What is krak Alac and fellows Thermo Nuclear A efforts. I am Dana Valley
coming at you with my certified fan tabulous Thermo Nuclear AF co host mister Grant
Hughes. We are going to get to our all NBA, All League,
All Defense, all Rookie teams on this podcast. Go check out the Awards
podcast. It was over two hours long. It's on YouTube, Spotify,
Apple, wherever you get your podcasts, and hey, since I'm saying it
now, subscribe to us if you haven't already and you're listening to this.
Grant though, the most important question before we get started, how the heck
are you doing? I'm doing really well. I am excited to talk about
the thing I forgot to prep for last time, which is all the all
NBA, All Rookie and All Defense teams. And I am also excited because
any of my picks that are not good won't matter because I won't be alone
because you made all the same ones. Yeah, and look, this was
still really hard. These are our official picks. There's no go, no
takebacks. This season's almost over, and I'm still like equivocating on some of
them. I'm not gonna lie. I had some real thoughts about my fifth
first team spot, like up to when we started talking, and I'm still
having some I have takes on whether I mean, we should just get into
this at this point. We're gonna We're gonna begin with Uh, We're gonna
begin with all NBA, because that's what I mean. Grant kind of demanded
it. I think is that we'll say demanded work to small let's we like
to front load. We're gonna begin with all NBA. And the last time
we had done this, we had said, Okay, there are five locks
or four locks for the first team. I am no longer convinced that there
are are four. I think there are three, but I'm curious as to
where you like. I feel like I'll say it this way and maybe we
could feel it. I think the three locks for me are are Jokic,
SGA, and Luca. Those are three of my locks. I agree.
So you're you must, then, by the process of elimination, be suggesting
that Yannis is less of a lock for you now than he was when we
last did this. So yes, and I think it's because I I think
it's the Bucks had been weird. He's been part of the weirdness, especially
at the beginning of the season, him and Dame never feeling like they've quite
meshed. I think Janice has done a good job, especially later on in
the season, carrying some units that may be quite frankly, like he shouldn't
have any business carrying. But like the defense has been weird all year and
his everyone's wondering why haven't they tried using him a lot differently this year on
defense, just like that's never been his strength, and then do you penalize
him for that? I say all this, and this is what I wanted
to use as the launching more for the discussion. We can talk about Jokic,
SGA, and Luca, but like this, I differentiate is my point
between All NBA and MVP, because the value terms in MVP makes me wait
the team impact and the performance overall more, whereas if you look at Giannis's
numbers, they are just video game stupid. He is still one of the
best defenders in the NBA, even though I don't think he's going to make
an All Defense team this year, so he was still kind of like a
fringe lock to me because I'm just looking at these individual numbers that he's putting
up and separating it from Okay, well, the Bucks have been weird,
and maybe he's not having this impact as much when he's you know, look,
the Bucks are winning the minutes he plays without Brook and Damian Lillard,
which is a testament to him, and so that's part of the calculus.
But when I was trying to think of, oh, does he need to
is he still kind of a lock? I kind of got to a point
where I was like, oh, I don't know if he's a lock.
And he ended up he ended up making I say all this, he ended
up making both of our first teams. I'll throw it up there. So
he ended up with the four same guys there. I'm just curious as to
how you feel about that or was it he just auto inclusion for you?
Well, the reason I framed my question to you the way I did was
because I do think Yoannest to me, felt like less of a lock than
he was when we last talked, and really, like, you know,
I don't know how long, what percentage of the season, it has been
obvious to me that these four guys belonged on All NBA First Team. I
still think he belongs, it's just less certain I think as the bond,
yeah, like as the Bucks continued to not impress. I also though I
look at MVP and All NBA a little differently too. I'm sure I've talked
about this where it's like MVP, it's like the v really the value valuable
component of it really does do a lot of the lifting. And it's so
it's like you look it on off, you look at all the things we
talked about when we did MVP. The numbers really matter for All NBA though,
And I think this actually weirdly helps Giannis, who who does have the
crazy numbers. Where it's like I still this is my justification putting Kauai on
when we did this last time on first team, it's you kind of just
like, let's if you imagine, like we say, let's be real though,
like who's actually the best player. It's it's such like you know,
that's a fuzzy way to do it. It's like not very scientific, but
like Yannis is still that guy to me. And if you some of the
other names that I would consider, I would just say, like, if
you tell me I got to pick a guy to build my team around starting
tomorrow, I'm still taking Yannis over basically everybody but the three other guys,
and maybe I would take him over someone like SGA. I don't know,
like you know, so it's again it's unscientific or less scientific maybe than MVP.
But I think actually framing it that way for me makes it easier to
keep Jannis in this group, uh than otherwise. But yeah, like I
do think I think it's totally reasonable if you're having like some misgivings about putting
him with those first three guys because the first three guys just have unassailable cases.
I think, like there's no no rational person is not going to have
those three I don't think uh, in the you know, on first Yeah,
good luck coming up with I want to see someone make the case for
one of those three guys not making it. But what I will say,
since we don't really have anything to add about them, and we did have
a more in depth discussion about them with MVP, I do want to note
I I say this every year. I hate the way the MVP debate is
framed. I probably even hate the way that I framed it, like during
some of our discussions. But there are people that were it's you know,
fans are gonna fan where they're gonna. I think we had a bunch of
comments that said, putting Luca's in the top two of m VP and it
isn't too Putting him any lower is disrespectful and it's like, all right,
so it's disrespecting Luca not voting him for MVP, or it's what more does
Luca have to do to win MVP? Or Luca doesn't have But it's like,
I don't love this the way it's framed. Where's it's not just about
Luca, it's Yo kich is out here doing this other stuff too, And
it's so, what the And I'm not I'm not I'm just using Luca as
an example. I'm not trying to chop down this. But it's Luca is
scoring more points. I think he has the advantage, he has the advantage
in assists, but like, do we not care that Jokic is the better
defender to or that he elevates the Nuggets offense just as much? And if
you know, I hate the way it works. There's like a give and
take to it where it's we've even said, oh, well, look at
Jason Tatum supporting cast and all the help he has and then I've seen a
lot of the way he's trained for the Mavericks, so it's like he doesn't
have an all Star teammate. Or it's that way with Calon Brunson, like,
look, I know Julius Raynel telling me of the All Star but look
at what he's doing on his own and it's okay, Well, Jokic techny
doesn't have an All Star teammate. And then it's well Jamal Murry's at that
level, and so we just keep moving the goalpost to make the argument for
if you've locked in on one person and are unwilling to consider other entrance to
it. Like the problem with the MVP discussion, or one of the problems
is it has to be more about than just oh, look what Luka is
doing. If you pick Luca to make MVP, I actually think he has
an argument and Ka, you want to pick any of them, I'm absolutely
fine with it. But it's not he literally can't do anything more. How
is this like, no, there are other guys who are part of this,
and it's like, you know, oh, look at what Luca has
done with this roster. It's okay, Well, Jokic has the best team
in the Western Conference right now, and technically he doesn't have any All Stars
on his team either, And are you now going to say that Kyrie erving
isn't All Star caliber so Luca's doing it all on his own. It's a
not denigrating Luca's MVP case. Like I said, any three of these,
any one of these three, I think if you want to vote for them,
I think there are cases to be made. Hey, this is this
is why I just take umbrage with the fact that if you lock in on
somebody or you're even a fan of this team, that player, and that's
who you want to pick, and you're not willing to consider other arguments are
just certain priors And like, maybe this is hypocritical because we've had jokicic to
top this list for even when it seemed like it was more of a competition
between him and SGA or but I just I hate the MVP discussion. I
think, well, I would say that now this is going to sound like
something an asshole would say, and like maybe maybe I'm just telling on myself,
but you've lost my attention if your argument is it's disrespectful to x y
Z, because that's not as serious you're not having you're not interested in having
a discussion. Like you've set your you, you've put your anchor down,
and you're now like attacking the logic that someone like you don't care what the
reasons are. So like, I don't know, I don't think you need
to let's have a little a little talk. I don't think you need to
engage with someone that's going to start the conversation with you have disrespected him,
because like, what the fuck what are you talking about this? Yeah?
I just read them now, I won't engage. Yeah, no, yeah,
we've we've set up a nice straw person here because like you know,
this is we've just made someone say a hypothetically dumb thing and we're we're taking
them down now. But like that, if you want to vote for Luca,
awesome, there's a lot of evidence that you can use to support your
case for why he's the m v P. You just have to acknowledge that
there are at least two and maybe more other guys who's have a arguments that
are just as good or bad. Like, yeah, I don't hate the
MVP discussion because I think it can be had civilly and rationally. I hate
any discussion when it gets stupid like that, like we're you know, when
when it's motivated by bias or fandom or whatever, it's like, we're gonna
have a serious discussion. We can do that, we can compare numbers or
whatever, how whatever your criteria are. But like the disrespectful angle is always
like it's so hollow, like doesn't mean anything, you know, And I
always even when I'm so reticent now and this is probably this is a flaw
of Minelet to make clear its I operate under the assumption that I'm just wrong
all the time, like I don't have But even when I say, oh,
there are three locks, I always have to add a caveat for me.
Whereas if you don't, if you want to say that, I'll listen
to your case. I'm probably gonna just if you try to make a case
against Sga, Luka or Jokic making first team all NBA, I will listen
to it. I'm very interested in that case. I would asciated. I
have my rapt attention. But if you're prepared to make that case, okay.
The fifth one, though, is interesting. We want the same way
here. Let's show you want to just put them up, yeah, and
I was actually gonna say, I think I need so it's it's Jason Tatum
for both of us. And I was wondering if I could grab the mic
really quick, because I do wonder if I've galaxy brained this too much.
I had Kawhi last time I had Kawhi. I've been writing about it for
the longest time. I think Jalen bruns In has a case here as well.
But when I look at Giannis versus Tatum, and this is the one
that I was thinking about where I feel like Giannis might have a flimsier first
team case than Tatum if you really want to wait the value to their team
as part of this, rather than skewing towards the individual stuff. Tatum is
the leading scorer, leading rebounder, the second leading assist man for what is
by Miles and Miles and Miles. The best team in the league is certainly
the best team in the Eastern Conference, and I kind of feel like maybe
I was overthinking it, over gaming it. And it certainly helps to me
that he's hitting like thirty seven plus percent of his off the dribble triples since
the All Star breaking, So that was such a key part of his game,
and it was inefficient for a little while that I had trouble wrapping my
head around it. But I'm sitting here saying I don't want to penalize guys
or necessarily reward them for the supporting cast. And I do believe the NBA
is too narrative driven. I think for all or not too narrative driven.
I think the awards are narrative driven, which I'm okay with as long as
you're willing to allow the narrative to change. It can't be. I locked
in on player X for MVP, and I'm just gonna figure out ways to
contextualize that and make him MVP all season. With all NBA it's you know
what, Okay, Tatum has a better top five supporting cast than pretty much
anyone in the league except for maybe Yokich. But look at how good Jason
Tatum still is. He's the best player on the best team. And that's
not solely my case, like I said, but you look at it and
it's this guy's a really good defender, just as like the way that the
stuff that you can do off the week side. It's not his fault that
Jalen Brown and Derek White. New Holiday exists, so he's not gonna take
these primary coverages as much. I think you can argue, is I hate
doing this, but more limited I have air quotes anyone listening is more limited
on defense because you can't put him in that role, and you probably could
with Tatum. It's just with either of the Well, with Yannis now you
might be more inclined to do so, but with Tatum you don't have to
do that. But I do. I don't necessarily regret having Kawhi for as
long as I did, and I do think Jalen Brunton has a case.
