1 00:00:08,519 --> 00:00:13,000 Good afternoon. You're listening to Gambling with an Edge. Now here are your 2 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:18,640 host Bob Dancer and Richard Munchkin. Good afternoon, Welcome to Gambling with an 3 00:00:18,719 --> 00:00:24,199 Edge. I'm Bob Dancer and I'm Richard Munchkin, and today's guest is Michael 4 00:00:24,199 --> 00:00:30,320 Shackelford. Shack was a co host of this podcast for more than a year, 5 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:36,439 came back and visited a number of times, including some Super Bowl prop 6 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:43,600 bets, uh somewhat better than others, and so he Shack is a part 7 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:48,600 of the history of Gambling with an Edge and deserves a chance to say goodbye 8 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,679 to our audience for the last time. So, Michael Shackelford, welcome back 9 00:00:52,719 --> 00:00:56,280 to Gambling with an Edge. Thank you very much for having me. And 10 00:00:56,359 --> 00:01:03,320 I'm honored to be the guests on one of your last and we actually don't 11 00:01:03,359 --> 00:01:06,719 know how last it's going to be. We as a when we take the 12 00:01:06,799 --> 00:01:11,079 show yesterday, we thought this was going to be the penultimate show, and 13 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:15,439 so rich and I we're going to have a mailbag show for afterwards, and 14 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:19,319 then overnight I was you know, Richard, it would be pretty cool if 15 00:01:19,359 --> 00:01:23,359 I interviewed you and you interviewed me for another last show. So the one 16 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,680 you hear next week is going to say it's the last show, and it 17 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,560 wouldn't surprise me if there's one after that, so but who knows. We 18 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:38,400 thank our audience, all right. So the media impetus for the interview with 19 00:01:38,719 --> 00:01:44,879 Shack is a new version of Gambling one O two. So this is like 20 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:49,239 the fourteenth version of that, and it keeps coming out, keeps changing a 21 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:53,519 little bit. So why is it still Gambling one oh two, Version three, 22 00:01:53,799 --> 00:01:59,920 version four rather than ahead another name it is. This is the third 23 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,040 printing of the book. Every time there's a new printing, I updated a 24 00:02:02,079 --> 00:02:06,560 little bit. I had some new games, take out some dead games, 25 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:12,400 and with this third edition, the main new material is going to be on 26 00:02:12,479 --> 00:02:20,520 slot machines, especially vulturable or accumulator slots, and I talk about some particular 27 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:25,439 games and how to tell if it's in a state with a player advantage. 28 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,479 And when does the book due out? I wish I knew. I turned 29 00:02:30,479 --> 00:02:36,479 it in in December of twenty two, so it's I've been waiting four months, 30 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,879 and in my experience with Huntington Press, it's out when it's out, 31 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:46,199 And so I really hate to give out a time frame. Yeah, we 32 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:54,319 all have experience with that. Okay, So you lift eight featable slot machines. 33 00:02:54,919 --> 00:03:01,120 Nine actually nine actually all right, so one of the one of them 34 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:09,400 is cash Mango. Now, there are at least two versions of cash Man 35 00:03:09,479 --> 00:03:15,080 Bingo, So do you treat them the same? What is the difference between 36 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:21,520 the two versions? Oh, in the older version, when you look down 37 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:27,960 at the panel, it will show you how it will have a dot on 38 00:03:28,159 --> 00:03:32,159 each Bingo square that is full, so you can look out and see if 39 00:03:32,199 --> 00:03:38,919 there are three or four, it's almost never a play, and if there's 40 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:44,280 like twenty, it's always a play, and so you can kind of glance 41 00:03:44,439 --> 00:03:46,159 to see if there's a lot of them, in which case you want to 42 00:03:46,159 --> 00:03:50,639 look at it further. In the newer version, you actually have to put 43 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:57,240 ticket or money into the machine and then can't then scroll from screen to screen 44 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:02,800 to screen to see what the current state of the game is. So the 45 00:04:02,879 --> 00:04:09,000 advice that I give in my book and my website applies to both games. 46 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:14,080 It's my understanding that it's just a presentation difference, but the math of the 47 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,120 game is basically the same, and I welcome correction on that. If I'm 48 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:24,279 wrong, I create them the same on your and figuring out these games. 49 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:31,079 Were you able to have part sheets from the manufacturer or a personal experience of 50 00:04:31,199 --> 00:04:39,360 go out and count cycle, or you have a number of friends on your 51 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:45,560 Wizard of Vegas site among other places who do this and maybe you've got some 52 00:04:45,639 --> 00:04:50,639 information from them. It's most Yeah, it's mostly the latter. It is 53 00:04:51,639 --> 00:04:57,959 friends that do vulture slots that give me advice, and I kind of take 54 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:02,079 an amalgamation of all their opinions, and most of them, in fact, 55 00:05:02,079 --> 00:05:08,399 all of them wished to remain nameless. However, with Cashman Mingo, that 56 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:13,639 was the first one I got really serious about, and I I videoed myself 57 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,279 playing, and I did a lot of analysis, and I dug pretty deeply 58 00:05:16,319 --> 00:05:21,519 into that one, and I created my own strategy that other people say sounded 59 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:26,639 reasonable. But with the rest of the games, I got kind of lazy 60 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,839 and I played them a little bit just to make sure the advice I was 61 00:05:30,879 --> 00:05:35,920 getting seemed reasonable. But it's mostly other sources that helped me out. Are 62 00:05:35,959 --> 00:05:41,879 you out there? Are you out there playing the games not just for research 63 00:05:41,959 --> 00:05:46,800 but to make money? Do you actually play? Not very much? Yesterday 64 00:05:46,879 --> 00:05:49,319 I was talking about this topic with a friend at the Suncoast, and I 65 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:55,040 happened again. Coming back to Cashman Mingo. I saw a game that was 66 00:05:55,199 --> 00:05:58,519 cased in like five different places, so of course I jumped in and played 67 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,160 that. But I I only if I'm in a casino for another reason, 68 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,560 I will look at the machines and try to find a play. But I 69 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:13,120 never go to a casino specifically for this topic. And I live in Las 70 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:18,000 Vegas, and everyone seems to sing the blues that it's tough to find good 71 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:25,639 games in Vegas because there's just so much competition from other vultures. That's that's 72 00:06:25,639 --> 00:06:29,959 true. There are a lot of other players. But for those of you 73 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,920 who are interested in the book includes a strategy for cash Maingo, Rich Little 74 00:06:34,959 --> 00:06:41,319 Piggies, Scarab Golden Juggle, Grand Hex Breaker three, Magic of the Nile 75 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:46,519 Ocean, Magic Golden Egypt, Regal Riches, which is also called Prosperity Pearl. 