1 00:00:17,399 --> 00:00:20,879 We're back with another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Jahnski, 2 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,640 culture editor here at The Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,399 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr LST. 4 00:00:27,719 --> 00:00:31,879 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts as well, and give 5 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,640 us a subscription over to the premium version of The Federalist. Now, we're 6 00:00:35,719 --> 00:00:40,240 joined today by Elizabeth Grace Matthew. She wrote a really interesting essay called the 7 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:45,920 Failures of lean In Feminism over at Law and Liberty. She is a Philadelphia 8 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:51,359 based writer and editor. She recently completed the writing Fellowship with America's Future Foundation. 9 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:55,079 So Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining the show. Thank you 10 00:00:55,119 --> 00:00:58,799 so much for having me Emily. You know, I say it's timely because 11 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:03,039 I had not realized until reading your essay that it's the ten year anniversary of 12 00:01:03,119 --> 00:01:08,959 Cheryl Samberg's lean In. It's hard to actually overstate how important that book was. 13 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:14,359 It was like this monumental cultural moment, I think, probably in no 14 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:21,159 small part thanks to how it appealed to other elite women having similar experiences to 15 00:01:21,239 --> 00:01:26,400 Chryl Samberg. Obviously not quite on the same scale, but at varying degrees, 16 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,359 And so, Elizabeth, I wanted to ask you, reflecting kind of 17 00:01:30,359 --> 00:01:37,959 at that thirty thousand foot level on the last ten years of cultural impact of 18 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:42,560 political impact, when you think about that and lean in what comes to mind. 19 00:01:44,719 --> 00:01:48,719 Thank you so much, Emily for that question and for having me on 20 00:01:48,719 --> 00:01:53,120 to discuss this. I think one of the things that's really important to remember 21 00:01:53,640 --> 00:02:00,560 at that thirty thousand foot level is that this book was an inflection point in 22 00:02:00,599 --> 00:02:05,159 a much longer debate. Right, so we have the mommy wars that we 23 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:07,759 all know, the working moms versus the stay at home moms of the nineteen 24 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:13,000 nineties when I was growing up, and so forth. But this book was 25 00:02:13,159 --> 00:02:21,319 really written in response to Anne Marie Slaughter's twenty twelve Atlantic op ed that was 26 00:02:21,439 --> 00:02:25,080 under the title why Women Still Can't Have It All? And Slaughter was someone 27 00:02:25,199 --> 00:02:30,080 that had always worked full time. She was a Princeton professor, but when 28 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:36,319 she went into working for Hillary Clinton in the State Department under Barack Obama, 29 00:02:36,599 --> 00:02:40,840 she realized that a more traditional scheduled job, unlike academia, which was more 30 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:47,199 flexible, She recognized that that sort of a position could not allow women to 31 00:02:47,479 --> 00:02:51,719 at least the way it was structured, to be there with their families and 32 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,240 to excel in their work. And she was faced with this conundrum that so 33 00:02:55,360 --> 00:03:01,280 many women, particularly of the elite variety, who are competing for these types 34 00:03:01,319 --> 00:03:07,080 of positions know so well. And I think that by twenty twenty thirteen that 35 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,879 had been the case for quite some time. You had millennial women coming into 36 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:16,879 the workforce, you had boomer women ascending to positions of power and perhaps reaching 37 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:22,319 retirement. Gen X women sort of coming into their own as the top people 38 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:27,719 in the traditional elite worlds of business and journalism and academia, and so it 39 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:32,039 was really a moment when everybody was looking for sort of is there a resolution 40 00:03:32,319 --> 00:03:40,919 to this longstanding tension of work life balance or is this just an endless catch 41 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:44,960 twenty two where we sort of are always going to feel like we're failing on 42 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:49,680 both fronts if we accept this idea that anybody can have it all, or 43 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,599 that women in particular can have it all, or that, as Sandberg argued, 44 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:59,199 fifty percent of CEOs should be women and fifty percent of households should be 45 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:06,719 run by net and and that kind of understanding undergirding the modern feminist movement, 46 00:04:06,759 --> 00:04:14,159 the idea that where outcomes are disparate by sex, there must be something wrong, 47 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:19,680 either with the system or with individuals. I think this book really served 48 00:04:19,759 --> 00:04:30,519 to illuminate and explain how prevalent that view is, because it accepted that view 49 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,800 unquestioningly. You know, it's on a personal note. Our listeners probably know 50 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,399 right now because I talk about all the time. But my college job was 51 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,240 one of them. Was working for Christina Hoff summers at the American Enterprise Institute. 52 00:04:42,759 --> 00:04:45,959 And I was there when this book came out, and we went all 53 00:04:45,959 --> 00:04:53,519 over this book because it raised so many questions or actually forced conversations that we're 54 00:04:53,639 --> 00:05:00,199 right in Christina's wheelhouse. And it's so interesting to think back on, you 55 00:05:00,199 --> 00:05:03,720 know, point A and point B then and now. And I wanted to 56 00:05:03,759 --> 00:05:08,160 ask Elizabeth if you could reflect a little bit. You're just on your own 57 00:05:08,319 --> 00:05:15,040 personal experience as how you found and I think a lot of people our age, 58 00:05:15,079 --> 00:05:18,199 a lot of women our age, found better paths than the ones that 59 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:23,839 were being prescribed to us. It was kind of an early glimpset maybe the 60 00:05:24,319 --> 00:05:28,360 freak out that you know, anyone who challenged Cheryl Sandberg was subject to kind 61 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:30,079 of a freak out, and it was probably an early glimpset where the Left 62 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:34,720 was going in the post obombing years. But from your perspective and from your 63 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:41,160 personal experience, what did you find? You know, you're write about how 64 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:47,439 women in Scandinavia have found similar paths. What did you find just through your 65 00:05:47,439 --> 00:05:54,360 own experience as a path to freedom, fulfillment and all of those good things. 