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and did you realize people give me a

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hard time because I am a girl? People don't look twice. Yeah,

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the initial idea of serial killing came
about when we were looking at particularly sexually

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motivated series of homicides. And so
when we all think about serial killers,

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we think about Ted Bundy or we
think about John Wayne Gacy. We had

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this idea in our minds about men
who are out there looking to prey on

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women's sexually over long period of time, than of course kill them afterwards.

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So that's our model of what a
serial killer is. And so again the

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answer I think is twofold. Number
one is we do know that there are

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far fewer women who have killed for
sexual motives, and yet at the same

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time, there are plenty of female
serial killers who have killed for other reasons.

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So we have to, I think, expand our idea of what a

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serial killer is if we want to
really look and kind of go, Yeah,

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there definitely are a lot more male
serial killers, but let's not overlook

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the female serial killers because they tend
to operate longer and to be more successful.

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And I put that quotation marks because
we're talking about body count deer.

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They tend to be more successful over
a longer period of time because they aren't

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most likely to be captured. Kelly
likes to talk most notably, Kelly likes

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to talk about Jason's murders a lot. He only killed two women, He

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targeted campers. There's eleven bodies in
Indiana. He only killed two people.

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He fed his victims to their pigs. He killed eleven people. Kelly kept

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all of Jason's trophies. She'll tell
you all about his murders and then claim

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she knows nothing about them. She
wasn't there, she wasn't involved. And

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as we've discussed, it's her list
of Jason's victims and Jason's own account of

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their crimes in Where Monsters Hide that
are considerably more credible than Kelly's list of

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her alleged twenty one victims. For
example, in his book Where Monsters Hide,

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Jason writes about a female drug addict
home wrecker, which sounds a lot

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like Alicia. In the book,
he also writes about an unwelcome man entering

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q Quack's house and his wife saving
the day, an ambiguous description of an

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event that leads to a neighborhood barbecue, and this is a clear reference to

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Chris Regan. Kelly's list of Jason's
victims describes a man who looks and drives

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the same unique car as Jason Ruter
aka Minnesota Jason, and that list also

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describes a murder that actually took place, the Tennessee Motel murder, And while

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it doesn't seem like the Cochranes were
involved, it is odd that Kelly knew

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the details of such an unpublicized homicide
hundreds of miles from their home a decade

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after it occurred. My point is, if we're trying to make sense out

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of all the crazy things the Cochranes
have said and written, the most reliable

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place to look is Jason. Things
Jason wrote and things Kelly said about Chasten's

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crimes, crimes she says she had
nothing to do with, and that takes

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us to what I believe is the
major crux of this whole case, a

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culture that Kelly has studied and exploited
all along the ways in which gender and

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sex are perceived, reported on,
and investigated in crime in America, specifically

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women as victims and men as invulnerable. So let's start with the most glaringly

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obvious. Men are murderers, women
are victims. Women don't kill. Clearly

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that's not the case. I've thought
a lot about and done a lot of

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comparing of Kelly's crimes versus israel Keys
as crimes, and I would be lying

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to myself if I said there wasn't
to major disparity in the ways I've told

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those two stories. And look,
it's not entirely black and white, nor

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based solely on gender or sex.
But I can't admit that the humor within

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the outlandishness of Kelly's crimes might actually
exist simply because she's a woman. Consider

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for a moment your reaction to israel
Keys throwing up in a victim's mouth.

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It's a horrifying and deeply haunting idea. I would probably assume it was about

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controlling and demeaning a victim. With
Kelly, it's so crazy that it's funny.

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It's crazy and or funny when women
exert control over or demean men,

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at least narratively. So I've found
myself getting frustrated over or laughing at,

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or some combination of the two.
Many of the things Kelly has said and

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done, but when Keys did similar
things, he was a mystery. Keys

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is calculating, enigmatic, meticulous.
Kelly is ridiculous, a liar, manipulative,

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and in all truth, both Keys
and Kelly are all of those things.