76 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:56,360 Thank you if you. If you want to learn a reasonable for these 77 00:06:56,399 --> 00:07:00,920 games, you a head start to see if advantaged slots is right for you. 78 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:09,959 Um the new version of Gambling one O two uh and you will be 79 00:07:10,199 --> 00:07:13,879 when it comes out, which we don't know when that will be. Well, 80 00:07:13,879 --> 00:07:19,600 you bug Anthony Curtis on that and so uh sorry, Anthony, here's 81 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:27,480 your goodbye. So actually Anthony uh sometimes doesn't know. He's like he's he 82 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,360 sent it off to the printer x number of weeks ago and he was thinking 83 00:07:30,439 --> 00:07:33,240 it was going to be back there. Hold up, it's beyond his control. 84 00:07:33,319 --> 00:07:39,199 And I don't know what the situation is, but um but it's coming 85 00:07:39,839 --> 00:07:45,319 all right now. In addition to those kind of slots, there are also 86 00:07:45,439 --> 00:07:51,480 some must hit bys, which is a type of advantage slot machine where if 87 00:07:51,519 --> 00:07:58,439 you there are numbers, So example, if it's must hit by five hundred, 88 00:07:58,519 --> 00:08:01,120 it might start at two fifty and go up and then when it gets 89 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:07,879 to be a level, it's positive expectation to play it until it gets to 90 00:08:07,959 --> 00:08:13,439 two thousand, gets to five hundred, or you give strategy on when to 91 00:08:13,519 --> 00:08:18,879 get on must hit bys. So some of these are completely random, and 92 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:24,480 some of these are weight at random. So what do you what do you 93 00:08:24,519 --> 00:08:28,800 have to say about that? Michael? Yes, I wrote about this on 94 00:08:28,839 --> 00:08:33,120 my website a long time ago. And as you correctly describe, there will 95 00:08:33,159 --> 00:08:37,720 be a nater and it will say that we are just going to award this 96 00:08:37,799 --> 00:08:43,519 jackpot randomly, and a good example is between two hundred and fifty and five 97 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,720 hundred dollars, So it starts at two fifty, and it grows by either 98 00:08:46,759 --> 00:08:52,039 a certain percentage of money bet or money one and again to guarantee that it 99 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,440 will hit by five hundred and this example, and the way most makers do 100 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:01,919 this is it could be hit anywhere in that range with equal probability. However, 101 00:09:03,399 --> 00:09:09,639 some makers, especially ags, always delay or almost always delay it until 102 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:13,600 the very end of the range, which I frankly think is unethical because I 103 00:09:13,639 --> 00:09:20,960 think it's reasonable to assume that it could hit anywhere in the range with equal 104 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:24,559 probability. So if you see a game at say four hundred and eighty, 105 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,919 it would be tempting to play it thinking it's just got twenty more dollars to 106 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:33,159 go. But if the game never hits until it gets to say four ninety 107 00:09:33,159 --> 00:09:35,919 five, then I think that's a tease, and it's again I think it's 108 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:43,600 unethical, and I don't think the Gaming Control Board should allow it unless it's 109 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:48,480 stayed in the rules somewhere that they do tend to delay hitting these jackpots until 110 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,559 the end, then I would be okay with it, but they do not 111 00:09:52,759 --> 00:09:56,440 they do not disclose any such information in the rule screens. Yeah, a 112 00:09:56,519 --> 00:10:01,399 whole theory of those machines are have the word deluxe on the end, like 113 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:11,120 money Storm Deluxe or Coyote Deluxe, where it almost always waits intellison. It's 114 00:10:11,159 --> 00:10:16,320 a dollar or two before the end before it hits and so but it does 115 00:10:16,399 --> 00:10:20,720 happen, and even when it does, even when it is that way, 116 00:10:20,919 --> 00:10:28,240 it can be good to get on it at a particular number because the amount 117 00:10:28,279 --> 00:10:33,440 of money that you are putting in it's going to be less than the amount 118 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:41,159 of money that you're taking out on average. So learning when these numbers are 119 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:46,480 is part of the game, and it takes a lot of data. It's 120 00:10:46,519 --> 00:10:52,159 but also isn't that going to change in different casinos they may be holding a 121 00:10:52,159 --> 00:10:58,279 different amount. They may have the machine set to hold more or less than 122 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,559 the number you're from filiar with. And so what if you go to another 123 00:11:01,639 --> 00:11:09,200 state and you know, let's say that you know in Las Vegas most places, 124 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:11,360 you know you're going to get on at this number. But now you 125 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:18,759 go over to New Jersey and maybe they're holding a lot more, so you 126 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,039 would be losing money if you got on at the same number. How do 127 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,519 you deal with that? In my opinion, the way these machines are programmed 128 00:11:26,639 --> 00:11:31,639 is, yes, they're dent manufacturer may allow different return percentages, but I 129 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:37,279 think it the random the mystery jackpot feature is the same from game to game 130 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:41,360 for any given type of game. So I think the advice that works in 131 00:11:41,399 --> 00:11:46,759 Nevada would also work in Mississippi. For example, Well, wait a minute, 132 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:52,480 when you calculate that your number for getting