66 00:05:54,639 --> 00:05:58,199 Thank you so much. Yeah, so, I think that, as 67 00:05:58,199 --> 00:06:02,240 you said, there's so much to break down in this conversation, but anecdote 68 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,560 and personal experience can sort of help to eliminate some of it. So for 69 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:12,800 me, I am someone that went through an Ivy League undergraduate education. I 70 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:17,279 went on to get a doctorate, and I was hoping to pursue a doctorate 71 00:06:17,319 --> 00:06:24,199 in English literature. And it was ultimately considerations of wanting to settle near my 72 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:29,240 family and start my start my own family that led me to pursue it in 73 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,839 a different field and to come home to Philadelphia where I'm from, rather than 74 00:06:32,959 --> 00:06:38,959 sort of put my foot to the floor professionally as I was getting engaged and 75 00:06:39,079 --> 00:06:46,519 married. So once the decision to be a full time professional, but one 76 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:53,959 that would take considerations of family and family formation as furiously as I would take 77 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,800 my professional life, if not more seriously. Was sort of made, and 78 00:06:57,959 --> 00:07:02,720 for me that was a foundational decision, but it was also one that I 79 00:07:02,759 --> 00:07:09,199 wanted to make, and that I recognize myself as being so fortunate to be 80 00:07:09,319 --> 00:07:14,040 able to make. So I was in a position where I could choose to 81 00:07:14,079 --> 00:07:18,240 build my life in my career in a certain place so that I could hopefully 82 00:07:18,319 --> 00:07:21,439 be you feed on the ground with my children, or I could choose to 83 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:27,920 sort of let my career dictate where my family wound up settling and moving. 84 00:07:27,959 --> 00:07:32,199 And that was about being near my own parents and thereby having the ability to 85 00:07:32,279 --> 00:07:38,839 raise my own family in a place where they would have that extended network of 86 00:07:38,959 --> 00:07:44,759 support. Additionally, I was the one in my marriage. My husband is 87 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,680 also professionally ambitious. He's a lawyer, and I think so there's sort of 88 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:55,800 two prongs to consider here. The first is that he wound up being a 89 00:07:55,879 --> 00:08:01,920 lawyer at a fairly large firm that provide sufficient income that we're able to have 90 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:07,160 me step back professionally while the children are young. Now I'm freelancing. I 91 00:08:07,199 --> 00:08:11,160 was working full time until about eight months ago. But even in my full 92 00:08:11,199 --> 00:08:18,000 time positions, I prioritized flexibility. I went after writing teaching jobs that allowed 93 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,680 me to be on campus three days a week. So similar to Anne Marie 94 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:26,160 Slaughter whose essay really prompted you Sandberg's book, I had that academic flexibility. 95 00:08:26,759 --> 00:08:33,320 And because I was not a ten year track academic pursuing conferences and those sorts 96 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,279 of things, I was able to really put my kids first because that's really 97 00:08:37,279 --> 00:08:43,039 what I wanted to do. And my husband also puts the kids first in 98 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,320 myriad ways. He left a big law firm to be at a less big 99 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,039 one so that he could do that, but he also is in a position 100 00:08:50,159 --> 00:08:54,159 so that I can be as flexible as I want. So that's sort of 101 00:08:54,200 --> 00:09:00,159 one prong is that I have. I'm blessed and fortunate to have the kind 102 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:07,480 of financial flexibility and cultural flexibility that when women have it as they do in 103 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:13,080 countries that provide tremendous amounts of familial support from government, like the Nordic countries, 104 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:18,960 and that are culturally very progressive in the sense that women are not you 105 00:09:20,639 --> 00:09:24,679 said not to be in any specific discipline. Women tend to prioritize more time 106 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:31,360 with their families. In the Nordic countries, women's investment in family as opposed 107 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:37,440 to work went up, not down, as the governments of those countries tried 108 00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:41,519 to facilitate more parity between the sexes. So that might have been a surprise 109 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:46,840 to a lot of folks that share Cheryl Sandburg's view of women and work, 110 00:09:46,879 --> 00:09:50,559 but it's not a surprise to me because it's also been my own experience. 111 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:56,000 But the other prong here, and one that I think was left out of 112 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,840 Sandberg's work entirely, and is also left out of much of this disco, 113 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,919 is that most women work full time, not because they necessarily want to, 114 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:11,279 but because they need money. They have jobs rather than careers. And that's 115 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:16,879 true of most men too, except that the fulfillment of taking care of a 116 00:10:16,919 --> 00:10:22,080 family for both women and men is obviously incredibly important when it comes to work. 117 00:10:22,759 --> 00:10:26,879 But the majority of women you know. In Sandberg's books, she tells 118 00:10:26,879 --> 00:10:31,080 this anecdote about here's how you can put your foot to the floor professionally but 119 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,080 also get home to have dinner on the table at five thirty, and I 120 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,679 remember reading it and thinking, well, someone's going to have to make the 121 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,320 dinner, right, Like if I get home at five thirty, how are 122 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:43,279 we supposed to eat it? But you know, just that sort of oversight 123 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:50,440 of the amount of help that women at those elite levels are typically purchasing, 124 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,960 typically from other women who are not as privileged. So when I was this 125 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:00,399 is to go back to your question, I apologize for the roundabout getting it. 126 00:11:01,039 --> 00:11:03,279 When I was starting out, my husband was still in law school. 