1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:06,599 You're listening to the Paranormal UK Radio Network, the best in paranormal talk radio 2 00:00:06,799 --> 00:00:13,960 in the UK and around the world. Hello world, You're listening to Eleanor 3 00:00:14,039 --> 00:00:19,879 Wagner's strange and scary world here on the Paranormal UK Radio Network, where we're 4 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:27,039 always creeping it real. I'm your host, Eleanor Wagner. Welcome all to 5 00:00:27,199 --> 00:00:31,839 my paranormal Closet, where the stories in magic take place. Today's guest is 6 00:00:31,879 --> 00:00:36,600 a former New York City death investigator with the Medical Examiner's Office, who will 7 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:41,719 open up about her more than twenty years of death steine investigations. She consulted 8 00:00:41,799 --> 00:00:47,920 on international mass fatalities, been a featured speaker at numerous national conferences, is 9 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:53,479 a published author, and taught at multiple medical institution. Her prior rowls at 10 00:00:53,479 --> 00:01:00,399 OCMEE included Medical Legal Investigator, Deputy Director of Investigations, and Director of Forensic 11 00:01:00,479 --> 00:01:07,040 Investigations, where her responsibilities included death investigations, disaster planning, victim identification, 12 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:12,359 evidence and missing persons. Join me and welcoming Barbara Butcher to today's program. 13 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,879 Welcome, Oh, thank you, Eleanor. It's a pleasure to meet you. 14 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:22,159 As I understand it, you were the second ever woman hired and the 15 00:01:22,239 --> 00:01:26,719 role of death investigator in Manhattan, and the first to last more than three 16 00:01:26,719 --> 00:01:30,760 months, last twenty three years in fact, is that correct? That's right. 17 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:38,239 I immediately knew when I walked in for the interview that these guys were 18 00:01:38,239 --> 00:01:42,400 going to have a hard time with a woman. Not the boss, not 19 00:01:42,519 --> 00:01:46,239 doctor Hirsh, but the investigators were like, what the hell is she doing 20 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:51,079 here? Well, yeah, because the only other woman hired, she ran 21 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:56,959 out of there screaming always, oh my goodness. I don't know if it 22 00:01:57,079 --> 00:01:59,959 was the work or just the guys and them giving her a hard time. 23 00:02:00,079 --> 00:02:02,640 I'm but yeah, it was very unusual for a woman to do a job 24 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:07,919 like that. Death investigation is a tough, tough game. Yeah, and 25 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:09,840 met, Well, why don't you go ahead and tell the listeners a little 26 00:02:09,879 --> 00:02:15,759 about yourself, your beginning and the back history up to that point. Sure, 27 00:02:15,879 --> 00:02:20,800 I was a physician assistant working in surgery and preventive medicine and then hospital 28 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:27,719 administration. And I was bored board board board. So I was also a 29 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,520 drinker, A little bit of an alcoholic there, well, a lot of 30 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:37,520 an alcoholic. Okay, So this begins the story of how I came to 31 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:43,680 be a death investigator as an alcoholic. I finally got sober, and when 32 00:02:43,759 --> 00:02:47,919 you get sober, you get services from the state, including the employment program 33 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:54,520 for recovering alcoholics. And I went to this program and then they were going 34 00:02:54,560 --> 00:03:02,000 to teach me how to be a worker among workers, how she had to 35 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:07,240 work and have pride and humility and all these things. And so they gave 36 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:15,159 me a whole bunch of tests Minnesota multiphasic, multi personality, preferential, etcetera, 37 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:17,759 etcetera, Briggs Myers, things like that. And at the end of 38 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:22,800 the test, my counselor said to me, Barbara, you should either be 39 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:29,719 a poultry veterinarian or a coroner a death investigator. I said, poultry. 40 00:03:29,759 --> 00:03:35,000 Why poultry? He said, you know you're you're good at diagnostics, but 41 00:03:35,039 --> 00:03:38,120 you always got upset when your patients died and or they didn't get better, 42 00:03:38,159 --> 00:03:43,080 and so if you were with puppies and kittens, it would break your heart. 43 00:03:43,439 --> 00:03:46,800 But chickens, said, they have beaty little eyes, nobody gets attached 44 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,199 to them. So I think you should work with chickens. I said, 45 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:54,520 no, I think I should work with people. That's funny. Yeah, 46 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:59,800 In one of the assignments he gave me was to find the person in New 47 00:03:59,879 --> 00:04:01,800 York, York City what had the best job in the world, and asked 48 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:08,520 them for an informational interview. And I did. I called Charles Hirsch, 49 00:04:08,599 --> 00:04:12,159 the chief Medical Examiner of New York, and I went in to talk to 50 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,840 him, and I spent all the afternoon there and they offered me a job 51 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,720 as a death investigator. Wow, now this was like right up my alley. 52 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:24,800 This was perfect. Do you remember that first case, that first one? 53 00:04:25,199 --> 00:04:29,600 Oh yeah, I remember my first homicide very well because I asked the 54 00:04:30,319 --> 00:04:33,160 detectives that they'd take a picture with me all lined up, you know. 55 00:04:33,199 --> 00:04:38,079 It was a little so I could make a little card my first homicide, 56 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,800 and they did so. Somebody stole the damn picture, though, which is 57 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:46,199 too all. What a shame. Yeah, yeah, we had a lot 58 00:04:46,199 --> 00:04:53,399 of fun. I'd like to say that alcoholism and the misfortune of alcoholism actually 59 00:04:53,399 --> 00:04:58,800 wound up getting me my dream job. It was absolutely fantastic. As a 60 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,879 little kid, I got a dissecting kit. I liked science a lot, 61 00:05:02,439 --> 00:05:06,759 and kids in the neighborhood used to bring me roadkill. Oh my goodness. 62 00:05:08,199 --> 00:05:12,240 I would dissect it and then I would say things like, oh, you 63 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,399 see the little black lines, the little zigzag lines along his back, how 64 00:05:15,399 --> 00:05:19,160 they all run into track. That's a tire mark. He was run over, 65 00:05:19,759 --> 00:05:26,199 and this possum had his little ribcage crushed, and this is cause of 66 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:31,600 death. So from childhood I was ready for this job. Wow, that's 67 00:05:31,639 --> 00:05:35,920 incredible. Yeah, that was the best job I ever had, so exciting. 68 00:05:38,079 --> 00:05:41,839 How many death scenes would you say you covered in your career. I've 69 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:50,319 been to five five hundred death scenes and six hundred and eighty homicides investigated. 70 00:05:50,519 --> 00:05:57,000 Yeah. Wow, that's a lot. Yeah. Yeah, and New York 71 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:01,279 City has some of the greatest variety in deaths and homicides, I mean, 72 00:06:01,399 --> 00:06:06,600 really exciting stuff. So I had a pretty good time, except it was 73 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:14,519 soul crushing it. Yeah, in time, you know, the tragedy, 74 00:06:15,319 --> 00:06:21,360 the constant exposure to horror kind of it kind of messed me up. Yeah, 75 00:06:21,439 --> 00:06:25,639 I'll bet Oh my goodness. Yeah, as you could see from my 76 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:30,240 book What the Dead. No. I wrote that book to get it all 77 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:34,879 out there, the stories of the strange cases I saw and the effect that 78 00:06:34,879 --> 00:06:39,800 that kind of work has on human beings. Cop. Yeah, I was 79 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:45,040 just going to say I imagine it's the same for police officers and eating firefighters. 