WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:10.039 This podcast contains intense subject matter. Listener discretion is advised. So you remember 2 00:00:10.160 --> 00:00:13.279 finding the remember, Yeah, it was actually I was with my dad when 3 00:00:13.759 --> 00:00:17.039 because I was only eight, I was surprised how much I could remember, 4 00:00:17.399 --> 00:00:21.480 you know, because I came up here and made to make sure to make 5 00:00:21.480 --> 00:00:24.320 sure I knew what I was talking about, and I could remember it. 6 00:00:24.359 --> 00:00:29.239 And yeah, so it was pretty easy to find the campsite. And I 7 00:00:29.280 --> 00:00:32.200 went up there and walked around, and I think I got real close to 8 00:00:32.479 --> 00:00:52.880 uh to where to where the grave was. Yeah, from the pages of 9 00:00:52.920 --> 00:01:06.680 the reporter's notebook. This is still season two. I'm your host, Gary 10 00:01:06.760 --> 00:01:45.519 Anderson. I'm not knowing you way about the pin. Yeah, lit the 11 00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:47.959 pin s. Yeah, I'm back there, but I'm like, okay, 12 00:01:47.959 --> 00:01:51.439 we'll learn. What are you guys here in this area? Were below? 13 00:01:51.439 --> 00:01:53.599 We're back below, but we're gonna let Rob row. I don't know what 14 00:01:53.760 --> 00:02:00.239 Rober this. We're deep into the foothills of the Blue Mountain in eastern Oregon 15 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:07.959 degree everybody brought a camp trailer, I remember that, and one family was 16 00:02:07.039 --> 00:02:12.759 camped over there. I think we were camped pretty much in front of my 17 00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:17.199 truck. And then there was another another camper down there. My colleagues and 18 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:22.759 I caravan up here with the group. All told, there were a dozen 19 00:02:22.800 --> 00:02:27.719 of us plus a few dogs before we arrived at this spot. We all 20 00:02:27.800 --> 00:02:35.680 rendezvoused in the nearest town Okay, now Somerville, Oregon, population one hundred 21 00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:42.960 and forty four. Okay, I'm like I recogna's okay, Sirian Christine. 22 00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:46.360 Nice to meet you, guys. The town is about ten miles southeast of 23 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:52.800 where an unidentified woman's remains were found by hunters in late August of nineteen seventy 24 00:02:52.800 --> 00:03:02.879 eight. We're here to see that spot, learn more about the case, 25 00:03:04.120 --> 00:03:08.680 and do some searching for more evidence. On this mild August day in twenty 26 00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:13.599 twenty one, we're joined by Susanne Tims, who, as you may recall, 27 00:03:13.879 --> 00:03:17.199 is Pattie and Ralph Otto's daughter. She changed her name from Dallas to 28 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:23.400 Susanne when her aunt Marcy adopted her and her sister Natalie. Susanne believes that 29 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:28.039 Jane Doe, the hunters found more than forty years ago, could have been 30 00:03:28.120 --> 00:03:30.759 her mom. Okay, all right, we've been waiting a long time for 31 00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:35.639 those guys. Yes, this is big, it's exciting, and we're going 32 00:03:35.719 --> 00:03:38.360 to bring back some good news today. So we're gonna bring back some good 33 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:44.479 news. Let's do this. We'll introduce you to other members of this group 34 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:49.479 as you hear their voices. From the meeting point in town. We all 35 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:55.759 followed a rural road past fields and acres and acres of farms. This is 36 00:03:55.800 --> 00:04:00.520 the type of land that looks like a patchwork quilt if you look at it 37 00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:05.360 from a satellite view. The first leg of the drive was punctuated by abrupt 38 00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:11.520 ninety degree turns as Somerville Road in Dry Creek Lane traced the edges of crop 39 00:04:11.639 --> 00:04:17.160 ridge fields. At Craig Loop, we ran out of pavement. From there, 40 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:21.720 our tires followed shallow ruts in the dirt and gravel. Do we have 41 00:04:21.800 --> 00:04:30.600 any idea what this mountain is called? When we finally reached Ruckle Road, 42 00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:36.639 we turned right and headed farther north past jack Cold and Moonshine canyons, slowly 43 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:46.319 ascending into the mountains. There's no service. The chalky road that took us 44 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:50.920 up here was originally the Thomas and Ruckll toll Road for horse led wagons. 45 00:04:53.319 --> 00:04:57.519 Over the past century and a half, the road has been trecked by bandits, 46 00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:03.399 loggers, day trippers, and hippies. As the road gradually narrowed, 47 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:09.839 we occasionally had to make way for another vehicle to pass. At times, 48 00:05:10.040 --> 00:05:15.360 tree branches scraped against our car. The road was washed out by mudslides in 49 00:05:15.399 --> 00:05:18.279 the past, but the gravel is still in relatively good shape, with just 50 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:24.360 a few ruts and deeper dips here and there. By the time we stopped, 51 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:29.639 the trees looked as tall as skyscrapers. We parked and walked a few 52 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:33.240 yards toward a small clearing on our left. But what we have to remember 53 00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:41.199 is we're looking at forty years of growth