WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:21.600
I'm Jacob Kyle, and this is
chitheads to Hellenism is a holistic worldview which

2
00:00:21.640 --> 00:00:26.280
has as its goal the awakening,
or how the entrance would say, the

3
00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:37.079
youdneumonia of the human being, which
is the realization of ourselves shun. The

4
00:00:37.119 --> 00:00:45.759
One manifests in all, and all
is one. From that on arises consciousness,

5
00:00:46.280 --> 00:00:53.840
and from that consciousness arises soul.
And from soul all that continuation of

6
00:00:53.880 --> 00:01:02.359
the One appears as matter. And
therefore there is no duality between consciousness matter

7
00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:17.719
Essex doesn't mean morality. Ethics really
means habits of energy, zality Korea,

8
00:01:19.079 --> 00:01:36.159
ritual korea, shati shat shainty.
Where are the wisdom traditions of the Western

9
00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:42.640
world? What lineages that historically originated
in European thought have something like a practice

10
00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:48.599
of yoga that we find in the
traditions of India and South Asia. One

11
00:01:48.680 --> 00:01:53.040
argument as to why so many so
called Western people flee to the so called

12
00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:59.079
Eastern spiritual paths is because of the
loss of our wisdom traditions. As Western

13
00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:05.319
cultures, esoteric wisdom has been supplanted
by fundamentalist organized religions. Faith in a

14
00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:10.680
particular religious dogma has been privileged over
the spiritual experience. As the great American

15
00:02:10.719 --> 00:02:16.039
philosopher of the late nineteenth century,
William James argued in his fascinating book The

16
00:02:16.120 --> 00:02:23.560
Varieties of Religious Experience, we misunderstand
the role of spiritual experience when we conflate

17
00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:28.800
it with organized religion. This isn't
to say that no spiritual experience can happen

18
00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:34.639
within the context of organized religions,
but rather that the popular structures of religion

19
00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:42.479
operating today have hardened into dogmas and
belief systems that have largely abandoned their technologies

20
00:02:42.520 --> 00:02:47.120
of contemplative practice. These technologies cultivate
the nervous system in such a way that

21
00:02:47.240 --> 00:02:54.039
spiritual experience becomes possible. But for
example, instead of having an embodied experience

22
00:02:54.120 --> 00:03:00.360
of the compassionate love that Christ symbolizes, Christians are told all they have to

23
00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:04.280
do is believe in Jesus Christ as
their Lord and savior to be saved from

24
00:03:04.319 --> 00:03:08.919
eternal damnation. The yoga traditions,
by contrast, have preserved an emphasis on

25
00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:16.439
embodied experience and harbor sophisticated mystical vocabularies
that give voice to the subtle varieties of

26
00:03:16.599 --> 00:03:23.039
yogic experience. Yoga philosophy itself is
unique in preserving a role for what is

27
00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:28.960
called yogi pratyaksha, a form of
perception that one finds represented in both Hindu

28
00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:35.120
and Buddhist philosophical traditions, that is
a kind of perception only possible through yogic

29
00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:40.479
meditative practice. It is unique in
that this perception challenges and dissolves an understanding

30
00:03:40.520 --> 00:03:46.879
of reality that is filtered through dichotomies
of subject and object, self and other,

31
00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:52.960
or microcosm and macrocosm. As I
interpret Athena's ideas in this episode of

32
00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:58.960
Chittheads, the Western tradition has its
own tradition of something like yoga, in

33
00:03:59.039 --> 00:04:04.000
so far as some ancient Greek philosophy
was connected to a Hellenic worldview that perceived

34
00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:11.319
reality as unitary. More than this, there were technologies employed by some ancient

35
00:04:11.319 --> 00:04:16.360
Greek philosophers and their schools that were
designed to cultivate an experience of that oneness.

36
00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:20.759
In other words, the ancient Greek
philosophy that has been passed down to

37
00:04:20.839 --> 00:04:27.560
us through Western intellectual history is one
that has been largely stripped of its notions

38
00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:32.000
of spiritual practice and experience. Athena's
work is unique, then, in trying

39
00:04:32.040 --> 00:04:36.399
to give voice to these forgotten elements
of ancient Greek thought, and in doing

40
00:04:36.439 --> 00:04:43.959
so, she lays a foundation for
remembering and reconnecting to esoteric spiritual traditions that

41
00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:47.360
are indigenous to the Western world.
A part of Athena's story that I very

42
00:04:47.399 --> 00:04:53.199
much relate to is her experience of
how connecting to the yoga traditions of India

43
00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:59.639
actually nourished a kind of experience and
spiritual knowledge that allowed her to return to

44
00:04:59.639 --> 00:05:05.879
her own indigenous philosophical heritage with a
clarified vision. By experiencing something like Yogi

45
00:05:05.879 --> 00:05:12.519
Pratiyaksha in her own adventure of practice, Athena was better able to recognize the

46
00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:17.839
deep wisdom already abiding in her own
culture's traditions. I had an experience very

47
00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:23.319
much like this recently when I was
living in Oxford and I attended an Anglican

48
00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:28.879
church after many years of avoiding Christian
churches altogether. As I've said previously on

49
00:05:28.920 --> 00:05:31.680
the podcast, I grew up in
a Christian church and in a Christian cultural

50
00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:38.480
environment. However, today I identify
as a practitioner of the Shaivashakta Darshana,

51
00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:43.319
which means that I both engage the
practices of this tradition as well as seek

52
00:05:43.399 --> 00:05:48.560
to understand reality according to its nondual
ontology. Shivashactism, or what is often

53
00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:55.600
called nondual tntra, is a tradition
that sees everything as divine. According to

54
00:05:55.639 --> 00:06:00.439
this view, every object, every
experience, and every mode of perception is

55
00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:06.839
equally pregnant with the possibility of being
perceived through a lens of divine consciousness.

56
00:06:08.600 --> 00:06:12.839
If we accept this as true,
that everything is divine, then it logically

57
00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:18.560
follows that every religious context is also
capable of being experienced from that perspective of

58
00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:25.319
wisdom, beyond the dogmas and the
doctrines that might otherwise be being taught by

59
00:06:25.319 --> 00:06:29.560
some preacher in a pulpit. In
this Anglican church, which was a part

60
00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:32.319
of my college at Oxford, and
which I visited on a number of occasions

61
00:06:32.360 --> 00:06:38.040
while I was studying there, I
suddenly was able to experience the service as

62
00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:42.759
a kind of portal of ritual beauty. I perceived it as a channel that

63
00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:46.839
I could attune to as one mode
an expression among many, of accessing,

64
00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:53.600
imbibing, and embodying that sacred substance
of which we are all apart. Now

65
00:06:53.639 --> 00:06:57.560
I'm not saying that I became a
Christian again. What I'm saying is that,

66
00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:01.279
like Athena, my own yogic Sodona
allowed me to see the ritual structure

67
00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:05.319
of this church with new eyes.
To be a Christian is, in my

68
00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:12.680
experience, to ascribe to a worldview
that is presently alienated from spiritual experience by

69
00:07:12.759 --> 00:07:17.120
teaching its followers that they are sinners
who are ontologically cut off from the experience

70
00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:21.839
of heaven until death, and at
death, one had better believe the right

71
00:07:21.959 --> 00:07:27.639
things in order to make it through
those massive pearly gates. In so far

72
00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:32.079
as heaven and hell vocabulary has any
place in Shaivashakta Tantra, one could say

73
00:07:32.120 --> 00:07:36.399
that heaven and Hell are both places
on earth, and whether or not we

74
00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:42.759
live in one realm or another during
our lifetimes is contingent on the degree to

75
00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:48.399
which we have cultivated and clarified our
faculties of perception. We experience something like

76
00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:55.279
what Christians call heaven when we have
created the conditions for the possibility of seeing

77
00:07:55.399 --> 00:08:01.959
and witnessing the divine reality as equally
present in absolutely now. I've been told

78
00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:07.560
by friends who identify with a much
more nuanced, open minded compassionate or mystical

79
00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:11.240
approach to Christianity, that my critiques
of it are really more critiques of a

80
00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:16.319
certain brand of fundamentalist Christianity, and
that seems more or less correct. In

81
00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:20.319
some sense. I am arguing with
what could be called a straw man picture

82
00:08:20.439 --> 00:08:24.959
of Christianity, one that is easily
criticized, but which doesn't take the whole

83
00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:28.759
tradition into view. So I do
accept that there's more to say on the

84
00:08:28.759 --> 00:08:35.200
subject. But because I and I
know countless others have experienced the negative effects

85
00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:39.279
of this brand of Christianity, I
feel like it's safe to criticize it on

86
00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:43.840
the basis of the harm that any
fundamentalist religion does to the spiritual imagination of

87
00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:48.639
its adherents. My attachment to the
Shiveshaktra tradition is not based on a sense

88
00:08:48.679 --> 00:08:52.879
that it is religiously correct, although
I do think that its philosophy and what

89
00:08:52.919 --> 00:08:58.279
I call its performative metaphysics provide a
much more realistic picture of what the adventure

90
00:08:58.360 --> 00:09:03.320
of meaning and fulfillment looks like.
But really I follow this path not because

91
00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:07.559
it is dogmatically better, but because
I am hard attracted to it, just

92
00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:13.600
like Athena is hard attracted to Hellenism. I am drawn to the beauty of

93
00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:18.759
Shaivishakta Tantra and the elegance of its
sophisticated traditions of thought. I am inspired

94
00:09:18.799 --> 00:09:24.840
by the infinite unfolding of wisdom and
meaning that it teaches. I am empowered

95
00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:28.799
by its modes of self inquiry.
And in so far as someone can extract

96
00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:35.159
the same kind of meaningfulness and inspiration
from Christianity or Islam or Judaism or some

97
00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:41.080
modern brand of SBNR which is the
acronym for spiritual but not religious, or

98
00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:45.120
in Athena's case, Hellenism, then
I think we're all on the right track.

99
00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:50.559
But some questions that I've been reflecting
on, is our understanding of a

100
00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:56.559
spiritual tradition we ascribe to opening us
up or closing us off from the vast

101
00:09:56.639 --> 00:10:01.320
terrain of spiritual experiences. Are we
hard into a kind of dogma, concerned

102
00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:07.960
about having the right philosophy, or
are we pursuing the horizon of meaningfulness that

103
00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:13.360
ultimately fulfills every human being? To
take another angle on this, has our

104
00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:20.360
political ideology contracted into something that dehumanizes
a segment or segments of the population.

105
00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:24.480
Does our view of what is and
is not scientific operate as a kind of

106
00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:31.879
religious dogma that shuts us off from
experimenting with other modes of seeing, perceiving,

107
00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:37.639
or experiencing the world around us.
Do our identities become straight jackets,

108
00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:43.960
condemning us to deterministic views of human, psychological or social pathology, or are

109
00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:48.440
they liberating lenses through which we expand
our view of spiritual and contemplative potential.

110
00:10:50.200 --> 00:10:54.679
The common denominator I think of all
these questions is what I'll call the specter

111
00:10:54.879 --> 00:11:00.360
of fundamentalism. Every system of thinking, whether it's religious, spiritual, medical,

112
00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:05.279
or psychological, has the ability to
harden into a kind of fundamentalism or

113
00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:09.480
dogma, and fundamentalism is, in
my view, a deadening pattern of thought.