on, Let's say you decide 133 00:11:52,919 --> 00:11:56,559 I'm just going to pick a number out of my ass here that this five 134 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:01,559 hundred, you should get on at four eighty. And that's based on the 135 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:07,000 idea that the machine is holding let's say ten percent, and you're going to 136 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:11,919 lose x amount before the jackpot hits. But if you go to another state 137 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:16,360 and that machine is holding fifteen percent, you're going to lose a lot more 138 00:12:16,519 --> 00:12:18,759 before the jackpot hits and you may no longer be playing with an inch. 139 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:26,320 That's a good point. And on my website I indicate a formula for when 140 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:31,120 when the meter is high enough that you should play, And this formula does 141 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:39,559 depend upon the return of the game. And so if you were you were 142 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,679 playing in a more generous casino, you would would have a different entry point 143 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:48,120 than a stingy one. But I think that a ninety percent return is shall 144 00:12:48,159 --> 00:12:52,799 we say, fair to assume as a general average. And it's But by 145 00:12:52,799 --> 00:12:56,840 the way, it's not that the mechanism that determines the mystery jackpot is different 146 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,759 from casino to casino, but it's the expense of playing the game waiting for 147 00:13:01,799 --> 00:13:05,799 that jack pot to hit. Right, you should have a high tree point 148 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,240 at a stingier casino because you're going to lose more money along the way. 149 00:13:09,919 --> 00:13:13,960 Right, But how do you know? You know? I mean, you 150 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,960 can kind of know in Las Vegas, for example, that the strip is 151 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,360 way stingier than the than the locals joints. But you know, when you 152 00:13:22,399 --> 00:13:26,279 go to a new state. You know, if you if you go to 153 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:31,240 Iowa and you've never been there, you don't really have a clue. My 154 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:37,519 advice there is the greater the competition in the local market, the user the 155 00:13:37,519 --> 00:13:41,919 games are probably going to be, and the nicer, the nicer the casino, 156 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,399 the stingier the slots. Just some general advice to go on. And 157 00:13:46,519 --> 00:13:50,200 yes, I'm sure there are many exceptions. Yeah, sure, yeah, 158 00:13:50,639 --> 00:13:56,480 okay, let let um, let's talk about the difference between Like, video 159 00:13:56,519 --> 00:14:01,399 poker and slots are both in the slot department, but they're very, very 160 00:14:01,519 --> 00:14:07,000 very different games. M No, I have some ideas on this, but 161 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:11,799 um, have you played them both enough to to be able to have video 162 00:14:11,799 --> 00:14:16,320 poker and slots are different? Sure, I can speak to that topic. 163 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:22,039 I've played a lot more video poker than video slots, But so go ahead. 164 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:28,799 How are they different? Oh? Well, m video poker is very 165 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,440 mathematical, it's quantifiable. They tell you what the rules are, so it 166 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:37,240 could be analyzed to death as I have done, including you know, very 167 00:14:37,279 --> 00:14:43,200 complicated strategies if you want to really really get close to the maximum optimal strategy 168 00:14:43,279 --> 00:14:46,919 return, and video poker tends to have a very thin advantage, as you 169 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,279 know. So this is the type of thing that if you're a video poker 170 00:14:50,279 --> 00:14:54,559 player, you're probably going to be putting in a lot of hours at the 171 00:14:54,639 --> 00:15:01,840 machine, where as slots is something kind of like hunting. You have to 172 00:15:01,919 --> 00:15:07,639 hunt around the casino, probably looking at one hundred games to find one or 173 00:15:07,679 --> 00:15:11,360 two good ones, and when you find them, you're probably gonna in most 174 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:16,440 cases just played for a short time until that bonus hits, and then off 175 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:20,559 you go looking for the next game. So it's a totally different experience for 176 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:28,679 the player. Sounds like online dating. I like that, well, except 177 00:15:28,879 --> 00:15:33,399 hopefully in online dating you're not done and in a minute and a half after 178 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:41,960 you start. But I suppose some people are good for me the all right. 179 00:15:41,879 --> 00:15:48,879 Yeah. The other other differences isn't on video poker, you largely can 180 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:54,080 know what you're going to be playing when you get to the casino, unless 181 00:15:54,080 --> 00:16:00,200 you're specializing in progressives and you haven't scouted it recently. You know that they 182 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:06,240 have a particular double double bonus game that is that returns such and such an 183 00:16:06,279 --> 00:16:07,559 amount, and you know what the slot club is, and you know what 184 00:16:07,639 --> 00:16:17,799 the promotion is and so so you can predict it. In slot machines, 185 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:23,519 any individual slot machine could be an eighty five or one hundred twenty percent game 186 00:16:23,799 --> 00:16:30,720 or more depending on the level of various progressives or other features on the machine, 187 00:16:32,279 --> 00:16:41,519 and these vary by the player, so you usually so you don't know. 188 00:16:41,559 --> 00:16:44,639 It depends on how many people who don't know how to play the game 189 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:52,879 have played since the jack potts hit. Another difference is in video poker on 190 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:59,440 multi games, and you know that it's say quarter fifty cent dollars, and 191 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:03,119 you know, twelve games on on this machine, and it's going to be 192 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:07,720 the same twelve games every day. But in slot machines there could easily be 193 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:15,359 also three or five denominations and can be three or five or ten, well 194 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:22,440 three or five different numbers of coins per bet, and so any of which 195 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:29,119 could be positive because you don't know who left in what condition. So you 196 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,519 come up to us advantage slot machine, and sometimes you have to check