WEBVTT

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Well, whiskey coming fame my pain
does Horney's the brain Whiskey don't you let?

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From Powerline blog dot com and produced
by Ricochet dot Com. This is

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the three Whiskey Happy Hour with your
bartenders Steve Hayward, John You and Powerlines

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International Woman of Mystery, Lucresia's gotta
give me and let that whiskey blow where

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you're being in love down and low. Hey, everybody, it's the three

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Whiskey Happy Hour as usual. It's
Steve Hayward. I'm in the host chair

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today, so I'm gonna make things
go along snappy and try to keep some

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discipline which will fall apart with Lucretia's
first intervention. Lucresia John Steve, Hey,

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what are you drinking today? So
I'm glad you John in a classic

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three whiskey happy hour glass that we
still have to get you one. I'm

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drinking? Oh, I have I
had one? You do one? Mine's

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the classic glass? Yeah? You
have the the Waterford Yeah, the second

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rate stuff for me. I didn't
touch anything until this water If this class

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could knock somebody out, it's so
heavy. Lucretia got us this back at

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the beginning of things I am drinking
today Templeton Rise since I live in Templeton,

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California temporarily, although it's actually after
Templeton, Iowa. But it's aged

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four years and as American Rise go, I kind of like it. I

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have to say, I'm drinking this, Oh, the Balveini American Oak twelve

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year old. That is some pretty
good stuff because I feel like I feel

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like siding with Lucretia tonight. So
I decided to go back to real Scotch

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and I not that, not that
Japanese stuff he tricked me into drinking last

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week's Teeth. I still think it's
hilarious that you didn't like it, John,

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or No, that you were that
you found it um characterless, characterless.

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Yeah, that Balvini has more character, right. So I haven't had

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it yet. I just poured it. Steve, I seem to recall that

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you tell me that what good?
Sorry? Sorry, I was just coughing

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from the strength of the Balvini the
beau Morey. You said that, Yeah,

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that's what I'm drinking. Oh nice. Yeah, it's a little bit

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too smoky for me. But I
a couple of things in the news before

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we get We have three topics tonight
listeners, and before we get into them.

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Uh So, first of all,
I can't resist this because Kamela Harris

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now has competition, and it's Congresswoman
Rosa de Laura. Is that her name

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of Laura from Connecticut? De Laura? Yeah, who was praising Secretary of

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Transportation pee Wee Herman and hearing this
really, I mean, I'm so gladman.

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He looks like alfredy Newman. All
those things work. Rosad Laura?

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Who was She's kind of crazy.
She always has the pink hair, and

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he's crazy get ups that look like
somebody escaped from the Rocky Horror Picture Show.

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She was praising Secretary pee Wee Herman
for using female crash test dummies in

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some of their for not using no. I thought it was no for not

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using enough of them and not enough
about the safety of women in car crashes.

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So yeah, he needed so I
have watched it. Well, it

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seems at least somebody has an idea
of what a woman is. It does.

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Remember that it's it's it's odd that
it would be her because I told

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you these guys beforehand that I have
to revise my character as a of Randy

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Weingarten as the world's worst female impersonator. I have to give that one to

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Rosa Deloro. Oh my god,
but you know, I thought I thought

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the peak nonsense on. This happened
in the nineteen eighties when the FA I

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think was the FAA, decided they
wanted to use a controlled plane crash to

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test air safety and survivability of crashes
and stuff like that. And they took

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an old seven twenties I think it's
like nineteen eighty five or so eighty six.

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They took an old seven twenty seven, if you remember, the old,

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crazy old planes, and in remote
control they're going to crash the desert

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and they had remote controlled cameras inside. There was one problem. Somebody noticed

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as they were about to take off
that they had the first thirty rows were

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white dummies and the last thirty rows
were black dummies. Oh no, you're

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titty, you know. You know
what happened next? Which which which one

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was? Rosa Parkson got moved from
Oh my god, Oh my god,

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this may news for the usual reasons, and you think, god, you

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know, you think they can't get
a stiller than that. But here we

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are today, which is what about
trans dummy? Is it Okay. The

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other thing, John is one of
our regular listeners who comments every week without

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fail on our podcasts. Wants to
know what is the Roman law perspective on

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the Clean Air Act? Jesus's that's
like, you know, that reminds you

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this Seinfeld, this classic Seinfeld of
the two George worlds, Independent George and

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relationship George. That's like being on
Law Talk where I'm tormented by Richard about

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Roman law and this podcast where I'm
tormented by the Clean Air Act. George

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says, George says, you can't
let the worlds collide because George, divided

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against himself, cannot stand. The
commenter who posted that question is in fact

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named George. So there we go. You're kidding, No, I challenge

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him to Festivus. I will challenge
him to festivals. And you know what,

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frankly, George will know what that
means. Yep, he will.

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Oh No, he's yeah, quite
erudite, not only learned in political philosophy,

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but it also in pop culture.
So you're in trouble, John,

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So, yeah, yeah, he's
wrong on a lot of things, not

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everything, But but um, I
don't hold that against him because he always

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has a good argument. Yeah,
that's right. Yeah, all right,

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George, last out there. We
we love you. So all right,

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um, let's get into god.
A lot going on this week. The

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I want to talk first with you
guys about the Fox News settlement with Dominion

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and Board has a lot to say
here, but I want to concentrate on

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just one thing. Lucretia, you're
shaking your head. You think it's bored

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with it already. All right,
Let's see if I can energize you in

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it. So here's the point,
John, I was when the settlement was

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announced for seven hundred and eighty seven
million dollars. That's roughly half of what

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Dominion was demanding in their initial filing. Yeah, and that's I think I

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didn't hear. I didn't check this
out, but I've heard it's like larger

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than the market capitalization value of the
company. So it's so much larger.

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Yeah, like an absurdly high figure
that Fox settled for. And people are

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saying they didn't want to be embarrassed
with what would come out in the trial.

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I am so old that I remember, because I followed it very closely

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and I wrote an article about it
that I didn't have time to find in

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nineteen eighty five, the Westmoreland versus
CBS case smore case, very similar case.

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It was, you know, trying
to test the limits of New York

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Times, ay Sullivan, which I'm
going to have you explained in a moment,

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John, And that case went through
the trial to a very late point.

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I mean it might have been ready
to go to the jury when CBS

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settled with Westmoreland. Similar terms,
I have to go back and look,

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but similar terms, not admitting any
wrongdoing, but paying west Moreland some money.

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So now Fox is paying out a
lot of money. And here's the

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question in my mind which people were
ignoring, although it has come out in

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the last twenty four or forty eight
hours since the settlement was announced, which

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is we were on our way to
testing the New York Times to be Sulliman

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Sullivan libel standards, which were very
favorable to the media. And I thought

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the cognitive dissonance here is fantastic because
here is all the left wing media who

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hates Fox News. But if the
case went all the way up to the

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Supreme Court, as I think it
might have, it would have rolled back

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the very narrow restrictions on New York
Times to be Sullivan and made CNN and

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everybody else vulnerable to libel suits.
In other words, the major media,

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all media should have been on the
side of Fox News on this case.

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And isn't that that would have been
an interesting cognitive disonance. That would have

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been the one priceless part of the
case if it got to the Supreme Court,

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was with the New York Times and
with CBS and CNN file on the

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side of Fox. Right, their
irrational self interest is to side with Fox,

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but they probably couldn't have brought themselves
to do it, because when it

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comes to Fox, when it comes
to Trump, people lose all principle.

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I mean, they just they can't
resist, they can't resist temporary partisan advantage.

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But I think that Fox made a
mistake. I really do. I

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mean, as you are suggesting,
the First Amendment standard is so high,

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right, it is not just that
you said something untrue, but that you

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said something untrue, either knowingly or
so recklessly that it was basically knowingly.

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So that's what the absence of malice
standard really means, is that you really

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were doing it intentionally. And I
don't think I mean, there's lots of

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people, different people saying different things
on Fox. There's lots of gets,

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there's lots of hosts. They are
allowed to have their own opinions. And

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I'm not so sure Fox would have
lost on appeal. It didn't sound like

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they were going to lose a trial
because this judge really had it in for

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Fox, and I right, like, go on up on it. So

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here's one other thing. Is for
Fox to settle for that humongous amount of

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money means it they thought they had
a fifty fifty chancel losing. Right.

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That's how you're fifty percent of the
damages means you thought the probability was fifty

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percent you were going to lose.
I think that's a real mistake. I

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think they should have gone through trial, and I think they should have gone

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up on a peal of the Supreme
Court. I think the law odds on

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the law are really in their favor. No, I can't think of a

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serious journalistic enterprise that has ever lost
a case since New York Times versus Sullivan.

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I think part of what can I
don't want to say confuses me,

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what intrigues me to the extent that
it does, which it doesn't about.

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The whole thing is when we say
Fox you're saying it as if it is

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a sort of unified entity, and
I think that when it comes down,

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who is what you said? John? There there are. There are opinion

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hosts on Fox, opinion shows clearly
identified as opinion shows. And now after

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the loss of the terrible loss of
Shepherd Smith, you only have idiots on

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there like Haraldo and one Williams occasionally
and so on. Who are who are

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any who are leftists? The rest
of them, I will grant, are

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on the conservative side. However,
Fox News itself is not any longer a

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conservative entity or corporation. I mean, it's got Paul Ryan on its board

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of directors for God's sake, Paul. Oh, come on, if you

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don't think that someone like Paul Ryan
wanted Fox not to be embarrassed by the

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idea that maybe there were in fact
hosts on the opinion side who were pushing

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a narrative about election fraud. Absolutely, do I think that Tucker Carlson would

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have um if he had to pay
any of that out of his salary?

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Do you think do I think Tucker
Carlson would have agreed to a settlement?

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Absolutely not. Oh shush woman,
Sorry, no, don't hush. Woman

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me tell me one good thing about
Paul Ryan. You can't name, maybe

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because he could do P ninety X
or P X ninety there's nothing else foreating

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about him. Nothing. Well,
here's what I will say. I won't

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say this is good about Paul Ryan. I will say that I'll bet he

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is a marginal voice at best on
the board of News Corp. I don't

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think any say any of this stuff. In fact, why do you actually,

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I've never heard this before. Why
do you dislike Paul Ryan so much?

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I'm sorry, I didn't mean to
start this. Oh God, John,

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now you've done it. You know, like he was for like tax

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cuts, and you know he was, I thought, Joe Biden. Can

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I just say, what did he
do? Can I just say for short

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day, he's an oldsmobile in the
conservative movement? Does that work a little

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bit lucretious? Not strong for you? I know he's Yesterday's News. He's

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just one step better than than Mitt
Romney. And that's right, all right?

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Now, I want to I mean, since since he had left,

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since he's out in the non political
world, he's just been despicable. When

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he had all the freedom to be
a decent guy, he's just gotten worse

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and worse and worse. So anyway, Okay, I just I was gonna

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say, like his approach to I
mean, he did want to reform entitlements

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and he had this voucher idea instead
of Obamacare. But there's pretty good ideas.

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Yeah, but he never did anything
tough enough to make any of that

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happen. So the Trump taxs,
go, I love the Trump taxs.

