WEBVTT

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Alone. Welcome to Mythic Mind.
We pursue wisdom in the past between primary

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and secondary world. I'm your host, Danger Snyder, and I am always

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grateful for your company. All right, So we are finally returning to our

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series on Tolkien's Tales from the Perilous
Realm, as I discussed Roverandum with my

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first returning guest, Thomas Selernow.
But before we get to that, I

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have some exciting updates for you.
Starting the late spring or early summer of

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twenty twenty four, I'm going to
be offering a couple of public courses based

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on early interest. One course will
be Life, Death and Meaning with Beowulf

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and Boethius. The other will be
on the fiction and philosophy of C.

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S. Lewis, which will be
followed with a course on Tolkien. The

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Lewis course has, by a significant
margin, received the most support, and

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so I'm giving that one priority right
now. The Life, Death and Meaning

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course is related to a course that
I'm teaching on campus next semester, so

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that will come together naturally enough alongside
my university work, and as it does

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so I'll provide some updates then.
So for now I want to particularly advertise

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the Lewis course. A lot of
grounds going to be covered in this twelve

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week study as we read and discuss
the following. First, the Ransom Trilogy,

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sometimes referred to as the Space Trilogy, which includes Out of the Silent

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Planet Paralandra and That Hideous Strength.
Now Parilandra in That Hideous Strength say much

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about the role of the demonic and
the nature of evil, and so between

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those two will be doing screw Tape
letters. This sub series on the power

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in the mind of evil alone would
be worth the study. And next we're

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going to go to Till We Have
Faces, which is one of my all

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time favorite novels. After that we're
going to do The Great Divorce, and

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then conclude with the entire Narnia series. And here's some rationale for the sequence.

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The Ransom Trilogy is fairly long and
heavy and so provides a strong foundation

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for laying out some of Lewis's most
important philosophical and theological positions. And the

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demonic plays a significant role in Peralandra
in That Hideous Strength, and so placing

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screw tape between them makes for pretty
incredible study on evil. Until we Have

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Faces take certain themes that were more
on the nose in Ransom and presents them

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more symbolically and existentially, resulting in
a deeper understanding. The Great Divorce continues

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this existential theme, examining the eternal
trajectories of our current life orientations. And

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Narnia is certainly the easiest to read, but it is saturated with Lewis's philosophy

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for those who have the eyes to
see it, and after going through the

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heavier stories, Narnia gains more weight. As with Aslan himself, you will

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find that Narnia grows with you.
And so what will the study look like?

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Well, each week I will post
videos exclusively provided for this study that

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are related to the readings. There
will also be scheduled live discussions for anyone

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who's able to attend and is interested
in doing so, and there will be

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an optional discord server so that we
can all chat about the reading together as

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we go. So far, I've
had about fifty people say they would be

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likely to enroll, and so,
if nothing else, this study will provide

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an incredible opportunity to read through these
incredible stories with a vibrant community built around

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it. Also, each week I
will provide some nothing like required assignments,

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but some optional prompts that will lead
you to create maybe a short reflection post,

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maybe a recording. You know,
I'm going to present some options for

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you. That way, you can
choose your own adventure and make it as

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meaningful as you want to and engage
in whatever level you want to anything that

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you pre as long as you give
me consent, I will publish through the

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Mythic Mind outlets, whether it be
through our substack, whether it be through

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our podcast, while of course giving
you full attribution and also sending audience your

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way if you have any personal platforms
for your own and so, this is

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one way that you can kind of
work with the Mythic Mind community in a

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way that may also help your own
platforms. But like I said, I

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won't post anything publicly without your consent
first. Now, if this sounds like

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a worthwhile adventure and you would like
more information, please let me know.

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If you haven't already done so,
you can send me a message on Twitter

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at andrew In Snyder, or you
can email me at mythicmindpodcast at gmail dot

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com. Express interest doesn't mean obligation, and so please let me know if

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you think you would like to participate. Now, before we get into the

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main topic today, I need to
say thank you to all of my patrons

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in the Mythic Mind Fellowship. Your
support helps me to keep doing what I'm

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doing and to branch out into doing
more. And so many thanks to Mark,

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Nick, Paul, Aaron, Aaron, Andrew Brandon, Emmy Harrison,

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Jamie Ian, Jocelyn Joshua, Lauren
Matthew and all my other patrons as well,

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and a special shout out to Paul, my latest patron. Now,

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if you would like to join the
Mythic Mind Fellowship to support my work,

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join our exclusive discord and gain access
to the other perks of this network,

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you can head over to patreon dot
com slash Mythic Mind. Now for the

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main course of today's episode, I'm
glad to welcome back to the show Thomas

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Sellerno, who was previously here for
the episode on Leaf by Nicol. We

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were originally supposed to talk back in
August or something like that, but I

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had to push it off a few
times for various reasons, and so Thomas,

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thanks again for bearing with me.
Now. As a reminder, Thomas

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Sellerno is a children's author. He's
a freelance writer and a podcaster from Long

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Island. His writing has been featured
in two nonfiction anthologies, Tolkien and Faith

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and the Christ Bearer, both published
by Voyage Comics. He's also a host

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on the Secrets of Middle Earth podcast
on the star Quest Network. Thomas has

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a Bachelor of Arts in Anthropology from
Stonybrook University, and you can follow more

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of his work on his substock newsletter
called Page Turning. And he's gonna talk

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a bit more about what he's been
up to during our conversation, and so

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now let's go ahead and get to
it, all right, So like to

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go ahead and welcome back to the
Mythic Mind podcast. My first repeat guest,

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Thomas Lerno. So welcome aboard.
Hey Andrew, it's great to be

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back, so Phyllisen, what have
you been doing since last time, or

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at least, what's a few things
that you've been working on? Oh since

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last time? Oh? Geez,
wow, yeah, a lot. My

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first book is actually currently in the
process of going through revisions. I wrote

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a middle grade nonfiction book. I
can't say much more than that now because

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it hasn't been officially announced, but
I'm expecting to go through probably a third

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and final round of revisions pretty soon, and currently I started a second kid's

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book, and in facts, that's
a lot of what I'm doing now.

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I've found that I really have a
passion of writing for children, which is

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kind of apropos of the book we're
going to be talking about today. But

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I've been doing a lot of that. I've been doing a lot of podcasting

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with the Starquest Network or SQPN.
I'm on their Secrets of Middle Earth,

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which is a monthly show that we
do, and I'm also on the Secrets

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of Movies and TV shows. I'm
a regular host there and I've just started

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being on the Secrets of Star Wars. I was on for a lot of

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the Ahsoka episodes that we reviewed.
But yes, I'm podcasting. I'm still

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writing, you know, freelance articles, but now I'm diving into my new

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found passion for writing for kids,
which it It's so cool because it's something

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I avoided and people told me i'd
be good at but I'm like, no,

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no, I really wouldn't be any
good at that. And then once

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I got fed up of hearing people
tell me to do it, and I

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just started doing it, and I'm
like, this is great. I don't

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want to stop. So, yeah, I think a lot of times vocation

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is discovered through compulsion. Yeah,
yes, exactly. Yeah, and I

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do feel it's a vocation in the
sense that I'm I feel like I'm being

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called to do this because now I
have more ideas for kids books than I

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know what to do with. Actually, the other day I just typed up

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my master list of ideas, so
I could potentially be at this for a

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while. So which is I understand
that I have an ever growing list of

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books I want to write, but
who knows if I ever will Yeah,

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yeah, I understand entirely. But
yeah, so speaking of kids books,

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you know, we're here to talk
about Reverendum, which you know I was

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just discussing with you is very different
than even the other stories in the Perils

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Realm collection, you know, when
you're looking at you know, leaf by

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Niggle, which is really about as
close to autobiography as we get from Tolkien,

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right, And so there's a lot
to mind there for theology and philosophy

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in his own life. And you
know, even I think Farmer Giles and

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until he'd drawn a blink here,
oh Smith of wuten Major. Yeah,

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yeah, that's where I was going
I feel like there's a there's a lot

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to really mind there. But now, Reverendom, I think it's Quintessentially,

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it's a children's story, right,
right, And in fact, I love

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the kind of fatherly anecdote we get
here when we talk about how it came

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about to begin with, right,
Not unlike a lot of his other stories,

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it began as simply a father telling
a story to his child, because

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you know, Michael Tolkien had he
had lost his toy dog, and so

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he was distraught, and so then
told gives him the story about how his

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toy dog was really a real dog
who you know, became a toy and

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eventually became real again, and that's
kind of how I found its freedom.