here in fact, because this and 54 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:45.240 I would bet that if we uncovered all that brush, we'd find a fire 55 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:50.240 pit, because that's where everybody hung out. And back then you could see 56 00:05:50.279 --> 00:05:54.319 this, You could see that whole ridge. You know, those trees weren't, 57 00:05:54.879 --> 00:06:00.480 you know, nearly as tall as they are now. And yeah, 58 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:06.680 this was definitely the spot. That's Rob Parr talking. He was only eight 59 00:06:06.759 --> 00:06:11.800 years old in nineteen seventy eight when his dad and a buddy took their sons 60 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:15.800 with them for a big game hunt. The old population around the Blue Mountains 61 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:20.839 of eastern Oregon was thriving back then, and hunters from surrounding states flocked to 62 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:28.120 the area. The clearing we were standing in had held campsites for several hunters, 63 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:32.199 and it was still only archery season. Rob and his dad were only 64 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:36.680 about thirty miles from their home, but in terrain like this, driving thirty 65 00:06:36.680 --> 00:06:43.399 miles takes well over an hour. Camping overnight is not only practical, it's 66 00:06:43.439 --> 00:06:49.720 part of the experience. So, and where we found the skeleton is just 67 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:53.480 up there's kind of a little ridge right here. It kind of goes up 68 00:06:53.480 --> 00:06:56.839 and then back down before it heads up heads up that hill, and it 69 00:06:56.879 --> 00:06:59.839 was right up there alongside the right on that ridge. You'll see it when 70 00:06:59.839 --> 00:07:01.240 we go down there. There. We go down through this crick we just 71 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:06.040 followed up, and it's just right down through the other crick on a game 72 00:07:06.040 --> 00:07:10.920 trail, and that game trail is still there. So you know, how 73 00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:15.240 animals are there, creatures of habit And so the son of the other adult 74 00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:21.079 hunter in their party was the first to stumble across the woman's remains. Large 75 00:07:21.079 --> 00:07:25.959 groupings of bones appeared to have been dug up by animals, and we're lying 76 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:29.879 on the trail in front of him when we came back up and found it, 77 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:32.079 you know, because it was initially found and then you know, the 78 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:36.079 kid didn't know where it was, and so everybody came up looking, and 79 00:07:38.040 --> 00:07:41.519 I remember my dad and I we were done, we were we couldn't find 80 00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:45.000 it. Everybody's calling it quits, and we were headed back and we were 81 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:49.720 coming from this direction down the trail, and bam, there it was. 82 00:07:50.839 --> 00:07:59.680 But I vividly remember them, the skull, the boots in between the skull 83 00:08:00.279 --> 00:08:05.920 and rib cache. I can see it plain his day. We followed Rob 84 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:09.319 up the same path law enforcement took as they responded to the scene in nineteen 85 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:18.839 seventy eight. And I'm not a detective, but this area, just the 86 00:08:18.879 --> 00:08:22.519 way the grass has kind of looked down there, and the way this ground 87 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:28.680 looks right here, there's really no reason for this pilot dirt here, and 88 00:08:28.759 --> 00:08:35.679 there's an indentation there. And because I remember, you know, as the 89 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:37.919 corners were going through and sipton, yeah, you know, they left a 90 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:43.360 pilot of dirt on each side of they never backfilled it. Well, yeah, 91 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:48.200 where were they? The woman's voice you here is Melinda Jetterburg, a 92 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:52.559 volunteer investigator who has been working since twenty nineteen, to try to help the 93 00:08:52.639 --> 00:08:58.879 jandoe reclaim her identity, She and other volunteers formed the Finlay Creek Jandoe Task 94 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:05.600 Force. Here's Rob Parr again talking about watching the investigators search for evidence in 95 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:09.320 the shallow grave. I'm not saying this is the spot, but I know 96 00:09:09.399 --> 00:09:13.559 we're really I know we're really really close because as a kid, you know, 97 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:18.240 being a curious eight year old kid, I would sneak away, you 98 00:09:18.279 --> 00:09:20.360 know, because I wasn't enough to help with my dad when they go out 99 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:24.480 in these big hunts in the mornings, and I would sneak away from camp 100 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:26.799 and come up here and watch, you know, just as a curious kid. 101 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:30.360 And I remember watching them. I remember there was two of them. 102 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:33.200 I remember they had their little screens out and they were just sifting away through 103 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:39.720 the dirt. But Suzanne, you're really close right here. I know you 104 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:52.759 are. Investigators work for days at the site, taking photos, documenting locations 105 00:09:52.840 --> 00:09:58.000 of every bone and scrap of cloth, sifting through dirt for tiny remnants of 106 00:09:58.039 --> 00:10:01.120 bone, and slowly bringing every thing they could find out of the shallow grave. 