it just seems to be just one token is 189 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:31.840 non security. So we have Chair Secretary Yellen, Chair Venom from the CFTC, 190 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:37.919 We have decent amount Democrats Unan support on the Republican side in the House 191 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:41.480 at least, and that's a pretty strong, you know, groundswell of support. 192 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:45.039 And then you have the ethereum situation with all the news and the hype. 193 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:48.240 You have the Wall Street forces, crypto forces, and just the general 194 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:52.279 mainstream watching what's gonna playing out. And I think it's going to be a 195 00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:56.879 pert whirlwind to at least get momentum moving, because in Congress that's how we've 196 00:12:56.879 --> 00:13:00.879 seen kind of things move. It's just you need momentum. You need either 197 00:13:00.919 --> 00:13:03.799 a crisis, which will be see in folks who've been post to crypto use 198 00:13:03.879 --> 00:13:07.960 crisis like whether be you know, October seventh or the Russian vasia Ukraine to 199 00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:11.559 move their more negative legislation for the industry. Maybe you know, a positive 200 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:16.559 groundswell or at least scrutiny of of the current situation can get you the grounds 201 00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:20.799 well for mckenry and those other Republicans and Democrats to move that bill. So 202 00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:22.879 we'll see. But you know, if you look at the chess board, 203 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:26.000 it's really starting to form and it's pretty starting to heavily stack on one side. 204 00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:28.960 But time is going to be the issue. It's an election year. 205 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:33.679 It's already hard enough to get the government to do anything, especially Congress to 206 00:13:33.720 --> 00:13:37.799 fund their own governments. So there's those political realities you have to operate in. 207 00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:41.919 Man, I tell you, there's never a dull day in crypto. 208 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:46.080 I love my job because it's never boring, but man, yeah it is. 209 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:50.679 It's never a dull day in crypto. Now, we got the elections 210 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:54.240 coming up, obviously, and we saw on Super Tuesday a good amount of 211 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:58.360 pro crypto candidates one and some who are aligned to Elizabeth Warren, the anti 212 00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:03.279 crypto army lass and you got, for example, John Deeton running against Elizabeth 213 00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:07.720 Warren as well. What is your take on what's happening in the elections. 214 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:13.399 First off, I've been really shocked to see just how well the pack size 215 00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:18.159 organized and they mobilize their resources and to support again Republicans and Democrats starting, 216 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:22.480 you know, folks who more aligned with Warren and supporting those who want to 217 00:14:22.519 --> 00:14:26.360 be pro crypto or at least outly pro crypto. So that's been really exciting 218 00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:30.399 to see. And I will say after Super Tuesday has been really noticeable the 219 00:14:30.440 --> 00:14:33.559 amount of Republicans and Democrats that have reached out to us who are candidates who 220 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:37.039 want to just learn more about the issue. Again, like at least for 221 00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:39.679 us at the Bough Chain Association, like we don't you know, are getting 222 00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:43.080 money here. You know, there's a pack and stuff like that separately, 223 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:46.080 but they just want to know more about the issue. And like so I've 224 00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:50.840 been briefing candidates. We had I think five in our office yesterday. The 225 00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:54.200 guys you're going to call one after this. Like the amount of outreach that's 226 00:14:54.200 --> 00:14:58.639 happened from both sides of the aisle has been incredible. We're talking sentence candidates 227 00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:01.799 and House candidates, and that's been really interesting to see. And I think 228 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:05.799 the most exciting thing is just like hearing how crypto has organically come up on 229 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:09.080 the campaign trail. And you know, a lot of times they say it's 230 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:13.480 more folks who are concerned about the central bank digital currency and thinking that's all 231 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:20.679 crypto, but we've had actually a couple of candidates, actually two Democrats yesterday 232 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:24.039 said it's actually come up organically when they're talking to constituents about like top issues, 233 