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And so he was really just spinning
the story out to provide solace and enchantment

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for his kid's loss. And I
love that because as when I was a

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kid, I also went through the
trauma of losing a beloved toy, so

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I totally understand, you know,
and my parents, like my parents actually

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went through an odyssey essentially to find
me a replacement because it was a toy

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that wasn't even in production anymore.
And this was the days before eBay,

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when you couldn't just go online and
look up whatever vintage toy you wanted,

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you know, so they had to
get they had to we live in New

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York, they had to drive to
Connecticut to the factory to get like one

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of the last like coming off the
assembly lines. I understand that, you

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know, parents, you know,
they really want to console their kid when

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they lose a beloved toy. And
and that's just what I I. I

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love that that Tolkien was such a
great dad. I I recently with with

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Christmas coming up in a few months, I finally bought myself a copy of

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The Father Christmas Letters. I've read
them before, but and I I the

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copy I used to have I gifted
to my little cousins, but now I

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have my own copy again. And
it's just He's man. Tolkien was just

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such a great dad, And I
love that about him. I love that

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he went through the trouble to write
this whole adventure for you know, for

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his son's toy dog like that.
That's just wonderful. And it's it's funny,

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like did I think we were We've
been planning this episode for a while,

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and we were planning it even before
I finally got it into my veins

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to write kid stories. So I
see kind of providence working here. And

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as I've been thinking about this story, because we were talking before we started

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recording, like where are we gonna
go with this? I mean, and

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it is called Rover Random. A
lot of random things happen in it,

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but I think there's almost kind of
a theme. I don't know if this

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is a stretch, but maybe a
theme of providence in the story, because

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yeah, like seemingly random things happened
to Rover, but it all kind of

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works out in the end. And
I feel like that's a good metaphor for

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life. A lot of things that
happened to us seem to be awfully random,

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but in the end, they just
kind of work out most of the

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time in God's providence, whether in
this world or the next. And so

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that's just such an inspiring thought.
I don't know if Tolkien had that in

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mind when he was writing the story, but that's what I've gotten out of

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it, just true thinking on it. Yeah, I mean I think that

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we asked what is it that Tolkien
intended? I mean, whether talking about

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Rover Random or Lord of the Rings. I mean, first and foremost,

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he's obviously intending on telling a good
story, right right. However, what

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it means for something be a good
story is it has some kind of semblance

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to reality. And so obviously we
see his mind playing out in these stories.

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And so I don't think it's at
all a stretch to say that there

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is a theme of providence here simply
because there's a theme of providence working in

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Tolkien's head, right yeah. And
Lord of the Rings, you know,

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like and and throughout his whole legendarium, there's that theme, so you yeah,

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you can see it even in his
other works, right, I mean,

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you know the iconic you know scene
or Danoff is explaining how the Ring

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came to Frodo through you know,
they're seemingly disconnected, seemingly random events,

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and really, you know, there
was a deeper power at work, or

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like, you know, even what's
that famous line from Gandalf Race is a

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chance meeting such as we say in
Middle Earth? You know, like in

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Middle Earth we say it's a chance
meeting. But from the perspective of Eru

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Louvitar, nothing is left to chance. Right in right now, I'm teaching

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a medieval philosophy course on campus and
we're reading Boethi is the Constellation of Philosophy

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right now, which it's one of
my favorite texts. I mean, I've

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read it probably once a year for
the last five years or so. And

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you know, Boothys makes the point
that what we call fortune, or what

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we call luck or even fate really
is more of an admission of our ignorance

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about the chain of events behind the
scene than it does anything else. Right,

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there's no such thing as luck.
We call something luck or fortune simply

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because we don't understand the chain of
events that let it to take place,

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right, Yeah, exactly, as
Obi Wan Kenobi would say, in my

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experience, there's no such thing as
luck exactly. Okay, So Rover random,

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So it starts off where okay,
Rover the dog he's playing with this

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ball gets away from him, and
then the wizard is this one art Exerk

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sees thee Yeah, as like a
history follows, Like wait, is that

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like a Persian emperor or something?
Right, which I haven't quite been I'll

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figure out the connection there if you
have any insight. I don't know.

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Oh yeah, okay, it almost
seemed very like that seemed less that name

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choice seemed less Tolkien and Mora Lewis, if that makes sense, right,

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You know, we're just seemingly like
some historical reference that doesn't quite seem to

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fit, right, So fair enough, okay, So art Exerk sees the

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Wizard, he picks up the ball, and it's since that initially the Wizard

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was actually gonna potentially do something nice
for Rover. Maybe he turned into some

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kind of treat or something. But
Rover instantly asserts himself and basically starts growling

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to get his ball back, which
we're told that that's kind of how things

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start to go south, that it's
because he didn't say pleased to the Wizard,

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that this curse is going to befall
him, and he ruins the Wizard's

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trousers, which is like a recurring
thing that they always come back to.

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He's very bent out of shape about
that, right, And so the Wizard,

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I mean, understandably a little bit
irritated, curses Rover and turns him

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into a toy dog, I like
a Rover's first thought is like, how

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am I gonna deal with the cat
now that I'm a toy? Right?

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Fair enough that the power structure has
been altered, Yeah, and so I

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didn't think it's kind of interesting that
there is this emphasis on the fact that

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it's because he instantly tried to assert
himself through his growls, through biting the

219
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wizard's trousers, that he specifically didn't
say please to the wizard, that he

220
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turned into a toy. And so
we kind of get this idea in this

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childish form that we see even in
Lord of the Rings, that the more

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that you assert yourself in the world, the more you kind of fall into

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the shadow, right, you kind
of become less real. He loses his

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agency after asserting his agency, he
becomes a toy, can't move, like

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he complains later when he's at the
Little Boy's house that he has to struggle

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just to move like a fraction of
an inch. So it's that it's it's

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that interesting idea that the more we
self assert the actually more restrictions that are

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almost kind of put on us,
right that, you know, the more

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that you kind of grasp at power, the more that power grasp at you,

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and the less agency that you actually
have, which very much ties into

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some of the Boethius conversations I'm having, but I won't go too far off

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track with that. You can't go
wrong with Boetheus. Though, no,

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you cannot go wrong with Boetheus.
But I mean, all right, so

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I guess I'll go there. In
class, we just finished going over book

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four where Boetheus is talking to Lady
Philosophy and his imprisonment, and he brings

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up the problem that's addressed in scripture
and really throughout Christian experience, why is

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it that the wicked seem to prosper
well the righteous seem to suffer? And

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Lady Philosophy's response to that is basically
that the wicked actually are never prospers because

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even if they seem to have finite
goods in their hands, they are living

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shatter realities. They're not fulfilling the
form of what it fundamentally means to be

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human. And so in that case, their apparent fortune could actually be a

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curse and kind of advancing their movement
away from being and so yes, leading

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them away from what they really need. Yeah, yeah, I remember listening

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to a homily once where a bishop
had put it in very similar terms,

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where like, when you see the
wicked appearing to prosper and with all these

246
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material goods, you know, have
you ever stopped to think that God is

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not blessing them, he may be
punishing them by giving them all of this

248
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you know, worldly wealth, because
they're it's actually leading them further away from

249
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him. So in a sense,
they're being punished by all their goods.

250
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Right. And so that's the conclusion
that both Yas gets here through his contemplation,

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is that the wicked, regardless of
what fortune befalls their way, whether

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they win the lottery or go bankrupt, your fortune is working against them.

253
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But then the same thing, there
is no bad fortune for the good because

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you know, if you are based
in goodness, if you are ultimately reflecting

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the image of God and looking toward
the beatific vision, then you are fulfilling

256
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your form. And so finite goods, if you have them, you'll steward

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them, use them well. And
if you don't have them, well,

258
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maybe you'll become even more rooted in
goodness. Yeah, And that's interesting because

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Rover's whole experience here is kind of
his journey toward becoming a good dog.

260
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Correct. You know, he starts
out as a naughty dog, as a

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bad dog, you know, and
he becomes even less of a dog when

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he's transformed into a toy, you
know, his and it's his whole journey

263
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towards back, not only to becoming
a real dog, but a real dog

264
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who is a good dog. And
he kind of has to learn to be

265
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a good dog while he's still a
toy, which is is interesting. Yeah,

266
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it's his whole journey towards reality and
goodness. Yeah, I mean,

267
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along similar lines. I've also been
going through revisiting Narnia recently, which I

268
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hadn't done for decades. Probably I
have to, I have to reread those

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I was going through. Uh.
I just finished up Voyage of the Dawn

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Tredder, where Eustace this useless kid. One of the best lines from Lewis

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comes from right the opening of Dawn
Tretder, where it says, you know,

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there once was a boy named Eustace
Scrub and he almost deserved it.

