You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas.
I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now
trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other
victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway
murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,
a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media
manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in
crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and
I'm Bill Thomas. Welcome to another exciting, fun filled episode of our true
crime podcast, and thank you all so much for listening. We hope you've
enjoyed our last couple of episodes. So what we've been talking about in the
last couple of episodes, Kristin Dilly, we had a really wonderful conversation with
Kate Miles, author of Trails who came in to talk to us about the
recent developments and the Julie Williams and Lollywinan's murders, as well as her criticisms
rightfully of some of the ways that the FBI was handling this information. We
shared some of her criticisms, and so I feel like it was a very
good, interesting and insightful conversation, and we hope that all of you feel
that way as well. We just ran two brand new episodes last Monday and
last Thursday, featuring Kate. I think we had a lot of really good
information to put out there, and so we hope that all of you enjoyed
it too. We know it was a much anticipated episode. We had mentioned
that Kate was going to come on the pod and people were very excited.
We hope that we did you proud with those episodes. Bill, What did
you think about our conversations with Kate? I thought it was terrific in terms
of a conversation. I learned a lot, and Kate's insights into the Julie
Williams Lollywine case and the investigation of that case I thought were extremely interesting.
I saw all the enthusiastic questions that we received on social media from our listeners,
and I know you tried to integrate as many of those questions as you
could into the conversation. One thing Kate mentioned that I'm also hearing from other
sources now is that a lot of people in the media, and I would
actually put Catherine Miles in the media category trailed is probably the definitive version of
what happened, at least publicly in the Julie Williams Solly Winens murder. And
she expressed a great deal of frustration with the FBI's ongoing refusal to answer questions
about how they did this amazing work in solving the Shenandoah murders and identifying Walter
Leo Jackson, Sr. As the case killer of Julie Williams and Lawley Winans.
I just want to mention I'll leave names out of it, but I'm
hearing from a number of other media sources that they have been asking the FBI
and the US Attorney's Office the exact same type of questions that Kate was asking
the FBI recently, and they're getting the straight arm, just a complete refusal.
The US Attorney is saying, ask the FBI, and then the FBI
is saying we won't answer those questions. I think their behavior is outrageous.
I really do. I agree, and there are some similarities to the way
that the FBI is handling this information about Shenandoah and the way that they handled
the information in our case back in January. What we'd like to do for
this episode is we would like to first of all, share a story that
ran in the Virginia Pilots about our case a couple of weeks back. We
were initially going to get to it before the news on Shenandoah broke, but
then Shenandoah needed to come first, understandably, So we're going to share that
article, and then we're going to go ahead and have a sort of compare
a contrast session, if you will, about the things that we see the
FBI having done in our case that they are continuing to do in Shenandoah.
And I think that will be illuminating for everybody to see what the FBI's standard
practice is when it comes to providing or not providing information that they don't want
people to know. This article actually ran in two newspapers. It ran in
the Virginian Pilot and in the Daily Press. Peter Dujardin is the reporter.
We're going to steer you towards the Virginian because that one is not behind a
paywall. It's essentially the same article, same photographs. It's very well written
in rec searched. When we talk about the article, we're mostly going to
be referencing the edition that appeared in Virginian because it's not behind a paywall.
This article has actually been in the works for a while. When Bill was
here in Virginia with me on May thirteenth for our live event, this reporter,
Peter Giujardin, showed up at our event and had a chance to talk
with Bill a little more in depth. So this has been in the works
for quite a while, and it is quite an excellent, thorough, in
depth articles. Because we know that there are people from other countries who cannot
necessarily see this information, we wanted to go ahead and have an episode where
we shared it out with you and then we unpack the contents here. So
I'll go ahead and start and then Bill will fly in with color commentary as
needed. So this is from the Virginian Pilot. FBI suspects Northern neckman in
second Colonial Parkway murder case Families Told by Peter Dujardin, published June sixteenth,
twenty twenty four. A deceased Lancaster County waterman, Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior,
was implicated earlier this year in one of the Colonial Parkway murders. The
State Police announced in January that Wilmer's DNA matched genetic material found in the slains
thirty seven years ago of David Nobling twenty and Robin Edwards fourteen. On September
twenty first, nineteen eighty seven, Nobling's pickup was found unattended in a small
parking lot near the James River Bridge in Isle of Wight County. The driver's
store flung open, the radio plane and his wallet on the dashboard. Two
days later, the two bodies washed ashore at a nature preserve two miles downriver.
