This is later with Lee Matthews the Lee Matthews Podcast. More of what you
hear weekday Afternoons on the Drive. Nancy Birsky has worked as a photographer and
picture editor in the International department of The New York Times. She's also a
documentary filmmaker. Her latest creation is called Desperate Souls, Dark City, and
the Legend of Midnight Cowboy. But Nancy, this is not about the making
of Midnight Cowboy. That's correct. We do get into the making and as
it pertains to what I consider the moment of Midnight Cowboy, this is really
about all the influences, all the things that were circling around this film team
as they were making this film and taking a look at the society, the
climate, the culture, all those things that were happening in the sixties to
make us feel that Midnight Cowboy was almost inevitable. Inevitable in what way?
I mean. I've seen the movie and I like the love the movie,
and I remember how much it was influencing pop culture, and it's been influencing
pop culture. But what was going on in the psyche of the nation then
at that time that makes you think, Okay, this was inevitable. You
know, it's interesting you mentioned the psyche. I think it is things that
were happening almost unconsciously. We're living through the Black Civil rights era, the
beginning of it. Actually, this is really coming to four in the sixties,
most importantly Vietnam, which is causing young people and eventually everybody to begin
to question that war and question authority. And without that question and of authority,
we might not have had the gay rights movement. We have Stone Wall
that follows Vietnam by a month, I'm sorry, that follows Midnight Cowboy by
the month. So we have all of this disruption taking place, and at
the same time, what comes in nineteen sixty eight. These people set out
to make a film that's unlike anything you've ever seen. They're looking at society
in a stark, realistic way. We haven't really seen that before, so
I think it's all of a piece, That's what I'm saying that, you
know, as we're looking at society in a more realistic way as people who
are living through it, people who are creating art are also looking at society
in a very realistic way. Nancy Birsky, director of the documentary Desperate Souls,
Dark City and the legend of Midnight Cowboy at this time too, And
I don't know if this started it or what. We were getting more color
films and we were getting more films that were more gritty. It's as though
filmmakers were trying to out grit each other. But did that maybe start with
Midnank Cowboy. I think it did, And I don't think that anyone was
trying to out writ anybody else. I think they were just trying to look
at what surrounded them in a very realistic way. And since much of this
film takes place on Time Square or takes place in this you know, this
tenement that they are squatting in, basically that was gritty. How else do
you show that. You don't make that slick, you don't make it pretty.
This was a film about people who are not living to very pretty life.
So I think that this was an effort to be as realistic about society
as they could be well, and also a disillusionment. You certainly see.
All I see in the character of John Voyd is disillusionment through the whole film.
He's a sad character and yet keep systens, which is kind of what
is so heartwarming about the film. You know, I often wonder why,
with all that grittiness did this film last as it did. It's one of
the big questions that we posed ourselves when we made the movie. And I
think that we see some real humanity in John Boyd's character Joe Buck and also
especially Dustin Hoffman's character rest of Rizzo, who could have been just so unpleasant,
and Hoffman places him in a kind of peculiar, offbeat way with real
humor. This is the name of the documentary, is Desperate Tole's Dark City
and the Legend of Midnight Cowboy. We're talking to the director Nancy Berski,
who is with us. This was also at the height of the counterculture movement,
especially in big cities like New York. Correct. I mean, that's
that's again all part of the same thing. Counterculture represents a kind of pushback
on what is the conventional accepted culture. They're questioning, they're questioning, you
know, society around them, and it's coming out in their art. They're
saying, we don't have to do it the way people expect us to do
it. It's one large psyche of of questioning and subversiveness and change. I
mean, I think everybody is now eager for change, and so I think
we see that in the film. But again, the film is not dealing
with any of those things specifically. It's not dealing with, you know,
the black civil rights movement, it's not dealing with people protesting against Vietnam.
It's not dealing with any of those things overtly. But the psyche is there,
as you said, yeah, and Nancy Birski is with us. The
name of the documentary is Desperate Souls, Dark City and the Legend of Midnight
Cowboy. I didn't realize until recently it got an X rating for about a
minute. Okay, it did get It did get an X rating. That
was due to the producers themselves, who requested the rating. They had been
told, remember this is a period of time when homosexuality was a crime.
Yeah, And they were told by a psychiatrist that because he considered this film
gay friendly, and that if it were gay friendly, then perhaps this would
influence you know, vulnerable young men to cross over and become gay and all
of that, which was all nonsense, of course, And and so they
said, well, listen, this is going to protect us if we have
a gay If this is I'm sorry, if this is an X rating film,
then no one can accuse us of um attracting vulnerable and or to our
film. Um. And of course, very soon after that people realized that
was nonsense, and when asked to change, when asked to change anything in
the film in order to achieve an R right rating, they refused. But
they got the R rating anyway. Yeah, because by today's standards, it's
pretty dame it It certainly is. I think that you know, one of
the one the in our film, John Lessenger's nephew, Ian Bruna Brooma,
makes a really powerful point that the film is first of all, it's not
dealing with gay characters as such. The two protagonists they have an unusual relationship
and a beautiful relationship, but there's no you're not sure what is happening in
that relationship. It's ambiguous. Um. But it does deal with some ideas
about homosexuality in the way that gays were treated. Then, yeah, and
that's pretty important. You know that we see that these they gave gay men
have a tough life. Yeah. Yeah, and all of that I mean
just comes out in there and there and their interactions with one another. But
yeah, I think what you are. What you're referring to the beautiful relationship
is that they realize they need each other to survive. They really do.
And I'd like to think that we can broaden that idea, and that is
that not only do individuals need each other tot, but I think, you
know, society needs all of We all need each other to survive. You
know, we all need to push back on things that are unfair and and
and what we call systemic injustice and injustice in general. I mean, we
really do need to help each other or we're going to be in serious trouble.
Desperate Souls, Dark City and the Legend of Midnight Cowboy, the documentary
is out of everywhere you see your documentaries and films. Nancy Bersky is the
director and I thank you for joining us today. It's my pleasure. Thank
you. Thanks for listening to Later with Lee Matthews, the Lee Matthews Podcast,
and remember to listen to The Drive Live weekday afternoons from five to seven
and I Hearts Media Presentation