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Quintessential Lewis. This is terrible,
miserable, no good kid gets turned into

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a dragon, and that's actually what
causes him to become a real boy,

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essentially right to recognize that the dragon
skin is kind of who he's been all

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along, and it causes him to
then you're for something better, which Asla

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unfortunately provides for him. But it's
sometimes the work of Fairyland is to help

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you to see you yourself for what
you are, with the hope that you

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can then move in a better direction. Right. I mean, that's you

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know Tolkien's difference between magic and enchantment, right that. You know, magic

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itself is kind of artificial enterprise,
whereas real enchantment brings out the good qualities,

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the kind of what something was all
always meant to be. Right,

283
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Yeah, it's it's making something more
real and not artificial. Right. And

284
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so he and of course Roper becomes
artificial, He becomes a toalk, correct

285
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and he kind of realizes that he
was always artificial, at least in the

286
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way that he was living. One
thing I also noticed in you as I'm

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going through Narnia and now looking at
this, you know, in when Tolkien's

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character is going to enter into the
realm of fairy, the perilous realm,

289
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right when they start to enter into
this broader reality and they're faced with the

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discovery of who they are and who
they're called to be. In Narnia and

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Lewis's writing, there's always some kind
of portal, whether it be a wardrobe

292
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or you know, the painting or
whatever else. There's some kind of portal

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that brings them into faery, whereas
in Tolkien stories they just kind of walk

294
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into fairyland. It's sort of part
of the reality. It's more seamless,

295
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which you know, again, this
is probably quintessential in Smith and Wooton Major

296
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right, where he literally walks into
the fairy land. Right, there's no

297
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real portal or entry point. It's
not really clear how he gets there.

298
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And that's why I like to look
at Tolkien as something of an existentialist,

299
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right in that the perilous realm,
you know, it's where we, as

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he says in non fairy stories,
it's kind of where we find the pathway

301
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between heaven and hell and set our
course. And so I think that's sort

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of a fundamental reality of living as
a human, where you know, we

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enter into those points where suddenly we're
part of a bigger story. Maybe it's

304
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because of whatever our support structure is
has sort of fallen apart, and then

305
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we're left to kind of look out
at the abyss and figure out who it

306
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is that we are. I don't
know, I kind of like Tolkien's model

307
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of fairy landed. The perilous realm
is something that you just kind of walk

308
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into rather than necessarily being a firm
transition portal way, right, yeah,

309
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less of a stark contrast. I
think they both have their strengths in terms

310
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of being like a storytelling device,
but Tolkien is definitely I think, tapping

311
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into the idea of more that even
the seemingly mundane things and events in our

312
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lives can have that aspect of fairy
right. That's why I think on on

313
00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:03.359
fairy stories. You know, he
talks about how you know all things,

314
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and you know, ultimately even man
can enter into fairyland, you know,

315
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when they are properly enchanted. Right. Yeah, I'm losing the beauty of

316
00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:15.440
the quote, but I think you
know where I'm going with that. No,

317
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:21.160
Yeah, And another one of my
favorite authors really brings this out.

318
00:24:21.240 --> 00:24:26.920
Although largely an author of science fiction, Ray Bradbury, really had a talent

319
00:24:27.880 --> 00:24:37.440
for bringing out the kind of enchantment
in mundane experiences and mundane objects in his

320
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stories. I mean, he like, if you've ever read the story that

321
00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:48.119
the Sound of Summer Running, which
is this beautiful peon to tennis shoes like

322
00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:52.880
a kid with a new pair of
tennis shoes, which to him is just

323
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the greatest thing in the world and
he sees like the wonder and a fresh

324
00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:03.000
new pair of shoes. He thinks
he can do anything once he has these

325
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shoes, and the guy who who
runs the local shoe store is just like,

326
00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:14.039
what are you talking about? And
like and the kid kind of re

327
00:25:14.359 --> 00:25:18.920
enchants him because he's been sort of
since he works with shoes all the time,

328
00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:23.759
he's become sort of blinded to the
magic of getting a new pair of

329
00:25:23.799 --> 00:25:30.960
shoes, and seeing the reaction of
this kid reawakens that enchantment in the older

330
00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:36.160
man. And it's just one of
my favorite short stories ever. And I

331
00:25:36.200 --> 00:25:40.000
feel like that's that's kind of Tolkien
does a similar thing, which in terms

332
00:25:40.039 --> 00:25:44.480
of like seeing the world through this
lens of enchantment, you'll never look at

333
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:48.359
the world the same way again.
Yeah, and I know that I wish

334
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:52.039
I could rear the exact quote,
but Chesterton says something very similar where he

335
00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:56.960
says that, you know, the
the kid who enters into the enchanted forest

336
00:25:56.119 --> 00:26:00.160
doesn't lose the mundane forest. The
mundane for is, just gains its sense

337
00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:07.480
of enchantment, right yeah, almost
becomes its true self as a forest right

338
00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:11.480
right now. Really along the same
lines we've been talking about here Rover,

339
00:26:11.799 --> 00:26:17.079
he's turned into a toy and finds
himself in a toy store right among other

340
00:26:17.599 --> 00:26:22.000
natural toys, and you know,
he's concerned about the fact that he can't

341
00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:27.160
really move like he wants to,
and the toys respond by saying, what

342
00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:33.480
do you want to move for?
They say, we don't. It's more

343
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comfortable standing still and thinking of nothing. I love that the perspective of because

344
00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:41.880
to a toy, that's perfectly natural, right, why would you want to

345
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move? Even like, oh,
where is that thing? Later where he's

346
00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:52.440
he's he's talking to the shrimp in
the bag h And it's so depressing.

347
00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:59.640
It ends on kind of a sour
node. I don't have the actual like

348
00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:03.160
bit in front of me, but
like, yeah, he just has these

349
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:10.359
encounters with all these different beings.
I guess, just like you know,

350
00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:17.839
he starts to see how what kind
of a jerk he is actually right through

351
00:27:17.960 --> 00:27:26.240
like the interaction with these other creatures
and speaking of like of seemingly mundane objects

352
00:27:26.279 --> 00:27:30.559
that we see all the time that
Tolkien kind of re enchants is the moon

353
00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:34.519
because I don't know if that's jumping
a bit too far ahead, Yeah it

354
00:27:34.599 --> 00:27:37.559
is. We've skipped over the sand
Wizard, So I guess, right,

355
00:27:38.759 --> 00:27:41.160
I mean, I don't know how
much there is to say there, but

356
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:47.599
yeah, so he encounters this sand
Wizard, who at least has it within

357
00:27:47.640 --> 00:27:52.759
his power to turn Rover into a
real dog but still toy size. Right,

358
00:27:52.839 --> 00:27:56.160
Yeah, he kind of does it
halfway. He's sort of a real

359
00:27:56.200 --> 00:28:00.279
dog again, but he's you know, he's tiny, right, and so

360
00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:06.200
I guess that's one step closer to
becoming who he is. And so he

361
00:28:06.279 --> 00:28:11.240
becomes tiny. And then the Wizard
basically after some dialogue and some exchange of

362
00:28:11.319 --> 00:28:15.319
various words, he sends him off
to the moon. And so this bird

363
00:28:15.559 --> 00:28:19.960
carries him across the pathway that the
you know, moon is reflecting on the

364
00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:25.480
water, which I think is just
kind of a neat device. Yeah,

365
00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:27.599
that the moonbeams coming across the water, and that itself is the pathway that

366
00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:30.759
leads to the moon, you know, over the horizon, right, and

367
00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:37.240
he kind of doesn't he kind of
make an oblique reference to vaalenor yeah.