114
00:11:11.159 --> 00:11:15.919
It cuts us off from the wellspring
of imagination, intuition, and creativity

115
00:11:16.279 --> 00:11:22.759
that animates the subtle dimensions of our
deepest being. It distorts and disenfranchises those

116
00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:28.639
experienced exceptions to the rule that cannot
be reconciled with the ideas that a fundamentalism

117
00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:37.000
holds as sacrosanct. And ultimately,
it delegitimizes the powerful moments of insight encountered

118
00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:41.639
through spiritual experience and contemplative practices,
and, as the late great composer Stephen

119
00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:46.440
Sondheim wrote on the Lips of the
Witch and into the Woods, these insights

120
00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:52.039
give us more to see. We
want to see more of reality clearly beyond

121
00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:58.200
the obscurations of ignorance. So with
these opening thoughts, I'll segue now into

122
00:11:58.279 --> 00:12:01.360
my interview with Athena Potar. Sorry. Athena is a very good friend of

123
00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:05.919
mine that I have known for nearly
twenty years. She is a friend who

124
00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:11.240
has continuously inspired my own spiritual journey
ever since we were students in political theory

125
00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:15.879
together at the London School of Economics. She and I have walked parallel paths,

126
00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:22.279
straddling scholarly and spiritual pursuits in a
shared commitment to contemplative insight. I

127
00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:26.159
deeply respect Athena, and I hope
you'll get as much out of this episode

128
00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:31.000
as I received conducting it. I'll
make a small disclaimer that this conversation was

129
00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:37.440
actually recorded two years ago, and
I lost the audio file that my voice

130
00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:41.200
was recorded on, so I sound
a little distant in the episode, although

131
00:12:41.240 --> 00:12:45.360
I've tried to clean it up to
make my voice a little louder. But

132
00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:48.200
the real wisdom in this episode is
of course coming from Athena, and you

133
00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:52.000
can hear her very clearly. But
I just wanted to offer my apologies for

134
00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:56.600
this less than perfect audio experience before
we begin. As you know, this

135
00:12:56.679 --> 00:13:03.240
podcast is completely free and with changes
at Embodied Philosophy recently, I'm trying to

136
00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:07.600
dedicate more of my time to developing
this podcast again after a few years of

137
00:13:07.639 --> 00:13:11.039
it being somewhat less of a priority. It takes a lot of time and

138
00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:15.679
dedication to produce every episode, a
lot of time reading books and preparing for

139
00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:18.600
the conversations that I have, and
now this new element of writing some opening

140
00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:24.360
thoughts. If you are a devoted
Chitthead's listener or you feel inspired to support

141
00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:28.039
this work in any way, we
have a new donation site at buy me

142
00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:33.399
a Coffee dot com forward slash chittheads. That's buy me a Coffee, just

143
00:13:33.440 --> 00:13:37.440
like it sounds, buy me a
Coffee dot com forward slash chittheads. You

144
00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:41.399
can support the podcast with a donation
as small as five dollars, which,

145
00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:46.360
as the website implies, is about
the cost of a coffee, although I

146
00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:48.320
have the site set up to say
that you're buying me a book, which

147
00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:52.759
seems to fit the subject matter a
bit better than a coffee, although I

148
00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:56.879
do love drinking coffee when I'm conducting
interviews. Any small support that you can

149
00:13:56.919 --> 00:14:01.559
offer is obviously deeply appreciated, So
again, if you feel inspired to help

150
00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:07.759
out, please consider donating to the
Chittheads project at buymeocoffee dot com forward slash

151
00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:11.120
chittheads. For anyone who donates fifty
dollars or more, I will mention you

152
00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:16.159
in a future episode as a much
admired patron of the podcast. Lastly,

153
00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:22.200
we have a new YouTube channel.
Just go to YouTube and type at chittheads

154
00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:24.960
into the search bar and it should
come up again. That's the at sign

155
00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:30.440
Chittheads, and hopefully you'll find us. We're investing a lot of time and

156
00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:35.480
energy into making this podcast more visually
appealing through better video and audio quality,

157
00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:39.879
and there will be other unique offerings
available there soon, so please do subscribe

158
00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:43.240
and comment on a video if you
have any thoughts. So, without any

159
00:14:43.240 --> 00:15:00.440
further ado, let's get into today's
interview with Athena Batari Asoma. Hello,

160
00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:05.399
everyone, and welcome back to the
Chidheads podcast. My guest today is a

161
00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:09.919
very special guest, Athena Puttari She's
very special because I've been friends with her

162
00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:16.720
for how many years? Fourteen fourteen
something like that, a long time.

163
00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:22.440
We met in two thousand and six
or seven, and we went to grad

164
00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:26.320
school together at the London School of
Economics, and I have to say Athena

165
00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:33.600
was at the time and still to
this day, was incredibly important person in

166
00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:39.399
my own life as an evolving kind
of intellectual and thinker. And we shared

167
00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:45.879
a lot of the same passions for
philosophy and have had many, many,

168
00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:52.519
really fascinating, stimulating conversations over the
years about the possibilities of philosophy, the

169
00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:58.120
possibilities of integrating philosophy with embodiment,
the esoteric, the mystical. So many

170
00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:04.720
spiritual dimensions of understanding have we explored
together, And so it has been a

171
00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:10.080
long time plan to get her on
the podcast and to talk to her about

172
00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:15.840
her really fascinating work in this intersection, or rather a reimagining one might say,

173
00:16:15.879 --> 00:16:22.159
of, or a reclaiming even of
the Hellenic tradition. Hellenism is a

174
00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:29.320
topic that we're going to talk extensively
about today because Athena has a very interesting

175
00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:36.960
and radical reappraisal, reclaiming, reimagining
of the Hellenic tradition in a way that

176
00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:41.080
sees it as a spiritual path,
and I personally think that it's an incredible

177
00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:48.080
asset to the wisdom community. Of
course, there are many different types of

178
00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:52.600
wisdom community, but if we can
speak of a larger wisdom community, oftentimes

179
00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:59.440
what is lost is really rigorous understandings
of the way in which we have these

180
00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:07.079
sots mystical traditions in the Western canon
and especially in the ancient Greeks. So

181
00:17:07.160 --> 00:17:11.440
I'm delighted to speak to Athena about
that today. So Hello Athena, thank

182
00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:14.759
you so much for joining me.
Hello Jacob, thank you so much for

183
00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:18.079
inviting me. So let's go back
to the beginning. What do you do

184
00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:25.160
you remember sort of that first kindling
that set you on this path and of

185
00:17:26.119 --> 00:17:29.880
opening up your mind first to philosophy, but now to the more kind of

186
00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:37.079
esoteric mystical dimensions of understanding. My
first philosophical questioning begun at a very very

187
00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:41.079
young age. I remember I was
four years old and I was pondering on

188
00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:47.720
the concept of death actually, and
I remember myself as a child having this

189
00:17:48.519 --> 00:17:53.559
in it for disposition to philosophy,
spending hours alone meditating thinking of course,

190
00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:57.880
playing but also reading a lot of
books. And then I think it was

191
00:17:57.960 --> 00:18:06.839
sometime around the age of fourteen that
I happened to meet Plato in one of

192
00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:11.440
the textbooks at school. We were
going through I think some ancient Greek grammar

193
00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:17.440
or something like that of that sort
at school, and I bumped onto Plato's

194
00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:23.519
work and Plato as a philosopher and
his ideas, and I felt completely fascinated.

195
00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:26.759
I went up to my school teacher
and said, I want to know

196
00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:30.440
more. What is it about Plato. I want to read his ideas.

197
00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:34.319
I want to read his books,
and Flank got that teacher got me a

198
00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:38.960
few Platonic dialogues and introduction to Platonic
philosophy, and I really remember that day,

199
00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:45.200
sitting in front of the fireplace actually
in our living room. It was

200
00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:49.599
winter, and I started reading about
Plato's ideas, plato philosophy, Platonic philosophy,

201
00:18:51.200 --> 00:19:02.680
and I literally lost touch with time
space. I felt completely tapping into

202
00:19:03.559 --> 00:19:07.240
a new kind of reality. I
was literally like, I don't know if

203
00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:11.279
it was a form of samadi or
something, but seriously everything stopped and I

204
00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:15.759
was this immersion into light. And
then when I in a way came back

205
00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:21.039
from that, I was, I
was activated. I said, this is

206
00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:22.839
why I'm born, this is why
I'm here, this is what I do

207
00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:29.240
for the rest of my life.
So it so began. Yeah, so

208
00:19:29.319 --> 00:19:32.680
speak a little bit about I mean, because as I mentioned, you know,

209
00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:37.599
and I consider you a kind of
soul sister, and that's always how

210
00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:42.559
I speak about you to other people
when I'm Yeah, it's about a really

211
00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:47.960
important relationship in my life because whenever
I'm with you, it's kind of like

212
00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:52.640
it helps to rekindle and remember,
you know, what we're here to do.

213
00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:56.599
And I think we both share this
desire to wake up. And that

214
00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:02.000
desire to wake up has has been
channeled in different ways and and for you

215
00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:06.759
as well as for me, it
has also had it has played you know,

216
00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:10.720
different sort of games, and one
of them has been academia. I

217
00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:15.279
mean, you have a PhD from
Oxford University, which it doesn't get more

218
00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:19.279
you know, rigorous than that.
So one of the reasons why I think,

219
00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:26.359
you know, we connected so early
as friends or in that initial environment

220
00:20:26.440 --> 00:20:30.799
at the LC was was that we
were we both shared this desire to wake

221
00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:37.200
up, like we had this like
leaning toward the mystical, even though we

222
00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:40.960
didn't understand it to be that at
the time, and you know, we

223
00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:42.839
were yearning for a spiritual solution,
right if we could go back to those

224
00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:48.799
initial conversations about political theory, about
the post structuralist philosophers who we were really

225
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:53.119
geeking out at the time, And
I think, don't you think that part

226
00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:57.200
of that was because you know,
especially in the writing, like you were

227
00:20:57.240 --> 00:21:00.960
really into dere Da, I was
into like but Do and all these French

228
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:07.039
thinkers, that there was this kind
of literary poetry that was almost mystical about

229
00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:11.119
it, and so it satiated this
kind of desire that we had for something

230
00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:17.440
deeper that we weren't necessarily finding in
kind of the other some of the classes

231
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:19.119
that we were that we were taking
kind of in political theory at the time.

232
00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:25.240
So what do you think about that? What do you think about the

233
00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:30.960
way in which academia has appealed to
you and to me, it's appealed to

234
00:21:32.039 --> 00:21:37.920
that desire for some sort of truth
or mystical attainment or spiritual knowledge. After

235
00:21:37.960 --> 00:21:45.839
reading Plato, I was quite set
on the idea that I'm joining university to

236
00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:55.960
achieve union with higher ideas and an
awakening and basically unity, realizing the unity

237
00:21:55.960 --> 00:21:59.440
of all being. And actually,
sometimes I go back to my vacation so

238
00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:02.960
university, and I was actually writing
that in the personal statements, that personal

239
00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:07.759
statements were quite mystical somehow. Yes, because reading Plato and reading the Hellenic

240
00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:11.640
tradition to philosophy at an early age, I thought that, hey, philosophy

241
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:17.759
is about what the ancients say.
It's about, which is awakening, which

242
00:22:17.799 --> 00:22:25.160
is realizing yourself at a higher level
of humanity, achieving spiritual freedom, virtue,

243
00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:29.799
a holistic view of life. And
I thought that that's exactly how they

244
00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:33.119
would be taught at modern universities as
they were taught in ancient academies. And

245
00:22:33.160 --> 00:22:37.960
apparently I was wrong. So going
to university encountered a very different reality.

246
00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:44.640
And I mean meeting you later at
the master's level, when we're studying at

247
00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:48.279
the LC. It was a point
that I had already felt quite fed up

248
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:55.720
with the way knowledge was approached at
universities at the undergraduate level, and I

249
00:22:55.799 --> 00:23:00.799
was hoping that focusing more on political
philosophy political theory at the master's would start

250
00:23:00.359 --> 00:23:07.200
feeding that deep need ad to realize
deeper dimensions of our spirit as human beings.

251
00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:12.440
Nowadays, at universities. It happens
at a lot of universities that this

252
00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:18.880
richness of spirit of the human being
is not closely examined, it's not fulfilled,

253
00:23:18.279 --> 00:23:25.640
and a lot of approaches to philosophy
have become about this armchair argumentation,

254
00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:33.119
polemics, analysis of concepts, and
of the history of ideas, rather than

255
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:40.799
engaging the personal transformation of the spirit
of the actual, lived and embodied aspects

256
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:45.200
of philosophy that can satisfy it.
As we're discussing the other day, the

257
00:23:45.319 --> 00:23:52.920
deepest need of our human nature,
which is to realize deep and lasting happiness

258
00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:57.720
and freedom. That is what we
all seek, deep happiness. In older

259
00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:04.680
times, education we deliver precisely that
teleologists. We say in philosophy that goal

260
00:24:06.359 --> 00:24:11.039
and that that natural striving that we
have as human beings, which is this

261
00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:17.519
wholeness. And nowadays at the university
is this not the goal happiness? It's

262
00:24:17.559 --> 00:24:22.440
not really what we're being taught.
So what do you think we are being

263
00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:26.599
taught? Like if we could boil
it down to a simple set of axioms,

264
00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:32.519
that kind of the current state of
education is generally geared toward. What

265
00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:34.920
do you what do you think that
kind of teleology is if it's not kind

266
00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:40.039
of happiness or fulfillment in some way, what is it? Sharp mind,

267
00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:44.079
but at the level of the argumentative
mind, not at the level of the

268
00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:52.720
wisdom mind. A sharp argumentative mind
shaped in a way that can fulfill a

269
00:24:52.839 --> 00:24:59.119
job or a social function. So
we're I mean, where we studied,

270
00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:04.920
great part of the education was becoming
useful as we would be placed in a

271
00:25:04.920 --> 00:25:12.319
particular employment in society. It wasn't
about realizing our tur nature, finding freedom,

272
00:25:12.440 --> 00:25:18.960
or finding happiness. But Plato defines
and the entire Helen conradition and so

273
00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:27.359
many other civilizations and wisdom traditions define
the goal of education precisely as those things

274
00:25:27.400 --> 00:25:32.039
that we all human beings seek.
And when I met you, we were

275
00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:37.720
clearly very thirsty for at the time, we really, we really wanted to

276
00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:41.039
tap into that mystery of being that
we felt was there, and we couldn't

277
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:45.200
find a way in. So even
you know we're taught, we're here talking

278
00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:49.400
about primarily Hellenism. I want to
get to kind of the specifics in a

279
00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:57.160
moment. But you haven't just been
kind of informed and transformed by the tradition.

280
00:25:57.240 --> 00:26:03.559
You also have been having entered various
teachers of you know, you know

281
00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:08.000
other contemplative traditions from India and South
Asia, and one of them I know

282
00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:11.480
that. You know, we were
talking the other day when we were island

283
00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:15.960
topping in these beautiful islands in Greece. Is you were talking about how you

284
00:26:17.160 --> 00:26:21.000
found the Autobiography of Yogi, and
I thought it would be I didn't plan

285
00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:22.480
to talk about this, but I
figured it would be kind of a nice

286
00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:29.160
moment to talk about that experience for
you and what it meant for you,

287
00:26:29.240 --> 00:26:33.440
because we are sort of just after
this centennial of the one hundred year anniversary

288
00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:38.680
of that text. So what was
you know, you speak about that as

289
00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:44.279
quite a transformative moment, the encounter
with that text. So can you say

290
00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:47.839
a little bit about what that text
gave you? Absolutely? So, we

291
00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:52.359
had finished our master's degrees at the
LC. At the time, I had

292
00:26:52.440 --> 00:27:02.240
intered abate in the Parliament and I
was introduced to Plato's Republick during our master's

293
00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:07.480
degree. I did my disertation on
that and after reading Yes, Plato's Republic,

294
00:27:07.720 --> 00:27:11.319
I felt, I felt that it
was a very big opening in my

295
00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:15.319
soul. Also, I was reading
the text from the original language from Mention

296
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:19.440
Greek, which is quite a potent
language. It's a performative language. So

297
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:25.440
already things have been had been shifting
inside of me, and I was feeling

298
00:27:25.480 --> 00:27:33.079
that through contact with this very fundamental
text of Hellenic philosophy, which is an

299
00:27:33.079 --> 00:27:38.920
annunciation. Really, it's it's annuciation
into into spirit, into and too many

300
00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:45.920
ideas that are that can be very
liberating for consciousness. There had been this,

301
00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:49.599
yeah, this this fertile space opening
up inside of me. And then

302
00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:56.200
at that time I was I finished
my time in London, and whatever I

303
00:27:56.240 --> 00:28:00.720
was doing there, i'd apply to
Oxford. I don't really member if I

304
00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:03.839
had yet been accepted or not,
but anyhow, so I turned back to

305
00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:08.319
Greece and I go do my pilmgrage
in the Greek islands, because it can

306
00:28:08.359 --> 00:28:15.519
be really and in reaching experience being
exposed to the sun, to the natural

307
00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:19.240
elements. For me, it was
my retreat time. And so as I

308
00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:26.160
was going to tell the story,
yeah yeah, So I'm traveling to these

309
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:30.359
islands and I just stop on a
big island to take the boat to hop

310
00:28:30.440 --> 00:28:34.359
on to a smaller and more isolated
island, and I go to the local

311
00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:38.680
bookshop, which actually quite beautiful just
by the sea. I had about half

312
00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:44.119
an hour to go find some books
for my summer readings, and so I

313
00:28:44.200 --> 00:28:47.920
go there. I'm around about twenty
three, twenty four years old, and

314
00:28:47.960 --> 00:28:52.440
I just go and hover over the
section of classics and Ancient Hellenic readers,

315
00:28:52.839 --> 00:28:56.079
and so I'm just reading there.
I'm just hovering. I'm trying to pick

316
00:28:56.119 --> 00:29:02.039
what I'm going to take for my
summer readings. And this this young man

317
00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:04.680
comes over and he looks at me. He's like, what are you doing

318
00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:10.079
there? And I said, I'm
just trying to pick my summer reading.

319
00:29:10.119 --> 00:29:15.119
And he said, what ancient Greek
texts? In ancient Greek fingers and philosophers?

320
00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:22.079
I said yeah, and I said, a young girl reading ancient writers.

321
00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:26.880
And I just my husband opened like
an owl's and a turnal line,

322
00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:33.400
and I said, what's the problem
with young female? A young woman reading

323
00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:37.160
ancient texts? And so we start
this conversation and he stops me. And

324
00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:40.079
by the way, he wasn't working
there, he was also visiting, and

325
00:29:40.119 --> 00:29:44.599
he says, Okay, wait a
moment, I'll be right back, and

326
00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:48.000
he goes over to some other shelves, come back and he brings me this

327
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:56.519
huge book. It was a very
old and traditional edition and said you have

328
00:29:56.680 --> 00:29:59.480
to buy this book. And I
said, what is it. He said,

329
00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:03.240
he's the autobiography with Yogi. I
had no idea what this was,

330
00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:10.440
but just the idea of a biography
didn't ring about like I was a biography,

331
00:30:10.480 --> 00:30:14.559
like I don't read biographies. And
I was like, thank you very

332
00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:17.000
much, but you know I don't
read biographies. I don't think I'm going

333
00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:18.359
to take it. He said,
no, no, no, it's not

334
00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:21.839
what you imagine it to be.
It's not like a classical biography. You

335
00:30:21.920 --> 00:30:25.799
have to take it. So we're
back and forth for like five ten minutes,

336
00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:30.319
and I'm about to lose a boat
and he was like, no,

337
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:33.839
you must take it. And I
was like, look, it's also very

338
00:30:33.880 --> 00:30:36.880
heavy, it's very expensive. I
cannot take it. And he just looks

339
00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:38.119
at me in the eyes. It
wasn't even him in that moment, and

340
00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:42.839
he says, you're not going to
make the boat unless you buy it.

341
00:30:42.880 --> 00:30:48.039
I'm just going to block the entrance. You're not leaving this bookshop if you

342
00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:51.119
don't buy this book. And I
was like, okay, I have to

343
00:30:51.160 --> 00:30:55.480
surrender into this certaintypity, and so
I bought the book, got to the

344
00:30:55.519 --> 00:30:59.640
island, started reading it, and
after two days of reading it, I

345
00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:06.119
felt that my entire life had been
flipped upside down. I read this text

346
00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:11.079
and I felt, oh my god, this is exactly what I was looking

347
00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:14.559
for, reading Dry, reading Fuco, and reading all those you know,

348
00:31:14.599 --> 00:31:18.720
postmodern thinkers. It's this is what
I was looking for, not just to

349
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:23.920
reconstruct the old, but to find
a spiritual path that is a live that

350
00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:26.759
is concrete, that is structured,
and that it is being taught in the

351
00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:33.880
present moment. And I literally like
left my friends, left everything that I

352
00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:37.880
had planned to do in those islands, and I just went to can isolated

353
00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:42.799
beach and I basically practiced meditation,
and ever since that moment, my life

354
00:31:42.920 --> 00:31:48.720
turned into a kind of asceticism.
And you were starting your PhD or your

355
00:31:48.759 --> 00:31:52.279
defail at Oxford at the time,
which you did in political theory, and

356
00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:57.640
you brought that text with you and
also your meditation practice, so you were

357
00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:07.000
integrating contemplative practice into a really intellectual
time. And I imagine that must have

358
00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:10.799
just really nourished everything that you were
doing and also probably grounded and saved you,

359
00:32:10.839 --> 00:32:16.160
because doing a defil can be quite
difficult, right, Like, what

360
00:32:16.279 --> 00:32:21.160
was that I mean, one of
the things I've always admired about you is

361
00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:27.920
your ability to kind of see the
magic in all places that you spend your

362
00:32:27.920 --> 00:32:30.960
time. I mean, obviously you
have a real heart and soul connection to

363
00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:37.279
Greece for obvious reasons. And then
you also had this, you know,

364
00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:43.119
when I was considering going to Oxford, you had this real, almost mystical

365
00:32:43.240 --> 00:32:46.400
perception of that place. What was
it that you Do you think that what

366
00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:52.480
you saw and experience there was a
result of the deep practice that you were

367
00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:55.240
doing at the time, or do
you think this is something in the something

368
00:32:55.240 --> 00:33:00.319
that there's something special about the kind
of field in Oxford? Was that informed

369
00:33:00.359 --> 00:33:07.200
that perspective? Well, in my
experience, Oxford is a very special place.

370
00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:14.480
It has a very healing energy and
a very very unique ambience. Partly

371
00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:17.440
that is owned to the fact that
so many people go there and spend so

372
00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:22.880
much intellectual energy. So once you
tap into that field of Oxford, you

373
00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:28.759
tap into this kind of network of
ideas and an etheric level. But apart

374
00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:34.440
from that, Oxford, throughout the
centers of its development, has also been

375
00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:40.720
the home to many forms of mysticism. In older times, still, there

376
00:33:40.839 --> 00:33:47.160
was a union between esoteric arts and
education or academia. So Oxford has been

377
00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:52.880
the home to many sorts of theology, spiritualities, and even nowadays is a

378
00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:55.640
place. Oxfordshire is a place where
a lot of astroums, a lot of

379
00:33:55.640 --> 00:34:00.720
spiritual communities are hosted. There is
a Debtan Ashroum, Brahmakmay's Astroam, there

380
00:34:00.759 --> 00:34:07.599
is a Hindu astrom there. It
is a place that for some reason it's

381
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:15.480
conducive to healing and spiritual development.
And going there, as I had found

382
00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:23.599
that entry into spirit through Yogananda and
the Indian tradition, I found myself living

383
00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:30.400
a life of a scholar and aesthetic
at the same time. So my life

384
00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:36.880
was divided between meditating and reading,
going to the library, doing intellectual work,

385
00:34:37.960 --> 00:34:43.719
and of course the combination of those
two was particularly healing and transformative.

386
00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:47.559
I actually went to India uh one
year after I read the book, which

387
00:34:47.639 --> 00:34:55.480
was also very incredible experience. Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about

388
00:34:55.480 --> 00:35:02.280
Hellenism now, because you know,
this is of course really a fundamental feature

389
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:07.679
of your work now, and it
really is. It's so unique and important

390
00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:14.320
what you're doing, and I'm continually
fascinated by it because you know, we

391
00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:17.719
First of all, like I said
at the beginning, I see you as

392
00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:23.480
kind of, you know, reclaiming
something that has been sort of forgotten.

393
00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:30.599
Right, But there's also this sort
of innovation and imaginative reconstruction happening, but

394
00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:38.880
in a synergy of a relationship with
platonic text texts from the Greek, ancient

395
00:35:38.920 --> 00:35:45.800
Greek tradition that is imbued with a
kind of lens of spirit. Right,

396
00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:51.119
You're reading the text from a spiritual
perspective and from your you know, from

397
00:35:51.159 --> 00:35:54.280
your perspective that has always been there, but we've in some sense lost it.

398
00:35:54.360 --> 00:35:58.239
So I want to start talking about
this, but I guess maybe the

399
00:35:58.239 --> 00:36:07.519
first question would be what is Hellenism? Okay, So I think sometimes the

400
00:36:07.079 --> 00:36:14.199
word or the term Hellenism is conflated
with the Hellenistic period, which is a

401
00:36:14.239 --> 00:36:22.000
period basically after Alexander the Great,
so going to the last centuries BC.

402
00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:29.440
So Hellenism does not really refer to
that. It refers to a worldview.

403
00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:39.719
I would define Hellenism as a way
of viewing, experiencing, and living in

404
00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:50.559
the world which is guided and enlightened
by certain fundamental principles. And those principles

405
00:36:50.599 --> 00:37:00.239
are that Heraclita said, articulated in
a way, the one manifesting all and

406
00:37:00.440 --> 00:37:09.079
all is one. From that oneness
arises consciousness, and from that consciousness arises

407
00:37:09.159 --> 00:37:17.400
soul, and from soul all that
continuation of the One appears as matter.

408
00:37:19.079 --> 00:37:27.239
And therefore there is no duality between
consciousness and matter, but really a continuum

409
00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:36.159
that once you realize the essence of
that continuum and relationship, you realize that

410
00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:44.480
there is a holistic synergy between matter, appearances and the laws that govern those

411
00:37:44.519 --> 00:37:52.760
appearances, and spirit spiritual laws and
the principles that govern that layer and level

412
00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:59.280
of reality. Along with that comes
the understanding of what a human being is,

413
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:02.639
which I know that may sound a
bit you know, too well known

414
00:38:02.760 --> 00:38:07.360
or too conventional, but it's definitely
the idea. For example, Patholgoras had

415
00:38:07.400 --> 00:38:14.920
that we are divinity itself, we're
divine manifestations. We're divine souls that will

416
00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:20.199
call psychees really see heat. Having
a human experience, which is something like

417
00:38:20.239 --> 00:38:23.159
a dream. It is something like
we're dreaming this experience, and once we

418
00:38:23.199 --> 00:38:29.760
wake up, says he Eclittus,
we realize that our log was the consciousness

419
00:38:29.800 --> 00:38:36.840
through which we were perceiving even our
material experience and our personhood is one and

420
00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:39.760
common and the same, and that's
what we really are. We are this

421
00:38:40.519 --> 00:38:47.360
consciousness, wisdom, We are this
unitary essence having a human experience and not

422
00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:54.559
the other way around. And therefore, finally that translates into a certain way

423
00:38:54.599 --> 00:39:02.679
of being in the world as an
embodied human being manifests into ethical principles,

424
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:08.039
not in the sense of morality.
With ethics doesn't mean morality. Ethics really

425
00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:15.559
means habits of energy. Energetic habits
or habits of consciousness is what ethics means.

426
00:39:15.559 --> 00:39:22.320
Comes from the word ethos ethos,
which really means habit, habit in

427
00:39:22.360 --> 00:39:25.119
the way the energy. I could
do the etymology as a point if you

428
00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:30.239
want in the way the energy of
the of your being or of your soul

429
00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:37.440
moves, and so virtue to live, to be, to live a virtues

430
00:39:37.559 --> 00:39:43.639
life, something which is so central
to even the Greek literature, Greek philosophy

431
00:39:43.880 --> 00:39:49.800
and generally authors of of of that
tradition. Doesn't mean to abide by a

432
00:39:49.800 --> 00:39:59.239
certain set of rules of morality.
Peto actually did defines it as easy lownness

433
00:39:59.239 --> 00:40:02.800
of soul. So when your energy, your subtle bodies right, we would

434
00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:07.079
say, can move in such a
way that you feel, no obscuration,

435
00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:12.280
no obstacle, You're in the flow
state. This is what virtue is a

436
00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:16.320
non virtue. Again, if we
take the original etymology of the term,

437
00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:22.079
it means anything that obstructs the free
flow of your being, of your soul,

438
00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:29.519
beat, a mental state, a
desire, a psychological emotional state.

439
00:40:29.639 --> 00:40:37.079
Whatever obstructs is free flow. And
therefore the liberty, the liberation of the

440
00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:44.000
energy of our soul is non virtues. Okay, So the ethical part that's

441
00:40:44.119 --> 00:40:53.400
very important tradition can be explained just
in terms of energy, slow movement and

442
00:40:53.480 --> 00:40:59.880
that. And I think that's the
final point that then culminates into what we

443
00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:02.960
the political life, because politics is
very important for Hellenism. That's what we

444
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:09.880
study right in our political philosophy classes. And what is so interesting about tradition

445
00:41:10.239 --> 00:41:16.119
is that it's an integral power part
of spirituality. There is no Hellenic spirituality,

446
00:41:16.280 --> 00:41:21.599
be it in Pythagoras, in Clayton, in Neoplatonists. That doesn't include

447
00:41:21.880 --> 00:41:28.840
the political dimension. Why because being
is inherently political. Why because it manifests

448
00:41:28.840 --> 00:41:35.280
in polar in many, the one
is infernently political because it appears as polar

449
00:41:35.360 --> 00:41:39.760
as many polar being the term of
one of the terms or of politics,

450
00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:45.960
and there for the way that we
relate to one another, the way we

451
00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:52.280
create the community of humanity and human
beings is an inherent aspect of the expression

452
00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:58.880
of the one being into this mystery
that we call life. That's so beautiful.

453
00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:05.519
I love that. So you really
kind of have expressed like the heart

454
00:42:05.840 --> 00:42:10.800
of kind of the Hellenic worldview in
this really beautiful way. What is you

455
00:42:10.840 --> 00:42:14.039
know, and your speak you've already
speaked spoken a little bit to it.

456
00:42:14.079 --> 00:42:20.880
But I'm curious about how this worldview
shapes a new or informs a new understanding

457
00:42:20.920 --> 00:42:23.840
of education, right, because this
is something also that we're very you and

458
00:42:23.920 --> 00:42:30.199
I are similarly passionate about about new
pedagogies, new sort of structures of education,

459
00:42:30.400 --> 00:42:39.280
new ways of reimagining the educational process, you know, to enrich and

460
00:42:39.559 --> 00:42:44.000
expand upon, you know, the
existing educational structures that we already have in

461
00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:50.360
the world. So what does this
new Hellenic worldview, or rather this reimagined

462
00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:57.360
or reclaimed Hellenic worldview say is necessary
to like a more holistic or or or

463
00:42:57.480 --> 00:43:04.679
whole educational process. So I'll just
begin from the use of the term reclaiming,

464
00:43:04.920 --> 00:43:15.400
reimagining Hellenism is a holistic worldview which
has as its goal the awakening or

465
00:43:15.400 --> 00:43:20.440
how the insinance would say, the
you demonia of the human being, which

466
00:43:20.480 --> 00:43:25.599
is the realization of ourselves, the
realization of our nature is to find you

467
00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:30.199
demonia. You demonia is not happiness
exactly because it has the word F,

468
00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:36.920
which is kind of the tao or
the good as one of its main components.

469
00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:42.920
And then dumonia comes from demon,
which has nothing to do with the

470
00:43:42.920 --> 00:43:47.599
modern use of the term. It
literally means spirit. So it's the realization

471
00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:52.800
of ourselves as the spirit of oneness
or the spirit of the ultimate good,

472
00:43:53.000 --> 00:43:57.519
or in other traditions you would call
it tao. I don't know how you

473
00:43:57.519 --> 00:44:04.239
would call it in in Hinduistic philosophy, I think they have something similar like

474
00:44:04.280 --> 00:44:09.400
atman right or something like that.
Yeah, the Shiva nature exactly, the

475
00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:14.039
divine pure nature, as I say
in Buddhism, that's what the term F

476
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:17.320
means. So the goal of philosophy, which is the same as the goal

477
00:44:17.599 --> 00:44:24.199
of or the end towards which our
humanity is moving, is self realization,

478
00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:31.119
as is deep wholeness that can only
manifest from coming in contact with the divine

479
00:44:31.159 --> 00:44:37.599
pure nature. That we are,
and so Helenism is essentially a wisdom,

480
00:44:38.239 --> 00:44:45.719
or we can say anachronistically, a
spiritual tradition. Now, what happened to

481
00:44:45.800 --> 00:44:51.679
that tradition was that because of how
old it was, because of all the

482
00:44:51.679 --> 00:44:55.800
different social political factors and events that
happen, all the changes and shifts that

483
00:44:55.840 --> 00:44:59.199
happen in the enesty in the world, the catastrophe is the wars, and

484
00:44:59.199 --> 00:45:06.760
so forth. The lineage, yes, I can't say broken in yes,

485
00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:10.480
it's been broken, and yet not
broken, because what can break the continuation

486
00:45:10.599 --> 00:45:15.360
of spirit, right, nothing,
But on a manifest level, the lineage

487
00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:20.800
had been lost. I don't know
if you'd like to include that. But

488
00:45:21.159 --> 00:45:29.039
historically speaking, there was a particular
law that passed during the sixth century AD

