1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:45,799 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and 10 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:50,759 I'm Bill Thomas. Welcome to another exciting, fun filled episode of our true 11 00:00:50,759 --> 00:00:53,799 crime podcast, and thank you all so much for listening. We hope you've 12 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:58,000 enjoyed our last couple of episodes. So what we've been talking about in the 13 00:00:58,079 --> 00:01:02,920 last couple of episodes, Kristin Dilly, we had a really wonderful conversation with 14 00:01:03,039 --> 00:01:06,680 Kate Miles, author of Trails who came in to talk to us about the 15 00:01:06,879 --> 00:01:12,760 recent developments and the Julie Williams and Lollywinan's murders, as well as her criticisms 16 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:19,200 rightfully of some of the ways that the FBI was handling this information. We 17 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,799 shared some of her criticisms, and so I feel like it was a very 18 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:27,000 good, interesting and insightful conversation, and we hope that all of you feel 19 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:32,760 that way as well. We just ran two brand new episodes last Monday and 20 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,359 last Thursday, featuring Kate. I think we had a lot of really good 21 00:01:36,359 --> 00:01:38,640 information to put out there, and so we hope that all of you enjoyed 22 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,840 it too. We know it was a much anticipated episode. We had mentioned 23 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,599 that Kate was going to come on the pod and people were very excited. 24 00:01:46,719 --> 00:01:49,200 We hope that we did you proud with those episodes. Bill, What did 25 00:01:49,239 --> 00:01:53,680 you think about our conversations with Kate? I thought it was terrific in terms 26 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,920 of a conversation. I learned a lot, and Kate's insights into the Julie 27 00:01:57,959 --> 00:02:05,760 Williams Lollywine case and the investigation of that case I thought were extremely interesting. 28 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:12,479 I saw all the enthusiastic questions that we received on social media from our listeners, 29 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,360 and I know you tried to integrate as many of those questions as you 30 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:21,680 could into the conversation. One thing Kate mentioned that I'm also hearing from other 31 00:02:21,759 --> 00:02:27,199 sources now is that a lot of people in the media, and I would 32 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:35,199 actually put Catherine Miles in the media category trailed is probably the definitive version of 33 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,840 what happened, at least publicly in the Julie Williams Solly Winens murder. And 34 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:47,000 she expressed a great deal of frustration with the FBI's ongoing refusal to answer questions 35 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:55,800 about how they did this amazing work in solving the Shenandoah murders and identifying Walter 36 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,800 Leo Jackson, Sr. As the case killer of Julie Williams and Lawley Winans. 37 00:03:02,039 --> 00:03:06,080 I just want to mention I'll leave names out of it, but I'm 38 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:12,919 hearing from a number of other media sources that they have been asking the FBI 39 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:20,000 and the US Attorney's Office the exact same type of questions that Kate was asking 40 00:03:20,039 --> 00:03:24,960 the FBI recently, and they're getting the straight arm, just a complete refusal. 41 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:30,919 The US Attorney is saying, ask the FBI, and then the FBI 42 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:36,560 is saying we won't answer those questions. I think their behavior is outrageous. 43 00:03:37,159 --> 00:03:40,879 I really do. I agree, and there are some similarities to the way 44 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:47,000 that the FBI is handling this information about Shenandoah and the way that they handled 45 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:52,080 the information in our case back in January. What we'd like to do for 46 00:03:52,159 --> 00:03:58,520 this episode is we would like to first of all, share a story that 47 00:03:58,759 --> 00:04:04,159 ran in the Virginia Pilots about our case a couple of weeks back. We 48 00:04:04,159 --> 00:04:09,840 were initially going to get to it before the news on Shenandoah broke, but 49 00:04:09,879 --> 00:04:14,360 then Shenandoah needed to come first, understandably, So we're going to share that 50 00:04:14,479 --> 00:04:16,160 article, and then we're going to go ahead and have a sort of compare 51 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:20,800 a contrast session, if you will, about the things that we see the 52 00:04:20,879 --> 00:04:26,560 FBI having done in our case that they are continuing to do in Shenandoah. 53 00:04:26,879 --> 00:04:31,199 And I think that will be illuminating for everybody to see what the FBI's standard 54 00:04:31,519 --> 00:04:36,839 practice is when it comes to providing or not providing information that they don't want 55 00:04:36,879 --> 00:04:43,600 people to know. This article actually ran in two newspapers. It ran in 56 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:48,279 the Virginian Pilot and in the Daily Press. Peter Dujardin is the reporter. 57 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:54,839 We're going to steer you towards the Virginian because that one is not behind a 58 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:59,560 paywall. It's essentially the same article, same photographs. It's very well written 59 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,560 in rec searched. When we talk about the article, we're mostly going to 60 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:11,360 be referencing the edition that appeared in Virginian because it's not behind a paywall. 61 00:05:12,079 --> 00:05:16,480 This article has actually been in the works for a while. When Bill was 62 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:23,720 here in Virginia with me on May thirteenth for our live event, this reporter, 63 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:29,199 Peter Giujardin, showed up at our event and had a chance to talk 64 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,519 with Bill a little more in depth. So this has been in the works 65 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:36,519 for quite a while, and it is quite an excellent, thorough, in 66 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:41,959 depth articles. Because we know that there are people from other countries who cannot 67 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,560 necessarily see this information, we wanted to go ahead and have an episode where 68 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,959 we shared it out with you and then we unpack the contents here. So 69 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:54,920 I'll go ahead and start and then Bill will fly in with color commentary as 70 00:05:55,040 --> 00:06:00,279 needed. So this is from the Virginian Pilot. FBI suspects Northern neckman in 71 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:06,120 second Colonial Parkway murder case Families Told by Peter Dujardin, published June sixteenth, 72 00:06:06,199 --> 00:06:12,279 twenty twenty four. A deceased Lancaster County waterman, Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior, 73 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,319 was implicated earlier this year in one of the Colonial Parkway murders. The 74 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:23,319 State Police announced in January that Wilmer's DNA matched genetic material found in the slains 75 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:29,800 thirty seven years ago of David Nobling twenty and Robin Edwards fourteen. On September 76 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:33,519 twenty first, nineteen eighty seven, Nobling's pickup was found unattended in a small 77 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:38,839 parking lot near the James River Bridge in Isle of Wight County. The driver's 78 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:43,959 store flung open, the radio plane and his wallet on the dashboard. Two 79 00:06:44,079 --> 00:06:47,959 days later, the two bodies washed ashore at a nature preserve two miles downriver. 