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Israel Keys has been dead for almost
eight years, and I'm still terrified

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of him. Kelly Cochrane is alive
and well, and I'm writing her letters

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without even blinking an eye. Sexism
in in crime is a real thing,

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and Kelly knows it and uses it. That's what makes her terrifying. I

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used to think it was stupid and
insane that Kelly thought she could kill multiple

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men who she had relationships with and
get away with it. And obviously in

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the end she didn't get away with
it. But it's very clear there were

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victims before Chris Regan, and even
in Regan's case, Jason was the suspect

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long before Kelly was. In fact, at first, Kelly was viewed as

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a vulnerable victim of Jason's and were
it not for Chief Frizzo, probably would

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have continued to be viewed that way. As you'll recall, Michigan State Police

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didn't think Kelly was involved and actually
refused to investigate her. Kelly thought she

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could get away with it because,
like she said, women are overlooked,

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and like doctor Johnston said, women
are generally more successful serial killers than men,

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and that they tend to get away
with it for much longer because they're

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overlooked. Velma Barfield killed at least
six people over a nine year year span.

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Amy Archer Gilligan killed more than five
people over a seven year span.

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Bell Gunnis killed at least fourteen people
over a twenty four year span. Ronda

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Bell Martin killed between five and eight
family members over a span of twenty plus

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years. Dorothea Puente killed between nine
and fifteen people over a six year span.

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Jane Toppin killed more than thirty one
people over a six year span.

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Shirley Winters is believed to have killed
upwards of ten people over a fifty year

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span. I'd only heard of two
of those women prior to my research.

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In fact, of the sixty three
female serial killers listed on Wikipedia, I'd

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only heard of about ten percent of
them. Now, let's take a look

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at some of their male contemporaries.
Ted Bundy killed more than thirty women over

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a four year span. John Wayne
Gacy killed at least thirty three men over

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a six year span. Edmund Kemper
killed ten people over a nine year span.

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Jeffrey Dahmer killed seventeen men over a
thirteen year span. Israel Keys is

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believed to have killed at least eleven
people over a fourteen year span. There

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are over three hundred American male serial
killers listed on Wikipedia. I knew of

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about eighty five percent of them,
so there's already some great disparities and how

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we report on and sensationalize male versus
female serial killers. And while there isn't

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exact data available, after an analysis
of twenty random female serial killers and twenty

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random male serial killers, I found
that, as an average, female serial

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killers are apprehended after fourteen years of
murdering, while male serial killers are apprehended

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on average after five years. Additionally, most of those women were killing people

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close to them, while most of
those men were killing at random. Women

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are overlooked, especially when it comes
to killing men. The women who were

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apprehended earlier in their sprees were women
who were murdering children, women who were

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killing, men were generally arrested much
later in their sprees, which brings us

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back to the perceived invulnerability of men, something else Kelly exploited. According to

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Nemus, there are currently ten thousand, five hundred thirty one missing men in

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America. That's more than sixty percent
of their total missing persons records. This

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is a trend consistent across all missing
persons databases, which, and I cannot

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stress this enough, do not come
close to measuring the immeasurable number of actual

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missing people in America. But as
a trend, it's a bit eyebrow raising

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considering the disparities in media coverage of
missing men versus missing women, which is

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already supremely unbalanced in its focus on
missing white women. In this podcast,

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we've talked a lot about the media's
lack of reporting on missing and murdered Indigenous

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women and minorities in general in America, a lack of reporting that I think

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can be fairly summed up by a
combination of apathy and editorialism. But why

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aren't they reporting on missing men?
Why aren't most Americans on a first name

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basis with missing men like they are
with Maura Murray Brianna Maitland, Leah Roberts,

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Jennifer Kess, Lauren Speer, and
so on. I don't pose this

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question to insinuate that there's too much
reporting on those or any missing women,

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because there probably can't ever be too
much reporting on any missing people, but

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merely to ask why aren't we reporting
equally on missing men and obviously missing minorities.