368
00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:41.359
Oh, and I'm like, you've
gotta be kidding me. Talk Yeah,

369
00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:42.720
yeah, that that comes a little
bit later, but yeah, ok,

370
00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:47.920
yeah, oh right, when when
he's with the whale. That's when,

371
00:28:48.039 --> 00:28:52.480
right who by the way, since
I mean jumping her head a little bit,

372
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:56.799
Yeah, he's with the whale.
I think Owen I may think mispronouncing

373
00:28:56.839 --> 00:29:00.400
it. But one thing that's kind
of interesting is Ewin. In the early

374
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:08.920
drafts of the Cimmarillian, Owen was
actually a vassal of Olmo. Oh okay,

375
00:29:10.119 --> 00:29:15.440
so there is a direct connection here. And so you know, as

376
00:29:15.480 --> 00:29:18.920
a vassal of Olmo, he brings
Rover, you know, right to the

377
00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:22.319
borders of Vallenor and then makes the
point, you know, if I don't

378
00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:25.079
turn around now, I'm really going
to catch it, right, Yeah,

379
00:29:25.240 --> 00:29:29.680
yeah, I'm not supposed to be
here, right. I love those little

380
00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:34.200
connections we get occasionally in his non
legendarium stories to the Legendarium. To me,

381
00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:37.640
that's the ultimate crossover. I mean, you know, say what you

382
00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:41.599
will about Marvel, but for me, the Tolkien crossovers are more exciting.

383
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:47.880
I remember reading a quote from Tolkien
where he says something to the effect of

384
00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:53.400
I kept farmer Giles out of the
Legendarium, only with difficulty, right,

385
00:29:56.319 --> 00:30:00.759
I mean the problem is that Tolkien
he lived in Middle Earth, right,

386
00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:04.680
So how do you set yourself out
of it, and so even in Rover

387
00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:11.640
Random we get these connections, these
direct references now to Lessendarium. And of

388
00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:15.440
course that the Man in the Moon, you know, it kind of reminds

389
00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:21.119
me of the of the proto song
that the Man in the Moon. What

390
00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:23.559
is it the Man in the Moon
slept in too late or something is the

391
00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:26.680
name of the song, I think, right, And so it's connected a

392
00:30:26.680 --> 00:30:33.839
proto song, and it's also connected
to a fuller song in the Adventures of

393
00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:40.240
Tom Bombadil, right, yeah,
and so they are all of these connections

394
00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:45.079
kind of woven throughout his writings.
So yeah, So he goes to the

395
00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:51.400
moon where he encounters the Man in
the Moon and Rover r another dog named

396
00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:56.519
Rover who claims to be the first
dog ever named Rover, but he may

397
00:30:56.559 --> 00:31:02.519
be exaggerating, correct, as will
the next Rover, right yeah, Okay,

398
00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:07.279
So he encounters this moondog who's able
to fly around, and short bit

399
00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:10.960
later, our Rover is able to
fly around like the moondog. He gets

400
00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:15.440
this enchantment put on him, and
so they fly around going on little dog

401
00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:21.519
adventures, terrorizing little creatures and doing
what dogs do. They get in trouble

402
00:31:21.519 --> 00:31:25.400
with the dragon, they get in
trouble with the dragon. In fact,

403
00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:30.119
pretty significant dragon. Right, this
is the white Dragon of England. Oh

404
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:36.319
you know what, I never even
made that connection. Yeah, yeahs describes

405
00:31:36.319 --> 00:31:41.039
as a white dragon. Yeah right, And there's one brief passing reference regarding

406
00:31:41.079 --> 00:31:47.640
the dragon to some connection to Merlin. Oh they make a passing, right

407
00:31:47.720 --> 00:31:53.720
because And it's funny because I'm just
starting to discover the Arthur mythos. I

408
00:31:53.720 --> 00:31:57.400
mean it through osmosis, you know, and seeing the sword and the Stone

409
00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:01.359
as a kid. I've got the
base down, but I'm just starting to

410
00:32:01.480 --> 00:32:06.880
dig into like the deep parts of
the archemist says, and yeah, like

411
00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:13.519
the found One of the foundational Merlin
stories is is the Tower of Vortigern where

412
00:32:13.519 --> 00:32:16.640
you have the red dragon and the
white that he prophesies that if you look

413
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:22.240
underneath this tower you will find a
red dragon and a white dragon you're fighting,

414
00:32:22.359 --> 00:32:28.519
right yeah. And the red dragon
is pre Anglo Saxon Britain, right,

415
00:32:28.599 --> 00:32:32.000
that's what it correct, And the
white is the Anglo Saxons, right,

416
00:32:32.200 --> 00:32:36.839
correct. And so I mean naturally
Talkiing's going to attach himself to the

417
00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:43.119
white dragon, right uh. And
so we're told that this is that dragon

418
00:32:43.160 --> 00:32:45.480
and In fact, we're also told
that all white dragons come from the moon.

419
00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:51.240
And it's kind of this phrasing like
as everybody knows, as everybody knows,

420
00:32:51.359 --> 00:32:55.039
Yeah, that he's very much in
his like his narrator in roverandom is

421
00:32:55.039 --> 00:33:01.640
is more like his narrator in the
Hobbit and else makes these self referential things

422
00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:07.559
or you know, like these sort
of yeah, humorous remarks, right,

423
00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:09.759
which I mean, of course,
hobit was also a story that he told

424
00:33:09.759 --> 00:33:15.160
his kids, right exactly. Yeah, I don't think it's interesting that on

425
00:33:15.240 --> 00:33:22.119
the moon we're told that the plants
emit a song that basically the plants themselves

426
00:33:22.119 --> 00:33:25.920
are singing, which I mean,
naturally to me ties into Tolkien Smith.

427
00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:31.319
It's the idea that there is a
music kind of at the heart of being

428
00:33:31.400 --> 00:33:36.720
right, right, yeah, I
mean, getting back the Adventures of Tom

429
00:33:36.759 --> 00:33:39.359
Bombadil that, like, you know, that's one of you know, and

430
00:33:39.400 --> 00:33:44.279
I'm sure I'm not the first to
think of this. That he he everywhere

431
00:33:44.279 --> 00:33:50.319
he goes, he's singing, and
even when he's not singing, he seems

432
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:53.000
to talk. I'm no poet or
anything, but he seems to talk in

433
00:33:53.039 --> 00:34:00.799
a meter even when he's not technically
singing, and I feel like kind of

434
00:34:00.839 --> 00:34:06.160
represents in some sort of way just
being like, right, he's not God

435
00:34:06.279 --> 00:34:09.239
or ever Erruluvatar or anything like that, I don't think, but he he

436
00:34:09.639 --> 00:34:15.400
just seems to represent, like,
you know, Arta as being you know,

437
00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:20.920
and and he he makes it very
plain to the Hobbits that him running

438
00:34:20.920 --> 00:34:25.440
around and singing all the time is
very important. Right. He's like,

439
00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:30.000
I've got things to do, my
making and my singing, my talking and

440
00:34:30.119 --> 00:34:35.639
my walking, and that's that is
super important, more important than anything they'll

441
00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:42.679
be doing. Right. It's like, just through his vocalizations, he's bringing

442
00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:46.159
things into order how they should be. That's how he stops old man Willow.

443
00:34:46.280 --> 00:34:50.639
He basically turns him back into a
tree, and trees don't eat hobbits,

444
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:54.679
right, Yeah, And in that
way, he's he's like a a

445
00:34:55.559 --> 00:35:01.840
prelapsarian figure because, like Adam for
the Fall, he brings things into order,

446
00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:07.400
right, ordering the world. He
gives things names, you know,

447
00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:12.519
speech is a very important part of
what he's doing. Whatever he says seems

448
00:35:12.559 --> 00:35:15.239
to come into being right. And
that's one theory I've heard about Bombadil,

449
00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:20.599
that he's basically unfallen man, in
which I mean, I don't think there's

450
00:35:20.599 --> 00:35:23.400
any one thing that Tom Bombadel is, but I think that's definitely one aspect,

451
00:35:23.559 --> 00:35:28.639
one way of understanding him. And
so the idea of the song is

452
00:35:28.679 --> 00:35:35.400
important, and that of course ties
into medieval and classical cosmology, the idea

453
00:35:35.480 --> 00:35:38.719
that there is a harmony to the
cosmos to the point where you know,

454
00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:47.599
it even maps out mathematically to song
exactly. And so this idea that there

455
00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:52.920
is a basic harmony, not even
just in a metaphorical sense, but there's

456
00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:59.239
a kind of literal harmonization points to
I think the essential goodness of being,

457
00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:04.960
and that the harm and the the
the log gossip creation. Yeah, I

458
00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:08.920
remember reading I wish I remember the
name of this book, but I read

459
00:36:08.920 --> 00:36:15.000
a portal fantasy once where and it
was written for like middle grade or teen

460
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:22.519
readers. That when the when the
main character can sort of go between worlds,

461
00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:27.039
the space between the worlds as he's
going through there, the kind of

462
00:36:27.079 --> 00:36:34.960
space between spaces, it's seemingly like
music, like that's it. It's it

463
00:36:35.239 --> 00:36:38.639
like he sees things, but the
what what what he's what? The visualization

464
00:36:38.719 --> 00:36:43.920
of it is less important than what
he hears. That like the the whole

465
00:36:43.960 --> 00:36:50.760
fabric of reality is music mysteriously and
that's never explained, but I always thought

466
00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:52.119
it was beautiful, and gosh,
I wish I remember the name of that

467
00:36:52.159 --> 00:36:55.960
book now, but but I always
thought that that was a beautiful way of

468
00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:00.920
you know, think the And it
was very told key that there's kind of

469
00:37:00.039 --> 00:37:05.239
music at the heart of reality.
Right. It's the idea that beauty and

470
00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:08.239
being go hand in hand, that
the true, the good, and beautiful

471
00:37:08.840 --> 00:37:15.000
find their unity in one and that
that then is extends throughout the very fibers

472
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:19.880
of the cosmos. And it was
maybe when you go into the heavens,

473
00:37:19.880 --> 00:37:23.000
like into the moon, that becomes
more clear, right, Yeah, And

474
00:37:23.960 --> 00:37:30.719
what is the moon was always seen
as kind of a transitional state in medieval

475
00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:34.280
cosmology, right, because, like, you know, it was believed that

476
00:37:34.360 --> 00:37:39.119
you know, sub lunar everything changes, you know, and that the sort

477
00:37:39.159 --> 00:37:45.719
of spheres that were over and above
the moon were you know, that made

478
00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:49.760
of quintessence. They never changed,
you know. But the moon was sort

479
00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:54.079
of a transitional state because people had
always been able to see the craters and

480
00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:59.440
imperfections on the surface of the moon, so they're like, oh, so

481
00:37:59.559 --> 00:38:04.639
things have here to change and run
down there, but it also emits this

482
00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:08.639
radiance, so it's kind of like
this halfway point and the moon sort of

483
00:38:08.679 --> 00:38:14.760
forms. It just occurred to me
almost the halfway point of Roverandom's story.

484
00:38:15.480 --> 00:38:20.119
I mean, even long lines you
were just describing about the transitional point of

485
00:38:20.119 --> 00:38:22.159
the Moon. I mean there's a
light side on the dark side, and

486
00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:29.239
the moon itself changes, it goes
through phases. Oh. In even connected

487
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:31.119
this even more. I mean it's
the dragon that we were talking about,

488
00:38:31.159 --> 00:38:37.199
which, of course dragons typically symbolize
the chaotic, and the dragon lived right

489
00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:44.519
on the border point between the light
and the dark. That is interesting.

490
00:38:44.599 --> 00:38:49.360
Yeah. In fact, we're told
that he was in that part of the

491
00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:54.599
moon where things tend to be forgotten, right yeah. Yeah, And oh

492
00:38:54.800 --> 00:39:00.360
like Lewis was very interested in this
too, because I will never forgive him

493
00:39:00.360 --> 00:39:05.519
for this. In the Third Space
Trilogy book, he mentions all this cool

494
00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:07.800
stuff that is going on on the
Moon, but we never get to see

495
00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:12.079
it, and I'm like, come
on, man, he talks about this

496
00:39:12.199 --> 00:39:15.199
huge battle going on on the Moon. I'm like, why didn't you set

497
00:39:15.239 --> 00:39:21.800
the book there right right right?
I remember even in no it was in

498
00:39:22.519 --> 00:39:24.000
out of the side of the planet. On the way back, they talk

499
00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:29.639
about the moon being some kind of
denizen of the enemy, nothing mentioned about

500
00:39:29.679 --> 00:39:31.119
in Perilandra. But then in that
hitty Strength, Yeah, there is this

501
00:39:31.159 --> 00:39:36.440
discussion of this battle and yeah,
it's all kind of nebulous and I don't

502
00:39:36.440 --> 00:39:38.840
know, right, and I think
the battle was going on in the same

503
00:39:38.920 --> 00:39:43.079
place, that sort of borderland between
the light and the dark side of the

504
00:39:43.079 --> 00:39:45.960
moon, and I'm like, wait, like Lewis, you could have done

505
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:52.039
a whole book of that, right, And of course things get more interesting

506
00:39:52.159 --> 00:39:55.920
because they they end up a really
effective scene where the man in the moon

507
00:39:55.960 --> 00:40:01.840
takes him down that sort of endless
stare way tunnel through the moon to like

508
00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:09.639
to the this the moon is revealed
as a place where children's dreams are kind

509
00:40:09.679 --> 00:40:15.920
of made reality, where children go
when they sleep, right, which kind

510
00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:17.639
of interesting. I don't know what
to make of that. Per se.

511
00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:23.119
Yeah, it's almost like a neverland
kind of place, almost, right,

512
00:40:23.239 --> 00:40:27.519
except they don't stay, you know, they don't become lost boys. They

513
00:40:27.519 --> 00:40:30.519
go back when they wake up,
right, And so I mean, I

514
00:40:30.519 --> 00:40:35.239
don't know if that kind of connects
to what we're talking about about the moon

515
00:40:35.320 --> 00:40:45.360
being some kind of vague transitory halfway
place right where land right, And it's

516
00:40:45.400 --> 00:40:49.000
not it's not heaven where you go
where you die, but it's a place

517
00:40:49.079 --> 00:40:52.360
you go when you sleep, which
is you know, people have traditionally thought

518
00:40:52.360 --> 00:40:57.760
of it as like a kind of
the little death, you know, right,

519
00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:01.079
And I did love the quote,
and I'll struck where it is.

520
00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:07.000
But Robert asked the old the uh
Man of the Moon. Do dreams come

521
00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:14.320
true? And he responds by saying, not all, but some do,

522
00:41:15.159 --> 00:41:19.480
but never in the way that you
think that they will, right, Yeah,

523
00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:22.559
And that that goes back to what
I was kind of saying at the

524
00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:27.880
beginning about like providence, because that's
something I've seen in my own life where

525
00:41:28.159 --> 00:41:30.960
you know, dreams and aspirations that
I've had since I was a kid,

526
00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:37.880
they come true, but never in
the way that I envisioned them as a

527
00:41:37.960 --> 00:41:40.760
kid. And it's and then and
it's all the way that they happen is

528
00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:45.760
often for the better than what I
imagined as a kid, even though sometimes

529
00:41:45.800 --> 00:41:52.800
like it's less grand than what I
imagine, but it's actually better, you

530
00:41:52.840 --> 00:41:57.000
know, And even if it's not
permanent, if it's just you know,

531
00:41:57.039 --> 00:42:00.079
because like every kid has that dream
where it's like they want to be x,

532
00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:05.199
you know, whether it's a baseball
player or an astronaut or whatever it

533
00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:08.559
is. You know, and you
have that dream, and I've seen,

534
00:42:08.679 --> 00:42:14.559
you know, childhood dreams at least
partially fulfilled in my life, but definitely

535
00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:17.000
not the way I imagine them as
a little boy, but I own.

536
00:42:17.039 --> 00:42:21.000
But as a mature adult, you
see, Oh, it was better that

537
00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:25.079
way. And God still had in
mind fulfilling those dreams, but in a

538
00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:30.199
better way than you imagined it,
in a way that helps you towards maturity.

539
00:42:31.199 --> 00:42:37.400
Right. I think that we all
have various longings and desires that put

540
00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:40.320
into the right shape, can lead
us in the general direction that we're meant

541
00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:45.679
to go. But why should we
at all expect that our finite little minds

542
00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:50.280
can actually understand what is good for
us and what we should be doing.

543
00:42:50.960 --> 00:42:55.800
Right? Yeah, yeah, And
I've noticed that in my prayer life.

544
00:42:57.159 --> 00:43:00.719
One of the things you learn as
you you know, develop a consistent prayer

545
00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:07.199
life is that eventually you will stop
telling God what's best for him to do,

546
00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:12.719
and you start your will starts to
become more conformed to Okay, I

547
00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:17.360
want you to actualize in my life
what's best for me right, you start

548
00:43:17.400 --> 00:43:22.360
giving more and more control over to
him, and you stop saying, now,

549
00:43:22.360 --> 00:43:27.559
look God, here are my plans. Okay, I've got this all

550
00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:30.360
figured out. You know. It's
it's very you know, it's very simple.

551
00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:34.039
You just have to make sure this, this, and this happens,

552
00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:37.000
you know. And there's the old
saw that you know, if you want

553
00:43:37.039 --> 00:43:39.079
to make God laugh, just tell
them what your plans are. You know.