80 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:54,759 Both had been shot the team Robin Edwards had been sexually assaulted. A 81 00:06:54,879 --> 00:06:58,680 couple of things. First of all, we're not here to pick apart Peter 82 00:06:58,879 --> 00:07:02,480 Dujardin's article. We actually think it's three days later, depending on how you 83 00:07:02,519 --> 00:07:06,959 look at it. It was not public information, although we knew about it 84 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:13,199 for decades that Robin Edward had been sexually assaulted. We knew that Robin had 85 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:17,399 been sexually assaulted. We knew that there was DNA available as a result of 86 00:07:17,399 --> 00:07:21,920 that sexual assault, and we knew for a number of years, but never 87 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:30,279 stated publicly that they had tested the DNA several times unsuccessfully. Remember this case 88 00:07:30,399 --> 00:07:33,480 dates all the way back to eighty seven. Forensics are not what they are 89 00:07:33,519 --> 00:07:40,079 now in twenty twenty four, and one of our concerns was that with the 90 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:45,600 repeated testing of the evidence in Robin's body, we were concerned that we might 91 00:07:45,759 --> 00:07:49,240 run out of DNA. Fortunately, that did not pan out, but that 92 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:54,959 was something that was very much bubbling under for a number of years, especially 93 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:59,920 in the last year since we learned that the Virginia State Police were going back 94 00:08:00,079 --> 00:08:05,360 and retesting the evidence in the Robin Edwards David Knobling murder. Also at the 95 00:08:05,439 --> 00:08:09,560 January news conference, Hampton Police said they had connected Wilmer to the nineteen eighty 96 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:16,399 nine slaye of twenty nine year old Teresa Lynn Howell, a case not previously 97 00:08:16,519 --> 00:08:20,480 tied to the Parkway cases. The York County woman left a nightclub on East 98 00:08:20,519 --> 00:08:26,480 Mercury Boulevard that July and was found dead at a Hampton construction site the next 99 00:08:26,519 --> 00:08:31,680 morning she had been raped and strangled. And just as a reminder, we 100 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:37,720 were not familiar with Teresa Lynn Howell's name or her case by the time this 101 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,320 January press conference rolled around. This is brand new information to us. We 102 00:08:41,399 --> 00:08:45,919 have since talked to her family quite a bit more in our learning more about 103 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:50,559 her. At the point that all of this came up in January, we 104 00:08:50,639 --> 00:08:54,879 did not have any knowledge of Terry Howell or her case at that point. 105 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:01,159 The Wilmer died of natural causes in twenty seventeen at a sixty three. Investigators 106 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:07,440 were able to link the Northern neckman to the cold cases by DNA. The 107 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,080 state police and Hampton Police said he would have been charged with murder if he 108 00:09:11,159 --> 00:09:18,879 were still alive. Now the FBI has told two more families that Wilmer is 109 00:09:18,919 --> 00:09:24,840 the primary suspect in another Colonial Parkway case, a presumed double slain that Wilmer 110 00:09:24,919 --> 00:09:30,840 was suspected of some thirty six years ago. And by that, of course, 111 00:09:30,879 --> 00:09:35,960 we're referring to the case of Keith Call and Cassandra Hanley. And this 112 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:41,559 was one of the things we were extremely unhappy about. We knew months before 113 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:46,320 the January press conference that this news was coming from our other media sources. 114 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:52,879 So we were told months before this would have been in October twenty twenty three, 115 00:09:54,360 --> 00:10:00,120 from these media sources that a suspect had been identified in the disappearance of 116 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:05,840 Keith Colin, Cassandra Haley, and in them specifically in the murder of Robin 117 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,200 Edwards and David Nobling. And then this was the first time we heard this 118 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:15,720 name, Teresa Lynn Howell, as Kristen says, a victim we were not 119 00:10:15,879 --> 00:10:20,120 familiar with at that time. What was disturbing then is as the press conference 120 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:28,879 unfolds and somehow the Keith call Cassandra Hailey information is not forthcoming. They don't 121 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:33,960 even mention it, and that part created a significant amount of frustration for us. 122 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,960 The FBI cleared Wilmer in the nineteen eighty eight case after he passed a 123 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:45,200 lie detector test, according to an author who in twenty sixteen interviewed the region's 124 00:10:45,279 --> 00:10:50,039 former FBI former Special Agent in charge who oversaw the investigation. That author, 125 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,039 of course, is Blain Pardo, who we were very happy to have as 126 00:10:54,120 --> 00:11:01,000 our special guest at our May thirteenth live event at the York County Library and 127 00:11:01,039 --> 00:11:07,440 the former special Agent in charge at the FBI Newport, News and Norfolk offices 128 00:11:07,799 --> 00:11:13,840 is the late IRV Wells, who died a couple of years ago. And 129 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:18,840 in addition to talking to Blaine Pardo about this, I spoke with IRV Wells 130 00:11:18,919 --> 00:11:24,960 myself on two separate occasions for a number of hours, and he went back 131 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:31,320 and reiterated what Kristin and I often called privately the Driveway story, because it 132 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:39,600 involved two FBI agents going up to Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior's family's home in 133 00:11:39,759 --> 00:11:45,039 Lancaster, Virginia. And we'll get into more details on that in a couple 134 00:11:45,039 --> 00:11:50,759 of minutes, but Wilmer is now back atop the suspect list. Victims' families 135 00:11:50,759 --> 00:11:56,759 have recently been told in that case, two Christopher Newport University students, Keith 136 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:01,159 call twenty of Gloucester and Sandra Haley, eighteen of York County, left a 137 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:05,960 party near Cingu about two am on April tenth, nineteen eighty eight, on 138 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:11,000 their first date. About six hours later, a ranger on the Colonial Parkway 139 00:12:11,159 --> 00:12:16,679 found Calls nineteen eighty two Toyota selica holdover on a scenic overlook of the York 140 00:12:16,799 --> 00:12:22,919 River near indian Field Creek. The driver's store was open and Call's car keys 141 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,360 were on the front seat, The Daily Press reported at the time. Investigators 142 00:12:26,399 --> 00:12:31,879 also found beer cans, Haley's purse, Call's wallet, and the couple's clothes. 143 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:37,399 Press accounts said search as of the water found no trace of the couple. 144 00:12:37,759 --> 00:12:43,600 They were never seen again. When we talk about DNA evidence and items 145 00:12:43,639 --> 00:12:48,240 from Keith and Sandy's car. By the way, when you see a list 146 00:12:48,279 --> 00:12:52,840 like this from Peter Dujardin, this gives you a pretty good idea of the 147 00:12:52,039 --> 00:12:58,559 kind of things that were tested back in the eighties, had been retested and 148 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:03,960 now are going back in some cases for a third or even fourth test with 149 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:11,840 advanced forensics improving every single year. These items have been tested and even retested 150 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:18,240 looking for more information about can we place an offender at the point where Keith 151 00:13:18,279 --> 00:13:24,080 and Sandy go missing? And the last place we know about is Keith calls 152 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:31,600 Toyota Celica. There's a subhead titled what did FBI say at meeting? About 153 00:13:31,639 --> 00:13:35,480 a month ago? Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley, who run the Mind over 154 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:41,240 Murder podcast, delivered news during a recording before a packed house at the Yorktown 155 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:46,720 Library. Thomas said the FBI told the Call and Haley families that federal agents 156 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:54,440 are nearly certain Wilmer killed them. Thomas of Connecticut is an older brother to 157 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:58,679 Kathy Thomas, a Naval Academy graduate who was killed in the first Colonial Parkway 158 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:05,559 slave in nineteen eighty six. A retired executive in the entertainment industry, Thomas 159 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,679 now spends plenty of hours these days on the parkway cases. I laughed out 160 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,320 loud when I read this, because I don't think of myself as very retired. 161 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:20,039 Yeah, you've never described yourself that way either. No, I usually 162 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:24,480 resist that word, but it is what it is. One of the reasons, 163 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:26,720 and this won't surprise anybody. I don't know how often I've said this 164 00:14:26,759 --> 00:14:31,279 out loud. One of the reasons why we moved back to the East Coast 165 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:37,480 from Los Angeles was I was intending to spend more time helping to move forward 166 00:14:37,559 --> 00:14:41,440 the Colonial Parkway murders, with your help, of course, and the help 167 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:46,320 of many other people. And then we worked like dogs on this old house 168 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,039 we're fixing up here in Connecticut. And right around the time we were done 169 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:54,799 with the first phase, which is redoing the interior of this big old house. 170 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:58,000 We are emerging from our borough picture. I don't know, a meerkat 171 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:03,759 or a rabbit stick his head out of the whole. Prairie dog. I 172 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,159 like prairie dogs, Parry dog. And then this thing came along which my 173 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:15,799 older brother who's a doctor, an epidemiologist actually, Richard studies disease outbreaks. 174 00:15:16,159 --> 00:15:18,639 He told us there was this thing coming from China and we were like what. 175 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,440 And so then the next thing, you know, for what the next 176 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:26,039 three years or so, we're all hunkered down with this thing called COVID. 177 00:15:26,399 --> 00:15:33,080 So that really slowed us down in terms of travel and the ability to get 178 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,559 to Virginia, and a lot of stuff that was really important to us wasn't 179 00:15:37,639 --> 00:15:41,639 happening. And even when you and I first created Mind Over Murder, our 180 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:46,759 intention was that we were going to do a fair amount of episodes face to 181 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,080 face with COVID and all. We ended up doing some workarounds that I think 182 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:56,240 have worked pretty well. That mostly involved Kristen and Virginia Bill in Connecticut. 183 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,720 It's actually exciting when we're in the same row. Yeah, it was very 184 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,919 interesting because right from the jump you and I had recorded a couple episodes. 185 00:16:06,519 --> 00:16:11,159 What was it. It was in December of twenty nineteen, with a drop 186 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,440 date of January twenty twenty. And then right around the time that we dropped, 187 00:16:15,559 --> 00:16:19,559 we were hearing about this crazy pandemic called COVID. But also at the 188 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:26,200 same time, my school had caught on fire and we were having all sorts 189 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:30,000 of issues with that, and then we got shut down entirely for the pandemic, 190 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,960 and there was all sorts of absolutely bananas things going on in our life. 191 00:16:34,799 --> 00:16:37,360 So I would say, really, this is the first year what we've 192 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:42,600 been able to consistently see each other and work together. But even still, 193 00:16:42,639 --> 00:16:47,000 when you're down here, it's not like we're sitting down at my kitchen table 194 00:16:47,279 --> 00:16:52,399 doing podcasts. No, it's mainly you and I running around and seeing people. 195 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:57,240 Yeah, we did sit down briefly at your kitchen table recently when I 196 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:02,240 was down there doing one of our Life Live podcast events, which Peter de 197 00:17:02,399 --> 00:17:08,319 Jardin references in the article. We still haven't recorded a face to face episode 198 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:14,160 since the very beginning of Mind Over Murder. No, we did one when 199 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:15,880 I came up to visit you with Mark, Yes, and we did one 200 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,720 in your office, but I think that was that's the last's really the only 201 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:26,519 time we were on opposite sides of the table as opposed to communicating electronically. 202 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,400 Yeah, and of course it was wonderful to do the live sessions here, 203 00:17:30,759 --> 00:17:34,799 but that is still very different doing a live podcast in front of a live 204 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:41,079 audience than it is just doing what we do. The FBI, including its 205 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,559 lead Colonial Parkway investigators, sat down with the Colin Haley families two days before 206 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:51,960 the January eighth news conference. Thomas said in the podcast recording on May thirteenth, 207 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,319 quote, they said they were ninety nine percent sure that Alan Wade Wilmer 208 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,720 was responsible for the disappearance and likely homicide of so Keith Call and Cassandra Haley. 209 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:07,039 Thomas said, they said that privately to the families. This is one 210 00:18:07,079 --> 00:18:11,240 of the areas of great frustration. As you'll see as the article unfolds, 211 00:18:11,079 --> 00:18:17,240 The families have been told things privately by the FBI and the Virginia State Police, 212 00:18:17,599 --> 00:18:22,839 and then the discomfort kicks in and even anger at times. And I 213 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:27,839 don't just mean me here, other family members they're very uncomfortable with being told 214 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:33,599 something privately by the FBI. But then the FBI and the Virginia State Police 215 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:40,039 won't confirm those things in a public way. And this is really compounding the 216 00:18:40,319 --> 00:18:45,559 unhappiness for the families, because, as we've talked about before, it's not 217 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:49,799 like Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior is going to be brought into a courtroom and 218 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:56,759 charged with rape and murder in the Colonial Parkway murders and perhaps kidnapping and other 219 00:18:56,839 --> 00:19:02,519 charges. The man's been dead since what twy seven. We don't understand all 220 00:19:02,559 --> 00:19:07,279 of this secrecy, but I'll let you continue with the article. When the 221 00:19:07,319 --> 00:19:11,920 State Police and FBI held the joint news conference two days later, nobody mentioned 222 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:18,039 the nineteen eighty eight case. One of Sandy Haley's two older sisters, Terry 223 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:22,480 Haley Holman, disputed Thomas's assertions, saying the case agent and the FBI did 224 00:19:22,519 --> 00:19:27,319 not speak so definitively at the January meeting. All they wanted us to know 225 00:19:27,519 --> 00:19:32,960 was that Wilmer was connected to the Isle of Wight and Hampton cases and possibly 226 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,480 to ours. Is all they would say, said Hailey Holman, sixty three, 227 00:19:36,839 --> 00:19:40,640 of Northern Virginia. But nobody ever said ninety nine percent. They never 228 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:45,440 even said in the nineties, They never gave a percentage. I'm not looking 229 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,359 to get into a pissing contest with Terry Hailey Holman, who's someone I hold 230 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:55,200 in very high regard and we've worked very closely together over the years. I 231 00:19:55,240 --> 00:20:03,680 think my mistake is I think I'm blending conversations that took place with different family 232 00:20:03,759 --> 00:20:10,759 members. Clearly Terry did not hear the FBI say ninety nine percent, other 233 00:20:10,839 --> 00:20:14,680 family members did. Because I think everybody knows me well enough to know I'm 234 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:19,160 not making this up. I said ninety nine percent because the FBI said ninety 235 00:20:19,279 --> 00:20:25,200 nine percent. Clearly Terry didn't hear that, and perhaps it wasn't said to 236 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,039 her. So in that regard, I owe Terry an apology. I don't 237 00:20:29,079 --> 00:20:33,079 mean to make it sound like she was told something that she was not. 238 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:38,240 Haley Holman said. The FBI agent did relate that eyewitnesses put Wilmer on the 239 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:44,200 Colonial Parkway in the vicinity of where Call's car was found, and that Wilmer 240 00:20:44,319 --> 00:20:48,640 put himself there that night when the FBI interrogated him in nineteen eighty eight, 241 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,519 and we're pretty sure that is related to this habit. We have learned that 242 00:20:53,599 --> 00:21:00,880 he had of stalking couples on the Colonial Parkway, walking up to the windows 243 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:06,119 of cars, banging on them, asking for driver's licenses, not registration, 244 00:21:06,279 --> 00:21:10,559 just driver's licenses, and that sort of behavior. So when it says Wilmer 245 00:21:10,599 --> 00:21:14,200 put himself there, I assume, and again this is just an assumption, 246 00:21:14,279 --> 00:21:15,519 but Bill, you can jump right in there with me if you think so. 247 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:18,839 I assume that is him basically copying to Yeah, I was on the 248 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,799 parkway doing that thing. I do. I assume that's what that was. 249 00:21:23,759 --> 00:21:30,000 Also, we've heard a version of the story of the disappearance of Keith Colin 250 00:21:30,079 --> 00:21:37,119 Cassandra Haley, where different people reported that this man driving this very distinctive truck, 251 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,599 this nineteen sixty six Dodge Dakota pickup truck, blue green in color, 252 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:47,039 with writing on the doors, and with this very distinctive rig on the back 253 00:21:47,319 --> 00:21:52,119 used by Waterman, and that he was cruising one of these half moon pull 254 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:57,400 offs after another that particular night. He may or may not have been harassing 255 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,039 couples. No one's said they were harassed that evening. Supposedly, his cover 256 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,720 story was that he was looking for a woman he'd met in an X rated 257 00:22:07,799 --> 00:22:12,480 theater. I know this sounds absurd, that's what he claimed, but he 258 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:18,039 did, as Terry's pointing out, put himself on the Colonial Parkway the night 259 00:22:18,279 --> 00:22:23,319 that Keith and Sandy went missing. Continuing with Terry's quote, if that's ninety 260 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,839 nine percent, I beg to differ because it's really not Sid Haley Holman, 261 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,960 who worked for about five years as a New Britany's police officer, because he 262 00:22:32,039 --> 00:22:34,480 frequented that place a lot. So until I have DNA or something a little 263 00:22:34,519 --> 00:22:38,799 more concrete, I'm not signing off on it. Let me add Terry's right, 264 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,240 as I said, if I owe her an apology, I don't mean 265 00:22:42,279 --> 00:22:47,759 to put words in her mouth regarding the ninety nine percent. So I think 266 00:22:47,759 --> 00:22:49,640 that's where we're getting a little bit of the pushback from Terry. And she's 267 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:55,880 completely entitled to say what she says. And remember she was in the room 268 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:00,559 when much of this was discussed. I was not. But let's also remember 269 00:23:00,799 --> 00:23:04,559 other family members were also in the room and had follow up conversations with the 270 00:23:04,599 --> 00:23:12,000 FBI, and that's where the ninety nine percent comment originates from. You're listening 271 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:18,400 to Mindover Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. 272 00:23:23,559 --> 00:23:29,519 We're back here at Mindover Murder. Before we get back to the podcast, 273 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,599 just wanted to remind you that we have a go fundme effort going on right 274 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:38,079 now. This campaign is designed to help us raise funds to help promote Mindover 275 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:45,000 Murder, and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward. We'd love 276 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,839 it if you could support us in any way that you can. Any donation 277 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,759 from five dollars to whatever you can afford is very much appreciated and will be 278 00:23:53,799 --> 00:23:57,960 incredibly helpful. The link is in the show notes and in our social media 279 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:03,519 pages. As always, thanks for your support. Now back to Mind Over 280 00:24:03,599 --> 00:24:11,079 Murder. Because Colin Haley's bodies are still missing, DNA testing has been hampered. 281 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,359 A diverse search of a section of the York River in February failed to 282 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,799 turn up any new leads. Keith calls Toyota was returned to the family and 283 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:25,000 sold off decades ago, but sources said the FBI still has some evidence from 284 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:30,319 the crime scene that is being retested with more advanced techniques. There's stuff at 285 00:24:30,319 --> 00:24:33,799 the lab, but I have no idea what Haley Holman said. They don't 286 00:24:33,799 --> 00:24:37,480 go into specifics Our sources, by the way, have pointed out to us 287 00:24:37,559 --> 00:24:41,599 they now believe that the FBI, Virginia State Police, and a number of 288 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:51,880 other agencies have actually conducted three separate water searches since January in specific locations. 289 00:24:52,519 --> 00:24:55,799 I find the whole thing a bit baffling. I'm not criticizing, and we're 290 00:24:55,839 --> 00:25:00,920 outside the investigation, so I can't tell you anything that we know about these 291 00:25:02,079 --> 00:25:07,119 water searches. I'm straining a little bit to figure out what the FBI, 292 00:25:07,279 --> 00:25:12,000 Virginia State Police, and other agencies and their dive teams working together. One 293 00:25:12,319 --> 00:25:15,680 witness who spoke to us a couple of weeks ago said there were as many 294 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:22,160 as a dozen different vehicles at these sites. I strain a little bit because 295 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:29,240 I'm trying to figure out what would they find thirty six years later in these 296 00:25:29,279 --> 00:25:33,000 bodies of water, Particularly when we know that Wilmer had access to a boat 297 00:25:33,039 --> 00:25:37,400 that Denny Wade, and he used that boat frequently. We think there's a 298 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:42,119 very strong possibility he may have taken bodies out and disposed of them in deeper 299 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:48,839 water. So these searches, which are actually fairly close to the Colonial Parkway, 300 00:25:48,319 --> 00:25:55,039 I don't know. I suppose there could be bones or something made of 301 00:25:55,160 --> 00:26:00,240 metal, like a knife or a gun or other weapon ye may have been 302 00:26:00,279 --> 00:26:03,839 tossed in the water. I think this is a real long shot. I 303 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:10,279 admire law enforcement for trying everything they can think of, and perhaps they have 304 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:15,720 new information regarding places they should be looking at for potential evidence disposal sites. 