127 00:11:03,279 --> 00:11:07,320 We got married fairly young, and it was not at all clear that he 128 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:13,559 would eventually have the kind of salary that would enable me to be professionally flexible 129 00:11:13,639 --> 00:11:16,799 in the sense of not having a full time job, and so I went 130 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:24,159 after stability and flexibility less so fulfillment right. Not that I didn't like teaching. 131 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,159 I liked it wonderfully, I had great experiences. But I went after, 132 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:30,440 Okay, where can I teach writing full time? Get our family on 133 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,720 good benefits because I didn't know what he would end up doing, and he 134 00:11:33,799 --> 00:11:37,080 had significant student debt. You know, we didn't have a trust fund, 135 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,200 and so I was sort of in both of those positions, you know, 136 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:46,840 like the one where I needed to work for money and would optimize around that. 137 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:50,399 And now, you know, a decade after getting married in the position 138 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:56,600 where I'm able to really prioritize both my professional fulfillment in terms of what I 139 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,840 do freelance and my children, which is a position that very very few women 140 00:12:00,879 --> 00:12:05,320 are ever fortunate enough to be in. There's so much to kind of go 141 00:12:05,399 --> 00:12:09,120 through there, and about the point that this fight sort of presaged fights that 142 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:13,759 will come after Obama was out of office and in the Trump years. Um, 143 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,679 you know, you have one line in this piece. It's probably the 144 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:24,759 most provocative line. It's really short, but it's great, and I think 145 00:12:24,759 --> 00:12:28,840 it gets at so much else in this issue, not just in this particular 146 00:12:28,919 --> 00:12:31,600 essay, but in the issue that you cover more broadly. And the line 147 00:12:31,759 --> 00:12:37,000 is, we don't need fifty percent of women to be CEO. And of 148 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:41,320 course, um, if you said anything like that in elites r C suite 149 00:12:41,399 --> 00:12:45,200 circles, you would be called sexist. You would you would be you know, 150 00:12:45,279 --> 00:12:48,679 chased off the cocktail party circuit. But um, I wanted to see 151 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,679 you know that, And in that sense, this does sort of become an 152 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:58,559 early glimpse at those flights, those fights that would be very much divided along 153 00:12:58,799 --> 00:13:03,039 class lines and not just sort of les versus. Right. But on that 154 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,720 note, I wanted to say if you could honestly just flesh out that point, 155 00:13:05,799 --> 00:13:09,480 a short line, but a provocative line, and I'd love to hear, 156 00:13:09,519 --> 00:13:13,720 Elizabeth, if you could just explain that argument a little bit right now. 157 00:13:13,799 --> 00:13:18,120 Yeah, absolutely, thank you. So I think a lot of this 158 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:26,440 is about the broader impetus on the far left that has come to prioritize equality 159 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:31,799 of outcome over equality of opportunity. So to be clear, I am all 160 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,799 for and could not be more for, and actually have experiences in my own 161 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:41,879 life that makes me even more for the eradication of the sort of old school 162 00:13:41,919 --> 00:13:46,879 sexism, as well as the Broye culture of some professions, or just the 163 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:54,720 ways in which Samper discusses women's likability being considered differently than men's in professions. 164 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:01,320 I'm all for eradicating those structural barriers to advancement for women that wish to advance, 165 00:14:01,759 --> 00:14:07,000 whether like myself, to advance within the university. And I can speak 166 00:14:07,039 --> 00:14:09,799 to and have written about elsewhere some of those experiences that do speak to that 167 00:14:09,919 --> 00:14:18,039 older kind of sexism that does still exist and that does still animate many women's 168 00:14:18,039 --> 00:14:22,360 experiences in many fields. Certainly it animated many of my own mother's experiences who 169 00:14:22,519 --> 00:14:28,840 was a woman in government and business back in the nineteen eighties, and so 170 00:14:28,039 --> 00:14:35,559 I'm not in any way discounting that. However, to take that and then 171 00:14:35,639 --> 00:14:41,480 apply it so broadly that we say every woman who drops out of the workforce, 172 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:46,120 or who steps back from the workforce, or who pursues a less competitive 173 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:52,240 career track to take care of her children, or to have more time with 174 00:14:52,279 --> 00:14:56,039 her children, or to do elder care, or to travel or to whatever 175 00:14:56,159 --> 00:14:58,759 for whatever set of reason or reasons. Typically it's family formation, but it 176 00:14:58,799 --> 00:15:03,960 does have to be to say that she is in some way structurally oppressed, 177 00:15:03,039 --> 00:15:07,759 that she doesn't necessarily know her own mind, or to say that she is 178 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:16,159 being prevented by a culture that rejects her abilities. To say that she doesn't 179 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:24,120 become the CEO for reasons that are outside of her own control is not entirely 180 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:28,399 or even mostly true in many cases. Again, there are still those systemic 181 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:33,519 barriers. They do still exist. They are enormously lesser than what they once 182 00:15:33,559 --> 00:15:39,360 were. Right, there's been tremendous progress made, But the fact that we're 183 00:15:39,399 --> 00:15:43,759 focusing on a quality of outcome as though women should want to certain saying that 184 00:15:43,799 --> 00:15:52,080 they should change their preferences or their trajectories in accordance with some predetermined notion of 185 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:58,799 how our CEO class should look. I think is really paternalistic and or maternal, 186 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,960 depending on how you want to say it. Toward you, toward toward 187 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:11,759 women who are in many cases the most educated, self aware people in our 188 00:16:11,799 --> 00:16:15,919 society. They have the freedom and the skills to determine what they want, 189 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:22,639 and in large measure, they are choosing to step back to be with families. 