554
00:43:39.239 --> 00:43:43.719
But a lot of our you know, prayers are please do this for

555
00:43:43.800 --> 00:43:47.599
me, please make this happen.
I've just found that the more I pray

556
00:43:47.679 --> 00:43:53.280
consistently, the more those prayers become
no, you know, make what's best

557
00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:59.719
happen, not necessarily what I want, but just what's best. Right.

558
00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:05.000
Ultimately, an image doesn't have agency
over that which it images, right,

559
00:44:05.119 --> 00:44:10.800
Yeah, So, I mean going
back to boetheis his one of his ongoing

560
00:44:10.800 --> 00:44:15.519
points is that, you know,
we are to hold our fortune in an

561
00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:21.039
open hand and simply embrace providence.
And sometimes things will come into our hands

562
00:44:21.119 --> 00:44:25.480
that provide what we are inclined to
call happiness. Sometimes it won't, but

563
00:44:25.519 --> 00:44:30.960
nonetheless we hold fortune in an open
hand, and that hand itself has firmly

564
00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:36.719
rested on top of providence. All
right. So Rover he gets off the

565
00:44:36.760 --> 00:44:44.119
moon, he encounters the sand Wizard
again, who basically reaffirms he can't overturn

566
00:44:44.440 --> 00:44:50.400
art Exerxy's curse altogether. And so
now art Exerxis has taken up residence in

567
00:44:50.440 --> 00:45:00.039
the ocean, right, he's he's
given an acronym the PAM right take Atlantic

568
00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:06.039
Magician. And so this is when
I think, this is when he hops

569
00:45:06.039 --> 00:45:09.559
aboard the whale initially who comes to
to bring him to art exert seas.

570
00:45:09.960 --> 00:45:14.679
Uh, he was taking up residents
amongst the mur people. In fact,

571
00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:17.119
I even think he took a wife
from the murphy. Yes, yeah,

572
00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:22.840
he's got a mermaid wife now.
Yeah, and you know he sees himself

573
00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:27.039
as you know, far too busy
to deal with little trifles now like Rover,

574
00:45:27.599 --> 00:45:31.119
right, he's far too important.
Yeah, And so Rover starts to

575
00:45:31.119 --> 00:45:36.920
go on these little misadventors with the
Rover of the Sea, this murd dog.

576
00:45:37.159 --> 00:45:42.400
Yeah. There there's always new rovers
that he meets. Yeah. It's

577
00:45:42.519 --> 00:45:46.719
kind of interesting that despite their names, the Rover of the Sea and the

578
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:50.840
Rover of the Moon are both kind
of fixed where they are right there,

579
00:45:52.039 --> 00:45:55.000
yeah, right, they they rove
around as much as they can in their

580
00:45:55.039 --> 00:46:00.559
little in their in their sort of
sphere of influence, like yes, in

581
00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:05.840
the moon or under the sea,
but they can't leave those states because Sea

582
00:46:05.920 --> 00:46:10.639
Rover is a mird dog. He
can't leave and live the life of a

583
00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:17.559
dog on the land. And while
moon Rover was initially he says, a

584
00:46:17.599 --> 00:46:22.320
dog from Earth, he appears just
so tied to the moon now that I

585
00:46:22.360 --> 00:46:30.039
don't think he would even think of
leaving, Whereas Referendum is able to move

586
00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:34.480
in and out of these different realities, perhaps in part because he doesn't belonged

587
00:46:34.480 --> 00:46:38.360
to them, right, Yeah,
it's not his nature to be there,

588
00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:44.239
so he right kind of move in
and out, whereas like the other rovers

589
00:46:44.239 --> 00:46:47.239
have kind of found their place,
you know, and he's still wandering.

590
00:46:47.320 --> 00:46:52.960
He hasn't found that place where he's
most himself. Whereas our Rover he's almost

591
00:46:53.360 --> 00:46:58.079
going through a divine comedy of sorts, right, you know what he kind

592
00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:00.360
of is, yeah, because he's
going all to these different regions. He

593
00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:07.840
usually has a guide, right things, So he's going up to the heavens,

594
00:47:07.880 --> 00:47:10.960
he's going down to the depths.
I'm not trying to draw an exact

595
00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:15.960
parallel, but I think there are
can you imagine. Yeah, there's so

596
00:47:16.039 --> 00:47:20.840
much potential, come on talking,
So okay, So it goes off of

597
00:47:20.840 --> 00:47:23.800
these misadventures. Our e Jerxys is
totally ignoring him. He's far too important

598
00:47:23.880 --> 00:47:30.360
now. And this is when he
does go on a little venture with the

599
00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:36.440
whale to the borders of Elvin Holme, right, which I initially read this

600
00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:38.199
right off of my first read of
the Civil Million, and so that was

601
00:47:38.239 --> 00:47:45.760
really exciting, yea, the very
very cool reference. Yeah. Now eventually

602
00:47:45.800 --> 00:47:50.880
this whirlwind kicks up that ar Jerxy
is to deal with, which we find

603
00:47:50.920 --> 00:47:53.840
out is now a sea serpent,
and so we still have this dragon connection

604
00:47:55.000 --> 00:47:59.639
yep. Ward, And I mean
that's you know, I just finished reading

605
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:05.920
because now now I'm reading kids books
all the time to get inspiration. And

606
00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:12.920
I recently read John Ronald's Dragons,
which is a very lovely picture book biography

607
00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:16.199
of Tolkien and about his love for
dragons and how they kind of inspired a

608
00:48:16.199 --> 00:48:20.559
lot of his stories in his imagination. So it's like, yeah, he

609
00:48:20.599 --> 00:48:23.320
always says dragons on the mind.
I know. In the introduction here,

610
00:48:23.800 --> 00:48:30.480
Tom Shippy says that there's some connection
here between the Sea Serpent and the Midguard

611
00:48:30.599 --> 00:48:35.039
Serpent that ultimately is going to consume
Thor in the end, right, Yeah,

612
00:48:35.079 --> 00:48:39.480
and so I was thinking maybe of
like Leviathan, yes, like the

613
00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:45.119
biblical yes, right, and that's
naturally where my mind probably go as well.

614
00:48:45.079 --> 00:48:50.719
But we get these hints that even
though we're looking at this little children

615
00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:55.480
story, you know, they're these
shadows of these historical and mythical realities that

616
00:48:55.519 --> 00:49:00.800
are just on the border here.
In fact, shipp he goes on to

617
00:49:00.840 --> 00:49:06.519
say that these ideas that there is
this bigger, potentially darker, certainly more

618
00:49:06.599 --> 00:49:09.599
terrifying and awesome reality on the borders, you know, is not unlike what

619
00:49:09.639 --> 00:49:14.320
Tolkien does in the Hobbit with you've
got to talk of the necromancer who's never

620
00:49:14.320 --> 00:49:21.039
really identified or they mentioned the minds
of Maria in the Hobbit, right,

621
00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:27.000
and so it's a children's story that
he's not gonna make too dark. However,

622
00:49:27.239 --> 00:49:30.440
there is that darkness right on the
border. So Artie Jersey he comes

623
00:49:30.440 --> 00:49:34.119
to try to stop the serpent,
who's I guess starting to wake up,

624
00:49:34.159 --> 00:49:38.360
and so he's spinning up this whirlwind. But as everybody complains, like it's

625
00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:42.840
artist fault, right, they all
think it's his fault, so he kind

626
00:49:42.840 --> 00:49:46.840
of but grudgingly goes to contracts some
kind of magic that's gonna stop this ongoing.

627
00:49:47.440 --> 00:49:52.039
But Rover comes up behind him and
uh sees this as his chance to

628
00:49:52.039 --> 00:49:55.599
get back at him for not you
know, fixing his curse, and so

629
00:49:55.639 --> 00:50:02.719
he bites one of the sharks that
is leading the Wizard's chariot, so that

630
00:50:02.719 --> 00:50:06.679
that shark bites another shark, that
bites another shark, and then they take

631
00:50:06.679 --> 00:50:10.000
off until finally one of them bites
the serpent. Right, and so we

632
00:50:10.079 --> 00:50:16.320
see rovers quest for revenge has a
chain reaction, and then we're told that

633
00:50:17.599 --> 00:50:24.440
the sea monster, the serpent,
it finally wakes up but decides not to

634
00:50:24.480 --> 00:50:29.760
do anything. Yeah, it's just
like it rolls over and goes back to

635
00:50:29.760 --> 00:50:32.840
bed. Basically, right, that's
the end of that. But it kind

636
00:50:32.840 --> 00:50:37.760
of an anti climax, but I
think it works in the as a comedic

637
00:50:37.840 --> 00:50:40.719
moment. Yeah, right, because
ultimately the point wasn't the serpent. The

638
00:50:40.760 --> 00:50:47.159
point was the interactions between Rover and
the doll or the Wizard. And so

639
00:50:47.360 --> 00:50:52.599
by this point, the people that
people are so fed up with Art exersise.