305 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,759 It seems like a long shot, but other long shots have panned out, 306 00:26:21,839 --> 00:26:26,119 so I appreciate the fact that they're trying. Call's sister, Joyce Call of 307 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,599 Canada, said she doesn't remember the FBI agent giving a percentage certainty in Wilmer's 308 00:26:30,599 --> 00:26:34,359 culpability in her brothers in Haley's disappearance, they said he's a strong suspect, 309 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,960 said Call of Canada, sixty two of Gloucester, that he was seen all 310 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,839 around that area where the car was dropped off. Thomas, however, stands 311 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,720 by what he said in the May podcast, which he said was based on 312 00:26:45,759 --> 00:26:48,319 conversations with someone in the room. I know what I know, and I 313 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:52,039 know what people told me, he said Friday. You need to know the 314 00:26:52,079 --> 00:26:55,119 FBI is putting a tremendous amount of pressure on a lot of different people, 315 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,960 myself included. They don't like what we're saying, even though it's the truth. 316 00:26:59,319 --> 00:27:00,720 I feel like I should just heav you read your own quotes out loud. 317 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,200 Here, I am doing my best Bill Thomas impression when like there you 318 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:12,759 are right there now, You're doing a good job of playing Bill TAAs ahead. 319 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,400 Do you want to speak to that though about the fact that, because 320 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,440 it is a very interesting quote there, Bill, the FBI is putting a 321 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,759 tremendous amount of pressure on a lot of different people, myself included. Do 322 00:27:22,799 --> 00:27:25,759 you want to do you want to speak to that a little bit? Or 323 00:27:25,759 --> 00:27:29,359 do we not want to give the FBI anymore? Ammo? Things I think 324 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,920 are somewhat better than they were, But as recently as a year ago, 325 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:38,319 the FBI put a very serious amount of pressure on me. They do not 326 00:27:38,599 --> 00:27:45,519 like me being so outspoken, and they have criticized me directly and indirectly. 327 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:51,720 I'd rather they criticized me to my face than slag me behind my back. 328 00:27:51,759 --> 00:27:55,000 But there's been a fair amount of that too. There's been a number of 329 00:27:55,039 --> 00:28:00,680 people that are part of this investigation, including witnesses, other family members, 330 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:07,799 and others who've been told do not talk to Bill Thomas. At the family 331 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:14,799 briefing, they made a great emphatic point, do not share this information with 332 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:21,079 Bill Thomas. I actually said to our case agent fairly recently. Look, 333 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,400 I said, a dozen people have come to me in the last few months 334 00:28:25,799 --> 00:28:29,839 and said to me that they were told do not talk to Bill Thomas. 335 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,799 Now, some of these people didn't even know who the hell I was. 336 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,839 But of course when someone says don't talk to someone, I think a lot 337 00:28:37,839 --> 00:28:42,640 of people then respond, who the heck is this guy, and why can't 338 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:47,640 I talk to him? And then of course they started to do a little 339 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,759 digging themselves. They figured out who I was, they figured out who Kristin 340 00:28:52,839 --> 00:28:56,759 Dilly was. They actually started listening to this podcast, and then the next 341 00:28:56,759 --> 00:29:02,279 thing, my phone is ringing with people. In a number of these examples, 342 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,480 these are people I've never met before, never spoken to them before, 343 00:29:04,519 --> 00:29:11,119 but they have information in this case. Now, obviously we're urging them to 344 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,880 talk to the FBI and the Virginia State Police, particularly if anyone indicates that 345 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:21,559 they have information about Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, or any other aspect of the 346 00:29:21,559 --> 00:29:25,960 Colonial Parkway murders. It doesn't begin and end with Kristen and Bill. We 347 00:29:26,039 --> 00:29:30,920 want them to talk to law enforcement. Some people won't. They don't trust 348 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,559 law enforcement and of course, the FBI and the Virginia State Police have done 349 00:29:34,599 --> 00:29:42,680 themselves no favors by not being transparent and straightforward. Like I said, Alan 350 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:48,039 Wade Wilmer Senior is dead. We're not bringing him up on trial. I 351 00:29:48,039 --> 00:29:52,559 don't know why we're worried about his civil rights and not the rights of at 352 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:57,160 least eight young people and probably a lot more. But I actually said to 353 00:29:59,119 --> 00:30:03,640 our FBI, a this campaign that you're involved in where you keep telling people 354 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:08,240 not to talk to Bill Thomas, it's not working. All you're doing is 355 00:30:08,319 --> 00:30:14,920 making people call me because now they're thinking, WHOA, who's Bill Thomas and 356 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:19,079 why can't I talk to him? And then something that's come out of the 357 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:26,000 podcast live events that we've done in Virginia is people have reached out to us 358 00:30:26,039 --> 00:30:29,759 and said, you two, Kristen and Bill, are the only ones that 359 00:30:29,799 --> 00:30:34,799 are doing your best to answer questions honestly about what's going on with the Colonial 360 00:30:34,839 --> 00:30:38,400 Parkway murders. Now, the FBI and the Virginia State Police and perhaps other 361 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:44,599 agencies might not like that, but you know something, when there's an information 362 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:49,319 void, which is exactly what's been created by misleading press conferences and refusing to 363 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:56,119 answer questions. People still have questions and a ton of questions, and if 364 00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,880 they can't get their questions answered by law enforcement, huge mistake in my opinion, 365 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,960 then they're going to continue seeking information and they end up talking to people 366 00:31:06,079 --> 00:31:11,960 like Kristin Dilly and Bill Thomas exactly next subhead. Wilmer was a suspect thirty 367 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:17,039 six years ago. For one thing, Thomas said, the FBI has not 368 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:22,480 fully acknowledged that agents had Wilmer within their grasp in nineteen eighty eight and let 369 00:31:22,559 --> 00:31:26,359 him slip away. The FBI is not happy that we're highlighting the fact that 370 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,960 Wilmer was suspect number one in the disappearance of Keith Call and Sandra Haley, 371 00:31:32,079 --> 00:31:37,119 he said last week. The FBI's Norfolk Field office declined to say whether it's 372 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:44,720 agents believe Wilmer killed the CNU students. Insert obscene gesture here. Yes, 373 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,000 I was trying to figure out should I comment on that gesture you just made 374 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,440 her now, which I've never seen you do before either. By the way, 375 00:31:52,359 --> 00:31:57,119 I'm sorry my mother would be ashamed of me, as your mother would 376 00:31:57,119 --> 00:32:05,039 not be happy about that. Bill continuing. The Haley Call investigation is still 377 00:32:05,079 --> 00:32:08,559 an active and open investigation, so I am not able to give specifics on 378 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:15,200 that case. FBI spokeswoman Cassandra Temple said, we also wouldn't be able to 379 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:21,240 comment on any discussions we have with the victims' families. So the FBI and 380 00:32:21,359 --> 00:32:27,279 State police declined to say at the January news conference how Wilmer first was developed 381 00:32:27,319 --> 00:32:32,400 as a suspect, and FBI spokeswoman told the Daily Press two days later that 382 00:32:32,559 --> 00:32:40,599 he was initially suspected in the Haley and Call case. That acknowledgment came after 383 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:45,960 Blaine Pardo, who co wrote A Special Kind of Evil, a book about 384 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:52,240 the Colonial Parkway murders, began telling media outlets that Wilmer was squarely on the 385 00:32:52,319 --> 00:32:59,079 FBI's radar in that couple's nineteen eighty eight disappearance, thanks to Blaine and other 386 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:04,599 reporters liked Andy Fox, Peter, do you ask the initial question anyway? 387 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,480 Thank you, Andy? And was turned down twice, right, he asked 388 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:12,599 twice and they refused to answer twice. And I think you and I played 389 00:33:12,599 --> 00:33:16,920 a role here too in raising a bit of a ruckus saying why aren't you 390 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:22,799 saying that Wilmer was a suspect as far back as nineteen eighty eight. I 391 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:28,359 recognize the fact that this is embarrassing to the FBI, but if they won't 392 00:33:28,359 --> 00:33:32,880 deal with these questions in a straightforward manner, they actually just hurt themselves in 393 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:40,359 undercut the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Virginia State Police's credibility. I actually 394 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:45,720 think, and this is coming from someone who has been a media and communications 395 00:33:45,759 --> 00:33:50,079 person, a public relations person, and the legislative affairs for forty years, 396 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,599 they would have been better off just admitting that Wilmer was a suspect as far 397 00:33:54,640 --> 00:34:00,759 back as nineteen eighty eight that he was questioned, his premises were searched, 398 00:34:01,039 --> 00:34:07,800 he was given two polygraphic examinations and ultimately cleared by the FBI. We all 399 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:13,159 understand that DNA hadn't even made it out of the lab back in nineteen eighty 400 00:34:13,159 --> 00:34:19,159 eight, and there were reasons that Wilmer was moved to the less likely list 401 00:34:19,559 --> 00:34:24,239 back in eighty eight. But now that it's twenty twenty four and they've identified 402 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:29,840 Wilmer as a suspect, why not treat the American people with a modicum of 403 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:34,239 respect and just admit, hey, he was on our list. We looked 404 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,559 hard at this guy. But we weren't able to prove it based on the 405 00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:43,400 information and evidence we had in nineteen eighty eight. And as long as it 406 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,280 took me to tell that short story, if that's how long it would have 407 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:51,400 taken the FBI, and yeah, okay, there would have been some squawking, 408 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,639 and I'm sure I would have said something about how unhappy we were. 409 00:34:54,400 --> 00:35:00,360 I think it's a lot better off than them putting out misleading statement, which 410 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:05,119 is really what they are. Refusing to answer the question twice Kristin, as 411 00:35:05,159 --> 00:35:08,599 you pointed out, and then a couple of days later, then you've got 412 00:35:08,679 --> 00:35:15,440 Blaine Pardo, Kristin Dilley, Bill Thomas, Andy Fox, and a number 413 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,519 of other people saying, wait a second, Wilma was a suspect back in 414 00:35:19,599 --> 00:35:22,599 eighty eight. Why are you failing to mention this. If you didn't want 415 00:35:22,639 --> 00:35:27,000 to make a big deal out of it, you shouldn't have tried to hide 416 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,079 it. Then, don't make a big deal about it. Just suck it 417 00:35:30,199 --> 00:35:32,719 up, Just suck it out. Everybody, tell everybody what happened, and 418 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:38,320 we'll all move on accountability and transparency. Pardo told the Daily Press that he 419 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:43,559 spent a day in twenty sixteen interviewing Irvin B. Wells, Third, the 420 00:35:43,599 --> 00:35:46,800 former special Agent in charge of the FBI's Norfolk Field office, about the Parkway 421 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:52,400 killings. Wells, who died in twenty twenty two, told Parto that the 422 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:57,440 FBI developed a profile of the killer as a local fisherman. The profile came 423 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,400 about after the first couple slain in nineteen eighty sive featured a fishing court, 424 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:05,599 a curved sharp knife, and diesel fuel. A few days after Colin Haley 425 00:36:05,599 --> 00:36:08,280 disappeared in nineteen eighty eight, the FBI learned of a fisherman in a pickup 426 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:13,960 truck approaching couples on the Parkway. The FBI began watching him and spotted him 427 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,559 cleaning and spray painting his older truck four days later. Parter said Wells couldn't 428 00:36:17,559 --> 00:36:22,960 remember the fisherman's name during the twenty sixteen interview, but the former special agent 429 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:28,639 recalled the man had a license plate such as edom raw. At the January 430 00:36:28,679 --> 00:36:32,480 news conference, a state police spokeswoman released a picture of Wilmer's license plate E 431 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:37,599 M raw, along with nineteen eighty eight pictures of his faded blue pickup and 432 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:45,119 a fishing boat. As I mentioned, I also interviewed IRV. Wells twice 433 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:50,000 for hours at a time when we were shooting the Lover's Lane television series. 434 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,719 One of the other things that Wells said to me which really resonated, and 435 00:36:54,000 --> 00:37:00,280 Blaine Pardo remembered this as well, which is that the Colonial Parkway murders were 436 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:07,639 the single greatest professional regret that IRV. Wells had in his very esteemed probably 437 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:14,679 forty year FBI career. The failure to solve this case was the thing that 438 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:21,880 bothered him the most. Next SUBHEB. Wilmer was cleared after polygraph. Pardos 439 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,679 said, Wells told him in twenty sixteen that the FBI administered a line detector 440 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:30,800 test on the Fisherman in nineteen eighty eight. He passed. Shocking Wells, 441 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,920 I know this guy did it, the special agent told his underlings at the 442 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,199 time, according to Pardo's account, you guys better be exploitive, right. 