489
00:45:29.360 --> 00:45:36.840
where Hellenism, philosophy, mathematics,
the teaching of education, and the practice

490
00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:42.519
of pagan religion were all prohibited by
law, the penalty being death. So

491
00:45:43.440 --> 00:45:49.920
the neo Platonic school, actually the
Platonic school, the Platonic lineage, which

492
00:45:49.960 --> 00:45:54.480
began from Pythagoras, was active all
the way from sixth century BC to sixth

493
00:45:54.480 --> 00:46:00.519
century AD, and with this decree
from the bison and emperor at the time,

494
00:46:00.639 --> 00:46:06.639
Christian emperor at the time being issued
the philosophers, with the last scholar

495
00:46:06.760 --> 00:46:13.159
of the Platonic School being Damascus,
had to flee to Egypt and hide because

496
00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:20.800
if they dared to continue practice dialectics, philosophy, mathematics and basically all that

497
00:46:20.960 --> 00:46:24.920
the Platonic curriculum included, they would
be sentenced to death. And from then

498
00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:31.960
onwards we lose the traces of what
happened to the lineage didn't continue, of

499
00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:37.840
course it did in all sorts of
forms. Then we have the alchemical schools,

500
00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:42.079
we have the lodges, you know, but it had to go underground,

501
00:46:40.679 --> 00:46:49.400
it had to hide, leading us
to nowadays where the direct lineage continuation

502
00:46:49.960 --> 00:46:53.840
has been lost. Yet the spirit
of Hellenism and that tradition can never be

503
00:46:53.960 --> 00:47:01.280
lost, like any true and authentic
lineage. What's been happening in the past

504
00:47:01.960 --> 00:47:10.960
a few centuries was that in griefs
there have been teachers reviving, rekindling that

505
00:47:12.119 --> 00:47:16.480
flame of the Hellenic view and the
Hellenic practices. Because philosophy is not about

506
00:47:16.760 --> 00:47:23.639
understanding or reading or writing or argumenting. It's about practicing also with body,

507
00:47:23.800 --> 00:47:29.840
with soul, with everyday life,
with meditation, so that you can ripen

508
00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:34.639
into that wisdom, opening, that
awakening which transcends intellect in the mind.

509
00:47:35.199 --> 00:47:39.960
Philosophy is not an intellectual endeavor.
The very word means love and wisdom or

510
00:47:40.039 --> 00:47:45.920
love philotis philo for wisdom. Okay, So where is the mind in that?

511
00:47:45.400 --> 00:47:52.599
Let me tell you nowhere only the
initial steps. Even Socrates talks about

512
00:47:52.639 --> 00:47:57.400
this plotimeists as we were reading.
You have to let go of the mind

513
00:47:57.519 --> 00:48:04.159
after a certain point. You train
the mind enough through philosophy and the different

514
00:48:04.239 --> 00:48:09.519
layers of initiation into philosophy, so
they can be ready to let go into

515
00:48:09.559 --> 00:48:15.960
that which transcends it, into that
which contains it. And so in the

516
00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:25.000
past couple of centuries, more and
more teachers would appear in local forums that

517
00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:31.760
would revive that deeper esoteric mystical which
I don't even like to call it that

518
00:48:31.800 --> 00:48:36.400
way. It's not, it's not
really mystical, it's not even deeper.

519
00:48:36.440 --> 00:48:42.960
It's the original meaning of what philosophy
is according to the definitions of its representatives.

520
00:48:45.039 --> 00:48:52.920
And so here were today, fast
forward twenty twenty two AD, having

521
00:48:52.239 --> 00:49:01.039
more and more interesting local groups in
Greece about walking the path through our original

522
00:49:01.320 --> 00:49:08.519
or can I say indigenous it's indigenous, our indigenous path. So my experience

523
00:49:08.519 --> 00:49:15.760
has been that going to the East, going to India and practicing with meditations

524
00:49:15.800 --> 00:49:23.000
from the East cleansed enough mine,
enough obscurations, let's say, enough karma,

525
00:49:23.519 --> 00:49:28.920
Okay, enough subtle body, so
that when I went back to read

526
00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:35.320
Plato, I read Plato with new
eyes, and I realized that everything I

527
00:49:35.440 --> 00:49:40.880
was reading in Hindu text in Buddhist
texts in the tow it was right there

528
00:49:40.920 --> 00:49:46.199
in front of me in my own
original tradition, the one that had spurred

529
00:49:46.639 --> 00:49:51.840
the love for truth in the first
place, when I was just a young

530
00:49:51.960 --> 00:49:57.760
child. And so what happened with
this activation from the East was that it

531
00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:02.480
cleared the mind and the energy in
the soul space. For me, that

532
00:50:02.559 --> 00:50:08.280
was my personal experience to be ready
to realize that everything I need is already

533
00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:17.280
in the text and basically devote my
life to teaching philosophy that way, practicing

534
00:50:17.320 --> 00:50:22.400
helen philosophy that way, and then
also finding all those little hidden practices that

535
00:50:22.440 --> 00:50:28.079
the engines have put into the text, and then of course not only reviving

536
00:50:28.119 --> 00:50:31.679
them, not only reactivating them as
they are, but of course reimagining them.

537
00:50:31.679 --> 00:50:36.880
Because a lot is missing, a
lot has been lost in the burning

538
00:50:36.920 --> 00:50:43.599
of old libraries and so forth,
so finding new ways of bringing those ancient

539
00:50:44.280 --> 00:50:49.079
practices and that engine spirit into the
present to fit the modern person, and

540
00:50:49.079 --> 00:50:53.880
not just the modern Greek person,
the consciousness as it is in this particular

541
00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:59.039
moment in eternity that we call time. One of the things I said earlier

542
00:50:59.239 --> 00:51:06.239
regarding how important I think this work
is relates to again, like you said,

543
00:51:06.440 --> 00:51:12.880
this reclaiming, this connection, reconnection, remembering of one's own kind of

544
00:51:13.199 --> 00:51:20.039
indigenous wisdom. And even though you
know, non Greek European, you know,

545
00:51:20.239 --> 00:51:22.920
even though other people in Europe and
in the kind of what we call

546
00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:27.679
the Western world don't you know,
speak Greek, or this isn't exactly our

547
00:51:27.719 --> 00:51:31.360
indigenous heritage, there's still right,
there's been this ongoing historical narrative that connects

548
00:51:31.360 --> 00:51:35.760
Assault to ancient Greek that is sort
of the you know, for better or

549
00:51:35.800 --> 00:51:40.000
worse, you know, there are
arguments that it's that it's problematic in various

550
00:51:40.079 --> 00:51:45.000
ways, but for better or worse, we've all been connected historically to ancient

551
00:51:45.039 --> 00:51:51.239
Greece, and so there does seem, even for people who were not born

552
00:51:51.239 --> 00:51:58.719
in Greece, a really exciting aliveness
to connecting us to a sense of our

553
00:51:58.760 --> 00:52:04.280
own or the origins of Western culture, origins of European culture, that that

554
00:52:04.599 --> 00:52:07.119
you know is alive with this kind
of I like that you say. It's

555
00:52:07.119 --> 00:52:14.920
not just mystical, it's just it's
sort of the truth. And and but

556
00:52:15.039 --> 00:52:20.719
you know, you remarked earlier about
how ancient Greek is, that there's something

557
00:52:20.719 --> 00:52:22.199
missing in translation. You and I
have been talking. Obviously, I've been

558
00:52:22.199 --> 00:52:27.320
here for what ten days now,
and we have been talking. You know,

559
00:52:27.519 --> 00:52:32.320
you often speak, you extract wisdom
from a kind of etymological, beautiful

560
00:52:32.360 --> 00:52:37.280
sort of etymological process. And you
know, not all of us. I

561
00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:42.440
don't speak ancient Greek, and I
don't speak more modern Greek, and most

562
00:52:42.440 --> 00:52:45.840
people who are listening to this podcasts
probably don't. How important is it to

563
00:52:46.519 --> 00:52:52.440
understand the language? And and if
it's not important, perhaps we should at

564
00:52:52.519 --> 00:52:55.519
least know a little bit about what
is lost in translation, so to speak.

565
00:52:55.760 --> 00:53:00.440
You already spoke a little bit about
Greek being a performative language. What

566
00:53:00.679 --> 00:53:06.360
is in these ancient languages? Uh, you know, in this instance Greek

567
00:53:06.840 --> 00:53:12.800
that is sort of there's is necessary
or is nourishing when you actually read the

568
00:53:12.800 --> 00:53:16.119
philosophy itself. What's the what's the
importance of language? I guess is the

569
00:53:16.199 --> 00:53:24.840
question. So translation is already interpretation, as we're discussing. Can you translate

570
00:53:24.880 --> 00:53:32.159
Beethoven? Can you translate music?
Nope? Yeah, So there is a

571
00:53:32.360 --> 00:53:37.639
sound, there is a music,
and there is vibe, the vibrant vibe

572
00:53:37.719 --> 00:53:42.719
exactly of language. How can you
translate that? How can you translate let's

573
00:53:42.719 --> 00:53:47.679
say, a Hindu mantra or a
Buddhist mantra. It's not translatable, as

574
00:53:47.760 --> 00:53:53.639
music is not translatable because the way
it is vibrates in a particular manner that

575
00:53:53.800 --> 00:54:01.079
invokes particular states at the level of
energy, soul, unconsciousness. And afore,

576
00:54:01.119 --> 00:54:05.679
that's why I was trying to tell
you that. I mean, I

577
00:54:05.760 --> 00:54:12.519
was making the point that so much
is lost in translation, the vibratory potential,

578
00:54:12.599 --> 00:54:15.960
love the way you put it,
the performative aspect of that vibration is

579
00:54:16.039 --> 00:54:21.880
lost. And hence why when we
read texts in their original language, for

580
00:54:21.920 --> 00:54:24.800
example, sounds crit is the same
or in ancient Greek. Is not just

581
00:54:24.880 --> 00:54:31.519
about the conceptual aspect. It's about
the energetic transformation that occurs through coming in

582
00:54:31.559 --> 00:54:36.360
contact with what is not seen behind
the letters. What is that it's a

583
00:54:36.440 --> 00:54:45.480
sound. It's the mathematics of the
syntax, and it is the weaving of

584
00:54:45.519 --> 00:54:51.519
the grammar. All that creates an
effect that the level of brain, the

585
00:54:51.639 --> 00:54:58.239
level of soul, at the level
of energy that results into suttler or more

586
00:54:58.239 --> 00:55:07.719
intense transformations in the Hellenic language.
Socrates argues in the Curtilious the words the

587
00:55:07.800 --> 00:55:19.719
letters themselves represent energetic movements of being. Their shape reflects those movements or those

588
00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:23.920
potentialities of being or energy. Their
sounds too. For example, the word

589
00:55:24.599 --> 00:55:28.519
the letter are what we say,
it has to do with the flow of

590
00:55:28.599 --> 00:55:31.880
being. Right. He has a
lot of such explanations. So then you

591
00:55:31.960 --> 00:55:37.440
add the letters altogether, and you
add on top of that algorithm of the

592
00:55:37.480 --> 00:55:43.840
Hellenic language, which is absolutely it's
brilliant, it's just divine. Then you

593
00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:51.079
create a language that in itself codifies
the normal delia. We say, so

594
00:55:51.239 --> 00:55:58.960
kind of the nomos of being.
The structure of being. Being is one

595
00:55:59.480 --> 00:56:04.679
being unitary, but at the same
time being is perfectly structured. And that's

596
00:56:04.679 --> 00:56:09.199
where Pythagora so mathematics being the language
of God himself. And he said,

597
00:56:09.320 --> 00:56:17.800
God of alshaieometry, God is a
mathematician because it's not just that being is

598
00:56:17.960 --> 00:56:24.800
one and unitarian and transcendental. No, it's also perfectly organized a structure into

599
00:56:24.840 --> 00:56:30.320
teleology, into laws, which in
other traditions call karma. There is cause,

600
00:56:30.599 --> 00:56:36.159
condition, and effect, and all
that is governed by principles and algorithms.

601
00:56:36.639 --> 00:56:39.920
And this is what I referred to
by saying the structure of being that

602
00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:45.760
is reflected in the language. So
it's a practice that we do employ a

603
00:56:45.760 --> 00:56:52.199
lot in modern Greece right now,
in those little fora that have been created

604
00:56:52.239 --> 00:56:58.119
that disseminate Hellenism as a path to
awakening. But it's a practice that also

605
00:56:58.159 --> 00:57:02.360
we find, for example in Proclues, Neoplatonic scholar who was the lineage holder

606
00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:08.760
of Plato during the fourth century idea
and an incredible thinker, an incredible mystic.

607
00:57:09.079 --> 00:57:15.039
By the way, he was performing
resurrections, according to historical texts,

608
00:57:15.079 --> 00:57:19.440
his students saying that he had this
white all around him. He was also

609
00:57:19.480 --> 00:57:22.119
performing a lot of ritual. He
was a lotto ritual, although he wouldn't

610
00:57:22.119 --> 00:57:25.960
lose at all his rigor. He's
like, he has written a completely rigorous

611
00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:31.239
theology to comment upon Plato, and
we find in his commentaries how often he

612
00:57:31.360 --> 00:57:37.840
begins to explain something by analyzing the
word and by codifying the word, opening

613
00:57:37.840 --> 00:57:44.159
it up and showing how all the
teachings around that concept have already been codified

614
00:57:44.239 --> 00:57:52.239
into the semiology of the word,
of the words used to define and approach

615
00:57:52.280 --> 00:57:54.599
the concepts and the ideas. So
that is a practice that we very much

616
00:57:54.719 --> 00:58:00.000
use. I know sometimes it can
sound a bit like watching My Big Fat

617
00:58:00.159 --> 00:58:02.199
Wedding. We take our word and
we say, this comes from Greek.

618
00:58:02.320 --> 00:58:06.159
Let me have to explain what the
word means. Yeah, I know,

619
00:58:06.280 --> 00:58:08.519
but it's true. But it's true
not that everything comes from Greece, from

620
00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:15.119
Greek, but that we can we
can tap into the wisdom of what is

621
00:58:15.159 --> 00:58:21.760
signified through the signifier. Hence we
say that in Greek there is no gap

622
00:58:21.800 --> 00:58:30.599
between signified and signify. Those two
our interview together in a dance of understanding.

623
00:58:30.800 --> 00:58:35.199
Yeah, I mean, this is
such a similar thing that we see

624
00:58:35.320 --> 00:58:39.480
in Sanskritain Indian traditions, and and
you know, it begs the question of

625
00:58:39.519 --> 00:58:45.360
whether or not this really was an
understanding that has kind of been lost sort

626
00:58:45.400 --> 00:58:53.119
of that was that was alive for
human beings in whatever kind of context they

627
00:58:53.119 --> 00:58:58.119
were in at a certain period.
And then at some point we lost and

628
00:58:58.119 --> 00:59:01.320
we got stuck in this you know, no of representational language alone. But

629
00:59:01.360 --> 00:59:07.880
we still we still understand it if
we really start to think mystically or esoteretically

630
00:59:07.880 --> 00:59:12.760
about music, right because we've we've
kind of categorized or rather you know,

631
00:59:13.519 --> 00:59:16.719
segregated music off as this thing called
entertainment. It's there to entertain us,

632
00:59:17.039 --> 00:59:21.960
but we all know the moving nature
of music and how much it brings us

633
00:59:22.039 --> 00:59:24.559
so easily to tears, like and
if we just pause to reflect on that,

634
00:59:24.639 --> 00:59:30.039
just for a moment, I think
it's so easy to connect with how

635
00:59:30.519 --> 00:59:37.079
transformative, how liberative, how profound
music and sound is, and how central

636
00:59:37.119 --> 00:59:42.119
it is to us as human beings
and and you know, and you can

637
00:59:42.199 --> 00:59:46.960
make such an easy link then to
language and and and and and to the

638
00:59:47.440 --> 00:59:52.480
an argument for the performative aspect of
language. And that's just not happening,

639
00:59:52.559 --> 00:59:58.519
right, It's not. It's something
that is relatively you know, lost at

640
00:59:58.599 --> 01:00:01.760
least in the mainstream of of contemporary
culture. And we find it in little

641
01:00:01.800 --> 01:00:07.280
you know, quadrants, like you
know, the spiritual communities that we engage

642
01:00:07.280 --> 01:00:09.639
in, perhaps when we chant mantras
or you know, or you're engaging with

643
01:00:09.719 --> 01:00:15.320
ancient Greek and the performative qualities of
that. But there really is this opportunity,

644
01:00:15.400 --> 01:00:22.639
I think, to open up that
understanding and that wisdom again and and

645
01:00:22.679 --> 01:00:25.519
I'm so grateful that you're working on
it from from the Hellenic side. So

646
01:00:27.679 --> 01:00:34.679
I want to talk a little bit
about uh deities because in the Hellenic tradition,

647
01:00:34.840 --> 01:00:37.960
right, and maybe I'm misunderstanding here
about I think when we talk about

648
01:00:38.079 --> 01:00:44.719
the Hellenic tradition, it also you
know, there is talk of Zeus and

649
01:00:45.480 --> 01:00:47.320
what is it correct to say that
that's a part of the Hellenic world?

650
01:00:47.360 --> 01:00:52.360
Is these this pantheon of deities like
Zeus and a Diena your name is athena

651
01:00:53.039 --> 01:00:58.480
aphro deity or you know, all
of these things. So of course when

652
01:00:58.719 --> 01:01:04.960
people talk about those gods today in
kind of modern you know, popular culture,

653
01:01:05.280 --> 01:01:07.480
it's sort of like, oh,
well, that's a quite you know,

654
01:01:07.719 --> 01:01:10.519
cute, provincial, you know,
way of thinking about God's but work

655
01:01:10.840 --> 01:01:15.880
totally past that, Like, you
know, if anything, if we believe

656
01:01:15.880 --> 01:01:17.320
in God at all, there's one
God. And then this was sort of

657
01:01:17.320 --> 01:01:22.159
this you know, ridiculous, sort
of backward way of thinking about divinity.

658
01:01:22.559 --> 01:01:25.960
So you know, what is missing
in that understanding, like, how should

659
01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:31.480
we from the kind of more esoteric, mystical hellenic perspective that you're that you're

660
01:01:31.599 --> 01:01:36.000
talking about here, how do we
understand the rule of these deities? What

661
01:01:36.079 --> 01:01:38.840
are they? What's their purpose with
their utility? That's a very good question.

662
01:01:39.079 --> 01:01:45.840
So it can be answered in two
ways. First of all, it's

663
01:01:45.880 --> 01:01:52.880
said in the Tau when the Tao
is lost, religion appears right. When

664
01:01:52.920 --> 01:01:59.199
religion is lost, I think something
like essex appears so and by religion,

665
01:01:59.360 --> 01:02:06.000
I think they would mean in the
Tao context also spirituality. So and William

666
01:02:06.079 --> 01:02:15.079
James said that religion destroyed the religious
experience exactly, so philosophers were not following

667
01:02:15.239 --> 01:02:21.440
the religion the way we would think
that the entire context of what we call

668
01:02:21.480 --> 01:02:25.119
the Hellenic period was believing in the
gods. Because always spirituality is not about

669
01:02:25.119 --> 01:02:31.280
religion. Religion is organized spirituality that
often ends up losing that connection with the

670
01:02:31.320 --> 01:02:36.519
spirit. Hence then it becomes politicized, and you know, even wars can

671
01:02:36.559 --> 01:02:38.480
be conducted in the name of religion. So, I mean, let's not

672
01:02:38.559 --> 01:02:44.719
forget that Socrates was condemned to death
by Athenians precisely because he was introducing new

673
01:02:44.800 --> 01:02:52.800
spirits and new ideas that were appearing
as blasphemous to the context of the time.

674
01:02:52.960 --> 01:03:00.199
So philosophers were not approaching the deities
in the way that let's say,

675
01:03:00.519 --> 01:03:07.000
the social context of their times would. Now do we see philosophers engaging in

676
01:03:07.039 --> 01:03:12.440
ideas about gods and deities talking about
them, absolutely, but how do they

677
01:03:12.480 --> 01:03:22.440
approach them as expressions of being,
as expression of the oneness which we call

678
01:03:22.079 --> 01:03:29.440
God, which is ultimately, as
Plato says, and or the entire tradition

679
01:03:29.760 --> 01:03:34.599
unnamed ariton. It's ineffable. It's
like that which cannot be said. Yet

680
01:03:34.599 --> 01:03:37.400
if we are to give it a
name, we will call it the one

681
01:03:38.079 --> 01:03:45.880
or God, and that God,
or the Source or Being itself or the

682
01:03:45.880 --> 01:03:49.960
source of being itself, whatever name
we give it, right we can actually

683
01:03:49.960 --> 01:03:55.519
describe it has different operations, different
energies, different movements, and all those

684
01:03:55.559 --> 01:04:05.000
are symbolized by the real pantheon of
the Hellenic worldview, not just the twelve

685
01:04:05.039 --> 01:04:10.159
gods we just we don't just have
twelve gods. We have all those minor

686
01:04:10.239 --> 01:04:15.079
duties and all those correlated This is
really like a pantheon, and we're very

687
01:04:15.159 --> 01:04:21.960
lucky to have some commentary saved both
in the Platonic literature, but also in

688
01:04:21.960 --> 01:04:28.400
the Neoplatonic literature, where authors decode
those names and explain. For example,

689
01:04:28.840 --> 01:04:31.079
let me give you an example.
Right, Zeus is supposed to be the

690
01:04:31.199 --> 01:04:38.440
creative mind. Hence he's like the
leader of the gods. He has so

691
01:04:38.559 --> 01:04:44.360
many wives and so many children.
And in the representations he always appears to

692
01:04:44.360 --> 01:04:50.960
be chasing after a woman, a
goddess or immortal woman, to give birth

693
01:04:51.280 --> 01:04:58.320
to more and more children. He's
quite fertile. Right, But this is

694
01:04:58.320 --> 01:05:01.239
what our minds are, right,
This is what not the mind, what

695
01:05:01.400 --> 01:05:09.559
consciousness in its creative operation does.
It can mingle with with all sorts of

696
01:05:09.599 --> 01:05:15.639
ideas, whether there are divine ideas
or kind of more ordinary ideas, hence

697
01:05:15.760 --> 01:05:20.960
goddesses or mortally women. Right,
and and it gives birth just the worlds.

698
01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:26.840
Everything that we experience here is a
birth of consciousness. It's it's yet

699
01:05:26.880 --> 01:05:29.880
another child of consciousness, and that
is simpolized by Zeus. And at the

700
01:05:29.880 --> 01:05:36.119
same time consciousness can destroy those projections. Hence Zeus has two names, Zeus

701
01:05:36.239 --> 01:05:43.079
or Vias Dias, from which then
the Latin those comes from which comes the

702
01:05:43.159 --> 01:05:48.159
notion of god Dos. Also in
some Hispanic languages they called god doos right,

703
01:05:48.480 --> 01:05:56.000
So but those comes from dia or
or deal two to divide, and

704
01:05:56.119 --> 01:06:01.920
zeus means the unifier or that which
is unifies it and and kind of returns

705
01:06:01.960 --> 01:06:08.199
to the source. So there are
these two movements of consciousness of creative consciousness.

706
01:06:08.760 --> 01:06:16.360
Yeah, it's a very elaborate theology
of consciousness symbolized through their presentations of

707
01:06:16.360 --> 01:06:20.920
what we call daities. That was
such an excellent explanation. So I want

708
01:06:20.960 --> 01:06:30.159
to talk a little bit about the
way in which Hellenic culture and understanding and

709
01:06:30.199 --> 01:06:38.320
Greek philosophy has been appropriated by you
know, modern understanding academia to a certain

710
01:06:38.360 --> 01:06:42.639
degree. And and so can you
talk a little bit about because you know,

711
01:06:42.800 --> 01:06:45.800
when we're when I'm when I'm listening
to you speak it. So it's

712
01:06:45.880 --> 01:06:48.800
inspiring. People listening to this are
going to be so refreshed to hear about

713
01:06:48.880 --> 01:06:55.239
ancient Greek philosophy as a kind of
living, a live tradition that also is

714
01:06:55.280 --> 01:07:00.440
a is a potential path for people, whereas we've been taught that it's sort

715
01:07:00.440 --> 01:07:06.760
of this dead relic archaeological artifact that's
just merely a historical curiosity. But that's

716
01:07:06.760 --> 01:07:13.239
a certain way in which it's been
understood and appropriated for I mean, if

717
01:07:13.239 --> 01:07:16.480
it's alive, it's only alive for
philosophical purposes. And when I say philosophical,

718
01:07:16.519 --> 01:07:23.079
I mean modern academic philosophy that has
a very specific way of understanding what

719
01:07:23.119 --> 01:07:26.119
the Greeks were doing. So can
you talk a little bit about that and

720
01:07:27.000 --> 01:07:30.119
what the explanation is for how that's
occurred. It's quite understandable from a historical

721
01:07:30.159 --> 01:07:40.559
perspective because in the newly arizing world
at the time, Christianity arose as the

722
01:07:40.599 --> 01:07:48.760
prevailing religion, and Christianity partly had
to fight over dominance for dominance over the

723
01:07:49.000 --> 01:07:58.599
ancient pagan tradition, which provided a
very specific way, either through religion or

724
01:07:58.800 --> 01:08:04.119
through Hellenic spirituality, for approaching what
we call God divinity, the realization of

725
01:08:04.159 --> 01:08:14.079
the human being. Therefore, Christianity
had to claim its dominance at that time

726
01:08:14.920 --> 01:08:23.960
had to eradicate all theological aspects of
Hellenism that could not fit into feeding and

727
01:08:24.039 --> 01:08:29.520
creating the theology of the Christian approach
the Christian religion. Of course, we

728
01:08:29.600 --> 01:08:34.600
know that the first debates of the
Christian theologians are based on the Platonic Christian

729
01:08:34.600 --> 01:08:40.159
theologists and the Arstotalian Christian theologians.
They really took a lot of elements.

730
01:08:40.399 --> 01:08:46.640
But then once those elements were appropriated, philosophy and the ancient sciences couldn't be

731
01:08:46.680 --> 01:08:57.039
anymore valid in themselves or accepted themselves
as alternative paths to approaching one or the

732
01:08:57.079 --> 01:09:02.960
divine or illumination, because that we
mean maintaining a polyphony, which at that

733
01:09:03.079 --> 01:09:09.720
time was not allowed. Only the
Christian path had to be allowed. Over

734
01:09:09.800 --> 01:09:15.920
the centuries that evolved into the emerging
of modern universities, which in Europe were

735
01:09:15.920 --> 01:09:20.520
still very much tied into the religious
authorities and institutions of the time. Therefore,

736
01:09:20.560 --> 01:09:25.960
that trend had to continue all the
way into the formulation of modern universities

737
01:09:26.000 --> 01:09:31.439
and academia, and those remnants of
approach have reached our days into the form

738
01:09:31.560 --> 01:09:41.159
that we keep from the ancients whatever
fits the world view of Western materialism or

739
01:09:41.239 --> 01:09:46.800
Western prevailing theology, mainly the Christian
theology, and all the other elements that

740
01:09:46.840 --> 01:09:53.039
speak about mystical experience, about direct
union with the One. All the methods

741
01:09:53.079 --> 01:09:58.880
that are ingrained in the philosophical path
don't have a space, don't have a

742
01:09:58.920 --> 01:10:02.720
space, have to be kept and
I will not forget one time I was

743
01:10:02.760 --> 01:10:10.720
actually at Oxford. I raised my
hand after representation on Plato's mathematics and I

744
01:10:10.760 --> 01:10:17.680
said, well, that was actually
a beautiful presentation. And the the speaker

745
01:10:17.720 --> 01:10:27.239
had talked about how Plato thought mathematics
was a way of being uh initiated into

746
01:10:27.239 --> 01:10:31.159
the divine and it's actually a theology. We have books on the theology of

747
01:10:31.199 --> 01:10:40.159
the numbers. Just numbers themselves are
our paths to self, to self realize.

748
01:10:40.520 --> 01:10:43.760
And so I asked, well,
that's beautiful. How can we apply

749
01:10:43.880 --> 01:10:48.239
it? And I was severely attacked
by colleagues saying we cannot apply this is

750
01:10:48.279 --> 01:10:53.399
this is not applicable. We are
not philosophers. We're not Plato. Plato

751
01:10:53.520 --> 01:10:57.560
is a philosopher. We're we are
the study. We're students of We are

752
01:10:57.640 --> 01:11:00.359
studying the philosophers. We're not philosoph
first. And that reminds me a bit

753
01:11:00.399 --> 01:11:05.439
of the of of what else saw
in Church, because in Greece the prevailing

754
01:11:05.640 --> 01:11:11.319
religion is still Christianity. Obviously this
idea that, of course you can you

755
01:11:11.319 --> 01:11:15.720
can read about Christ, you cannot
become one, when when in the Testiment

756
01:11:16.159 --> 01:11:24.479
them Testament itself, we have Jesus
words saying you will achieve what I achieved,

757
01:11:24.520 --> 01:11:27.479
and even more. You're my brothers, you're my sisters and my brothers,

758
01:11:27.520 --> 01:11:30.079
and you will achieve even more than
I did. And so of course

759
01:11:30.119 --> 01:11:36.119
then we tap into a different kind
of of of of narrative and discourse of

760
01:11:36.319 --> 01:11:41.880
why is it that although playto himself
said well, walk the path, don't

761
01:11:41.920 --> 01:11:45.760
talk, don't talk about the path, walk the path, and Jesus said

762
01:11:45.800 --> 01:11:48.960
the same, why is it that
nowadays we have this socialized or these these

763
01:11:49.119 --> 01:12:00.199
these these politicized structures of approaching either
Christianity or Hellenism that just talk about that

764
01:12:00.319 --> 01:12:03.199
without giving us the means of realizing
what Christ, if we believe in Christ,

765
01:12:03.279 --> 01:12:08.119
had realized, or what the Inswest
had realized. That's a different discussion,

766
01:12:08.159 --> 01:12:11.600
but I just want to stay to
the point that this is this I

767
01:12:11.640 --> 01:12:21.199
think why sometimes people, we then
academic stitutions, feel uncomfortable with a practice

768
01:12:21.920 --> 01:12:28.479
or philosophy as a holistic path that
involves the body, involves the psyche,

769
01:12:28.680 --> 01:12:34.159
involves our everyday lives, involves our
relationships, involves meditation, and above all

770
01:12:34.319 --> 01:12:41.920
involves the the awakening of our spirit. I mean, I love what you're

771
01:12:41.960 --> 01:12:46.560
saying, because of course it could
be almost like a sales pitch for embodied

772
01:12:46.560 --> 01:12:51.439
philosophy, because that was literally the
origin of the term came from actually,

773
01:12:51.479 --> 01:12:56.319
you know, partly our you know, conversations that we had, you know,

774
01:12:56.520 --> 01:13:02.119
and explorations and understandings of philosophy as
as you said before, the love

775
01:13:02.159 --> 01:13:08.800
of wisdom and that you know,
it's almost like it becomes almost redundant to

776
01:13:08.800 --> 01:13:13.479
say embodied philosophy when you understand philosophy
in the way that you're talking about it.

777
01:13:13.520 --> 01:13:16.640
But because philosophy has become reduced to, as you said before, this

778
01:13:17.079 --> 01:13:23.359
armchair theoretical practice that has all these
historical origins that you just so kind of

779
01:13:23.399 --> 01:13:34.119
fascinating, fascinatingly fascinating, unpacked for
us, you know, the this you

780
01:13:34.159 --> 01:13:38.199
know, this, it almost becomes
like I said, it becomes it becomes

781
01:13:38.239 --> 01:13:43.159
redundant because philosophy is already if we
understand it in the way that you're talking

782
01:13:43.199 --> 01:13:49.479
about it, embodied philosophy. So
what you've been describing and and the the

783
01:13:49.520 --> 01:13:57.840
origin of this forgetting if you will, is you know, you've been doing

784
01:13:57.920 --> 01:14:00.479
work also with an organization. I
don't know if you're going to speak about

785
01:14:00.479 --> 01:14:08.000
this about the Galao Commission, which
you know I and in body philosophy have

786
01:14:08.199 --> 01:14:12.359
endorsed, and you know there's signatories
on this on this document that you've created

787
01:14:12.359 --> 01:14:16.039
with these other i'll call them scholar
practitioners. Can you talk a little bit

788
01:14:16.079 --> 01:14:20.159
about the galle Commission, what it's
all about and how it connects a little

789
01:14:20.159 --> 01:14:25.720
bit to what you're describing in terms
of this appropriation of Hellenism in a way

790
01:14:25.800 --> 01:14:33.239
that is materialistic alone. So the
Galleic Commission started from what is called the

791
01:14:33.279 --> 01:14:41.199
Scientific, Scientific and Medical Network,
which was instituted thirty years ago basically as

792
01:14:41.239 --> 01:14:46.439
a as a space, an oasis
that we'd call it where mainly scientists from

793
01:14:46.439 --> 01:15:00.199
the positivist sciences and medical practitioners could
meet to discuss ideas about spirit and soul

794
01:15:00.479 --> 01:15:06.079
holistic views that were not permitted either
in their practices or in their scholarship at

795
01:15:06.119 --> 01:15:11.840
the time and recently was a few
years ago. The Galileo Commission was like

796
01:15:11.880 --> 01:15:17.520
a branch growing out of that organization, which published a report called the galile

797
01:15:17.600 --> 01:15:30.399
Report that basically that includes it's like
a manifesto. It's a manifesto that argues

798
01:15:30.640 --> 01:15:35.359
how there is enough evidence right now
for a post materialistic science. So there

799
01:15:35.439 --> 01:15:43.520
is evidence coming from the positive sciences
showing how it's not a matter that's primary