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Yeah, get Trump text cut and
he didn't do it. Infrastructure spending which

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actually was good, and he didn't
do it. Okay, John, Let's

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get back to the main thread that
I had in mind, which is explained

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for listeners briefly. What are the
standards of New York Times to be Sullivan?

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Yeah, so New York Times versus
Sullivan says, and when that was

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the sixties I think, right,
or in the mid sixties, Yeah,

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like sixty five maybe, so New
York Times versus maybe sixty four, But

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New York Times versus Sullivan. It
basically draws a higher standard to protect the

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freedom of the press and freedom of
speech to discuss public affairs. And so

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the standard is when you're just so
it's like, well, I could just

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defame you or to fame lucretia.
You are public figures, but as not

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as you are private figures. This
is the New York Times one doesn't apply

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to you. It only applies to
discussion of public affairs and what the quick

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case calls public figures like politicians.
And so the case says, if you

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talk about politicians, if you talk
about public figures, then just because you

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say something that's incorrect about somebody doesn't
mean that you can be sued for defamation.

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Defamation usually means you say something false
about somebody it harms them reputation.

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And New York Times as selling.
The court drew a higher standard, which

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was absence of malice, which was
that you knowingly purposefully said something wrong or

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record you were so reckless, yeah
something right. Yeah, And that's that's

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what absence of malice kind of is
a shorthand for that standard. So was

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this is such a hard standard to
meet because you know, you could say,

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oh, so and so you know
printed something untrue about me, But

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you have to show that they knew
it was untrue when they published it.

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That's hard to a show, right. They could just say, oh,

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it's a simple error, relied on
something that someone else told US or something.

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Now, that thing that my point
is is such a high standard that

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I don't think any major newspaper.
I don't think any major network has really

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ever lost a case, a publicly
purported case, right, not a settlement,

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but a case I went to the
judgment. I don't think any major

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mainstream publication she's ever lost. Well, there's your point. There's no one

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and this is the tragedy. Maybe
that's too strong word, but maybe not.

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That's the problem with this case is
there was the case seven eight years

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ago. I forget the beef packing
company that sued. I think it was

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ABC. Maybe it doesn't matter.
Want the networks about their stories about pink

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slime on? Oh yeah, yeah, and they settled. The network settled

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because you know, they can show
by the way, unlike uh dominion,

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they could show real harm. They
had to close five meat packing plans and

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so forth, and the network settled
because they didn't want to test the New

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York Times president. I think in
court. The other case recently that where

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this bears is the New York Times
editorial page and editorial well three or four

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years ago. It was about the
Gobby Gifford shooting, which Lucretia helped me.

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That was twenty eleven, I think, And you remember the Left said,

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oh, Sarah Palin's responsible for this. She puts, you know,

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targets on the back of and she
sued them in that case was just missed.

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Yeah, she that's I mean,
like that's in a normal world,

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with normal standards for defamation, she
should win that case exactly because she's a

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public figure. Oh but yeah,
you know who did win? I thought

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you were going to raise this case. The one that I know was was

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Hulk Hogan. Oh yes, you
remember. Yeah, But that's why I

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said Bainstream because that was some kind
of weird celebrity outing. It's not like

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it was like a website that outing
gay people basically, and so Peter Teel

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got out of by them, so
he fundid the whole Hulk Coogan litigation behind

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the scenes. But I mean,
Gawker, I think it was called it's

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not a serious publication, right,
So for just a moment, it's actually

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interesting to consider the context of the
New York Times versus Sullivan case. And

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so what it was was an report
I don't remember the name of I guess

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was it the Times, But I
don't remember the name York Times, Yeah,

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the New York Times, but the
official in Alabam Amma where it was

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actually a reporting about Martin Luther King
March or something like that. I'm forgetting

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the tiny details of it, but
um, the reporting was, you know

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that they alleged that they got a
bunch of the facts wrong, and um

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that because of that, um this
whatever the law enforcement was in Alabama alleged

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what had happened was that, Um, what had happened was supporters of Martin

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Luther King actually took out an ad
in New York Times, which actually is

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kind of interesting, but they took
a full yeah, and the it criticized

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the police Commissioner Montgomery, Alabama,
who was Sullivan, and they got some

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facts wrong in the ad about what
had happened, although none of them were

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really critical things wrong, like yeah, they were like how many students were

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there at the protests? What songs
they were singing? You know. But

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he sued them on their own court
here, he sued him in right over

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Alabama and state court and just punish
them with damages right there. Well,

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you know, I mean Alabama jury. Of course they're gonna award huge before

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you go on John, because I
want you to finish the discussion about how

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worked this way up. But the
reason I often talk about it is I'm

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going to excuse me, is that
it was a a common practice, fairly

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common practice for Southern segregationists at the
time, to use libel suits to try

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to keep too much publicity from being
published about their efforts to maintain segregation in

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the South. And so from how
do I say this that the New York

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Times versus Sullivan, On the face
of it, the rationale seems a little

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bit too far fetched and stupid,
But the court reached in that case so

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that, in fact they could stop
that practice of um Southern segregationists, law

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enforcement and so on. From from
keeping that is, that's a beautiful that's

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00:19:59.799 --> 00:20:03.839
a beautiful point, because you could
say New York Times, it's nineteen sixty

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four versus Sullivan is of a piece
with all these other cases, like the

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voting rights at cases, like the
commerce clause cases, where the court really

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did stretch the law because the Confederate
States had really right, they had built

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like a little fortress in the South. They're using the law using federalism at

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doctrines we generally agree with, but
we basically give the court a pass because

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they were trying to uproot segregation.
Yeah, and so one way you think

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about point, which it's not just
a but it's not just free speech.

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But that's why I think people like
Thomas, who has a right, special

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privilege to talk about this, says
maybe it's time for us to restore the

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law back to normal because somergency is
over in a way, and he's the

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one who's calling for a New York
Times versus Alvan to be reexitement. So

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let me get out of here with
one brief general comment and a story which

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I think readers will like and maybe
even you guys will like. So I've

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been I'm working on a big book
chapter for a collection. Michael Walsh is

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putting together a sequel to his book
on the Great Reset. And I'm taking

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my line at my beginning from that
passage in Toakville saying, gosh, a

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democracy needs a vigorous free press.
And my point's going to be what happens

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when our quote unquote free press is
aligned with one side. That's a crisis.

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And that's why I think we need
a junk, a revised New York

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Times versus Sullivan to go after him. Okay, but it isn't that the

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way the press was back then when
Toakville was visiting. No, Well,

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though it are on all sides.
I mean that was the point you had

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a newspaper for every day. Okay, yeah, leave that aside. We

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can come back this. At some
point. I got to invoke New York

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Times versus Sullivan once in my own
defense, because about ten years ago,

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when I was writing an online callumn
performance magazine, I took after the person

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I think I called the worst elected
official in America. The set well said

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it was it was and was this
important thing a local county supervisor out here

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in Santosmisbo County and a guy named
Adam Hill, and he was just it

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was a horrible leftist. I mean, you know here, I want to

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borrow all of the Lucrease's vocabulary to
describe how vile as person is. He

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His previous job had been as a
teacher of creative writing in the local community

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college, and he would write letters
to the editor of the local papers that

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they would print. I'm gonna give
you one paragraph because this is just too

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good. Here is a lecon official. He writes this to the local paper,

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not only the superficially educated and narrow
minded, not only Balkans with bad

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breath and worse teeth, not only
the gullible and agreed, not only those

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who are nostalgic for a past that
never was. Not only those who are

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afraid of losing control, the fire
breathers, the weapons collectors, whereas of

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bespoke body armor, anonymous online trollers, lover's line rand novels, for whom

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the gift of literacy is truly wasted. Not only the teacher's pets from cardio

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prayer class, and the self appointed
scolds of free speech and the memorizers of

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paramous about power. Well you know
what, that's where my article about him

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00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:19.400
in Forbes left off. So I
just slammed this guy because i'd see him

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in action. I can tell more
about that. This actually sounds like those

305
00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:27.960
FBI agents texting about Trump, right, So you know he uh, you

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00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:30.440
know, I was unformed and got
a lot of traffic, and he was

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like he So he got online somewhere
I forget where. Maybe it was a

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letter to Forbes. I forget what. He made a big fuss saying,

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ah, this person, Heyward,
he's in league with my political opponents,

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which I knew his political opponents.
It was not true. I was actually

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living in Boulder, Colorado during my
year there when I decided to write this

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00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:51.720
and says, and I'm going to
sue you for libel. And that's what

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I sent back a note saying,
Okay, you might want to ask your

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00:23:56.440 --> 00:24:00.920
lawyer if you can find one to
check on New York Time versus Sullivan.

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00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:07.480
Now there's a there's a PostScript of
this story. I think I've established what

316
00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:10.519
kind of person this guy is three
or four years later, so it's four

317
00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:12.400
or five years back from now.
You wake up in the morning and find

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out that the FBI has rated Supervisor
Adam Hill's office on a corruption investigation.

319
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It has to be pretty bad if
the FBI is rating a supervisor in his

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little podunk county in California. The
next day it was announced, oh,

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I'm going into rehab for my addiction
problems. And then six months later he

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committed suicide. I mean, the
whole story he was mixed up at all

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kinds of bad stuff. I mean, he was thoroughly corrupt, thoroughly vile.

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Here, I'll just let Lucretia fill
in all my adjectives that I need.

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So but you know, I never
heard another word about a libel suit,

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00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:49.640
right, and so there was New
York Times versus Sullivan working for me.

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That's all, okay, So thank
you for that story, Steve.

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00:24:55.000 --> 00:25:02.200
There was a great story out.
She beat me my historical analogies of all

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00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:04.640
that. So what I just wanted
you guys to know that I just texted

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you at an article believe it or
not, from CNN that proves to I

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think, at least to some extent, how much Paul Ryan did have an

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impact on this decision and how much
he wants to see Fox News turn away

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from its current conservative leanings to what
he considers better conservative leanings, which is

334
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why he didn't resign from the board
of directors after all this came out,

335
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and instead decided he would do what
he could to move Fox in a different

336
00:25:34.519 --> 00:25:38.960
direction. You guys can read the
article and decide for yourselves. All right,

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00:25:40.359 --> 00:25:45.279
Enough of that, All right,
We're back now with a new segment,

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Lucretia's featured Rant of the Week,
which does not exclude other rants,

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00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:53.000
but this is the one that is
most top of mind, as Kreean,

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00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:57.000
John Pierre, Jean Paul Sartre her
name is would say, so go Lucretia,

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00:25:57.039 --> 00:26:00.279
you're on. So I told Steve
that I wanted to rant about the

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00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:04.920
DOJ, which I do, and
how Department of Justice for people who are

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00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:10.000
not in the watching him, everybody
out there knows what the department of everybody

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00:26:10.039 --> 00:26:15.079
is then I and the FBI,
and and that that just what he looks

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00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:19.920
like. Uh, he looks like
one of those creepy owls Garland. OK,

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00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:23.839
I hate him, but anyway,
unlike unlike the beautiful charming owls out

347
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:29.920
there, there's there are beautiful owls
out there, actually there all of him,

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00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:34.240
all of them. Now, I
think, uh, I'll leave that

349
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aside. I'm not going to talk
about Paul Ryan with you two anymore tonight.