But I almost feel like the Jalen Brunton Kawhi Leonard case is stronger over Yannis
at this point than it is for Tatum. Interesting. I still I still
view Janis if we were tiering this, I still think there's a first tier
of four guys, or maybe I would probably put Jokicchen the tier by himself
and then Sga Luka. Janis are no disrespectful to Luca. I know,
apologies for the disrespect, But then I think I think there's a really strong
case that you could put Tatum, Kawhi and Brunson in a tier here together,
and like I really got no problem, Like Brunson was the guy that
I had Kawhi there too for a long time, and I still think I
think Kawhi is a better player than Jason Tatum. Like in terms of if
you're the whole, like starting a team tomorrow, who and you're trying to
win a championship, who would rather have? I think I probably take Kawhi
injury risk and all, just because I think his highest level, which he
hit for a chunk of this year, is just higher than Tatum can reach.
And I think Brunson in a lot of ways, you could definitely say
like his season has been more impressive than Tatum's just because of what he's had
to do and how productive he's been in those circumstances. This is where also
like I'll look, we both have Tatum, but I think the Celtics are
plus ten per one hundred with Tatum on the bench, which is just like
bonkers. But again that's not a knock on him, It's just a testament
to the quality of talent around him. They're still they're awesome. They're equally
awesome with him. I think ultimately, I went with Tatum because you know,
Kawhi has had an uneven season, he's hurt again, but was awesome
at the peak of it. Brunson I just don't think is quite at like
Tatum's level. I don't. Again, this is where we get into the
hazy like who's actually better. Tatum just felt like the safest pick. I
don't know. That's why I, you know, vacillated so much with it,
and and could just you could if you had a really strong argument like
tonight right now for Kawhi or like or Brunson, I could so easily be
talked into it because I think those three guys, Tatum, Brunson, and
Kawhi are like I cannot argue with you if you have one of them on
and the other two off at this point. The the other thing I'll kind
of note about Tatum, so you mentioned like, well, look at how
good they are with him off the floor, and I think that's where it
comes back to the MVP discussion more than all NBA. But do you know,
so he's played about a thousand possessions without Jaylen Brown, Derek White and
Christops Porzengis. The Celtics are plus seventeen point two. Yeah, So although
that cast the matter as part of this two of you who wanted to make
his MVP case, my differentiation just might be imperfect. We both put him
on first team, and so it's like, that's at the end of the
day, what it is. And I don't think he's undeserving. It's just
it's a matter of splitting hairs. It comes down to preferences, and I
think the bigger thing is how this stuff is interpreted, and it's just I'm
so you mentioned it with Jalen Brunton, you talked about with him, I
am more inclined to and did reward him more in the MVP debate, where
you know, if we did our MVP latters right now, there's a chance
I might have him above Giannis and put him into that fourth spot. But
I had him fifth and Tatum is on my first team like that. So
that's just the differentiation there for me. Yeah, no, it's so that
was a tough one. I really you struggled similarly with it was second team.
I had. I end up having five locks for me for second team.
Second team was the easiest team for me to build. Well, I
had four and then my fifth spot. I still don't feel great about.
I actually like and and well we should just go to it. So we
both have Kawhi. That was a no brainer. Well, so I'll unveil
the I'll unveil the top three. I think we might have the same top
four. But Kawhi, Leonard, Kevin Durant, and Jalen Brunson. Yeah,
I mean those were those were easy. I mean Kawhi and Brunson by
you know, we just spent time talking about like easily could have been first
team. Uh. We both also had Lebron and I just like the statistical
cases. They're like the eye test, like he just I don't know,
he's a second teamer. He did not give him any real serious consideration for
first team though, did you No. But I will say there are people
that are know what I'm gonna unveil my final too, because I have Anthony
Davis on second team as well, and I have seen people like reference,
not mine specifically, but how the Lakers have two All NBA players when they're
like, look how bad they're doing. There're ten games over five hundred.
That's like the West is just so brutal, and the fact that these are
megastars playing megastar basketball. That's what all NBA is about. Now, if
you want to know, say that adversely impacts their MVP case the way that
they're trailing these other teams, I'll absolutely agree with you on that. But
for all NBA purpose says, I just look at Lebron and I don't view
this. I didn't reward him in the slightest because he's old. So I
want to make that clear. Of course, this dude is. I mean,
he is old. I'm relative to other NBA players, but like he's
shooting fifty eight plus percent on twos, a career high forty one plus percent
on threes, while averaging over twenty five points and eight assists per game.
There is nobody on record has ever hit those benchmarks for an entire season.
And even if you lower the baseline to just say average twenty five points at
least eight assists, to forty percent from three and fifty five percent from two,
Lebron is still just standing alone right there. And so he was an
easy inclusion for me. And then Anthony Davis. The numbers are finally starting
to back this up. The Lakers are better defensively with Anthony Davis on the
court. Whenever I watch him play, I don't understand how they're not the
best defensive team in the league basically because of just all the things he's able
to do. I've said it before, I'll say it again. I think
in terms of the sheer amount of responsibility that he bears, only bam Ada
Bio rivals it when you're at all the different things he needs, not can
do, but needs to do on a possession by possession basis, and so
then it just made this so easy, especially like eighties, offense been really
good this year. He's starting to hit jumpers again. We'll see if that
lasts. But like the play finishing has been good, his passing is has
come up from the I mean, this might be the best passing season of
his career. Quite frankly, I haven't dug deep enough into that. Then,
just very quickly on Jalen Brunson, I don't even know, like even
independent of well is he being rewarded because like the Knicks don't have another shot
creator without Julius Randall on the lineup, and even when they have Julius Randall,
it's kind of an imperfect shot creator. Yeah, no, shit,
like that's part of it. Anyone who listened to the Knicks Film School podcast
alz On knows this that, or if you watch the Knicks broadcast that night,
because they apparently relate it, knows this that Michael Jordan is the only
other player to have a season in which he posted usage and assists rates north
of thirty with a turnover rate below ten. That is bonkers to shoulder that
usage in imperfect spacing. Looking at Brunton specifically the Knicks, they're shooting a
lot of threes now, but like defenses are still king in on you,
is what I mean when I'm talking about imperfect spacing, and just you could
say, oh, well, is he really as good as a He's not
as good as a passer as Luca or Lebron. I don't fucking care.
He's not turning the ball over and he's one of the highest suston players in
the league right now. Yeah he I just like you said, like I
forget how you phrased it, but is like, is he benefiting somehow from
the Knicks needing him to do this? Like I feel like he's being punished,
Like he's he's like succeeding despite this, despite the situation, like it's
incredible that he's done what he's done with in these circumstances, like you lose
your whole front court, you didn't have a lot of shot creation like to
begin with, you know when when all those guys were healthy. So it
just like I don't know if there was like an overcoming the circumstances award,
Like he's he wins it this year because he's been so productive and like efficient
and added layers to his game with the off dribble, three points, all
this stuff we've talked about. Yeah, like he's got he's so much like
he's way closer to making first team than slipping the third team. For me,
it's it's like, yeah, that's a great way to put it way
closer. So my my fifth guy, I did agonize over Anthony Davis.
Rudy Gobeer got it though I ultimately went with Devin Booker kind of similar arguments
as you were in a different way as you were laying out for Davis,
like he's responsible for so much defensively. Booker was tasked with being the point
guard this year. He's averaging twenty seven and seven. The seven assists or
career high like he's been up in the sixes before, you know, half
a decade ago, but those were with fairly high turnover rates, like he
was averaging when he averaged six point eight assists in eighteen nineteen, turning it
over over four times a game, almost four the next year when he averaged
six and a half assists. So this year it's seven assists and two point
six turnovers. He's cut his turnovers from last year. This is the lowest
they've been with any kind of heavy distribution role he's ever had. I know
that, Like I've slipped in and out of this, You've been really steadfast
of like the Sons that don't need a point guard, they have one.
Devin Booker is awesome at this. I've come around to that, and I
just think, I think the degree of difficulty is there for him, Like
he's shouldering a role that like is really not ultimately like what you would want
him to play in ideal circumstances, but he's doing really well at it.
I think some of the same like you're gonna put two Lakers on an All
NBA team applies to like you're gonna put two Sons on because they've had you
know, it's just the other night, you know. Obviously the down thirty
five before was just like for representing their entire offense. Good for him,
so but I still I just think, I mean, it was a d
or Devin Booker. I went with Booker eighties obviously making my third team.
We could we can go there, unless you did you think about Booker at
all, because I know, I feel like generally you've been a little higher
on Booker than me. But it's not like, you know, not way
out of whack. No, No, you disrespect him, and I give
him due credit well respecting him now. So I do have him on my
I don't know which spot I have him. I don't remember where I listed
him. I don't have these in any particular order, but I'm trying to
find him so I can just screen uh oh in your second third team spot,
for whatever that's worth. Yeah, so I have him on my third
team spot. And he was the one of the other two names that I
strongly considered for one of the second team slots, and his I don't The
only thing I would just add is what I struggled with and I will wait
this more In all MBI not so much with third team, which is why
where I put him, He's not really He's barely in the top fiftieth total
minutes played. He just qualified for the sixty five game minimum the other night.
That actor in a little bit when I was looking at him versus ad
because and even the Kawhi stuff and kd and Brunson, that's part of it.
The minutes played here, Kevin durant'z like seventh and total minutes played this
year, that's wild. Anthony Davis hasn't played this much in forever, Kauai
hasn't played this much since twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, Like, he's just
over two thousand minutes comfortably with Devin Booker, I'm fine with you putting him
on second team because of how impactful he is. Yes, the Suns are
kind of a mess in certain stretches, but like the two things that stood
out to me is so there's the raw statistics, which is I found this
wild, not because Devin Booker was involved, but because of the one of
the other names. The only other players averaging more than twenty seven points with
an assist rate above thirty Luca and Jalen Brunson. And then there are two
more aside from Booker, Booker's here that I don't think you would have guessed
because I wouldn't have guessed Yannis an Embeid. I might have gotten Embiid,
but Yiannis and Embiid and NB didn't play in a ton of games, YadA,
YadA, YadA. So I thought that was that's a great company to
be in. All those other guys are all NBA players except for Embiid because
of the games where the game's minimum. The other thing is the Suns when
he plays without Bill and Kevin Durant are plus nine point two points per one
hundred possessions. He is not the offensive problem. He's probably been part of
it at points, and Ross is imperfect like this is someone who very much,
I honestly think, even though I have Kevin Durant on second team,
I think Devin Booker is more important and draws more of Phoenix's success in so
far as you consider what they've done this any success this season. More than
so. If this was an MVP ranking, I would have Devin Booker above
Kevin Grant. Interesting, Yeah, I could, I could. I can
get behind that. I did. I did have Davis Anthony Davis obviously was
my if I were ranking, in which I'm not like he was when he
didn't make second team. He's like, I got his third team, get
his name down immediately. Oh no, he's at the bottom. So I
think that means that you've almost put him on board. I disrespected him.
We have Let's see, we have two other in common picks for the third
team. Maybe we should just put those up and focus more on the ones
that we differed on, which are so we only have two? Really?
Oh yeah, Anthony Edwards and Steph Curry are in common third teamers, So
I'll throw those up on I mean, the the Anthy Edwards one is.
And I'll over simplify this. The Minnesota Timberwolves cannot not have an all NBA
player on their roster. It can't. And things that stood out. He
has improved as a passer. He hits that all defense level both on and
away from the ball. I would say more frequently. And I think he
and Nikaile Alexander Walker and Rudy Gobert and nas Red not have covered up,
but they've almost eclipsed the fact that, Okay, Jade McDaniels might still be
your best perimeter defender. But I really don't think Jade McDaniels has been as
good let alone on offense but on defense this year as he has been in
years past. I don't know what's going on there. Anthony Edwards has helped
kind of eclipse that. The only part of his game I'd say he hasn't
improved is the off the dribble shooting still feels weird as a driver though,
the fact that he can just power through whatever type of space they have,
and the fact that he is You take Mike Conley off the floor, you
take Karl Anthony Towns off the floor, and Minnesota's offense has had weirdness.