80 00:06:45,399 --> 00:06:48,920 Absolutely. Yeah. What is the difference between a death investigator and a 81 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:57,079 crime scene investigator? A crime scene investigator is responsible for the forensic evidence found 82 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:02,800 at the scene, things like fingerprints, blood spatter of a carpet, fibers, 83 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:09,680 things like that, whereas the death investigator from the Medical Examiner's office is 84 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:15,920 required to do a separate investigation into the cause and manner of death. So 85 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:21,639 the body belongs to us and the scene belongs to the police. But of 86 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:30,160 course it would be silly to work completely separately. We work together. I 87 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:35,000 explore the scene, look for drugs, suicide notes, medications, anything that 88 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:40,759 would help me get evidence on the death. And then the body I would 89 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:48,480 examine it and do photographs, measurements in order to do an autopsy. When 90 00:07:48,519 --> 00:07:53,079 you do an autopsy, you get a cause of death. So like a 91 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:57,079 gunshot wound, for instance, that's pretty plain and simple. Gunshot wound to 92 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:01,199 the head cause of death. But what is the manner of death? Is 93 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:07,519 it a homicide, suicide, or ancient So that's what I was responsible for, 94 00:08:07,639 --> 00:08:11,639 is finding out that manner of death, the context in which the death 95 00:08:11,639 --> 00:08:16,040 occurred. Interesting Now, you mentioned at one point that you avoided a booby 96 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:22,439 trapped suicide. What was with that? Oh? Yeah, yeah. In 97 00:08:22,439 --> 00:08:26,199 the first chapter of the book, I described one of my favorite cases. 98 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:31,680 I was called one night and for a standard suicide, a dead man found 99 00:08:31,759 --> 00:08:35,840 hanging in his apartment. But when I got there, the place was pitch 100 00:08:35,919 --> 00:08:39,320 black, and the young cop standing at the door told me, oh, 101 00:08:39,399 --> 00:08:43,279 his electricity has been shut off. He said, it's kind of spooky in 102 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,559 there is a guy just hanging in the dark. And I went into the 103 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:52,519 apartment. It was very very dingy, very old, and it was it 104 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:54,559 was late at night, and it was pitch black in there. But I 105 00:08:54,679 --> 00:09:01,519 used his flashlight and I my little flashlight, and I was able to see 106 00:09:01,519 --> 00:09:05,679 the guy, and sure enough he was hanging. I didn't find any suicide 107 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:13,159 notes anything like that in the room. But that night I was bitching and 108 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:18,320 moting because I had my left hand in a cast. I had been fooling 109 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,000 around with some saws and some wood trying to build something and accidentally cut a 110 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,279 tendon in my hand. Ooh nice. So I had just had surgery and 111 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:31,279 my arm was in a cast. So I was bitching because I had to 112 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:35,600 work I was at a thick time, So as I examined the guy, 113 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:39,440 I used my right hand hold a flashlight, check under his eyelids, you 114 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,759 know, look for hemorrhages. Mainly, what I wanted to make sure is 115 00:09:43,799 --> 00:09:50,000 that he actually hanged himself and that this wasn't a murder set up to look 116 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:54,799 like a suicide. And it was all pretty clear. So back in those 117 00:09:54,879 --> 00:09:58,080 days, you know, we used polaroid cameras. This was a long time 118 00:09:58,159 --> 00:10:01,279 ago, in nineteen ninety two, and so with the flash I was, 119 00:10:01,399 --> 00:10:07,559 you know, taking pictures and documenting everything so that I could give a report 120 00:10:07,799 --> 00:10:13,000 to the medical examiner the next day. The guy doing the autopsy, and 121 00:10:13,159 --> 00:10:16,000 before I left, normally I just I took out my buck knife and I 122 00:10:16,039 --> 00:10:20,600 was going to cut him down. So I would hold the ligature with my 123 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:26,279 left hand and cut above it with the right. But I couldn't do it 124 00:10:26,519 --> 00:10:30,000 because my arm was in a cast. My gosh, thank goodness, thank 125 00:10:30,039 --> 00:10:33,759 goodness. Because I left, I said, all right, look like a 126 00:10:33,759 --> 00:10:39,360 suicide. When I got back to the office, I was preparing my report 127 00:10:39,399 --> 00:10:43,720 and I was looking at the photos, and I saw that the ligature he 128 00:10:43,879 --> 00:10:48,240 used was not the usual rope. It was an extension cord, one of 129 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:52,960 those orange on the EAPs outdoors. I thought, oh, that's interesting. 130 00:10:52,799 --> 00:10:58,720 The next photo I saw that the extension cord was actually plugged into the wall. 131 00:11:00,279 --> 00:11:03,320 Wow, I said, wait a minute, this doesn't make sense. 132 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:07,159 Why is this plugged in, especially since he didn't have any electricity was turned 133 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:11,000 off. Then it came to me and I called the cop back at the 134 00:11:11,039 --> 00:11:16,399 scene. I said, go screw in the light bulbs in the lamps. 135 00:11:16,039 --> 00:11:18,279 He said, what I said, just do it, Just check this. 136 00:11:20,639 --> 00:11:24,840 He came back and he said, this light this electric. What this guy 137 00:11:24,919 --> 00:11:31,039 had done was unscrewed the light bulbs to make it look like his electricity was 138 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,600 shut off. Then when he hanged himself, he plugged the extension cord into 139 00:11:35,639 --> 00:11:43,600 the wall so that whoever cut him down would be electrocuted. Wow. But 140 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:50,639 because, oh my goodness, because my arm was in a cast, I 141 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:56,679 didn't cut him down as usual, and I avoided either being killed or badly 142 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:58,919 injured. But you know, I told the kind of state to somebody else. 143 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,120 I yeah, you say, somebody else's life too, that would have 144 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:09,120 an after you. Oh my goodness. Yeah, So horrible person could you 145 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,879 be to do? To be so cowardly to do that to yourself, but 146 00:12:11,919 --> 00:12:16,480 then to want to take somebody else. There's a thing I call the angry 147 00:12:16,519 --> 00:12:20,919 suicide. How many times have we seen like a kid go with a with 148 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:26,080 an automatic rifle into a school and shoot children and then shoot themselves, And 149 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:30,879 to say, the hell did they do that for? Why didn't they just 150 00:12:31,039 --> 00:12:35,799 kill themselves get it over with. Well, because some people in their depression, 151 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:41,480 they're so damned angry at the world, but the world for not helping 152 00:12:41,519 --> 00:12:45,120 them. I don't know why. And this was one of those people, 153 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:50,360 just an angry, angry man who wanted to take somebody out with them. 154 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:54,879 Maybe he wanted to be famous, you know. Could you imagine about a 155 00:12:54,879 --> 00:13:01,440 great newspaper story that would make Yeah and all medical examiners