350
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:41.559
No, But back to the DOJ. So, not only is Garland's

351
00:26:41.559 --> 00:26:47.559
corruption, you know, with this
whole thing that he set up a US

352
00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:55.519
attorney appointed by Trump to investigate the
Hunter Biden corruption. They say that like

353
00:26:55.599 --> 00:26:59.160
it means anything. Oh, appointed
by Trump, that must mean he's a

354
00:26:59.240 --> 00:27:04.079
right wing mega conservative. Mattis was
appointed by Trump. Bolton was appointed by

355
00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:07.240
Trump. You know, you can
go down the list for people who are

356
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:12.960
totally unsound and just because they're appointed
by Trump doesn't make them suddenly nonpartisans above

357
00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:18.240
the law anyway. That's a whole
problem. But what we're now seeing is

358
00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:23.079
that the DOJ's influence is reaching into
the IRS, the Treasury Department, just

359
00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:32.680
about anywhere they can manipulate, the
federal law enforcement agencies, federal bureaucracy.

360
00:27:32.720 --> 00:27:37.960
The DOJ is running the most incredible
interference for the Biden administration. At the

361
00:27:38.039 --> 00:27:44.640
same time, they're out there prosecuting
not just right wing people who that guy

362
00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:52.319
who said something on social media critical
of Hillary Clinton or something. I can't

363
00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:56.880
even follow it, but also there's
a left wing group of black men who

364
00:27:56.960 --> 00:28:00.880
are opposed to the war in Ukraine, and they're looking at putting them in

365
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:04.680
jail for five years. It's just
on and on. I could list forever.

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And I've been thinking a lot about
what John said, that this is

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00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:14.880
what our founders intended the system they
gave us, not that what they intended.

368
00:28:14.920 --> 00:28:15.759
I don't want to put the wrong
words in your mouth, John,

369
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:25.480
but they gave us a system that
doesn't guarantee that people will be prosecuted fairly

370
00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:32.039
and without respect a person. There's
nothing in the system that forces that that

371
00:28:32.119 --> 00:28:40.000
and that jury trials and politics in
the largest sense, are the only or

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00:28:40.039 --> 00:28:44.880
the only checks on the awful powers
of prosecutors and the awful power that the

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00:28:44.920 --> 00:28:49.519
government can bring to bear to prosecute
people, and to refuse to prosecute those

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who truly deserve it. Politics is
our only choice, right, Well,

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I thought, John, I'm gonna
well, all right, sorry, Can

376
00:28:57.039 --> 00:29:00.839
I wait to see what I'm saying? Yeah, no, I do.

377
00:29:00.920 --> 00:29:07.440
But my point was the founders were
familiar with the possible oppression that could be

378
00:29:07.480 --> 00:29:12.400
wielded by prosecutors and then executive branch. They suffered that my only point was

379
00:29:12.759 --> 00:29:18.720
the ultimate defense is the jury.
They thought that, right if the executive

380
00:29:18.759 --> 00:29:25.400
branch, when I control jurors who
were supposed to represent the community, would

381
00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:29.119
stop them, right, because you
still need a jury to convict anybody to

382
00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:33.440
deprive them of their freedom. And
so even I don't know these other these

383
00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:36.240
cases, the one, the case
that doesn't really bother me that you raised

384
00:29:36.279 --> 00:29:40.240
before was the but you well,
to put someone in jail, you can't

385
00:29:40.359 --> 00:29:44.799
has to be a jury trial.
So the thing that I think that the

386
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:48.039
point you made that the example I
don't know these examples about putting in people

387
00:29:48.519 --> 00:29:52.200
crossing people for speech. But the
case that you raise that I do agree

388
00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:56.599
with you on was the investigation of
the school board moms who were just engaging

389
00:29:56.599 --> 00:30:02.039
in speech and protesting critical race study
and US and in their kids' schools.

390
00:30:02.119 --> 00:30:04.480
And the idea the just Department go
after people like this, as you know,

391
00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:11.279
domestic terrorists was ridiculous. But I
think ultimately we elected Biden Biden appoint

392
00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:15.599
attorney general. I disagree with him. I disagree with the attorney general.

393
00:30:15.880 --> 00:30:18.400
I disagree with the prosecutors and what
they're being told and what they're being told

394
00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:22.079
to do. But the jury is
our defense, ultimate defense, all right.

395
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So any way, I second.
So, by the way, Lucretia,

396
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:30.680
I on the ten point scale,
that was about a six as far

397
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:33.960
as rance goes. I thought you
were gonna I thought you're gonna bring up

398
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:36.759
Sorry, I thought seriously, I
thought you're gonna bring up was the story

399
00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:41.359
breaking late in the week of an
IRS whistle blower. Yeah, that's why

400
00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:44.000
I mentioned the IRS. Yeah,
okay, But the point is is that

401
00:30:44.200 --> 00:30:47.759
let's for listeners who may not have
followed this in the news, an IRS

402
00:30:47.799 --> 00:30:49.799
whistle blower and Jonathan Turley, I
think you know, it's a good job

403
00:30:49.799 --> 00:30:55.279
of these things, saying that the
IRS and the Justice Department have blocked that

404
00:30:55.440 --> 00:31:02.359
special counsel in Delaware from investigating Hunter
Biden's you know, outside the state of

405
00:31:02.359 --> 00:31:06.079
Delaware, which looks like obstruction of
justice. This looks like Nixon are are

406
00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:10.039
kind of cover up and obstruction.
Uh. And you know that's a pretty

407
00:31:10.039 --> 00:31:12.279
serious matter. And what I want
to ask you about, John, on

408
00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:15.640
a general point, not this particular
one, is you know, you worked

409
00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:18.519
in the Department of Justice, You
worked in all three branches of government.

410
00:31:18.519 --> 00:31:22.960
You are like our you know,
our Article one through three person and I'm

411
00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:29.200
I'm this this worker in the gardens
getting my hands dirty. Y YouTube guys

412
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:33.319
sit up in big fancy mansion espousing
philosophy. Yeah, so, I mean

413
00:31:33.559 --> 00:31:37.519
I do know some stories from the
Reagan years, because you know, so

414
00:31:37.559 --> 00:31:41.319
let's research on it. And you
heard about this sum during the Bush years

415
00:31:41.559 --> 00:31:47.039
and the Trump years of career employees
in the Reagan years, it was,

416
00:31:47.079 --> 00:31:51.559
you know, the entire Civil Rights
Division. Clear career pointees or career employees

417
00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:55.279
would say, we're going to resign
on mass if you do X and Y

418
00:31:55.359 --> 00:32:00.200
on civil rights. And my view
was always go ahead, them. Yeah,

419
00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:06.359
they should hit Yeah. So the
point is in this case, it

420
00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:10.400
does sound like likely we'll see how
this unfolds. Likely the political unfair interferences

421
00:32:10.519 --> 00:32:15.039
from you know, the political appointees
in the office, but it could be

422
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:19.119
the career people who are probably perfectly
in sync with the Biden Justice Department.

423
00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:22.039
But you were there, I mean, you tell us something about either in

424
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:25.839
general or specific, if you have
stories, what their system these are of

425
00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:30.279
the ferment employees. Right, Yeah, there's this constant tension. It's not

426
00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:37.559
unique to the Justice Department between the
political appointees and the career the career civil

427
00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:39.519
servants. Yeah, but I started
to erupt John. It's I mean,

428
00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:43.880
it's one thing, and that's Department
of Education or EPA. In the Justice

429
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:46.759
Department, that's more serious, I
think in the constitutional yes it is.

430
00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:51.720
It is more serious. And it
goes to Lucretia's uh, you know,

431
00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:58.359
sort of halfhearted rant or quasi rant
that because you know, the Justice Department,

432
00:32:58.519 --> 00:33:02.799
unlike other branches, other agencies like
agriculture, it could take your freedom

433
00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:06.640
and liberty away, right, Like
if they could go after you and they

434
00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:08.640
win, you go to jail,
right and they could take your money away.

435
00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:12.119
I mean, if they win a
judgment against you and they find you,

436
00:33:12.119 --> 00:33:14.960
you take your money, your livelihood
away, so you know it is

437
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:19.920
You're right, It is much more
serious I think that. I say,

438
00:33:20.319 --> 00:33:24.160
so there is there is this tension
because we don't have people. I bet

439
00:33:24.200 --> 00:33:29.079
listeners don't realize how few people you
get to a point when you win the

440
00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:35.440
election and basically ninety nine point whatever
percent of the people working in the government

441
00:33:35.839 --> 00:33:38.680
are there for life and there's nothing
any there's nothing Trump can do about it

442
00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:44.200
or any president can do about that
would be fine if the bureaucracy really was

443
00:33:44.279 --> 00:33:49.920
neutral and impartial. But the bureaucracy, my experience of it, was that

444
00:33:50.119 --> 00:33:54.000
the civil service or generally liberal,
and in fact they're probably more liberal in

445
00:33:54.079 --> 00:33:58.759
the Justice Department than they are,
you know, in something like the Commerce

446
00:33:58.759 --> 00:34:00.440
Department, where their main goal is
just to give away money to comprise.

447
00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:04.720
Yes, and so that is so
I agree. I agree with both you.

448
00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:09.719
It is true that you might have
a bigger ideological gap at justice between

449
00:34:10.199 --> 00:34:15.480
Republican political appointees and that. And
just to give you an example, like

450
00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:16.840
the Office of Legal Counsel where I
worked, which is one of the more

451
00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:25.280
politically sensitive offices had basically thirty people, of whom twenty six were political.

452
00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:30.360
I mean, we're civil servants and
four and that's a very high percentage.

453
00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:35.159
And like the Criminal Division, which
is responsible for taking people's freedoms away,

454
00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:38.239
for punishing for crimes, you know, hundreds and hundreds of civil servants,

455
00:34:38.679 --> 00:34:44.480
maybe three or four political appointees overseeing. All I want to add to that,

456
00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:47.360
John, is what you didn't say. You said that that civil servants

457
00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:54.760
are are overwhelmingly liberal. We know
that based on just things like where they

458
00:34:55.000 --> 00:35:00.480
decide to contribute their money in political
campaigns and so on. We know all

459
00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:05.480
of that. And so when you
are a Trump administration or Reagan administration or

460
00:35:05.559 --> 00:35:09.679
Bush administration coming in as those top
level political appointees, it is of course

461
00:35:09.880 --> 00:35:17.280
very difficult to make great strides to
change whatever whichever agency you're talking about,

462
00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:22.280
but especially something like the Justice Department. My point would be that when you

463
00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:30.559
have those political appointees who share the
same political and ideological beliefs and goals as

464
00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:35.280
those career civil servants, you have
a recipe for abject tyranny. And I

465
00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:38.199
think that's what we're seeing with Garland, That's what we're seeing with the irs.