190 00:16:22,679 --> 00:16:26,679 Now, some fathers make that choice instead, and some women do go 191 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:32,399 on to be CEOs or to maximize their careers. That's great, that's fine, 192 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:37,200 that's wonderful. Every family formation technique in terms of who does care and 193 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,799 who does work, and how you blend that together. And in most families, 194 00:16:40,799 --> 00:16:42,679 of course, to the extent that there are two adults, both of 195 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:47,000 them are working to one extent or another, I think that's all to the 196 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:52,919 good and show societal naturation. But I think this overfocus on equality of outcome 197 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:59,320 by the essentialist sort of idea of sex that many on the far left would 198 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:06,759 otherwise to floor in every other scenario, is really problematic and extremely infantilizing of 199 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:11,400 adult women who are making their own choices. I will say I think that 200 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:15,519 there is an argument to be made, and many on the far left and 201 00:17:15,559 --> 00:17:22,559 even the broader left would make it about how a field or a discipline may 202 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:26,319 be inhospitable to women when no women are in it. So the idea that 203 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:33,160 girls who code are getting girls into stem these sorts of things are not inherently 204 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:37,200 bad. In fact, I think they're inherently good. Just like on the 205 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:41,200 other side. Richard Reeves, who wrote a book recently about Boys and Men, 206 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:45,920 about the crisis and sort of male educational attainment, has been talking a 207 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,960 lot about incentivizing men to get into early childhood education is a great thing, 208 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,319 and I actually am not at all opposed to that. But there's a difference 209 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:59,880 between incentives that help people to make decisions they might otherwise make if they did 210 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:06,680 feel culturally odd or you know, different, for doing so and forcing them 211 00:18:06,799 --> 00:18:11,400 or expecting them to make decisions that they wouldn't make. I think there's a 212 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,039 huge difference between those two things. There's another line in the piece that's similar 213 00:18:15,079 --> 00:18:15,960 in the senses. It's sort of like the tip of the iceberg, and 214 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,039 there's so much more going underneath it, where you write. Moreover, even 215 00:18:19,079 --> 00:18:23,400 in professions where women are as likely to be in positions of supreme power as 216 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,839 men, such as academia where I work for over a decade, motherhood is 217 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:32,039 often incompatible with continued advancement. In part as noted above, this is because 218 00:18:32,039 --> 00:18:34,880 women choose to pursue are flexible and less ambitious career pads in order to be 219 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:40,480 more available for their children. In some professions, that's inevitable. Some careers 220 00:18:40,559 --> 00:18:45,079 simply are not and cannot be flexible. And then you also add, if 221 00:18:45,079 --> 00:18:48,359 we had greater respect from any women's desires to tend to their families while maintaining 222 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:52,480 their careers, more women might find it possible to advance professionally while raising children. 223 00:18:52,839 --> 00:18:56,440 So the question becomes, you know, what does that look like you 224 00:18:56,559 --> 00:19:03,000 practically, pragmatically, what does that look like in the workplace where is there 225 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:07,200 more that needs to be done? But in which direction does it need to 226 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:08,799 go? And is it more that needs to be done to create a space 227 00:19:08,839 --> 00:19:14,240 for mothers who want to work to work, or is it more that needs 228 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,920 to be done in the space that allows women who don't want to work or 229 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:22,839 who wants to work very part time to stay at home. And to be 230 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:26,440 supported by a male breadwinner. Basically, you know, to talk to us 231 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:32,039 more about what you mean with that line. Yeah. Absolutely, So I 232 00:19:32,079 --> 00:19:37,039 think there's really two sides to this, as you just stated. One is 233 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:42,000 professions that are more flexible where more could be done to accommodate motherhood, and 234 00:19:42,039 --> 00:19:45,839 the other is professions that are inherently, if you want to ascend to the 235 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:51,200 highest levels, inflexible. So I'm going to take the second one of those 236 00:19:51,319 --> 00:19:56,640 first. Laura Basilon, who is a trial attorney and also a professor of 237 00:19:56,759 --> 00:20:00,640 law, recently wrote a book called Ambitious Like a Mother that I'm sure you 238 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:07,119 have heard about her or read, and it sort of retrenches the Cheryl Sandberg 239 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:14,039 idea of lean and feminism, but also addresses directly the fact that she has 240 00:20:14,039 --> 00:20:18,400 had to make to advance to the highest echelons of her career and to do 241 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,960 what she felt was the best job. She was a public defender and now 242 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,599 also runs the Believa Legal Clinic at a law school of the name of which 243 00:20:25,599 --> 00:20:30,960 is Escaping Me somewhere on the West Coast. Basilon is super frank in that 244 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:36,359 book about the fact that she has had to prioritize her career over her children 245 00:20:36,799 --> 00:20:41,960 up to him, including to get the most advantageous trial date for a client 246 00:20:41,559 --> 00:20:47,240 missing her daughter's birthday. Now, I wouldn't do that, But that's also 247 00:20:47,279 --> 00:20:49,960 why I'm not a public defender running a legal aid clinic, right, because 248 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:56,640 I don't want to put myself in a position where I'm in that undeniable of 249 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:02,079 a conflict. Right. You have here a person who put aside. You 250 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:07,400 know, Basilon's vision of criminal justice maybe different than many people, but let's 251 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,279 