640
00:50:52.760 --> 00:50:54.960
You know, he's got all this
pomp and circumstances about him, but

641
00:50:55.400 --> 00:50:58.760
they feel like he hasn't really done
anything good, and so they give him

642
00:50:58.760 --> 00:51:04.280
the boot. Yeah, which actually
works out for Rover because now that you

643
00:51:04.320 --> 00:51:07.719
know he's lost his title as the
Pam, you know, he feels defeated.

644
00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:10.719
And then Rover asked, in one
more time, will you make me

645
00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:14.920
a normal size again? And at
this point, the Wizard says, finally

646
00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:19.800
somebody actually believes I can do something. Yeah, that cracked me up.

647
00:51:19.840 --> 00:51:22.880
That was a really good line.
Yeah, and that's more less the story.

648
00:51:23.239 --> 00:51:29.280
He becomes normal again and then goes
back to the boy. It's yeah,

649
00:51:29.360 --> 00:51:32.559
it's revealed that like the boy was
the grandson of the little old lady

650
00:51:32.599 --> 00:51:37.559
he originally lived with right right,
right right, Yeah, so there's that

651
00:51:37.599 --> 00:51:42.840
connection and like the you know the
boy, Oh what At the end,

652
00:51:42.880 --> 00:51:45.639
there's there's this really charming line,
let me see if I can find it.

653
00:51:45.679 --> 00:51:52.639
We're like where basically the oh what
ideas the child has to be sure,

654
00:51:52.760 --> 00:51:55.039
the grandmother says, because the child
is telling her like I had this

655
00:51:55.159 --> 00:51:59.679
same dog as a toy and then
I lost it he became a real dog,

656
00:51:59.800 --> 00:52:04.719
and yeah, she did not understand
what on earth the little boy was

657
00:52:04.719 --> 00:52:07.280
talking about, though he told her
that he knew about it very exactly,

658
00:52:07.360 --> 00:52:10.760
and over and over again. Yeah, it's such what a little kid would

659
00:52:10.760 --> 00:52:16.119
do. Yeah, and we get
this idea that what appears as nonsense to

660
00:52:16.679 --> 00:52:21.400
rational grown ups is actually the truth. Yeah, it makes perfect sense.

661
00:52:21.400 --> 00:52:23.960
He's and that he belonged not to
her after all, but to little boy

662
00:52:24.039 --> 00:52:30.800
too, because mommy brought him home
with the shrimps. Right. And so

663
00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:36.920
we get this idea that reality is
to be found in apparently foolish things,

664
00:52:37.519 --> 00:52:44.760
right or like oh what uh from
the mouths of children and of babes exactly?

665
00:52:45.159 --> 00:52:49.119
You know, well, you know, I often think of in Tolkien

666
00:52:49.239 --> 00:52:53.320
in the Halls of Healing, right
where Aragorn you know, sends out for

667
00:52:53.599 --> 00:52:58.400
kings foil, you know, to
help those who have been touched by the

668
00:52:58.719 --> 00:53:02.960
black breath. The great residents of
Gondor are saying, you know, king

669
00:53:04.039 --> 00:53:07.719
Spoil, that's just the value for
that is just found in children's stories essentially,

670
00:53:08.039 --> 00:53:14.760
right or and it smells nice,
right Yeah. The pompous old herb

671
00:53:14.880 --> 00:53:17.239
master guy comes out and says all
this stuff, you know, he's like,

672
00:53:17.360 --> 00:53:22.000
uh, it has no value that
we know of, and then he

673
00:53:22.079 --> 00:53:25.360
repeats the whole rhyme that people have
remembered. And he's like,'tis but

674
00:53:25.519 --> 00:53:30.719
a doggerel, I fear garbled in
the memory of old wives. It's memory

675
00:53:30.760 --> 00:53:36.039
I leave to your judgment if indeed
it has any and it's I'm just like

676
00:53:36.159 --> 00:53:38.960
doue. And of course Aragorn shuts
the guy down. He's just like,

677
00:53:39.039 --> 00:53:43.559
shut up, you know, look
right. He pretty much says that it's

678
00:53:43.559 --> 00:53:47.679
often old wives tales that carry forgotten
truths, right, yeah, they keep

679
00:53:47.719 --> 00:53:51.760
in memory, you know, things
that people needed to know, you know,

680
00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:58.119
like and of course yeah, it's
only the the the simple. It's

681
00:53:58.599 --> 00:54:00.960
you know, unless you become like
a little child, he says, you

682
00:54:01.000 --> 00:54:05.920
know. And it's not to be
childish, but to be child like.

683
00:54:06.679 --> 00:54:12.840
You know that that simple trust,
that simple, you know, trust in

684
00:54:12.920 --> 00:54:16.199
providence essentially, because a child has
very little power over anything. A child

685
00:54:16.199 --> 00:54:22.079
has to trust that its parents have
its best interests at heart, because it

686
00:54:22.559 --> 00:54:25.800
has very power to do anything for
itself and has to be led all over

687
00:54:25.840 --> 00:54:30.559
the place and given food and given
a warm place to sleep, and it

688
00:54:30.639 --> 00:54:35.519
trusts that these things will just be
there, you know. And it's like

689
00:54:36.119 --> 00:54:39.119
the more, you know, because
we we read these gospel stories so many

690
00:54:39.159 --> 00:54:44.800
times and sometimes we just sort of
pass over these sayings of deed Jesus without

691
00:54:44.840 --> 00:54:47.199
thinking about them, and like,
yeah, once I started thinking about that

692
00:54:47.239 --> 00:54:51.400
line, I'm like, oh,
of course, you know that's what it

693
00:54:51.480 --> 00:54:54.400
means, you know, like to
you know, to be to have this

694
00:54:55.280 --> 00:55:00.360
radical trust that God is is going
to do what is best for you no

695
00:55:00.400 --> 00:55:07.280
matter what happens. And even like
when the child can't understand when seemingly bad

696
00:55:07.320 --> 00:55:09.360
things happen to it. You know, you're taken to the doctor. It's

697
00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:15.880
this cold room full of all these
unfamiliar smells and sounds. He pinches you

698
00:55:15.920 --> 00:55:19.199
with this sharp thing and it hurts, and the child is like, why

699
00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:23.039
are you doing this to me?
And you know, but the parent knows

700
00:55:23.119 --> 00:55:29.719
that this is what's best for the
child. And yeah, to just have

701
00:55:30.599 --> 00:55:35.280
learning that kind like to become a
little child, to have that childlike trust

702
00:55:35.440 --> 00:55:38.199
is something I've definitely certainly struggled with
in my own life for a long time.

703
00:55:38.880 --> 00:55:44.199
But you know, it's like,
there's only so many times I can

704
00:55:44.280 --> 00:55:49.679
observe things just working out in my
life before it starts to sink in.

705
00:55:50.320 --> 00:55:54.760
Oh, yeah, you know,
things are there's somebody else in control here.

706
00:55:54.840 --> 00:55:59.960
Stop trying to control everything yourself.
And it's kind of like Roverandom,

707
00:56:00.039 --> 00:56:01.960
he can't really control what's happening to
him. He has to trust that,

708
00:56:02.920 --> 00:56:06.840
you know, all these different figures, the man in the Moon and the

709
00:56:06.880 --> 00:56:10.719
sand Wizard, you know, have
his best interests in heart and that the

710
00:56:10.760 --> 00:56:15.119
thing, and even those periods where
he has to wait, you know,

711
00:56:15.239 --> 00:56:19.280
just kind of being on the moon, you know, or those many times

712
00:56:19.280 --> 00:56:22.079
when he goes to our de xer
sees when he's under the scenes. It's

713
00:56:22.119 --> 00:56:23.360
like, well, you turn me
back now, you know, and he

714
00:56:23.440 --> 00:56:28.000
seems to be like rejected. It's
like, you know, when we when

715
00:56:28.239 --> 00:56:31.119
we go through periods of waiting in
our lives and we feel like our prayers

716
00:56:31.119 --> 00:56:35.199
aren't being answered or listened to or
something like that, and it's like,

717
00:56:35.679 --> 00:56:38.239
no, we're We're being made to
go through this time of waiting because it

718
00:56:38.239 --> 00:56:43.440
it has some sort we're supposed to
grow in some way. And the more

719
00:56:43.719 --> 00:56:47.519
like, the less we stop fighting
it, you know, the the more

720
00:56:47.639 --> 00:56:52.480
we'll actually, you know, get
closer to being resolved. You know.