It's still elite. During those anti Edwards minutes, Yeah, I just think,
well, I was listening to the thinking basketball podcasts were doing there,
like, you know, all different types of defensive awards, and the point
that Ben Taylor made, which I think is really like goes to what you're
saying is he doesn't always do it. But when Edwards is super engaged late
in a game on the ball, he might be the best point of attack
defender in the world. Like he just when he when he's got the switch
flipped he's just you're not going through him, You're not going around him.
Like that's it. He is. He is in front of you the whole
time. You cannot athletically like beat this guy. I think that leaves now
that's awesome and like it goes to his case. But also like you you
still sometimes maybe maybe this is just me, but do you get the sense
sometimes it like Edwards is almost like leaving money on the table by not just
channeling that one hundred percent of the time, and that goes into some of
his shot selection. That gets a little you know, blase sometimes. But
the offense, it does feel like he can bail out defenses, yes,
that you're talking about. When you look at all he's responsible for on the
offensive end, I kind of understand how you can't bring it consistently or as
consistently on defense. And we even lets use Kuhi as an example. You've
kind of well you haven't kind of you diminished his offensive creation responsibilities this year
and what happened this is probably I know what part of it is he played,
but this is the best defensive season I think Kawhi is probably had as
a Clipper. Yeah maybe so so I kind of wonder put the offense stuff.
For sure. It feels like the leaving money on the table is a
good way to phrase it, where he can bail out offenses sometimes, this
Steph inclusion it ended up so I had him. It came down to when
I was doing my third team. Uh there were three players, well there
were really there was like four or five players I considered for like the quote
unquote like final like to my final two spots. I had book and Anthony
Edwards were just stone cold locks for me. I think I had one.
Uh, well, I didn't have one of those were my These were my
three locks. No, it was Booking Ant were my locks with Steph.
I think you have to also mention and I kind of you had two of
these, So do you want to reveal your other two? Because I did
consider the other two you have. Yeah, I had Tyre's Halliburton and I
had Paul George as my last two All NBA third teamers. So I struggled
with Haliburton. He by the way, he looked like a top five MVP
ballot lock just a few months ago. But we are officially at the point
where his post injury sample is now larger than his pre injury sample and the
numbers just haven't picked up enough. But then I grap up with the fact
of, well, it's not just him trying to play through injury. He's
had to move off the ball more since the Siakam trade and also the Heel
trade impacted that does he deserve credit for it? His season long numbers are
right there, and it ultimately came down to him or Steph. That's why
I was stumbling over my words for my final spot. I look at Steph
and he now has the higher true shooting percentage. He is scoring more Haliburton
hasn't beat and assists. Haliburton is responsible for creating more of his own offense
than Steph is. But when you look at the work Steph has to go
through just to get the ball because of what that does to defense, is
that has Aliburton beat and that swayed it for me a coupled with he played
some more minutes, and I think he's been the steadier all NBA type of
talent this year. And I recognize all of that is because the factors beyond
Haliburton's control. That's also for me. I look at it as if you
put halle On here. That's totally fine, but that's also the breaks.
Like I think I'm in a position where I can make that decision and say
this because that's just how this works when we're talking about the all the all
NBA stuff. Yeah, he wasn't an easy inclusion for me. I would
say that Steph was much easier. And actually I think Paul George might have
been easier just because, like Paul George might be having one of the most
underappreciated just I mean, it's the story of his career, right, he's
the best like one B that you're ever gonna find. But like his three
point shootings up over forty percent, he's getting you twenty two and like five
and five is still awesome off the ball as a defender, just like Paul
George takes nothing. You know, if Fanthony Edwards leaves some money on the
table, Paul George takes nothing off the table. He's just he's good at
everything. Maybe he's not great at any one thing, but like he's a
B plus to a minus just across the board, and like all basketball skills,
and he was healthy enough this year, just barely. But like I
just I think Paul George is one of the fifteen best players in the league
this year. Like that doesn't feel like it needs to be a controversial statement.
No, and I did consider him, It just it felt like and
because he's not responsible for as much of the Clippers' offensive livelihood, I struggled
with that. But I struggled more so it feels like he's not where like
Lo looko quid defensively this year. I don't know that Paul George has been
on the same his usual level. And when you look at the Clippers defense
in in some it kind of supports that as well. So that's just again
it was splitting hairs. But that's why I aldly left him off. I'm
with you in the sense that we'll have honorable mentions. But he made my
fourth team. I had am on for what Halle and George or one of
the first names I put on my fourth team. I did have two names
that you did not, So I had domas a bonus on here. And
so this is another example where I feel like, if you want to say,
you think, let's just Paul George is better in a vacuum than domas
a bonus, you'd rather have Paul George for the playoffs. That's fine.
This is a regular season individual honor for me and the only other player in
NBA history. It averages many points, rebounds, and assists for an entire
season, as domont to Sibonis is Will Chamberlain. And if you're gonna put
yourself in Wild's company, company while playing the second most minutes of anyone in
the entire NBA. Yeah, I do agree with and I do. I
know some Kings fans do not agree with this, and they're pretty I don't
use the word sensitive that feels overly critical, but they take issue with it.
Is No, I don't think domas a bonus is the type of primary
option that I think is easier to shut down because he doesn't generate his own
shot in the ways that other guys can. That is absolutely, It's not
even a flaw, but it's it's a short andcoming relative to other guys.
That to me is more of an MVP thing. Though if you were like,
why isn't he top ten on your MVP ballot or something, I'm looking
at the numbers, the availability their GAGA quite frankly, and so I I
ended up he I just I looked at those he gets in that's I think
that's what I wrote too. I was like, I wrote, the will
thing is that he gets in end of story, we can move on.
Yeah, I just I've said enough things to upset people about Sabonis. I
would just the only pushback I would have is that I think you're I think
we share the perception that like, if he's your best player, you're you're
You're not You're in a little bit of trouble, like in terms of trying
to compete with other teams who have these other guys that we've listed as their
best players or second best players. The Kings. I believe this still to
be the case. I know for sure when Fox plays without Sabonis, the
Kings are good. When Sabonus plays without Fox, they get steamrolled. And
in general, I'm fairly sure that Sabonis is on court. Net rating is
negative. Now there's noise, but the sample is huge, as you mentioned,
I just I can't. It's so hard to dismiss the counting stats though,
and like what he does functionally in that offense, so I as like
on low volume like that, I would know the guards him out there.
Still, Like I I I take your point. I think it's defensible.
Like I'm not going to fight you on it. I just I just think,
like the numbers are so crazy that that like and if you do watch
the Kings, like he is the hub, like he is the guy that
makes that offense function. It's it's totally defensible. I just I think the
numbers overstate his impact on winning and maybe that's like not the most important weirdly
not the most important thing for all NBA. I don't know everybody knows where
I stand on him. Who's your who's your fifth, uh? Your fifth
third teamer here? So I went with Kalen Brown, and I think he's
kind of had not He's not underrated, but under the radar season this is
not Oh, the Lakers and Sons got to all NBA players. Of course,
the Celtics, the best team in the NBA, had had to get
it. He has. He didn't start off the season too well, but
like basically for the last sixty something games, he's been really good from three,
his counters inside the arc have never been better. The passing shortcoming is
still there. But I also think that we don't appreciate his defense enough because
it kind of gets lost and it's the Tatum stuff where it's well, there's
also Tatum and Derek White and Drew Holliday and even christopsin al Horford there.
His defense has been like he's I think, aside from Drew Holliday, he's
actually been the player on the Celtics who has spent the most total time against
the other team's top option. But what really sold it for me is that
he is more of a self sustaining offensive player than people credit him for.
And you almost I find it odd and I'm guilty of this too, that
we don't talk about that more, because when you look like one of the
Celtics weakness is on offense, is just like the playmaking hierarchy is weird.
Derek White and Jason Tatum him as your primary passers are like, that's just
a it's not a bad place to be. Look, the Celtics have the
best record in the league, but it can get awkward at points during crunch
time. But Jalen Brown with the spins and the fades, and he has
the step back, the ability to get all the way to the bucket like
at like having them mid range stuff, being able to work off the catch,
but hitting the pull up three. I just feel like his offensive arsenal
is so deep and I read, Look, the passing stuff is still it's
a concern. You could talk, you could point the things that he's done
that he's got better at. It's it's still a concern. But he's just
been really fucking good this year. And I like just the whole after again,
after Aunt and Devin Booker, this was just such a messive Conclint I
talked about I thought about Wemby a little bit. I thought about Tyres Maxie,
I've already mentioned Paul George Haliburt, and so it's just there's a mess
of names that could go here. I actually think this season, more than
last season when he made All NBA, that he's been one of the fifteen
best players in the league. Yeah, I think that's totally fair. I
definitely on my honorable mention. I initially had just like, pick a Celtic
if you want to. If it wanted to be Derek White, cool,
if it's Jalen Brown, great, porzingis I think fell short, I don't.
I think he's ineligible. Yeah, if anyone cares very quickly, So
I had these are the names that I said, I think I would have
considered if they met the eligibility. There's a big there's a big one too,
Yeah, there's and they're varying degrees. This is alphabetically Desmond Main,
Scottie Barnes, Jimmy Butler, Joel Embiid, Brandon Ingram is not there yet,
but I don't think he's coming back until Sunday, which I think means
he will miss it. But it doesn't matter. He wouldn't have made it
anyway. Kyrie, Larry Market and Donovan Mitchell is a big one. Him
and Embiid were the biggest ones to me, although I guess the way he's
played since coming back. But then Jamal Murray, Chris Stops, Karl,
Anthony Towns and Tree Young. Yeah, pretty good. You put it together
A pretty solid five out of that group, there's at least a handful.
Certainly Embiid would have been well, I mean, Embiid would have simplified this
whole thing. He would have just been a first teamer, and then we
wouldn't have had him and haw over Tatum versus Brunson versus Kawhi versus whatever.
Do you want to know what my fourth team would have been, because I
had to write about it. Yes, So it was Tyres Alberton, Paul
George, Victor webin Yama, which is just we're gonna talk about him,
so I'll move on. But he he absolutely, to me, is a
top twenty player right now. I have Tyre's Maxie in there. I don't
know if that's spicy. And then j Dubb Yeah on my fourth team.
Yeah. Did he get any consideration from you throughout this entire process? Did?
Did Jadab? Yeah? Yeah? I put together a fourth team too
because I wanted to be as cool as you, so I had I'm trying
to so I had Jaylen Brown on that. That was my pick of Celtic.
I ended up with Jalen Brown there in honorable mention. Jadab obviously is
also there. Uh wembin Yama is also there, but I had I had
Autobio and Gobert out of Bio is a good one. I just think,
like you remember when it used to be like an okay thing to say,
uh, defense is half the game. So obviously the best defensive player is
as valuable as you know, Lebron or whatever. That's not really true,
Like you can a replacement level center is is like easier to find than a
replacement level like first option shot creator. That's just the way the NBA works.
But Rudy Gobert was the best defensive player in the league this year,
and like he can be on the fourth team for me, Like there's enough
value in that that he can make my fourth team. Similar with with Autobio,
because he provides so much more offense than Gobert does in addition to like
I think I have him in the top three or four for defensive player of
the year. So I just can't get there with his offense where yeah,
you can say that he's not detrimental to the offense, but I don't see
that's the best material. I don't see enough material ways that he elevates your
offense. Sure, yeah, that's why he has to be the best defensive
player in the league to get fourth team considered. I think you viewed it
if that was your case. Where Rudy Gobert is the runaway defensive player of
the year in a season where Bam, Anthony Davis, and Victor Webbin Yama
have all just been incredible. I'm just I'm talking about big specifically, like
Jalen Sex, dark White, whoever if you were saying he's on my third
because of that, I would have been like, yeah, okay, that's
fine with me. Yeah, I couldn't go that. There's just like it's
so hard to put him in, like you're really gonna put him in there.