take at face value that she feels this is important, that she is doing 252 00:21:11,279 --> 00:21:17,119 this work in the best and most advantageous way for her clients. There is 253 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:21,759 no way to square the circle between being in one city to be at that 254 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:26,960 trial on the most advantageous day and having her child's birthday. Most women will 255 00:21:27,079 --> 00:21:33,480 not make the choice that she made, and that's part of why her profession 256 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:37,200 at the level she's at, tends not to be people with the mothers of 257 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:42,359 young children. And you know that's okay with me, right. I think 258 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,400 there are certain realities that you know, there are twenty four hours in a 259 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,200 day, they're three hundred and sixty five days in a year, you know, 260 00:21:48,279 --> 00:21:55,000 I think there are certain realities that are just not able to be breached 261 00:21:55,119 --> 00:22:00,119 or to be massaged, right, And so I'm okay with that, and 262 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:07,680 I don't have any problem with that. I think that for some other women 263 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:12,279 in professions like the one I was in in academia, the ways in which 264 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:21,240 motherhood is penalized wind up being more cultural than professional. So again, for 265 00:22:21,319 --> 00:22:23,680 Basilon, there's nothing to be done. It's nobody's fault. It's not her 266 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,000 fault, it's not her client's fault. It just is the reality, right, 267 00:22:27,039 --> 00:22:30,680 And that's part of why perhaps there are going to be fewer women there, 268 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:36,359 and that's okay. In academia, on the other hand, the work 269 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,440 is inherently flexible, right, other than when you're in class or not or 270 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:45,680 whatnot, there are inherently a lot of personal choices built in about when you 271 00:22:45,759 --> 00:22:51,960 do what you do. And yet, because culturally the institution is not particularly 272 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:57,359 friendly to a more traditional version of motherhood that prioritizes direct childcare for some of 273 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:03,960 the reasons that we talked about relation to Cheryl Sandberg's vision of what motherhood and 274 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:10,480 family and womanhood look like, because the profession is not as friendly to that. 275 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,359 I think there are ways in which certain of the barriers that could be 276 00:23:15,519 --> 00:23:22,319 undone don't get undone because even though many women do advance, they tend to 277 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:27,440 be women that share Sandberg's view, and so they tend to be women that 278 00:23:27,599 --> 00:23:34,119 perpetuate rather than seek to reduce or get rid of the ways in which the 279 00:23:34,319 --> 00:23:42,799 culture is not friendly to families or to the involvement of family. Most academics 280 00:23:44,039 --> 00:23:48,240 are are on the left. That's not to say there aren't those who aren't, 281 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:53,759 but most are. Many of them would ascribe to Sandberg's vision of sort 282 00:23:53,759 --> 00:23:59,359 of fifty percent of women should run businesses and you know whatnot, and so 283 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:04,720 that as effect their orientation toward women like me, who frankly got off of 284 00:24:04,759 --> 00:24:08,720 the ten year track early because I could see right. Not that I got 285 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,400 on it, but I left without my PhD in the traditional discipline. I 286 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:18,079 got my doctorate in education, and I did that because I could see down 287 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:22,279 the road that I was not going to be able to get the kind of 288 00:24:22,319 --> 00:24:27,359 support that I wanted to have a family while also excelling in my career. 289 00:24:29,039 --> 00:24:33,039 This takes us down another interesting road. I remember when Donald Trump was debating 290 00:24:33,079 --> 00:24:37,799 whether to nominate Brett Kavanaugh or Amy Coney Barrett. I wrote a piece for 291 00:24:37,839 --> 00:24:41,440 The Washington Examiner at the time in which I said, you know, if 292 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:48,240 conservatives believe that there are essential biological differences at separate men and women, it 293 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:56,839 is logical that conservatives would seek to have one conservative woman, one justice of 294 00:24:56,039 --> 00:25:00,559 choice, or the conservative movement on the court that women. You know, 295 00:25:00,599 --> 00:25:03,319 if we believe men and women bring different experiences to the table, obviously we 296 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:08,519 expect justices to evaluate each case on the merits of the law and the Constitution. 297 00:25:10,519 --> 00:25:15,599 But we aren't blind to the reality that women have a different experience with 298 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,960 pregnancy, with motherhood, will have these with motherhood, but with you child 299 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,799 rearing, with family life, and with their bodies. And there are a 300 00:25:23,799 --> 00:25:29,480 lot of questions in which a woman just has a different experience and that experience 301 00:25:29,759 --> 00:25:36,759 is salient for its differences. So I guess the question then becomes, what 302 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,440 do what is the balance? You know, if you look at women, 303 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,960 by and large surveys wanting to work part time, But how do we as 304 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:52,599 a society ensure women's voices are included in conversations like, for instance, media, 305 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,000 I do think there are class blind spots in media. I think it's 306 00:25:56,039 --> 00:26:00,680 also important that you have you know, people who understand differently what it's like 307 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,559 to carry a child in their womb or to you know, from men, 308 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,799 or what it's like to actually use, for instance, birth control or something 309 00:26:08,839 --> 00:26:15,039 like that in those conversations. So how do we balance that as a society, 310 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,720 especially given that so many women do want to work part time? How 311 00:26:18,759 --> 00:26:22,599 should we sort of shape things, order things, and uh, you know, 312 00:26:22,759 --> 00:26:29,920 as women determine where we best serve, you know, the world, 313 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,240 the causes we believe in. Yeah, that's a great question. So one 314 00:26:33,279 --> 00:26:37,480 thing I'll say is that I have a lot of friends who are who are 315 00:26:37,559 --> 00:26:42,119 nurses. And you know, obviously that's not a profession that's proclaiming on different 316 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,920 areas of policy and government and business, and I'll get to that in a 317 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,319 moment, but that is a profession that is run by women. And it 318 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,759 is also a profession that is purple. And by purple, I mean it's 319 00:26:55,759 --> 00:27:00,240 about fifty fifty maybe a little more blue in terms of political oriented ship. 320 00:27:00,319 --> 00:27:06,839 And because of that, I think that it creates a space where women are 321 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:11,480 able to advance while also stepping back. So what I mean by that is 322 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:15,200 one of my good friends and I we both have small children, And when 323 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,880 I was thinking about stepping back from academia, I was explaining to her that 324 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,079 it's you know, if you go part time, you're basically not there right, 325 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:30,960 you're adjunct ing, There's no advancement trajectory, etc. Whereas in nursing 326 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,440 there is. She was able to go part time and maintain her position, 327 00:27:33,559 --> 00:27:38,400 maintain her seniority, expect to go back in and leave a clinical and run 328 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,799 a floor at some point. And that really struck me because I was not 329 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:49,319 aware that that was an option in any discipline, because I've been in spaces 330 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:56,920 that are extremely beholden to the Cheryl Sandberg view of womanhood and women's advancement for 331 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,839 pretty much my entire professional life, and I thought, wow, that's pretty 332 00:28:00,839 --> 00:28:07,400 incredible. I wonder if there are ways to apply those sorts of that understanding, 333 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,920 right, both that women want to excel professionally in this predominantly female discipline 334 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:18,480 in this case, and also that women are going to often have different desires 335 00:28:18,559 --> 00:28:25,599 than men when it comes to young children. And I think there are probably 336 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:32,559 ways to be a lot more intentional about doing that in other disciplines, But 337 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:41,559 what it would require is a really pluralistic unideological view of motherhood, meaning that 338 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,519 some women are going to be like Lara Basilon and they are going to miss 339 00:28:45,519 --> 00:28:49,039 their daughter's birthday to be at the trial and then write New York Times op 340 00:28:49,119 --> 00:28:55,039 eds about it, and that's fine for them, Right, There shouldn't necessarily 341 00:28:55,079 --> 00:29:00,119 be cultural judgment around that. In a way that feels like it speaks into 342 00:29:00,119 --> 00:29:04,720 the professional space. Right, The gains that someone like Basilan gets for doing 343 00:29:04,759 --> 00:29:08,599 that professionally are going to be gains, and that's fine. And on the 344 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:15,839 flip side, someone that wishes to be involved in that discipline to write the 345 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:22,359 legal briefs, to be you know, speaking on the news, to be 346 00:29:22,519 --> 00:29:26,559 writing things at the Supreme Court level. You know, there's a way to 347 00:29:27,359 --> 00:29:33,599 have, especially now and are increasingly gig and work from home economy, for 348 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:41,440 those people to advance without necessarily making them feel that they are stepping back from 349 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,799 their own eventual trajectory. I think that's something that you know, would impact 350 00:29:45,839 --> 00:29:48,160 a lot of men positively as well as women, though it would be predominantly 351 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,599 women. And I also think of a talk I went to in college with 352 00:29:52,839 --> 00:29:55,759 metal and Allbright, who of course is the first female Secretary of State, 353 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:57,319 and someone asked her, how did you have it all? You have four 354 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:02,319 or five kids, and you you did all this and you and she basically 355 00:30:02,359 --> 00:30:03,319 said, well, you can't have it all at once. And of course 356 00:30:03,359 --> 00:30:08,200 she's from an older generation that accepted that, even if they expected advancement, 357 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,680 they accepted that, you know, you couldn't do everything in the same day. 358 00:30:12,079 --> 00:30:15,319 And partly that's because they often had children younger, and those go into 359 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,599 bigger cultural questions that you know, require a whole other conversation to get into, 360 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,079 I think. But I was really impressed by that answer because I thought 361 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:29,920 that's absolutely true, right, there have to be ways to remain professionally relevant 362 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:36,759 and ascending while also prioritizing family. And I think that's something that people with 363 00:30:37,039 --> 00:30:42,920 Albright's political pedigree and orientation might not say the same way now, which is 364 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:51,799 really unfortunate. Yeah, I mean this is it's again you point out we 365 00:30:51,799 --> 00:30:56,920 don't live in a dramatically different world than the world in which Standberg lived in. 366 00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,480 And by that, you know, I don't mean obvious. There are 367 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,160 major differences, and we've talked about some of them, but we aren't, 368 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:11,279 you know, in a completely different time period for women, and I see 369 00:31:11,279 --> 00:31:18,279 a whole lot of pieces from Axios and others celebrating in recent days women's post 370 00:31:18,319 --> 00:31:22,000 COVID return to the workplace that they're you know, putting up some numbers that 371 00:31:22,039 --> 00:31:26,079 we as women are putting up numbers that are comparable to before the pandemic. 372 00:31:26,119 --> 00:31:30,200 And to me, that just looks like a whole lot of you know, 373 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:37,400 corporate media people celebrating that women are coping with inflation and costs by taking jobs 374 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:42,640 they don't want, by entering the workforce to deal with costs against their wishes. 