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:30.200 you know, the borders, one at the economy, inflation, abortion 234 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:33.080 rights, but crypto sometimes comes up, and it's really funny here them like 235 00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:37.240 there's no way it's true. No, but these are actual stories that we're 236 00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:39.480 hearing and like, this is kind of exciting to see. And I think 237 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:43.559 again coinbas is at a great job mobilizing on the educational side, so many 238 00:15:43.559 --> 00:15:46.600 other groups as well, and then we have the pack side of the money 239 00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:50.120 that really promotes these candidates, and I think that's been a great all round 240 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:52.639 effort and crypto's really they come to play. So we'll see what happens in 241 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:56.840 November. Yeah, it's fascinating, right Ron, because it's not the number 242 00:15:56.840 --> 00:16:02.240 one issue obviously, Like you said, there's all these things. But if 243 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:07.200 I have money invested in crypto and millions of Americans own crypto, I don't 244 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:11.200 want my investment to go to zero to be roadblock because of politicians and nonsense. 245 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:17.639 Right, I'm gonna be upset by that and actively looking to talk to 246 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:22.519 my local representative and so forth. So I could see people being strongly incentivized 247 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:26.440 because of the money aspect, right, And we could get philosophical about a 248 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:33.240 Metcalf's law and network effects and it's a very different dynamic. So it's fascinating 249 00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:36.879 to watch that play out. Yeah, and let's also forget like you know, 250 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:38.879 NFTs, for example, they've come underneath the law screuting with the SEC 251 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:44.919 recently, but the DNC is running NFTs now as like a bonus there, 252 00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:47.519 Like I never thought that'd be funny. It's like, you know, you 253 00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:48.679 think you're back of your mind, Like, yeah, the SEC is actually 254 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:52.919 being really aggressive in this industry, especially in NFTs recently, and then the 255 00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:57.200 DNC now promoting it as a thing. So it's it's interesting to see how 256 00:16:57.200 --> 00:17:03.080 this evolves. But I think also just shows like a the anti crypto army, 257 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:06.400 it's slim to none and if you're in the you know, back camp, 258 00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:10.680 there's not been many left. And also it's just it's steamrolling this the 259 00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:15.160 amount of of you know, great news have been going for the industry recently, 260 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:18.400 the court cases, the positive reaction in the market, there's a lot 261 00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:22.839 of rounds well of just positivity here and I think it's really good to see 262 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:26.440 that kind of come to fruition through a very tough bear market. A lot 263 00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:29.319 of folks put their head down and grind it. So again, I don't 264 00:17:29.319 --> 00:17:30.319 want to take credit, you know, for anything by any means, but 265 00:17:30.440 --> 00:17:33.400 we have a long way to go. But it's been really exciting to you 266 00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:37.039 know, be positive here in DC when it comes to crypto. Yeah. 267 00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:42.039 I was pleasantly surprised by that. And then another interesting fact is former President 268 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:48.319 Donald Trump, who's the Republican candidate for this election. I found it fascinating 269 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:52.119 that his tone has softened. He's gone more neutral versus back in twenty nineteen 270 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:55.880 when he tweeted out, I am not a fan of bigcoin in crypto. 271 00:17:56.200 --> 00:18:02.039 This time around, he's has a Bitcoin Ordinals, you know, selling accepting 272 00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:06.400 bitcoin and crypto. That is just a big surprise for me as well. 273 00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:11.079 And like, the one thing that I've always consistently seen is that when a 274 00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:15.480 member of Congress, you know, tweets especially tweets, are engaged on crypto 275 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:18.039 and they look at their Twitter, it has been like, wow, that's 276 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:21.720 a lot of reaction there, and the usually don't get that kind of reaction 277 00:18:21.799 --> 00:18:26.640 for anything I post on Twitter unless it's really controversial. And there's that. 278 00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:30.880 I think there's actually a pretty decent amount of folk who are paying attention to 279 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:33.960 this, and I think that's been been more happening for you know, Trump. 