Welcome to episode fifty six of Get Out a Live podcast where me your host
Ashley every other week tells you to animal to xtor kid. I didn't even
do anything. I just feel you're looking at me. We are recording a
podcast. I have to look at you at some point and me, your
other host, Nick has new patroon shout this week. Whoo whoo. All
right, so huge shout out to Laura who is our newest expert survivalist.
Thank you very much for joining us, and if anyone else like to join
us on Patreon, you can check us out at patreon dot com. Slast
get a Live podcast. Nice. Thanks. The one thing you didn't say
was that we should cue the music. Cue the music now, Hi.
But that's it. Thanks Lara, Thank you so much, and welcome to
part two of our two part coverage of the Dingo has My Baby case Azaria
Chamberlain pretty fucked up so far, it only gets more, so I can't
wait. Is there anything else we should say? Or do we want to
get right into it? Let's get right into it. I have actively avoided
any spoilers about the end of this. I have not talked about it with
anyone. I have not advertised or episode at all this past couple of weeks,
or do you normally? I talked to everybody I see about the really
constantly. Yes. Wow, I'm so annoying about it. Well that's not
surprise if I go to a bar and I'm like talking to people like you
have a podcast, right you h it's super douchy. It's like it's it's
part of the bit. Wow. Anyways, so earlier before we started recording,
you asked me how many pages of notes? Yeah? How many?
How many pages you have for part two? Between the two episodes, I
had twenty six pages. I have a swap book about this case, and
so first part was fourteen pages and part two is twelve pages. Oh yeah,
okay, at least it's shorter. Yeah. So hopefully won't be an
hour and a half this time, or we'll see what happened. It was
a struggle to get that edited. It hurt in a few hours at the
the Oh yeah, you said til four thirty in the morning. Yeah.
I went text at four to thirty in the morning when it was ready.
Yeah, sorry about that. Oh yeah, that was rough. You did
a great job. Yeah, you texted me to make an edit at like
seven thirty. I was not awake. That's fair. I just did it
anyways. So where we left off, And first of all, if you
haven't listened to part one, definitely listened to part one. It is very
important. Yeah, it won't make much sense if if you don't check it
out. No, And where we left off in the last episode was that
blood spatter was found in the family's car. And I mean, like,
I talked a lot of shit about people assuming that the parents were involved somehow,
So now I feel like an idiot just doesn't happen very often. Would
you laugh? No comment? Oh man? All right. So the Chamberlain
family had visited Ularu, which is a national park in Australia, and then
on the second night that they were there, August seventeenth, Lindy Chamberlain,
the mother, left her two children, four year old Reagan and nine week
old Azaria, in the family's tent while Lindy, the father, Michael,
and their six year old son Aiden, were getting dinner not too far away
from the tent in a communal cooking area, and they were hanging out with
two other people, Sally Low and her husband Greg. They were just like
another family at the campsite, and you said the cooking air was what like
ninety feet away? You said it wasn't very far, No, thirty yards
yeah close. Yeah. So, shortly after Lindy had left the tent with
Aiden, the family heard a whimper coming from the tent, and when Lindy
went back, she saw a dingo coming out of the tent allegedly holding something.
What's that? Something to be determined. Oh, Lindy didn't really know.
But when Lindy looked inside the tent, her baby was gone. So
a huge search ensued, but no one could find Azaria or any trace of
her. But the parents were very involved in the search. They well,
they left, they left. We'll get into it. Relox fucking I don't
make assumptions. What I say, I make assumptions apparently correct ones, so
pretty much exclusively incorrect. What's yes. After an inquest led by a coroner,
Dennis Barrett of Alice Springs, it was determined that a dingo had taken
Azaria based on all the evidence and witness statements. And let's go over the
evidence again that we have where we left off in the last episode. Okay,
so there are bloodstains on the outside of the tent, which a forensic
investigator said was consistent with arterial spray. But if you remember, it like
sat for a while in storage because the cop receiving it didn't realize it was
blood on it, stored improperly in storage for a long time. Yep.
Then a pair of Lindy's tracksuit pants and a sleeping bag from the town's dry
cleaners was taken into evidence. And if you remember this, when the family
returned to their home, a family friend took these items to the dry cleaner.
Yep. Then there were the tears in Azaria's blanket, which looked like
they were from a knife, not by teeth, which is once again incredibly
subjective. And then that man named Wally, when he was out hiking with
his family at Ularu some days later, found a torn baby's jumpsuit and a
shredded diaper on the ground near ula Yeah, I'm looking at the pictures on
our Patreon right now. Yeah. So the jumpsuit was face up with blood
visible around the neckline. The buttons are on the front of the jumpsuit was
undone, and there was blood inside the jumpsuit. So these look like like
clasping buttons. They're not like correct. Yeah, so I had a different
idea of what the buttons were like the first time we talkedbat because didn't seen
the photos. Yeah, this makes a lot more sense to me as to
how an animal could get something out of this, Like you just pull it
and it comes out. Yeah, yeah, yep. Yeah. So otherwise,
the clothing wasn't really damaged besides a tear at the neckline and one of
the arms. And there was no I didn't mention this in the last episode,
but there was no dingo saliva found on the jumpsuit. Oh yeah.
Interesting. And then if you remember, investigator Frank Morris picked all of it
up and then attempted to place it back the way that he found it.
I wonder Frank Morris is as a listener. Doubtful. Yeah, you're an
idiot. If you are, he might be dead. It's a while ago.
Okay, well I would. I don't wantch death on the man,
like come on, as I'm saying, like time that it was like twenty
five years ago. The eighties were a long time ago. No, that
was more than twenty five forty Oh my god, I'm twenty five. Shit,
in the nineties yeah. God, see, I automatically assumed that we're
in year two thousand, wheneverything were the years. I don't know why I
was four year two thousands anyways, So then you know, besides the clothing
that was found and whatnot, and the blood, of course, there are
pap prints found and nine animal hairs found within the basket that Azaria had been
placed into sleep. And then, like I said, we left off with
the Chamberlain family's car being seized a year and a month after Zaria's death because
a British forensic scientist, James Cameron, said that he determined new evidence,
which let's get into it. I mean, what evidence could there be that
would still be there after year and a half? Thank you? Yeah?
Correct, Okay, it'd be all fucked up. So, yeah, it
is no reason it's ate the fucking car. Well, his entire thing was
he claimed that there was an incision at the neck of the jumpsuit consistent with
being caused by scissors, not by teeth. So is he looking for scissors
in the car? Yeah? Well he also, if you remember, claimed
to find a small adult human handprint in the bloodstains found at the scene,
and said that there was a distinct possibility that the clothes had been placed duh,
and then dug up in place where they were found, and that was
unlikely a dingo was involved. This is ridiculous for me. No, it's
yeah, I mean it doesn't sound right, but like I don't, I
don't fucking know. So this was literally the only reason another inquest was opened,
because investigators were really looking for reasons to hold Michael and especially Lindy accountable
for Azaria's death. And I'm saying death, but of course, like no
parts of Azaria's body was found, but after three days of her being missing,
she was assumed and declared dead. Yeah, which is part of the
right call. Yeah. Absolutely, And you know, I wasn't going to
launch into like a whole debate about bias. But if we think it's appropriate,
we can do that. Yeah, to do it. Okay. So
I for those of you who might be listening for the first time, I'm
so sorry. If you've been listening, I keep talking about it. But
I'm get a master's degree in wildlife forensics, and in one of my courses,
crime scene processing, we talked about bias and it is crazy. There
was one study and I'll have to look it up. I can't remember it
off the top of my head, but I'll link it in the episode description.