Both had been shot the team Robin Edwards had been sexually assaulted. A
couple of things. First of all, we're not here to pick apart Peter
Dujardin's article. We actually think it's three days later, depending on how you
look at it. It was not public information, although we knew about it
for decades that Robin Edward had been sexually assaulted. We knew that Robin had
been sexually assaulted. We knew that there was DNA available as a result of
that sexual assault, and we knew for a number of years, but never
stated publicly that they had tested the DNA several times unsuccessfully. Remember this case
dates all the way back to eighty seven. Forensics are not what they are
now in twenty twenty four, and one of our concerns was that with the
repeated testing of the evidence in Robin's body, we were concerned that we might
run out of DNA. Fortunately, that did not pan out, but that
was something that was very much bubbling under for a number of years, especially
in the last year since we learned that the Virginia State Police were going back
and retesting the evidence in the Robin Edwards David Knobling murder. Also at the
January news conference, Hampton Police said they had connected Wilmer to the nineteen eighty
nine slaye of twenty nine year old Teresa Lynn Howell, a case not previously
tied to the Parkway cases. The York County woman left a nightclub on East
Mercury Boulevard that July and was found dead at a Hampton construction site the next
morning she had been raped and strangled. And just as a reminder, we
were not familiar with Teresa Lynn Howell's name or her case by the time this
January press conference rolled around. This is brand new information to us. We
have since talked to her family quite a bit more in our learning more about
her. At the point that all of this came up in January, we
did not have any knowledge of Terry Howell or her case at that point.
The Wilmer died of natural causes in twenty seventeen at a sixty three. Investigators
were able to link the Northern neckman to the cold cases by DNA. The
state police and Hampton Police said he would have been charged with murder if he
were still alive. Now the FBI has told two more families that Wilmer is
the primary suspect in another Colonial Parkway case, a presumed double slain that Wilmer
was suspected of some thirty six years ago. And by that, of course,
we're referring to the case of Keith Call and Cassandra Hanley. And this
was one of the things we were extremely unhappy about. We knew months before
the January press conference that this news was coming from our other media sources.
So we were told months before this would have been in October twenty twenty three,
from these media sources that a suspect had been identified in the disappearance of
Keith Colin, Cassandra Haley, and in them specifically in the murder of Robin
Edwards and David Nobling. And then this was the first time we heard this
name, Teresa Lynn Howell, as Kristen says, a victim we were not
familiar with at that time. What was disturbing then is as the press conference
unfolds and somehow the Keith call Cassandra Hailey information is not forthcoming. They don't
even mention it, and that part created a significant amount of frustration for us.
The FBI cleared Wilmer in the nineteen eighty eight case after he passed a
lie detector test, according to an author who in twenty sixteen interviewed the region's
former FBI former Special Agent in charge who oversaw the investigation. That author,
of course, is Blain Pardo, who we were very happy to have as
our special guest at our May thirteenth live event at the York County Library and
the former special Agent in charge at the FBI Newport, News and Norfolk offices
is the late IRV Wells, who died a couple of years ago. And
in addition to talking to Blaine Pardo about this, I spoke with IRV Wells
myself on two separate occasions for a number of hours, and he went back
and reiterated what Kristin and I often called privately the Driveway story, because it
involved two FBI agents going up to Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior's family's home in
Lancaster, Virginia. And we'll get into more details on that in a couple
of minutes, but Wilmer is now back atop the suspect list. Victims' families
have recently been told in that case, two Christopher Newport University students, Keith
call twenty of Gloucester and Sandra Haley, eighteen of York County, left a
party near Cingu about two am on April tenth, nineteen eighty eight, on
their first date. About six hours later, a ranger on the Colonial Parkway
found Calls nineteen eighty two Toyota selica holdover on a scenic overlook of the York
River near indian Field Creek. The driver's store was open and Call's car keys
were on the front seat, The Daily Press reported at the time. Investigators
also found beer cans, Haley's purse, Call's wallet, and the couple's clothes.
Press accounts said search as of the water found no trace of the couple.