466
00:35:38.679 --> 00:35:42.320
That's what we're seeing with the Treasury
Department. That's what we're seeing with

467
00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:46.320
Janet Yellen, who you know,
for the longest time, absolutely refused to

468
00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:52.320
release all of these uh what do
they call them? The financial the hundred

469
00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:58.159
financial what are they called? The
financial systemically financial institutions? Is at that

470
00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:01.599
No, No, the thing that
if you have a problem, you've done

471
00:36:01.639 --> 00:36:07.559
something unethical financially, because as a
public servant you get this thing. Well

472
00:36:07.880 --> 00:36:10.920
most people are, are you ruined
if they get one? And the Biden

473
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:16.159
administration, the Biden family has like
a hundred of them, their investigations into

474
00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:20.719
corrupt practices, and there's a name
from it where you're talking, I know

475
00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:24.760
you're talking about the financial transaction reports. When you move around too much money

476
00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:29.360
in certain ways, you get flagged
by the system. Yeah, it's a

477
00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:31.000
law. Usually you have to be
moving around a lot of money and suspicious

478
00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:35.440
patterns to get fled. Here.
Here here is the let me restate the

479
00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:38.840
general problem, which will actually set
up our next discussion, our next topic.

480
00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:44.400
So the problem is the as we
call the administrative state, permanent bureaucracy

481
00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:47.440
is the partisan tool of the Democratic
Party. So you have right now is

482
00:36:47.679 --> 00:36:52.920
the political appointees of the president in
perfect harmony with the permanent employees, whereas

483
00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:55.800
when John is appointed the office of
Legal counsel Or in the Reagan years,

484
00:36:55.840 --> 00:37:00.480
you're you're have a fight with these
people. There's more of them. They're

485
00:37:00.519 --> 00:37:02.719
going to be there after the president
has gone. That can outlast you all

486
00:37:02.800 --> 00:37:07.679
kinds of tools. It does remind
me of that great line from Churchill's very

487
00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:12.880
controversial speech in the nineteen forty five
election campaign, And I think it's perfect

488
00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:17.480
for our age, which is we
have a civil service which is no longer

489
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:22.800
civil and no longer our servants.
Now. The problem is, you know,

490
00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:27.639
John Marini, our palace been talking
about this for forty years, and

491
00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:31.719
no Republican will argue about it sensibly, just as no Republicans seems to want

492
00:37:31.719 --> 00:37:37.280
to argue sensibly right now about abortion, which is our next But can one

493
00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:38.599
last point. I hate to drag
this out, but I think this is

494
00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:44.000
something where if Trump had won a
second turn, you could have seen some

495
00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:47.960
serious form. Yeah, yeah,
he so he was going he was going

496
00:37:49.079 --> 00:37:53.639
to make the claim that he had
the right to fire any civil servant who

497
00:37:53.719 --> 00:38:00.880
had any policymaking authority, which would
have been hundreds and hundreds of thousands of

498
00:38:00.920 --> 00:38:05.639
the very top of civil servants in
the executive branch. If he had won

499
00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:08.119
a second term and done that,
that would have gotten the attention. And

500
00:38:08.199 --> 00:38:15.480
why do you think he didn't earn
a second term? Well, yeah,

501
00:38:15.719 --> 00:38:17.480
why do you think no? But
my point is, why do you suppose

502
00:38:17.639 --> 00:38:22.360
every single entity in Washington, d
C. Brought everything they could to bear

503
00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:27.960
to make sure he didn't win re
election, Because that's that's the biggest explanation

504
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:31.400
of all. Well, I would
argue, though, you remember Obama's nonsense

505
00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:37.800
about he had a scandal free administration. So it's not just the marriage of

506
00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:45.679
the political appointees with the career of
civil servants. It's also the complicity of

507
00:38:45.719 --> 00:38:50.760
the media in all of this,
of course, every single time. And

508
00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:58.400
so I think that the situation with
Biden is just so egregious, it's so

509
00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:06.039
over the top, beyond anything we've
seen before that it's trickling out and you're

510
00:39:06.079 --> 00:39:09.199
actually seeing a few, a very
very few, but a few like that

511
00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:15.000
irs whistleblower, who has a conscience, who's and it's really funny. You

512
00:39:15.079 --> 00:39:16.800
might have to explain this to me. I guess the law is such that

513
00:39:16.920 --> 00:39:22.920
because he's talking about the particular thing
is Hunter Biden's tax problems, shall we

514
00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:30.480
say, and that the law makes
it so that he cannot actually even tell

515
00:39:30.519 --> 00:39:37.519
his own lawyers what he knows until
he gets the permission of Congress. And

516
00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:42.400
so that's what he's doing first,
is he's going to Congress to ask for

517
00:39:43.320 --> 00:39:46.159
he says, in a bipartisan way, to ask for permission to be able

518
00:39:46.199 --> 00:39:52.880
to tell what he knows about the
cover up at the IRS and in the

519
00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:58.159
Treasury Department about Hunter Biden, so
that he can converse with his own lawyers

520
00:39:58.239 --> 00:40:01.079
about how to proceed. That's right, because it is a crime to release

521
00:40:01.159 --> 00:40:07.199
the you know, to make public
in any way personal tax information, so

522
00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:14.199
that if it was the other side
of it, it wouldn't well publica exactly

523
00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:17.559
that you know, we tax returns
of the richest Americans, and nothing happened

524
00:40:17.559 --> 00:40:22.199
to anybody about that, league right, all right, you guys, we

525
00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:24.920
need to move on to our next
topic. All right, you guys,

526
00:40:25.519 --> 00:40:30.480
last week we introduced but too late
to develop it, and we're actually already

527
00:40:30.519 --> 00:40:32.360
running along today. We won't be
able to develop it very far. But

528
00:40:34.360 --> 00:40:36.719
there's a subject of natural law,
and so by the way, John,

529
00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:38.960
I'm gonna let you and the audience
in on a secret, so it won't

530
00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:42.559
be a secret any longer. Lynda
and I are going to listen to your

531
00:40:42.760 --> 00:40:46.239
entire Hobbs a presentation you did for
Preger University, and we're going to take

532
00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:51.559
out snippets of it and we're going
to deconstruct it with a tomistic commentary.

533
00:40:51.719 --> 00:40:55.000
Oh, this will be awesome.
This is so awesome. I want to

534
00:40:55.079 --> 00:41:00.280
watch while you do this. I'm
gonna buy like ten Big Max and I'm

535
00:41:00.280 --> 00:41:02.519
just gonna sit there and eat them. Oh. I want to run a

536
00:41:02.599 --> 00:41:07.800
video of me eating Big Max and
French fries and Diet Coke's watching you guys.

537
00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:12.440
All right, I'm coming to Big
Max. But here's the thing that

538
00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:15.400
I also do this on with the
natural law argument. I mean, that's

539
00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:17.320
a huge subject, and I think, by the way, lucretition, I

540
00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:21.920
are talking about doing a whole power
line university, you know, four or

541
00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:27.960
five or six segment, uh know, classroom on this. So here's the

542
00:41:27.960 --> 00:41:32.280
thing about abortion. Is um the
problem right now, like the problem with

543
00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:37.760
the administrative state, I said a
few minutes ago, Republicans seem to be

544
00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:42.079
incapable of making the argument that the
bureaucracy is the partisan tool of the Democratic

545
00:41:42.119 --> 00:41:45.800
Party. They don't do this.
I mean, you know, people like

546
00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:47.480
Reagan and Nixon understood it, but
they don't say anything about it. The

547
00:41:47.559 --> 00:41:52.239
Bushes never understood it. Trump as
okay, never mind Trump. A lot

548
00:41:52.239 --> 00:41:55.440
of good stuff happened there, and
a second term would have been very interesting

549
00:41:55.480 --> 00:42:00.760
and probably productive. But it does
parallel the abortion discussion. Now, I

550
00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:05.920
did John you mentioned last week the
public opinion seems to be against the Santas

551
00:42:05.960 --> 00:42:09.079
signing the six week heartbeat bill.
I get all that. I didn't see

552
00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:13.480
a new survey that was quite interesting, and like I say, the surveys

553
00:42:13.480 --> 00:42:17.960
and it just depend a lot on
how the arguments are presented. The survey

554
00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:22.880
I saw this week was which is
the more extreme position? This was the

555
00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:30.400
set of questions presented in the battery
that abortion should be restricted to ten weeks

556
00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:36.960
or less or some very restrictive framework, or there should be no restrictions on

557
00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:40.440
abortion right up to the time of
birth by a sixty forty majority. The

558
00:42:40.599 --> 00:42:44.840
Pole respondence. It was a pretty
good Pole, I forget who said the

559
00:42:45.400 --> 00:42:49.880
essentially the leftist position that abortion should
be legal up to the time of birth.

560
00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:54.400
That was the extreme position by sixty
percent of the people. Now I

561
00:42:54.440 --> 00:42:59.639
am old enough to remember that.
Ronald Reagan used to again, Reagan was

562
00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:02.840
artful. People forget this, but
you know there were three candidates in nineteen

563
00:43:02.960 --> 00:43:07.760
eighty. You had John Anderson,
the third party candidate, hard to refuse

564
00:43:07.880 --> 00:43:10.039
to do a debate, so Reagan
to debate with Anderson. Abortion came up,

565
00:43:10.360 --> 00:43:14.519
and Reagan, with a typical one
liner, said, you know what

566
00:43:14.599 --> 00:43:16.920
I noticed is all the people who
are four abortion have already been born.

567
00:43:17.679 --> 00:43:22.079
Boom right. Well, if that's
not a hard argument to make, it

568
00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:24.679
is now Steve, you're wrong about
that, by the way, So I

569
00:43:24.679 --> 00:43:30.679
have to interrupt you before you carry
on the new what would you call it?

570
00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:37.239
Stick of pro abortion people is I
would have I wouldn't mind it if

571
00:43:37.280 --> 00:43:43.519
my mother had aborted me and it
was which I always wanted to get serious.

572
00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:45.440
Yeah, I know, and of
course you know what I want to

573
00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:49.440
reply. I'm sure you probably do. They can always cure that error,

574
00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:54.320
exactly right. I used to insult
people that I would have debates about abortion,

575
00:43:54.440 --> 00:43:58.280
especially if they were sort of formal
kinds of things, which seems to

576
00:43:58.280 --> 00:44:00.920
happen. I used to say you
know, it's really too bad your mother

577
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:04.320
wasn't more liberal, but they would
never get it. Yeah, but you

578
00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:07.119
know, I remember also, you
know Reagan as president, and this is

579
00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:09.039
worth bringing up because, by the
way, someone could dust off his book

580
00:44:09.400 --> 00:44:15.400
in nineteen eighty three or early eighty
four. He was the first sitting president

581
00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:17.559
and still the only president to publish
a book while in office. And it

582
00:44:17.639 --> 00:44:22.960
was abortion and the Conscience of a
Nation. There's a big fight about publishing

583
00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:23.760
them. But you never you didn't
know this, John, You were a

584
00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:29.320
little kid, right. Oh gosh. It was a big controversy and he

585
00:44:29.440 --> 00:44:31.679
drew. It was a short little
book. Our pal Mike Huhlman had a

586
00:44:31.719 --> 00:44:35.159
hand in getting it written. I
was gonna say, who really wrote it?