office employee killed by 156 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,080 booby traps suicide. Well, look, he is famous. He's in my 157 00:13:05,159 --> 00:13:11,360 book now, right, So I guess I guess that. Oh my goodness, 158 00:13:11,399 --> 00:13:18,000 And now we will just we just came away from our memorial of nine 159 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,000 to eleven and I noticed that you involved, if even identifications, that must 160 00:13:22,039 --> 00:13:28,679 have been so difficult. Yeah, nine to eleven ruined everything, it really 161 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:35,879 did. It ruined our sense of safety. Our sense of just security as 162 00:13:35,919 --> 00:13:39,039 Americans. We always felt like we were strong and secure and nobody could get 163 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:46,240 us. And now right in our own city we get attacked, and it 164 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,200 was so devastating. There's an old saying that one death is a tragedy and 165 00:13:50,279 --> 00:13:56,960 a thousand deaths is a statistic. But when you're crawling through the burning rubble 166 00:13:58,159 --> 00:14:05,200 and the smoke to pick up little pieces people's bodies, and you see a 167 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:11,399 calendar that says lunch with Steve one o'clock Tuesday, or the graduation picture of 168 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:16,200 a kid from from sixth grade, the things that are on a person's desk, 169 00:14:16,519 --> 00:14:22,360 the papers, the little god there was a desk set that had a 170 00:14:22,399 --> 00:14:26,679 golf ball in it, like from a hole in one, you know, 171 00:14:26,799 --> 00:14:31,960 the hen and the little little black hole in one. That kind of stuff 172 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:41,799 that tells you this is not a statistics are individual lives, and each one 173 00:14:41,879 --> 00:14:46,240 of them is a little universe. It's a person with a family and friends 174 00:14:46,279 --> 00:14:52,120 and gone. And that is so horrifying and so scary, and they're well, 175 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,200 I remember where I was in that moment, and it touched so many 176 00:14:56,200 --> 00:15:01,519 people's lives that I'm in the school district, that's where I work as my 177 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,840 regular job, and they didn't mention anything about it, And I just don't 178 00:15:05,879 --> 00:15:09,159 understand. This should be something that is brought to the attention of every person 179 00:15:09,399 --> 00:15:15,320 in the United States every single year at this time. Yeah, it should 180 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:20,080 not be forgotten and a tragedy that they don't mention it in the school districts 181 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:24,399 or talk about it anymore, and it should be something that is spoken about 182 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,559 every single year at this time. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's one of 183 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:33,399 the blackest days of our nation's history, one of the darkest days we've ever 184 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,799 had. And there are lessons in there that we need to learn about our 185 00:15:37,799 --> 00:15:41,200 police in the world. Absolutely, it's something that is part of the history 186 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:46,360 that should be talked about. Yep. Yeah, but hey that it's not 187 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:52,679 well we are we're talking about it. Oh, that's right. Yeah. 188 00:15:52,799 --> 00:15:56,679 Then there was the two thousand and four tsunami. How does that work? 189 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:00,639 You know, I know there's so much devastation. How does that even happen? 190 00:16:02,759 --> 00:16:07,639 Well, that earthquake, it was just after Christmas two thousand and four. 191 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,879 It was a huge earthquake out in the Indian Ocean and it sent to 192 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:17,639 a tsunami, a tidal wave spreading in all directions through Indonesia, Thailand and 193 00:16:17,759 --> 00:16:23,200 all the East Asian islands and killed two hundred and thirty eight thousand people. 194 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:30,399 Isn't that something? Imagine two hundred thirty eight thousand. So what most nations 195 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:36,360 did, out of necessity was just bury the people in trenches mass graves, 196 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:41,360 because you couldn't leave them out in the heat. Of course, unhealthy and 197 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:45,639 disgusting, but so that's what most people were doing. But then in Thailand 198 00:16:45,679 --> 00:16:49,799 there was a little problem, and that is that there were I think eight 199 00:16:49,879 --> 00:16:56,799 hundred and forty European tourists who were in Thailand on vacation when the tsunami hit, 200 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:06,519 and their countries wanted their bodies back. So the Thai government, they 201 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:11,160 know that tourism is very very important to their economy, and they had no 202 00:17:11,319 --> 00:17:18,400 choice but to try to identify of the more than five thousand bodies recovered in 203 00:17:18,519 --> 00:17:23,720 Thailand, which were all rotted, horribly rotted in the heat. How could 204 00:17:23,799 --> 00:17:29,960 you pick out eight hundred and forty European tourists. Well, they asked for 205 00:17:30,039 --> 00:17:37,920 help, So the United Nations Health Division Health Branch asked me and my boss 206 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:41,279 to go over there and see if we could help out and we did. 207 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:49,640 We went to Thailand and we brought DNA technologists and doctors and identification specialists to 208 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:55,400 help them, and they managed to do it. It took a land, 209 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:02,519 yeah, So the Europeans sent help and came over to help, and using 210 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:07,279 DNA and dental records and things like that, we were able to identify all 211 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:12,079 of the tourists and return them to their homes. And a great number of 212 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:17,839 the Thai people too, who were who were you know in these mass graves. 213 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:22,839 We were able to identify some of them. But what I learned over 214 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:27,799 there is that the attitude is everything right, and the Thai people have such 215 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:37,400 an amazing attitude of acceptance of reality and just keep on moving no matter how 216 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,559 bad things get. I guess it's a Buddhist thing. But they were so 217 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:47,480 kind, so gentle, and so willing to just keep working, even though 218 00:18:47,519 --> 00:18:52,160 their homes had been destroyed, they lost family members. They knew that they 219 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,839 had to help their country, they had to keep working, and they did, 220 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:02,400 and they were very fund prosecuted to do that. I think the first 221 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,200 time I went, I was there two three weeks, and then I went 222 00:19:06,279 --> 00:19:11,160 back a little later to work on some more things for another week or two 223 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,519 weeks. Yeah, so we know how long did it take for them to 224 00:19:15,599 --> 00:19:19,119 identify everybody? Well over a year, yeah, yeah, well over a 225 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:25,119 year between between DNA and dental records, you know, getting all that information 226 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:29,400 from different countries in Europe. So it know, it all worked out. 227 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:33,240 But I have enormous respect for the people of Thailand who put aside their personal 228 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:41,359 tragedies to do something for their country, to help just wonderful, wonderful people. 