They were never seen again. When we talk about DNA evidence and items
from Keith and Sandy's car. By the way, when you see a list
like this from Peter Dujardin, this gives you a pretty good idea of the
kind of things that were tested back in the eighties, had been retested and
now are going back in some cases for a third or even fourth test with
advanced forensics improving every single year. These items have been tested and even retested
looking for more information about can we place an offender at the point where Keith
and Sandy go missing? And the last place we know about is Keith calls
Toyota Celica. There's a subhead titled what did FBI say at meeting? About
a month ago? Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley, who run the Mind over
Murder podcast, delivered news during a recording before a packed house at the Yorktown
Library. Thomas said the FBI told the Call and Haley families that federal agents
are nearly certain Wilmer killed them. Thomas of Connecticut is an older brother to
Kathy Thomas, a Naval Academy graduate who was killed in the first Colonial Parkway
slave in nineteen eighty six. A retired executive in the entertainment industry, Thomas
now spends plenty of hours these days on the parkway cases. I laughed out
loud when I read this, because I don't think of myself as very retired.
Yeah, you've never described yourself that way either. No, I usually
resist that word, but it is what it is. One of the reasons,
and this won't surprise anybody. I don't know how often I've said this
out loud. One of the reasons why we moved back to the East Coast
from Los Angeles was I was intending to spend more time helping to move forward
the Colonial Parkway murders, with your help, of course, and the help
of many other people. And then we worked like dogs on this old house
we're fixing up here in Connecticut. And right around the time we were done
with the first phase, which is redoing the interior of this big old house.
We are emerging from our borough picture. I don't know, a meerkat
or a rabbit stick his head out of the whole. Prairie dog. I
like prairie dogs, Parry dog. And then this thing came along which my
older brother who's a doctor, an epidemiologist actually, Richard studies disease outbreaks.
He told us there was this thing coming from China and we were like what.
And so then the next thing, you know, for what the next
three years or so, we're all hunkered down with this thing called COVID.
So that really slowed us down in terms of travel and the ability to get
to Virginia, and a lot of stuff that was really important to us wasn't
happening. And even when you and I first created Mind Over Murder, our
intention was that we were going to do a fair amount of episodes face to
face with COVID and all. We ended up doing some workarounds that I think
have worked pretty well. That mostly involved Kristen and Virginia Bill in Connecticut.
It's actually exciting when we're in the same row. Yeah, it was very
interesting because right from the jump you and I had recorded a couple episodes.
What was it. It was in December of twenty nineteen, with a drop
date of January twenty twenty. And then right around the time that we dropped,
we were hearing about this crazy pandemic called COVID. But also at the
same time, my school had caught on fire and we were having all sorts
of issues with that, and then we got shut down entirely for the pandemic,
and there was all sorts of absolutely bananas things going on in our life.
So I would say, really, this is the first year what we've
been able to consistently see each other and work together. But even still,
when you're down here, it's not like we're sitting down at my kitchen table
doing podcasts. No, it's mainly you and I running around and seeing people.
Yeah, we did sit down briefly at your kitchen table recently when I
was down there doing one of our Life Live podcast events, which Peter de
Jardin references in the article. We still haven't recorded a face to face episode
since the very beginning of Mind Over Murder. No, we did one when
I came up to visit you with Mark, Yes, and we did one
in your office, but I think that was that's the last's really the only
time we were on opposite sides of the table as opposed to communicating electronically.
Yeah, and of course it was wonderful to do the live sessions here,
but that is still very different doing a live podcast in front of a live
audience than it is just doing what we do. The FBI, including its
lead Colonial Parkway investigators, sat down with the Colin Haley families two days before
the January eighth news conference. Thomas said in the podcast recording on May thirteenth,
quote, they said they were ninety nine percent sure that Alan Wade Wilmer
was responsible for the disappearance and likely homicide of so Keith Call and Cassandra Haley.
Thomas said, they said that privately to the families. This is one
of the areas of great frustration. As you'll see as the article unfolds,
The families have been told things privately by the FBI and the Virginia State Police,
and then the discomfort kicks in and even anger at times. And I
don't just mean me here, other family members they're very uncomfortable with being told
something privately by the FBI. But then the FBI and the Virginia State Police
won't confirm those things in a public way. And this is really compounding the
unhappiness for the families, because, as we've talked about before, it's not
like Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior is going to be brought into a courtroom and
charged with rape and murder in the Colonial Parkway murders and perhaps kidnapping and other
charges. The man's been dead since what twy seven. We don't understand all
of this secrecy, but I'll let you continue with the article. When the
State Police and FBI held the joint news conference two days later, nobody mentioned
the nineteen eighty eight case. One of Sandy Haley's two older sisters, Terry
Haley Holman, disputed Thomas's assertions, saying the case agent and the FBI did
not speak so definitively at the January meeting. All they wanted us to know
was that Wilmer was connected to the Isle of Wight and Hampton cases and possibly
to ours. Is all they would say, said Hailey Holman, sixty three,
of Northern Virginia. But nobody ever said ninety nine percent. They never
even said in the nineties, They never gave a percentage. I'm not looking
to get into a pissing contest with Terry Hailey Holman, who's someone I hold
in very high regard and we've worked very closely together over the years. I
think my mistake is I think I'm blending conversations that took place with different family
members. Clearly Terry did not hear the FBI say ninety nine percent, other
family members did. Because I think everybody knows me well enough to know I'm
not making this up. I said ninety nine percent because the FBI said ninety
nine percent. Clearly Terry didn't hear that, and perhaps it wasn't said to
her. So in that regard, I owe Terry an apology. I don't
mean to make it sound like she was told something that she was not.
