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This is later with Lee Matthews the
Lee Matthews Podcast. More of what you

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hear weekday Afternoons on the Drive.
Nancy Birsky has worked as a photographer and

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picture editor in the International department of
The New York Times. She's also a

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documentary filmmaker. Her latest creation is
called Desperate Souls, Dark City, and

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the Legend of Midnight Cowboy. But
Nancy, this is not about the making

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of Midnight Cowboy. That's correct.
We do get into the making and as

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it pertains to what I consider the
moment of Midnight Cowboy, this is really

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about all the influences, all the
things that were circling around this film team

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as they were making this film and
taking a look at the society, the

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climate, the culture, all those
things that were happening in the sixties to

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make us feel that Midnight Cowboy was
almost inevitable. Inevitable in what way?

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I mean. I've seen the movie
and I like the love the movie,

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and I remember how much it was
influencing pop culture, and it's been influencing

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pop culture. But what was going
on in the psyche of the nation then

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at that time that makes you think, Okay, this was inevitable. You

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know, it's interesting you mentioned the
psyche. I think it is things that

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were happening almost unconsciously. We're living
through the Black Civil rights era, the

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beginning of it. Actually, this
is really coming to four in the sixties,

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most importantly Vietnam, which is causing
young people and eventually everybody to begin

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to question that war and question authority. And without that question and of authority,

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we might not have had the gay
rights movement. We have Stone Wall

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that follows Vietnam by a month,
I'm sorry, that follows Midnight Cowboy by

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the month. So we have all
of this disruption taking place, and at

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the same time, what comes in
nineteen sixty eight. These people set out

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to make a film that's unlike anything
you've ever seen. They're looking at society

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in a stark, realistic way.
We haven't really seen that before, so

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I think it's all of a piece, That's what I'm saying that, you

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know, as we're looking at society
in a more realistic way as people who

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are living through it, people who
are creating art are also looking at society

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in a very realistic way. Nancy
Birsky, director of the documentary Desperate Souls,

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Dark City and the legend of Midnight
Cowboy at this time too, And

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I don't know if this started it
or what. We were getting more color

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films and we were getting more films
that were more gritty. It's as though

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filmmakers were trying to out grit each
other. But did that maybe start with

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Midnank Cowboy. I think it did, And I don't think that anyone was

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trying to out writ anybody else.
I think they were just trying to look

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at what surrounded them in a very
realistic way. And since much of this

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film takes place on Time Square or
takes place in this you know, this

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tenement that they are squatting in,
basically that was gritty. How else do

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you show that. You don't make
that slick, you don't make it pretty.

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This was a film about people who
are not living to very pretty life.

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So I think that this was an
effort to be as realistic about society

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as they could be well, and
also a disillusionment. You certainly see.

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All I see in the character of
John Voyd is disillusionment through the whole film.

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He's a sad character and yet keep
systens, which is kind of what

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is so heartwarming about the film.
You know, I often wonder why,

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with all that grittiness did this film
last as it did. It's one of

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the big questions that we posed ourselves
when we made the movie. And I

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think that we see some real humanity
in John Boyd's character Joe Buck and also

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especially Dustin Hoffman's character rest of Rizzo, who could have been just so unpleasant,

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and Hoffman places him in a kind
of peculiar, offbeat way with real

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humor. This is the name of
the documentary, is Desperate Tole's Dark City

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and the Legend of Midnight Cowboy.
We're talking to the director Nancy Berski,

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who is with us. This was
also at the height of the counterculture movement,

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especially in big cities like New York. Correct. I mean, that's

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that's again all part of the same
thing. Counterculture represents a kind of pushback

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on what is the conventional accepted culture. They're questioning, they're questioning, you

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know, society around them, and
it's coming out in their art. They're

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saying, we don't have to do
it the way people expect us to do

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it. It's one large psyche of
of questioning and subversiveness and change. I

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mean, I think everybody is now
eager for change, and so I think

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we see that in the film.
But again, the film is not dealing

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with any of those things specifically.
It's not dealing with, you know,

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the black civil rights movement, it's
not dealing with people protesting against Vietnam.

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It's not dealing with any of those
things overtly. But the psyche is there,

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as you said, yeah, and
Nancy Birski is with us. The

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name of the documentary is Desperate Souls, Dark City and the Legend of Midnight

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Cowboy. I didn't realize until recently
it got an X rating for about a

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minute. Okay, it did get
It did get an X rating. That

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was due to the producers themselves,
who requested the rating. They had been

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told, remember this is a period
of time when homosexuality was a crime.

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Yeah, And they were told by
a psychiatrist that because he considered this film

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gay friendly, and that if it
were gay friendly, then perhaps this would

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influence you know, vulnerable young men
to cross over and become gay and all

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of that, which was all nonsense, of course, And and so they

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said, well, listen, this
is going to protect us if we have

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a gay If this is I'm sorry, if this is an X rating film,

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then no one can accuse us of
um attracting vulnerable and or to our

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film. Um. And of course, very soon after that people realized that

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was nonsense, and when asked to
change, when asked to change anything in

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the film in order to achieve an
R right rating, they refused. But

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they got the R rating anyway.
Yeah, because by today's standards, it's

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pretty dame it It certainly is.
I think that you know, one of

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the one the in our film,
John Lessenger's nephew, Ian Bruna Brooma,

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makes a really powerful point that the
film is first of all, it's not

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dealing with gay characters as such.
The two protagonists they have an unusual relationship

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and a beautiful relationship, but there's
no you're not sure what is happening in

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that relationship. It's ambiguous. Um. But it does deal with some ideas

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about homosexuality in the way that gays
were treated. Then, yeah, and

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that's pretty important. You know that
we see that these they gave gay men

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have a tough life. Yeah.
Yeah, and all of that I mean

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just comes out in there and there
and their interactions with one another. But

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yeah, I think what you are. What you're referring to the beautiful relationship

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is that they realize they need each
other to survive. They really do.

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And I'd like to think that we
can broaden that idea, and that is

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that not only do individuals need each
other tot, but I think, you

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know, society needs all of We
all need each other to survive. You

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know, we all need to push
back on things that are unfair and and

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and what we call systemic injustice and
injustice in general. I mean, we

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really do need to help each other
or we're going to be in serious trouble.

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Desperate Souls, Dark City and the
Legend of Midnight Cowboy, the documentary

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is out of everywhere you see your
documentaries and films. Nancy Bersky is the

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director and I thank you for joining
us today. It's my pleasure. Thank

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you. Thanks for listening to Later
with Lee Matthews, the Lee Matthews Podcast,

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and remember to listen to The Drive
Live weekday afternoons from five to seven

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and I Hearts Media Presentation