443 00:37:40,119 --> 00:37:45,039 But after the polygraph, Pardos said, the FBI literally let him go. 444 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:49,719 And this is a story that I heard, just so we're clear on this 445 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,320 in nineteen eighty eight. So I heard this in real time from my father, 446 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,639 Joe Thomas, who passed on a few years ago, and he was 447 00:37:58,679 --> 00:38:06,280 in touch with mister Wells and the case agents regularly during this timeframe, and 448 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:12,400 he my dad filled me in frequently on his conversations with them, and he 449 00:38:12,639 --> 00:38:17,639 told me the driveway story back in nineteen eighty eight. Flashed forward all those 450 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:23,840 years in the twenty sixteen or so timeframe. When I met with Wells and 451 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,880 he told me the driveway story, I wanted to hear the whole thing, 452 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,239 from top to bottom. But as soon as he started telling me the story, 453 00:38:30,599 --> 00:38:37,760 I remembered that my dad had spoken to the case agents about their great 454 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:43,239 disappointment and how they were absolutely certain they had the right guy. And it 455 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:49,599 appears that IRV Wells told Blame Pardo the same thing. The Colonial Parkway is 456 00:38:49,599 --> 00:38:53,599 a secluded twenty two mile US roadway that runs between Jamestown and Yorktown by way 457 00:38:53,599 --> 00:38:59,159 of Williamsburg. The Colonial Parkway murders, as they're widely known, include eight 458 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,360 homicides over three years. Two couples are believed to have been killed on the 459 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:07,400 parkway itself, in wooded sections of the roadway in York County, but in 460 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,239 the public's mind, the cases have also long included the killings of Nobling and 461 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:15,840 Edwards in Islivewight and another couple slain off Route sixty four in New Kent County. 462 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:21,480 The FBI said the entire case is still an active one. We're thankful 463 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,039 to everyone who has written or called into the tip line since the last announcement 464 00:39:24,159 --> 00:39:29,719 naming Alan Wade Wilmer Senior as a suspect in January. Temple said, we 465 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:34,079 are continuing to encourage the public to call into the FBI's tip line one eight 466 00:39:34,199 --> 00:39:38,599 hundred, call FBI or tips dot FBI dot gov. No tip is too 467 00:39:38,679 --> 00:39:45,639 small and can be crucial in aiding this investigation. Virginia State Police spokeswoman Kuran 468 00:39:45,679 --> 00:39:49,440 Geller asked that anyone who may have spent time with Wilmer, including hunting, 469 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,559 farming oysters and clams with him, or docking next to him at Ariam Marinas, 470 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:58,079 to call the FBI or to email the State Police at Questions at vsp 471 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:04,360 dot Virginia dot gov, and we would reiterate we completely support this and if 472 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:09,519 you have any information about Alan Wade Wilmer or any aspect of the Colonial Parkway 473 00:40:09,599 --> 00:40:15,159 murders, please contact the FBI or the Virginia State Police. They really do 474 00:40:15,199 --> 00:40:21,800 want to hear from you and as Coren Geller says, no piece of information 475 00:40:22,599 --> 00:40:27,880 is too small. Something that you might not think is significant could be a 476 00:40:28,079 --> 00:40:32,719 key to helping advance this case. Really important that our listeners and anyone who 477 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:39,480 hears this report understands that we absolutely want people to contact law enforcement with any 478 00:40:39,519 --> 00:40:45,039 information they might have. Yeah, even though we are sitting here leveling criticisms 479 00:40:45,079 --> 00:40:49,119 at the FBI and the VSP for the way that they have handled this, 480 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:53,840 that does not mean that we want you to not give tips to them. 481 00:40:54,199 --> 00:40:59,480 They are the best investigative bodies to deal with this. We are not investigators. 482 00:40:59,519 --> 00:41:01,440 We keep saying in it. We need to reiterate it. Bill and 483 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:06,360 I are not equipped to investigate this stuff. We're just not. For anybody 484 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,519 who has reached out to us with tips, we really appreciate it, but 485 00:41:09,599 --> 00:41:14,159 please don't just take it to us. Take it to the FBI, and 486 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,760 take it to the VSP. They're the only people who are equipped to deal 487 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:23,159 with this stuff. We are not. We are podcasters. Final subhead closure 488 00:41:23,199 --> 00:41:28,679 would be nice. Terry Haley Holman said that while she's not sure whether Wilmer 489 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,719 killed Sandra, who would now be fifty five, it also wouldn't surprise her. 490 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,239 He did it to other people, so it's very possible, she said. 491 00:41:36,559 --> 00:41:38,480 I just find it hard to believe that he could do it by himself, 492 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:44,679 and I just like some concrete information closure in her own and other family 493 00:41:44,679 --> 00:41:49,480 members' lifetimes would be nice, she said. Thomas said he doesn't know whether 494 00:41:49,519 --> 00:41:52,920 Wilmer killed his twenty seven year old sister, Kathy, who was found dead 495 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,400 with her girlfriend, twenty one year old Becky Dalski on the Colonial Parkway in 496 00:41:55,480 --> 00:42:00,400 nineteen eighty six. I believe that Alan Weide Wilmer will be link to other 497 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:05,159 unsolved homicides, Thomas said, I am rock solid certain about that. I 498 00:42:05,199 --> 00:42:07,239 can't say for certain that he killed Kathy and Becky. I think it's too 499 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:14,159 early to say. And this is why we were so emphatic several months ago 500 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:19,920 about the need to put Alan Wade Wilmer Senior's DNA into COTIS. And we 501 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:25,559 feel very strongly that the Commonwealth of Virginia needs to change its rules. This 502 00:42:25,639 --> 00:42:31,400 man is a confirmed serial killer by FBI standards. He killed three people in 503 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:37,880 two separate incidents, which qualifies him for serial killer status. He's dead, 504 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:44,679 he's not going to trial anytime soon, and putting his DNA into COTIS could 505 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:49,519 benefit the FBI, the Virginia State Police, and who knows how many other 506 00:42:50,039 --> 00:42:55,239 law enforcement agencies and families who are looking for answers. Again, we will 507 00:42:55,280 --> 00:43:00,960 continue to be harping on this. We need to put Wilmer DNA into the 508 00:43:00,039 --> 00:43:06,639 CODA system. Absolutely. The mind of our Murder podcast, which deals into 509 00:43:06,679 --> 00:43:09,920 the Colonial Parkway cases and other true crimes, posts a new episode every Monday. 510 00:43:10,559 --> 00:43:15,199 I'm looking for answers, Thomas said of his focus on his sister's case. 511 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,760 Thirty eight years on. I've talked to so many people in law enforcement 512 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:22,400 that have worked this case. They've told me over and over again that this 513 00:43:22,559 --> 00:43:25,480 is a solvable case. It just takes time, attention, and resources. 