Haley Holman said. The FBI agent did relate that eyewitnesses put Wilmer on the
Colonial Parkway in the vicinity of where Call's car was found, and that Wilmer
put himself there that night when the FBI interrogated him in nineteen eighty eight,
and we're pretty sure that is related to this habit. We have learned that
he had of stalking couples on the Colonial Parkway, walking up to the windows
of cars, banging on them, asking for driver's licenses, not registration,
just driver's licenses, and that sort of behavior. So when it says Wilmer
put himself there, I assume, and again this is just an assumption,
but Bill, you can jump right in there with me if you think so.
I assume that is him basically copying to Yeah, I was on the
parkway doing that thing. I do. I assume that's what that was.
Also, we've heard a version of the story of the disappearance of Keith Colin
Cassandra Haley, where different people reported that this man driving this very distinctive truck,
this nineteen sixty six Dodge Dakota pickup truck, blue green in color,
with writing on the doors, and with this very distinctive rig on the back
used by Waterman, and that he was cruising one of these half moon pull
offs after another that particular night. He may or may not have been harassing
couples. No one's said they were harassed that evening. Supposedly, his cover
story was that he was looking for a woman he'd met in an X rated
theater. I know this sounds absurd, that's what he claimed, but he
did, as Terry's pointing out, put himself on the Colonial Parkway the night
that Keith and Sandy went missing. Continuing with Terry's quote, if that's ninety
nine percent, I beg to differ because it's really not Sid Haley Holman,
who worked for about five years as a New Britany's police officer, because he
frequented that place a lot. So until I have DNA or something a little
more concrete, I'm not signing off on it. Let me add Terry's right,
as I said, if I owe her an apology, I don't mean
to put words in her mouth regarding the ninety nine percent. So I think
that's where we're getting a little bit of the pushback from Terry. And she's
completely entitled to say what she says. And remember she was in the room
when much of this was discussed. I was not. But let's also remember
other family members were also in the room and had follow up conversations with the
FBI, and that's where the ninety nine percent comment originates from. You're listening
to Mindover Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors.
We're back here at Mindover Murder. Before we get back to the podcast,
just wanted to remind you that we have a go fundme effort going on right
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Murder, and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward. We'd love
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from five dollars to whatever you can afford is very much appreciated and will be
incredibly helpful. The link is in the show notes and in our social media
pages. As always, thanks for your support. Now back to Mind Over
Murder. Because Colin Haley's bodies are still missing, DNA testing has been hampered.
A diverse search of a section of the York River in February failed to
turn up any new leads. Keith calls Toyota was returned to the family and
sold off decades ago, but sources said the FBI still has some evidence from
the crime scene that is being retested with more advanced techniques. There's stuff at
the lab, but I have no idea what Haley Holman said. They don't
go into specifics Our sources, by the way, have pointed out to us
they now believe that the FBI, Virginia State Police, and a number of
other agencies have actually conducted three separate water searches since January in specific locations.
I find the whole thing a bit baffling. I'm not criticizing, and we're
outside the investigation, so I can't tell you anything that we know about these
water searches. I'm straining a little bit to figure out what the FBI,
Virginia State Police, and other agencies and their dive teams working together. One
witness who spoke to us a couple of weeks ago said there were as many
as a dozen different vehicles at these sites. I strain a little bit because
I'm trying to figure out what would they find thirty six years later in these
bodies of water, Particularly when we know that Wilmer had access to a boat
that Denny Wade, and he used that boat frequently. We think there's a
very strong possibility he may have taken bodies out and disposed of them in deeper
water. So these searches, which are actually fairly close to the Colonial Parkway,
I don't know. I suppose there could be bones or something made of
metal, like a knife or a gun or other weapon ye may have been
tossed in the water. I think this is a real long shot. I
admire law enforcement for trying everything they can think of, and perhaps they have
new information regarding places they should be looking at for potential evidence disposal sites.