587
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:38.599
I might have been Mike Hulman.
Actually I never asked. My Mike

588
00:44:38.679 --> 00:44:43.000
was always never said, of course
not that was Mike, right, I

589
00:44:43.039 --> 00:44:45.159
mean, he saved the Electoral College. And but there's a big fine about

590
00:44:45.199 --> 00:44:50.199
it because of course James Baker and
probably Nancy Reagan didn't want him publish that

591
00:44:50.239 --> 00:44:53.960
book, and you know, Mike
Deaver and all those other miserable people.

592
00:44:54.280 --> 00:44:57.800
But Regan said, now I want
to do this, and you know it

593
00:44:58.159 --> 00:45:01.199
drew the direct parallel between the dread
Scott case and Roe versus Way. I

594
00:45:01.239 --> 00:45:06.280
mean, it was a fantastic book. I have a copy somewhere. And

595
00:45:06.599 --> 00:45:10.199
the point is this, Hello Reagan. You know, in late eighty three,

596
00:45:10.199 --> 00:45:14.760
when this book was being done,
I'll just put it this way,

597
00:45:14.800 --> 00:45:17.760
it was still kind of iffy whether
Reagan was gonna be able to be reelected

598
00:45:17.800 --> 00:45:21.840
because he was. Approval ratings were
down at eighty two because the economy and

599
00:45:21.880 --> 00:45:22.559
all the rest of that, and
he said, darna, I'm gonna do

600
00:45:22.599 --> 00:45:27.400
this. So that shows you that
there is a model of argumentation on the

601
00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:31.000
issue from our not too distant history. And you know what's wrong with people.

602
00:45:31.039 --> 00:45:34.880
They can't do it. Okay,
So it says I can get a

603
00:45:35.079 --> 00:45:39.719
hardcover copy of the original edition for
fourteen dollars and also should get it.

604
00:45:39.800 --> 00:45:42.679
It says, yeah, I'm going
to. I'm ordering it right now.

605
00:45:42.679 --> 00:45:49.079
This is awesome. I didn't know. It has an introduction by James McFadden

606
00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:54.960
Judge Clark afterward by see ever Coop
right, Yes, I should laugh.

607
00:45:55.000 --> 00:46:00.239
He was an interesting guy. Yeah, Malcolm Muggeridge. Yeah, there you

608
00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:02.880
go, man, I'm totally buying
this. Oh, you should. Yeah,

609
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:07.199
and then and then you'll stop talking
a rot about abortion and public opinion.

610
00:46:07.239 --> 00:46:10.639
I mean not really, but okay, Um, so this is this

611
00:46:10.719 --> 00:46:15.840
is the point I want to ask
you about abortion and natural law is,

612
00:46:16.599 --> 00:46:22.239
Um, what do you make of
changing view? If natural law is permanent

613
00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:29.880
and eternal, but what people say
natural law is on abortion changes, So

614
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:32.960
how do you take account of changing? Right? So this is where this

615
00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:37.800
is where I differ slightly. So
well, you know, so I think

616
00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:42.360
this gets so this is I get
into with originalism. So I think if

617
00:46:42.400 --> 00:46:47.119
the writers of the Constitution at the
time to found the time reconstruction amendments are

618
00:46:47.239 --> 00:46:51.840
natural law lawyers, which I totally
accept because there was no other school of

619
00:46:51.880 --> 00:46:55.159
thought back then. So we have
to understand their words against the backdrop of

620
00:46:55.239 --> 00:47:00.679
natural law. So suppose at the
time of reconstruction of the Ford teh Amendment,

621
00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:08.079
natural law of viewed human life not
to start with the fetus until quickening,

622
00:47:08.239 --> 00:47:13.960
which is however the baby starts moving, I guess, or you know.

623
00:47:14.039 --> 00:47:15.880
So that's why I don't know how
many weeks they would consider that'd be

624
00:47:15.880 --> 00:47:21.119
past tie. Yeah, yeah,
around fifteen weeks. It's short of viability,

625
00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:25.639
but it's not, but it's not
zero either. Nowadays, I take

626
00:47:25.679 --> 00:47:30.679
it that many natural all people say
life begins a conception. I would still

627
00:47:30.760 --> 00:47:36.079
say we have to interpret the Fourteenth
Amendment based on what they thought natural law

628
00:47:36.280 --> 00:47:40.360
was at the time of the Fourteenth
Amendment's ratification. But if you but when

629
00:47:40.360 --> 00:47:44.840
I talk to my natural law friends
like you guys, you guys seem to

630
00:47:44.880 --> 00:47:49.079
think it's the natural law of today
that is to be used to interpret the

631
00:47:49.119 --> 00:47:52.679
Constitution. That doesn't make sense to
me as an originalist. That's my question.

632
00:47:52.880 --> 00:47:58.000
There's there's just too many premises that
are faulty in what you just said,

633
00:47:58.119 --> 00:48:00.559
John, that it's a little difficult
to I don't mean that to be

634
00:48:00.599 --> 00:48:04.719
insulting. I really don't. But
first of all, it's not a natural

635
00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:08.079
law of today versus if there is
a natural law, it is permanent and

636
00:48:08.119 --> 00:48:15.039
eternal because it is based upon a
fundamental understanding of human beings, human nature

637
00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:20.199
and the way human beings were created
evolved. It doesn't matter what the way

638
00:48:20.320 --> 00:48:25.239
human beings are has not changed.
That's the difference between us and the progressives.

639
00:48:25.239 --> 00:48:31.519
The progressives believe that there is no
permanent human nature, which means that

640
00:48:31.559 --> 00:48:37.800
there is no law natural or otherwise
that governs what is good for humans,

641
00:48:37.840 --> 00:48:43.199
what's the definition of human happiness,
any of those things, And therefore we

642
00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:50.039
can manipulate human nature and the conditions
around human nature to reach that perfect utopia.

643
00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:54.039
Natural law is this very different thing. It's look at human beings,

644
00:48:54.800 --> 00:49:00.159
try to understand what their nature is, and when you do that, you

645
00:49:00.199 --> 00:49:07.280
can discover what will make human beings
happy, how to organize a political system.

646
00:49:07.519 --> 00:49:10.920
So that's a really kind of loose
and amorphous concept, very difficult to

647
00:49:10.960 --> 00:49:15.760
put you to wrap your head around
in some sort of real way, because

648
00:49:15.760 --> 00:49:19.360
you can tell I can even explain
it very well. The natural law principles,

649
00:49:19.480 --> 00:49:23.840
however, of our constitution are the
declaration of independence and the idea that

650
00:49:24.039 --> 00:49:34.159
all human beings are created equal meaning
only, meaning only that nature or God

651
00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:39.239
or something else has not created some
human beings as rulers and others as ruled.

652
00:49:39.760 --> 00:49:43.960
There are no natural rulers among the
human species. Where does that take

653
00:49:44.039 --> 00:49:46.239
us? That we could get into
your hobbs here, but I'll leave them

654
00:49:46.280 --> 00:49:51.880
aside for a moment. Where that
takes us is if there are no natural

655
00:49:51.960 --> 00:49:54.880
rulers among the human species, then
each human being is his or her own

656
00:49:54.960 --> 00:50:00.000
natural ruler, and that means they
have exclusive control over their own life,

657
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:06.079
life, liberty, and property or
pursuit of happiness. Except that we know

658
00:50:06.480 --> 00:50:09.079
we learned this from Hobbs. You
learned this from Hobbs. Life and the

659
00:50:09.599 --> 00:50:15.039
nature is a solitary, poor,
nasty, Brutisian short. Without government,

660
00:50:15.079 --> 00:50:22.519
without civil society, without some way
of governing people's passions that get in the

661
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:28.519
way of their rationality. What you
find are rights. Those rights which are

662
00:50:28.880 --> 00:50:34.119
inalienable, as a declaration tells us, are insecure. They're not taken away,

663
00:50:34.119 --> 00:50:36.880
but they're insecure. Doesn't do you
any good to have the right to

664
00:50:36.920 --> 00:50:38.679
life if somebody comes in the middle
of the night and you know, bops

665
00:50:38.679 --> 00:50:43.599
you over the head and steals everything
you own. Right, So we recognize

666
00:50:43.599 --> 00:50:47.079
that because we're rational and we form
that social contract. You understand all of

667
00:50:47.079 --> 00:50:52.320
this, John, But what about
with the constitution? Yeah, I figured,

668
00:50:52.519 --> 00:50:54.679
But what does that tell us about
the constitution and how we should look

669
00:50:54.719 --> 00:51:00.320
at the constitution? What does that
inform us about something like same sex marriage

670
00:51:00.400 --> 00:51:05.440
or abortion. That's where it gets
a little more tricky. Go ahead,

671
00:51:05.480 --> 00:51:10.599
Steve. You seem to want to
interrupt, So go ahead, interrupt.

672
00:51:10.719 --> 00:51:16.599
Stop interrupting me when I'm interrupting you
as Sorry, Well, that was a

673
00:51:16.719 --> 00:51:22.639
pretty mild, sober written So you
mentioned the fourteenth a matter if you want

674
00:51:22.679 --> 00:51:29.079
to do it sort of in narrower
constitutional terms. But this way the definition

675
00:51:29.079 --> 00:51:32.440
of natural right, natural law,
natural right overlapping the same. But the

676
00:51:32.480 --> 00:51:37.880
point is, the great definition from
our teacher Harry Jaffat is natural right as

677
00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:42.960
the search for the unchanging ground of
changing experience. Okay, how do you

678
00:51:43.000 --> 00:51:45.800
apply that in this case? At
the time the fourteenth Amendment is written,

679
00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:51.440
a woman could be pregnant for well
lucreation, correct me, because I'm not

680
00:51:51.480 --> 00:51:54.000
a mother. You could be pregnant
for six or eight weeks and not necessarily

681
00:51:54.159 --> 00:51:59.559
know for certain. Today you do, We've got the early pregnancy tests.

682
00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:02.519
You can. But then we hear
all the time about women who have babies

683
00:52:02.519 --> 00:52:06.239
that didn't know they were pregnant.
Broh, Okay, but you get the

684
00:52:06.239 --> 00:52:08.840
point, right, I mean,
nowadays we do know. And so then

685
00:52:08.880 --> 00:52:13.519
the question becomes, what's a human
being? When should the protection of the

686
00:52:13.599 --> 00:52:16.000
law be extended to, by the
way, from a liberal point of view,

687
00:52:16.039 --> 00:52:21.559
the most vulnerable of all human beings. And the question, by the

688
00:52:21.559 --> 00:52:23.360
way, you know Lincoln said not
quite the way I'm going to put it.

689
00:52:23.400 --> 00:52:27.480
But the question dred Scott that they
muffed was what's a human being?

690
00:52:28.880 --> 00:52:31.920
You know? The premise of dread
Scott was that, and right directly in

691
00:52:31.920 --> 00:52:37.360
cases like Douglas, where blacks are
not fully human beings the way white people

692
00:52:37.400 --> 00:52:42.679
are. The premise of Row versus
Wade is is that the the thing I'll

693
00:52:42.679 --> 00:52:45.719
just do out of neutral terms here, not what I think. The thing

694
00:52:45.760 --> 00:52:49.039
in the womb is not a human
being. So by the way natural law.

695
00:52:49.760 --> 00:52:53.760
You know, I think of two
very bright atheists, Christopher Hitchins and

696
00:52:53.880 --> 00:53:00.000
Nat Hintoff, both sadly gone,
who both were pro life from conception.

697
00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:07.599
Christopher Hitchinson, what's that that we
don't need potential intellectuals helping us? No?

698
00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:10.480
No, well, all right,
leave that aside. The point is

699
00:53:10.559 --> 00:53:14.639
is Christopher hitchins line was he's an
atheist, he's very anti religious. But

700
00:53:14.679 --> 00:53:16.960
this point was there's no other point
where you can say life does begin as

701
00:53:16.960 --> 00:53:22.360
a matter of logic. That was
natural law reasoning. Even if Hitchens himself

702
00:53:22.440 --> 00:53:25.280
might have resisted natural law generally,
I think that's not an insignificant point.

703
00:53:25.320 --> 00:53:29.559
Lucretia that somebody like that can puzzle
it out and say, you know what,

704
00:53:29.880 --> 00:53:36.280
the pro lifers are right about this, so that you could agree with

705
00:53:36.320 --> 00:53:39.280
you on a lot of these points, right that once you are human being,

706
00:53:39.960 --> 00:53:45.280
you get you get accorded right the
full package of rights. But the

707
00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:52.000
abortion question is still about when does
human when do you think a human life

708
00:53:52.079 --> 00:53:55.760
really begins? You could have a
variety of arguments about what that data is,

709
00:53:57.039 --> 00:54:01.079
you know, conception, vibul whatever, Ye, six weeks, what

710
00:54:01.280 --> 00:54:07.440
is it? The heartbeat bill?
Yeah, but it isn't because Steven,

711
00:54:07.559 --> 00:54:15.000
let me finish this. No,
No, seriously, I don't think that's

712
00:54:15.039 --> 00:54:19.000
the right question. I don't think
that's the right question at all. It's

713
00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:22.159
gonna be the political questions you'll have
to answer it. But what you really

714
00:54:22.199 --> 00:54:25.400
need to be looking at. And
I was actually looking for my Mansfield,

715
00:54:25.400 --> 00:54:30.400
but I can't find it right now. And Mansfield has this great line where

716
00:54:30.760 --> 00:54:37.719
America's constitutional soul, where where he
talks about the he talks about I don't

717
00:54:37.719 --> 00:54:45.159
even remember the right words, but
the how abortion on demand for the convenience

718
00:54:45.360 --> 00:54:50.119
of you know, a certain lifestyle
in society, and you know, so

719
00:54:50.239 --> 00:54:52.920
women can be equal to men and
all those other things we tell us we

720
00:54:52.920 --> 00:54:58.679
need abortion for when we concede those
things, we are such an amoral an

721
00:54:58.719 --> 00:55:07.679
immoral society because we put things like
convenience or I mean, we're killing an

722
00:55:07.760 --> 00:55:15.559
unborn child so that you know,
my career doesn't get when you concede the

723
00:55:15.639 --> 00:55:20.360
abortion point, you can't any longer
stop. You can't say, really,

724
00:55:20.800 --> 00:55:23.719
it makes no sense at ten weeks
or twenty weeks, or you know,

725
00:55:23.800 --> 00:55:28.320
before birth versus after birth, I
believe it or not. We have those

726
00:55:28.440 --> 00:55:31.280
debates still. But the point of
the matter is is in the same way

727
00:55:31.320 --> 00:55:40.960
that many of the anti slavery people
in the prebellum that the Antebellum period recognize

728
00:55:42.079 --> 00:55:46.000
the harm that slavery does to the
soul of society, abortion needs to be

729
00:55:46.039 --> 00:55:50.719
looked at in that way too.
Why because natural law teaches us that there's

730
00:55:50.719 --> 00:55:55.599
a certain a certain requirement for human
happiness, we don't and we see that's

731
00:55:55.639 --> 00:55:59.199
how we bring natural law into it. Now, how does that help us

732
00:55:59.199 --> 00:56:05.519
with the Constitution. The fourteenth Amendment
says no person shall be deprived of life,

733
00:56:05.559 --> 00:56:07.400
liberty, or property without due process
of law. That would seem to

734
00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:13.280
mean that you could deprive unborn children
by just saying abortion is legal. I

735
00:56:13.280 --> 00:56:17.760
mean, that would be the simplest
way of looking at the constitutional provision.

736
00:56:17.840 --> 00:56:22.039
But that doesn't take us back to
what it is, the safety and happiness

737
00:56:22.039 --> 00:56:27.559
of our society that our constitution is
supposed to be bringing about. That's why

738
00:56:27.599 --> 00:56:30.199
you have to oppose abortion, because
you, in the same way that slavery

739
00:56:30.239 --> 00:56:37.920
turned people into tyrants, you've turned
an entire society into these narcissistic pigs.

740
00:56:37.519 --> 00:56:43.760
No, but I could agree with
you that abortion just because of the whim

741
00:56:45.400 --> 00:56:49.000
is not right. That's not legal. Most Americans don't agree with that right.

742
00:56:49.000 --> 00:56:57.440
Most Americans seem to agree with banning
abortion after viability. So the question

743
00:56:57.440 --> 00:57:01.800
to me is, I don't see
how natural law answers the question of when

744
00:57:01.920 --> 00:57:06.280
does the human life begin? And
at that point, when human life begins,

745
00:57:06.280 --> 00:57:10.840
then you get the full panoply of
rights natural that there is a natural

746
00:57:10.920 --> 00:57:15.199
law answer to it. And that's
why I say natural rights. It's a

747
00:57:15.280 --> 00:57:19.960
hard time answering the abortion question to
me, because that's when that's the point

748
00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:24.239
at which the natural rights attach.
Now that's the point in which politics and

749
00:57:24.400 --> 00:57:30.760
compromise decides the question not natural law
in the same way that it was not

750
00:57:31.039 --> 00:57:38.280
natural law that induced the Framers to
have compromises with slavery in the Constitution.

751
00:57:38.360 --> 00:57:44.199
It wasn't commitment to natural law.
It was a commitment to doing what was

752
00:57:44.400 --> 00:57:49.239
necessary. But here's the other point
of view. You could say the you

753
00:57:49.280 --> 00:57:52.920
know, the fetus is not really
human life until it can live on its

754
00:57:52.920 --> 00:57:58.639
own unassisted. That's right, that's
the one side definition that's up to viability.

755
00:57:58.679 --> 00:58:02.360
So they would say no natural rights. I could have the same view

756
00:58:02.519 --> 00:58:07.400
of as you as how broad naturalits
are once you're a human being. I

757
00:58:07.440 --> 00:58:10.519
could also say, but you're not
really human being until you can live outside

758
00:58:10.559 --> 00:58:15.480
the womb, and until that point
you get no natural rights. Yeah,

759
00:58:15.559 --> 00:58:20.320
that way, I don't know how
natural ights answers that question. Doesn't wait

760
00:58:20.400 --> 00:58:23.360
a second, John, I mean, so human beings are an unusual species,

761
00:58:24.199 --> 00:58:28.920
uh, in that our infants take
a long time before they can live

762
00:58:28.920 --> 00:58:31.360
on their own, like what fifteen
years? Twelve years? I mean,

763
00:58:31.599 --> 00:58:37.679
Okay, the point is are you
in your case Steeds sixty? But go

764
00:58:37.719 --> 00:58:40.679
ahead, you grasp the point.
I mean other species, you know,

765
00:58:40.760 --> 00:58:44.360
you kick the bird out of the
nest in five days or whatever it is,

766
00:58:44.400 --> 00:58:49.199
and we're different that way, and
that which is why there's there's calls

767
00:58:49.239 --> 00:58:52.199
for abortion up to the age of
at least well that was years. That

768
00:58:52.320 --> 00:58:58.920
was Peter Singer's controversiality. All right, before you, I just want to

769
00:58:59.079 --> 00:59:00.960
sort of make the opposite the same
point, but the opposite one. You'll

770
00:59:00.960 --> 00:59:05.920
see what I mean by it.
So the big deal amongst the most radical

771
00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:10.719
feminists right now and in their alliance
with radical science, shall we call it,

772
00:59:10.800 --> 00:59:16.960
is creating artificial wounds so that women
don't have to have the horrible,

773
00:59:17.079 --> 00:59:22.079
horrible burden of being pregnant and giving
birth because we all know that it's such

774
00:59:22.079 --> 00:59:24.599
a terrible thing that nobody wants to
do it, which is why there's how

775
00:59:24.599 --> 00:59:30.320
many billion people in the world as
far as I'm aware, still we're born

776
00:59:30.480 --> 00:59:34.519
from a woman. However, we
don't want to keep doing that because it

777
00:59:34.519 --> 00:59:37.800
places such a terrible burden on women
and makes them unequal to man. And

778
00:59:37.800 --> 00:59:44.960
so therefore we can now viability starts
before I don't know, yeah, well

779
00:59:45.360 --> 00:59:49.199
start like after a week. This
was a point I was going to bring

780
00:59:49.280 --> 00:59:52.360
up, is what if we have
laboratory technologies that do what you say,

781
00:59:52.440 --> 00:59:55.280
lucretia that you don't actually have to
A woman does not have to carry a

782
00:59:55.360 --> 01:00:00.960
feet is to full gestation, and
how will that affect the argument when this

783
01:00:00.039 --> 01:00:05.199
person would begin, Then let us
draw a veil over that, as Madison

784
01:00:05.199 --> 01:00:12.679
says in Federalist forty three. And
I want to get onto other technological developments

785
01:00:12.760 --> 01:00:19.800
after these messages. Okay, John. The important news this week, which

786
01:00:19.800 --> 01:00:23.000
will seem frivole us, but we'll
get to a semi serious topic is McDonald's

787
01:00:23.000 --> 01:00:28.920
announced once again they're overhauling their hamburger
line. And I guess they're gonna make

788
01:00:28.960 --> 01:00:31.440
the burgers juicier somehow. I don't
know what inject them with that I don't

789
01:00:31.440 --> 01:00:37.320
know, but more pillowy buns.
And I don't know what that means,

790
01:00:37.400 --> 01:00:43.519
especially for guy my age, whose
buns are pillowy enough. But there's another

791
01:00:43.599 --> 01:00:45.719
But there's a story at the same
time coming out, which was Mayor Adams

792
01:00:45.760 --> 01:00:50.599
of New York, who seems a
great disappointment. Didn't expect much, but

793
01:00:50.639 --> 01:00:52.159
he's even worse, and he says, well, you know, we gotta

794
01:00:52.159 --> 01:00:55.039
get onto vegan altar. In other
words, they want to kill burgers.