229 00:19:41,079 --> 00:19:44,799 And we had a good time. I mean, even in the middle 230 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:49,079 of all that destruction and death, we still had lovely dinners or we'd allay 231 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:56,079 I'm smart friend. Yeah. Effort of bringing those people home, Yeah, 232 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:00,920 it was was a wonderful, wonderful experience to learn some much from them. 233 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,839 We were supposed to be helping them, but I think they taught us a 234 00:20:03,839 --> 00:20:08,039 lot too. Oh that's interesting. Wow. Well, and then there's the 235 00:20:08,279 --> 00:20:12,920 crash of flight five eighty seven. I imagine that was very similar to you 236 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:18,039 going through the nine to eleven because the circumstances are very similar in that there's 237 00:20:18,079 --> 00:20:22,200 an explosion, right, it would have been very similar to how you were 238 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:29,480 scraping people's pieces of body parts together, right, Yeah, I mean that 239 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,920 was you know, that happened right after nine to eleven. It happened in 240 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,039 November, so it was less than two months after the nine to eleven attack, 241 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:41,359 and we were so frightened that it was another terrorist attack. But no, 242 00:20:41,559 --> 00:20:45,759 it was an accident. And well, yeah, what did it turn 243 00:20:45,799 --> 00:20:48,359 out to be the cause of the ground some kind of error in the tail 244 00:20:48,559 --> 00:20:56,000 mechanism or like a pilot over correcting for a tail mechanism error. I don't 245 00:20:56,039 --> 00:21:00,519 remember the whole details. I just remember all those burned bodies, two hundred 246 00:21:00,559 --> 00:21:06,240 and fifty something people. One of them was a mother and a baby. 247 00:21:06,519 --> 00:21:10,200 She had been holding her baby, and god, that still sticks in my 248 00:21:10,279 --> 00:21:15,680 head. Oh well that yeah, so damn hard. But we had a 249 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,400 flight manifest so we knew people's names. We just had to make sure we 250 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:25,720 identified which body was which person because they were also badly burned. And we 251 00:21:26,079 --> 00:21:30,880 did manage to do that using DNA and dental records and things from their families. 252 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:37,640 But that's another It's a funny thing. As my job went on for 253 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:42,759 a period of about nine ten years, I was getting more and more horrified, 254 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:48,000 more and more depressed and frightened about all the murders and things I was 255 00:21:48,039 --> 00:21:53,880 seeing. So come nine to eleven, the universe smacked me in the head. 256 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,480 We both reclouts and deaths. Then two hundred and fifty deaths. Then 257 00:21:59,559 --> 00:22:03,599 there was a train wreck. Then I went to London for the the underground 258 00:22:03,599 --> 00:22:10,519 bombing. There it just became masdf jeeesh one right after the other. Yeah, 259 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:12,920 and then you know, my colleagues. I just had lunch with some 260 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:18,519 of my friends from the Medical Examiner's Office and we were talking about COVID. 261 00:22:18,039 --> 00:22:25,440 In New York City, the epicenter of the epidemic. We had fifteen thousand 262 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:32,720 dead people that had to be picked up, identified, wrapped, sealed, 263 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:38,559 and stored because, if you recall, there were no funerals. Nobody could 264 00:22:38,559 --> 00:22:42,640 dig grapes, nobody could get to work. It was too dangerous. So 265 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:51,759 my friends at the New York City Medical Examiner's Office stored fifteen thousand bodies in 266 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:56,400 huge refrigerated tents and they had to go in and pick up those bodies from 267 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:03,400 people's homes, and it just it was the most god awful thing. It's 268 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:08,000 the kind of job that's why I call it soul crushing. My job was 269 00:23:08,039 --> 00:23:15,160 so exciting, so fun, so interesting but also soul crushing. Yeah. 270 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,240 I was just asking, is there any case in particular that stands out that 271 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,640 most of you but each one that we've already discussed seems to be yeah, 272 00:23:23,079 --> 00:23:30,039 out bad. I think there was one case of a serial killer, guy 273 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:36,759 named Aaron Key, and he on a ten year period was raping and killing 274 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,920 little girls, little adolescents, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen year olds, a 275 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,359 thirteen year old, and for ten years he was getting away with it, 276 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:52,640 and they knew that it was one person because all the DNA matched from each 277 00:23:52,759 --> 00:23:59,480 victim, but they didn't know who that DNA belonged to because he wasn't in 278 00:23:59,559 --> 00:24:03,960 the national data banks. See yeah, yeah, yeah, how so he 279 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:07,880 because he had never been arrested. And that bothered the hell out of me, 280 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,960 the fact that for so many years this guy could get away with it, 281 00:24:11,759 --> 00:24:18,119 but finally he got caught. Police played a little trick on him. 282 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,839 He was a suspect, and they brought him in for questioning and gave him 283 00:24:22,839 --> 00:24:26,480 a cup of water and then they were able to get DNA off the cup 284 00:24:26,559 --> 00:24:33,519 after he throw it away, And I did my part to convict him. 285 00:24:33,599 --> 00:24:37,599 Testifying in court one of the cases that I had done was a little a 286 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:45,160 little girl, just a sweet, nice young girl, and it bothered me 287 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,960 a lot, a real lot. So I was so pleased to help put 288 00:24:49,039 --> 00:24:53,440 him away. Now, so that stands out in my mind. I know 289 00:24:53,519 --> 00:25:00,359 that you're also interested in paranormal things, right, oh, I answered that 290 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:06,240 we had the similarity in that you were led to that and I was led 291 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:11,920 to the paranormal. So we Yeah, how were you led to the paranormal? 292 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:15,119 Well, as a child, I lived in a home that was haunted, 293 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:21,119 and I of course was afraid of what I saw, and I really 294 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,480 didn't have parents that understood it, so, you know, Mom would always 295 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,480 say it was just a dream, it was just a dream. And as 296 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,240 I got older, I also had premonitions when I was a kid too, 297 00:25:29,279 --> 00:25:30,920 which was something very different that came to me in dreams, and Mom would 298 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:36,640 always say it was just a dream. And then one day a terrifying nightmare 299 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,599 that I had ended up coming true and it kind of like shut things down 300 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,640 for me. I just I felt like responsible bird, even though I was 301 00:25:44,759 --> 00:25:49,799 twelve, and that's not a realistic thing for me to blame myself for that, 302 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,480 but I felt responsible. I knew it was going to happen, and 303 00:25:52,759 --> 00:25:56,519 my mom said it was a nightmare, and it did, and I did 304 00:25:56,519 --> 00:25:59,279 nothing to stop it. Mom. You know, I didn't do anything to 305 00:25:59,279 --> 00:26:00,480 stop it. All was just a dream. It was just dreaming. No, 