280 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:36.680 I think I'm on social bike, you know. I'm sure he'll probably 281 00:18:36.680 --> 00:18:38.400 saw a little of that, but we saw a lot of folks, like 282 00:18:38.440 --> 00:18:41.720 a Veck for example, really kind of more engaging on crypto. Even after 283 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:45.880 they're done being considered a nominee, they're still engaging on it. And from 284 00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:49.160 my sources I heard Veca is really important at least in the Trump campaign to 285 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:52.079 get you know, get more folks aligned on the pro crypto side. I'm 286 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:55.839 sure there's several other forces at play. But again that's just you know, 287 00:18:55.880 --> 00:18:59.160 that's we've seen the evolution here. It's still a long way to go for 288 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:02.440 Trump. You know, I'm still hopeful for the buying side things, especially 289 00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:06.920 when we have good folks like Chair Benham. But you know, we'll see 290 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:10.200 it's an election year, so things can get really parson and our hope is 291 00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:12.519 that this is not one of those issues. What are your thoughts on that 292 00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:18.400 John Dundeeton running against Elizabeth Warren. I think it's great. I think, 293 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:21.319 you know, a it puts the pressure on her b you know, it 294 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:23.599 kind of has to make her defend her position, not only again on crypto. 295 00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:26.799 I've seen John, you know, going after several issues I from more 296 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:30.200 over his background and you know how he grew up in poverty and welfare and 297 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:32.480 was to be used as a child, like you know, he has personal 298 00:19:32.519 --> 00:19:34.920 stories to really really back this up. That doesn't speak to just to hate 299 00:19:34.920 --> 00:19:40.000 just crypto, because obviously there's a many other issues that folks gravitate towards. 300 00:19:40.599 --> 00:19:42.319 And I think it's really good to a just kind of show that that's one 301 00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:45.079 side of his message, and he's really shown that there's other sides of him 302 00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:48.559 as a person, but also what he stands for. So I'm really excited 303 00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:52.759 to see that. I'm also always excited to see LIZEB. Warren having to 304 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:56.839 defend her anti crypto position, and we're even seeing her media reporters being a 305 00:19:56.880 --> 00:20:00.920 lot more faarable recently, at least in the line of questioning about the industry 306 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:03.839 as a whole. And I think it's a FTX has kind of gone to 307 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:07.400 the back burner in terms of everyone's mindset. I'll probably restart pretty soon the 308 00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:11.279 sentencing begins, as well as for CZ, but overall, I think that's 309 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:15.960 kind of the FTX is kind of now fade to the back mind here, 310 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:18.839 and now folks are saying they're still here, They're still kicking, and actually 311 00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:22.839 not just kicking, they're thriving. And so what do you have to say 312 00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:26.960 in center Warren and other skeptics for you know, landbassing this industry, do 313 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:30.640 you still hold that view? And I think it's really encouraging to see, 314 00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:33.400 and that's thanks to John Deton and several other are getting pro crypto candidates from 315 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:38.079 all sorts of you know, walks of life and ployal spectrum. Yeah, 316 00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:45.079 and what We've also seen is that the crypto industry. I don't know where 317 00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:48.839 what was the tipping point, but I see a lot of them countersuing the 318 00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:53.759 SEC. We got like random crypto exchanges like leg Alex out of Texas all 319 00:20:53.799 --> 00:20:57.319 of a sudden popping up, tell us what is a security what's not? 320 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:02.640 And I really appreciate that. And the cracking, like cracking the exchange and 321 00:21:02.680 --> 00:21:04.640 coin base. They have lawsuits going against the SEC. What are your thoughts 322 00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:08.400 on the industry going on the offensive. I think it's this is the one 323 00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:11.880 area we can go in the offensive right now. I mean Congress again, 324 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:14.720 we have a lot of good pro crypto champions, but we don't into