And basically, they interviewed a bunch of different types of forensic investigators,
so like people who did DNA analysis versus like blood spatter analysis, and all
of them more or less said that they didn't think bias was a problem in
their specific field, but said bias was a problem for other people. So
they're bias and there against their own bias. Yeah, opinions about bias,
Yeah, of course. But I think that's the really dangerous part when you're
an investigator, because, like I just said, these people were looking for
reasons to make Lindy guilty. Why though, like, what was their reason
for wanting her to be guilty? I think they just were determined that it
wasn't a dingo, so it had to be this woman. This makes no
sense to me. So they have all the evidence that says that Dingo took
this baby and they go, nah, now they're like, it's probably that
dumb woman, that witch who wears black and just baby and black, and
well, yeah, they just I don't know, some men just hate women
and want to think that they murdered a child. What did they say was
the baby's name? Again? They thought that Azaria meant sacrifice in the wilderness,
Yes, and it really meant like whom God aids Now, if it
did mean sacrifice in the wilderness, that would be really weird, kind of
sick. I mean, but it didn't mean that as far as I know.
It could but like it doesn't, yeah, or didn't the one doctor
who said that that was a thing there there was no evidence after that.
Yeah. And then also the Chamberlains were like it was forgot anyways. In
September of nineteen eighty one, Northern Territory Police did a four and a half
hour search of the Chamberlain family's home and an additional three hundred items of evidence
were taken, including scissors, clothing, and the family's car. Damn.
Specifically, the family's car was a Taranta. If you know what that looks
like? Ummm no, let me look it up, okay, And they
had driven that Tarana to in nineteen eighty on that family trip where Azaria was
lost. And of course we left off in the last episode by saying there's
blood spatter in the car, so a sticky substance was found under the dashboard,
but they concluded it was from a soda or something similar because blood would
have dried in two hours. But they did find real bloodstains on and under
the front passenger seat, on the interior door handle, the car's console,
and on a metal plate under the dashboard, and it was claimed that the
spray under the dashboard was consistent with spray of a liquid under high pressure and
from a small orifice like an artery. Huh. A towel, Michael's camera
bag, and a pair of scissors in the car all had a quote blood
like substance on them as well. It's still weird to mean that they would
have this stuff in the car after a year and a half, like,
especially if it was evidence in the disappearance of your child. Like, I
can't imagine these people if they did this. We're stupid enough to keep that
shit in the car. Also, they're camping, They're probably using scissors to
cut open like packs of hot dogs or share like mistakes. There's tons of
reasons why there could be shit on these scissors. Yeah, now, blood
on the inside the car weird. Weird. I mean, you grew up
with brothers like I'm sure someone got punched in the face one day and blood
got all over the inside of the car, right, I mean probably also,
like I have a bloody gash on me right now for the cat.
It just happens, you leak. When I was in high school, I
had that durango that had bloodstains all over it. Oh that's concerning we hunt.
Oh yeah, yeah, okay, well yeah, anyways, just don't
throw shit down on the carpet before we put the bloody thing onto carpet.
That's silly. Anyways. So also in the search of the home, a
small child sized coffin was found, and of course this led to everyone freaking
out, but Michael said it was actually part of an anti smoking campaign he
did for Ah. Oh wow, I don't Oh it is a weird look.
But also I don't know. People were freaking out, but it's like
if they were going to put her in, the coffin should be in it,
you know what I mean. Like, and it is a thing where
people will bury coffins that bodies in it as a thing of closure, like
that happens. Wait really oh yeah, oh I didn't know that. Yeah.
Oh that's sad. It's really sad. Yeah, it's extremely sad because
you just have a freaking headstone with no person. Oh yeah, god,
I even think of that. Yeah. So anyways, if you remember from
the last episode, Green Charlewood, the name that you liked, yep,
one of the guys in charge of the investigation told Lindy that this was happening
like the search of their home, specifically because of the findings that James Cameron
made, to which Lindy responded, quote, I didn't know there were any
dingo experts in London, oh roasted, I like Lindy. In November of
nineteen eighty one, the findings from the first inquest done by Barrett were ruled
out based on the quote new evidence, and thus began the second inquest,
almost a year after the first one. I have issues with this evidence being
taken so far after the fact because obviously it is compromised because it has not
been kept in a way that would prevent contamination. Of course not, it
doesn't make any sense. And it's not like the fan only stop using their
car, like they used this car for a year. Yeah, ridiculous.
Anyways, there's a few more names to remember in this episode. I tried
to like leave out the names that I would only mention once, but there's
a few that will have to remember. So the first is Jerry Galvin,
who was overseeing the second inquest, and he was assisted by Barrister des Sturgis,
who was tasked with questioning witnesses. And Dez made it clear from the
questions that he asked the Chamberlain parents that he thought that they were guilty of
killing Azaria on August seventeenth, nineteen eighty and he believed that Azaria was killed
in the Toronto with a sharp instrument, probably scissors. You're wait, you're
telling me this guy told the parents that he thought that he killed they killed
him. It was just a parent in the way that he was asking the
questions. Yeah, he was like being probably over the leading questions. Yeah,
yeah, like hey, so how'd you do it? Yeah? Why
would you want to kill your child? Yeah, not that you did,
but like if you did want to kill your kid, why would why why
would you want to kill the kid. And he had that assumption specifically due
to all the blood stains that were found in the car. Also, if
you all hear clicking or anything, it's because Nick and I are recording in
person again, and my dogs are click clacking around and Penny is currently staring
at him and I can't pat her because as you won't leave. So Joy
Cool was the biologist inspecting the evidence found in the car, and she claimed
that the blood in the car belonged to a human. And we're talking the
very early nineteen eighties, and we touched on it briefly in the last episode,
but for additional context, Watson and quick Quote discovered using that term loosely
DNA in the nineteen fifties, which of course would not have been possible with
that Rosalind Franklin. Do you know who Franklin is? No? Oh my
god. Okay, well that's a whole a nother that's a different episode,
Okay. Anyways, so that was nineteen fifties. And then polimerase chain reactions
aka PCR was invented in nineteen eighty six in the UK by Carrie Mullins,
and in that same year, DNA was used in a criminal investigation in the
UK for the first time. Oh as that was quick, Like the moment
they did the PCR stuff like yeah, immediately straight to use Yeah, which
is awesome. So Azaria's case, it was just too early and there was
not enough physical evidence collected, likely corrected the correct way to do any DNA
tests, So even if the blood was human, there's no way to tell
whose it is. Yeah. So what Joy did was she checked the stains
using a screening test to check the molecular content of the blood, and she
was looking to determine if the blood belonged to an adult or a child by
specifically looking for fetal hemoglobin, which is in babies up until they're six months.
Oh shit, maybe they can't prove it. So Joy claimed to find
fidal hemoglobin in twenty two places in the vehicle. Wow, including Michael's camera
bag and on the scissors found in the car. What if, like her
water broke in the car when they're gone the way to the hospital or something.
Is that what I mean? Would that would that be? I mean,
unless I don't think the baby's blood comes out. I don't know ad
a mother exactly. We know so little about babies. Yeah. Anyways,
probably not. But the blood in the tent assumed to have been from the
Dingo attack was quote confirmed to belong to a baby, and then they just
assumed that it was asarius that could be a different baby, could have been
baby. Who knows. So I just told you that Joy found baby blood
in the car, But then she was also saying that there's baby blood in
the tent. Oh wait a minute, Yeah, so the assumption was made
that the baby blood also, I'm sorry, I'm saying baby blood also once
again content warning. If you don't like bad stuff happening to babies, don't
listen to this. Rest This basically were well pass that we speculate wildly,
and by way I mean the people back in the nineteen eighties and me.
So the assumption was made that the baby blood in the tent was transferred there
from somebody else, not directly from a child in the tent. Then what
huh? It gets crazier. So anyways, Joy reported these findings as evidence,
but then directly after she ran these tests, she destroyed her testing materials,
which she said was common practice, so her test could not be checked
or replicated. Is that true? Is it common practice to destroy you?