107 00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:07.240 The grave appeared to be a little more than two feet deep. It 108 00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:13.279 was twenty inches wide and four feet long. A cable possibly from a CBE 109 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:18.159 radio or a high end stereo, and pieces of a nylon cord were buried 110 00:10:18.159 --> 00:10:24.279 with the bones. There were no obvious signs of trauma on their remains, 111 00:10:24.440 --> 00:10:26.879 which appeared to have been in the ground anywhere from two to five years. 112 00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:35.919 The investigators recovered a pair of red pants Catalina brand Junior's size fifteen Ladies Size 113 00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:43.000 sixteen. The length had been altered. They also found some zippers and what 114 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:48.240 appeared to have once been white cloth, possibly from a halter top. The 115 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:52.360 clothing all appeared to be consistent with someone who was dressed for warm weather, 116 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:58.399 all except for a pair of ankle high lace up boots. The woman had 117 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:03.679 light brown or blonde hair and appeared to be in her early twenties. The 118 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:09.600 medical examiner estimated that she stood between five foot one and five foot four inches 119 00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:13.960 tall and had a slight build, weighing anywhere from one hundred and fifteen to 120 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:20.159 one hundred and forty pounds. The crews working at the crime scene were not 121 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:24.159 able to find the entire skeleton. Portions of her right arm and hand were 122 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:33.559 missing. The bones were probably carried away by animals. Before our team went 123 00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:37.519 to the site, Susanna arranged to have a canine handler meet us there with 124 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:46.480 a dog to see if anything else could be sniffed out, Like, oh 125 00:11:46.519 --> 00:12:13.600 my gosh, even after forty years, finding just a tooth is not an 126 00:12:13.639 --> 00:12:20.519 impossible task for a well trained search dog. Amity Larson, who is with 127 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:26.200 us today, is a nationally certified search and rescue canine handler who also raises, 128 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:31.399 trains and sometimes breeds German shepherds for this type of work. As Rob 129 00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:35.600 showed us the spot where he remembers seeing the grave, Amity and her dog 130 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:41.240 Brand worked the hill in a meticulous pattern, sweeping back and forth across the 131 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:46.639 slope. Sometimes the dog ran up the hill, but Bran seemed most interested 132 00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:50.039 in areas below where the grave had been. So we've been in both of 133 00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:54.279 those areas several times and it's like she kind of checks that moves down. 134 00:12:54.759 --> 00:13:00.399 But if you take that all into account, yet exactly right, so where 135 00:13:00.440 --> 00:13:05.200 everything runs down, so um, it would be different if we had someone 136 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:11.519 buried there, because she probably still would pick up odor down because of water 137 00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:15.440 going down through, you know, hydraulics and stuff going down through, But 138 00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:18.080 she would be more inclined to be like, though, there's something here, 139 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:20.840 and it's here, and here's the here's the box that you're going to find 140 00:13:20.840 --> 00:13:24.279 it in. And when we've worked graves where I know that, you know 141 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:28.840 the body is in that grave, she's done that. She's worked the edges 142 00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:31.039 of the grave. Mafra. She's more likely to alert on the edge of 143 00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:35.840 a grave than on top of it, so because that's where the odors mostly 144 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:41.759 odors escaping, it's from the edge of it. As we watched Amity and 145 00:13:41.799 --> 00:13:46.039 Brin work, several of us gathered and chatted on the slope above the grave. 146 00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:50.120 Susanne sat down on the ground to rest. The search dog ran up 147 00:13:50.120 --> 00:13:54.759 and laid down next to Suzanne, something it's trained to do when it finds 148 00:13:54.799 --> 00:13:58.600 something. No one said a word. I meant my heart about stopped. 149 00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:03.559 M yeah, and twice. What is that When the dog sits down, 150 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:07.200 that's the sign to say, lay down, lay down down sign. I 151 00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:11.240 think she did lay down one. That means she found something. This is 152 00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:18.200 it. But they were explaining she thinks she's also trained to search for an 153 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:22.840 injured hiker. So Susanne is sitting down. She may have said I found 154 00:14:22.840 --> 00:14:24.799 some Everyone else was standing at the time. Hond was the only one sitting. 155 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:31.720 I found her. She's the injured one. You are injured, Dianne 156 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:37.039 injured. I think I smell like injury. That other voice you heard was 157 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:43.200 Jennifer Harrington, Susanne's cousin. She has helped tremendously with the research for this 158 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:48.120 case, helping to track down documents and witnesses. After Bryn laid down next 159 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:52.840 to Suzanne, Amity called her back to work, saying, that's not your 160 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:58.200 person. Melinda, the researcher, and Rob talked about some of the early 161 00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:01.759 theories about who the Jane Doak be. Also on Craig Loop, there was 162 00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:05.960 a woman named Burt Metcalf who lived there, and she and her family were 163 00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:11.799 really familiar with this area. They hunted here too, So I came here 164 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:16.039 with her and her son as well, and we wandered around up here a 165 00:15:16.039 --> 00:15:20.159 little bit. I've just never been able to zero in on the exact area, 166 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:24.480 so I'm hoping I can well, and maybe you'll know. But I 167 00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:28.720 just remember, you know, everybody was speculating back at the time that there 168 00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:33.600 used to be In the late sixties and early seventies, there was a hippies 169 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:37.720 camp somewhere up here and like, and I mean when I was a kid. 170 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:39.399 I mean, because they had a bunch of garbage, they had, 171 00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:41.639 like their own, their own garbage to dump over there, and being an 172 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:45.440 eight year old kid, I was over there crawling through their garbage, you 173 00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:48.600 know. And I think it was right a little bit down the creek from 174 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:54.000 here, and so people were speculating at the time that, you know, 175 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:58.799 it was a hippies had it was a hippie kill, basically, that was 176 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:02.600 the speculation that I remember him talking about at the time. Yeah, I 177 00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:06.799 heard that rumor as well. I had two different women who lived on Craig 178 00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:12.200 Loop at the time call me after the newspaper article came out last year saying 179 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:15.639 that they remembered to women who had been up here and they just saw them 180 00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:18.600 walking and they thought they were squatting. I don't know if you guys saw 181 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:22.799 me point out the window at Stanley Cabin back there, they think that they 182 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:26.159 were squatting there. If you go down there, there's not much down there 183 00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:33.320 now, but there's also when you go back a little ways, you can 184 00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:37.039 see the base of another cabin that used to be there, So you know, 185 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:41.919 there's anywhere that they could have been staying up here. We called Bertha 186 00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:48.720 Metcalf to try to get more details about what she remembers. Hello, Hi, 187 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:53.919 is this Bertha? Yes, I could tell you everything I know. 188 00:16:55.399 --> 00:16:59.879 Okay, from what I understand, you recall seeing two women who were wandering 189 00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:03.519 the roads around the time that the body was found. Yes, my husband 190 00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:07.599 and I was working out front in the yard and we saw these two young 191 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:15.319 girls walk by the house. And I'm trying to think if she had red 192 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:21.319 pantshone or checks or something. I can't remember, but they just was walking 193 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:23.720 by and we said hi, they said hi, and they kept on going, 194 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:30.279 and we watched them turn off Craig Loop and go up Bruckel and that's 195 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:37.319 always saw And did either of them seem to be in distress? No, 196 00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:41.119 they did not. Do you feel like one of the women you saw is 197 00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:48.640 the body that was later found. I'm thinking it was, okay because she 198 00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:53.960 was the smaller of the two. And what puzzles me is what happened to 199 00:17:55.000 --> 00:18:03.200 the other woman? Right right? And yeah, were they followed? Yeah? 200 00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:07.160 I mean, you know, I worked for a police department for ten 201 00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:11.640 years and I do have always questioned that Dale Mammon and I have discussed this, 202 00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:15.079 so I just I don't know. I have a lot of questions. 203 00:18:17.079 --> 00:18:22.240 Dale Mammon was the district attorney for Union County back in the seventies. Later, 204 00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:25.799 you're going to hear his recollections of going to the site and seeing the 205 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:30.640 grave. So what other questions do you have? Maybe it was a guy 206 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:36.799 dressed up like a girl, I don't know. Yeah, but what happened 207 00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:41.960 to her for him? And how was this lady killed? I would be 208 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:48.359 taking up like an archaeology dig and I would try and find some bones left 209 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:52.759 over, because surely that god, they didn't get all them bones. And 210 00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:59.079 with DNA today, you know, Bertha put us in touch with her son 211 00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:03.319 Kit. He didn't have much to add to what his mother already told us, 212 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:07.480 but we wanted to ask him if it seemed reasonable that someone from Lewiston, 213 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:11.000 Idaho might go to the area to hunt Idahope I would have had good 214 00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:15.240 hunting, But I mean, we had people from Texas everywhere, so there 215 00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:21.079 could have been people from Lewiston. The Lewiston angle felt like a reach, 216 00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:25.720 but we were really curious if it's plausible to think that Ralph could have come 217 00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:36.839 all the way to this spot to bury his wife. If so, to 218 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:40.799 get here from Lewiston, Idaho, he probably would have gone across the Snake 219 00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:45.599 River into Washington and taken Highway one twenty nine down through a Sotan and into 220 00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:52.880 the hills and gulches of southeast Washington and northeast Oregon. We drove it just 221 00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:56.000 to see what the drive would be like, and it was quite the experience. 222 00:19:57.400 --> 00:20:02.839 While you navigate switch back turns, winding up and down steep canyons, 223 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:07.880 in particular the Grand Rond River Canyon, you have to be alert for wildlife, 224 00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:11.200 which there's plenty of right in the middle of the road, be ready 225 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:17.519 to break at any moment. All told, it took us more than three 226 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:21.400 hours to make the drive one way, and we were doing it in the 227 00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:26.279 daylight and on a paved surface. Back in nineteen seventy six, this highway 228 00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:30.839 only had gravel in some spots, and the guardrails that gave us a monicum 229 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:37.960 of security hadn't yet been installed. We didn't even want to imagine making that 230 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:44.400 drive while drunk, sleepy, or high on drugs. Randy Benton, the 231 00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:48.960 man Ralph wanted to kill because of a brief relationship with Patty had made that 232 00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:52.400 drive often when he was playing gigs with his band. When we played for 233 00:20:52.519 --> 00:21:03.759 the Joseph Radio Road. I dated a girl in there or Joseph as the 234 00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:07.559 crow flies. Joseph, Oregon is about forty miles southeast of the spot where 235 00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:11.559 the Jane Doe was found, and we finally decided we'd better get married to 236 00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:18.480 work. I was going to kill him driving that road. But yeah, 237 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:22.319 I'm driven that road, I don't know, five hundred times. It's a 238 00:21:22.359 --> 00:21:26.279 scary road. We drove it just yesterday and I just can't imagine that. 239 00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:33.160 Yeah, I can't imagine doing it drunk. Well I can't, yeah either, 240 00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:37.039 you know. Um, but when you're twenty one in bulletproof, you 241 00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:41.640 can do anything. I'm not saying I always drove a drunk and again, 242 00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:48.480 um, I have driven it after drinking a few um. But yeah, 243 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:53.319 and it used to be way different than it is now. The gravel was 244 00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:57.279 almost all of you remember all them curs, yes going down in there. 245 00:21:57.519 --> 00:22:03.519 Yeah, well that used to be growled. Oh man, that would be 246 00:22:03.640 --> 00:22:07.559 terrifying. Yeah, I could, I could tell you. Yeah, we 247 00:22:07.640 --> 00:22:11.960 used to see Barren Mount Lion and you know, everything on that road. 248 00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:18.319 I could probably tell you some stories about that road. But were there railing? 249 00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:23.119 Yes, it's treacherous winter, I can imagine. Were there railings everywhere 250 00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:26.960 when you were driving it back? Then? You mean guard a roll? 251 00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:37.480 Yeah? No, no, And and right at the bottom it just washed 252 00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:44.200 out last year, so that's a new bridge. This all just reinforces our 253 00:22:44.279 --> 00:22:48.279 thinking that if the Jane Doe is indeed Patty Otto and Ralph brought her here, 254 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:56.880 he had to have had help. But was this woman Patty? Patty 255 00:22:56.920 --> 00:23:00.759 Otto had blonde hair, was twenty four years old, five foot three, 256 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:06.039 and about one hundred and forty pounds. She was last seen wearing red pants 257 00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:11.079 and a white blouse. Everything about her seemed to be a remarkably close match 258 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:15.839 to the Jindoe, except for something else found in the grave that we haven't 259 00:23:15.880 --> 00:23:22.960 told you about, a fetus estimated to have been from the third trimester of 260 00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:49.160 pregnancy. When we first talked to Suzanne in early summer twenty twenty one, 261 00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:55.319 she had just recently seen the composite drawing a forensic artist made of what the 262 00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:59.920 Jaando probably looked like. So nobody in my family, they're all saying, 263 00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:03.319 Susanne, I see kind of a resemblance, but there's no way that's your 264 00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:06.400 mom. We would have known she's pregnant. There's no way she could have 265 00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:11.440 hid that. Susanne believes her mom could have easily hidden a pregnancy, especially 266 00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:15.680 because Susanne herself didn't look pregnant when she delivered one of her own babies, 267 00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:19.839 and if Patty had mixed feelings about getting pregnant while she and Ralph were having 268 00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:25.000 marital problems, she might have tried to hide her pregnancy for as long as 269 00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:30.359 possible. The medical examiner's report doesn't indicate that any of the clothing found at 270 00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:34.599 the scene was maternity style. That tells us that the woman may not have 271 00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:40.759 developed a visible baby bump. Yet the pants she was wearing were from a 272 00:24:40.759 --> 00:24:47.200 line of sportswear that was often made with stretchy polyester. Because more than one 273 00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:52.000 person told us that Patty struggled with her weight, we wonder could it be 274 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:55.759 because she was carrying a baby? Did she find out she was pregnant? 275 00:24:55.880 --> 00:24:59.279 Reconcile with my dad and then it's like, hey, I need to tell 276 00:24:59.319 --> 00:25:03.079 you I'm pregnant, and merriment not your baby, but her whole family insists 277 00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:15.200 no way. She was not pregnant. It's impossible. Nevertheless, on September 278 00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:21.799 first, nineteen seventy eight, exactly two years after Patty vanished, her parents 279 00:25:21.799 --> 00:25:25.880 flew with Tom Selene to a crime lab in Pendleton, Oregon, to look 280 00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:32.920 at the clothes found at the scene. When the O'Malley saw the clothing taken 281 00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:34.880 to the lab, they said they didn't think it was what Patty had been 282 00:25:34.880 --> 00:25:42.079 wearing when she vanished. None of the reports from Patty's disappearance described her blouse 283 00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:48.640 as a halter top, and the ankle high boots found at the scene looked 284 00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:56.319 more like men's work boots than the fashionable shoes Patty would have worn. Just 285 00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:59.920 to be clear, the boots weren't simply thrown into the grave with them. 286 00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:07.000 They were on her feet when she was buried. But there's no record to 287 00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:11.920 indicate the size of the boots. Maybe they weren't hers, maybe her killer 288 00:26:11.960 --> 00:26:21.720 put them on her feet. All we can do is speculate. The Oregon 289 00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:26.559 State Medical Examiner also compared Patty's dental records to the jawbones recovered at the scene 290 00:26:26.680 --> 00:26:33.119 and said they didn't match. He wrote in his notes that the Jane doe 291 00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:37.480 found near a Ruckel road had a number of fillings that didn't match Patty's most 292 00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:44.240 recent dental x rays. He also noted that one of the Jando's wisdom teeth 293 00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:49.839 was missing, but three others looked normal. However, in a memo the 294 00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:56.480 medical examiner wrote to one of the Oregan investigators explaining the comparison, he cited 295 00:26:56.519 --> 00:27:03.359 contradictory details. The memo said the Jando was missing three wisdom teeth, with 296 00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:11.319 one remaining maxillary molar. After seeing the composite drawing of what the Jando probably 297 00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:17.920 looked like, Suzanne looked at actual photos of the Jando's remains, particularly her 298 00:27:17.960 --> 00:27:25.480 skull, and became convinced that the unidentified woman is her mother. She talked 299 00:27:25.480 --> 00:27:30.279 to her own dentist to get his opinion. When she handed her mother's X 300 00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:33.960 ray film to the dentist, he remarked that the copy had been printed on 301 00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:40.759 the wrong side of the film. No one had noticed the error before because 302 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:47.039 otto the most identifiable word on the X ray is a palindrome, the letters 303 00:27:47.079 --> 00:27:52.079 are in the same order, even if they're written backward. He pointed to 304 00:27:52.119 --> 00:27:56.759 a letter in the corner of the film that indicates right and left. It 305 00:27:56.839 --> 00:28:03.559 was backward that could explain why the fillings in her X ray didn't match those 306 00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:08.279 of the Jane Doe. They appeared to be on the wrong side of the 307 00:28:08.359 --> 00:28:17.000 jaw. So I start getting dental records pictures of my mom. Comparing the 308 00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:21.039 pictures. I'm taking the teeth in those photos and I'm tracing them, and 309 00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:25.720 I have her X ray and I'm tracing them. This is my mother, 310 00:28:30.279 --> 00:28:37.799 but nobody's gonna believe me because it sounds too crazy. So I'm calling the 311 00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:42.160 police department to have them send dental records to Oregon. I want her compared 312 00:28:42.200 --> 00:28:45.759 again. This is my mother. I can tell I'm a nurse, not 313 00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:49.400 an odentologist, but I can tell these teeth belong to this body. I 314 00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:57.400 can see every variance in the teeth in the skeletal photos. The current Oregon 315 00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:03.920 State Forensic Anthropology looked at the photos of the Jane Doe and digital images of 316 00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:07.559 Patty's X rays and said she can't draw any conclusions based on the images alone, 317 00:29:10.920 --> 00:29:14.759 and she can't compare Patty's X rays to X rays taken of the Jane 318 00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:23.119 Doe's skull and teeth because they're missing, along with all the remains and evidence 319 00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:36.400 from the scene. After the medical examiner documented details of the case in nineteen 320 00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:40.640 seventy eight, the Jane Doo's remains were sent to a funeral home for storage 321 00:29:40.839 --> 00:29:47.839 until a positive identification could be made. Twelve years later, with the case 322 00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:52.559 still unsolved, the only evidence that might give us a clue about her identity 323 00:29:52.839 --> 00:29:57.079 was destroyed and the Jane Doe and her unborn baby's sculled to remains were sent 324 00:29:57.160 --> 00:30:03.880 to a crematorium. In an upcoming episode, we'll talk more about how all 325 00:30:03.880 --> 00:30:08.160 this unfolded. But you should know that after the cremation, even the cremated 326 00:30:08.200 --> 00:30:14.400 remains were lost, the paper trail of who had custody of the cremains went 327 00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:19.480 cold. Now she's missing again, missing twice. There's your podcast title. 328 00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:26.200 Yeah, how do you vanishing time? We talked to daale' mammon, who 329 00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:32.079 was the Union County District Attorney back in nineteen seventy eight. He went to 330 00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:34.880 the scene after the Jane Doe was found and watched over some of the work 331 00:30:34.920 --> 00:30:41.640 being done to unearth her. From what I understand, the remains and the 332 00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:47.440 any evidence that may have been found with her were later destroyed. Is that 333 00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:56.039 something that is typical. No, not in my opinion. Okay. And 334 00:30:56.160 --> 00:31:00.319 now sometimes all that they get missed play or get put on a shelf, 335 00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:08.000 but not not destroyed especially or something like this. So yeah, now that's 336 00:31:08.119 --> 00:31:15.160 that's a rather unusual phenomena that we'd find us in. Has this case just 337 00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:22.880 stayed with you over the years, Well, it's one that you remember more 338 00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:29.640 than more than the others. It's it's so many unknown, so many somebody's 339 00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:37.640 daughters was there, Um, somebody's grandchild was there. Mammon had not heard 340 00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:41.960 of the Patti Auto case until we told him about it. Well, and 341 00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:49.799 you know that's interesting because Lewiston is a back road where this is the northeast 342 00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:56.400 Oorian. There's one road that goes to Lewiston. Um, and if somebody 343 00:31:56.440 --> 00:32:00.720 were to get out of Lewiston and they would come into Enterprise and then on 344 00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:07.759 over towards the Grand Rude Valley, probably well, there's a couple of greedy 345 00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:13.559 old cabins or remnants of cabins on this area. So it was it's been 346 00:32:13.599 --> 00:32:22.119 an area of access for probably one hundred and fifty years. But I don't 347 00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:25.440 know, if you know, somebody were driving down one of the main cross 348 00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:30.079 mountain roads and said, oh, here's a here's that old road. Let 349 00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:34.599 me just take it and see where it goes. If they were going up 350 00:32:34.599 --> 00:32:39.279 the road to the Northern Northern League direction, it was within a couple of 351 00:32:39.319 --> 00:32:45.799 miles of basically civilization farming area. If they were coming from the other direction, 352 00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:52.480 from the north, from the Elgin Weston Highway, they say, whoops, 353 00:32:53.000 --> 00:32:58.480 almost out of the mountains, I better better do something. So it 354 00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:02.240 was clearly not a place close to a home where you know, somebody could 355 00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:07.359 have taken somebody, but there were no other reported deaths in the area. 356 00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:13.920 The Weston Elgin Highway Manon is referring to is a curvy two lane highway that 357 00:33:14.039 --> 00:33:20.240 takes drivers between the Oregon towns of Weston and Elgin. Weston is northwest of 358 00:33:20.279 --> 00:33:23.480 the site of the Jane Does Remains, and Elgin is a short distance southeast 359 00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:28.880 of the spot. To approach the site from the north, as Rob and 360 00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:32.200 his dad did back in nineteen seventy eight, you'd leave the highway just south 361 00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:37.599 of the Andes Prairie Snow Park and take a winding forest service road along miles 362 00:33:37.640 --> 00:33:44.200 of mountain ridges before reaching Rouco Road. It's another four miles or so down 363 00:33:44.279 --> 00:33:49.960 Rouco Road before reaching their campsite. To go the way Rob and his dad 364 00:33:50.039 --> 00:33:52.680 drove into the site back in nineteen seventy eight. It would be a shot 365 00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:57.480 in the dark to find that spot if you didn't know what you were doing. 366 00:33:59.319 --> 00:34:02.039 We explained to Mammon that Patty didn't appear to be pregnant when she disappeared 367 00:34:02.079 --> 00:34:07.440 in nineteen seventy six. In his mind, that doesn't rule herround as being 368 00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:13.960 the woman found in these hills. Many times, not many, but sometimes 369 00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:19.800 people and leugenerically termed it a full term Now you know, that could have 370 00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:28.719 been anywhere from three or four months up to you know skeleton. Um certainly 371 00:34:28.840 --> 00:34:32.880 wasn't scientific that it was a full term pregnancy. It's just the lay people 372 00:34:32.920 --> 00:34:37.880 there said, you know there was evidence of the fetus, right, so 373 00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:45.800 that that element does not bother me at all. Um m m. Interesting. 374 00:34:47.280 --> 00:35:04.679 What what happened to the husband any idea time on? Still, but 375 00:35:04.840 --> 00:35:07.800 we had to actually remove him, physically remove him from the area because he 376 00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:22.239 wouldn't stop working to locate the source of the smell. Anyone with information pertaining 377 00:35:22.280 --> 00:35:28.880 to the disappearance of Patricia Otto should contact the Lewiston Police Department's tipline at two 378 00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:35.039 zero eight two nine eight three nine three nine. Anyone with information pertaining to 379 00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:39.079 the identity of the Finland Creek Jane Doe or other information related to that case 380 00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:45.000 should contact the Union County District Attorney at DA at Union hyphen County dot org. 381 00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:51.280 If you, or anyone you know is a victim of domestic abuse, 382 00:35:51.639 --> 00:35:57.880 please contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at eight hundred seven nine nine. Safe 383 00:36:00.519 --> 00:36:07.400 STILL is a production with a Reporter's Notebook and Grayson Shaw Media. You can 384 00:36:07.400 --> 00:36:13.480 connect with us online at the Reporter's Notebook dot com or via email at info 385 00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:21.679 at the Reporter's Notebook dot com. Still was researched, written and produced by 386 00:36:21.800 --> 00:36:30.599 Karen Shaw Anderson. Additional research in script editing provided by Christine Hughes. Original 387 00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:39.960 music by Smith Uosso. I'm your host and associate producer Gary Anderson. Special 388 00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:45.719 thanks to everyone who graciously provided interviews and help with our research. We would 389 00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:51.639 specifically like to thank the advocates for Patricia Otto and the Finlay Creek Jindoe Task 390 00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:59.719 Force. Like Follow and subscribe to STILL on your favorite podcast platform, and 391 00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:07.079 follow us on Facebook or Twitter. To join the conversation. Ezekiel thirty four 392 00:37:07.239 --> 00:37:12.199 sixteen. I will seek the lost, and I will bring back the stray, 393 00:37:12.599 --> 00:37:15.119 and I will bind up the injured, and I will strengthen the weak