306 00:26:00,519 --> 00:26:06,319 it wasn't again true. So I kind of shut down for a long 307 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,960 time. But I still kept paranormal in my life in other ways. And 308 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,559 I've been a writer since the seventh grade. In fact, my most recent 309 00:26:14,599 --> 00:26:18,039 book I dedicated to my seventh grade teacher, because you reconnected, and I 310 00:26:18,079 --> 00:26:22,480 was just thrilled to be able to dedicate it to her, and she was 311 00:26:22,519 --> 00:26:30,079 tickling to receive the dedication. But I always was into writing stories that were 312 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:34,279 psychological thrillers, and that somewhere along the line, I was in a writer's 313 00:26:34,319 --> 00:26:40,680 group and it came to me to write true life ghost stories from my experience, 314 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:42,240 and I said, well, let me put it out on social media 315 00:26:42,279 --> 00:26:47,279 and see if anybody out there wants to share their experience and it might end 316 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,200 up in my book. And before I knew it, that part of my 317 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,839 writing took off. Even though I went to school to write for children, 318 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,039 and even though I wanted to write psychological thrillers, I wrote two of those 319 00:26:56,279 --> 00:27:00,839 and now I was dedicating myself to writing true account ghost stories for other people, 320 00:27:02,079 --> 00:27:07,480 and people just love to read true account ghost stories. Though at fifty 321 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,720 I wrote my first book, and here it was a new career because I 322 00:27:11,799 --> 00:27:15,119 was writing true account ghost stories. I had a power normal team, and 323 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,880 now I have paranormal podcasts. So I was led to do this, and 324 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:26,359 yeah, I've stuck with it ever since. It's wonderful. You know. 325 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,599 People always asked me, they said, isn't the Morgue full of ghosts? 326 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,359 And I tell them known because that people didn't die there. They died somewhere 327 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,960 else. We just pick them up and bring them here. So their spirits, 328 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:44,440 if they're haunting, they're staying in the place of death. But I 329 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,839 when I was a kid, my great grandmother's house, we used to go 330 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,920 there to visit with my mom, and we'd go up the backstairs and on 331 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,319 the landing of the stairs, it was a cold spot. It was very, 332 00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:03,880 very cold, and it made your stomach get queasy like that. Yeah, 333 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,319 and when we were little kids, we knew there was something creepy. 334 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:11,319 We'd run through that area real quickly. And my mom, when she was 335 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,759 a little girl, she used to sleep up there and she asked my grandmother. 336 00:28:14,839 --> 00:28:18,319 She said, you know, I always hear this couple fighting like it 337 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,799 sounds like it's a long way away. I hear a woman crying and a 338 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:26,519 man hollering and they're fighting. What is that? And she said nothing, 339 00:28:26,599 --> 00:28:30,759 Dolly. They said nothing, nothing there, no problem, don't worry. 340 00:28:33,599 --> 00:28:38,680 Well. Then when my mom got older, she asked my great grandmother again 341 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,240 and she told her the true story, which was that my great uncle al 342 00:28:45,039 --> 00:28:48,599 was very jealous of his wife. He was afraid that she was seeing another 343 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,519 man. And they were up on that stair landing arguing and fighting, and 344 00:28:52,799 --> 00:29:00,160 he shot himself died, and they couldn't find her. They found his and 345 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,799 they couldn't find her anywhere, and they figured, oh, it was true, 346 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:10,279 she ran off with another man. Now they had three little children, 347 00:29:10,559 --> 00:29:14,359 and one of them died immediately. They said the baby died of a broken 348 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,160 heart. The other two were put in orphanages. Oh, come sad. 349 00:29:19,039 --> 00:29:22,920 But then on the day of my great uncle funeral, which was held in 350 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:29,160 the parlor on the ground floor, somebody went upstairs to get something and they 351 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,920 found his wife's there. She too was dead, but he had shot her 352 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:40,599 first, stuffed her body behind a stove, behind a heating stove, and 353 00:29:40,759 --> 00:29:44,359 then shot himself on that land. Asked that there were two deaths there. 354 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,200 She So what you guys were experiencing is what you call residual haunting. It 355 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,839 was, yes, then it was happening continuously, over and over again. 356 00:29:52,200 --> 00:30:00,519 Yeah, that's so interesting. Yeah. So I absolutely believe in haunt and 357 00:30:00,799 --> 00:30:03,759 in Poulter Guide and whatever they whatever you call them, I don't know the 358 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:08,240 terminology. But you don't have anything going on where you live now. No. 359 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,279 I live in a modern high rise building, brand new, on the 360 00:30:12,279 --> 00:30:18,000 fifty eighth floor, way up in the sky. So the only thing we 361 00:30:18,079 --> 00:30:22,440 have up here are birds because what you do, oh you do. No 362 00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:27,720 apartments can be haunted to individual apartments. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that 363 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:32,960 New York is very very active from what I understand. I haven't done anything 364 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,880 personally there, but from in the field and speaking to people, New York 365 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:44,319 is extremely active. I can well imagine. I mean, some of the 366 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:48,920 the deaths I've seen in apartments all over New York, I would not be 367 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:53,880 surprised at all to know that there's some kind of paranormal activity there. Some 368 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:59,799 many of the deaths were tragic, so there, as I understand it, 369 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:07,440 paranormal activity takes place more when there's a tragic death, when it's conflict and 370 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,640 things. I mean, I don't know if that's true. No, it 371 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,119 does happen that way too, but it's just there. Want things take place 372 00:31:14,599 --> 00:31:19,519 regardless whether it's tragic or not. You have spirits that stay around just because 373 00:31:19,559 --> 00:31:22,759 they've got unfinished business or they were really happy and they don't want to leave. 374 00:31:23,519 --> 00:31:27,680 And what I've made it my goal is when I have been called into 375 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:33,039 places to do paranormal investigations, when I speak to spirit, I let them 376 00:31:33,079 --> 00:31:37,240 know that I'm there out of respect and that I don't want to intrude. 377 00:31:38,079 --> 00:31:42,559 But if they want to tell us their stories, I'd be willing to listen 378 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:47,839 and write about it. And so I'm sensitive, but not nearly as sensitive 379 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:48,759 as some of the people that I work with. I mean, I have 380 00:31:48,799 --> 00:31:52,799 people that I work with that actually can see and hear. But when we 381 00:31:52,839 --> 00:31:59,119 go together as a group and we use tools and that energy that we have, 382 00:32:00,039 --> 00:32:02,640 we oftentimes get a really good reception. I mean, we do go 383 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:07,319 to places and nothing happens, but that's up to spirit if they want us 384 00:32:07,359 --> 00:32:10,359 there and they want to share, we're willing to listen, and it's really 385 00:32:10,359 --> 00:32:15,759 been a very fun experience for me. I never expected that in my older 386 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,400 years than I would be going through all of this. But I'm really enjoying 387 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,759 myself. I really am, and I feel like I have a person now. 388 00:32:21,839 --> 00:32:27,000 I'm doing something for spirit and then also group members helping each other out 389 00:32:27,119 --> 00:32:32,599 to learn and better ound gifts so that they'd become more streamlined. I guess 390 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:37,680 would be a good word to use in what we do. Yeah, yeah, 391 00:32:37,519 --> 00:32:44,160 well that's fascinating. Yeah, I'm sure if you're probably just walking down 392 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,359 the block in New York, you could probably pick up energy from all the 393 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:51,519 buildings and all the teap Remember when I worked in the city, when I 394 00:32:51,559 --> 00:32:54,640 worked in the street, and I'd be walking in the street, I mean, 395 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:59,200 you know, there were just mobs of people, and especially at lunchtime, 396 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,720 I'd be walking, and so many times I would be walking them, 397 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,720 I would say, oh, my goodness, that person looks so familiar to 398 00:33:05,759 --> 00:33:09,279 me. I feel like I know that person, And in my experiences now 399 00:33:09,359 --> 00:33:15,039 I've learned that possibly that person was somebody that I did have in my life 400 00:33:15,119 --> 00:33:21,160 in a previous life. I just recognize them because I recognize their soul. 401 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,759 So I do believe that there's there's a possibility in that. But I did 402 00:33:25,799 --> 00:33:30,079 have a lot of recognition when I was walking the streets and I wanted to 403 00:33:30,079 --> 00:33:34,480 go out to and go when do we know you're from? But they would 404 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,799 they would probably look at me like I was crazy. You know, So 405 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:42,759 you mean that when I die, if I want to, I can stick 406 00:33:42,799 --> 00:33:46,599 around. I don't want. I can haunt this apartment if you wanted to. 407 00:33:46,799 --> 00:33:52,240 Yeah, I don't recommend it, because I try it. I try 408 00:33:52,279 --> 00:33:57,759 and explain to people that you when you pass on, you can come back 409 00:33:57,799 --> 00:34:00,680 and visit any time you want, if you go into the light, because 410 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:05,039 we do receive messages and visits from aunt deceased loved ones, and I got 411 00:34:05,039 --> 00:34:07,199 them personally from my dad the day he died and my mother in law when 412 00:34:07,239 --> 00:34:12,440 she died. But they also knew that they could come to me. We 413 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,679 always said it, especially my motherwise. She said, if I can, 414 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,840 let you know, I'm going to come back, and she did. So. 415 00:34:19,679 --> 00:34:22,199 I like to tell people that if those little nuances that you get if 416 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:28,800 you pick something in particular. A lot of people pick like butterflies or dragonflies 417 00:34:29,039 --> 00:34:36,280 or a cloud or coins, whatever it is that you pick as your signature's 418 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,400 going. If you get a message and you hear it's mom or it's great 419 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:45,920 grandmam, receive it and accept it because that's the beauty of it. They 420 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:51,960 are letting you know that they are with you always. And that little symbolism. 421 00:34:52,119 --> 00:34:53,800 Don't let anyone tell you, oh, that's nothing, because it is 422 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:59,760 something. You receive it for what it is, and it's really special to 423 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:04,280 get those messages from them, even in those little nuances. Yeah, just 424 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,679 leaving a coin on that butterfly, that's well, that bird. My father 425 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,199 was with big birds and my mother in law. It's birds. And when 426 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,239 they come and they sit on the ledge of my house and they are just 427 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,239 looking at me, I know they're not there, just looking at me. 428 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:24,159 It's one of them saying hang on here. That's wonderful, comforting absolutely to 429 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:29,840 know that they are always with us. And so when people tell me these 430 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:31,840 stories that they've had, or they're just cease loved ones coming to visit them, 431 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:37,599 they're just they're wonderful, inspiring, faith based stories, whatever anyone's religion 432 00:35:37,679 --> 00:35:42,480 or belief is, to know that there's something beyond. And so I like 433 00:35:42,519 --> 00:35:45,760 to tell people that when you go through that light, you can come back 434 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,519 and visit any time you want. But if you don't go through the light, 435 00:35:49,559 --> 00:35:53,159 you're kind of stuck here. So go to the light and then come 436 00:35:53,159 --> 00:35:59,679 back and visit. I like that. I like that. Okay, good 437 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:06,119 will haunt this apartment pigging out. But I'm sure that so many of the 438 00:36:06,199 --> 00:36:10,960 death scenes that I did would be haunted, because you know what, when 439 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,119 I think about a case, like there was a Dominican family uptown and a 440 00:36:16,199 --> 00:36:22,119 father, mother, and three sons. And when I got there, the 441 00:36:22,199 --> 00:36:28,239 father and the mother had both been shot, and so had the twelve year 442 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,519 old boy. And there was a three year old boy walking around that apartment 443 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:39,599 in his parents' blood, his little tiny footprints in their blood. Now, 444 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:44,880 they turned out the murderers were looking for the other son, the seventeen year 445 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:49,760 old. They were drunk people, and I guess the seventeen year old was 446 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,239 working for them. Maybe he took off some money or something, so they 447 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:59,519 went and killed his entire family. Old boy, old boy, I mean, 448 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:02,840 I mean, I imagine that three year old, even though he was 449 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:07,920 three, that has to stay with him. Something I have to be like 450 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:14,039 in the subconscious back there and come to the forefront somewhere in life. I 451 00:37:14,039 --> 00:37:16,280 would imagine, I mean, oh yeah, yeah, I would think so, 452 00:37:16,599 --> 00:37:21,039 I would absolutely think so. I know, I can't get it out 453 00:37:21,079 --> 00:37:24,199 of my head. I see those work, his tiny toe prints. I 454 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:31,079 see them in my mind so clearly that kind of tragedy to have your whole 455 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:36,599 family killed. I know that his little spirit. I pray for him, 456 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:42,119 that his little spirit is free, is happy, is cared for, because 457 00:37:42,159 --> 00:37:45,760 that was God. He must be in his twenties. Now. I hope 458 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:50,679 he's okay. But we say that that is the most gruesome or horrific case 459 00:37:50,679 --> 00:37:54,199 you've ever been in. Bombdon Or No, no, no, unfortunately, 460 00:37:54,320 --> 00:38:00,559 not no, no, no, no, there were people are strange, 461 00:38:00,679 --> 00:38:05,119 and we tend to think that, oh, everybody's just like us, that 462 00:38:05,199 --> 00:38:09,400 we all live in homes or apartments and we have families, we have friends, 463 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:15,199 we go to work, you know, we do everyday things. It's 464 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:20,559 not really like that at all. That's just the majority of us. Sure 465 00:38:20,679 --> 00:38:23,559 we live like that, we live decent lives, but there are so many 466 00:38:23,599 --> 00:38:30,639 who don't. There are people who live on the fringe of society and have 467 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:37,000 rules and beliefs that are so different than the rest of us, and I 468 00:38:37,079 --> 00:38:40,840 get to see that, and it's not a fun thing to see. One 469 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:45,119 guy I can think of he was at a club and he met a woman 470 00:38:45,159 --> 00:38:50,039 there and he said to her, listen, let's go to your place. 471 00:38:50,079 --> 00:38:52,480 Well party. Here's fifty dollars. Why don't you go get us some cocaine 472 00:38:53,039 --> 00:38:58,519 and then we'll go party. Well she took off and with his money, 473 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:04,400 and he was serious. So he went to her apartment and she wasn't there, 474 00:39:04,559 --> 00:39:08,480 but her eight year old daughter was. So he took the eight year 475 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:15,880 old daughter and he raped her and then he smothered her and threw her in 476 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:22,320 a garbage sheep. So that was so devastating to me. That was very 477 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:28,000 early in my career. But what really killed me was that the guy when 478 00:39:28,039 --> 00:39:31,039 he explained to the cops what happened, that he thought it was justified. 479 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,360 He said, no, no, guys, you don't understand. She took 480 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:40,239 my fifty dollars so I had to take something. Oh my goodness. But 481 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:51,239 he actually believed that he was justified. So that case probably, I mean, 482 00:39:52,159 --> 00:39:54,639 I'm surprised I stayed at the job. That was one of my first 483 00:39:54,639 --> 00:40:01,960 autopsies seeing that case, and I asked the I was a woman pathologist, 484 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:06,559 doctor Jackie Lee. She was doing the autopsy, and I said, my 485 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,199 god, how do you stand this day after day? How can you see 486 00:40:09,199 --> 00:40:14,239 this and still live your life? She said, Barbara, when you leave 487 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:19,199 here each day, I want you to surround yourself with things of beauty or 488 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:25,800 music, love, food, dancing, everything, have creativity. In order 489 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:31,960 to act as a counterbalance against the destruction and despair and death that you're going 490 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:38,039 to see every day, you must surround yourself with beauty. She was absolutely 491 00:40:38,119 --> 00:40:46,400 right. Life and beauty are the only counterbalances we have to the evil that's 492 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:51,880 in the world. And I got myself a little house in the country, 493 00:40:52,159 --> 00:40:59,199 and there I had grass and trees and cats and dogs and things that were 494 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,679 alive. Brought your joy, That brought me joy, and that kept me 495 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:12,199 going through what was a pretty crazy job. Wow. So I think that's 496 00:41:12,599 --> 00:41:19,480 the opposition to evil is to create and to have joy and love. There's 497 00:41:19,519 --> 00:41:22,880 an awful lot of evil out there, Yeah, there really is. You 498 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:27,920 say that being in this position you learn some surprising lessons about life, and 499 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:34,079 that some of these lessons saved you from becoming a statistic yourself how showered with 500 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:38,800 gleeen. Well, you know, there were times when I was so depressed, 501 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:45,440 times in my life that everything was lost and I was suicidal. I 502 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:52,320 remember sitting in my apartment once I had lost my job, I was losing 503 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:55,559 my apartment, my relationship broke up, my brother had just died of a 504 00:41:55,639 --> 00:42:00,199 drug overdose. I felt like there was nothing left out there with a revolver 505 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:07,280 and practice. Oh no, no, well really yeah, yeah, sure, 506 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:14,119 yes, just click click. And that's probably one of the few times 507 00:42:14,159 --> 00:42:20,840 in my life that drinking saved me because I passed out from drinking. Yeah, 508 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,039 I had. I had a lot of times that depression was deep. 509 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:31,159 But then when I started to see people lose their lives who didn't want to 510 00:42:31,199 --> 00:42:35,360 lose their lives. They didn't want to die, They just wanted to live 511 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:40,719 and be happy. Right then I saw the value, the absolute value of 512 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:45,039 life. You know, we cling to it because it's all we have. 513 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:52,440 I saw that. But I saw things too, like grace and humility and 514 00:42:52,679 --> 00:42:57,599 kindness. I Land is a good example. Yeah yeah, yeah, the 515 00:42:57,639 --> 00:43:02,800 people who they live through terrible things and yet they just keep going. People 516 00:43:05,119 --> 00:43:10,239 who gave themselves up to save others. You know that kind of sacrifice is 517 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:15,760 so awe inspiring. When life is all we have and you give it up 518 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:21,840 for someone else to save a child, that's pretty crazy. And you know, 519 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,239 there are so many people in my life who I will never forget. 520 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:32,559 Cops and firemen and EMTs who rushed into burning buildings who you know, to 521 00:43:32,639 --> 00:43:38,039 try and save people, or who dove into the freezing river to rescue someone 522 00:43:38,599 --> 00:43:45,320 who was trying to commit suicide. People like that who inspire me every day 523 00:43:45,039 --> 00:43:52,159 to say life is precious, hold on to it, and I do so. 524 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:57,119 Now if I get depressed, I just remember there's something here for me. 525 00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:00,880 It's just around the corner. And there's so many people in the world 526 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:05,639 who are depressed, especially now, you know, after COVID, so many 527 00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:09,039 of us are lowly and isolated and in despair. And that's a lot of 528 00:44:09,119 --> 00:44:14,679 children too, And it concerns me a lot, you know, for people 529 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:20,239 to be depressed, that really concerns me, and I keep encouraging them. 530 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:24,599 Please get help, Please consider medications, talk to a doctor, talk to 531 00:44:24,639 --> 00:44:30,920 a priest, spiritual advisor, your family, talk to someone, don't die, 532 00:44:34,159 --> 00:44:37,800 don't give up. There's just too much to live for really, there 533 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,239 is, Yeah, you can't see it now when you're depressed. It's like 534 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:45,559 wearing gray glasses. Everything you see is gray. But if you can just 535 00:44:45,599 --> 00:44:50,480 get some help and pop those glasses off, you'll see that life is good. 536 