375 00:31:44,599 --> 00:31:48,559 But you know, with a decade in the review mirror from show Sandberg, 376 00:31:48,559 --> 00:31:52,400 which is still so crazy to think about. I mean, there were 377 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,480 these circles. They were called what like lean in circles or something. At 378 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,920 the time, I mean, there was the sense that she had really started 379 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,359 this movement and gall of anized women to you know, put on their heels 380 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:07,759 and lean in and negotiate and make the big bucks. But it's sputtered out, 381 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:12,279 And I guess I wonder, you know, now that we're ten years 382 00:32:12,279 --> 00:32:15,559 out, Elizabeth, is there anything we can take from that sort of failed 383 00:32:15,759 --> 00:32:22,279 arc of lean in, from the fact that it fizzled. What does that 384 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:28,039 tell us maybe about our world, maybe about the human condition. What does 385 00:32:28,079 --> 00:32:31,200 it tell us maybe about women? What do you think? I think there 386 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:37,319 are two things that I would would take away. One is a bigger cultural 387 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:46,880 reality, which is the stay at home mom versus working mom sort of idea 388 00:32:47,119 --> 00:32:54,799 ten years ago still felt somewhat relevant. That was my own mother's experience. 389 00:32:54,839 --> 00:33:00,599 She was the primary wage earner in my family when I was young, as 390 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:05,359 my dad was beginning an academic career, and then she quit. And when 391 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,559 she quit, it was like, now she quit, and she's home with 392 00:33:07,599 --> 00:33:13,279 three children, and she's supporting her husband's career, and she's doing elder care 393 00:33:13,319 --> 00:33:16,480 and she's maybe volunteering, but like she was out of the professional workforce. 394 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:22,599 And you know, that was nineteen ninety two or three, And by twenty 395 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:27,839 thirteen, twenty years later, that still felt semi relevant because it was, 396 00:33:28,319 --> 00:33:30,160 you know ten You know what, however, six years, seven years before 397 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:36,319 the pandemic, and while obviously everyone was online, the gig economy of a 398 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,400 sort of freelancing as a norm had not really picked up yet the way that 399 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:47,720 it has now for a lot of college educated people. And by the time 400 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,200 that Baslon's book came out last year that sort of picked up on some of 401 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:57,079 these threads. My primary reaction to it, in addition to sort of say, 402 00:33:57,119 --> 00:33:59,400 well, we've take much of her kinds of careers and some of the 403 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,319 things it in this piece, my primary action with this is really dated, 404 00:34:04,119 --> 00:34:07,280 right, the idea that there's this binary between women that work and women that 405 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,599 stay home. I mean, I'm a woman that stays home and works, 406 00:34:09,679 --> 00:34:14,280 right, and there's a lot of women like me now, So I think 407 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:19,800 there's that reality. Just the cultural and economic reality has changed, sus that 408 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:25,519 this debate is now so much more nuanced and multifaceted, which also in turn 409 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:31,559 makes it a lot more philosophical and psychological and cultural than actually focused on policies 410 00:34:31,599 --> 00:34:37,519 and realities and logistics around work. So I think that's that's one reality. 411 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:45,119 The other reality is that I think broader culture are broader culture. Now there's 412 00:34:45,119 --> 00:34:52,239 a level of dissatisfaction and discontent and malaise. I guess would be would be 413 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,280 one word you could use, you know, the level of anxiety, the 414 00:34:55,400 --> 00:35:01,000 level of mental health concerns, which are particularly prevalent among the Sandburg demographic now 415 00:35:01,039 --> 00:35:07,760 in their senties. Right, those things can't be solved by more hours on 416 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:09,880 the corporate treadmill, right, that doesn't create meaning. It can it can 417 00:35:10,199 --> 00:35:14,960 it can invest meaning, it can be invested with meaning. It's not that 418 00:35:15,039 --> 00:35:20,199 it's a bad thing, but I think people are looking for other outlets, 419 00:35:20,599 --> 00:35:23,639 women as well as men, but women perhaps in particular at this moment, 420 00:35:23,639 --> 00:35:30,400 if the data on mental health are in the indication, are looking for areas 421 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:37,800 with which to create meaning that perhaps can't be met by a sort of corporate 422 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:44,880 work is mentality. And I think for women like Sandberg, like Basilon, 423 00:35:45,599 --> 00:35:50,960 who grew up in a culture that was still running on the fumes of so 424 00:35:51,079 --> 00:35:59,679 much family first Christian into religious, you know, other religious um way of 425 00:35:59,679 --> 00:36:05,679 seeing about the family and the self and the place in the culture. It's 426 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,880 hard for women who grew up with that to know what it would be like 427 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:16,320 to try to have their professional orientation without that, because even if you reject 428 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:24,079 that, even if you critique that, it still informs and influences and undergirds 429 00:36:24,159 --> 00:36:29,800 so many of the ways that you think that you derive meaning. And I 430 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,760 think now a lot of young women have lost that, and we're not providing 431 00:36:35,119 --> 00:36:38,559 some of those other aspects for the formation of self and identity and I think 432 00:36:38,559 --> 00:36:45,000 it's becoming clear that absent those leaning in will not get you anywhere if you're 433 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:51,920 very online capital v capital Oh like I unfortunately am. You are definitely aware 434 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,880 of the like trad cast trad wife trend, and it really has started to 435 00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:01,280 creep into mainstream culture popular culture in some super interesting ways. Like I saw 436 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:06,360 a video of Ben Shapiro reacting to like tried cafe videos the other day. 437 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,760 It's it's going mainstream, And I guess I wanted to ask you if this 438 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:15,760 has anything to do with the phenomenon