Over for me, it'd be like, I guess you probably Haliburton is
the guy you'd kick off if you're gonna get crazy like that, But there
might be other guys i'd consider before Gobert if I were knocking Haliburton off,
but like, you're not taking I'm not taking Steph off. I'm not taking
Anthony Davis off my third. You know, like that it got too too
tight there. This is totally unrelated to do think Haliburton makes all NBA.
I know you picked him, but do you think he I kind of feel
like he's going to just I won't call it like Shenanigans, but it's when
there's money at stake. Yeah. I feel like there's kind of an obligation
from voters who have the official votes, which is it's an uncomfortable position to
be in, but if you agree to have your vote. Although Steve and
A Smith I think has a vote and he thought Quentin Grimes was still on
the Knicks when he was talking the other night, So I think I think
he will. I'm with you. I think it's just because voters. It's
it's an interesting thought experiment now, because voters are like, you're you are
in a position of giving someone fifty million dollars or denying them fifty million dollars.
Yeah, like, don't be a dick, like just just do it.
Like I think, I think there's gonna be a lot of enough voters
that look at it that way, and there'll be some like me that'll just
say, like, yeah, I think I think he did enough in the
beginning of the year, and he's been a little better lately to where I
didn't really make my Haliburton case. I guess like he's just as a driver
of offense, like when he's when he was right, there's a reason he
was like fifth in MVP voting, like informally you know, at the time.
So like, I think I think even a diminished person player, he
never got hurt. Yeah, that's because especially because we talked about I was
lamenting I like regret not picking j dub to win Most Improved Players. I
just called him a top twenty NBA player or at least fringe there. And
it's so he went runner up of Rookie of the Year where maybe he was
top fifty to making the jump into the All NBA discussion. That doesn't count.
I just I would pick Scott my two top picks more ineligible, Scotty
Barnes and Jalen Johnson. Like Tyre's Alburn is another one where it's if he
never gets injured. If those two had remained in eligible, I might have
just gone with that version of Tyree's Albert. Yeah, that's interesting. I
mean, like he he like took himself out of Most Improved because he just
almost like he just transcended that award and was in consideration for a much bigger
one, and it's like, well he's gonna get he's gonna get MVP consideration.
We don't even think about him, and he kind of fell out of
the Most Improved discussion. I think that's right. He had a real case.
Where do you want to go to next? We want to do all
rookie next, right, Yeah, let's do all rookie. Uh. This
was I mean, this was I mean, I don't want to say it
was easy, but I think it was. It was way easier than all
NBA. I'll play that. Let's see. I don't know how much overlap
we had. Yeah, we had a fair amount overlap, So I think
we should start. We could start pretty easily with I think we had this
same three like guys on the which are just I would say inarguable in my
opinion. I guess there you could make. I'd be curious which players people
would vote against when it comes to Wemby, Brandon Miller, and Chet Holmgren.
Just I guess Miller's spot on the first team is the shakiest of the
bunch. But I don't really have a good case for going against him.
No, I don't either. I think you know there there are like capital,
They're all they're all locks to me, like Wemby and Cheddar are in
just kind of a separate tier. But but yeah, like you would have
to really blow me over, like with some kind I don't know what the
argument would need to be that Miller doesn't belong on the first team like he
just he was so much more than we thought he was gonna be. Looks
like a mid range jumper. The three point shooting held up the defense was.
I mean, Charlotte was a train wrecked efensively for most of the year,
but just in terms of like one on one force in the ball of
opponent's hands, even if he I don't call it off ball, but it's
like he knows this player is trying to get the ball, but he's able
to deny it. Where because his off ball defense can be a little spacey.
But the being involved in the direct stuff, which by the way,
comes back to the point because Chetton and leb we are right here. The
defense from this rookie class. Is it all time great? It has to
be. I mean, I I don't know what the numbers. Would you
want numbers you'd even need to figure that out, but just anecdotally, like
we're going to talk about some like we don't even got the maybe, I
mean we've we've got in my mind, chet and Wemby are the two best
defensive players in this class, but like our most impactful. But there's some
other guys that have ceilings that are way up there too, one of which
made my first team. Maybe that's a segue I had Aman Thompson here,
you want to give who are your last two? Since we we have different
too, So who are you? Yeah, I had I had Aman Thompson
and I had Brandon Pajemski Warrior shot Yeah, well get ready Dan. I
think Pajemski had some ups and downs, but played a ton. He want
to start job over a guy that the team in Klay Thompson did not want
to take the starting job away from all the all the like makes the right
play hustles. I think still leads the league in charges drawn despite like significantly
fewer minutes than than a lot of other guys on that list. There are
there are holes in his game. You know, some of the shot creation
is going to be iffy because of his size and athleticism, Finishing will always
be tough for him. But we're not talking about guys that have to have
all NBA ceilings. This is for me, you know, it's it's a
little I guess we never talked about criteria. Some of it is like how
well did you play this year? And some of it is I think implicitly,
how good is this guy gonna be? Like do we need to make
sure we put this guy on an all rookie teams? So sort of we're
on the right side of history. There's a little bit of that, but
I just think he was really productive. He contributed, He played the you
know, contributed to winning on a team that is going to be you know
what ten ish games over five hundred. So yeah, Pods is a fairly
easy inclusion for me. Thompson was harder because, like I mean that,
we'll get into some of the names on the second team here that I think
could have gone ahead of him. But the passing, the athleticism, the
defense, the rebounding, the like, what position even is this guy?
Like oh it all looks good everywhere kind of thing other than the shooting,
like he just feels like almost perfect, like next generation NBA prospect to me,
Yeah, he was just a playing time for me was tough because I
try to very much make all rookie about just this season. Which is why
because if you if I was scaling ahead, Cam Whitmore might be on the
first team about that, Yeah, if you were looking ceilings only right,
and which is but am and Thompson would be right there because he is so
good defensely already you mentioned all like the off ball stuff he's able to do
on offense now too. But I just the minutes there and I know he
has the games played and just like he's is he over fifteen hundred minutes played
now, so maybe I maybe I should be moving him up to the first
team at this point. I rounded mind out though with him and Case and
Wallace. I know Hawkes could he hit a three, and there's been some
regression on the offensive end. He is just I feel like he's similar to
Pods so balanced in how he can impact the game from all these different areas.
But I feel like offensively he might be the more versatile player right now.
He can get you some buckets in the post. He can get you
you know, he's a little He's just stronger overall. He's a different physical
profile there. He rates in the he's an above aver score at the rim,
sixtieth percent tile, seventy second percentile for mid range, fifty seven percent
tile in transition, seventy fourth percentile on post ups. And then the defense
swung it for me, just because I know Pods is going to be the
better playmaker, even though Hawk is a very good connective passer and even has
some live dribble stuff to his name, But just Hawks is defending like really
good stars. He's second on the heat also in total deflections, he ruins
all these kickouts, lobs andrew past the whole nine. And the fact that
he's taken on these higher profile assignments and it just never looks like he's over
attaxed. That that really matters to me. And so if we're talking about
ceilings, I don't know where I put him. I will say, people
talk like he's eighty years old. He's twenty three. You could still get
better. So but I thought this was an easier case to make, probably
like you know, pre All Star break. But I still think he belongs
there. Then Cason Wallace, he's a regular member for the rotation of one
of the five most threatening title contenders in the league. And the on ball
stuff is not something that stands out because Ohamas, he doesn't need it to.
I think he's shown some you know, good passing, some gnarly footwork
when he gets into traffic. He needs to be more aggressive looking for his
own shot. On drives, he can hit threes lights out from the corner
and he just defends his ass off when you look at he can guard up
like he's guarded some pretty big players. I know he's coming off the bench,
but like he's out himself, and some like they will throw him on
an island, and it's I know, it's different when you have Chet behind
you a lot of time, but it's no, we're not gonna send him
any help. It's case and Wallace like he's gonna be able to hold his
own. So just the the plug and play nature on offense plus the I
don't wanna call it defensive dominance, but like the breadth of work and the
difficulty of it. I think even looking at Okay, there are guys who
have played more minutes, he still kind of holds off the Pods ONM and
Thompson's here for me. Yeah, I wonder if I wonder if I just
got like not may ife, I got like bored with Cason Wallace because it's
like he was he was really helpful and really good and making threes and defending
from like day one, and he just did that the whole year and we
sort of like, well he was like a set it and forget it.
We like we don't need to think about him. Oh look what look what
us are Thompson did, Look what Amen Thompson did? Oh Pods took another
charge, and then Wallace just goes about his business doing all the things he
said he was doing. I did put him on my second team, so
I and I had Pods and I'm and Thompson on my I will say,
even as we're speaking, I like just want to bump off case In or
Hawks, Ram and Thompson. It's such a weird impulse to have, but
I'm trying to stick to what my feelings worked. Like, it's so easy
to fall because Cason Wallace, I think, more so than Pods, more
so than Hawk, is definitely more so than Aman Thompson by virtual availability.
He's had this steadier wire, constant rookie season, right for sure. Yeah,
That's what I'm saying, Like he was just there, you sort of
you know, I didn't really even think of him as a rookie that much.
It's like, well, they don't ask him to do that much,
but he's great at what they demand of him. And just like that's a
that's a solid NBA role player right now. He just oh yeah, right,
this is his first year in the league. You know, Honestly,
Josh Giddy has been playing well, I'm just like, nah, you get
rid of Giddy, Like this Caseon Wallace is the guy. I wonder if
I'm over compensating because I was against how much the thunder gave up and mount
to a lot of it with castways to get him to move and it's,
oh no, Sam Presty apparently knows what he's doing. Shocker a little bit.
Yeah, So we had a couple of commonalities here. We both had
Derek Lively, We both had a sar Thompson on on our second teams.
Yeah, the Derek Lively ca'se got a little bit harder after he dealt with
injuries. They traded for PJ. Washington and Daniel Gafford, which ate into
his playing time. But I still think he is one of the most fundamentally
sound rookies, which just like to say that about someone in this class is
kind of wild, and he's just he's just so he's so smart. You
look at like, this player's a very cerebral player. The way he knows
where to be or his floor awareness, Like depending on Dallas's lineups, it's
it's off the charts for me. Knows what to do in terms of connecting
or or slipping screens, but he's also positioning himself away from the ball properly
when Luka Danchison, Kyrie ever going go to work independent of those screens and
then it's okay. Yeah, he's basically a rim runner, slipper, whatever
you want to call on offense. But like he gets put backs, he
has the transition touches. He made some waves is like, oh, catching
the ball in the center of the floor and shot. I think he was
over fifty percent on hook shots and he's probably he might be done for the
season by the way I think that came out recently. I also think that
this speaks to the point of rookie defense. Him and our Star Thompson both
quite frankly, he was a really good rim protector as a rookie. Opponents
are shooting fifty eight point five percent at the hoop against him. That's a
rock solid mark. That's right in line with what Daniel Gafford's doing since he
came over to the Mavericks. So I can't say enough good things about him,
and I'll let you maybe lead it on if you have any dead and
then plus the Star Thompson case because he hasn't played in quite some time with
the blood cloud issue. Yeah, I think I think for lively what i'd
say, is Gafford being so effective in a weird sort of hurt him because
we I think if we had done this, and we probably did do this,
you know, before the All Star break, when by the way,
Lively was still I think nineteen. He's turned twenty, like two months in
the middle of February, so it seems like both he was third or fourth
probably Rookie of the Year, I think for a good chunk of it,
because like what you said, like, oh my god, this guy is
anchoring a defense. Rookies are supposed to be terrible defensively, Rookie big men
especially cannot be relied upon. He's catching all these lobs and then Gafford kind
of came in and did the same things and to some extent, like did
some of them better. But that doesn't I don't know that that's fair that
that detracts from how good Lively was, and the playing time ultimately is gonna
hurt him too. But I think he was a clear second second pick.