795
01:00:55.039 --> 01:00:59.079
They want to kill be for climate
and all the rest of that. And

796
01:00:59.280 --> 01:01:02.159
this all come at the fiftieth anniversary
of the appearance of Soil and Green,

797
01:01:02.239 --> 01:01:07.159
which I thought was a whole movie, right, the whole thing I will

798
01:01:07.199 --> 01:01:14.360
skip today. People, it's people. I will pass over the story because

799
01:01:14.360 --> 01:01:17.880
I already told one long story of
having a drink at the Beverly Wilshire Hotel

800
01:01:17.960 --> 01:01:22.320
with Charleton Heston and Rush Limbaugh once
thirty years ago. Oh oh no,

801
01:01:22.400 --> 01:01:24.519
you gotta tell that, n But
if we didn't talk about Soilon Green,

802
01:01:24.559 --> 01:01:28.760
we talked about other movies. But
the point is, you guys never invite

803
01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:31.000
me to the cool stuff. Well
that was thirty years ago, John,

804
01:01:32.320 --> 01:01:36.519
both you know, Heston and Rush
are both along gone as we know it.

805
01:01:36.639 --> 01:01:39.440
Okay, So here's the point.
I got to thinking about wanting to

806
01:01:39.440 --> 01:01:43.639
ask you something different. Let's do
some culture because we're actually good at it

807
01:01:43.679 --> 01:01:49.320
and we don't do enough of it. And I want to do a quick

808
01:01:49.400 --> 01:01:53.760
round robin of your two favorite political
movies. And I'll go first. I've

809
01:01:53.800 --> 01:01:58.440
talked about it before, and I
actually want to have John Marini on to

810
01:01:58.480 --> 01:02:02.199
do this properly. But I use
the man who shot Liberty Balance in the

811
01:02:02.239 --> 01:02:07.719
classroom with students, because I think
that movie teaches fundamental questions about the rule

812
01:02:07.760 --> 01:02:10.559
of law and what is necessary.
It's just a cowboy movie. It's a

813
01:02:10.599 --> 01:02:15.320
cowboy movie, though you are wrong, Crat in Europe's thought a movie about

814
01:02:15.400 --> 01:02:21.559
politics. Yes it is. Then
you're going to say the Good, the

815
01:02:21.639 --> 01:02:23.639
Bad, and the Uglies a good
politics movie too. Well, it might

816
01:02:23.639 --> 01:02:27.559
be. I haven't looked at it
closely, but that's my first nominee.

817
01:02:27.599 --> 01:02:30.239
And I will just stop there,
and who wants to go next? So

818
01:02:30.360 --> 01:02:34.360
I refuse to to sort of play
the game the way I know, the

819
01:02:34.400 --> 01:02:37.119
way you describe it, And I'm
going to give you the one I often

820
01:02:37.159 --> 01:02:40.719
talk to students about, just because
it'll add a little spice to this podcast.

821
01:02:42.360 --> 01:02:45.079
Um. When I would talk about, um, the First Amendment,

822
01:02:45.159 --> 01:02:52.360
I'm tying everything together here in the
First Amendment, and obscenity, I would

823
01:02:52.599 --> 01:02:59.559
use the example of to try to
illustrate to students what the um gosh the

824
01:02:59.599 --> 01:03:04.440
Miller's standard was for obscenity. Uh. I would talk about The Devil in

825
01:03:04.480 --> 01:03:08.960
Miss Jones, which is of course
a morality play. I've never seen it,

826
01:03:09.000 --> 01:03:13.480
but I have, And that's that's
how I would. I would That's

827
01:03:13.519 --> 01:03:16.440
how I would get students to sort
of pay a little attention to me because

828
01:03:16.679 --> 01:03:22.559
many years ago at my my undergraduate
alma mater. And I just say,

829
01:03:22.599 --> 01:03:24.199
I'm going to put my hands over
my ears now because my Asian mother.

830
01:03:24.320 --> 01:03:32.559
No, I'm not nothing bad.
But but we had classes on on Mondays

831
01:03:32.559 --> 01:03:36.920
and Wednesdays and Tuesdays and Thursdays and
Fridays. There were just very few,

832
01:03:37.000 --> 01:03:39.119
like if you had a language class, you had a lab or whatever.

833
01:03:39.400 --> 01:03:45.159
And so Friday afternoons in the pub
that was was owned at the time by

834
01:03:45.519 --> 01:03:50.360
a private company, I came in
and you know, dispense the beer and

835
01:03:50.360 --> 01:03:55.800
so on. They would show porno
movies in the bar on Friday afternoon in

836
01:03:55.840 --> 01:04:01.519
the pub at my alma mater,
And so a bunch of us would just

837
01:04:01.599 --> 01:04:05.760
go in there drinking beer on Friday
afternoon. And but I mean I saw

838
01:04:05.800 --> 01:04:12.679
all the great ones, the Italian
Stone behind the green door, the great

839
01:04:12.679 --> 01:04:15.639
ones anyway, But that's it.
But so you know, the story behind

840
01:04:15.719 --> 01:04:20.400
the Devil and Miss Jones is that
she's she's a nun or something. It

841
01:04:20.400 --> 01:04:24.519
really didn't pay as much attention as
you think I might have um. And

842
01:04:24.559 --> 01:04:30.360
she she commits suicide, but she's
never done anything sinful in her life,

843
01:04:30.360 --> 01:04:32.800
but suicide is a sin. So
she goes to Hell. So she makes

844
01:04:32.800 --> 01:04:38.440
a deal with the devil to go
back, and how should we say,

845
01:04:38.519 --> 01:04:44.679
earn her eternity in hell? And
so that's the that's the premise of the

846
01:04:44.719 --> 01:04:47.320
movie. And so what's the political
lesson from this? No, the moral

847
01:04:47.400 --> 01:04:51.480
lesson, the moral lesson, it's
actually not even a political it's a that

848
01:04:51.679 --> 01:04:57.599
is indeed a moral lesson. Remember
it's it's that. Um. The totality

849
01:04:57.639 --> 01:05:00.760
of it has to be without artistic, lit rary I forget all the different

850
01:05:00.760 --> 01:05:04.679
things off the top of my head
right now merit, And I would argue,

851
01:05:04.880 --> 01:05:10.159
certainly you couldn't say that The Devil
and Miss Jones was without artistic or

852
01:05:10.239 --> 01:05:15.800
literary merit, because it was in
fact a morality play. Well, I

853
01:05:15.800 --> 01:05:21.679
was not expecting that, not either
me either. My my, my,

854
01:05:21.679 --> 01:05:27.400
my, my, My. Impression
of Storey Daniels has completely changed Now.

855
01:05:28.079 --> 01:05:31.519
I don't think they have the classics. They don't have the standards of the

856
01:05:31.559 --> 01:05:38.400
classics anymore. Tell so does does
do. So many series don't count.

857
01:05:38.400 --> 01:05:42.480
So I can't say like British House
of Cards, Oh you could one of

858
01:05:42.480 --> 01:05:46.360
the great political shows, the British
one, but my very well think so

859
01:05:46.480 --> 01:05:50.559
I couldn't possibly comment, Yeah,
the British one is it is so great?

860
01:05:51.000 --> 01:05:55.519
Um, I mean I think that
is the best. I actually and

861
01:05:55.559 --> 01:05:59.400
of course we talked about yes,
minister, also great, but I think

862
01:05:59.480 --> 01:06:02.719
one of the best. If we're
can talk about actual American movies. Um,

863
01:06:02.880 --> 01:06:09.039
the congressional hearing scene and Godfather too, oh yeah, is one of

864
01:06:09.079 --> 01:06:15.880
the great all time political right political
scenes in a movie. And I was

865
01:06:15.239 --> 01:06:17.920
to just pistol a crush off.
I was going to say, also,

866
01:06:18.280 --> 01:06:28.440
um, the one about Watergated.
You know, I like political movies so

867
01:06:28.559 --> 01:06:30.239
much. It's part of the reason
why I couldn't do it, because I

868
01:06:30.280 --> 01:06:35.079
like watching political movies so much.
It's one of the few genres of movies

869
01:06:35.119 --> 01:06:39.039
I actually enjoy that. I don't
even care most of the time if they're

870
01:06:39.320 --> 01:06:45.440
if they're liberal, because I like
Dave, I like Powering one with Richard

871
01:06:45.440 --> 01:06:49.760
gear I like all of those movies. They have taste. It. I

872
01:06:49.840 --> 01:06:56.559
just I like politics. Actually,
yeah, they're terrible. Richard the Political

873
01:06:56.639 --> 01:07:00.440
Consultant is really stupid. Or the
one where Michael Douglas is the president.

874
01:07:00.679 --> 01:07:08.920
Yeah, that's a horrible Yes.
Two comments, John, what is the

875
01:07:09.360 --> 01:07:14.079
Godfather scene with a congressional hearing?
I think What's amazing about that is the

876
01:07:14.119 --> 01:07:18.920
technical uh presentation. It looks like
a real hearing. I mean it reminds

877
01:07:18.960 --> 01:07:23.519
me of the His Chambers hearings from
forty which were the first televised hearings when

878
01:07:23.559 --> 01:07:28.199
almost Noble on TV h the American
President. So you know, I never

879
01:07:28.559 --> 01:07:31.360
there. I have done for the
years when I retired from doing this,

880
01:07:31.480 --> 01:07:36.559
the parodies of the Hitler learns about
seeing from Downfall. Oh yeah. I

881
01:07:36.599 --> 01:07:41.599
actually went to the trouble of getting
a copy of the American President that's in

882
01:07:41.679 --> 01:07:45.760
Spanish, and I wanted to extract
the press conference where Michael Douglas sang,

883
01:07:45.800 --> 01:07:47.679
I'm gonna confiscate your guns. We're
gonna end global warming. All that reduced

884
01:07:47.719 --> 01:07:50.320
stopped watching. By that point I
turned. I didn't get to that far.

885
01:07:53.400 --> 01:07:55.760
You can see where I'm going with
this is I was going to use

886
01:07:55.800 --> 01:07:59.440
the Spanish language scene and then you
know Dubby in the remarks at the bottom

887
01:07:59.440 --> 01:08:01.199
of what he was saying, and
try and start a new me you know,

888
01:08:01.280 --> 01:08:05.480
a new genre of parodies. By
the way, hard anybody seemed to

889
01:08:05.639 --> 01:08:09.239
notice this, the critics, all
the others were too embarrassed to say it.

890
01:08:10.039 --> 01:08:15.039
That movie was a memo from what's
his name Aaron Sarkin on the Hollywood

891
01:08:15.079 --> 01:08:17.920
Left to Bill Clinton. Yeah,
here's what you should be doing as president.