of quiet quitting that took off after the 439 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:21,360 pandemic. You know, millennials gen Z are completely exhausted by the grind, 440 00:37:21,679 --> 00:37:24,119 at least if you if these trends are to be believed as any indication of 441 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:30,840 some sort of widespread sentiments among younger members of the workforce, and so I 442 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,760 guess, Elizabeth, my question is, is any of this sort of being 443 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:39,039 healed or going and shifting in a healthier direction. And maybe that premise is 444 00:37:39,079 --> 00:37:45,760 wrong, but is it possible that after the pandemic people are coming away with 445 00:37:45,199 --> 00:37:53,480 healthier approaches than the leaning approach to family and relationships and womanhood. What do 446 00:37:53,480 --> 00:38:00,239 you think, yeah, thank you for that question. I'm thirty five, 447 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:04,599 so I'm a little bit you know, young for the Sandberg demographing and a 448 00:38:04,639 --> 00:38:07,159 little bit old for the gen Z Quiet quitting. So I'm kind of writing 449 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,199 that millennial older millennial space, right, And I think a lot of the 450 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:15,199 trad wife craze is among women. My agent slightly younger than me, and 451 00:38:15,679 --> 00:38:21,239 I tend to look at it as a bit of an overcorrection because to me, 452 00:38:22,039 --> 00:38:28,760 that feels like another way of leaning in that is sort of premised on 453 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:36,840 an idea of identity being being the highest thing. So it's a it's a 454 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:44,239 very curated and performative identity. I think, you know, similar to the 455 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,440 Standberg idea of women are going to do this. This is just no women 456 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,719 are going to do this and be happy. No women are going to do 457 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,119 this and be happy. And I am really sort of allergic to the idea 458 00:38:54,199 --> 00:38:58,559 that there's anything in particular that all women should do and be happy. I 459 00:38:58,599 --> 00:39:06,000 think there's a lot of room for disagreement and for living different ways without even 460 00:39:06,039 --> 00:39:08,400 disagreeing, right, for saying, like the fact that we're both women, 461 00:39:08,559 --> 00:39:12,800 or that we're all women does not mean that we have to view these things 462 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:17,960 in common. But we should acknowledge that given the choice between trad wifery, 463 00:39:19,079 --> 00:39:23,719 shall we say and lean in Charyl Sandberg style, an enormously large number of 464 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:28,800 women, probably the majority, if not the supermajority, are going to choose 465 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,800 trad wifery. But isn't it great? But those are not our only two 466 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:37,960 options. So I think it would be a great thing if the quiet quitting 467 00:39:38,119 --> 00:39:42,559 could sort of, instead of being a quiet quitting, could be more of 468 00:39:42,599 --> 00:39:46,400 a you know, loud reshaping, if that makes sense of the way that 469 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:53,320 we think about womanhood and work and how they can be together in a life 470 00:39:53,360 --> 00:40:00,800 that centers family. Because I think that absent the necessity of of that old 471 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,119 binary I work, I stayed home, I think they can. You know, 472 00:40:04,159 --> 00:40:07,280 one thing I write and think a lot about is nineteenth century womanhood and 473 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:13,719 feminism in America, and the Industrial Revolution obviously moved work off of the farm 474 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,880 into the home, separated domesticity from work, and so you've had a long 475 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,559 period of time where women did domesticity and men did work, and then women 476 00:40:21,599 --> 00:40:24,199 started doing work too. And of course that was always the case that many 477 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:29,000 women who were not of the class of the women that could maintain their own 478 00:40:29,079 --> 00:40:36,880 independent homes without working had to go be servants or you know, otherwise occupied 479 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:42,199 in the homes of richer women. But there was this binary between domesticity and 480 00:40:42,599 --> 00:40:47,320 work, and I think that that was not the case before the Industrial Revolution, 481 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:52,159 right where work was on the farm and work was you know, productivity 482 00:40:52,159 --> 00:40:55,719 and home were intertwined. And I'm not by any means saying that we can 483 00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,760 intertwine them that way. I understand that, you know, it's not the 484 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:04,360 same collective and communal familial experience that it was then that's not going to be. 485 00:41:05,119 --> 00:41:08,039 But I think that we're still talking in when we say lean in or 486 00:41:08,079 --> 00:41:13,960 we say tradwife, we're kind of talking in the binary that was created about 487 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,960 one hundred and fifty or so or two hundred years ago, when really we 488 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,360 don't need to be in that binary at all, when we can have a 489 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:25,440 more pluralistic, nuanced idea of womanhood, work and how they fit together. 490 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,519 Again, this essay is up at Law and Liberty. It's called the Failures 491 00:41:30,559 --> 00:41:36,519 of lean in Feminism. Elizabeth Grace Matthew, thank you so much for joining 492 00:41:36,559 --> 00:41:39,800 us on today's edition of Federalis Radio Hour, and also for noticing that it 493 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:44,559 was the tenure anniversary of LinkedIn. I love LinkedIn of lean In. I 494 00:41:44,599 --> 00:41:46,800 hadn't realized that because the media doesn't seem to be talking about it. So 495 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:50,960 first, thank you for picking up on that. And secondly, where can 496 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:55,039 people follow your work? Sure I'm on a Twitter at Elizabeth G. Matt 497 00:41:55,039 --> 00:41:59,280 and my website with all of my work is also linked to that. Thank 498 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,079 you again for joining the show. Thank you you've been listening to another edition 499 00:42:02,079 --> 00:42:06,239 of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Jasinski, culture editor here at The 500 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,440 Federalist. We'll be back soon with more. Until then, being lovers of 501 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:15,880 freedom and anxious for the Fray