It seems like a long shot, but other long shots have panned out,
so I appreciate the fact that they're trying. Call's sister, Joyce Call of
Canada, said she doesn't remember the FBI agent giving a percentage certainty in Wilmer's
culpability in her brothers in Haley's disappearance, they said he's a strong suspect,
said Call of Canada, sixty two of Gloucester, that he was seen all
around that area where the car was dropped off. Thomas, however, stands
by what he said in the May podcast, which he said was based on
conversations with someone in the room. I know what I know, and I
know what people told me, he said Friday. You need to know the
FBI is putting a tremendous amount of pressure on a lot of different people,
myself included. They don't like what we're saying, even though it's the truth.
I feel like I should just heav you read your own quotes out loud.
Here, I am doing my best Bill Thomas impression when like there you
are right there now, You're doing a good job of playing Bill TAAs ahead.
Do you want to speak to that though about the fact that, because
it is a very interesting quote there, Bill, the FBI is putting a
tremendous amount of pressure on a lot of different people, myself included. Do
you want to do you want to speak to that a little bit? Or
do we not want to give the FBI anymore? Ammo? Things I think
are somewhat better than they were, But as recently as a year ago,
the FBI put a very serious amount of pressure on me. They do not
like me being so outspoken, and they have criticized me directly and indirectly.
I'd rather they criticized me to my face than slag me behind my back.
But there's been a fair amount of that too. There's been a number of
people that are part of this investigation, including witnesses, other family members,
and others who've been told do not talk to Bill Thomas. At the family
briefing, they made a great emphatic point, do not share this information with
Bill Thomas. I actually said to our case agent fairly recently. Look,
I said, a dozen people have come to me in the last few months
and said to me that they were told do not talk to Bill Thomas.
Now, some of these people didn't even know who the hell I was.
But of course when someone says don't talk to someone, I think a lot
of people then respond, who the heck is this guy, and why can't
I talk to him? And then of course they started to do a little
digging themselves. They figured out who I was, they figured out who Kristin
Dilly was. They actually started listening to this podcast, and then the next
thing, my phone is ringing with people. In a number of these examples,
these are people I've never met before, never spoken to them before,
but they have information in this case. Now, obviously we're urging them to
talk to the FBI and the Virginia State Police, particularly if anyone indicates that
they have information about Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, or any other aspect of the
Colonial Parkway murders. It doesn't begin and end with Kristen and Bill. We
want them to talk to law enforcement. Some people won't. They don't trust
law enforcement and of course, the FBI and the Virginia State Police have done
themselves no favors by not being transparent and straightforward. Like I said, Alan
Wade Wilmer Senior is dead. We're not bringing him up on trial. I
don't know why we're worried about his civil rights and not the rights of at
least eight young people and probably a lot more. But I actually said to
our FBI, a this campaign that you're involved in where you keep telling people
not to talk to Bill Thomas, it's not working. All you're doing is
making people call me because now they're thinking, WHOA, who's Bill Thomas and
why can't I talk to him? And then something that's come out of the
podcast live events that we've done in Virginia is people have reached out to us
and said, you two, Kristen and Bill, are the only ones that
are doing your best to answer questions honestly about what's going on with the Colonial
Parkway murders. Now, the FBI and the Virginia State Police and perhaps other
agencies might not like that, but you know something, when there's an information
void, which is exactly what's been created by misleading press conferences and refusing to
answer questions. People still have questions and a ton of questions, and if
they can't get their questions answered by law enforcement, huge mistake in my opinion,
then they're going to continue seeking information and they end up talking to people
like Kristin Dilly and Bill Thomas exactly next subhead. Wilmer was a suspect thirty
six years ago. For one thing, Thomas said, the FBI has not
fully acknowledged that agents had Wilmer within their grasp in nineteen eighty eight and let
him slip away. The FBI is not happy that we're highlighting the fact that
Wilmer was suspect number one in the disappearance of Keith Call and Sandra Haley,
he said last week. The FBI's Norfolk Field office declined to say whether it's
agents believe Wilmer killed the CNU students. Insert obscene gesture here. Yes,
I was trying to figure out should I comment on that gesture you just made
her now, which I've never seen you do before either. By the way,
I'm sorry my mother would be ashamed of me, as your mother would
not be happy about that. Bill continuing. The Haley Call investigation is still
an active and open investigation, so I am not able to give specifics on
that case. FBI spokeswoman Cassandra Temple said, we also wouldn't be able to
comment on any discussions we have with the victims' families. So the FBI and
State police declined to say at the January news conference how Wilmer first was developed
as a suspect, and FBI spokeswoman told the Daily Press two days later that
he was initially suspected in the Haley and Call case. That acknowledgment came after
Blaine Pardo, who co wrote A Special Kind of Evil, a book about
the Colonial Parkway murders, began telling media outlets that Wilmer was squarely on the
FBI's radar in that couple's nineteen eighty eight disappearance, thanks to Blaine and other
reporters liked Andy Fox, Peter, do you ask the initial question anyway?
Thank you, Andy? And was turned down twice, right, he asked
twice and they refused to answer twice. And I think you and I played
a role here too in raising a bit of a ruckus saying why aren't you
saying that Wilmer was a suspect as far back as nineteen eighty eight. I
recognize the fact that this is embarrassing to the FBI, but if they won't
deal with these questions in a straightforward manner, they actually just hurt themselves in
undercut the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Virginia State Police's credibility. I actually
think, and this is coming from someone who has been a media and communications
person, a public relations person, and the legislative affairs for forty years,
they would have been better off just admitting that Wilmer was a suspect as far
back as nineteen eighty eight that he was questioned, his premises were searched,
he was given two polygraphic examinations and ultimately cleared by the FBI. We all
understand that DNA hadn't even made it out of the lab back in nineteen eighty
eight, and there were reasons that Wilmer was moved to the less likely list
back in eighty eight. But now that it's twenty twenty four and they've identified
Wilmer as a suspect, why not treat the American people with a modicum of
respect and just admit, hey, he was on our list. We looked
hard at this guy. But we weren't able to prove it based on the
information and evidence we had in nineteen eighty eight. And as long as it
took me to tell that short story, if that's how long it would have
taken the FBI, and yeah, okay, there would have been some squawking,
and I'm sure I would have said something about how unhappy we were.
I think it's a lot better off than them putting out misleading statement, which
is really what they are. Refusing to answer the question twice Kristin, as
you pointed out, and then a couple of days later, then you've got
Blaine Pardo, Kristin Dilley, Bill Thomas, Andy Fox, and a number
of other people saying, wait a second, Wilma was a suspect back in
eighty eight. Why are you failing to mention this. If you didn't want
to make a big deal out of it, you shouldn't have tried to hide
it. Then, don't make a big deal about it. Just suck it
up, Just suck it out. Everybody, tell everybody what happened, and
we'll all move on accountability and transparency. Pardo told the Daily Press that he
spent a day in twenty sixteen interviewing Irvin B. Wells, Third, the
former special Agent in charge of the FBI's Norfolk Field office, about the Parkway
killings. Wells, who died in twenty twenty two, told Parto that the
FBI developed a profile of the killer as a local fisherman. The profile came
about after the first couple slain in nineteen eighty sive featured a fishing court,
a curved sharp knife, and diesel fuel. A few days after Colin Haley
disappeared in nineteen eighty eight, the FBI learned of a fisherman in a pickup
truck approaching couples on the Parkway. The FBI began watching him and spotted him
cleaning and spray painting his older truck four days later. Parter said Wells couldn't
remember the fisherman's name during the twenty sixteen interview, but the former special agent
recalled the man had a license plate such as edom raw. At the January
news conference, a state police spokeswoman released a picture of Wilmer's license plate E
M raw, along with nineteen eighty eight pictures of his faded blue pickup and
a fishing boat. As I mentioned, I also interviewed IRV. Wells twice
for hours at a time when we were shooting the Lover's Lane television series.
One of the other things that Wells said to me which really resonated, and
Blaine Pardo remembered this as well, which is that the Colonial Parkway murders were
the single greatest professional regret that IRV. Wells had in his very esteemed probably
forty year FBI career. The failure to solve this case was the thing that
bothered him the most. Next SUBHEB. Wilmer was cleared after polygraph. Pardos
said, Wells told him in twenty sixteen that the FBI administered a line detector
test on the Fisherman in nineteen eighty eight. He passed. Shocking Wells,
I know this guy did it, the special agent told his underlings at the
time, according to Pardo's account, you guys better be exploitive, right.
But after the polygraph, Pardos said, the FBI literally let him go.
And this is a story that I heard, just so we're clear on this
in nineteen eighty eight. So I heard this in real time from my father,
Joe Thomas, who passed on a few years ago, and he was
in touch with mister Wells and the case agents regularly during this timeframe, and
he my dad filled me in frequently on his conversations with them, and he
told me the driveway story back in nineteen eighty eight. Flashed forward all those
years in the twenty sixteen or so timeframe. When I met with Wells and
he told me the driveway story, I wanted to hear the whole thing,
from top to bottom. But as soon as he started telling me the story,
I remembered that my dad had spoken to the case agents about their great
disappointment and how they were absolutely certain they had the right guy. And it
appears that IRV Wells told Blame Pardo the same thing. The Colonial Parkway is
a secluded twenty two mile US roadway that runs between Jamestown and Yorktown by way
of Williamsburg. The Colonial Parkway murders, as they're widely known, include eight
homicides over three years. Two couples are believed to have been killed on the
parkway itself, in wooded sections of the roadway in York County, but in
the public's mind, the cases have also long included the killings of Nobling and
Edwards in Islivewight and another couple slain off Route sixty four in New Kent County.
The FBI said the entire case is still an active one. We're thankful
to everyone who has written or called into the tip line since the last announcement
naming Alan Wade Wilmer Senior as a suspect in January. Temple said, we
are continuing to encourage the public to call into the FBI's tip line one eight
hundred, call FBI or tips dot FBI dot gov. No tip is too
small and can be crucial in aiding this investigation. Virginia State Police spokeswoman Kuran
Geller asked that anyone who may have spent time with Wilmer, including hunting,
farming oysters and clams with him, or docking next to him at Ariam Marinas,
to call the FBI or to email the State Police at Questions at vsp
dot Virginia dot gov, and we would reiterate we completely support this and if
you have any information about Alan Wade Wilmer or any aspect of the Colonial Parkway
murders, please contact the FBI or the Virginia State Police. They really do
want to hear from you and as Coren Geller says, no piece of information
is too small. Something that you might not think is significant could be a
key to helping advance this case. Really important that our listeners and anyone who
hears this report understands that we absolutely want people to contact law enforcement with any
information they might have. Yeah, even though we are sitting here leveling criticisms
at the FBI and the VSP for the way that they have handled this,
that does not mean that we want you to not give tips to them.
They are the best investigative bodies to deal with this. We are not investigators.
We keep saying in it. We need to reiterate it. Bill and
I are not equipped to investigate this stuff. We're just not. For anybody
who has reached out to us with tips, we really appreciate it, but
please don't just take it to us. Take it to the FBI, and
take it to the VSP. They're the only people who are equipped to deal
with this stuff. We are not. We are podcasters. Final subhead closure
would be nice. Terry Haley Holman said that while she's not sure whether Wilmer
killed Sandra, who would now be fifty five, it also wouldn't surprise her.
He did it to other people, so it's very possible, she said.
I just find it hard to believe that he could do it by himself,
and I just like some concrete information closure in her own and other family
members' lifetimes would be nice, she said. Thomas said he doesn't know whether
Wilmer killed his twenty seven year old sister, Kathy, who was found dead
with her girlfriend, twenty one year old Becky Dalski on the Colonial Parkway in
nineteen eighty six. I believe that Alan Weide Wilmer will be link to other
unsolved homicides, Thomas said, I am rock solid certain about that. I
can't say for certain that he killed Kathy and Becky. I think it's too
early to say. And this is why we were so emphatic several months ago
about the need to put Alan Wade Wilmer Senior's DNA into COTIS. And we
feel very strongly that the Commonwealth of Virginia needs to change its rules. This
man is a confirmed serial killer by FBI standards. He killed three people in
two separate incidents, which qualifies him for serial killer status. He's dead,
he's not going to trial anytime soon, and putting his DNA into COTIS could
benefit the FBI, the Virginia State Police, and who knows how many other
law enforcement agencies and families who are looking for answers. Again, we will
continue to be harping on this. We need to put Wilmer DNA into the
CODA system. Absolutely. The mind of our Murder podcast, which deals into
the Colonial Parkway cases and other true crimes, posts a new episode every Monday.
I'm looking for answers, Thomas said of his focus on his sister's case.
Thirty eight years on. I've talked to so many people in law enforcement
that have worked this case. They've told me over and over again that this
is a solvable case. It just takes time, attention, and resources.