Asar Thompson just like again before he went out, you know, we were
talking about him like this guy's gonna be one of the best defenders in the
league for like ten years. He's gonna make all defensive teams every single season.
It's a lot of the Amen Thompson stuff, just without quite as much
offensive feel. I think would probably be the main distinction. And also,
like Asar was not set up to succeed in Detroit, like some of the
lineups they had him out there with just made his lack of shooting like a
really exploitable weakness. So like, well, nobody was set up succeed in
Detroit, So I think maybe him and Amen would have had more similar seasons
had the circumstances been different. My last guy, which by the way,
really quickly, just to reiterate your point on Star Thompson, they played the
Pistons only three hundred and fifty possessions with him and Caid and then Stewart at
the five, which is really their only kind of stretch five option unless you
count the Gallinari like stint there. And so you know about not being set
up to succeed, he still shot fifty five percent on drives and had to
sit straight north of ten on those, So I like him as a ball
mover and somebody could do that. But his offensive fit long term, again
doesn't impact this as much. It's going to be. It needs to be
optimized. The pitches could be do a better job of doing it, but
like you need, I was. I was a believer in his jumper by
the way, coming in more so than Amends at the beginning of the year.
And now it's with both these dudes, I don't know which one of
them is more likely to figure out if it's really hard, like odds are
neither probably just from the early indications, like the mechanics of the shot and
just the percentages are what they are, they're you know, it's it's it
feels like really long odds that either one becomes a three point shooter that defenses
care about, which is like, I don't know what the percentage needs to
be, but got like they are not going to be guarded as conventional wings
yea unless something drastic changes. I don't know how likely that is. But
they both prove they have legit value without a shot this year, so like,
you know, that doesn't it puts a cap on their ceilings, but
it's still like pretty high or about as high as it can be for a
non shooter. Well, I'll just give you mine. My last guy is
Trace Jackson Davis. We were talking before I struck, I didn't, like
I really wanted to just Keyante George played a huge role. I should put
him here, Jackson Davis. Some of the like the permanent stuff is unbelievable,
Like he's been starting again, like another rookie has taken over a starting
job for a guy that the Warriors do not want to bench and awesome lob
threat somehow blocks a ton of shots despite like just always looking like and really
being built like a four that's sort of undersize, Like I don't know if
he's a true center whatever that means anymore, but he really does get the
most out of like good timing, athleticism, like quick jumps, good hands,
at least defensively good hands. Yeah. I mean, he's just been
like a regular starter for a Warriors team that has been playing really well lately,
and you know, shoots a million percent from the field. I think,
you know, I if there were another guy, like if County George
had shot it better, I think I probably would have put him there.
But I think Jackson Davis, I know you had a stat about like some
of the the permanent stuff, and I think I'm fairly sure that that other
than women Yama. Jackson Davis. Now this is again not a cumulative stat,
but he's second among rookies in EPM. And while you talk a little
bit about your other Jackson Davis, I'm gonna look up estimated wins here and
see where we're at. That's more cumulative. Yeah, I mean this is
this isn't just a trace Jackson Davis stat. By the way, this is
also just a like a holy fuck, this rookie class is wild stat.
So he has it's among excuse me, so among all rookies. Like the
only people to ever match his block, assist and rebound rates are victim whom
we job by Jet Holme Grid Pretty good. Pretty good. That's a pretty
good place to be. I struggled with him because when you look at it,
just the minutes for me, I think he's nineteenth and told him and
it's played among rookies, and like that's the stuff that I struggle with there.
But you're right, the stuff that's really impressed me. Anybody doesn't do
complicated stuff on offense, but he's done some handoffs and then also just being
able to play off of either non shooters or questionable shooters in the front court
when he's a non shooter himself. Having this the floor awareness there, I
think he's important. So I don't I made fun of you before we started
for putting amy here. I might have called you a homer, but I
called myself a homer. For the record, I admitted to it. Yeah,
I would just say too, like he's by the way, he's fifth
and EPM among rookies, so not second, certainly good enough to at least
more at consideration his timing, Like sometimes the things you look for in rookies
I think have to be sort of not as quantifiable, like if you're just
like, how good is this guy at like the actual like task of playing
NBA basketball? And tjd has as a role guy from a bunch of different
angles has established specifically with Klay Thompson, like phenomenal chemistry and timing as a
roleman, and his ability to finish around defenders being left handed helps, I
think is he just kind of comes at it from angles that most guys are
just like, oh shit, he's a lefty. He went around me,
but he gets up for lobbs. He's just like quick up off the floor
around the room. Just like a lot of little things where we actually,
to be honest, it like when you watch him play, it really is
kind of baffling that he went as late as he did, Like we're talking
a guy like late fifties in the you know set deep second round, and
I just can't fathom how you would watch him as specifically just as a roleman
and not think like that's probably gonna work. So you don't think this is
gonna be like a Jordan Bell type situation. Would I would be terrified to
hear how high I was on Jordan Bell at certain points of Jordan Bell's career.
Anthony Randolph, that's another one. If you want to talk about other
Warriors guys that didn't pan out. Uh So my fifth guy on the second
team was This will come as a surprised to no one who listens to this
podcast, blow cool Bali. He's an ended a little bit earlier, but
he did enough in the sixty plus plus games that he actually did play for
me to say, you know, like, this is still the guy they
baptized Washington baptized him by fire. On the defensive end, he handled a
lot of really tough assignments and he's not even super strong yet. He will
get stronger. He didn't really look super taxed. The efficiency on offense,
you know, it's not something that is going to be it's not stand out
at any level, but he hit more of his threes. That shot looks
just a lot better in general from him, and like the three point shot,
his drives can be a little bit chaotic, but he still is able
to attack. I mentioned his three point three before. He did do a
really good job of kind of just working from the corners. I think the
other thing with him is that I was impressed just kind of as a decision
maker offensively, Like they did some stuff I mentioned tjd in the center floor.
They would screen, they would have Google Bali screen and catch the ball
on a short roller in the center of the floor, then try to dish
these passes, and I thought he did a pretty good job on that.
And so you combine that with just the type of players he went toe to
toe with on the defensive end. I was a little bit disappointed that they
didn't make him more central to the offense as the season went on, But
through the sixty three appearances, I do think that he was one of the
ten best rookies in the league. Yeah, I would say that like Brandon
Miller being you know it, turning out that like comparing him to Paul George
is a huge compliment as opposed to like a knock on why he shouldn't have
been the second pick. That's more consequential in terms of like, oh,
he's a different type of thing than we thought. But Kolibali coming in projected
to be like this guy is like the rawest raw, Like this guy does
not know like which end of the court to run down type of things you
hear just ridiculous, not specifically that, but like this guy's got so far
to go, and he was like saying saying Kulibally was polished is like a
little bit too much, but he was so much more like developed and refined
than we were led to believe coming into the season. So like, yeah,
it's not quite the same thing as Miller. But like I so I
actually made a last second correction because we're gonna talk about third teams here.
I blew it and didn't have Koolibally on my third team. I just I
kicked off Duopreath from the third team. Not to jump too far ahead,
but I have to have cool Bali on my third team. Yeah, so
we had who did you? Well, I guess, so now we have
so we have three overlaps and I'll fix your other one. So we have
three overlaps on them. If you want to talk about we've got four,
Well we don't anymore because you kicked off wreath. You don't have a reeth
on. Oh did you put wreath into the last second, I'm looking at
the dock house. Well, I guess I'll throw that out. So I
have wreath as well. I just I mean stretch big and he did a
lot of good stuff for the Portland trail Blazers. I thought he was able
to defend in space pretty well too, so I ended up putting him over.
Cam Whitmore was another guy i'd consider, but again just the minutes and
games played for me, that ended up being a not like a deal breaker,
but that is what was, you know, super tough for me.
Yeah. Yeah, I had Wreath over cool Bali, but I moved cool
Bali in for him. I did include Whitmore. I guess it's pretty clear
from from all these so far that I'm a little less concerned with the volume
of playing time than you are. I don't know that that's right or wrong,
But I think I think that's fine. Yeah, just it's specifically with
rookies. It's like what did he show and what whitmore showed is like,
I mean, I don't know what it's going to turn into. It may
take and it's gonna take a while. But just the athleticism, the transition
game, the ability to get off his threes, you know, contested off
the dribble from real deep. It just I don't know, you understand why
he was like this guy's a top four, top five talent that slips the
twenty and and so like he showed he showed enough to me to justify Like
maybe we'll see the downside maybe like the quote unquote character concerns and the knee
issues and whatever that made him slip will crop up. But based on what
we saw this season, like I get it. I understand why he was
regarded as highly as he was. So the other the other difference we had,
Oh you have well I don't want to spoil yours. Who's your who's
your fifth guy that I don't So you had you and Cam on there,
which I just get when you look at his physical tools of like the jump
shop feels like it's gonna be real even if the off the dribble stuff isn't
falling. And I respect someone who's just gonna dunk on everyone. It was
purely playing time for me very quickly. I know you did mention Kiante George
the efficiency let him struggling with it, and then part of that is on
Utah and the surrounding personnel with him. But I did feel like he got
better progressively. We're looking at his decision making kind of maintaining his dribble,
But I question is there gonna be a ton of rim pressure from him.
I think the efficiency will come around. He was second team. He was
probably first team for me at one point. Yeah, just for so long.
So it's not you know, leaving him off. It was just tough
tomnic Kamara is just the defensive beast, by the way, and he's shooting
like thirty three point seven percent from deep on okay volume, and it's that
could come up at like two or three percentage points woof. And I would
like to see him use him as more of a big man on offense sometimes
like as a screener, which when you have eight and there or dwap wreath,
is there not necessarily gonna do so? More Tonic more to Moni Kamara
at the five please, and then the other guy by the way, Gigi
Jackson. I'm we should do a twenty twenty three redraft, like because it's
interesting in this sense of where it's no longer about just the best players yet
because we only have one year sample size, so you're still kind of waiting
the long term. This guy, there's questions about his on ball dynamism.
I don't know what that's gonna end up being. But he's six' nine.
He defended everyone from a Stephen Curry or Daron Fox to a Shay Gilgess
Alexander to a Kate Cunningham. But he also defended Lebron Palo Bancaro, and
he shot thirty seven percent on his catching shoot threes. Is it just like
that's just that's what you want? Like, that's literally just that I'm interested
in. I do want to see what he looks like where if they want
to play him next to Jarreon Jackson Junior without another big or with I'm just
I want to see more of what they look like at full strength when he's
there. But he was he actually when I'm looking at this list, might
have been the toughest for me to leave off of the the second team.
And then my my final third team inclusion was Anthony Black. Just the offense
isn't there and he has hit his threes, but he's taken almost none of
them. So the defense, the floor, navigation on defense, the ability
to suffocate, he's impossible to screen. I just think he was a part.
His minutes could be a little bit all over the place, but the
Magic are a good team with immediate aspirations, and the fact that he played
at all when they have someone else in Jet Howard who spent his entire season
in the G League, and Jet Howard, in theory, fills more of
a need for Orlando than Anthony Black does. Matters to me, and so
I had him there, but it wasn't. Again. I again, Cam
Whitmore, you could have considered there. I think other names to like would
have popped up in this Excuse me as as I'm choking a little bit like
a Grady Dick Scoot Henderson. I think his job was tough. I didn't
have Trace Jackson Davis anywhere. Vasili Mitchitz could have been part of this Marcus
Sasser, so not even Ben Sheppard for what he's able to do defensively.
There are a lot of this rookie class. I feel like maybe our impressions
will change. We might look back and be like, whoa this was.
This was a fantastic rookie class. Yeah. I think your point earlier about
defensively is I can't remember the last class that went this deep, because like
rookies, it's such a it's such a trope, like rookies are you're lucky
if a rookie doesn't kill you on defense generally speaking, And like there's a
bunch of like value add guys right now that all project to get even more
impactful. So yeah, this is this is the best defensive rookie class that
I can remember. That's like a risky thing to say, because someone's gonna
wow at twenty sixteen was you know, But still, yeah, I think
a really deep rookie class too. I'm this is gonna be fascinating to do
next year, by the way, Yeah, because this next draft is supposed
to be just absolute garbage and you know it won't be h but I'll be
curious to see if it's got anything close to this one. We are on
too. Speaking of defense, we are on to all defense. So this
was I think on some level. I mean it's hard because defense is so
I think subjective, and then you're also at the mercy of your own limitations
of what you want to stand that's actually happening. Uh. We did have.
We had a bunch of overlap on these. Uh we both had I
think the easiest and the easiest inclusion of all, I would argue, unless
you think just is Rudy Gobert on the first team, Yeah, it just
has to be. He's gonna win Defensive Player of the Year, like I
would be stunning if he didn't. So he's got to be there. We
had I don't know why I listened to them out of order for us,
but we had. We had four overlaps or no, we had our first
team was the same. So round the table, Yeah, so bam Ad,
Victor Webin, Yama, Joeen Suggs. I don't know what are the
Are there any controversial picks among these? I think, go bear, let
me let me go with Wemby here, because now we've gone through we've gone
through all rookie and all NBA. The Spurs are in basically the eighty eight
percentile of defense when he's on the court. Yep, it's just and by
the way, they've also won his minutes since moving him to the five.
Basically that's another thing. But this is just someone we've talked about it fox
up your entire process by virtue of e and so yes, I do think
Bam and Anthony Davis are more dynamic because they don't have the same just ubiquitous
physical presence. But like Victor Ramayama is in the Rudy gobertire of you're just
so dominant, and yet he does can do all these like he can recover
in ways that Rudy Gobert could only imagine, even this version of Rudy Gobert,
who has been just the hit mobility that's sliding the feet. He's been
incredible this year. I don't think it should be controversial to put him,
by the way, unless I'm mistaken, the first ever rookie to make a
first team All Defense. If it happens, I mean it has to happen,
like the physical profile one like, just is it disrespectful If it doesn't,
it would be it would be disrespectful. One hundred percent the physical profile,
like he can just reach to more areas of the floor. Like that's
just I know, that's like not an interesting thing to talk about, but
like he can cover more space than anyone really ever probably and the fact that
he can move with all that length is just like that's one the numbers are
bonkers, like the block and steel numbers historically, or you know, you
have to go to like David Robinson and like all the just the Alzheimer's with
the combination of blocks and steels that he has. I think we we are
under rating, I know, because I know, like it was ugly in
the beginning of the year when he was sort of anchored to Zach Collins as
as like a and he was the four. But the set you sided where
you know, the spurs defend at like an eightieth percent of clip when he's
on the floor. So that's with personnel that's basically also terrible around him.
It's not the same thing as like, well Gobert elevates the wolves to this
level when he's on the floor. It's like, well, yeah, I
mean, Jade McDaniels is out there a lot of the time. Edwards is
out there a lot like they also play two bigs. Generally speaking, when
everyone's healthy, that helps the defense. When Benyama's out there with the Malachi
brandums of the world like trying to like hold, you know, play defense
by himself. It's insane that they're if they were if the number wasn't eight
percentile, if it was like fiftieth, I think we should still be bowled
over because like the surrounding personnel is just like in a lot of cases like
not NBA caliber. So he's you could argue that he's like, you know,
Rudy Gobert is the best defensive player on by far the best defensive team
in the league. I wonder what the Wolves defense looks like if ween Benyama
is in go Bear's place and he has those other guys around him, Like,
is it better? I don't know, Like it's possibility because his mobility,
his I just there's it's an unanswerable question, but like it's it's not
a given that Gobert that Wemby would make that defense worse if he were in
Gobart's place, is what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I mean with
that Calen it wouldn't be I don't know, you could say, wouldn't they
be better? I don't like better than what they are, right, It's
yeah, I mean, I I don't know what the argument like, I
guess you'd say, you know, he makes more mistakes because he's young,
and like he can be bullied a little more than Gobert. But like we're
picking real small knits here at this point. And look, we pick go
Berreford defensive Player of the Year because I think that that's the right Paul.
But but this might be the best way to frame Wenby's case. It says
a lot that if you're talking about the Spurs going after Trey Young or Darius
Garland, it's not oh, how is he is when going to be able
to cover up with them defensively? It's with Crayon specifically, is he too
ball dominant for the fit to work on offense and has nothing to do with
like will these new guys like mess him up as opposed to handle them being
Garland on offense? Wouldn't I don't know why I included him. No,
although this version of Garland, I don't know who he's helping on offense,
to be honest with you, but I feel like he's just didn't quite get
right after getting hit in the face for the millionth time this year. The
so among the other inclusions, I don't think any of them should be viewed
as controversial, but there is a sentiment that Bam is wildly overrated on defense
or more valuable in the postseason. I just think the amount of coverages,
the heat run out, and now the fact that they're not, you know,
switching him as much, and yet he's still dominating, and he's improved
his room Like you want the raw drop coverage, room protection, go look
at them. He's having his best season there too. For that, I
think he's having his best friend protecting season. Is there more I don't want
to There probably is, but like versatility, especially among Biggs, is there
more versatile? It might be Anthony Davis or what means weird because it's is
he versatile or is he an alien? Yes? I think I know.
I'm not listening to a whole lot of arguments that Bam doesn't belong here.
I think it's well, let's do the like which one of these doesn't belong
approach to this, like Jalen Suggs is the only guard here, I think
by virtue of the fact that he is here, we're sort of acknowledging he's
been the best defensive guard in the league this year, just all around.
I don't think. I don't think that there's some other guys in that conversation.
I think what we're what we should maybe wrestle with, And what I
wrestled with is like, does the best defensive guard deserve a spot on All
Defense first team over like the fifth best defensive big guy? You know,
because just defensive bigs matter more, they have greater responsibilities, they have more
of a chance to impact the overall defensive performance of a team. So like,
should Suggs be here over Chaed Holmgren over Jared Allen over? Like,
I don't know, I'm struggling to come up with some other ones, but
like, you know what I mean, right like that, I think if
you put Suggs here, which we both did, we're kind of saying like
he was that good at a position where the defensive value is just not as
high to warrant this inclusion. I feel okay about it, But if I
had to kick someone off, it probably would be him, just because of
the positional thing. Yeah, I just, yeah, I get what you're
saying there, but the things that he does where it's it's the breadth of
assignments. It is the pick sixes steals, it's being able to kind of
shut down someone else where. It's not just he needs to be either on
the second or third, like he will shut down the first best guy.
While also if he's not involved in the primary actions, he's going to help
out all over the place. And I've also come to view, especially when
you watch the Pelicans or even the Rockets this year, perimeter defense can be
your form of rim protection. Yeah, and it just a little bits.
Yeah, that's the out of bio argument, right, and so that's like
that's what Allen Suggs does for the magic who just so happened to have talent
elsewhere, one of them being Jonathan Isaac who's not eligible for this this award,
or to be included in one of the two All defensive teams. I
get what you're saying, though, where if you had to knock him all,
yeah, I could understand, But I look at so big men might
be responsible for more, which I guess in terms makes their role harder.
But like Chet Holmgren or even well actually Bam and AD would be like a
Wemburo Gobert. It's not hey, go defend Steph Curry like there has to
be I know Steph might get the best of you, but like there's a
value in being able to do something like that to track movement shooters or primary
ball handlers having to go through the pick and roller when teams are like trying
to screen the hell out of you and you're like the way that he can
also, it's like navigating the screens and recovery and being able to bust up
place from behind or in front of it, or going stride for stride like
mobility wise with his hip, it's even and you know you mentioned the other
candidates. What separates him from Derek White or Herb Jones. I would say
we're splitting hairs there, but it's when you look at Derek White has had
support in other instances where it feels like his role isn't as wide as Jalen
Suggs is right now, so that matters to me. And with Herb it
feels like there's more of a like Herb might be the more dominant one on
one defender and if something you need someone to kind of be at the basket
and then get out the clothes out on a shot from me on the arc.
That's something that his size and his length will allow him to do.
But if you kind of just need someone from anywhere on the floor, like
at the outer levels, I think that Jalen Suggs is going to be better
there. And it's again, it's just it's splitting hairs at that point.
Yeah, your actual point though about should this just all be I don't.
I don't know how to square that away. I don't honestly think you're wrong.
I don't. Yeah, No, that's I was just voicing like what
I was kind of agonizing over as I did. I think I think Suggs.
Suggs is flat out great at every single thing you would want a guard
to do. Defensively, He's just like a shot blocking element of it.
Everything everything on the ball, off the ball, like is how hard he
plays, Like, he's physical, like you can't back him down, Like
he's just like everything you would want a guy to do at that position,
he's excellent at. So I think we got to acknowledge that a little bit.
I'm glad we agreed on it. What happened if Danny Green and Drew
Halliday and Derek White refused into one, and you just made him like a
little meaner than all three of those guys. That's I don't know how you
do that, but yeah, So second team is really interesting though, because
you mentioned a couple that, Yeah, we have three overlaps, so I'll
throw those up on the screen right now, Yeah, which are Derek White,
Herb Jones, and Alex Caruso. And I think you know you should
pick your flavor because any any three of those guys I think you could make
a case could take sugs is spot on the first team. I think White
and Herb have stronger cases than Caruso this year, I will say that,
Yeah, I think that's probably although Caruso is just like he's such a nightmare
like on the ball and he's just so I mean, I don't know.
He might be harder to screen than Suggs, which is there. He might
be the only guy that that's true, I guess, but it just watching
him and I haven't checked the data on this in quite some time, and
he doesn't scale like positionally across the spectrum as much as a Derek White or
a Herb Jones or even a jail In Sugs and again splitting microscopicopic. Yeah,
I mean Jones's length is a real asset, like Caruso is a is
a guard and Jones is like, you're good with Jones on someone that's six
' nine. I don't know that that's true with Caruso or even really Sugs
sometimes too. But yeah, so those were easy picks for me. We
diverged on two though, And I also I love the guys you picked.
I don't. I'm uncomfortable. Now can we do that? So what we
should do? Because I think we'll make one fan base happy even though we
each didn't include the same person, but we do have two anothers Yeah,
that's right, we're gonna We're not gonna piss anybody off here. Uh.
The KCP case is just he might I think when you look at all these
guys, he might be the most underappreciated one because maybe even Aaron Gordon's and
that, like, are these the two most underappreciated names on this list?