Oh? My god, no, not anymore. I don't know what the
fuck they were doing back then, but that is not okay. As someone
who is so I used to do it. For a hot minute, did
some HIV research. You did not throw that stuff away, No, for
any period of time. No, I mean, I'm sure it was like
you held onto it four years because you could also want to run other studies
off of it in the future. But yeah, back then, I guess
allegedly that's what her lab did. That's fucking dumb, it's that's really fucking
incredibly responsible. Yeah, and remember that I mentioned that when the Chamberlains got
home from that trip in nineteen eighty, a friend took some of their stuff
to the dry cleaners. Yes, in court, it was said that there
was blood found on Lindy's tracksuit pants, and the dry cleaner specifically said there
were thirty two spots of blood that they found and those pants were sent for
forensic testing, but no blood could be found by examiners. So they did
a really good job cleaning. Huh. Yeah, I guess, I guess.
So, yeah, that's a good advertisement for the cleaning company. But
also, when Azaria went missing, Lindy was wearing a dress. Oh,
so they the prosecution claimed that she probably changed out of those pants and then
into the dress once Azaria was dead. So here's the overall theory that the
prosecution had they presumed that Lindy went into the car, sat in the passenger
seat, and held the Czaria under the dashboard and slit her throat with a
pair of ohh and the forensic experts for the prosecution side said that the blood
in the car was consistent with blood spray on the like the blood spray and
the dashboard was consistent as if someone had been holding a child at their feet,
which also would have matched the stains on Lindy's pants that the forensic examiners
could not find. Oh oh fuck yeah. And this theory also explained to
them why that kind of blood spatter and staining was not evident in the tent.
But there was still But I thought you said when we talked about the
tent blood was that it's from arterial bleeding. It was a spray, right
yep? I mean would this kid just be leaking blood from the car to
the tent like or just didn't happen that or they're incorrect? Yeah, yeah,
let's find out what fuck? Like, I mean, they have evidence
of blood, so like what happened? So in court, Lindy testified that
she didn't put on those track pants until ten pm. Well after Azaria it
was already missing, and before that the pants were lying near the entrance of
the tent. But she also doesn't remember telling her friend that there was blood
on her clothing. Yeah, and her friend also testified like I did not
say that to the dry cleaner, So I don't know what the dry cleaner
is. What the fuck is happening here? Yeah, it gets crazier.
I'm going to try to keep it all straight, but like, if you
have questions about how things are ordered, definitely asked. I mean no,
Yeah, I'm already confused because like they're saying shit that directly contradicts what other
people had said in the same case. Yep, it's yeah, it just
makes no fucking sense. And I want to believe the police, but also
like don't want to believe that these people killed their kid. Yeah, I
mean, it seems like the purpose of the second inquest was just to like
completely override any evidence found in the first inquest that said that they weren't guilty.
Once again, these people are trying to find Lindy guilty. I just
don't get it. Why I couldn't tell you, Oh God, psychopaths.
So also, the family purchased the Tronta in nineteen sen nine, so just
a year before. Yeah, and they said that both of their sons had
nosebleeds in the car. Oh look at that. And also they had once
picked up a hitchhiker that had sustained an injury from an accident, and that
person was in their backseat. Okay, these people might be crazy. Why
you picked up a fucking hitchhiker that gote to an accident A hitchhiker. Yeah.
If I see a hitchhiker carver in blood, there's no way I'm helping
them. Oh my god. Yeah, thats an image. Yeah. Well
they didn't get murdered, so there's that. That's good. Yeah. Yeah,
so regardless. On February first, nineteen eighty two, des Sturgis told
the coroner there was enough evidence to show that Lindy had cut her child's throat
in the family car and that Michael had been an accessory. The next day,
coroner Galvin admitted most of the evidence was circumstantial, but he thought that
a jury might be able to properly assess guilt, so Lindy was charged with
murder and Michael was charged as an accessory to murder. After the fact,
what the fuck happened to their kids? Yeah? Oh my god. So
Galvin initially didn't share all of his findings at the end of his inquest because
he didn't want to bias the muchil jury. What the fuck Well, he
didn't want to buy us like the public, although the public was already like
that, which b yeah, yeah, but he felt totally fine sending a
report to the prosecutor of the case in which he stated that he thought they
were guilty and that a dingo is not responsible. One of the reasons he
didn't think a dingo was responsible was because of the way that the jumpsuit in
the diaper that Wally found were laid out to which I say because Frank Morris
literally laid them out after handling them. Great point forgot about that. He
also in this report confirmed that there was no evidence linking Azaria's brothers to the
case, so that the rumor should be dispelled, like because some people,
oh ye remember were saying that they thought the son's killed her, which was
not true at all. Yeah, but in this report Galvin said she died
of extensive and fatal wounds to the neck, despite having no body to confirm
that this is how she died. And then he also acknowledged there was no
motive for the murder and even went as far to say that the witnesses described
Lindy and Azaria's relationship as positive, but quote, the killing of a child
by a mother is not uncommon happening end quote to which I say, fuck
you, And it's usually by crazy people too well, So like, yeah,
if there was evidence of something going on and she wasn't this her third
kid, They've been through this, like yeah, And all the witnesses were
saying like, no, they were fine because usually if you're someone with from
what I have heard, women with postpartum tend to tell somebody, hey,
I want to kill my children, and then either people help or they don't.
People say that oh my god. Yeah I have a family member who
said that to a doctor and they're like no, oh my god, yeah,
I think they shouldn't kill h She wasn't charge of me for I mean,
did she get arrested like on the spot. No, it's just like
you put this person back with their baby that they just said they want to
kill. Nowadays, I think people are better about that. But yeah,
back in the day when we were kids, they were like, ah,
you're probably fine. Yeah, you're here, fried, You're you're not gonna
kill it. Gag, go ahead. Recently happened in New Hampshire. Yes,
yeah, so this moment, sorry, this is going down a tangent.
But this woman said to her husband and her doctor like, I want
to kill my children. She had at least three, I think she had,
like a really newborn baby. And the doctor said to her husband or
her therapist said to her husband, like, you can't leave her no,
and he she said to him, can you go to the store and grab
me whenever whatever, He left the house and she killed all of her children,
and as he got home, she tried to jump out the window and
kill herself but didn't. But all of her children are now dead. Did
he kill her? No, I would have, Oh my god, absolutely
would have. Oh my god. I would have gone to jail for the
rest of my life. Absolutely. Yeah. But anyways, postporum surreal It's
apparently that was not the case with Lude. Yeah. So anyways, of
course, Lindy and Michael pleaded not guilty and their bail was set at ten
grand that's it, yeah, for murder. Yeah, everything about Australia is
wild gets more wild. Also, of course, the media painted Lindy as
a murderer, which happens after you get charge bushit. People kind of assume
guilt when you're charged of the crime, which is ye Casey Anthony runs free.
So finding an unbiased jury would be really difficult because the media was basically
like, let's find out in this court case how Lindy killed her daughter.
Three months before the official trial began, news leaked that Lindy was pregnant.
Oh fuck, And on Monday, September thirteenth, nineteen eighty two, the
Chamberlain's trial began with a now seven month pregnant Lindy. Oh fuck. Twelve
Northern Territory residents were chosen as a jury, and despite the fact that the
Northern Territory had a comparatively high percentage of Indigenous people, the jury was entirely
Caucasian. I just want to throw that in there, because like, yeah,
how does that works. Yeah, So we've got two sides here,
the Crown prosecutor Ian Barker, trying to prove that the Chamberlain parents murdered Azaria,
and then the defense with John Phillips leading it, trying to prove that
the Chamberlains did not kill their trial Ian Barker claimed that Azaria's jumpsuit in the
fetal hemoglobe and stains found in the front seat of the car would prove Lindy
killed asarre end quote. The dingo story was a fanciful lie calculated to conceal
the truth, which is the child Azaria died by her mother's hand end quote.
Did anyone else see this dingo when it left the tent? Like everyone
else was only ninety feet away. Like, we'll get we'll get into the
witnesses. Okay, you just wait. The prosecution claimed that when Lindy took
Azaria and ate into bed, that she had actually gone into the Toronto and
split Azaria's throat with scissors then put her body in Michael's camera case. Really.
They also claim she made up the dingo story. And remember how he
said, like at one point during the search, which you mentioned too,
that Michael and Lindy left for fifteen to twenty minutes. Yes, this is
when the prosecution said that they hid the body, which was three miles away.