politics 325 00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:18.480 issues, and you know, the courts do take time. But it has 326 00:21:18.519 --> 00:21:21.000 been going to the grounds well and a lot of folks realizing, hey, 327 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:23.680 our arguments are winning here. And now we also have you know the back 328 00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:27.400 or other you know, engaged players like black Rock or Fidelity who have a 329 00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:30.359 lot more big stake in the game. And there's several others like bn y 330 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:33.799 Melon who want to get even more in the game, but the SEC and 331 00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:36.880 others are preventing them, like SAP one twenty one. So I think it's 332 00:21:36.920 --> 00:21:38.920 just there's a there's a lot of uh, you know, excitement, and 333 00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:44.079 folks want to get into the space those who have usually done pretty well, 334 00:21:44.599 --> 00:21:48.240 uh, at least especially recently, And so there's still a lot of barriers 335 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:49.960 though, and a lot of those barriers are again put up artificially, sometimes 336 00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:53.920 by one man, and folks who feel a lot more bold and saying those 337 00:21:53.960 --> 00:21:56.480 court cases they're getting, they're losing, not only in crypto, they're losing 338 00:21:57.359 --> 00:22:02.079 stop buybacks, a few others recently. So there's other issues where like he 339 00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:06.599 keeps folding and losing, and the courts have now been kind of the hot 340 00:22:06.599 --> 00:22:11.279 spots to really engage or going the offensive. I'm really hoping that changeses soon 341 00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:14.799 because I'd rather have it also come from the policymakers with the bolts to represent 342 00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:17.559 us too, at least right now, that's where we have to go on 343 00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:22.559 the offensive. Yeah, and to your point, like Congress needs to act, 344 00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:26.400 but it's also pretty sweet to see someone like Gary Gainster get embarrassed in 345 00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:33.440 the courts and the headlines that follow that. So you know, this is 346 00:22:33.880 --> 00:22:37.480 this is the part of the cycle. So but that's politics for you too, 347 00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:41.319 sure, Okay, So final item here. You mentioned that potentially we 348 00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:47.200 could see Gary Gainster go before Congress the House Financial Services Committee soon. Is 349 00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:51.559 there any other hearings that might be related to crypto coming up? So, 350 00:22:51.640 --> 00:22:55.000 Carress is in two week recess, after they fund the government hopefully tomorrow, 351 00:22:55.839 --> 00:23:00.279 and then after they come back from the recess again recess being campaigning or trying 352 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:04.680 to talk to voters and constituents. Then we're going to probably have a hearing 353 00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:10.640 in the Senate Bank Committee center. Sharon Brown called for a hearing with Wallyadamo. 354 00:23:10.759 --> 00:23:15.640 He's the Deputy Secretary over at Treasury who announced that our Blockchain Association summit 355 00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:21.960 back in November, a variety of extensions to sanctions for crypto as well as 356 00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:26.960 things like nodes and wallets, also trying to expand their secondary sanction authorities. 357 00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:32.359 They're going after foreign issuers of stable coins that have US dollars, so on 358 00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:33.960 and so forth. So it was a laundry list of things. It's pretty 359 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:38.960 aggressive, but Sharon Brown did call to have Waladamo in front of his committee. 360 00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:44.000 Most likely looks like April, it could be May, but we could 361 00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:48.519 be seeing some more conversation, especially around the anti money laundering angle. It 362 00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:52.240 seems like that's not going away by any means, even though again we pushed 363 00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:57.240 back on Center Warren, Treasury didn't do send a letter last week to certain 364 00:23:57.279 --> 00:24:02.720 members of Congress saying we're still looking at to this figure and we do think 365 00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:04.359 it's not one hundred and sixty five million that went to AMAS, but we 366 00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:07.440 want to let you know, Congress, this is still an ongoing investigative matter. 367 00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:12.279 So we'll see probably then what Treasury finds, and they'll be probably pretty 368 00:24:12.279 --> 00:24:15.079 important hearing, so I would stay tuned, especially in the Senate, for 369 00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:19.319 that hearing. M Ron always great information. Thank you so much, my 370 00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:22.359 friend, Hey Tom, thanks again