For what they do? KCP is just like it's year in and year out,
and it's every single night when you're looking at having to defend the most
difficult assignments. And he also does need to cover up for some stuff away
from a ball, like behind certain guys, and he's one of the I
think he's still one of the better, just transition, like getting back or
knowing how to like making sure that he's matched up correctly, or just going
stride for stride with guys being able to handle where it's KCP. He kind
of looks strong, but like the type of bodies he's able to go up
against. It's it's quickness, it's physicality. It could be movement shooters,
it could be the guys that are going north south, it could be the
East west type deals up. To me, he's one of the more underappreciated
defenders in in the league. But that's just me trying to make my case
for why he's on my second team All Defense. And I mean he was
on this because we both had some changes since the last time we did this,
because I think I had Derek, why you're on first team along with
Suggs, Like KCP has been a constant for me, So maybe I'm just
married to it. No, I love KCP. You mentioned Danny Green,
like KCP really does feel like you know that a new Danny Green. Although
like Danny Green it felt like if a guy was on a breakaway and Green
was chasing him, he was gonna block the layup just like one hundred percent
of the time. KCP is not quite but like that was that might have
been like that's a singular skill at Green, but like same idea, like
he'll guard the one, he'll guard the two, He'll guard whoever. They
don't want to put Jamal Murray on. He's super quick, slithery around screens,
like he just you know, all these guys were talking about just kind
of don't really have flaws as as guard defenders. I went with Gordon OVERKCP
just because I think in isolation and maybe I'm just watching you know, all
the best moments of him. There's just not a matchup he can't stay in
front of, like the way people talk about og Anobi and I think it's
true and Anonobe is healthy, is like you kind of there's not like a
player type that Gordon is overmatched against because he has you know, true you
know, forward size, but moves his feet really well and is long and
is really smart. I just think on the ball, he's he is a
guy that I think enables Denver to do a lot of different things, because
if he gets switched on to someone that normally you'd worry about a four guarding,
you just don't worry about it because he's gonna either stay in front of
the guy, or recover and contest from behind, or block a shot.
He's just he's such a complete, you know, front court defender. So
I went with him. So but again, good job by us. Nobody
from Denver is going to be mad because we we hit both of these guys
back. They be like, oh, where yokicch on this? These sixth
in the league in deflections? Get him up there is actually true. I
think I saw that stat. Do you want to reveal your final player who
I had on my third And by the way, I didn't clarify this with
all rookie if anyone's watching, we don't actually think there's a third team.
It was just we had the third team set up for the All NBA,
so I figured it'd be thrown on screen for the third teams for all rookies
and all defense are honorable mentions. We also did fourth team for All NBA.
I wondered if these idiots think there's a third team for all rookiest we
live in a participation trophy culture, we just want to acknowledge as many people
as possible. We're going to get through our fourth through six teams in a
second. So I went with chet Holmgren largely on the theory of, like
big guys really matter defensively. He's a good shot, blocker, great feet,
like again, same thing I talked about with Gordon, Like he's not
going to necessarily stay in front of guys like Gordon will, but he's longer
and probably like longer strides, quicker, is gonna block shots from behind,
hard to beat, great help side defender. I love that he like he's
been dunked on, but like he is not shying away from just going up
and trying to be vertical and defend the rim regardless of who's coming at him.
I think he's I think he's gonna make some first teams, uh,
you know, in the next few years, just just because he's gonna provide
what you want from a conventional big guy with with with like a little i
don't know, heavier sprinkling of some of the like versatility and stuff that we
get from guys like Jones and og and and you know even Gordon. Yeah,
I I don't disagree with you. I just there's the talent around him.
And this is another case actually where I don't know why didn't frame it
like this when we were talking about the Nuggets. I have a thunder player
here too. I also have another thunder player on my third teams all reveal
him as well uh Juwa my honorable mention team, and then I have lou
Dort on my second team. Here, lou Dort still covers the toughest assignments.
He's just so incredibly difficult to move. His flaw. His flaw or
the crack in his case could technically be well he kind of lasers in because
that's his role, but do you know what, he could basically shut down
anyone yep. And he can guard so many different types of best players because
of just how strong and dirthy he is. But also while maintaining that quickness
and explosion explosion, whether he's moving laterally, when whether he's moving on his
back feet, he has been incredible. And with j Dubb, I think
if he dig into it, some people look at well his counting stats defensively
or down. The difficulty of his assignments is now harder and it feels like
he's just a much smarter defender in terms of staying in front of guys who
are attacking against him. Screen navigation has gotten better to me. But then
also just I don't even want to call the recovery so much as like the
deliberate. Well, I'm gonna slide my feet and I'm gonna give this guy
the baseline or force him baseline, or I know that I'm gonna be able
to contest his shot while being attached to his back hip or the side of
his hip. And it just feels like his IQ is not that he was
dumb last year and make that clearer, but his I Hugh was just ratcheted
up. I've been both ends of the floor. Technically, I don't think
he had Chet would have made second team over him, but just because I
haven't listed him second, I don't know that he was my toughest snub,
but he was someone who it's like, oh, the thunder just have three
all defense candidates. Well, and he didn't make either of our fictional third
teams, but SGA led the league in steals by like a lot, and
there were a lot of people saying this and was blocking shots one of the
better guard shop blockers in the league. There are gonna be people that are
upset that the Thunder don't have four guys being mentioned here, so I mentioned
him. SGA was a consideration for me I have. Let's see, I
had Dort on my third team, my fictional third team. I think that's
a real life third team who overlap of yours. I didn't put Jalen Williams
just because I feel like I've exceeded my quota of saying nice things about Jaylen
Williams on this podcast. So I'm gonna take it easy for a while.
I'll let it it's all reveal all of yours. I'll let it slide.
But the fact that you just picked two players who are eligible to be on
the board team is not real. Dan don't care, so you all Jane
McDaniels and Isaac. Both Christops and Isaac aren't eligible for the real I will
say he's one of my favorite writers. I'm not even gonna name him.
But they were picking their all defense teams for the Ringer, he wrote that
he had Jonathan Isaac and he's not ineligible, but that's a minor matter,
and I saw I was like, that's not really a minor matter. You
selected him for one of the all defensive teams that he physically were literally can't
we allowed a major matter? That's why do you disagree with the criteria.
But it's just the criteria is the criteria? Nope, that's why you That's
why you make up a third team so you can get him on there,
just like again I did. So I originally had poop emojis in the KP
and Isaac spots, but then I was like, yeah, that's the if
you put him on second team, I might have left it. Yeah,
who are your other three? So I also had I have Jane McDaniels on
there, and then I have Drew Holliday and Dylan Brooks. Which is wild
that that the Rockets were so good on defense, And is there another candidate
other than Dylan Brooks? I mean some people would say Van Vliet just because
he's such a terror on the ball and has such good hands, but like,
I mean not as han't played enough. Yeah there Tary Easton. Had
he played enough that would have gotten interesting then I mean, yeah, he
would have. He would have been been up there too. Anyea, you
got any other like honorable honorable mentions he got any fourth teamers. I have
a long list that I don't really want to go through and name, but
like Isaac Okorro was on it. I had Jared Allen on my long list
as well. I mean I have a where's the document that I have with
all that. Did you have anyone holiday? We haven't? Oh you put
Drew on there? Good? I didn't. I didn't have him on one
of mine. Trying to think anybody else we I mean like Asar Thompson,
like had he had he qualified, like that's I think he probably would have
made one of my teams just because he was so disruptive early in the year.
If he'd sustained anything close to that. Yeah, I mean Jared Junior
for most of the season, he might have had a stronger case before the
end of it. That's someone who definitely deserves like some type of a mention.
Oh like Chris Dunn, Dennis Smith Junior, more guys that I think
done probably didn't. I don't know if either of them qualified, but they're
They're not quite on the Caruso Suggs Derek White level, but they're right right
behind that. I think in terms of on ball guys. Yeah, there's
I'm trying to think of there as anyone else that I can't even find my
list that I had a Oh is this Nope, I have no idea what
it is. But yeah, there's so many different ways that you could have
got. I mean, who's that. I feel like we're forgetting someone major
that maybe should have been included, like in the I mean Giannis, if
you wanted to mention it. Yeah, yeah, the honest is someone we
should have thought about. I think we got most of them we got.
I don't. I mean, certainly like our first and second teams. I
feel like there's no one we grossly overlooked. I will say, when you
kind of look at the top defensive teams, so we had you didn't even
have a rocket on there. We only mentioned one Pelican and they are sixth
in points allowed per possession. We didn't have anyone from Cleveland make it and
the So it's interesting that so many of the like the top, I don't
think we had multi So Oklahoma City, you had multiple players, Oh no,
you didn't. We all each only had one thunder player. No we
had two. Oh that's right, we only had Yeah, they could have
four. So it's interesting how that works. I don't know if that's that
just might say more about how they're defending by committee, But I don't think
it's a coincidence. When you look at it for Houston and New Orleans specifically,
it's the teams that are kind of absent of these elite rim protectors.
Yeah, that's I mean, that makes that problem that goes back, by
the way, deserves a none will mention for all defense too. He would
be there. Would Jimmy Butler this season have gotten an HM or an HM
for you if he'd played enough games? Probably not No, in the playoff
Jimmy might uh but yeah, I don't know how I feel about that.
By the way that he's I find it very entertaining. But there's just something,
Oh, by the way, big snub here because the statistics would demand
it. Isaiah Hartenstein, Yeah, you know what that is? Who I
mean, since I have two non qualified players on my third team, I
could probably kick one of them off because he did he did meet the criteria
right, like through a weird loophole. No, well, not a loophole.
I mean he's played in seventy four games. I thought he had too
many games of like too few minutes. Oh okay, yeah, og and
he played the entire season. Oh we didn't mention. Two names that need
to stand out Nikhil Alexander Walker, who I think has a case. I
know we both had Jayden on here, like you probably make a case that
I think I'm just too far. It's cute on Jayden, but he if
you had him on your second team, I wouldn't quibble. And the other
one Draymond Yeah, I mean again didn't qualify, but like in terms of
he's not what he was, but he's still well not what he was,
still better than most. How about that Anthony Edwards, Like for the last
five minutes of games, that version of him I think would be up there
honestly. Kawhi Leonard Yeah, yeah, wow, we went all this way
with no this is the first Kawhi mentioned that might be a little bit of
an oversight. You can you talk about a defense when it came to the
you know his all NBA case for Yeah again though, like who you kicking
off from your first your first and second team for any of these, I
don't think. I don't think any of them. And I'm also so looking
at the I mean the Rockets. It's just we kind of said it at
Tarry Easton played more maybe and Thompson played more. But you said freed van
Fleet. Who would be your second nomination for the Pelicans? Does Dyson Daniels
maybe? Yeah, before his injury. That's a that's a good one.
I mean maybe, No, that's gonna skew way too. They just fell
really well as a team just from the I mean zion the past couple of
months. But what England was doing, even what c. J. McCollum
has done, Murphy, I think they the Pelicans was just the ultimate like
by committee thing. There's just they got eleven or twelve guys that can all
play like That's just that's how it goes. Time for stat padding. We're
gonna do a couple of guests of players. Grant, do you want to
go first? We'll altern eight. Yes, this is for you, Dan.
This is from Rubikscal who number one. The different format for the clues
here, so just you know, be on your toes. June two thousand
and four, Drafted by the New York Knicks. I want to guess June
two thousand and four. No, I don't want to, just I feel
like it's already gonna make me sad. Was that David Lee? It is
not David Lee. I don't know. I can't remember what year he was,
remember what year he was either. But you're in the neighborhood though.
I mean, I think, hey, he's Caucasian. I don't know.
No, no, in terms of draft year, I'm not giving you any
deliberate hints here. Clue number two February two thousand and six, traded with
Penny Hardaway to Orlando for Steve Francis. Wait So, traded with Penny Hardaway
to Orlando. So he wasn't on the Knicks then, because he was drafted
by the Knicks and he was traded. Steve Francis ended up on the Knicks,
but they didn't have Penny Hardaway at that point. Sought traded with Penny
Hardaway for Steve Francis. Okay, I got nothing, Keep going, okay.