Yeah, in fifteen minutes, yeah, allegedly, so a six mile
round trip. Correct In fifteen minutes. Huh, and they took the car.
No, okay, man, you really should have been on the defense.
I seriously, I'm not even trying here were you when they Yeah?
Well, well not live. So the prosecution also said that dingoes don't attack
babies and there were no reports of dingos taking and killing a baby. What
do you mean dingos don't attack babies? If I just leave a baby in
the middle of a fucking pack of dingoes and walk away, am I supposed
to just pick aye? It'll be fine? What the fuck are we doing?
Well? Also, remember in the last episode that one investigator was like,
they couldn't carry a baby, let me hold sand away. Wait yeah,
which is again so dumb. So that forensic investigator James Cameron, the
one who started this entire second inquest and claimed that Lindy was guilty, presented
images of Azaria's jumpsuit under UV light, attempting to show the handprint that he
thought he saw in the blood on it. Yep. Other expert witnesses were
called, including some textile experts, that claimed her shirt had indeed or her
jumpsuit had indeed been cut by scissors or a knife, not by teeth just
the way that the fabric you know, curled away or Yeah. They also
got an odontologist, which is a forensic dentist, oh sick, who had
investigated two dozen dog attacks on humans and claim the bloodstains were not consistent with
a dingo attack and staid there'd be more bleeding. I don't. I have
no argument against that, Like I imagine you have no argument against him saying
that he's investigated dog attacks that this dingo attack didn't lineup. I mean they
have the same scientific name. That doesn't mean that, but they're different physically,
So why do they not have a different scientific name. Well, they
have like four different side I know, so like if they can't decide one,
I can't argue with that, you know, I guess. Yeah.
I mean they are technically by one source, the same animal, yea whatever,
by multiple sources, not just one source. But like, no,
I agree, I agree. Like obviously he's not a fucking dingo expert.
But over this guy claimed that a baby's head was too big for a dingo's
mouth. Okay, that's dumb. Remember that dingo scope in their mouth up
to niney degrees that's the same. Now, fuck damn it. Remember thyla
scene did not cause this. I'm still hoping. I'm saying not so shit.
So the pro execution also stated that there were no dingo hairs found at
the scene. And remember in the last episode I said that there were nine
hairs found. The prosecution said that they were identified to belong to a cat.
What did they have a cat? No? Okay, I don't know.
We're laughing because it's ridiculous, not because you know what I mean.
In the last episode you said that dingoes are closer to cats than dogs.
I did not biologically, just like if you were to compare them to an
animal. Okay, yeah, but like DNA wise, they are not more
closely really to do the cat because they can hybridize with dogs. See if
a dingo had the same scientific name as a common house cat, that would
be even wilder. Yeah. And so I know just a little bit about
how to identify hair by different animals, yep. And you're using a lot
of different things. It has to do with how hair is made up.
So you would use like either the scales of the hair or the medulla or
medulla which is like the inside of the hair. And Nick, I'll show
you some of what I'm talking about from my notes. But different animals have
like the inside shaft of their hair looks different of their microscope depending on what
animal it is. Ye, but depending on the picture that is taken and
the way that you're looking at it under a microscope, it can look really
different. And then also animals have different hair across their body. Yeah,
so you also have to have knowledge of like where on the body the hair
might have been from, or you would have to know like, hey,
I'm looking at a dingo, this is what their hair looks like at each
different part of their body, You know what I mean. Yeah, Also,
if the follicle is not attached to the hair, there's no like DNA
evidence that you could get from it. Oh, there's no DNA in hair
if you don't have the follicle. Oh, I had no idea. And
then, of course, the prosecution used the blood analysis from Joy and said
the way that the blood flowed was consistent with someone sitting in the front seat.
However, Joy had destroyed the blood sample so they could not be retested.
Fucking idiot. But Joy's boss said that her findings were legitimate, and
other experts for the prosecution said that they agree, and Lindy this whole time
had continually been saying that Azaria had been wearing a jacket on that night,
which had never been found. So the prosecution was using this fact to say
that Lindy was a liar because the jacket had never been found. And Frank
Morris, one of the initial investigators, the one that moved the jumpsuit and
diaper, said that he didn't ever recall Lindy saying that Aria Azaria had been
wearing a jacket. Really yeah, convenient. Yeah. I also remember they
didn't take witness names. Also, remember it was super cold out and not
having kid and jacket would be weird. Yeah. Well then they'd be like,
she's a terrible mother and hates throwing your jacket. Yeah. So then
the defense, of course, was claiming Azaria's death was an extent, So
they brought on two experts in biology who stated that the testing methods used by
Joy could have produced false positives for fetal hemoglobin and the bloodstains could have been
from a wide range of things over the years before this had all been investigated.
Fair I wish we were talking about a case in America right now,
because I know that specific laws of what makes somebody an ex expert, but
I don't know how this is determined in Australia. From what we've heard so
far, it's not a high bar, not a high standard. Well,
during an inquest, it can be anybody, but this is like a legitimate
trial. Now. I would love to be an expert at an inquest.
If anyone out there is ever gonna be doing an inquest, what would you
be an expert? I have no idea anything I want. Apparently yeah,
I got, according to this story, expert. Yeah. Things to combat
the odentologists saying that a dingo couldn't carry a nine week old baby head in
its mouth, dumb, One of the biologists for the defense literally just pulled
up a picture of a dingo holding a baby sized doll by the head,
with the canine teeth extending to the doll's ears, and the guy in the
prosecution was basically like, you got me. You in this one totally disputed
that. All right, We're just not going to use this anymore. Yeah.
And then the defense brought on an expert in dental surgery and medicine from
Melbourne who said that the damage to Asari's jumpsuit found by Wally was indeed consistent
with dingo teeth and in the previous episode, we talked about some physical differences
between domestic dogs and dingoes, but one thing I did not mention was that
dingoes have longer jaws that opened, wider and larger teeth than a domestic dog,
and their teeth are considered more sharp than that of a domestic dog as
well, and they're evenly spaced throughout the mouth with a slight gap between the
teeth, so they're capable of using scissor like motion. Yes, yeah,
when they close their mouth, it's like a scissor almost. Yeah, Okay.
The defense also brought on a dingo expert, Les Harris to the stand,
who said that if a dingo was to take a prey item of Azaria's
size, it would likely grab the entire head, close its jaws to make
the animal immobile, shake their head to quote, break the neck of the
prey, all which was highly unlikely to produce a lot of blood. The
defense also attempted to discredit James Cameron by breaking up a past case he worked
on in nineteen seventy two, which was a murder trial with three suspects in
which James gave an estimated time of death of the victim, which was pivotal
in the prosecution's case. But then the case was later dismissed because james estimation
was deemed incorrect And I didn't look into that case because it would truly take
us down a whole other rabbit hole. But what I did want to mention
for just a second was that as a forensic investigator, like if I was
to go on a case where I had to determine something like that, the
only time a time of death can accurately be determined is if someone dies with
a doctor or medical professional. Just so clear, we still don't have confirmation
that she's dead at all. Correct. Yeah, Okay, but this is
just like going back to James's whole thing, where like his previous case,
because he was saying, like the time of death of a person, Yeah,
so's he's assuming when her throat was cut allegedly. No, I'm talking
about the other case where he convicted three people. Three people, Okay,
yeah, yeah, so he can't as a forensic investigator unless he was there
to like witness it or somebody else claimed it as a forensic investigator, you
can only give an estimated time since death, and there are a ton of
factors that go into determining that. But because of this case in Azaria and
we're like, we don't even have a body. I won't get fully into
it, but basically, as forensic investigators were not able to give a time
of death. So he's been proven to be full of shit once already at
least yeah, okay, correct, that was sorry, That was the whole
point of that once in the court of law where he probably had to swear
that he's going to tell the truth. Yeah okay, and maybe he thought
he was correct, but he can't, like his job, he legally cannot
make those assumptions, and he has already done it. Well, I don't
know if it was legal or not back then, but like in terms of
scientifically, he's not able to say a time okay, yeah, okay,
okay. So the defense also called eyewitnesses from that night, including Sally Lowe,
who had been hanging out with a family at the barbecue area when they
heard Azaria cry and when Lindy went to investigate, and Sally's testimony revealed that
when Lindy left to put Azaria and aid into bed. She was only gone
for six to ten minutes, and then Lindy returned and Sally confirmed that they
had all heard a baby's cry coming from the Chamberlain's tent, and when she
was cross examined, she was like, yes, it was definitely a baby,
definitely coming from their tent. And remember in the last episode, I
really briefly mentioned that a couple had been sleeping in the tent next to the
Chamberlain's campsite and they heard a dingo growl. Their names were Bill and Judy
West, and Judy was called to the stand and confirmed that she had heard
Lindy cry quote a dingo's got my baby, and just that was just five
to ten minutes after they heard that dingo grawl outside of their tent. Judy
also stated that earlier that night she had chased away a dingo that had grabbed
her twelve year old daughter's arm and started to pull on it. So this
seems like that the case should be over. You started talking to witnesses who
were there, and they're like, dingo's trying to guess were there. Yes,
So then Derek Off, if you remember the ranger who was present that
night that Asari went missing. Was also called as a witness, and he's
not an idiot so far. No, Derek's great. Yeah. He confirmed
that he had seen dingo tracks exiting the Chamberlain's tent and that they had found
an impression in the ground that had a knitted pattern in it, which was
consistent with the alleged jacket that the baby had been wearing that night that was
not found yet. So clearly Linda has faked all of this somehow, and
we need to figure out how. Lindy. Clearly Lindy has faked all of
this, and we need to figure out how. And then there's more.
Another witness, Amy would Occur, was called to the stand. She confirmed
that Lindy and Michael had left for fifteen to twenty minutes while everyone else was
searching for Azaria, which the prosecution claimed was when Lindy and Michael were hiding
Asaria's body, but Amy said she was the one that actually told the couple
to go on that walk, like to get away from everything and kind of
like relax. Yeah, yeah, it makes sense, And she was saying
like the reason that they didn't join the search is because they wanted to be
with their two living children, like they don't want to leave their other kids.
Yeah, which is fair. And also, what are you gonna do
take your two little kids to search for their dead sister? No, I
mean personally I would leave one parent and then the other parent would help.
But yes, they are. Again, we mentioned in the last episode in
the process of grieving and freaking the fuck out that their kid was just taken
by a dingo. Yep, that the mother all happened allegedly, Yeah,
allegedly. It'd be pretty freaky. So then another witness, Wally, the
man who had found Azarius clothing when he was hacking with his family on August
twenty fourth, also appeared in court for the defense. Let me guess.
He said the pictures that are the photos were just not correct at all.
Yeah, oh my god, good job. Yeah. He criticized Frank Morris
for handling the clothing and said that the photos taken did not accurately depict how
he found this because that they were literally placed by Frank. Yeah. So
it's been bothering me so much to read the prosecution saying like, oh,
the clothes look like they were a place. It's like, yeah, because
you're guy replaced them. They were placed. Yeah, he didn't do the
investigation correctly. So. Also, Lindy was called to the stand by the
defense and her lawyer asked her to hold up her hand to what James Cameron
was alleging was an adult human's handprint, And not only was Lindy's index finger
too long for that to be her handprint, but the print showed four fullangies,
and human hands only have three fulangies in each finger. What the fuck?
Where the what the fuck is about to happen? Here? S?
What the fuck is about to happen? Is it the monkeys? Is there
some kind of ape in Australia that's taking kids? No, not that I
know of. That never comes up again. So that was it. Also,
they just so they find a handprint and now it's done. They're like,
oh, yeah, it's not human. We're the aliens are out there.
Man, it's possible it wasn't even a handprint that it was just like
a weird pattern that he thought was that's most likely what it is. Yeah,
so it's probably not aliens. I'm so sorry. It could be though,
we don't know. Anyways. Michael was also called to the stand and
was questioned as to why he called the Tsaria's death quote the will of God,
to which he was like, I'm religious, so everything is God's will.
But he also didn't recall making the statement, so that was kind of
it. I mean, it's a fair answer, yeah, I being like,
hey, why do you think God did this? Well, God does
everything. Yeah, it's just kind of like such an easy answer, like,
yeah, I'm a minister, not to if you noticed, but I
believe in God. So this case was called the Trial of the Century,
and I'm not living in Australia, but from what I understand, this is
like the biggest case that's ever been televised, if not like one of the
biggest. Really, oh my god, yeah this is you wait. So
Ian Barker, who was leading the prosecution, said that they indeed did not
have a motive for why Linda or Michael would kill Zaria, but it wasn't
their job to prove that, and all they had to do was prove that
a murder was committed. He went on in his closing statements, saying to
the jury that quote, how could you possibly convict the Dingo on this evidence?
And the case against the Dingo would be laughed out of court because of
the apparent lack of evidence against the dingo, noting a lack of dingo hair
or drag marks by the tent, the fact that no one actually saw a
dingo caring a baby since Linda could not confirm that that's what she saw,
and the relatively undamaged condition of Azaria's jumpsuit. But there's also no evidence against
humans either. Yeah, there's paw prince. I don't know why they just
like conveniently acknowledge that, and all the witnesses that say that there were dingo
there, Yeah, messing up kids. Yeah. So, John Phillips,
leading the defense, said that while prosecutors were not responsible for proving motive,
that Lindy was a doting mother and was not suffering from postnatal depression or anything
else that would have led her to harm her children. So on October twenty
eighth, Great Day, nineteen eighty two, Justice Mearhead, which is the
judge overseeing the trial, told the jury, which I've never heard this happening
before, to remember that the defense was not challenging that blood had been found
in the car, just that the tests may not have accurately proved the blood
belonged to a child, and that it could have come from many sources,
and that the Chamberlains were not responsible for proving what it was or how it
got there. He also told the jury the judge told the jury to remember
that Sally Low had heard a baby's cry coming from the tent, and if
true, would disprove the prosecution's claim that Azaria had been killed in the Toronto
before then. So the judges directly telling the jury like, hey, this
is all all bullshit kind of yeah, like he was really like for the
defense, it's to me, it seems like the prosecution is going like way
overboard with their evidence and it's making and the judge like this is ridiculous.
Yeah. Yeah. So the jury deliberated for six and a half hours and
people are fucking stupid, and they delivered their verdict on October twenty ninth,
nineteen eighty two. They found Lindy and Michael guilty for the murder of Azaria.
Chamberlain, that's so fucking stupid, And they said. The jury had
actually been split for quite some time, with four members for a conviction,
four for acquittal, and four undecided, but one juror later told the press.
It all came down to whether or not a dingo was responsible, which
does That's not that's that's not how it works. Yeah, I know,
but is that crazy, Like, well, it wasn't a dingo, so
I had to be her. Also, why was it not a dinggo?
I know it still led to it could have been a dingo, but yeah,
it's just crazy to me that they like it seems that they had two
options, either Lindy or Dingo, and they're like, well, it wasn't
Dingo, so had to be Lindy. But couldn't you just say like it
was neither, Like we didn't enough evidence to prove e there? No,
I mean, the dingo has no part of this decision at all. You
don't have to say what happened. You just say that she didn't do You
just have to prove guilt of the crime that is being charged. Yeah,
and there's no way they Oh wow, that's that's wild. Isn't that shocking?
That's so fucking dumb. I really really hope that they didn't kill this
kid because I don't want to be wrong again. So Michael was sentenced to
an eighteen month suspended sentence with good behavior. What this means he did not
go to prison for murder, for accessory to murder because because of your own
kid, because you are swing in size. Well no, but if we're
going to charge them, like, what are we doing? Because the judge
I think was trying to give him the light of sentence he could, so
he gave him eighteen month suspended sentence with good behavior. But as for eight
month pregnant Lindy, the judge said, quote, you have been found guilty
of murder by verdict of a jury. There is only one sentence I can
pass on you. The sentence is you will be in prison with hard labor
for life, which that makes sense. Yes. So obviously, like Lindy
wasn't lucky that she was convicted of murder, but I think she was lucky
that she was convicted at this time because the death penalty had been banned in
Australia's territories in only nineteen seventy three. So it is extremely likely that if
it had not been banned until after that, that she would have been sentenced
to death. Can you imagine? No. Also, as we're recording this,
I'm wearing a shirt that says let the women do the work, which
is from a podcast one of my favorites, true Cime Obsessed, and they
cover like true crime documentaries and a toy. Twenty two, they did a
series called Let the Women. It's all about amazing women who have done things
like exonerate people from Death's Row in the US and like solving murder cases.
So if that's up your alley, I can link to an episode in our
description about let's holt me do the work. Go check it out, Yeah,
because there's some really good ones about people being taken off death Row who
were wrongfully convicted. Happens, happens, a lot, happens, more than
movie would like. Once it's too many times. Lindy was sent to a
maximum security prison at Barrama Prison outside of Darwin, where she was one of
six female inmates. That's it, that's it. Wow. In less than
a month into her sentence, on November seventeenth, nineteen eighty two, she
gave birth to a baby girl. Oh fuck, they made up a name
for her. She didn't get to name her own kid. No, she
and Michael made up a new name. Oh god, okay. They named
their daughter Kalia. And they said, or Lindy specifically said, quote let
them try to make something out of that. They literally made up a name.
Well yeah, because people with tsaria you know what they mean. So
she was like, fuck it, we'll make it up. So Lyndy and
Michael appealed their convictions for a number of reasons. So just two days after
giving birth to Kalia, Lindy was released on bail, what which, of
course made the general public at large piss that she was released at all,
some of which saying quote, why should she be given special privileges for having
a baby. Yes, And they got like sent to live with their church
in like a like isolated area for a bit, and their church was harassed
really harshly, with one instance of a Seventh day Adventist church having a sign
put out front by somebody reading quote dingo pops for sale applied within So they're
beating it was rough. However, their appeals were rejected in a federal court
three to zero in April of nineteen eighty three on all grounds. I'm still
blown away by the fact that they got out on bail for murder. Yeah,
well, so her appeal was rejected, and then ten months later,
in February of nineteen eighty four, Australia's High Court refused to set aside her
conviction on a three to two vote, so she was sent back to prison.
I'm still just shocked that they would let her out. I don't know
how any of this works. I mean, clearly somebody somewhere agrees that she
did not do this. They're letting her out, Like if they really thought
that she was a murderer, they would not do that. So after this,
the country was deeply divided on this issue, and Lindy in prison was
so inundated with mail that her prison couldn't keep up. So she started writing
a monthly bulletin to people who subscribe to it. She has a fucking blog,
well in pretty much prison. Yeah, kind of Australia is wild,
weird man. Now, remember in the last episode I said that there was
an instance of a dingo at Ularu grabbing a three year old kid by the
head and attempting to drag it away. Yes, so the defense had tried
to find that family for the trial but was unable to do so. But
in early nineteen eighty four the family came forward and said yes, this did
happen. So Derek Hoff, after the family came Forward wrote a letter to
the National Times newspaper conquerred inquiry into the evidence presented in the trial, and
in the letter he said he's heard dingo experts state that a dingo wouldn't enter
a tent and attack humans, but he had lived at Ularu for sixteen years
and said he knew the dingoes in the area were conditioned quote by into the
people, so their behavior was unique and not fully understood by anybody. He
said he didn't have any doubt that a dingo could attack children, and a
dingo carrying a baby was feasible. He ended the letter by saying, I
don't think any of us should be comfortable with the present situation. No,
and that this is a fucking park ranger. Yeah, who's trying to get
this woman out of jail. Yeah. He's not a lawyer, No,
just a guy who knows about dingo. Yeah, who's like, yes,
this happened. Oh wow wow. So, in response to Derek's letter,
a group of thirty one scientists signed an open letter disputing the findings that Joy
Coole had found fetal hemoglobin in the Chamberlain's car in June of nineteen eighty five.
The Chamberlain's attorney, Stuart Tipple, began a media campaign for the family,
which led to the forming of the Chamberlain Innocence Committee. The group called
for the Northern Territory authorities to launch a Royal Commission aka a public inquiry into
the case, and they also released a forty page document called the Blue Book.
The Blue Book contained new evidence that the family's attorney had gathered with his
own forensic team, and it also had an application for an inquiry into the
case. Within the blue Book, the claims of Aaria's clothing being cut by
scissors was debunked because a professor in textile sciences from Kansas had run some studies
where he gave infant clothing to dingoes and they displayed the same cuts the Asarius
jumpsuit had. So also, the nine animal hairs found that the prosecution claim
belonged to a cat. Yeah, the blue books said two were human,
one was inconclusive, and the remaining six belonged to a k nine said did
they even look at the hair? Dude? Well, it's subjective, right,
you're yeah, you're right, the right. More like, if you
guys want to google like different types of animal hair under microscopes. It is
not easy. So for example, in my class where we were learning about
this, we had a quiz on determining, like we had six different pictures
and each one belonged to a different animal, and my teacher gave us like
a list of what it could possibly be. None of us said the same
thing. Good, all said different. And obviously none of us are experts.
But like that's how subjective it can be, you know. Was that
kind of a points she was trying to make, Like yes, yeah,
it was like, hey, this does mean shit. Yeah, okay,
no, it doesn't mean shit, but like it is subjective and you gotta
be like you have to rely on experts for this, yeah, okay.
So also the blood spray that was found in the family car, yep,
the blue Book claimed the quote blood was actually a combination of a sticky beverage
like soda along with paint spray from the manufacturing of the car. Really,
So back to Joy's blood tests where she claimed that she found the fetal hemoglobin.
She had us an anti serum, and an anti serum is blood containing
specific antibodies in these tests to determine that fetal hemoglobin was present, but the
German manufacturer of the anti serum said it was not capable of determining these results
because it quote didn't respond exclusively to fetal hemoglobin and could react to the presence
of other proteins. So everything is just not reliable. Yeah, which doesn't
that make you wonder like, what else did she provide to people, or
like her lab provide as evidence and it wasn't even correctly done. Oh fuck?
Isn't that scary? Yeah? Yeah, And that's kind of something we
talk about in the wildlife forensics course or program I'm taking, is like,
if you are sending evidence to a lab, make sure that the lab you're
sending it to is reliable, Like you have to figure that out which ones
are reliable not reliable. But there's just like unreliable labs out there. So
yeah, and you just mentioned that they just went back to the car and
did these tests again, right, Yeah. Why didn't they do that before
when they were like, oh, like this evidence has been destroyed, we
can't test it again. Why don't they just go back to the car and
take more at the first time. Maybe they thought it was two to grade.
I don't know, maybe, Okay, Well, I mean the first
time. But on November twelfth, Soda nineteen eighty five, the Northern Territory
government rejected the application for an inquiry and this is how they responded. Quote.
This campaign has had the intended effect the building up of antagonism towards the
Northern Territory Government, which it seems to portray us hard, cruel and lacking
in compassion. At stake is law and order and faith in the due processes
of the legal system, recognized as the fairest in the world. Quote.
So basically they were like stumping above us. I think you could literally copy
and paste that as a response to that, like, yes, we have
no faith in you, and you are too hard and not compassionate. Also,
fuck compassion. It's just a matter of the facts, and they're not
getting the facts. Well, it seems like they're rejecting it just because they're
like, we can't admit that we're wrong or else. You guys, Yeah,
because they invested so much fucking time and money into this and it's the
most what was it, you say, was the most publicized trial in the
history of the country. They have to be right. They have to be
If they're wrong, the country explodes. So maybe not physically, but you
know, emotionally, people get pissed. Yeah. So two weeks later,
the government also rejected an application for Lindy to be released early. Why they's
like, nah, screw you want the flock. But there is another turn
in this case that is even more wild, thanks to a British guy who
could not follow rules. Oh those are fun. Two months later, on
Sunday, January twenty sixth nineteen eighty six, thirty one year old David Brett
was alone at Ularu's National Park and had the intent of climbing Uluru, which
we now know as the last episode is a big no no, don't do
this, no do it. So at this point, the park accommodations had
changed since Azari's death, and the campground where she died was no longer open,
so David waited until later in the day to start climbing because it was
super hot. But as he set out, a park ranger told him that
camping on Ularu was not allowed because it was late. So the guy was
like, you're definitely not going to make it. Come back down. Yeah,
So David said he'd followed the customs of the traditional owners, but later
that night, at seven forty PM. Local indigenous people saw him climbing in
a forbidden area and reported him to the park authorities, so rangers set out
to kick him out, but they were unable to find him. A week
later, other tourists were hiking around the base of Olaru when they found David's
body. Oh fuck, while he had been climbing, he had fallen two
hundred meters to his death, and his body had been scavenged by animals.
And on February second, rangers set out to gather all of his remains and
like the items from his bag and stuff like that. And this site was
one hundred and fifty meters from where Wally had found Azaria's clothing years before.
It is now that I would like to share one of the phrases my master's
advisor, Susan Underkoffler, shared with us, which is the absence of evidence
is not evidence of absence. Because as they were searching for David's bones,
the park rangers found a half buried white baby's jacket motherfucker's with stiff sleeves and
a button hanging from the neck. If you remember, the prosecution had claimed
that Lindy was a liar because She said that Azaria had been wearing a jacket
like this in the night that she was killed, but the jacket had never
been found until now. Of this jacket not only showed that Lindy was not
a liar, but it also explained why no saliva had been found on Azari's
jumpsuit, because this jacket would have absorbed any saliva from the dingko's mouth.
Motherfuckers. So, twelve days after the discovery of the jacket, a Royal
commission into the case was announced and Lindy was released from prison on remission and
was given unrestricted access to legal advisors. So on February seventh, nineteen eighty
six, Lindy went home to her family, including her now four year old
daughter, and in May of nineteen eighty seven, Justice Trevor Morling released a
three hundred and seventy nine page report saying that the prosecution's case relied heavily on
experts saying that a dingo wouldn't enter a tent and attack a child, but
he said they had not taken into account that Uluru dingoes were not like typical
dingoes. Not only did park rangers say that it was likely to have happened,
but they had previously expressed concerns about an attack of this exact nature happening.
Also, the the prosecution assumed that in five to ten minutes, Lindy
would have gone into the tent without Aidan following her, changed into track pants,
taken Azari to the car, killed her, which also would somehow have
to have have time to let Azaria bleed out and then hide a Zaria's body,
clean up the car, change out of the pants, get a can
of beans, go to the tent, leave blood in the tent, get
aiden, and go back to the barbecue area, all while the prosecution could
not provide a reason why she would have done this. I mean this again,
this is all shit. We've already known through all the evidence that you've
provided. Yeah, why why did it take this many people? Why did
they not put this all together in the first place. Yeah, that seems
like something that should be looked into. So Justice Morling also said, quote
it is extraordinary that the person's at the barbecue area at the time of and
immediately after Azaria's disappearance, accepted Missus Chamberlain's story and noted nothing about her appearance
and conduct, suggesting that she had suddenly killed her daughter end quote and quote
I am far from being persuaded that miss Chamberlain's account of having seen a dingo
near the tent was false and that quote. If the evidence before the commission
had been given at this trial, the trial judge would have been obligated to
direct the jury to acquit the chamberlain's end quote. Other people saw the dingoes,
but also that was evidence. Like in the trial that lady was like,
I heard a dingo growld and the baby cried, and Sally was like,
Lindy was with me. We heard a baby cry. There were dingo
prints outside the tent. Yep. Everything about this like seems as straightforward as
it can be. Moreover, Justice Morling said it was entirely reasonable that a
dingo had taken Azaria with the intent to consume her. So following this,
the Northern Territory authorities offered the Chamberlains a pardon, which would not clear them
of their guilt, to which, of course, the Chamberlains were like,
no, we didn't do this, so don't just give us a pardon say
that they would be acquitted. Yeah, yeah, So finally, in September
of nineteen eighty eight, the Northern Territory Court of Criminal Appeals agreed with Justice
Morling and quashed all convictions against the chamberlains. So fucking dumb nineteen eighty eight.
Do you know how many people lost their jobs over this? Hopefully at
least one. I don't think a single person did, oh, Frank did?
I bet? I bet? Not a single person got any kind of
recommand for this. They sought restitution for their suffering and lost wages from the
Northern Territory government in the amount of four million, but Lindy got nine hundred
thousand and Michael got four hundred thousand, which is much lower than they requested.
Yeah. A spokesperson for the Attorney General later stated that the reason the
amount was so much lower was because, quote, the government had no legal
obligation to make a payment at all. That's bullshit, that's fucked up,
which, of course, like no amount would make up for everything that happened,
kenvincing entire country that someone killed their child when they didn't. Yeah,
And luckily the public was like, that's fucked up. So they finally were
like, hey, you guys are messing up. Yeah. So, because
the conviction was overturned. This meant that the second inquest into the case was
incomplete, so a third inquest started in December of nineteen ninety five, but
it was less involved, and in the end the coroner said that Michael and
Lindy were not involved in Azaria's disappearance in any way, but he didn't feel
that it could be proven that a dingo did it, so he said it
was an open finding and the cause of Azaria's death was listed as unknown,
and he clarified that speculation could still not disprove that Lindy and Michael were innocent.
That's that's fucking stupid. Just say that is stupid, Like I understand
not being able to say that a dingo did it, Like, okay,
you can't. No one truly knows for sure how that baby died, but
that the obvious answer is that a dingo did it. So that's pretty much
it in the case until two thousand and four. What the fuck? I
still think two pages? What when a seventy eight year old man Frank claimed
to be at Ularu on August seventeenth, nineteen eighty when he and two friends
encountered a dingo carrying a baby? What? What? Tied the fuck out.
This motherfucker, This motherfucker. Two thousand and four, twenty four years
later, he claimed that he shot the dingo and then he and his friends
washed the blood off the baby. Then realized that they would be tampering with
evidence, so they put her body into a bag, and then Frank said
he left and his other two friends said that they would take the baby to
the police. But then he said that he didn't think that they did that,
and that he thought his friends buried Assaria in their backyard. That is
so fucked up. And he knew about this, Yeah, he knew about
it. It was the most famous case in Australian history. Oh my god,
why did you pick up Penny during that You were so distraughting to hold
somebody? No, because she came running over because I was screaming. So
he said he didn't come forth sooner becau he didn't want to get in trouble
for discharging a firearm at a national park, to which that is not what
people would be concerned about. You dumb motherfucker. You shot a dingle with
a baby in its mouth. You're fine, You're so fine. I don't
understand it. I don't get this. I don't get so Conveniently, Frank's
two friends had passed away, so there was no way to prove or disprove
his claim. And conveniently he's not part of the people that buried the body
allegedly. Yeah, so investigators had doubts of the authenticity of the story,
and ultimately, like his story was completely dismissed, which is fair, Like,
I mean, did they not ask him where the body was buried?
Well, he said, like he pointed out his friend's house, but like,
obviously it's friends of were dead, so somebody knew own the house,
and the new guy that owned the house said, you can only look in
my backyard if you can prove that there's evidence that it's here. Fair.
Yeah, probably be somewhere. Yeah. Yeah, so they didn't. I'd
rather not have the garment digging in my backyard. Yeah, so nothing really
happened there. Also, like no one at during that night heard a gunshot,
you know what I mean. Yeah, and there was three hundred people
searching for this baby, Like it'd be pretty obvious who you should tell,
and people would have heard that. Why would you lie about something like that?
People are weird. It's how weird do you want that you're gonna fucking
lie about shooting a dingo that had this famous baby. Oh you're really not
gonna like this next story? Oh my god. It's Then in two thousand
and five, a twenty five year old woman came forth to police, Oh
my god, no way, saying that she was Azary no way, no
way, because she was an orphan, thought that she looked like Lindy and
said that she had flashbacks to being a nine week old baby being carried by
dingoes and that she she said she had marks on her hands from dogs,
but that her foster mom would never explain why that she had like bite marks
from dogs in her hands. Australia, what are you doing? These claims
were dismissed. Yes, yes, damn it. I wouldn't believe these stories,
damn it. I mean, like it would have been cool if it
had been Zaria, but like there's no what so can we do twenty three
and me anyway, just to just to find out? I know, I
wondered that too. I was like, was there any DNA like confirmation?
Maybe not? Yeah, well it was two thousand and five, so like
maybe could have been done. But now we could do it easily. Let's
go find this lady. She's still what forty something right? Yeah? Maybe?
Well no, I don't think the family was interested in that. But
what if? What if? Though? What if? So the Chamberlains continue
to fight for Azaria's cause of death to be from a dingo attack not left
as unknown, and in February of twenty twelve, a fourth inquest into Azaria's
death was started based on new information about dingo behavior at Fraser Island. Between
two thousand and one twenty eleven, a nine year old boy was killed by
dingoes, a four year old was severely bitten, and a three year old
suffered a puncture wound on the leg. And if you remember from the last
episode, Fraser Island holds the most quote pure dingos because they haven't hybridized with
domestic dogs as much as mainland dingos. So the nine year old boy was
killed in April twenty ninth, two thousand and one, after being stalked by
two dingoes and he had tripped and fell near a campsite and the dingoes basically
descended upon him killed him. The boy's younger brother and father ran to the
scene to try to help and the younger brother then was severely maul to the
point that he had to be airlifted to a hospital. Wow. But he
ultimately survived, and the two dingoes responsible were later found and shot by police.
And this was the first fatal attack on a human by dingo's sin Cesaria,
but there were four hundred reports of minor dingo attacks on Fraser Island alone.
Wow. Also, there was a study published in twenty eleven called the
Diet of the Dingo knes Lupis Dingo in Northeastern Australia with comments on its conservation
implications which I will link in the episode description, which concluded that quote these
results suggest that dingoes prey considerably on large to medium sized macropods in our study
area Northeastern Australia. What's a macropod end quote like walabi's and kangaroos. Oh
okay. Anyways, So the point of mentioning that study was that this study
confirmed that dingos do eat larger animals. Obviously they knew that already, didn't
they And like even the attacks like the nine year old being killed, they
already knew that the dingoes in this area were attacking people. Yeah, they
attacked people that day in that campsite. Yeah, I think this. I
don't see what additional evidence this would pro well. So the nine year old
boy died on Fraser Island, which is different from exactly it less evidence in
that than there is of the people being attacked that day at the same campsite.
Like, yes, I don't understand how this is new evidence and why
this matters. Yeah. So in June of twenty twelve, the coroner in
charge of the final inquest announced that she believed Zaria had died as a result
of being attacked by Dingo and apologized to the chamberlains for all they had endured,
and her death certificate was mended. I still don't like it. By
this time, Michael and Lindy had actually split up and remarried. Lindy released
an autobiography titled Through My Eyes, explaining that their divorce was because of issues
the couple had prior to Azaria's death. So Lindy currently lives with her husband
Rick and now gives seminars and lectures on a variety of topics. She's written
a few books and appeared in a documentary about the case, and there are
a ton of things created from this story, including a movie where Lindy is
portrayed by Meryl Streep no shit, in a nineteen eighty eight movie called to
Cry in the Dark. And also there have been plays made about this and
like some really intense museum displays which includes the family's car. Oh, no
shit. Yeah. And some people are like, oh, she's profiting off
of the case. It's like, yeah, fuck you, guys, you
made her life terrible. Let her profit off of her child dying in and
gets put through this, Like, let them profit off it? Absolutely,
Yeah. Yeah. Michael Chamberlain actually died in twenty seventeen from a year long
battle with leukemia at the age of seventy two. Oh wow. And let's
end their story with a quote from Lindy's twenty fifteen book, A Dingo's Got
My Baby quote. Sometimes for hours at a time, I would sit up
at night just holding Azaria in my arms and cuddling her. How glad I
am that I did. I've got that special time to look back on.
She knew she was wanted, She loved her family, She responded to them
all very happily, and despite her tender age, it was obvious that she
knew she was loved. End quote. This whole thing is fucked. It's
so sad. I like our normal episodes where it's just hey, animal attacks
person, Hey goat strink people's pee. Yeah, stuff like that, Like
that's that's a lot better than Oh, we're gonna go into a political and
fucking justdicial name. Yeah, yeah, fucking stupid. So what did Australia
learn anything from this and change anything? Did their laws change? Well,
so if any of you follow us on Instagram in this past week, you
will have seen us post a video of a dingo biting woman on a beach,
and that happened on Fraser Island like this month, that happened yesterday,
I think yep. Well, at least an article came out yesterday saying that
that dingo has since been put down and another is being closely watched following a
string of recent attacks on adults and children. So kind of because I mean
where we started was Derek was saying to people, hey, these dingos are
really aggressive. Can I start like calling them? Yeah? And the government
was like absolutely not. And now in Australia, from what I understand,
there's a big debate going on of like should we start culling dingos And the
government says no, you guys just need to be more careful about wildlife,
But people want to call the dingos, So maybe I'm yes, So people
absolutely need to be more carefubout wildlife, that's true. But when you're just
like on a beach and you get attacked, I think that one can probably
be killed, you know, like problem individuals. That's I feel like killing
problem individuals different from culling like entire populations. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Well, especially because Fraser Island, like they're a conserved population because they're
so pure dingo you know. So that's a that's a tough one. But
we'll see how that develops because that's like really new. That's within the past
week. So well that is it. Well fuck those two full episodes.
Holy, that's two long episodes too. Yeah, oh my god, right,
an hour and a half already, there's a lot to cut. There's
a lot to cut. Yeah, I cut a lot of the last one
too, but it's like an hour fifteen I think. So. Also,
I'm going to backtrack on something I said last week. Oh fuck, oh,
would you mess up? I had said we were gonna do so this
was released a week after the previous episode, episode fifty five. I said
that the next week we were gonna have another episode. I lied, We're
gonna do two weeks out. I'm so sorry. But the reason that we're
doing that is because I have someone close to a recent case that I'm asking
questions for our next episode. You have a source, so I want to
give us ample time to ask him some questions and get like good knowledge of
what had happened so we can talk about it to the best of our ability.
Thank you so much for listening to episode fifty six of Get Out Alive.
To see information and links for the episode, check out the episode description,
or check out a website get at a live podcast dot com where you
can also get merch. Get out a live podcast dot com slash shop.
We're having org Orca merch is coming. Orkam Merch is coming, Orca merch
is coming. That was really hard to say, but patrons are voting on
it. We're getting it done. It's the perfect time for it, as
our Orca overlords are taking over votes. I for one to welcome them.
They will soon make it to land and we're all screwed. It's only a
matter of time. It's only a matter of time. If you like this
episode, you can rate us five stars on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and
Podchaser, and then subscribe wherever you're listening. You can join us on Patreon,
where we have different tiers for different benefits, like we talked about the
beginning. Patreon dot com slash Catdali podcast. You can follow us on Instagram
at Canada Live Pod, follow us on Facebook at get out a Live podcast.
Follow us on TikTok get out a Live. It's mostly me just at
this point taking videos of me taking depression walks and talk about chicks. That's
what ttok it has taking a turn. I don't know what's happening. And
follow me on Twitter at the Angreologist. I have no souci to media.
Do not come follow me. Thank you so much for our intro music.
Josh Walsh, my second grade husband, and to his brother Jesse Walsh for
normally editing our episodes. Right now, it's nick because Jesse and Josh are
on a road trip cross country, but they'll be back. Can't wait,
and we will be back in two weeks for a new animal attack story. Boose