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If you ask me, and this
is reductive, it's sexism. We

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don't want to editorialize men as vulnerable. It's a trope that's so pervasive with

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an American media and storytelling. Women
need to be saved, men do the

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saving, and that's extended itself into
true crime narratives and the way we talk

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about crime in general. Until this
podcast, most people who knew who Israel

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Keys was had no idea that he
targeted men. There are countless movies based

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on male serial killers who targeted women, and they're all told through a lens

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of horror and trauma. And while
I'm sure there are more, the only

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movie I can think of based on
a female serial killer is Monster, which

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tonally is both erotic and comedic.
The idea of a woman killing men is

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funny and that's mostly been the tone
of this very podcast. We call her

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crazy Kelly, not scary Kelly.
And Kelly knew that she studied serial killers,

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she studied forensics, she studied psychology. Kelly was a deptly aware of

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how overlooked women are in the commission
of violent crime. She was also aware

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of how overlooked men are as victims
and specifically which men. In both Kelly's

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and Jason's narratives, there are three
types of victims that come up over and

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over again veterans, campers, and
drug users and drug dealers. And I

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don't think it's coincidence that these are
the three groups of men who are most

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likely to go missing and least likely
to be reported on. Let's take a

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look at veterans in America. According
to the United States Department of Housing and

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Urban Development, more than forty nine
thousand veterans in America are reported as either

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homeless or missing. It's actually so
pervasive in America that legislators are working with

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the VFW to implement a Green Alert, which would be a statewide ID alert

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system similar to the Amber Alert,
specifically for missing vets. Wisconsin is on

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track to be the first state to
test the green alert. But that's demonstrative

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of both how often vets go missing
and how frequently their disappearances are related to

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or presumed to be related to homelessness, which makes them easy and vulnerable targets.

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Chris Reagan and Eric Ericson were both
vets, and according to Kelly,

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so were at least three of her
other victims, including Gary from Calumet City

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and Minnesota Jason. A little less
than fifty percent of Kelly's list of Jason's

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victims consists of men who were camping, and as we learned from the Keys

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case, when male campers go missing, it's presumed accidental or suicide. Again,

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they make incredibly easy and vulnerable targets. And it's not just Kelly's list

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that focuses on campers. Several people
close to the Cochranes mentioned that Jason talked

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about killing people while camping and in
one instance referred to his murders as camping.

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And then there's Colton's account of being
drugged on a camping trip with Kelly

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and Jason and the Cochranes. Well, they went camping a lot. Unfortunately,

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because investigators didn't expend a lot of
effort looking into the Cochranes beyond the

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scope of Chris Regan's murder. There
isn't much of a timeline for them outside

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of their time in the Upper Peninsula, of course, but even in those

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two years, the Cochranes went camping
at least nine times, and as Colton

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told investigators, even prior to their
move up north, the Cochranes went on

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many camping trips throughout Indiana, Michigan, Kentucky, Missouri, Illinois, and

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Tennessee, all states that have come
up in Kelly's conversations about locations where she's

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killed people. And then there's drug
users and dealers, and this is probably

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the easiest and most vulnerable target for
Kelly. She was a drug user who

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hung around with both dealers and other
users very frequently, and this group,

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more than any other, are underreported
when it comes to disappearances and murders.

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It's choked up to homelessness or crime
on crime when a drug user or dealer

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goes missing or gets murdered. Deborah
Feldman is a great example of this.

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There was no coverage on her disappearance. Everyone in her life and local law

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enforcement just assumed she'd either odeed or
was a living on the streets, and

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it wasn't until her name came up
in the Keys investigation that anyone took her

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disappearance seriously. And again, there's
a precedence with drug users and dealers as

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victims when it comes to the Cochranes, Jason talked about killing a drug dealer

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that Kelly was sleeping with. Kelly's
list of victims includes multiple men she claims

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to have done drugs with. Jason
rud Is alleged to have been involved in

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drugs. Alicia was an addict and
Kelly tried to overdose her. Kelly also

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injected Jason with enough heroine to kill
him prior to suffocating him. Kelly knew

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she would be overlooked as a woman
who killed people, and she knew exactly

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who would be overlooked as murder victims. She knew she could kill people close

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to her and get away with it. She knew it because there's a long

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line of women who did it before
her, and she knew, or at

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least thought, she could reasonably make
Jason look responsible for all of her murders,

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even her murder of him. Sometimes
there's no greater power than being underestimated

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and overlooked. Now there is a
fourth group of vulnerable people who the Cochranes

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may have exploited, specifically because it's
not one Kelly talks about much. If

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ever, she repeatedly makes a point
to talk about military service multiple times when

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discussing hers and Jason's victims. She
says things like I'm pretty sure he was

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in the military. She also talks
a lot about men she did drugs with

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before murdering, or drug dealers she
slept with behind Jason's back, and then

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of course, camping is very prevalent
in all of her lists and stories,

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but Kelly doesn't talk much about race, specifically black men, at all,

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despite it coming up with Jason.
As you may remember, according to people

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close to Jason, he talked a
lot about killing black people and racially motivated

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attacks, and Kelly's list and conversation
have her killing multiple men in both Gary

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and the South Side of Chicago,
both areas that are over ninety percent black.

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And if you look closely at both
of Kelly's lists and even venture to

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believe that there's any truth to them, there are two things that stand out.

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One Kelly never mentions the race of
any of hers or Jason's victims,

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and two Jason's list, the only
list with exact dates of murders, actually

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includes dates and locations that match up
to missing men missing black men. Take,

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for example, Noah question Mark from
Jason's list. Kelly wrote that Jason

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murdered Noah question on May twelfth of
two thousand eight and then disposed of his

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remains in Robinson Lake Park near their
home on Mississippi Street. Now, there

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are no reports of a man named
Noah who disappeared on May twelfth of two

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thousand eight, or any date surrounding
May twelfth of two thousand eight. There

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is, however, a man named
Nicholas who disappeared on that exact date from

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the South side of Chicago, just
thirty four miles from the Cochrane's home.

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Nicholas O. Brown, a black, twenty one year old man, was

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last seen on the twenty nine hundred
block of South Dearborn Street in Chicago at

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around seven pm on May twelfth.
Nicholas was known to be involved in both

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street gangs and local drug trade,
and in addition to the date and location

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matching, there are few other things
that stand out about Nicholas's disappearance. One

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Kelly's list of her alleged victims includes
a Michael Marcus, who was from the

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South Side of Chicago. Kelly doesn't
state when this murder occurred, but her

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mostly chronological list would place this murder
sometime around two thousand and six. She

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claimed she only met him once while
doing drugs before stabbing him in the neck,

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and all of her talking of her
alleged victims, this is the one

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she discusses the least two. According
to medical records and witness interviews, Kelly

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checked into a mental health facility exactly
two months before Nicholas brown disappeared, and

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Jason Well he checked into a mental
health facility in late May of two thousand

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and eight. And while the for
the Cochran's being involved in Nicholas Browne's disappearance

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is a lot more tenuous than say
Andrew Fugates, the date, the location,

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and the victim profile all match.
And then there's all this talk of

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Jason targeting the black community and his
resentment towards the many, many drug users

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in Kelly's life. When we talk
about overlooked groups and true crime, missing

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and murdered black men is a big
one, and Chicago. Essentially, the

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Cochrane's backyard is an epicenter. According
to Namis and the Charlie Project, there

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are at minimum thirty seven unsolved disappearances
of black men in Chicago, and about

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seventy five percent of all unsolved homicides
in Chicago are homicides of black men.

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They may be one of these most
easy and vulnerable targets. Kelly knew exactly

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what types of victims would be overlooked, and they all come up in her

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lists, Jason's book, Kelly's Conversations
with Ogden, and or Jason's Conversations with

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Friends. Kelly knew exactly how and
why should be overlooked as a killer,

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much like her victimology. She used
that to her advantage in setting Jason up,

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in her storytelling and in her methods
of murder and attempted murder, and

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that subsists even in everything we think
we know about the crimes we can connect

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her to, specifically Chris Reagan.
Everything we know about that murder, the

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actual murder self, we've learned from
Kelly. There was no physical evidence in

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the Cochrane home other than Chris's DNA
on the forceps used to remove the bullet

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that killed him. The narrative is
that Kelly lured him into their home,

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where Jason shot him on the landing
near their back door, then dismembered him

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in their basement. In some stories, Chris and Kelly fall down the basement

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stairs together after he shot, and
others just Chris falls down, and in

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one story the Cochranes carry him down
the stairs after the shooting. But before

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this story became the story, one
investigator wondered aloud how Jason could shoot Chris

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and the back of the head from
the basement. It just didn't seem possible.

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In Kelly's various stories, Chris's always
engaging in some sort of sex act

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with her against the wall facing the
back door, which would place Chris above

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and to the right of the basement
steps. If Jason shot him from the

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basement, he would have shot him
in the side of the head. And

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then there's the landing and that specific
wall staples were found in the joists of

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the basement walls, and there's evidence
the Cochranes bought and then burned plastic sheeting,

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so Chris was likely dismembered, and
what was essentially a plastic wrapped room

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and the Cochranes painted several rooms in
their house following the murder, but they

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didn't paint the room that Kelly alleges
Jason killed Chris in because, as you'll

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remember, Chris was allegedly murdered beneath
a hand painted danced like no One's Watching

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mural, and there was no blood
or DNA evidence found anywhere in that room

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or on that wall. The story, as we know it can't be corroborated.

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The only two other people who were
there are now dead. But Kelly

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has made it very clear that Chris
Regan was definitively murdered by Jason. He's

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on Jason's list. Jason shot him
at an impossible angle from the basement,

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00:28:36.279 --> 00:28:42.759
up the stairs into a room that
had absolutely no DNA evidence, just like

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he promised in that vow that no
one can corroborate. If we're trying to

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make sense out of the crazy things
the Cochranes have said and written, the

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most reliable place to look is Jason. Things Kelly said about Jason's crimes and

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00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:15.400
things Jason wrote, like when he
wrote about an unwelcome man entering quack Quack's

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home. Wife saves the day Kelly
knows how to exploit he overlooked and underestimated.

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Did you realize people give me a
hard time because I am a girl?

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But don't look twice you see.
This episode was written, produced,

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00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:22.079
and researched by me your host,
Josh Hallmark, with research assistants from Becca

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00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:26.920
Klein. Thank you to doctor Joni
Johnston for providing insight into female serial killers.

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00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:33.799
Research resources include the Chicago Tribune,
The Washington Post, Namis, and

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the Charlie Project. Thank you to
True Crime Bullshit's newest Patreon supporters, Becca

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00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:47.519
F. Sarah P, Joseph H, and Joe N. This episode featured

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music by William Hellfire, Lee Rooseveer, Lebonne, Sergei Cheramisanov, Radical Face,

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and Empress of on the outside.
I'm only a figure should see my

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00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:26.799
friend. I only a figure should
see my friend. Only a figures should

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00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:33.160
see my friend. First, the
firest, the firest, the flame.

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00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:38.400
I want to struggle, fagget in
your way. I want to struggle,

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00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:45.839
fagget in your way. I'm only
a struggle fagging Where you mean the road

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00:31:47.319 --> 00:32:00.799
be the road? One way is
where I'm an A woman is a word

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00:32:00.920 --> 00:32:09.960
hurt me, but burt me.
I'm always coming on inside. I always

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00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:19.240
coming on the inside. I always
coming on inside when you can, when

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00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:22.559
you can knock outside