892
01:08:17.960 --> 01:08:21.319
We're disappointed in you. What's the
premise of the movie Hillary has to

893
01:08:21.359 --> 01:08:30.239
be Dead? Yeah? Hillary dies
and Bill Clinton gets to date right Independence

894
01:08:30.319 --> 01:08:32.840
Day because it's sort of got a
little politics in a butt back. For

895
01:08:33.199 --> 01:08:41.279
one, you like the Force one
executive decision because Stevens right at the beginning

896
01:08:42.119 --> 01:08:48.239
and actually in line of fire in
line of fire service agent and Lucretia playing

897
01:08:48.239 --> 01:08:54.720
Renee Risso playing the secret Service.
Annett Benning, I don't know, Benny

898
01:08:55.239 --> 01:09:01.039
plays the squeeze in American President.
Right. She plays Diane Feinstein in that

899
01:09:01.119 --> 01:09:06.840
movie that m libels you, John, Oh, oh really yeah, she's

900
01:09:06.880 --> 01:09:13.800
actually really good as Diane Feinstein.
Although sure, girl, I feel worse

901
01:09:13.880 --> 01:09:19.720
for in that Benning or Diane.
Diane Feinstein comes across as from the time

902
01:09:19.760 --> 01:09:24.359
when she wasn't seen Nile. Now, all right, you mentioned it that

903
01:09:24.359 --> 01:09:26.880
you're much more handsome than the guy
who played you, just so you know

904
01:09:26.960 --> 01:09:29.840
i'd be upset about that, and
I would consider that. Oh I heard

905
01:09:29.880 --> 01:09:31.800
you was like twenty one years old. That's all I want was but he

906
01:09:31.840 --> 01:09:38.000
doesn't doesn't look he doesn't look nearly
as handsome as you, John. So

907
01:09:38.239 --> 01:09:41.920
that's a promise. That's what I
said out loud. Independence Day has a

908
01:09:42.000 --> 01:09:45.439
scene Lucretia that you want to latch
onto for I don't know. It expresses

909
01:09:45.479 --> 01:09:49.039
the problem with your view of Paul
Ryan. It's the when they have the

910
01:09:49.079 --> 01:09:54.039
alien and the lab and the president
is saying to can't we just talk about

911
01:09:54.319 --> 01:09:56.840
you? What do you want?
Can't we reach a deal? What do

912
01:09:56.880 --> 01:10:00.439
you want? And the creatures we
want? Well, that's the left,

913
01:10:00.560 --> 01:10:05.199
right, that is that is the
typical squish Republican negotiating with the left.

914
01:10:05.199 --> 01:10:08.560
The left one I supposed to die. And I thought that was a great

915
01:10:08.600 --> 01:10:12.840
point of that movie. I don't
think that there is a good conservative politics

916
01:10:12.920 --> 01:10:15.399
movie. That's why my standards,
as John points out, are pretty low.

917
01:10:15.600 --> 01:10:19.800
I like Patton, Patton County.
Patton is a great conservative movie,

918
01:10:19.920 --> 01:10:24.319
which is not a conservative movie.
You know, if it was a liberal

919
01:10:24.359 --> 01:10:28.159
movie that that they just are so
work so clueless about well you mean they

920
01:10:28.159 --> 01:10:30.760
thought they thought they were making fun
of all of that. And yeah,

921
01:10:30.760 --> 01:10:33.800
in fact, the patriotism really appealed
to people. I really I didn't realize

922
01:10:35.560 --> 01:10:40.279
was a massively Yes. Remember he
was a very liberal guy. He wouldn't

923
01:10:40.279 --> 01:10:43.319
accept the Academy award. Yeah,
yeah, I don't know if it was

924
01:10:43.359 --> 01:10:45.800
a liberal. I just didn't like
the alcohol. Okay, well, all

925
01:10:45.880 --> 01:10:46.960
right, imagine we were totally off
the rails here. I was going to

926
01:10:47.039 --> 01:10:49.680
the man Curian candidate. But I
don't know if you guys have second movies

927
01:10:49.720 --> 01:10:53.039
to mention or not. I really
like the Man. I didn't really like

928
01:10:53.079 --> 01:10:57.920
the Manchurian original one. No,
not really. I don't really like Frank

929
01:10:57.960 --> 01:11:04.640
Sinatra. Well I watched I watched
that movie Gaslighting. I haven't seen it.

930
01:11:04.720 --> 01:11:08.079
Oh, it's an old, old
movie, the old movie, the

931
01:11:08.079 --> 01:11:15.159
original movie. Yeah, it's actually
quite Yeah, it's a great movie.

932
01:11:15.319 --> 01:11:18.319
It's a great movie. It's where
the term comes from. And that's why

933
01:11:18.439 --> 01:11:21.800
I looked at me, what does
this gaslighting even mean? And so I

934
01:11:21.880 --> 01:11:26.880
know my that's where my investigations took
me was to that movie. And so

935
01:11:26.920 --> 01:11:29.840
we watched it. It was it
was. It's a good movie. It's

936
01:11:29.880 --> 01:11:34.640
a hitchcock, isn't it. Maybe, Well, all right, we're gonna

937
01:11:34.640 --> 01:11:38.600
get John Marini back on because he's
really good at this stuff, and maybe

938
01:11:38.720 --> 01:11:41.600
tied us to Shara is also really
good at this stuff. Happy one some

939
01:11:41.680 --> 01:11:45.439
time, but I think we should
draw to it. Steve, why do

940
01:11:45.479 --> 01:11:48.720
you keep talking about replacing me in
lucresition with other people? I just have

941
01:11:50.039 --> 01:11:57.319
They can't talk about Devil and Miss
Jones. Actually, that would be so

942
01:11:57.359 --> 01:12:00.479
funny to watch John Marini have to
watch the movie movie and then give explain

943
01:12:00.560 --> 01:12:03.840
why it's a movie about politics.
Yes, I would see my place on

944
01:12:03.880 --> 01:12:09.520
this podcast to see that happen.
See So yeah, you go ahead and

945
01:12:09.560 --> 01:12:12.159
think that they're going to be so
great? What's wrong with what John and

946
01:12:12.199 --> 01:12:15.000
I just did? It was?
It was good? Okay? Uh?

947
01:12:16.000 --> 01:12:18.880
John? Do you have a camel
for this week or not? I do?

948
01:12:19.079 --> 01:12:25.039
I do because I don't know If
we use this, I don't think

949
01:12:25.079 --> 01:12:30.239
so. But this was what Kamala
Harris had to say after she met with

950
01:12:30.319 --> 01:12:34.760
the President of Poland about and this
is what she said about Russia's invasion of

951
01:12:34.880 --> 01:12:38.560
Ukraine. I don't think if this. If we have used this, I've

952
01:12:38.600 --> 01:12:42.960
got a backup. It's a classic. But we all watched the television coverage

953
01:12:42.960 --> 01:12:45.800
of Jess yesterday. That's on top
of everything else that we know and don't

954
01:12:45.840 --> 01:12:50.000
know yet based on what we've just
been able to see, and because we've

955
01:12:50.039 --> 01:12:55.560
seen it or not doesn't mean it
hasn't happened. Oh, I didn't know

956
01:12:55.600 --> 01:12:58.159
that one. Yeah, that's a
new one. Right, we haven't used

957
01:12:58.199 --> 01:13:00.000
that one. Right, that's a
new one. Okay, now here's another

958
01:13:00.039 --> 01:13:02.720
one. This is a new one. This apparently, she said, this

959
01:13:02.800 --> 01:13:06.920
is not reported on the websites as
a comimalism. This is just report as

960
01:13:06.920 --> 01:13:12.600
our comments to down you know,
so, you know, down in Tennessee

961
01:13:12.640 --> 01:13:18.760
where the state legislature kicked out two
members of the state legislature for basically trying

962
01:13:18.760 --> 01:13:24.079
to prevent the debate from occurring on
the floor. So she, of course

963
01:13:24.079 --> 01:13:28.399
Harris went down their right away and
said this to a students. She gave

964
01:13:28.399 --> 01:13:35.840
a speech to students right there in
Tennessee to talk about these two of state

965
01:13:35.960 --> 01:13:40.479
legislatures. She said, we meet
you all, and your leadership in this

966
01:13:40.560 --> 01:13:44.239
movement is going to impact people that
you may never meet, people who may

967
01:13:44.279 --> 01:13:47.319
never know your name, but because
of your leadership, they will forever be

968
01:13:47.319 --> 01:13:50.920
benefited. We will not be defeated, we will not be deterred. We

969
01:13:50.920 --> 01:13:54.920
will not throw up our hands when
it's time to roll up our sleeves.

970
01:13:55.439 --> 01:13:57.720
We will fight, we will lead, we will speak with truth, we

971
01:13:57.760 --> 01:14:03.800
will speak about freedom and justice,
and we will march on. It was

972
01:14:03.840 --> 01:14:09.279
just so badly written. I mean, this is a prepared speech. Yeah.

973
01:14:09.319 --> 01:14:12.560
If Hannah Rent were alive today,
she'd say the banality of banality.

974
01:14:13.199 --> 01:14:17.359
I think that she just needs to
hire chat GBT, don't you wouldn't it

975
01:14:17.399 --> 01:14:20.119
be better? She would do better? Yeah? Okay, So I do

976
01:14:20.279 --> 01:14:24.439
have to point out that we didn't
mention the fact that BuzzFeed went out of

977
01:14:24.479 --> 01:14:28.600
business. Yeah that's a feel good
headline. Yes, yes, another feel

978
01:14:28.600 --> 01:14:32.479
good headline, and they're saying that
vice media might go under two. Yeah.

979
01:14:31.800 --> 01:14:36.199
Good. I do want to mention, after our discussions a few times

980
01:14:36.319 --> 01:14:41.840
lately about d I E. D
EI, that there was a major conference

981
01:14:41.960 --> 01:14:47.479
of d EI university professionals where they
all got together and kumbayad and cried and

982
01:14:47.600 --> 01:14:53.479
yeah and yeah. It's been because
they see themselves, how they do their

983
01:14:53.520 --> 01:14:59.560
work in the midst of the kind
of oppression they're experiencing. So that was

984
01:14:59.600 --> 01:15:01.359
good. That was I almost send
it to you guys with might feel good

985
01:15:01.399 --> 01:15:03.720
story of the day, but the
headline wasn't quite clear enough. So I

986
01:15:03.720 --> 01:15:12.680
didn't bother you, but I do
have a Babylon be um betterman felibusters Senate

987
01:15:12.840 --> 01:15:20.039
for seven hours while attempting to say
hello, but yeah, it is funny.

988
01:15:20.119 --> 01:15:23.720
I know. I guess we shouldn't
make fun, but I will leave

989
01:15:23.760 --> 01:15:28.720
it with a um. Because you
mentioned Ukraine. Biden warns that if debt

990
01:15:28.800 --> 01:15:34.760
ceiling isn't raised, we might default
on our obligations to Ukraine. That I

991
01:15:34.800 --> 01:15:40.880
saw, I saw a very funny
one, which was Fox News agreased.

992
01:15:41.000 --> 01:15:46.159
It was Fox News agreased to pay
Dominion Software with eight hundred million CNN pluses.

993
01:15:48.840 --> 01:15:55.479
That was fun. That was good. Yeah, well, okay,

994
01:15:55.239 --> 01:15:59.640
in here for you two married guys. Sorry, man daydreaming during wife's long

995
01:15:59.720 --> 01:16:05.319
story, are praying it doesn't end
with a question. All right, who's

996
01:16:05.319 --> 01:16:09.479
gonna send this out with official salutation? Let's go, Brandon, I always

997
01:16:09.520 --> 01:16:12.840
drink your whiskey. Neat. That
sounds good. Okay, by bye you

998
01:16:12.840 --> 01:18:08.439
guys. This was fun. Ricochet
joined the conversation.