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,360 And you know something you doing that is such a good thing because you 537 00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:58,719 never know that one seed that you plant is going to make the difference in 538 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,320 somebody's lives. And seen it happen when people said I was going to kill 539 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:07,840 myself until that person said what they said, Yeah, so you be amazed 540 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:13,920 what a difference what you say can make for a person. It's sure, 541 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,599 ken. All of us can be heroes, all of us can be life 542 00:45:16,599 --> 00:45:22,199 savers by doing the simple act of picking up the phone, say how you 543 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:29,079 doing, how's things going? Yep? Hey at work? And I was 544 00:45:29,119 --> 00:45:34,039 just talking to some man and I was the greeter at the register and I 545 00:45:34,039 --> 00:45:37,920 always try to have a smile on my face and I always try and say 546 00:45:37,639 --> 00:45:42,119 just something to make somebody smile. And he said that, he said, 547 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,119 thank you so much for your smile today, and it just was like, 548 00:45:45,199 --> 00:45:47,679 well, that's so nice to hear that because I do try to do that. 549 00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:53,199 Yeah, those simple things can make the difference to somebody. And you 550 00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:57,559 never know when you're going to get that response back. That's right, it's 551 00:45:57,599 --> 00:46:02,039 a gift. You're a smile to somebody was lonely or or tired or said. 552 00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:07,159 That's a gift. It's huge. I remember I was so depressed one 553 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:12,039 day. I was so damn lonely. My job was getting to me badly. 554 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:16,639 And I was walking down the street with my head down, and then 555 00:46:16,679 --> 00:46:22,039 I sort of felt something tugging at me, and I picked my head up 556 00:46:22,159 --> 00:46:28,440 and I started looking around at everything around me. And this young woman was 557 00:46:28,559 --> 00:46:31,920 walking to me, like striding happily as she said, damn, you look 558 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:42,440 good today, and I was like, ohh and and her that made it 559 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:47,280 burst out of her like a like a beacon, the light, the joy, 560 00:46:47,519 --> 00:46:52,880 the happiness that she felt, and it washed over me and I felt 561 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:57,880 so great, like Wow, somebody cared enough to say, damn, you 562 00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:04,159 look good today, even though I knew I look like shit. It's what 563 00:47:04,199 --> 00:47:07,639 you needed though, in that moment, that's what I needed. Yeah, 564 00:47:07,679 --> 00:47:10,920 And each of us can give that to anybody, and especially people who are 565 00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:16,480 mean or angry. You know, the customer in the store who was angry 566 00:47:16,519 --> 00:47:22,440 and berating you over nothing, and you know, just a few kind words 567 00:47:22,519 --> 00:47:29,920 can turn them around. Yeah, Barbara, thank you for what you do. 568 00:47:30,679 --> 00:47:34,840 Thank you, and thank you for writing this book, because I think 569 00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:37,440 that's going to make a difference toune for people who read it. Yeah, 570 00:47:37,519 --> 00:47:43,400 I think I've been very surprised at the number of people who've written to me. 571 00:47:43,559 --> 00:47:47,519 I get wonderful fan mail on my website, Barbara Butcher author, and 572 00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:52,360 people just write to me and tell me thank you for talking about depression, 573 00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:58,519 thank you for talking about alcoholism. It really helped. And so yeah, 574 00:47:58,559 --> 00:48:01,119 I'm glad I got to do one little thing, you know in the world. 575 00:48:01,159 --> 00:48:06,000 Why didn't you tell the listeners about your What the Dead Know book and 576 00:48:06,079 --> 00:48:09,800 how to get it as well as your wraps fighting contact information? Okay, 577 00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:15,360 yes, the book is called What the Dead No Learning about Life as a 578 00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:20,440 New York City death Investigator by Barbara Butcher, And yes, Butcher is my 579 00:48:20,519 --> 00:48:23,679 real name. It k it goes well with the job, right, it 580 00:48:23,679 --> 00:48:29,199 does now, And it's available and it's it's by published by Simon and Schuster. 581 00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:35,199 It's available in bookstores or on Amazon or on websites everywhere, and you 582 00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:37,639 know it is. It's a funny book. I mean there's a lot of 583 00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:43,719 whack you or in there dark humor, but it's about my adventures as a 584 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:49,000 death investigator and also about what it, what it did to me, what 585 00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,239 you know, what it did to my soul and how I got out of 586 00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:57,519 it. So it's a memoir and a true crime story and everything mixed up 587 00:48:57,519 --> 00:49:00,679 in one. And it's also got lessons and they're on forensics and stuff. 588 00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:04,920 So yeah, it's a fun book. It's a fun book, and I'm 589 00:49:05,039 --> 00:49:09,440 really pleased it's doing well. And who knows this a TV series they're discussing 590 00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:14,599 and we'll see what happens with that. How exciting. Yeah, yeah, 591 00:49:14,639 --> 00:49:16,840 it is, it is. I've been very very lucky, very fortunate. 592 00:49:17,639 --> 00:49:21,360 Well, thank you so much for joining me today. You've certainly lived in 593 00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:24,679 an extraordinarily interesting life, and I appreciate the fact that you've opened up and 594 00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:30,440 shared it with me today. Thank you so much. Bless you, and 595 00:49:30,519 --> 00:49:34,039 to my listeners. If you like listening to this week's episode and you're into 596 00:49:34,159 --> 00:49:38,079 all things paranormal, check out my other show, Eleanor Wagner's Creeping Real podcast 597 00:49:38,119 --> 00:49:42,559 out of the Post to Post Entertainment Network, which is available wherever you get 598 00:49:42,559 --> 00:49:45,000 your podcasts, and if any of you are interested in reading any of my 599 00:49:45,079 --> 00:49:51,280 books, you can find the links to them on Amazon unavailable. There, 600 00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:53,400 I write about the history of the town and the location. I add the 601 00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:57,599 paranormal story to the mix, and I finish it all off with photoons and 602 00:49:57,599 --> 00:50:00,800 evidence. Everybody loves a good go story, but there's nothing better than a 603 00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:05,280 true ghost story, So check it out and I hope you'll stay a while 604 00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:07,119 and listen to a silent crafter a stranger. Part two takes this out of 605 00:50:07,159 --> 00:50:13,360 the show. Thank you again, Barbara. Thanks ghostly listeners. You can 606 00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:19,559 sign up or level up on my author Eleanor Wagner Patreon program that's p A 607 00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:25,280 t R e O N, where you will find special bonus opportunities only available 608 00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:30,880 to its patrons, such as one on ones with me and co hosting opportunities 609 00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:37,719 on episodes of Eleanor Wagner's Strange and Scary World podcast. Thank you, paranormal 610 00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:43,920 enthusiasts for tuning in today. I hope you'll come back again. Remember to 611 00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,679 tap into your own gifts. Everyone has them, and in the meantime, 612 00:50:49,159 --> 00:50:50,760 make sure you're creeping it real