721
00:56:52.599 --> 00:56:55.239
So I really, you know,
and I didn't the first time I read

722
00:56:55.280 --> 00:56:59.440
Roverandom, I didn't think of any
of this stuff. It was only after

723
00:56:59.599 --> 00:57:05.119
like it again, recently that I'm
like, yeah, Rover Random's a lot

724
00:57:05.199 --> 00:57:10.239
like us. You know, random
things seem to happen, but it's not

725
00:57:10.440 --> 00:57:15.760
really random. You know, he
he needs it. It's just all of

726
00:57:15.800 --> 00:57:19.880
it was conducive to him becoming a
good dog. And there is a great

727
00:57:19.960 --> 00:57:22.719
lesson to be had in that.
I mean, you know, as you

728
00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:25.079
highlighted, his name is Rover Random. And on one hand, he's constantly

729
00:57:25.079 --> 00:57:29.079
being pulled to all these random places. He doesn't seem to have a lot

730
00:57:29.119 --> 00:57:30.880
of agency, right, He's just
set out on his plane to go to

731
00:57:30.920 --> 00:57:34.760
the moon, to go to the
sea. These things just kind of happened,

732
00:57:34.760 --> 00:57:37.719
and he's along for the ride.
Yeah, but as you said,

733
00:57:37.920 --> 00:57:39.400
you know, once you get to
the end, he kind of becomes what

734
00:57:39.480 --> 00:57:45.119
he was always meant to become.
And yes, like Bilbo, Like like

735
00:57:45.199 --> 00:57:49.039
Bilbo, he's he he doesn't want
to go on this eventually, Let's just

736
00:57:49.159 --> 00:57:52.280
stay home, smoke his pipe,
drink tea, you know, to have

737
00:57:52.199 --> 00:57:58.440
buttered scones or whatever it is.
And Gandal's like, nope, I'm shoving

738
00:57:58.480 --> 00:58:00.480
you out the door. You were
going on this venture, and a lot

739
00:58:00.519 --> 00:58:04.599
of time in the early part of
the hobbit, he's just along for the

740
00:58:04.679 --> 00:58:07.519
ride, you know, the adventure
with the trolls, you know, getting

741
00:58:07.599 --> 00:58:12.159
dragged through Goblin Town, all that
stuff. But you see him become more

742
00:58:12.199 --> 00:58:15.840
and more his true self as the
book goes on and on, and Bilbo

743
00:58:15.920 --> 00:58:22.039
starts to have more agency once he
embraces the fact that he's on the quests.

744
00:58:22.519 --> 00:58:25.800
You know, the more he resists
it in the early part of the

745
00:58:25.840 --> 00:58:30.400
book, the less agency he has, the more he tries to assert his

746
00:58:30.440 --> 00:58:32.639
agency and be like, I don't
want to do this, he actually has

747
00:58:32.719 --> 00:58:38.760
less agency, right, And I
think that really strikes that this important concept

748
00:58:38.760 --> 00:58:43.800
of freedom, which you're very often
understood as the ability to go in any

749
00:58:43.800 --> 00:58:45.559
direction at all. Right, that's
kind of how freedom is normally understood,

750
00:58:45.639 --> 00:58:50.800
But that's not freedom at all.
That just means that you're the slave of

751
00:58:50.840 --> 00:58:53.719
every whim that you might have.
Whereas right, Yeah, but real freedom

752
00:58:53.800 --> 00:58:58.519
is in fulfillment of form. It's
in being what it is that you're meant

753
00:58:58.599 --> 00:59:01.559
to be. And so the more
that you embrace that direction, the more

754
00:59:01.599 --> 00:59:06.760
freedom you actually have. It's like
you say, you're you're free to draw

755
00:59:06.760 --> 00:59:09.400
a square however you want, as
long as it has four sides, exactly

756
00:59:10.480 --> 00:59:15.119
right, well said, I forget
where I heard that. That's not original

757
00:59:15.159 --> 00:59:16.800
to me, but as you know, it's like one of those things that

758
00:59:16.840 --> 00:59:20.480
once you hear it, you're like, oh, of course, you know

759
00:59:20.519 --> 00:59:23.880
that makes so much sense. I
like that. I'm going to use that.

760
00:59:24.239 --> 00:59:28.920
Well. I think we covered river
random probably about as well as we

761
00:59:28.960 --> 00:59:31.199
can. I mean, do you
have any other thoughts? No? Like

762
00:59:31.320 --> 00:59:35.719
I I it was funny that we
were we were saying at the beginning,

763
00:59:35.760 --> 00:59:38.000
how are we going to cover this? I just knew we would eventually end

764
00:59:38.079 --> 00:59:42.639
up getting something awesome. Yeah,
yeah, the spirit works that way sometimes.

765
00:59:43.039 --> 00:59:46.360
Absolutely. Well, hey say,
we made about an hour through.

766
00:59:46.599 --> 00:59:50.639
I think that this is probably a
good place to wrap it. I appreciate

767
00:59:50.639 --> 00:59:53.599
the discussion. Thanks for coming on
again. Oh thank you, Andrew.

768
00:59:53.719 --> 00:59:58.920
This was a blast. Absolutely,
And just quick remind us where can we

769
00:59:59.199 --> 01:00:02.960
find you find you're working on?
Oh? Sure, so if you go

770
01:00:04.039 --> 01:00:07.719
to my actually let me pull it
up here so I get the url correct.

771
01:00:08.159 --> 01:00:15.559
Actually and don't yes, uh yeah, you can visit my substack newsletter

772
01:00:15.159 --> 01:00:22.159
Thomas J. Salerno dot substack dot
com. My newsletter is called Page Turning

773
01:00:22.840 --> 01:00:25.679
and it's completely free to sign up. I do monthly updates on all the

774
01:00:25.719 --> 01:00:30.000
things I'm up to, partly because
so many people ask me, you know,

775
01:00:30.039 --> 01:00:32.079
where can we find your stuff,
so and of course it's all over

776
01:00:32.119 --> 01:00:36.440
the place, So it's like I
decided to do this kind of one stop

777
01:00:37.159 --> 01:00:38.920
shop where I update people and what
I'm up to. And of course,

778
01:00:38.920 --> 01:00:44.639
as soon as there's anything to announce
about the book, like the title and

779
01:00:44.719 --> 01:00:49.320
everything, you'll see it there first. And I'm I'm planning on doing some

780
01:00:49.400 --> 01:00:53.599
really cool stuff with the newsletter in
the future, including maybe even posting some

781
01:00:53.639 --> 01:01:01.000
short fiction because a friend and I
have been working on some collaborative stories which

782
01:01:01.000 --> 01:01:06.400
are are not for kids though they're
more like adult oriented short stories, but

783
01:01:06.440 --> 01:01:09.840
they have a lot of Christian themes
in them and I think they're very exciting.

784
01:01:09.920 --> 01:01:14.119
So yeah, you can visit my
sub stack. And I'm not really

785
01:01:14.199 --> 01:01:19.480
much on social media these days because
of how much it is just terrible all

786
01:01:19.519 --> 01:01:23.000
around. But yeah, and also
if you get if you just search for

787
01:01:24.280 --> 01:01:30.360
sqpn or Starquest on YouTube, you'll
come up to our YouTube channel where I'm

788
01:01:30.400 --> 01:01:35.800
regularly on the secrets of Middle Earth
and the secrets of movies and TV shows

789
01:01:35.840 --> 01:01:38.119
podcasts. All right, well,
sounds good, So everyone to make sure

790
01:01:38.119 --> 01:01:51.119
to check out his stuff and uh
thanks again, thank you Andrew, thank

791
01:01:51.119 --> 01:01:53.119
you for listening to Mythic Mind.
Be sure to look up Thomas's work,

792
01:01:53.159 --> 01:01:57.920
and as a reminder, I welcome
your support on Patreon. At patreon dot

793
01:01:57.960 --> 01:02:00.199
com, slash Mythic Mind and let
me know if you're interested in the Lewis

794
01:02:00.199 --> 01:02:05.599
course. And until next time,
I wish you many meaningful roads ahead.