Clue number three November two thousand and seven, traded to Lakers for Brian
Cook and Maurice Evans. Nope, got nothing, okay. Clue number four
August twenty ten, part of a four team trade involving Troy Murphy, Courtney
Lee, Darren Collison and James Posey. Nothing okay. Clue number five June
twenty twelve, traded to Washington along with a Mecca okaphor for Rishard Lewis traded
to Washington with a Mecca Oka four or Roshard of Lewis traded to Washington with
a Mecca Oka four nothing okay. July twenty fourteen, three team trade involving
Omer Ashik and Omri Caspy, among others. That's a tough one, is
this? Like I'm gonna start naming players that got traded a lot. Luke
Gridden, how Er, Drew Gooden. I don't think any of those guys
are drafted by the Knicks. It is not Luke, Gridinower or Drew Gooden.
Uh. You know the next one, sure, December twenty eighteen traded
to Washington for Kelly Ubre Junior and Austin Rivers. Oh my godsh you know
this one traded to Washington Kelly uber Junior and Austin Rivers. This is the
one. I should know. This is the one. You should know.
I'm impressive if you get it off. This one traded to Washington. No,
he was involved in It's not Courtnelly Courtney Lee. Right, he was
traded with Courtney Lee at one point, traded to Washington. Who is it
again? To Washington for Kelly Ubre Junior and Austin Rivers. I'm gonna be
so mad when I don't get this. Carry on. January twenty twenty,
traded with Wyyan Gabriel for Kent Bazemore and Anthony Tolliver. Okay, so you
roll that back. Some of these I do not remember at all. January
twenty twenty traded with Wyyan Gabriel for Kent Bazmore and Anthony Tolliver. Yeah,
I got a lot, Okay. November twenty twenty, Now we're getting multiple
trades in a year. Traded with Isaiah. Traded with Isaiah Stewart to Rockets
for Roco. That can't be the Isaiah Stewart, can't it. That doesn't
make sense. That doesn't check out anyway. He got traded to the Rockets
for Covington. But he got traded with Isaiah Stewart. Yeah, you looked
at one up. I don't know, so you might want to take me
to the next clue. All right, we'll go to the next one.
You got a couple more here, still in November twenty twenty, a three
team trade involving DeLong Wright, James Johnson, and Justin Jackson. Now March
twenty twenty one, traded to Miami for Meers Leonard April twenty two, waived
by the Lakers. Yeah, just give me it. I'm done. I
would say, hey, this is someone I'll try to help you out here.
This is someone I associate with the hardened Rockets and also the Lakers.
Trevor Reza. That is correct, huh oh four by the Knicks and then
the yeah, I don't know. I think if you're gonna get this,
you're gonna get it on some of those early ones. But that's no,
I should have known. Ubre one is the one that I should have known.
What's the so the Ubra one is he went to Washington for Oh yeah,
Ubra was geez in Austin Rivers. Who hasn't he been traded for?
H yes it is? Uh, let's see to commit's to commemorate the second
anniversary the only time he's ever been waived on April seven, twenty twenty two,
we celebrate the player who's been traded more than anyone else. Trevor Reza
didn't quite beat ridden hours five teams in six days record, but for a
brief period in November twenty twenty, he got real close. Yeah, I
forgot. He got flipped and flipped and flipped in twenty twenty. I right
one from Austin for you. Yeah, David West, no clue number one.
I was drafted in twenty ten. That can't be its own clue.
We need more specifics when these things are coming. Yeah, I'm really bad
at I need like context because I couldn't. I can't remember who was the
first pick in twenty ten. If he gave me like one pick, I
drafted in the top like eighteen or something or something like. I don't know.
Yeah, all right, I'm not getting it off that one clue too.
I am one of three players from my draft class who are still currently
playing in the NBA or NBA G League. M now we're talking three players
from the G league. Thing is this feels like a feels like a hint?
All right, I'm not going to get it off of that one clue.
Three. I've played for eight different teams, but more notably, played
for one of these teams three different times. Oh, these teams three different
times. Is this Lance Steve Do we do Lance Stevenson? Oh did we?
Yeah? We didn't. No, I got it. I nailed it.
I'm that good you did? We did this one specifically? Yeah,
because the last clues about him blowing in Lebron's ear. Oh yeah, you're
right. But maybe I don't. I thought I had got it based on
his rap career clue. I think last time. Uh wait, you got
it? What didn't? Isn't there a clue about like his rap career or
something? Players I dabbling a music career along with basketball. I thought we
did. Uh Honestly, I made a guest appearance on the Maybe I didn't
give you this one, So this is the other one. Maybe I didn't
give you all right, let's see from Austin. Well, I've played for
multiple teams. I most notably remember for my time with one team where I
was a multi time All Star and achieved All NBA status. I'm not getting
that one clue too. The team I played the most for came to a
sad end for fans when I decided I wanted to be traded to Miami,
only to end up being traded somewhere else. Is this Damian Lillard No,
I wanted to be traded in Miami, but went somewhere else. Uh A
bunch of teams, but I'm all starting an all NBA guy. I feel
like I still don't have enough information. Clu three. Like many NBA players,
I dabble in a music career along with basketball. I don't know.
Clue four. I wanted seven players to be drafted top five for my college.
More notably, one of two drafted top five for my college during my
draft class. One more time. Well, basically, he's one of two
players who were drafted inside of the top five from his college during his draft
year. So two guys went in the top five from the same as college.
He's one of them. Yep, is this uh John Wall now?
Five? Oh, go ahead? No, No, I was just talking
to myself. Clue five. It was rubored. I turned down one hundred
plus million dollar extension and eighty million dollar extension from two different teams. On
it'll wind up making less than half that amount for the remainder of my career.
Oh mmm, you'll get it on one of these three final clues.
If that's yeah, I feel like I should get it here. Neurlean's Noel
no oh, damn it. Clue six. I made a guest appearance on
the Fox TV show The Masked Singer. This is gonna shock you, Dan,
but I'm not a regular Masked Singer watcher. I think you'll get it
on this one. Clue seven, I participated in the twenty eighteen Dunk Contest
hashtag Wakonda Forever? Oh who did that? That is, in fact what
we're trying to figure out here, man, it's Oh, it's Victor Oladipot.
Correct. The last clue was I played college at Are you who who's
the other top five pick from Indiana with him? I mean, I guess
I couldn't know, not off hand. Let's see that draft. So what
years Victor Oldeople drafted? Was that way too long ago? Well? Twenty
thirteen wasn't much better. But the other one was oh Cody Zeller Wow?
Okay, do you have another one for me? Or yes? I do?
This is from from beer Rich Clue number one. I was drafted in
the lottery in two thousand and five and went on to finish fourth in Rookie
of the Year voting. I was drafted fourth overall, So you said no
in the lottery five, but was fourth and Rookie of the year. All
right, so number two. In my fourteen year career, I made the
playoffs eight times, only once making it past the first round. Okay,
Never in my fourteen year career did I eclipse a fifty percent effective field goal
percentage in a season. My career three point percentage was thirty two point nine
percent. Not shockingly, I was never an all star from the two thousand
and five draft class. In the lottery sucks, sounds like or very inefficient
shooter sucks. But played fourteen years and was fourth in Rookie of the year.
Oh yeah, wow, probably about the rookie of the year one.
All right, there yon a prototypical some would say throwback point guard. I
made a habit of showing up to training camp out of shape. In fact,
Bleacher Report once ran a piece titled blank is Tired of being called Fat?
Two thousand and five is too early for Raymond Felton. Right, it
is not too early for Raymond felt. You have correctly guessed Raymond Felton.
Okay, let's see, there are only two more clues, so you needed
to get it on that one sixth season, the Nicks signed me as a
free agent then traded me seven months later. That you might have got it
there. Took the Nuggets four months to get sick of me and trade me
to the Blazers, who subsequently traded me thirteen months later back to the Knicks.
Once hitting my thirties, I became a bench contributor for Dallas, the
Clippers, and okay, see, I still couldn't shoot for shit. I
didn't really field goal percenters was that low? By the way, I didn't
either. I needed the fat clue to get there more so than the three
point shooting clue. Let me give you one from Mike all right. Clue
one. I was drafted by the Sonics but never played for them. Okay,
I'm not getting it off of that one clue too. I made my
NBA debut with the Lakers in my rookie season after my rights were traded at
the deadline for Sam Perkins. So Perkins, so we know when this is
Perkins to the Sonics for this guy the Lakers, I don't have it.
Clu three. I was used so sparingly by LA as a rookie that in
my pro debut the last name on my jersey was misspelled oh man. That
that should do it? Okay? Sorry, next clue. After my second
season, I was traded to the Knicks for two second round picks. But
New York is not the team many associate we associate me with. Excuse me
as my only accomplishments during this time were being in a ninety six dunk contest
and requesting a trade after I couldn't crack Don Nelson's rotation. Side note,
I bet you forgot Don Nelson coached the Knicks. Okay? Do I get
points for remembering Don and coached the Knicks? Yeah, we can move on.
That counts six dunk contest? Oh Man Sonics, but never a Sonic
Lakers Nicks? Uh? Okay, next clue please. I was traded to
one of the new Canadian expansion teams in nineteen ninety six in the deadline,
and despite the team being terrible, we did beat the seventy two win Bulls
and I was matched on Michael Jordan for most of that game. Oh wow,
So Lakers Knicks either Grizzlies or Raptors and a good dunker. Oh I
did not know he was in the ninety six dunk contest If that's any consolation?
Yeah, I mean I can't even remember who was in that was Kobe
in that one? Not Kobe? No wonder, that was not a Gooby.
Guess pretty sure I remember Kobe not playing for the Knicks. You don't
think you don't remember Kobe playing in Canada? Yeah that too? Oh man,
I feel like, well, it's a Raptor a Grizzly, and odds
are it's more likely a Raptor because they would have played the Bulls more than
the Grizzly. I got nothing clue six, there's twelve clues, so okay.
My first whole season north of the border led me to finishing second and
most Improved Player voting the year after I was part of their first ever playoff
team. Hmm, well that sure feels like the Raptors ninety seven Raptors Most
Improved Sonics to Lakers to Knicks. This guy did play for the Lakers.
We established that, Yeah he did, Yes, so like Knicks. Raptors
makes me want to say Marcus Camby, But that is not a dunk contest
person or a Laker, So that's I guess I need more information. In
two thousand, I was traded straight up for Corliss Williamson aka for anyone who
cares big nasty AKA never scoreless corl Less. I was, so, what
is he going from Toronto to the Kings? Maybe I got I don't got
it Clue eight. I was part of the most controversial playoff game in NBA
history in two thousand and two. Okay, oh is Doug Christie correct?
Nice job the other clues. In two thousand and three, in a preseason
game, Rick fox elbowed me in the face, so I uppercuted the shit
out of him, leading mission the hallway wlu ten. I was traded to
Orlando in two thousand and five for Katino Mobley and Michael Bradley, but my
ankle was so messed up. I only played in twenty one games before getting
cut. I saw it with the MAVs the following season, only played seven
games before getting cut. I signed a ten day with the Clippers and played
seven more games before retiring. Since I retired, I've had my own reality
show on b et in which had showed how my wife and I ballanced family
and celebrity rife. It was canceled after one season. I was a King's
commentator before being hired by Mike Brown to be an assistant head coach is the
fine? What's the fine? Okay? Yeah, I see those. That's
how you do it because those clues, if you're not getting it on those
last couple of clues, you're really blowing it. I like that. They
got to like you're definitely getting it later, so it feels good if you
get it before those ones. You want to take us out of here,
sure, everybody. Thank you for the clue contributions or guests player contributions.
Thanks for listening. Please to grow the audience, great review, subscribe,
tell your friends, spread the word about the podcast. If you want to
join our discord to submit guests of players, the link for that is in
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some two nights. Yeah, I think it's gonna cover it. Thanks again.
Shout out as always to the one and only Frank Millikena apologies, Jared Allen