twenty 197 00:17:33,559 --> 00:17:41,240 to thirty different conditions to know whether or not there's one or more plays on 198 00:17:41,279 --> 00:17:47,359 it, and that takes time. It's also very obvious what you're doing, 199 00:17:48,039 --> 00:17:55,559 whereas video poker, you know, if the this is wild game had loosest 200 00:17:55,559 --> 00:17:59,960 pace schedule a week ago on this machine, well it probably still does. 201 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:06,720 Whereas in a slot machine you have to check and you know you need to 202 00:18:06,759 --> 00:18:14,720 do. Is this is really analogous to counting cards versus playing whole cards or 203 00:18:14,799 --> 00:18:19,640 some other kind of advanced strategy at blackjack. And the rap that you hear 204 00:18:19,759 --> 00:18:26,400 from people who don't play these strategies is, oh, well, you can 205 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:30,400 spend all your time scouting and never find anything. But if I'm counting, 206 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:37,519 I can just walk in and sit down and play. So yeah, it's 207 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:44,319 it's very much the same thing that when you're playing more advanced forms of blackjack 208 00:18:45,079 --> 00:18:48,640 or other table games. Yes, a lot of it is the scouting and 209 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,079 you never know what you're going to find, but when you do find it, 210 00:18:52,079 --> 00:18:55,480 it's worth way more than that video poker game that you could have just 211 00:18:55,559 --> 00:18:59,240 walked in and sat down and started playing. Yeah, to that, I 212 00:18:59,279 --> 00:19:04,319 would add that video hooker is extremely quantifiable and the math is known and the 213 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:11,319 strategies are known, whereas everything with slot machines is no one's exactly sure. 214 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,839 Like you can bring up any of these games that can have a player advantage 215 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:21,359 and no two people will probably agree on exactly when to play. It's these 216 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:29,279 strategies are mostly based on personal experience, and so it's it's it's a new 217 00:19:29,319 --> 00:19:34,079 advantage play. And that's why I think that, um, how shall I 218 00:19:34,079 --> 00:19:40,559 put it? That that that there's not that much known about it and you 219 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:45,960 have to get information generally through other players. And in my book I do 220 00:19:45,039 --> 00:19:48,039 touch on nine of them, but there's a lot more than nine out there, 221 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:52,839 and I would also like to go back to something that that Bob said, 222 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,160 is that about the range is I believe you said eighty five percent to 223 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:00,559 one hundred and twenty percent. So I totally agree that game can have a 224 00:20:00,599 --> 00:20:03,039 twenty percent player advantage if it's in a good state, but it can also 225 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,599 be way lower than eighty five percent. If it's in a horrible state. 226 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,960 It might get as low as, say fifty percent. So for that reason, 227 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:18,759 if someone is a recreational slot player and has no interest in learning about 228 00:20:18,839 --> 00:20:22,319 when to play, I would say, don't play an accumulator slot at all, 229 00:20:22,519 --> 00:20:26,160 because most of them are left at a very low state, and you 230 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,480 will probably when you start to play, you'll be playing into a very bad 231 00:20:29,559 --> 00:20:34,319 state most likely. So if you are a slot player and I can't talk 232 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:40,519 you out of playing slots, I say avoid accumulator slots and just play something 233 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:45,839 where the odds are the same every single spin. Let's goind other things in 234 00:20:45,839 --> 00:20:52,559 your book. What else is new in your Gambling one O two version three? 235 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:57,000 So I do have new chapters on Crapless Craps and Face Up Pagat Poker. 236 00:20:57,599 --> 00:21:02,200 Previously, in the second addition, those games were touched on briefly, 237 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:07,319 but because they've become much more popular, I dig into them a little bit 238 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:11,200 deeper. I mean, well, with face up pigut poker, I can 239 00:21:11,279 --> 00:21:17,640 see that, But crap less craps, I mean what, how how deep 240 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,880 can you dig? I mean what? What? What? What's new there? 241 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,960 Yeah? I mean you there. I don't think that. Previously I 242 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:30,400 went into such things as the odds on place bets on the two, three, 243 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,839 eleven, and twelve, um. But yeah, again, there's there's 244 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:38,160 not not much to say about crapless craps. But I would like to say, 245 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:44,559 just real briefly, that the odds are better and conventional craps and crapless 246 00:21:44,559 --> 00:21:49,759 craps. And I can't imagine that you thoroughly cover face up pigut poker, 247 00:21:49,839 --> 00:21:53,720 because that could take a whole book in and of itself, couldn't it. 248 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:59,559 Well, it's it's easy to play because it's obvious how to set your cards, 249 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,039 and I've run simulations on the game, so I think that I do 250 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,839 cover everything that really needs to be said about it. Huh, Well, 251 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:12,319 I guess the dealer has a fixed strategy, right, And as long as 252 00:22:12,319 --> 00:22:15,359 you know that, then yeah, I guess you're right. I guess it 253 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,279 would be obvious. Yep. I mean, well that you don't even need 254 00:22:18,319 --> 00:22:22,880 to know the house way because the dealer will sit there and arrange their hand, 255 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:27,079 so you know exactly what you're facing against. Oh they arrange there's before 256 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:32,279 you do. So oh yeah, okay, thus the game face up. 257 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:38,880 Yeah, okay. You've also been working on Ultimate X Bonus Streak. Is 258 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:44,319 this in your book or on your website or is this attitude? Yep, 259 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,960 this is very fresh on my website. I started discussing it in my forum 260 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,640 about a month ago, but I finally put together a page on my website 261 00:22:52,759 --> 00:22:56,039 on Fulturing Ultimate X Bonus Streaks, So I'm pretty proud of that. It 262 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:03,960 was not an easy thing to analyze. Okay, in the past on bonus 263 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:10,960 streak I have you can look at the screen and count up the number of 264 00:23:11,079 --> 00:23:17,920 multipliers, and if it's more than the game called for, then you have 265 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:26,920 an advantage. So if it's a ten play game, so you're playing ten 266 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:32,599 coins a line, if the multiplier is at least twenty, then it's a 267 00:23:32,599 --> 00:23:36,880 positive play for at least one hand. Now that was so that you could 268 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,839 get one or two hands out of that. It didn't yield many long term 269 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:47,400 plays, and so although it could, so it's largely a one and done 270 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:52,599 situation, and so I stopped looking at that. So on your strategy is 271 00:23:52,599 --> 00:23:59,359 that how often do you get plays? So my strategy looks more than just 272 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,559 one hand in the future. You're absolutely right that let's look at ten play 273 00:24:03,599 --> 00:24:07,359 double double bonus. For example, with the eight five pay table, if 274 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,359 you have twenty one or more multipliers on the very next hand, it's obvious 275 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:15,920 that you should play it. However, if you look at the next two 276 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,799 hands, if you have thirty four or more, then my strategy says to 277 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:25,359 play. And if you look at the next three hands and you see forty 278 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:30,480 three or more multipliers, then you should play. And the reason that you 279 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:37,519 should play with numbers that are less than say forty and sixty, respectively, 280 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:44,960 is because these multipliers have a chance to grow and you may get multipliers on 281 00:24:45,039 --> 00:24:52,039 hands that had only a one x multiplier right now. So it's again the 282 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:56,880 multipliers. You can either earn new ones or old ones can grow up to 283 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:02,200 a twelve. Now your strategy on this, So so you're talking about now 284 00:25:02,279 --> 00:25:06,119 the strategy get one when to jump in, which is an important part. 285 00:25:07,079 --> 00:25:15,759 But regular Ultimate X vulturing you you're betting five coins, so which is a 286 00:25:15,759 --> 00:25:19,480 half bet, and so you play basic strategy for that paid table, having 287 00:25:19,519 --> 00:25:26,920 nothing to do with Ultimate X strategy, but on bonus streak since um you 288 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:34,240 still are earning bonuses, and so your strategy needs to be somewhat um bonus 289 00:25:34,279 --> 00:25:40,960 based rather than just based game based. Do you agree with that? Oh? 290 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,160 I absolutely agree. Agree that for the long term player, you follow 291 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:51,519 a much different strategy than conventional video poker. However, for the vulture, 292 00:25:51,799 --> 00:25:55,119 it's they're not sitting there and playing it for a long period of time. 293 00:25:55,559 --> 00:26:00,119 They want to hit those immediate wins and then lead once the game doesn't have 294 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:07,799 enough multipliers anymore. So under that hit and run strategy, I think that 295 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:12,680 the correct strategy is very similar to conventional video poker because you don't really care 296 00:26:12,759 --> 00:26:18,680 that much about earning future multipliers. You want to get the ones that are 297 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:23,640 there right now, and cut and cut and run. All right. One 298 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:29,240 other thing I want to mention with Shack that and the idea of it's all 299 00:26:29,279 --> 00:26:36,759 your fault. Bonnie reminded me last night when Bonnie and I are just about 300 00:26:36,759 --> 00:26:42,559 to celebrate our ninth anniversary, and approximately nine and a half years ago, 301 00:26:45,039 --> 00:26:48,279 we were taping the show, and so Bonnie came to see what taping the 302 00:26:48,319 --> 00:26:51,559 show was all about. This is when it was actually a radio podcast, 303 00:26:52,039 --> 00:26:56,680 so it was in a studio and Michael was the host at that time. 304 00:26:56,519 --> 00:27:02,920 So apparently one time when I went to the restroom while Bonnie and Shack we're 305 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,119 in the studio before the taping, he said, if you hook up with 306 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:12,000 Bob, you're going to go on a lot of cruises. And so Bonnie 307 00:27:12,319 --> 00:27:15,759 remembered that and she told me. She says she thinks she's been on twenty 308 00:27:15,759 --> 00:27:23,359 four cruises in the last nine years, and she didn't believe it was true 309 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:29,160 when Shack told her that, but she wanted to. So I don't know 310 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:34,160 how much that affected Bonnie's decision to finally say yes. But it's so if 311 00:27:36,079 --> 00:27:40,440 if Shaq actually had anything to do with her saying yes, and I owe 312 00:27:40,519 --> 00:27:44,599 him big time because my life was working very well being hooked up with Bonnie. 313 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,599 So with all of that, see, so it's all your fault, 314 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,759 Mike. Well, all that, let's do some commercials and then when you 315 00:27:52,799 --> 00:27:56,480 have some more questions for Mike tales from the Felt is a new card counting 316 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:02,359 and advantage play coffee table book that takes you inside the grind. 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The game 325 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:44,160 of the week is Double Super Times Pay, which requires seven coins per line. 326 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,319 To play. You receive a one in fifteen chance to get a two 327 00:28:48,519 --> 00:28:55,960 x through ten x multiplier on the deal and a second independent one and fifteen 328 00:28:56,039 --> 00:29:00,640 chance of getting a two x ten x multiplier on them. If you receive 329 00:29:00,759 --> 00:29:07,599 two multipliers, say three X and four x, they are added together into 330 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,640 seven x, not multiplied into twelve x. If you get a delt Royal 331 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:18,440 flush with one chance in six hundred and fifty thousand round numbers, there's still 332 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,279 a one in fifteen chance to get a multiplier, but if you do, 333 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,319 it's always twenty x combined for the deal in the draw. The return on 334 00:29:26,359 --> 00:29:32,440 the game is approximately half percent more on the base game, and no strategy 335 00:29:32,519 --> 00:29:37,519 deviations are required to play this game, but it doesn't play like it's it's 336 00:29:37,519 --> 00:29:45,799 a half percent more. So much of the return it's on this delt Royal 337 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:53,680 flush twenty x multiplier that the basic if you round off one and six and 338 00:29:53,759 --> 00:30:00,279 fifty thousand times one in fifteen to be it never happens, and that takes 339 00:30:00,279 --> 00:30:06,640 a big chunk out of it, and so so it's going to be. 340 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,599 It could go to feel a lot tighter than a half percent lizard in the 341 00:30:08,599 --> 00:30:15,119 base game, but you could have that life changing experience. Everyone seems to 342 00:30:15,119 --> 00:30:18,839 be talking about sports betting lately. 