And the FBI wasn't putting in the time, attention and resources until the family
started ratcheting up the pressure. And that brings us to the end of our
article. That's a nice mic drop there, mister Thomas. What do you
say? I think it's the truth. Other people may disagree with me,
and they're welcome to. As a matter of fact, if someone wants to
tell us where we think we're wrong, please reach out to us for our
social media pages, the Colonial Parkway Murders page on Facebook, the mind Over
Murder page on Facebook, and of course we also have Twitter now called x
For reasons I still don't completely understand. We would love to hear from people
what their theories are, what they think, particularly people that have what they
hope will be new information which they'd like to provide to law enforcement. We
welcome a discussion about this. It's not like Kristen and Bill are saying we're
right and everybody else is wrong. Far from it. And we do support
further investigation into this case because we think that as law enforcement continues to work
this case, I think they're going to solve more of the Colonial Parkway murders,
and as we saw with Teresa Howell, I think we're going to identify
other victims and those families are waiting for answers too, and it's something I
think is very important that understand. We just saw new figures that we are
now looking at probably three hundred and fifty thousand and cold case homicides. We
were using a number of two hundred and fifty thousand. Now the number we're
seeing from good strong sources is we're probably talking about three hundred and fifty thousand
cold case homicides. Remember that means that there are literally millions of people going
to bed every night for the rest of their lives waiting for answers in terms
of who killed their loved ones. And I think those families deserve answers.
Well said, now, shifting gears just for one second to return to the
news and the Shenandoah case again. You want to talk about families that have
waited a very long time for answers. The Williams and the Winans family have
finally received information that will help them gain that. Again, we hate using
that word closure, guys, because there really is no such thing. If
you don't want to take it for me, you can take it from Bill
and any of the other family members. There is no such thing as closure
in this case. But at least now the Williams and the Winans family have
answers. In some cases, it is too little, too late. I
know the parents in one of these cases have passed on already. Bill,
remind me which one that is. Yeah, years ago I had talked to
both fathers, Mister and Missus Winans had both passed on. In more recent
years, I saw some very eloquent quotes from Tom Williams, who is Julie's
father. But the reason we saw no quotes from the Winans family is because
both the mother and the father are gone. Now I think there are other
family members, siblings and other folks. It just saddens me that even in
the years I've been involved in these cases, I had reached out to the
Williams and Winans families to share information and talk to them and get their perspectives.
And can picture Tom Williamham's voice in my head in reading the quotes in
the media coverage, and I'm pleased for them that they finally have some of
the answers that they were looking for. It saddens me that mister and missus
Winans are gone, and like so many of the parents in the Colonial Parkway
murders, they went to their graves without answers, and that part, I
think is the worst part of this whole thing. Absolutely, absolutely, We're
far enough into this episode at this point that it doesn't even feel worth it
to say that we're burying the lead on this because we are right here at
the end. But I do think it's really important just to emphasize, for
everybody, in case you missed it in the two episodes that we did with
Kate, it is really important to remind everybody at the press conference about the
Shenandoah case. The FBI did go out of their way to say the murders
of Julie Williams and Lolly Winans were not in any way connect to those of
Kathy Thomas and Becky Dowski. So I just want to ask Bill number one.
We've reiterated it, but number two, how did you feel when you
heard that there have been so many similarities between Julian and Lawley's case of Kathy
and Becky's. Were you hoping that there was going to be a connection or
are you relieved that there isn't one? What are your thoughts on that?
Based on what I knew, I was fairly certain that there wasn't going to
be a connection, and back in ninety six, the FBI did say publicly
that they were looking at substantial similarities. That was the expression they used between
the murder of Kathy Thomas and Rebeccadowski and Julie Williams and Lolly Winans. To
my knowledge, they'd never found that connection, but I thought it made perfect
sense that they were looking at those two sets of double homicides because there were
so many similarities. I'm still just looking for answers now in Kathy and Becky
and the other Colonial Parkway murders cases, and I think so many other cases
may be provided answers as a result of this investigation. So all I can
do is urge the FBI in the Virginia State Police keep working these cases.
I think there are more answers in the offing, and there are a lot
of other issues that we could get into regarding how the FBI has covered press
conferences in both of these cases, but it looks like we are going to
have to save that for another episode. That is going to do it for
this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll
see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our
logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod.
Is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook,
Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial
Parkway murders on Facebook. And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter
at Bill Thomas. Five six. Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder.