We're gonna back to you. Ka wait commaspar the hotline. Now, I'm
bring on Ryan Michael. We had Ryan on the last week. Week before.
I think we had had a good time talk with Ryan. Decided to
bring him back on after he put out his list of the top quarterbacks of
all time, and there were some I was like, yeah, I agree
with that, there were some I was like, I got to ask him
how he had Joe Montana at number eight. Ryan, How you doing this
evening? I'm doing well? Then, how are you good? Doing pretty
well? You put out this interesting list the top all time quarterbacks, obviously
a well resent methodology behind it. We'll give you a chance to, you
know, to kind of explain that a little bit. But my you know,
typically when you see these lists, we always see Tom Radiot one,
Joe Montana two, Peyton Manning at three, and then it's you know,
dealer's choice after that. Your list is a little bit different. And you've
got some guys on there in the top fifty all time that I think it
was a little early in their career, but you've got him on there.
So I wanted you to first of all explain the methodology and then then we
can start to get into this a little bit. Sure, you know,
there's no real, one perfect measure. What I usually refer to is they
say that when I'm working up my list, my measure is totality of on
field performance in relation to context of playing situations. So you'll see a variety
of different styles of quarterbacks and quarterbacks who, in the case of a guy
like Kurt Warner, had a very very strong crime but didn't necessarily have a
long career. Then you'll have other guys on the list like fran Parkinson,
who at his peak might not have been as dominant as some of the other
guys I have in my top seven, but he sustained success for a much
longer period of time than most of the guys on the list. So it's
a combination of everything. Well, looking at your list, obviously, the
thing that jumped out to me right away is where Patrick Mahomes is kind of
listed in this particular group. And I think I might have said this to
you when you first put this list out after Sunday's victory. Doesn't or shouldn't
Patrick Mahomes move up further on this list? Should he not? Well,
I've had a lot of people are you in golf direction. Some people feel
I have him too high, others feel that I have him too low.
What I'll say is this, I have him ranked at thirteenth full time,
and if you look at every quarterback in my top thirteen, there is nobody
on that list who has a sample size as small as Patrick's is, And
from my view, that's a testament to just how dominant he's been in his
six years as a full time starter. If you look at my top fifty,
really the only other quarterback to make the top fifty who had a sample
size as small as Mahomes as Andrew Luck, who I put all the way
down at thirty nine. So if we're talking prime for prime, you could
make a very strong argument that Patrick Mahomes as a top five all time quarterback.
But given the reality that he's only played six seasons as a full time
starter, I feel comfortable having him at number thirteen. Well, go ahead,
right, I just want to follow up because I understand the way that
you've kind of surmised this list. Well, considering the fact that Patrick Mahomes
is only twenty eight years old, and you look at what he's done from
a statistical standpoint, the impact owned the game and the fact that he just
won his third title shouldn't that count for something. It certainly does, and
again that's the reason why I have him as high as thirteenth all time.
I've had a lot of pushback from folks who feel that it's way too high
to pet a guy who's only played six seasons in the league. So,
you know, like I said, if we're talking about who has been the
best at the peak of their power, Patrick is absolutely part of that conversation.
But if you look at the other guys that I have in my top
fifteen, in my top twenty, we're comparing him with other Hall of famers
who sustained success for a much longer period of time. Well, you also
you did have some other small sample sized guys in here, did you mentioned?
I mean, obviously you have. You have Lamar Jackson's the forty seventh
best quarterback of all time, right behind Josh Allen at forty six. I
mean, those are some pretty small sample sizes as well. They sure are,
but they're definitely distant from the homes with a somewhat similar sample size of
total games played. So it is my view that Patrick Mahomes is not just
the best quarterback in the NFL today. I believe he's the best quarterback in
the NFL today, and I'm not sold that there's anybody who's a close second.
You can make arguments for Lamar and Josh Allen at this point in time.
So given the sample size of those three guys, I think having Mahomes
as high as thirteenth all time compared to the other guys Josh and Lamar at
forty six and forty seven, again, it's a testament to just how dominant
Mahomes has been all right now, this is one that really gets me.
At fifteen, you have John Elway. And when I look at some of
the other quarterbacks that are ahead of John Elway, I can understand a Peyton
Manning. I don't understand Drew Brees, a Dan Marino and even an Aaron
Rodgers. Based on and maybe my metrics are a little different from yours,
based on, once again, always impact on the game, the idea of
gone to going to multiple Super Bowls, being a back to back Super Bowl
champ. So what falls in line with this criteria of your list? So
if you look at the way that John played from when he was a rookie
in eighty three. All the way through eighty nine, his statistics as far
as efficiency were around league average. He really picked up steam after Mike Shanahan
joined in the nineteen nineties. And if you look again at any of the
quarterbacks in my top fifteen, nobody had the efficiency issues that John had,
And I feel that a lot of that is a product of the limitations of
coaching and roster support during the first half of his career. But if you
look at all of the guys that I've listed ahead of oh way, most
of them had higher peaks and certainly much much higher overall level of efficiency.
Interesting to me or maybe only to me, I don't know. You have
Russell Wilson twenty first on this list, the twenty first best quarterback of all
time in the NFL. I'm very comfortable putting Russell Wilson that high when you
look at how statistically dominant really he's been with the exception of the twenty twenty
two, I mean, he just put together again. If the floor for
Russell Wilson is his time in Denver, certainly last year wasn't very pretty,
but if you look at what he did this year. He was arguably a
top eight statistical quarterback, playing in the system that was not tailored to his
strength and also having to carry the load of a defense that ranks towards the
bottom of league. What he was able to do in a year by year
basis during his time in Seattle, particularly from twenty fifteen to twenty twenty,
was so dominant I feel comfortable putting him as high as twenty first on the
all time list. So, of course, after that statement, Ryan,
I can't help but ask this question, all the Broncos making a mistake by
not keeping Russell Wilson as their quarterback? In my opinion, yes, but
I feel that there's no way around it. And as much as I'd like
to say that there's hope that he's going to restructure his contract and him and
Sean will find a way to see eye to eye, I don't see that
happening. Given the cost of what it's going to take to let him go,
I'm not confident the Broncos are going to find anybody in free agency or
the draft who can play at a level comparable to the way that Russell played
in twenty twenty three. So personally, I absolutely feel they make a mistake.
One of the names on this list is a name that did. A
lot of people may not be as familiar with as perhaps they should be.
But Roman Gabriel at forty nine, what specifically puts him at that and what
measurements and statist allow him to be that high? Sure so, Roman was
one of the more dominant quarterbacks in the mid nineteen sixties, which is one
of the toughest eras of defensive football ever played. He held and I don't
know the number off the top of my head, but he held the record
for the most consecutive starts during his run in the mid to late nineteen sixties.
He's also one of the few quarterbacks in NFL history to lead the NFL
in touchdown passes with two different teams. He did it with the Rams,
he did it with the Eagles. Peyton Manning did it with the Colts and
with the Broncos. Tom Brady did it with the Patriots and with the Buccaneers.
That's putting him in rarefied Speaking of rarefied era, we saw a young
rookie quarterback take the league by storm and C. J. Stroud. If
Stroud continues on the same trajectory that he's on right now after year one.
Do you think there's a possibility, based on your metrics and evaluation, that
he someday makes this list? He absolutely can. He already put together one
of the most dominant rookie passing seasons in the history of the NFL. And
you can look back to what Charlie Connery did with the New York Giants in
the late nineteen forties. You can look back to what Dan Marino did in
nineteen eighty three with the Miami Dolphins. You can look back to what Andrew
Russell Wilson RG three did in twenty twelve. But what CJ put together as
far as a rookie season and also elevating a Houston Texans team that hasn't been
competitive for a while and to be that dominant over the course of the entire
season when he was active, He absolutely has a realistic shot at one day
making this list. What specific statistic do you think is an indicator of greatness?
Is there one that can be boiled down to is it a collective?
Is a is it a value you know, maybe above the replacement? How
many standard deviations from the means someone is? How far like, how do
you what specific statistics because you have multiple eras of football, what specific statistic
can you can you I don't want to say be super reductive and boil it
down to but is there something that jumps out right away that you look at
right off the bat. I think a great standard statistical measure is adjusted net
yards per attempt, and that factors in yards per path in the attempt,
touchdown passes, interceptions, and sacks taken. So one of the numbers that
I put together before coming on the shows, and I just to kind of
rope it into the discussion that we may have about who's the greatest quarterback of
all time. If you look at the number of times a quarterback has finished
in the top three and adjusted net yards per attempt, Peyton Manning did so
eight times, Tom Brady did so five times, Mahomes has already done so
four times, Joe Montana did so three times. That's a good standard statistical
measure as you're looking to incorporate a lot of the passes of what a quarterback
does well. It's again talking with Ryan Michael at the Ryan Michael on Twitter
Pro Football Hall of Fame contributor and we enjoy, you know, having you
on the show. There were some quarterbacks left off this list. What was
the when you look at, you know, your top fifty and you look
at who didn't make it, who jumps out at you? Who's a person
You're like, wow? They just when I put all this together, who
didn't make this list? That you felt like, maybe in your gut without
the stats, should have you know. There were some very close calls,
and I know a lot of people are except that Eli Manning didn't make the
top fifty. Given where he ranked statistically in terms of volume, completions,
passing yards, touchdown pass at the time of his retirement, and having two
Super Bowl wins over Bill Belichick Tom Brady in the New England Patriots. His
durability was amongst the best we've ever seen at the position, but his level
of efficiency over the sample size of a very lengthy career, I just couldn't
possibly put him in the top fifty given what the guys who made the top
fifty were able to do on the football field from an efficiency standpoint. With
the draft evaluations underway for the twenty twenty four draft prospects, I can't help
but ask the question as to up to this point. If you were to,
let's just say, brank quarterback prospects from the past, how would you
rank them? Or better? Better yet, let me let me do this,
what would be in your top five as far as quarterback prospects. Well,
Caleb Williams is definitely part of the discussion amongst the greatest college football quarterback
prospects of all time. So the names that you will often hear said would
be John l Way coming in in nineteen eighty three, Peyton Manning coming in
in ninety eight, Andrew Love coming in in twenty twelve, and Trevor Lawrence,
who is, in my opinion, the greatest college prospect to ever play
the quarterback position, coming in in twenty twenty one. You can put Caleb
Williams right in there after those guys, although I'm not sold that he's on
quite the same level as the first four names I mentioned. Well, Ryan,
we really appreciate you taking some time tonight. You guys want to check
that out and uh and I know there's some spirited discussion on Twitter. I'll
let the trolls get you down, but I always enjoy Ryan's opinions even if
I if I don't agree with him. They're well reasoned, uh and and
he has statistical basis for for having them, so there's uh, there's always
a legitimate debate to be had. Ryan, We always enjoy having you and
we'll have you on again soon. Sounds good. Appreciate your time. That
Nick have a great name. Absolutely take care, Ryan Michael at the Ryan
Michael on Twitter