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All right, so you have been Michael Sacho heard the Wizard 351 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:07,000 of Odds for a sizable number of years. How long do you plan to 352 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:12,799 day Wizard of Odds? Thanks for the question. I am almost fifty eight 353 00:31:12,839 --> 00:31:18,359 as I as we do this interview, and I am thinking about hanging up 354 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:23,599 the Wizard hat when I turn six feet in May of twenty twenty five, 355 00:31:23,799 --> 00:31:30,799 and I'm already gradually entering into retirement as I cut back on my Wizard duties 356 00:31:30,799 --> 00:31:36,000 and private consulting. However, that may be change if there's, say a 357 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:41,880 big downturn in the economy. So do you expect the Wizard of Odds website 358 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:52,559 and all the information on there too to last there indefinitely and not being updated. 359 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,000 But if I wants to use one of your tools or information. It 360 00:31:56,039 --> 00:32:00,799 will stay there after you're no longer the wizard or exact and disappeared too. 361 00:32:00,759 --> 00:32:06,640 So as most people know, I sold the site in twenty fourteen and it 362 00:32:06,799 --> 00:32:10,200 is owned by my boss, and I am sure that he is going to 363 00:32:10,319 --> 00:32:15,440 keep it around. It makes, as far as I know, a lot 364 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:20,920 of money, and I'm sure that he wants to keep that going. It 365 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:27,279 may be that somebody else takes over, shall we say the role is of 366 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,400 the wizard that I don't know. That's up to him, but I'm absolutely 367 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,880 sure that the site will remain there. Do you have a wizard hat, 368 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:40,799 our caper or one that you are going to turn over to whoever is next 369 00:32:40,839 --> 00:32:49,680 in line, perhaps in a figurative way of speaking, Absolutely, I would 370 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:55,039 like to see somebody who I respect fill my shoes, and I would absolutely 371 00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:02,599 welcome a transition period where I enter this person. Still don't know what the 372 00:33:02,599 --> 00:33:07,799 future holds with that, but I would very much like to see the sight 373 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:15,880 still have the same standards that it has now. Actually, I know somebody 374 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:22,440 who who might be an appropriate wizard. I will talk to him and if 375 00:33:22,559 --> 00:33:27,319 somebody, um uh, he might be, I'm not sure. I don't 376 00:33:27,359 --> 00:33:30,240 know. How how if he looks good in black? But we'll have to 377 00:33:30,279 --> 00:33:36,519 find out. So when you fade into retirement, do you have plants? 378 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,359 I mean, you're gonna travel the world, are you? He's gonna go 379 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:45,519 out play slot machines? No, I really am gichy to travel the world, 380 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:51,160 espen, especially doing adventurous things like I'd like to hike lots of climb 381 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:57,039 lots of mountains, bicycle all over the country and the world, and river 382 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:01,519 rafting, kayaking. HI really have a lot, a long list of ideas 383 00:34:01,519 --> 00:34:05,839 of things that I'd like to do, and I'd like to do as many 384 00:34:05,839 --> 00:34:09,559 as possible before I get too old to do them. Yeah, some people 385 00:34:09,599 --> 00:34:14,920 would say sixty is already too old, but what do they know. I 386 00:34:15,039 --> 00:34:22,519 am you chase eclipses, Mike, right, You're going to wake o for 387 00:34:22,599 --> 00:34:27,360 the eclipse? Um, are you going to start chasing tornadoes as well? 388 00:34:28,119 --> 00:34:30,760 I never thought about the tornadoes. I would actually like to see a tornado 389 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,880 once in my life. You don't see very many here in Las Vegas. 390 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,079 But but you're a But I love total eclipses. And for those who don't 391 00:34:39,119 --> 00:34:45,760 know that there's going to be a total eclipse of the Sun running through from 392 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:51,000 through Mexico, cutting into Texas and then going northeast up to Maine and then 393 00:34:51,079 --> 00:34:55,079 into Canada. In April eight, twenty twenty four is the date, and 394 00:34:55,440 --> 00:35:02,280 I already booked Airbnb as well as some hotel rooms in Waco, Texas. 395 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:08,559 Why Waco exactly because the totality path goes right over Waco, so they're going 396 00:35:08,599 --> 00:35:15,519 to get I believe, four minutes and fifteen seconds of totality, which is 397 00:35:15,559 --> 00:35:20,480 almost as much as you can get anywhere. And other big cities that are 398 00:35:20,599 --> 00:35:25,760 going to be in the totality path are Austin, Dallas, I believe, 399 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:31,239 Indianapolis, and Cleveland and Buffalo, but they may not necessarily be right in 400 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:37,719 the middle of the path like Waco is. So there's a very lively discussion 401 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:43,199 about the eclipse in my forum at Wizard of Vegas. But I highly recommend 402 00:35:43,599 --> 00:35:47,519 anybody who can see it to see it and plan in advance because the hotel 403 00:35:47,639 --> 00:35:53,599 rooms I have already booked up along the path. Traffic can be terrible on 404 00:35:53,639 --> 00:35:59,199 the day of the eclipse, So try to be someplace. Try to stay 405 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:05,400 someplace that already in the path if you can, yeah there and if you're 406 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,920 comparing Waco and Buffalo. Waco is more likely to be sunny and clear than 407 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:16,159 Buffalo is now I forgot to say that. And although you could charter an 408 00:36:16,159 --> 00:36:20,840 airplane and be above clouds, so that so the weather it wo't matter for 409 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,000 the most part. But that's a it's a more expensive option than most people 410 00:36:24,039 --> 00:36:31,880 are probably interested in enduring. We spoke earlier about face up Pie out poker. 411 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:39,400 So there was a big jackpot got over six million dollars not so long 412 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:45,599 ago. Did you, uh, did you analyze that at the time or 413 00:36:45,599 --> 00:36:49,119 how did that go? Oh? Absolutely, there was a very lively discussion 414 00:36:49,119 --> 00:36:52,079 about that on my website, and I gave updates about the jackpot all the 415 00:36:52,119 --> 00:36:59,360 time, and it hit at six point four million, and it's and it 416 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:04,960 was a big player advantage at the time that it got hit. In fact, 417 00:37:05,039 --> 00:37:08,960 I think it was about about one hundred dollars an hour play, even 418 00:37:09,079 --> 00:37:15,480 assuming a twenty five or fifty dollars required base bet, and even if you 419 00:37:15,559 --> 00:37:21,079 assumed paying say thirty seven percent taxes on the jackpot, it was still mathematically 420 00:37:21,119 --> 00:37:24,519 speaking, a very strong play. But if you didn't hit a jackpot, 421 00:37:24,519 --> 00:37:30,400 you'd probably be losing about one hundred dollars an hour chasing after it. So 422 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,679 it was a very high volatility play that was not right for everybody. I 423 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:39,400 did play it a little bit, but I didn't feel it was worth it 424 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:44,519 for me to give up other things to play it. Yeah, a game 425 00:37:44,679 --> 00:37:47,599 like that, people learned the difference between the main and the median. Yep, 426 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,239 all right, did you have any you were a host for over a 427 00:37:54,320 --> 00:38:00,599 year, do you have any specific memories of gambling with an edge that favorite 428 00:38:00,639 --> 00:38:05,920 memories? I think the most memorable show for me was when we had Cocktail 429 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:14,840 Doll was really Dolly Wong as our guest, and she was I wanted to 430 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:20,000 do shows when I was a co host that weren't necessarily about becoming a better 431 00:38:20,039 --> 00:38:23,400 gambler, but more about the culture of Las Vegas and getting to know some 432 00:38:24,079 --> 00:38:30,599 regular What about just regular jobs and you know, the pros and cons of 433 00:38:30,599 --> 00:38:35,559 these different occupations. So I was friends with a cocktail waitress at the New 434 00:38:35,599 --> 00:38:38,840 York New York, and she already had a website and a blog about her 435 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:45,840 profession, and I just found her fascinating and I loved her articles and her 436 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:50,000 stuff. So we had her as a guest and Bob, I'll let you 437 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,800 talk about that experience, but it was it was a very I thought, 438 00:38:53,840 --> 00:39:02,719 a very fun show that was interesting not just doing anything happen but I but 439 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:07,199 Michael enjoyed her and was if he could have talked her and going out and 440 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:12,360 having a drink and chatting for a little bit afterwards, he would have been 441 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:21,199 amenable to that. And she comes in with a new boyfriend and neither one 442 00:39:21,199 --> 00:39:27,119 of them could keep their hands off of the other during the taping of the 443 00:39:27,159 --> 00:39:35,559 show, and so her hormones were just going crazy. And so I suspect 444 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,639 that was that part was disappointing to Shaq because she was obviously going to be 445 00:39:38,679 --> 00:39:43,360 busy after the show, had no time for a drink with him, whether 446 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,400 they had another one some other time or not. But that that was kind 447 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:54,559 of interesting to watch our guest on the show. Basically we're ready to tell 448 00:39:54,639 --> 00:40:00,719 him you get a room. That just seems so weird that they would be 449 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:06,000 doing that in the studio while she's talking on the air. That's just bizarre 450 00:40:06,119 --> 00:40:10,639 to me. Yeah, and back then we had a producer because it was 451 00:40:10,679 --> 00:40:15,679 a radio show. His name was Leonard, if I remember right, and 452 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:21,119 he was not happy with some of the language that Dolly was using. Oh, 453 00:40:21,199 --> 00:40:22,880 he probably had to be bleeping. I was AM radio, so he 454 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:28,599 had to be bleeping it. Yeah. May I quote one of the things 455 00:40:28,599 --> 00:40:32,599 that I'm sure he did bleep by all means Okay, so I don't remember 456 00:40:32,639 --> 00:40:38,239 the exact word edge, But Dolly said something to the effect of I'm a 457 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:45,320 very successful cocktail waitress. And I think I said something like, why do 458 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,800 you think you may do better than other ones? And she said something like, 459 00:40:49,159 --> 00:40:52,960 I think it's because I'm hot and have big tits. I think you 460 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:58,519 can say that on the radio nowadays. But but yeah, it's things have 461 00:40:58,679 --> 00:41:02,159 changed now. She is she still writing or do you know? Or no, 462 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:07,679 she is. I don't think she's very active at it anymore. Sad 463 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,800 to say, do you know if she's still a cocktail address? I think 464 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:15,920 she is. She. I do follow her Facebook account and she very rarely 465 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:20,000 posed to it, but once in a while she does. And I'm she's 466 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,039 she's still they're at the New York, New York and is still looking good 467 00:41:23,079 --> 00:41:28,800 and she seems to not age at all. Yeah, that was that was 468 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:30,079 I don't know, eight or nine years ago, ten years ago, something 469 00:41:30,119 --> 00:41:35,519 in that range. And uh, and you can't. You can find the 470 00:41:35,599 --> 00:41:38,239 episode at Gambling with an Edge dot com. Uh, they're all there. 471 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:44,840 So all right. One of one of my favorite shows that we haven't really 472 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:51,119 talked about, and this one chap wasn't. There was m Kelly's son and 473 00:41:51,639 --> 00:41:58,039 along with Lori Chang as an interpreter talking about the Phil kelly Son was with 474 00:41:58,079 --> 00:42:04,519 Phil Ivey and Bargato and Crawford on the whole cardinging. It was a delight 475 00:42:07,599 --> 00:42:15,960 Yeah, edge sorting and um so there was that was really interesting. I 476 00:42:16,039 --> 00:42:22,599 do remember one of them, actually, I guess what I remember was one 477 00:42:22,639 --> 00:42:25,480 of my one liners. I lived for one liners that I do, and 478 00:42:27,039 --> 00:42:30,760 often my one liners don't land as well as they're supposed to. They sound 479 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,800 really good in my head and then when I say, am I going oh 480 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,199 dear? I didn't really mean to say that, but on this one they 481 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:44,599 were. She was saying why she likes uh back raw and the idea was 482 00:42:44,679 --> 00:42:49,719 you can get really big bets down because like in Blackjack, she said, 483 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,519 you can. They rarely ever let you bet more than twenty five thousand a 484 00:42:53,599 --> 00:42:58,760 hand, and so my comment was only twenty five thousand, man, you 485 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,960 can't make any money that way so I was. I was proud of that 486 00:43:04,039 --> 00:43:07,559 line, such as it was. But um, each of us live for 487 00:43:07,639 --> 00:43:10,480 different things. Do you have a favorite show that you liked, Richard, 488 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,960 Well, that one that was definitely a really good show. Um, you 489 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:22,360 know, my favorite shows are the ones with the Vegas old timers. So, 490 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:28,400 uh, like the Mike Sexton Show. You know, I love these 491 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:32,920 old stories about Vegas back in the day and the crazy betting and the So 492 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:38,760 the Mike Sexton Show was one U two shows with Billy Baxter. Um, 493 00:43:39,159 --> 00:43:45,559 yeah, those those are my favorites, those guys from from way back telling 494 00:43:45,639 --> 00:43:50,719 stories about what it was like. Dewey Tomko was another one. Yeah, 495 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:57,079 and then when you get Stanford Wong or Ed Thorpe as, these are legends 496 00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,840 in our in our industry. It's like Philip, Well, that's pretty cool. 497 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:08,440 Another one I liked was during the Jeopardy right after James Holtzhauer had his 498 00:44:09,119 --> 00:44:14,880 multi million dollars run, he came on the show and said he had a 499 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:19,199 choice between coming onto our show. He was also invited to go to Good 500 00:44:19,199 --> 00:44:22,679 Morning America and be on that show, and he chose Gambling with an Edge, 501 00:44:22,079 --> 00:44:28,719 in which case I lived off of that comment for months, I thought 502 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,320 that was pretty cool. So, Michael Schackoper, do you have any final 503 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,400 words or thoughts to our listeners about your involvement with the show? Well, 504 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:40,960 thank you for asking. I believe that between being a co host for a 505 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:45,239 while and lots of appearances on the show, I think I've been on about 506 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:51,440 eighty and I it's been I'm very proud to have been a part of this 507 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,519 show. I think it's a great show. There's nothing else, in my 508 00:44:53,559 --> 00:44:58,199 opinion, that compares to it. So thank you very much for having me 509 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:04,159 for every single show. Thank you and thank you. And each co host 510 00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:10,880 is different, and so each one adds something that the other ones don't. 511 00:45:12,639 --> 00:45:17,840 And so I learned from both of you two and the guests that you selected, 512 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:22,679 and thank you both and Frank neilin. Oh you know what, while 513 00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:30,360 we're thanking people, I just want to say I want to thank I guess 514 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:34,760 I don't want it. Well, So first of all, I want to 515 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,320 thank a guy we will call Nick, who designed our logo. About ten 516 00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:42,960 years ago. We went through two or three or four different logos and he 517 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:49,519 designed the one that finally stuck and out of the blue a couple of years 518 00:45:49,559 --> 00:45:54,119 ago, he emailed me a sharper one. He was saying, you know, 519 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:59,679 it was looking kind of shoddy. I guess maybe the technology was a 520 00:45:59,679 --> 00:46:04,159 little better, so he sent me a crisper one. So we want to 521 00:46:04,159 --> 00:46:07,639 thank him. I want to thank the person. And I didn't realize I 522 00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:12,800 was going to do this until just now, so I didn't look up his 523 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,440 name, but the guy who did the current opening music for the show, 524 00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:22,679 who is an avid listener, so I want to thank him, And most 525 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:28,159 importantly, I also want to thank mister Doppy, who has been doing our 526 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:34,239 show notes for the last five years, which is a thankless job, and 527 00:46:34,519 --> 00:46:37,719 he has never missed an episode in that five years that he's been doing it. 528 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:42,360 So I really want to thank all of them. Yeah, and when 529 00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:52,440 we started out, we had a musical logo using money as a song and 530 00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:58,079 want the announced rover at KLIS, which is the AM station, whose voice 531 00:46:58,199 --> 00:47:05,000 is very low and he's actually in a in a fifties rock band. It's 532 00:47:05,079 --> 00:47:08,719 just great the way he would say welcome to gambling with an edge. But 533 00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:12,880 we had to use that. We had to close that after a while because 534 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:19,480 we didn't have license to use that particular song. But but I enjoyed his 535 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:24,159 way. He would say, welcome to gambling, so that was cool, 536 00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:30,679 all right. Thank you Michael for today. Thank you for your support over 537 00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:35,519 the years on the Gambling with an Edge. Thank you Richard Grunt and had 538 00:47:35,559 --> 00:47:38,079 lots of royal flushes. Everybody, good day,