800
01:15:43.680 --> 01:15:48.279
in nature, but consciousness, and
that consciousness is unitary and shared. And

801
01:15:48.960 --> 01:15:56.119
despite the many that's why it's called
Galileo Commission. Despite the many evidence the

802
01:15:56.760 --> 01:16:01.920
research showing towards the possibility that the
very found days of Western science and the

803
01:16:02.000 --> 01:16:09.239
Western material materialist worldview are not valid, they have been overturned, a lot

804
01:16:09.279 --> 01:16:15.279
of scientists still don't want to engage
into even considering this evidence, very much

805
01:16:15.520 --> 01:16:21.479
like the colleagues of Galileo at the
time were resisting seeing through the telescope and

806
01:16:21.960 --> 01:16:29.760
considering the evidence that I was there
because of because of bias, because of

807
01:16:29.840 --> 01:16:35.600
attachment to a dogma. Hence our
uses report that the foundation of science is

808
01:16:35.640 --> 01:16:40.600
dogmatic. It's not scientific, it's
axiomatic. Right, of course, every

809
01:16:40.600 --> 01:16:43.840
theory has axioms, and those axioms
are not prooved, they're taken for granted,

810
01:16:43.880 --> 01:16:47.600
and once they're overturned, we can
either accept that and move to a

811
01:16:47.640 --> 01:16:53.760
new theory, or if we are
very much embedded in the in that theoretical

812
01:16:53.800 --> 01:16:58.560
construct, we may resist the overturning
of its axioms, because that would imply

813
01:17:00.079 --> 01:17:04.680
the call transformation of our own selves. So then a lot of anthropological psychological

814
01:17:04.680 --> 01:17:12.239
factors come into play. So this
year we decided to publish also a report,

815
01:17:12.680 --> 01:17:15.439
or we call it a call for
our renaiscence of the spirit and the

816
01:17:15.520 --> 01:17:24.000
humanities, making the case for what
is problematic about the materialistic foundations and the

817
01:17:24.000 --> 01:17:30.039
ideological foundations of modern academia, and
what are the possibilities that open up once

818
01:17:30.079 --> 01:17:38.279
we accept a consciousness only based model, or the primary of consciousness model for

819
01:17:38.800 --> 01:17:42.239
not just the positive sciences, but
for the humanities. And it was a

820
01:17:42.279 --> 01:17:49.039
great it was a great joy to
be the author of this of this call

821
01:17:49.359 --> 01:17:55.880
and being able to explore those things
that we have been talking about so many

822
01:17:56.000 --> 01:18:00.960
years. And I think we followed
very parallel, very paralil parallel paths.

823
01:18:00.039 --> 01:18:08.159
You focused on how we can move
to a more inclusive approach to philosophy through

824
01:18:08.640 --> 01:18:12.680
amazing platform body philosophy. You know, I followed a different path, but

825
01:18:12.720 --> 01:18:15.960
I think it's the same you rightly
pointed out, it's the same request.

826
01:18:16.000 --> 01:18:23.079
It's the same calling about how we
can transform our educational systems in a way

827
01:18:23.119 --> 01:18:30.760
that reflect the richness of our human
spirit. That was so beautiful Athena.

828
01:18:30.159 --> 01:18:34.319
Yeah, I mean I find the
Galileo Commission to be a really incredible thing

829
01:18:34.359 --> 01:18:38.239
that you've you know, that you've
worked on and collaborated on. And as

830
01:18:38.279 --> 01:18:42.960
you said, you wrote this the
manifesto that is a really exciting read and

831
01:18:43.279 --> 01:18:47.159
for anybody that wants to read the
Galileo Commission or that you're not calling it

832
01:18:47.199 --> 01:18:50.000
a manifesto now you're calling it something
else. No, we won't call it

833
01:18:50.000 --> 01:18:57.119
a manifesto because it's not. You
know, we felt that the is very

834
01:18:57.119 --> 01:19:00.279
problem. Yes, it's a call, it's an invitation. Yeah, it's

835
01:19:00.279 --> 01:19:02.760
an invitation. Let's you know,
let's see what's happening. Let's see why

836
01:19:02.960 --> 01:19:06.159
societies are the way they are,
universities are the way they are. Let's

837
01:19:06.159 --> 01:19:12.520
see why humanity suffers from depression more
than any other condition. Why is that?

838
01:19:12.760 --> 01:19:15.279
Of course, the way we tune
our minds through education has a great

839
01:19:15.359 --> 01:19:18.800
role to play. And when we
have to address those those problems, and

840
01:19:19.600 --> 01:19:27.159
we have to address the resistance of
academic structures to all those beautiful ideas we've

841
01:19:27.159 --> 01:19:31.239
been discussing all the time. And
it's a term that you know, we

842
01:19:31.239 --> 01:19:39.039
were talking about the other day or
just before, the term epistemological discrimination.

843
01:19:39.319 --> 01:19:45.640
Yes, discrimination doesn't happen only on
the basis of color, race, sex.

844
01:19:45.119 --> 01:19:49.560
It can happen on the base of
ideas. And sometimes I think we

845
01:19:49.640 --> 01:19:56.680
have witnessed that at various academic extitutions, we're being discriminated just because our ideas

846
01:19:56.720 --> 01:20:02.159
don't fit the main narrative. Well, well, where is the freedom of

847
01:20:02.279 --> 01:20:05.439
thought, where's the freedom of spirit? In that? I think it's time

848
01:20:05.479 --> 01:20:12.720
to really open up our minds and
explores their ideas, those ideas that we're

849
01:20:12.760 --> 01:20:18.479
discussing, you know, in our
spiritual slash scholar practitioner work. Also on

850
01:20:18.520 --> 01:20:23.600
an academic level, Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean Galileo Commission is

851
01:20:23.680 --> 01:20:27.680
so fascinating and I'm hoping to do
more kind of interviews with people that have

852
01:20:27.720 --> 01:20:31.079
been participating, and so at some
point we'll have there's some great scholars and

853
01:20:31.159 --> 01:20:35.159
scientists okay, perfect letter collaborating it. We'll create a little list and I'll

854
01:20:35.199 --> 01:20:40.399
dive in and we'll have them on
a future episode. So, Athena,

855
01:20:40.479 --> 01:20:44.720
this has been so beautiful talking to
you, and I'm sure we're going to

856
01:20:44.760 --> 01:20:46.840
do it again because I don't have
any plans to stop doing this podcast.

857
01:20:46.880 --> 01:20:51.079
It's been going strong for six years
and hopefully it'll God willing it will go

858
01:20:51.119 --> 01:20:55.960
on for six more and then some
so we'll have to have you back to

859
01:20:56.000 --> 01:21:00.359
talk about more beautiful Hellenic wisdom.
So it's been such a pleasure, but

860
01:21:00.439 --> 01:21:04.359
I wanted to give you a chance
as we close, to offer anyone who's

861
01:21:04.399 --> 01:21:10.279
listening an opportunity or rather a doorway
to find you. So how can people

862
01:21:10.319 --> 01:21:13.760
find you and learn about more that
you're doing. I know you teach mostly

863
01:21:13.840 --> 01:21:17.239
right now in Greek, but there
is, by the way, for those

864
01:21:17.359 --> 01:21:23.039
listening, there is a plan in
the works for Athena to do initially a

865
01:21:23.079 --> 01:21:28.840
talk. We're also talking about her
participating in doing a talk, and then

866
01:21:28.920 --> 01:21:32.479
also a course in Hellenic wisdom,
and there's more to come. So if

867
01:21:32.479 --> 01:21:38.119
you're looking for something in English with
Athena, we have some plans for that

868
01:21:38.159 --> 01:21:41.680
on the way. But besides that, Athena, tell people how they can

869
01:21:41.760 --> 01:21:45.000
find you online or anywhere else you
want to share. You're going to get

870
01:21:45.039 --> 01:21:47.800
this. You can pray, you
can collect to connect with me, to

871
01:21:47.920 --> 01:21:57.399
lepathically pathetly. So what do I
say? Okay, Facebook, Facebook Athenai

872
01:21:58.239 --> 01:22:03.119
and then also we will she will
be releasing We've been talking actually at about

873
01:22:03.159 --> 01:22:08.960
her website and it will be released. It's going to be a beautiful outpouring

874
01:22:09.000 --> 01:22:13.720
of wisdom in and of itself,
and it will be ready someday. And

875
01:22:13.760 --> 01:22:17.239
so depending on when you're listening to
this that that website may be found and

876
01:22:17.279 --> 01:22:20.399
we will make sure to put it
in the show notes to this episode when

877
01:22:20.439 --> 01:22:26.560
it becomes available. So just check
back and check for it when you can.

878
01:22:26.600 --> 01:22:29.159
I can I say one last thing, of course, because you asked

879
01:22:29.159 --> 01:22:34.319
before about how is this path valuable
for us today? When I went to

880
01:22:34.399 --> 01:22:45.720
India, I was blessed to meet
some very special people beings, and one

881
01:22:45.760 --> 01:22:54.760
of the messages, one of the
advice I received was what are you doing

882
01:22:54.840 --> 01:22:58.359
here? Why are you up in
the Malayas? Why are you up in

883
01:22:58.520 --> 01:23:06.680
Armsala? Everything you're looking for,
it's where you started from. It wasn't

884
01:23:06.880 --> 01:23:14.760
just a message of the mind.
It was really I felt through my entire

885
01:23:14.840 --> 01:23:20.800
body. It was for me a
message of spirit, a message of heart.

886
01:23:23.439 --> 01:23:27.760
And in time I realized something that
then doesn't have only validity for me

887
01:23:27.960 --> 01:23:33.640
or for Greeks, but for all
people, and especially all Westerners that were

888
01:23:33.760 --> 01:23:41.000
already nested in a spiritual tradition,
which, like all spiritual traditions, has

889
01:23:41.039 --> 01:23:45.359
a different flavor, and that flavor
is close to the Western soul in the

890
01:23:45.399 --> 01:23:51.319
sense that it employs the mind.
It employs the intellect, doesn't leave it

891
01:23:51.359 --> 01:24:00.920
out. It uses rigor. It
taps into ideas of citizenship and politics and

892
01:24:00.000 --> 01:24:08.479
love and relationship and friendship that they're
so ingrained in our cultural outlook. If

893
01:24:08.479 --> 01:24:14.760
we can speak of a unitary Western
cultural outlook. And therefore, with all

894
01:24:14.800 --> 01:24:19.720
my respect to all spiritual or wisdom
traditions of the world, and I happen

895
01:24:19.800 --> 01:24:25.079
to have teachers in a few of
them, and I'm practicing a few of

896
01:24:25.159 --> 01:24:30.680
them. Still, Nevertheless, I
realized that I don't need to run to

897
01:24:30.800 --> 01:24:41.199
India or run to anywhere else to
tap into a spiritual dharma right as spiritual

898
01:24:41.239 --> 01:24:48.439
ambience, that a spiritual treasury that
can give me access to what I've always

899
01:24:48.479 --> 01:24:55.359
been seeking. That we already have
that, and that is our hellenic route.

900
01:24:56.239 --> 01:25:00.560
I've been speaking with my dear,
dear friend and soul sister, Athena

901
01:25:00.600 --> 01:25:03.840
Potari Athena, It's been such a
pleasure. Thank you, Thank you so

902
01:25:03.960 --> 01:25:04.600
much. Jacob