514 00:43:27,039 --> 00:43:32,079 And the FBI wasn't putting in the time, attention and resources until the family 515 00:43:32,199 --> 00:43:37,920 started ratcheting up the pressure. And that brings us to the end of our 516 00:43:37,039 --> 00:43:40,440 article. That's a nice mic drop there, mister Thomas. What do you 517 00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:45,199 say? I think it's the truth. Other people may disagree with me, 518 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:49,239 and they're welcome to. As a matter of fact, if someone wants to 519 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,320 tell us where we think we're wrong, please reach out to us for our 520 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:58,679 social media pages, the Colonial Parkway Murders page on Facebook, the mind Over 521 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,840 Murder page on Facebook, and of course we also have Twitter now called x 522 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:08,760 For reasons I still don't completely understand. We would love to hear from people 523 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:14,960 what their theories are, what they think, particularly people that have what they 524 00:44:15,199 --> 00:44:19,599 hope will be new information which they'd like to provide to law enforcement. We 525 00:44:19,599 --> 00:44:23,760 welcome a discussion about this. It's not like Kristen and Bill are saying we're 526 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:29,719 right and everybody else is wrong. Far from it. And we do support 527 00:44:30,559 --> 00:44:36,440 further investigation into this case because we think that as law enforcement continues to work 528 00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,760 this case, I think they're going to solve more of the Colonial Parkway murders, 529 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:44,719 and as we saw with Teresa Howell, I think we're going to identify 530 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:50,039 other victims and those families are waiting for answers too, and it's something I 531 00:44:50,079 --> 00:44:55,679 think is very important that understand. We just saw new figures that we are 532 00:44:55,719 --> 00:45:01,360 now looking at probably three hundred and fifty thousand and cold case homicides. We 533 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:06,519 were using a number of two hundred and fifty thousand. Now the number we're 534 00:45:06,519 --> 00:45:10,440 seeing from good strong sources is we're probably talking about three hundred and fifty thousand 535 00:45:10,519 --> 00:45:16,000 cold case homicides. Remember that means that there are literally millions of people going 536 00:45:16,039 --> 00:45:22,159 to bed every night for the rest of their lives waiting for answers in terms 537 00:45:22,199 --> 00:45:27,159 of who killed their loved ones. And I think those families deserve answers. 538 00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:34,199 Well said, now, shifting gears just for one second to return to the 539 00:45:34,639 --> 00:45:39,039 news and the Shenandoah case again. You want to talk about families that have 540 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:44,920 waited a very long time for answers. The Williams and the Winans family have 541 00:45:45,079 --> 00:45:51,239 finally received information that will help them gain that. Again, we hate using 542 00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,960 that word closure, guys, because there really is no such thing. If 543 00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,079 you don't want to take it for me, you can take it from Bill 544 00:45:58,559 --> 00:46:00,480 and any of the other family members. There is no such thing as closure 545 00:46:00,599 --> 00:46:05,480 in this case. But at least now the Williams and the Winans family have 546 00:46:05,679 --> 00:46:08,599 answers. In some cases, it is too little, too late. I 547 00:46:08,639 --> 00:46:14,360 know the parents in one of these cases have passed on already. Bill, 548 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,239 remind me which one that is. Yeah, years ago I had talked to 549 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:24,320 both fathers, Mister and Missus Winans had both passed on. In more recent 550 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:31,440 years, I saw some very eloquent quotes from Tom Williams, who is Julie's 551 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:37,159 father. But the reason we saw no quotes from the Winans family is because 552 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:39,840 both the mother and the father are gone. Now I think there are other 553 00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:45,480 family members, siblings and other folks. It just saddens me that even in 554 00:46:45,519 --> 00:46:51,079 the years I've been involved in these cases, I had reached out to the 555 00:46:51,079 --> 00:46:57,119 Williams and Winans families to share information and talk to them and get their perspectives. 556 00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:04,159 And can picture Tom Williamham's voice in my head in reading the quotes in 557 00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:07,880 the media coverage, and I'm pleased for them that they finally have some of 558 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:13,599 the answers that they were looking for. It saddens me that mister and missus 559 00:47:13,639 --> 00:47:17,719 Winans are gone, and like so many of the parents in the Colonial Parkway 560 00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:23,119 murders, they went to their graves without answers, and that part, I 561 00:47:23,119 --> 00:47:30,639 think is the worst part of this whole thing. Absolutely, absolutely, We're 562 00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:34,320 far enough into this episode at this point that it doesn't even feel worth it 563 00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:37,360 to say that we're burying the lead on this because we are right here at 564 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:39,800 the end. But I do think it's really important just to emphasize, for 565 00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:44,639 everybody, in case you missed it in the two episodes that we did with 566 00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:51,400 Kate, it is really important to remind everybody at the press conference about the 567 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:55,559 Shenandoah case. The FBI did go out of their way to say the murders 568 00:47:55,559 --> 00:48:00,760 of Julie Williams and Lolly Winans were not in any way connect to those of 569 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:06,639 Kathy Thomas and Becky Dowski. So I just want to ask Bill number one. 570 00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:08,360 We've reiterated it, but number two, how did you feel when you 571 00:48:08,599 --> 00:48:14,559 heard that there have been so many similarities between Julian and Lawley's case of Kathy 572 00:48:14,559 --> 00:48:17,360 and Becky's. Were you hoping that there was going to be a connection or 573 00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:21,239 are you relieved that there isn't one? What are your thoughts on that? 574 00:48:21,639 --> 00:48:24,119 Based on what I knew, I was fairly certain that there wasn't going to 575 00:48:24,159 --> 00:48:29,360 be a connection, and back in ninety six, the FBI did say publicly 576 00:48:29,519 --> 00:48:34,880 that they were looking at substantial similarities. That was the expression they used between 577 00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:40,159 the murder of Kathy Thomas and Rebeccadowski and Julie Williams and Lolly Winans. To 578 00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:45,719 my knowledge, they'd never found that connection, but I thought it made perfect 579 00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:51,320 sense that they were looking at those two sets of double homicides because there were 580 00:48:51,519 --> 00:48:57,199 so many similarities. I'm still just looking for answers now in Kathy and Becky 581 00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:01,679 and the other Colonial Parkway murders cases, and I think so many other cases 582 00:49:02,079 --> 00:49:07,480 may be provided answers as a result of this investigation. So all I can 583 00:49:07,559 --> 00:49:12,760 do is urge the FBI in the Virginia State Police keep working these cases. 584 00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:16,800 I think there are more answers in the offing, and there are a lot 585 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:22,280 of other issues that we could get into regarding how the FBI has covered press 586 00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,480 conferences in both of these cases, but it looks like we are going to 587 00:49:24,559 --> 00:49:29,360 have to save that for another episode. That is going to do it for 588 00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:32,760 this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll 589 00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:46,960 see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 590 00:49:47,039 --> 00:49:52,880 Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our 591 00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:59,599 logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. 592 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:05,679 Is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, 593 00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,599 Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial 594 00:50:08,599 --> 00:50:14,440 Parkway murders on Facebook. And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter 595 00:50:14,519 --> 00:50:19,920 at Bill Thomas. Five six. Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder.