1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:08,279 We understand my free the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a 2 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:13,320 symbol, an idea. The population of atheist in this country is going through 3 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:19,039 the rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I 4 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:23,239 tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, not because I put 5 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,800 my hand on a book and made a wish and working together for a more 6 00:00:27,879 --> 00:00:32,000 rational world. Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness, 7 00:00:32,039 --> 00:00:36,840 truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. Assume nothing, 8 00:00:37,399 --> 00:00:46,240 question everything, and start thinking. This is the Thinking Atheist podcast hosted 9 00:00:46,479 --> 00:01:00,200 by Said Andrews. It is rare that I have a gassed back of the 10 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:04,079 show within a few months of that guest appearing beforehand. You know, I 11 00:01:04,079 --> 00:01:08,560 want to give everybody some breathing room. But I've been having conversations about conversations. 12 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,519 I've been going through some stuff in my own circle, and I've been 13 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:18,920 watching this big Joe Rogan dust up with RFK Junior and doctor Peter Hotez and 14 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:23,920 this sort of demand for debates, you know, abate for debate, debate 15 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,000 me or else kind of thing, and so I want to talk about discussions. 16 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,879 The first person I thought of was the guest I had had on earlier 17 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:37,159 this year. It's Melanie Trici King, who is an educator and she is 18 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:42,239 the founder of Thinking is power dot com. Melanie, so glad you came. 19 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,200 Thank you so much for having me on. It's really an honor. 20 00:01:45,519 --> 00:01:49,799 Okay, first, I'm want to start off with this whole ghost thing, 21 00:01:49,719 --> 00:01:55,359 and this is unrelated, but I love I would love to stay in a 22 00:01:55,400 --> 00:02:00,640 haunted house. I don't necessarily believe in ghost in spirits and apparition and phantoms, 23 00:02:00,719 --> 00:02:05,680 but I don't care. I've been watching your social media feed. You 24 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:10,159 have stayed or have been staying in a haunted house or houses plural. What's 25 00:02:10,159 --> 00:02:16,719 that about? So that was such a fun opportunity. I have a good 26 00:02:16,719 --> 00:02:23,960 friend Kenny Biddle, who is the world's only full time paranormal investigator at the 27 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:28,280 Center for Inquiry, and he actually used to be a pardon the air quotes, 28 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,199 but a ghost hunter, like the TV kind that you would see. 29 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:37,960 And wanted to go stay with him, and he mentioned staying in a haunted 30 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:38,759 house, and I said, you know, I want to see what a 31 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:43,840 ghost hunt looks like. No, I want to see what a paranormal investigation 32 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,560 looks like and how that's different than a ghost hunt. And so there's a 33 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:53,199 supposed haunted house out there. It's called the Hinsdale House in rural western New 34 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:58,120 York. And we runted the house for the evening and my husband and Kenny 35 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,000 and I spent the night in the house and had a nice tour of it, 36 00:03:02,599 --> 00:03:08,319 heard the ghost stories from the person who was letting us in the Actually 37 00:03:08,319 --> 00:03:13,840 the forest was supposedly haunted too, so we went up into the forest to 38 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,039 check things out. The story goes in the nineteenth century, early nineteenth century, 39 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:21,240 there was a pair of brothers that again this is according to Lare, 40 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:28,360 but they were on the stagecount coach route and they robbed and murdered on nearly 41 00:03:28,479 --> 00:03:34,319 ninety people and buried them on the grounds. And in the seventies there was 42 00:03:34,319 --> 00:03:38,159 a family that lived there and they reported all kinds of paranormal experiences and even 43 00:03:38,199 --> 00:03:40,360 had a priest come in and give an exorcism of the house. And since 44 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:45,479 then no one's lived there, but it's been a place where people have gone 45 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:51,639 to experience paranormal sightings. Okay, well, I'd be forgive the digression, 46 00:03:51,719 --> 00:03:54,919 but I love ghosts. I would love to stay the night in one of 47 00:03:54,919 --> 00:03:58,680 the I hate the word murder house, but that's kind of what a few 48 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,719 of them are. Maybe it's tacky, you know, where someone some horrible 49 00:04:01,759 --> 00:04:04,639 thing happened and now they you know, they hang a shingle out front and 50 00:04:04,759 --> 00:04:09,439 stay for only four unit box you can sleep over. I mean, maybe 51 00:04:09,479 --> 00:04:12,919 that's tacky, but I would I would kind of do that, Okay, 52 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,160 I wouldn't talked a little bit about it. I want to start here before 53 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:20,639 we get into rogue and everybody else. I think you posted something on thinking 54 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:25,759 aspower dot com, or on the web page or on the Facebook page rather 55 00:04:26,879 --> 00:04:31,040 about the world being gray. Yeah. My graduate professor used to always say 56 00:04:31,079 --> 00:04:33,920 that the world wasn't black or white, it was shades of gray. And 57 00:04:34,439 --> 00:04:40,680 that's really struck me and stayed with me. So, um, binary thinking 58 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:46,600 is simple, it's easy, it's seductive. It's clear this or that. 59 00:04:46,639 --> 00:04:51,000 You can be confident in certain in what you think that you know. Reality 60 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:58,040 doesn't work that way. There's lots of shades of gray. And so one 61 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:02,560 of the first things with critical thinking is to get students to and I say 62 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:08,439 this all because I'm an educator, but to get students to understand that knowledge 63 00:05:08,439 --> 00:05:11,160 isn't black or white. It's not like you know something or you don't know 64 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,560 something. I mean, certainly some things are more certain than others. But 65 00:05:14,759 --> 00:05:18,079 literally put on a spectrum, start with this is what I think is true 66 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:24,639 zero two hundred percent? How sure am I that that is true? And 67 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:29,399 then get them to understand that those extremes are probably something that we want to 68 00:05:29,399 --> 00:05:33,519 avoid, so scoochy in and then with new evidence be able to move how 69 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:41,920 certain we think that that conclusion is. And a lot of extremists tend to 70 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,800 see the world in these black or white terms, and then they add in 71 00:05:45,879 --> 00:05:53,279 tribalism us in them good bad, black or white. Where if we want 72 00:05:53,319 --> 00:05:58,519 to solve problems, it behooves us to understand them, and to understand them, 73 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,079 we have to realize that it's not that simple. Right the other team, 74 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,720 the other side, might be right about something, we might be partly 75 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:10,199 wrong about something. It is almost certainly true that you're not absolutely right about 76 00:06:10,199 --> 00:06:13,480 everything. So the question is what is it? And it starts with not 77 00:06:13,519 --> 00:06:17,680 being so confident in what you think you know. Yeah, but isn't there's 78 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,879 something that we can be confident about? Right now? There are people hammering 79 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:29,560 out the angry email. Right, I am confident that Nazis are bad and 80 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:34,439 that what they represent is evil or awful or horrible. So I mean, 81 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:38,199 are there times when you do draw the line and say, you know I 82 00:06:38,639 --> 00:06:43,120 am right, that I can say that with confidence? I mean, yeah, 83 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,879 the joke that I give my students in class is always what we could 84 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:51,639 be living in the matrix. Right, So it is true that there are 85 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:55,759 some things that I are much more confident in others. Look, Nazis bad, 86 00:06:55,959 --> 00:07:01,199 Yes, I'm confident about that, but most situations not that. Oftentimes, 87 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:05,800 and again not always, but oftentimes that's used to shut down a conversation 88 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:12,360 by associating someone with Nazis or Hitler. It's an easy way to not have 89 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,839 to make a coaching argument, and so it's mostly a cop out. There 90 00:07:16,879 --> 00:07:21,279 are times where it would absolutely apply, but I think that if you have 91 00:07:21,439 --> 00:07:26,399 to get to that point, then it's probably not a conversation worth continuing anyway. 92 00:07:26,759 --> 00:07:30,519 Well, you know, we do it because we need the other to 93 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,680 be the worst. And here's an example. We had a massive storm with 94 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:41,040 one hundred mile an hour winds blowing through at midnight one night. It knocked 95 00:07:41,079 --> 00:07:46,879 out power in two hundred thousand homes. We had one hundred million dollars worth 96 00:07:46,879 --> 00:07:50,399 of damage. We had buildings destroyed, trees ripped down from the roots, 97 00:07:50,439 --> 00:07:54,480 and it was just crazy. And I had some damage at our home. 98 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:58,360 We had this privacy fence and it blew the fence over a big portion of 99 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:03,480 the fence. Well, my name is over here. He is a maga 100 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:09,120 conservative Republican, I mean, just right out of the book, right off 101 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:13,199 of Fox News, right. But he saw that my fence was down. 102 00:08:13,959 --> 00:08:16,959 He said, you know, I can't work today. I got the whole 103 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:20,000 day. You know, I'm doing nothing else. Looks like you could use 104 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:24,439 a hand. Let me grab some tools and let me come over and we'll 105 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,319 fix your fence today. And that guy spent all day in ninety three degrees 106 00:08:28,439 --> 00:08:33,639 side by side with me to solve my problem. And it wasn't about politics. 107 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:39,080 We didn't speak about our philosophies about the world. He was just demonstrating 108 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:43,919 goodness. Now, if I had seen him on paper right right, weighing 109 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:50,639 evangelical, maga conservative, I might have written him off wholesale. Yeah, 110 00:08:50,639 --> 00:08:56,559 so there's a lot in there. I'm reminded of the Burnee Brown quote. 111 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:58,120 I don't know if you're familiar with Burnee Brown, but she says something to 112 00:08:58,159 --> 00:09:03,360 the effective people are hard to hate up close, So move in and online 113 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:09,000 there's there's a separation, right, there's a distance. You're almost anonymous, 114 00:09:09,039 --> 00:09:11,919 you know, behind a keyboard, and so people display behaviors that they wouldn't 115 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,279 in real life. But actually I'm reminded of I don't know if you're familiar 116 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:22,360 with Henri taj Fail's work from the mid twentieth century on group dynamics, and 117 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:31,559 he was a product of the Holocaust, and he saw how horrible the Germans 118 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:35,120 had treated the Nazis had treated the Jews, and so he set up some 119 00:09:35,159 --> 00:09:39,720 experiments to try to figure out it was clearly in us versus them, but 120 00:09:39,919 --> 00:09:46,519 how how different do groups have to be before one group will start to discriminate 121 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:52,679 against the other group. So he had people in and he randomly gave them 122 00:09:52,159 --> 00:09:56,840 a series of dots on a screen and asked them to estimate how many dots 123 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:03,279 were on the screen. And then he grouped the into either overestimators or underestimators. 124 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:07,200 And his goal was to figure out, if I established this minimal group 125 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,960 paradigm, how many more layers will I have to go before I get to 126 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:16,039 a point where they will start to discriminate against the other group. And the 127 00:10:16,039 --> 00:10:20,720 twist and the experiment was that he randomly assigned the groups to over underestimators. 128 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,720 So even as something is venal as how many dots are on a screen, 129 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:28,960 they were still randomly assigned to this group or that group. And he found 130 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:33,279 that even at that condition, the groups would discriminate against each other. They 131 00:10:33,279 --> 00:10:37,480 would actually take less for their group if it meant the difference between the two 132 00:10:37,519 --> 00:10:43,000 groups was greater. So it is now called the minimal group paradigm. And 133 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:48,000 to me, what this says, and what I see in your story is 134 00:10:48,039 --> 00:10:52,720 that we have our tribes based on our identities. We have our groups based 135 00:10:52,799 --> 00:10:56,279 on shared characteristics that we think are important. But as soon as those groups 136 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:03,559 change, as soon as we establish shared identity, then we can connect there 137 00:11:03,639 --> 00:11:09,759 and be on the same team. I'm working on a speech about identity beliefs, 138 00:11:09,759 --> 00:11:13,519 something I'm probably going to take on the road in the winter time or 139 00:11:13,519 --> 00:11:18,759 maybe a first part of next year. But it gets into you know, 140 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:26,799 whether it's flat earth societies or the anti vax communities, or even religious beliefs, 141 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:33,879 denominations or faith expressions and how you know there is a sense of social 142 00:11:33,919 --> 00:11:41,200 bonding that might actually trump the ideas themselves. Right. The ideas may be 143 00:11:41,279 --> 00:11:46,000 important, but it's in many ways more important to belong. When you get 144 00:11:46,039 --> 00:11:50,399 paid, you get that feeling of family, you get support and security, 145 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,799 they've got your backs, you feel superior as you do battle against the other. 146 00:11:54,919 --> 00:12:00,440 I'm interested in the social aspects of identity beliefs. You want to that 147 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:05,399 in more depth for just second. Yeah, so you mentioned like the flat 148 00:12:05,399 --> 00:12:09,799 Earthers in particular. It's really fascinating too. I don't know if he's seen 149 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:16,120 the documentary Behind the Curve, Okay, wonderful. The main character in that 150 00:12:16,159 --> 00:12:20,559 story, who is like the big guy in the flat Earth community. You 151 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,600 kind of see him throughout, and by the end it's clear that he gets 152 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,840 so much social reward from being not only in that group, but a member 153 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:33,039 of that group that is able to articulate the best arguments for their position, 154 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:37,399 that he gets rewarded for it, and that's really hard to give up. 155 00:12:37,919 --> 00:12:46,080 I personally have noticed that it is harder to disagree with my tribe on issues 156 00:12:46,159 --> 00:12:50,360 than it is to disagree with the other tribe. And I kind of I 157 00:12:50,399 --> 00:12:52,639 kind of feel like a coward when it comes to some of it, because 158 00:12:52,639 --> 00:12:56,679 there are things that I think my tribe aren't quite right on that I would 159 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:00,360 like to speak out on, but I am scared, so I don't do 160 00:13:00,399 --> 00:13:05,159 it. That said, when you've got someone like flat earthers, I mean, 161 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,399 that's really easy to mock. But the more someone is mocked for a 162 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:13,720 belief, the more they're going to dig in and actually the part of their 163 00:13:13,799 --> 00:13:18,159 brain. Brain scans show that the part of the brain that is activated when 164 00:13:18,159 --> 00:13:24,639 there's a physical threat is actually activated when it's a personal belief, A close 165 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:31,159 identity belief is attached, is attacked in some way. When I cover this 166 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,360 with my students, I play this fun game and I'll say, okay, 167 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:37,960 how many species of elephants are there? Right? And you see, I 168 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,320 don't know. Most students have never thought about that, right, And they'll 169 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,399 come up with an answer. I'm like, well, how sure are you 170 00:13:43,519 --> 00:13:46,759 right? So proportionate? Again, how would you feel if you were wrong? 171 00:13:48,519 --> 00:13:50,720 I don't know, So I tell them there's, well, there's three 172 00:13:50,759 --> 00:13:52,600 species of elephants, right, There's a two species of African elephant now, 173 00:13:52,639 --> 00:13:56,240 and there's an Asian species of elephant. Okay, how do you feel that 174 00:13:56,279 --> 00:14:05,440 you're wrong? Nobody came years and imagine feeling that same way about any of 175 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:11,120 these identity beliefs, these beliefs that hold our social groups together. Imagine being 176 00:14:11,159 --> 00:14:15,279 told that one of those really foundational beliefs is wrong and caring just as much 177 00:14:15,279 --> 00:14:18,240 as you care about not knowing how many species of elephent there are. We 178 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,200 would be able to change our minds, we'd be able to grow and align 179 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:24,200 our beliefs with what's true. But instead, what we do is we attach 180 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:30,759 our self esteem and our group membership, and our tribe self esteem to those 181 00:14:30,799 --> 00:14:35,440 beliefs, and so we literally tribe Trump's truth. We care more about our 182 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:43,039 social standing than we do about the truth. It's interesting to me I read 183 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:48,039 an article a couple of years ago that was talking about our online interactions because 184 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:52,639 I can get my snark on, especially with the high profile players. You 185 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:58,879 know, I like going I think there is merit in going after the franchise 186 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:05,600 players of awfulness, the people taking themselves way too seriously, doing a tremendous 187 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:07,759 amount of damage. I like the idea of trying to knock them down a 188 00:15:07,759 --> 00:15:11,559 few pegs to let them know that many of us don't take them seriously. 189 00:15:11,679 --> 00:15:16,679 I handle the one on ones with the every day interlocket much much differently. 190 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,440 Maybe that's me rationalizing. I don't know, but I saw somebody and they 191 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,120 were saying, you know, especially online, all you have to do to 192 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:31,320 feel like a good person these days is to broadcast a good opinion. Right, 193 00:15:31,919 --> 00:15:35,320 All I have to do is go on Twitter and say some noble thing, 194 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:39,360 and now I'm a good person. It seems like kind of a cheap 195 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,879 way to achieve personal nobility. I might be an awful person in my regular 196 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:48,320 life the way I treat people, but if I'm not broadcasting my nobility, 197 00:15:48,679 --> 00:15:52,320 if i give you the correct opinion, that makes me a good person. 198 00:15:52,759 --> 00:15:56,519 And the Internet is really really fed into that model. You want to speak 199 00:15:56,559 --> 00:16:04,200 to that at all. Yeah, we certainly portray ourselves differently online, or 200 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:10,120 many of us do, than we are in real life. I will the 201 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:14,080 snark thing is funny because I try really really hard not to be snarky, 202 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:18,159 but every once in a while it gets the best of me. But more 203 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,960 often, like there's I have a filter, and I know how tired I 204 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:26,720 am because it's how far down is that filter? Like it's sort of creaking, 205 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:33,000 like like there's a would they call that the ID? I don't know. 206 00:16:33,039 --> 00:16:37,879 There's something deep down that wants to crawl out and literally crawl into the 207 00:16:37,919 --> 00:16:41,240 culture. But you have to repress it, right, You have to prepare, 208 00:16:41,279 --> 00:16:45,799 You have to civilize yourself, Melanie, right too. And I try 209 00:16:45,879 --> 00:16:48,919 really hard, um, and I notice myself when when I'm like, you 210 00:16:48,919 --> 00:16:51,799 know what, I can't hold this back anymore, and I'm about ready to 211 00:16:51,879 --> 00:16:55,440 hit send and I'll say something. I'll know enough to say something to my 212 00:16:55,559 --> 00:16:56,759 husband, and you know what, why don't you wait till the morning to 213 00:16:56,799 --> 00:17:02,279 do that? Okay, that's will be fair, because I know the snark 214 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:06,240 makes me feel good, and I know there are times where the person that 215 00:17:06,279 --> 00:17:11,839 I'm giving the snark too, I think objectively deserves the snark. However, 216 00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:17,599 there's a whole mass of people who are watching, and they are going to 217 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:23,079 fall somewhere along the spectrum. And if they are more closely to the person 218 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:30,160 that I might snark against, if that grammar was correct, if they're more 219 00:17:30,319 --> 00:17:36,759 closely tied to that, they're gonna see that more's attack on them and I 220 00:17:36,839 --> 00:17:41,279 might lose them. So my goal is to hit the people in the middle 221 00:17:41,519 --> 00:17:45,880 that are probably just watching, they're they're spectators in this, and they're influenced 222 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,440 by the behaviors and the arguments of the people. At least this is the 223 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:55,440 optimist in me thinks this. And so by holding back the snark and by 224 00:17:55,519 --> 00:17:59,880 by doing what I think is probably the more say, grown up Melanie way 225 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:03,400 of dealing with it, hopefully I do more. I've been working on myself. 226 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,599 This is a little bit of a setup because I wanted to tell this 227 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:11,480 story. But I've gotten weary, you know. I I've gotten weary because 228 00:18:11,519 --> 00:18:15,359 so little seems to come of it, especially when it comes to just regular 229 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,519 people. Oh I disagree with you. No you're wrong, No you're doubly 230 00:18:18,559 --> 00:18:22,680 wrong. Oh yeah, Well all my people say that they agree with me. 231 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,319 Oh yeah, my people disagree and they agree with me. Well, 232 00:18:26,319 --> 00:18:29,319 now I'm going to insult you more, and I'm gonna block you, and 233 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,920 I'm gonna screenshot the block, and I'm gonna screenshot the block of the block, 234 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:37,400 and I'm going to write a blog response blog video response video. It's 235 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:42,079 just insane. Only escalation, right, only escalation. Nothing gets resolved. 236 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:48,240 So I'd said something on my own social media page about something, and a 237 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:52,039 public figure that I really admire jumped in and said something kind of snarky. 238 00:18:52,079 --> 00:18:56,599 He disagreed, and he came in and kind of nuked me from orbit, 239 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,880 you know, and not too bad a way, but he was definitely snarking. 240 00:19:00,519 --> 00:19:03,559 And I had that moment where I thought, I just want to go 241 00:19:03,599 --> 00:19:06,519 in and engage, right. I want to go in. I want to 242 00:19:06,519 --> 00:19:08,640 be snarky back. I want to be clever. I want people to tell 243 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,440 me I'm clever. I want to get that payoff. But I did the 244 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,720 same thing, like, I just took a breath and I said, all 245 00:19:15,799 --> 00:19:19,920 right, And because I've been working on myself, I'm in the middle of 246 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:25,559 a journey and a process as to how I might improve some of how I 247 00:19:25,599 --> 00:19:29,799 operate, I decided I'm going to try something else. And I said, 248 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,039 thanks for jumping in here. Please know my intent was not that. My 249 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:40,599 intent actually is this because I have legitimate concern. I love your work, 250 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,559 by the way, and I appreciate you very much. You are smart and 251 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,279 funny, and I will continue to be a fan. And I might be 252 00:19:48,319 --> 00:19:51,440 wrong on this. It won't be the first time I've been wrong, but 253 00:19:51,759 --> 00:19:53,799 just no, this is my intent. This is where I came from. 254 00:19:55,480 --> 00:20:00,480 And when he finally reappeared, he didn't come back to up the auntie, 255 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:06,680 he didn't double down. Everything a de escalated and we began an exchange which 256 00:20:06,759 --> 00:20:11,000 was productive and thoughtful and filled with goodwill. Right, And I'll tell you 257 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:15,839 the payoff for that was a hell of a lot more intense than it was 258 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:22,880 for me throwing out some zinger or shooting a meme his way instead. I 259 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,480 mean, I really felt the rush. I still feel it now. It 260 00:20:25,599 --> 00:20:29,400 felt good to try to build that bridge, and then I thought it is 261 00:20:29,559 --> 00:20:33,160 possible, and other people saw that it was possible. So I just wanted 262 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:37,000 to tell that story. Maybe it's selfish to take up the airtime to provide 263 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,279 that case study melody, but that's where I'm at anyway. No, that's 264 00:20:41,319 --> 00:20:45,880 brilliant. And back to when I know that my filter has worn down and 265 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:51,359 I really shouldn't press reply ors and in the morning I always feel better that 266 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:57,279 I didn't. And when I have mustered the courage to be humble in public 267 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:03,119 like that and demonstrate kindness in the face of someone who might have been a 268 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:07,799 bit snarky at me, it always pays off in the end, and not 269 00:21:07,839 --> 00:21:11,440 just for myself, but I see it in other commenters as well. Okay, 270 00:21:11,559 --> 00:21:15,640 I'm not saying I'm perfect on this because I do like to get in 271 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:22,240 there and stir the pot. High profile types. I mean, Superintendent of 272 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:29,880 Public Education Ryan Walters in Oaklahomy is just on my list. Marjorie Taylor Green, 273 00:21:30,079 --> 00:21:36,359 It's on my list, damn it. Okay, Finally, after twenty 274 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:41,319 minutes of talking about other things, I'm going to get into this RFK Joe 275 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:47,480 Rogan, doctor Peter Hotez thing, the big dust up on Twitter that's making 276 00:21:47,599 --> 00:21:57,720 worldwide headlines. We'll talk about it with my special guests next. I'm talking 277 00:21:57,759 --> 00:22:02,519 here with Melody Tree, he said king. She is an educator and the 278 00:22:02,599 --> 00:22:11,119 founder of Thinking is Power dot com. Joe Rogan the most popular podcaster on 279 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:18,559 Spotify. It's got like eleven million listeners for every freaking episode he does, 280 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:27,160 has RFK Junior on RFK Junior running for presidents, and is just a conspiracy 281 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:33,839 nutbark, I mean just whacky whacky. Believes he thinks that anti depressants are 282 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:38,640 responsible for mass shootings. He thinks that the CIA was behind the assassination of 283 00:22:38,759 --> 00:22:45,440 JFK, and he's a big anti vaccer and he's got crazy, crazy ideas. 284 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:52,200 And so doctor Peter Hotez, who was an actual vaccine scientist, comes 285 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,480 forward and says, beware misinformation. He doesn't know what the hell he's talking 286 00:22:56,519 --> 00:23:00,559 about. Joe Rogan says, oh, yeah, I will donate one hundred 287 00:23:00,599 --> 00:23:04,720 thousand dollars to the charity of your choice if you will come on my show 288 00:23:04,759 --> 00:23:11,119 to debate RFK Junior. No time limit, you know, mono imano. 289 00:23:11,279 --> 00:23:15,799 Let's have it out right here, and doctor Hotez said, heil, no, 290 00:23:17,039 --> 00:23:21,279 this is not the forum. If you want to talk personally, Joe, 291 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:23,519 I'll give you my cell. I think he actually said that, I'll 292 00:23:23,559 --> 00:23:26,240 give you my number. We can have a conversation, but I'm not going 293 00:23:26,279 --> 00:23:30,079 to go and be a part of a circus. And people have come after 294 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:36,720 doctor Hotez calling him a coward. All right, you're afraid to debate. 295 00:23:36,759 --> 00:23:41,160 What are you afraid of? Why not present the information? So the reason 296 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,960 I bring all this up is that you and I align on this. We 297 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,559 don't think doctor Hotez should step into that ring. Would you agree with that 298 00:23:49,319 --> 00:23:56,319 totally? And why? Because that would not be a science debate. And 299 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,759 let's be clear about this. So the word debate means different things to different 300 00:24:00,759 --> 00:24:08,640 people. Scientists are trained to debate scientists. The process of science is a 301 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:15,240 collection and evaluation of evidence. As a community, you have to submit your 302 00:24:15,279 --> 00:24:18,759 findings to other researchers who have to try and check you, and they're all 303 00:24:18,799 --> 00:24:22,240 trying to prove each other wrong. It is cutthroat. Scientists do not like 304 00:24:22,319 --> 00:24:27,200 to agree. That's one of the main misconception I think of science I see 305 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,680 is that people think that science is like a democracy, a group think, 306 00:24:30,839 --> 00:24:34,000 and nothing could be further from the truth. The way you make a name 307 00:24:34,039 --> 00:24:38,160 for yourself in science is to say all of this evidence we have is wrong, 308 00:24:38,839 --> 00:24:42,240 and I know that because here's the evidence. Now. That is a 309 00:24:42,279 --> 00:24:47,640 science debate. What Rogan is after is one of those Internet type debates where 310 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:53,000 it's a no holds barred and it's who can who can defeat somebody else and 311 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:59,720 beat them into submission. And that's not how science works. This issue has 312 00:24:59,759 --> 00:25:04,200 been and debated in the scientific community, and Hotez is on the side of 313 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:14,839 science. Rogan and Kennedy just want a platform to air conspiratorial and unsupported beliefs 314 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,000 to a public who doesn't understand the difference. And this is one of my 315 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,880 soapboxes. So if you just want to shut me up at some point, 316 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:27,119 tell me to shut up. So people don't understand how science works, and 317 00:25:27,319 --> 00:25:30,720 part of it, to my mind, comes from how we teach it. 318 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:34,680 We teach science like, here's a scientific method, and it's a series of 319 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,559 steps, and at the end you did a science and then you prove something 320 00:25:37,559 --> 00:25:41,119 to be true. And then here's all these facts that we've learned from science. 321 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,799 And certainly there are interesting things that we've come we've learned from the process 322 00:25:44,799 --> 00:25:48,160 of science. The scientific method does not work like that. There is no 323 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,720 single scientific method, and so to present it that way is misleading at best. 324 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,039 But also science isn't a body of facts. We learn things from the 325 00:25:57,079 --> 00:26:00,079 process of science. But fact can change. I mean, when I was 326 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:06,039 in college, Pluto was a planet. There was no such thing as epigenetics. 327 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:10,039 There was five kingdoms instead of three domains, and a series of community 328 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:15,839 kingdoms under them. Facts change. There's nothing set in stone about facts. 329 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,599 Some of them are more supportive than others and are much less likely to change. 330 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,160 But the point of that is that all of that is a process of 331 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,880 how we learned those things. That is the process of science and the process 332 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,200 of scientists debating. So when the community comes out at the other end and 333 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:36,119 says, here's what we know, here's my problem, here's what we know. 334 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:41,119 Is great, but we've now trained the public to think that what they 335 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,960 know is set in stone. It's a series of facts and over the pandemic 336 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,359 in particular, we all saw the process of science play out in real time. 337 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,519 We had a new virus, we had a new vaccine, we had 338 00:26:52,079 --> 00:26:56,440 a set of shifting recommendations based on that science. Right, science is what 339 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,039 do we know? And then what should we do with it? That's policy, 340 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,799 and good policy should be based on science. But all of that was 341 00:27:02,839 --> 00:27:06,759 shifting as we learned, and none of us are perfect. Right, what 342 00:27:06,799 --> 00:27:10,559 we're trying to do is get to a better outcome in the end. But 343 00:27:10,599 --> 00:27:15,920 then people felt like science was always changing their mind. They which is a 344 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,759 good thing, and of course they do. They'll say, well they're not 345 00:27:18,799 --> 00:27:22,759 sure. Well, you know what, we're never really confident about everything. 346 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,680 But the public didn't understand any of that. And worse, I think because 347 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:33,799 they didn't understand the process of science, and the pandemic got politicized so early 348 00:27:33,519 --> 00:27:38,400 that people went back to their tribes. They went back to the group that 349 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:47,240 they trusted the most. And unfortunately, once it becomes politicized, then your 350 00:27:47,279 --> 00:27:49,240 identity becomes attached to it. It's much less a harder to change your mind, 351 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,640 like we just talked about. So, if we're talking about having a 352 00:27:53,720 --> 00:28:00,000 debate, I personally would love to see scientists do a better job of communicating 353 00:28:00,039 --> 00:28:03,359 to the public what science is. As science educators, I think we could 354 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:08,680 do a better job of helping our students understand how the process of science works. 355 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:14,400 But the whole point is epistemology. It is how do we know what 356 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:21,039 we know? And what I would like to see? Even if Gosh, 357 00:28:21,079 --> 00:28:25,680 I don't think this would be appropriate for Kennedy and for our hotels. But 358 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:32,559 the better question is how do the different How does science know what it knows 359 00:28:32,559 --> 00:28:37,079 about vaccines? That I think is a much better conversation to have. Then 360 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,240 here's all the evidence, because what you have is people finding sites based on 361 00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:45,640 who they trust, and unfortunately, some people have put their trust in places 362 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,200 that do not deserve it. Well. I think one of the big concerns 363 00:28:48,279 --> 00:28:53,599 that I have and many have, is that that kind of theater often lends 364 00:28:53,599 --> 00:28:59,000 itself the style over substance. I mean, doctor Hotez goes in and gets 365 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,880 into the minute right of how vaccines work, blah blah blah, and he 366 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,880 starts to go down the tier of layers into the history of vaccines and how 367 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,680 everything's peer reviewed and tested and blah blah blah, and people are just gonna 368 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,319 wink out, right. I mean, they're not tuning into Joe Rogan because 369 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:22,000 they're ready for a deep science lecture. They want theater, right, they 370 00:29:22,039 --> 00:29:25,960 want to see an MMA match in some ways. And so then OURFK Junior 371 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,680 is able to just smooth talk and sell and do his thing, and if 372 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,960 you look at it only at the surface level, he might come off like 373 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,880 he won. And I just don't know if that's a serious. Plus, 374 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:41,640 I hate the whole bating thing. You know, to debate me or else. 375 00:29:41,039 --> 00:29:45,240 Here's some money, I'll put it up for grabs. Are you a 376 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,200 coward? What are you afraid of? That kind of thing? Really? 377 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,759 I see it on my channel. I'll get theists to drop me a line 378 00:29:51,799 --> 00:29:56,680 and say, debate me coward. I'm like, is this how someone approaches 379 00:29:56,799 --> 00:30:00,119 someone else in good faith to have a conversation about the things matter. I 380 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,759 just don't buy it, you know, I don't think that Rogan is the 381 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:10,240 forum for this kind of discussion. Yeah, I mean, in the process 382 00:30:10,319 --> 00:30:14,079 of science, scientists are taught to argue. So a good argument for a 383 00:30:14,119 --> 00:30:17,359 scientist is going to be different than something that you probably hear on Rogan. 384 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,240 And that gets back to the nature of debate. A debate, in Rogan's 385 00:30:21,359 --> 00:30:25,799 terms, is a shouting match where you know, no holds barred. There's 386 00:30:25,839 --> 00:30:30,440 ad hominems and strawman and red herrings and you know, fallacies galore, Whereas 387 00:30:30,519 --> 00:30:37,599 in Hotez's world, those kinds of things aren't tolerated. They're not valid responses 388 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,279 to an argument, and so it's not even that that's not even debating. 389 00:30:41,799 --> 00:30:48,559 And so scientists are taught to do that as opposed to um as opposed to 390 00:30:48,599 --> 00:30:52,960 doing what Rogan is doing. One more thing there, which is that scientists 391 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,559 are taught to be dispassionate and the you don't want to attach your identity to 392 00:30:56,599 --> 00:31:00,559 your beliefs because you're you're trying to prove yourself right. You have to subject 393 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,960 your findings to other people. It is not fun, but it gets to 394 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:10,240 a better outcome. Ironically, I see a lot of and I'm stereotyping here, 395 00:31:10,279 --> 00:31:12,359 but the logic bros who are always calling for these kinds of debates and 396 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:17,160 so on, like to talk about how well facts don't care about your feelings 397 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,599 and you just need to be more logical about this, when in reality, 398 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:26,720 the emotional side, and this is Rogan side, it is not Hotez's side. 399 00:31:26,079 --> 00:31:30,359 And in a debate, in a debate between these two, that's why 400 00:31:30,519 --> 00:31:33,640 somebody like Kennedy might win is playing two emotions. You may not realize it. 401 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,839 And the more you are in denial about the role of your emotions in 402 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:42,160 your thought processes, the more susceptible you are to them. That's how Kennedy 403 00:31:42,279 --> 00:31:47,920 is going to win as opposed to Hotez's side. Well, it's also talk 404 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:52,359 about an example of personal Now we've got everybody online who's gone after this good 405 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,960 man who's committed decades of his life to science. It's very Fauci asked, 406 00:31:57,039 --> 00:32:00,400 you know, the way they've gone after him, vilified him. Now they're 407 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:07,079 making accusations that he's just a you know, he's making chillionaire bucks for big 408 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,960 Pharma, all right, he's worth a ton of money, and therefore he's 409 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:15,440 not credible. You've addressed those on the thinking as power pages, have you 410 00:32:15,519 --> 00:32:20,519 not? Yeah? I have, And you know, I half joked with 411 00:32:20,599 --> 00:32:22,880 my husband recently, like, hey, kids, go in science, Look 412 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:28,519 how well you'll be treating When I think about it, you know, a 413 00:32:28,519 --> 00:32:32,200 seven figure, eight figure incomes. Science is normally not the first field that 414 00:32:32,279 --> 00:32:36,559 comes to mind. Oh my god. And the scientists that I know are 415 00:32:36,599 --> 00:32:40,039 like driving hondas and they're paying off student loans. Right, there's there's a 416 00:32:40,079 --> 00:32:44,480 few scientists that have made some money, to be sure, but yeah, 417 00:32:44,519 --> 00:32:49,119 so um a few. About a week ago, what came out was that 418 00:32:49,839 --> 00:32:53,079 Hotez was worth thirty five million dollars. And it's from a site that I 419 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,720 still I've been waiting for it to be fact checked and I haven't seen it. 420 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,240 It's only the claim has only come from one site that doesn't to be 421 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,519 a reliable site. But even if we say that's true, so are we 422 00:33:02,599 --> 00:33:07,160 saying that because somebody is worth thirty five million dollars, they're not trustworthy? 423 00:33:07,759 --> 00:33:10,880 Okay, Well I checked, and Kennedy is worth at least fifty million, 424 00:33:12,039 --> 00:33:15,599 and Rogan is worth like one hundred and twenty million so are they not credible 425 00:33:15,759 --> 00:33:22,240 because they are worth more money? So the standards don't seem to apply equally 426 00:33:22,359 --> 00:33:27,440 to all sides in this debate. Here, well, we've also got people 427 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:32,480 showing up a poor doctor Houtz's run door. People are just showing up at 428 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:37,160 his house, and I don't get it, Like, when did this become 429 00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:44,599 such a personal thing. I would feel threatened if somebody was on my property 430 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:51,039 after being called out in front of the world by arguably the planet's most popular 431 00:33:51,119 --> 00:33:54,799 podcaster. I mean, it all seems like it's a powder kig that could 432 00:33:54,839 --> 00:34:00,359 blow up at any moment. Yeah, it's really heartbreaking and quite frankly, 433 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,160 I mean this is anecdotal, but I don't know if there's any studies to 434 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:07,839 document this. I know a lot of scientists and they have folders of hate 435 00:34:07,839 --> 00:34:12,079 mail and death threats. I mean, this is obviously what's happening to Hotez 436 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,320 is an extreme version, as was what happened to Fauji, but it's not 437 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:22,000 uncommon. I saw recently. Actually there's a weatherman in a meteorologist in Iowa 438 00:34:22,119 --> 00:34:27,360 that just resigned because he was getting death threats and it was giving him, 439 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,519 you know, PTSD. Why would a meteorologist be getting death threats because he 440 00:34:31,599 --> 00:34:39,639 talked about climate change. I see, let me play Devil's advocate. Why 441 00:34:39,679 --> 00:34:45,159 not go on one of the biggest forums in the world, and you know 442 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:51,440 you've practiced, You've got cute cards, you've formatted the information for the general 443 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,920 public. Why not go and at least present the case? I mean, 444 00:34:55,039 --> 00:35:01,119 is there a scenario situation where you think somebody who was a science communicator and 445 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:08,159 a vaccine proponent could go on just in every platform like that and be effective. 446 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,960 Honestly, I don't see how. So part of that is it would 447 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:23,920 require a moderator that absolutely it sticks people, makes people adhere to the rules 448 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:28,960 involved, and so far that seems like it would be Rogan. And I 449 00:35:29,039 --> 00:35:31,880 don't think Rogan has the wherewithal to be able to do that, especially since 450 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:36,199 he certainly has a side in this debate, and so there would need to 451 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,360 be rules and a moderator. But who has has gone on line? It's 452 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,159 not how he hasn't been public right, He's gone on podcast, He's been 453 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:49,000 interviewed by news programs. He is trying to get the science based message out 454 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,199 to the public, So it's not like he's being secretive. He's just not 455 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,960 willing to play in the mud. I'm reminded of that, like, don't 456 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:59,519 play chess with a pigeon because they're going to shed all over the blood when 457 00:35:59,559 --> 00:36:01,719 they want, so you wouldn't do it. I mean, come on, 458 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:07,559 somebody right now, Melody from Thinking his power. I'm calling you out. 459 00:36:07,599 --> 00:36:09,639 I want you on my shell, and we're going to debate whatever you and 460 00:36:09,679 --> 00:36:14,760 I disagree with. You would always say no, Well, I certainly don't 461 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:19,760 feel like I have the expertise debate vaccines. So I suppose it might depend 462 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,719 on what area it is that we're talking about. And I don't know is 463 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:29,360 my checking the mail because I never shows up. I hear it is like, 464 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,400 I'm I don't know where you fall religiously, I'm not here for that, 465 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:37,199 but like I'm an ex evangelical and so one of the things, one 466 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:43,840 of the many tactics that people use to try to discredit the witness when it 467 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,559 comes to me, is he does this for a living or he's sold book 468 00:36:47,599 --> 00:36:51,920 he has, he's selling books that he has authored. Therefore, if he 469 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:58,760 receives revenue, his interests are completely self serving. Therefore he is not credible. 470 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:05,199 And I stare blankly at these people like they love their pastors, even 471 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,559 the maga pastors, the Joel Osteen types who are worth the squillion dollars, 472 00:37:10,079 --> 00:37:14,039 or this idea that if you can find a way to make a living doing 473 00:37:14,079 --> 00:37:17,679 what you love, you are automatically a shill. Like you know, do 474 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:23,519 they say professional athletes are fake or professional musicians are fake, or professional poets, 475 00:37:23,559 --> 00:37:29,280 authors, dramatists, actors, they don't love what they do, they're 476 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:30,920 not true believers. I mean, I don't know what if you do thinking 477 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,679 is power full time or if you're a teacher part time or what. But 478 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,239 I mean if you could, if you could be about thinkingspower dot com twenty 479 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:45,199 four to seven, would that discredit you as someone who wants rational thinking in 480 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,159 a more reasonable world. I don't think so, Melanie. I just don't. 481 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,400 Yeah. I think it's a really easy way to make yourself feel like 482 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:57,800 you've won an argument. And I the reason I bring up the net worth 483 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,960 of like Brogan and Kennedy is because, like you mentioned with the pastor, 484 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:06,719 the that kind of argument always tends to be one sided, like it applies 485 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:12,639 to you, but it doesn't apply to me. And scientists have decades of 486 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:17,000 schooling and experience, and we expect professionals to get paid for what you do. 487 00:38:17,079 --> 00:38:19,840 I mean, if you're a plumber, do you expect to not get 488 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,000 paid when you go to a house call? Right? Does that mean that 489 00:38:22,039 --> 00:38:30,000 you're like some sort of biased for plumbing. This only seems to apply two 490 00:38:30,079 --> 00:38:38,679 issues where scientific findings, which we all know are inherently reliable. We understand 491 00:38:38,679 --> 00:38:42,280 that science is reliable, which is why so many people try to justify their 492 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:46,679 opinions with science. But when science conflicts with a core belief, something that's 493 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:51,480 really important to us, then that gets our defensiveness up, and we need 494 00:38:51,519 --> 00:38:57,599 to find a way to make ourselves feel justified for rejecting those scientific findings. 495 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,360 I'm sorry for giving me Melanie. Go ahead, it go ahead now. 496 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,880 I was just thinking about a comedian and I don't I don't believe this, 497 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,199 but the joke made me laugh out loud. He said, you know, 498 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:14,000 if I actually do make twenty million dollars, you're going to know because I'll 499 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:20,440 be in Palm Springs with my new friends right due that you and I are 500 00:39:20,519 --> 00:39:23,599 cashing in. It's just it's obviously they're trying to discredit the witness rather than 501 00:39:23,679 --> 00:39:30,719 deal with the points are that are being presented and disagreed with. I worry 502 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:37,239 that we live in a world where disagreement is it's a respectful disagreement is considered 503 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:44,599 weakness. I don't want to live in the same world as those people. 504 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:50,480 I'm not going to give quarter to those people. But I don't think that's 505 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:52,280 how we change the world. I don't think, hey, you're an idiot, 506 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:57,280 Hey you're a moron, Hey at fuck you or whatever that. I 507 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,119 don't think that's how we change the world. But I see a lot out 508 00:40:00,159 --> 00:40:07,840 of it because I think people write other people off completely. You are unreachable. 509 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:09,679 Now, I want to tell you another personal anecdote. This is dirty 510 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:14,880 laundry, but I'm just gonna this is where I am, Melanie. I'm 511 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:21,360 like an abused partner when it comes to my religious mother, and every couple 512 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:27,480 of years I unblock and we have a casual relationship that then escalates into judgment 513 00:40:27,519 --> 00:40:30,159 and shame, and then I have enough and I blocked. You know. 514 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,840 Sorry, I don't know why I keep going back going This time it'll be 515 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:37,639 different, right, I'm sure there's good in there somewhere, and so it 516 00:40:37,639 --> 00:40:44,079 has happened again. I look at my evangelical lady, four year old zealot 517 00:40:44,079 --> 00:40:47,159 of a parent and think I've written her off, like I think she is 518 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:52,199 unreachable. So I'm guilty of that. Do you think there are some people 519 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:58,519 in this world where and there's no hope? That why bother? You know, 520 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,679 do you ever get there? Well? Yeah, I think those are 521 00:41:01,679 --> 00:41:07,880 two separate questions. Thank you for sharing that story. That's really hard. 522 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,280 It's kind of self serving, I guess. I mean, I don't know 523 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:13,079 what people want to know what goes on in my life, but it's as 524 00:41:13,119 --> 00:41:16,440 a host. I just you know, it's a personal struggle that may relate 525 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:22,440 to other people going through familial stuff and emotional blackmail and boundary violations, and 526 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:27,760 so I really share it in that way because I know many people can relate, 527 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:29,920 and not just when it comes to religion, but when it comes to 528 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:34,320 life choices and identity and everything else. But I mean, sometimes you and 529 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,480 I have to look at people and go no hope next. And I'm guilty 530 00:41:37,519 --> 00:41:43,639 of that, right Yeah. So I think that I would like to think 531 00:41:43,679 --> 00:41:47,880 that no person is unreachable. However, I think there are people who aren't 532 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:54,559 reachable by what I have the ability, or what I am wanting to give, 533 00:41:55,440 --> 00:42:00,519 And that line falls in different places for different people. So if you 534 00:42:00,599 --> 00:42:06,320 know me, my husband is black, and when we got married, I 535 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,719 lost family members and it was a battle that we tried to fight. And 536 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,559 for some people, it was just not worth keeping them in our lives, 537 00:42:16,199 --> 00:42:19,599 and you have to make that decision. For at least this is why I 538 00:42:19,599 --> 00:42:25,960 tell myself it wasn't worth the effort to keep them in my life. For 539 00:42:27,039 --> 00:42:31,440 a random stranger, when I see somebody online posting antibax conspiracy theories, they're 540 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:36,199 not worth my time at all. So it depends on the situation and the 541 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:40,360 relationship. I would like to think, though, that those people still are 542 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:45,079 reachable. I'm just not willing to do it. Maybe I can call your 543 00:42:45,079 --> 00:42:47,119 family and then I'll give you my mom's cell number. Maybe we can like, 544 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:51,679 you know, swap. Maybe that's it. We just come from different, 545 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:57,199 different perspectives, different contexts. But you're right, I mean I think 546 00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:01,320 I may not be able to reach someone. That's maybe someone else could, 547 00:43:01,519 --> 00:43:06,239 you know, maybe it's someone from a different perspective who is less threatening and 548 00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,440 there's less baggage. I'm by that, you know, that's that seems intuitive. 549 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:15,239 Any final thoughts about thinking is power for our audience here that you know, 550 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:20,239 I just love your stuff. It's it sounds. I'm not trying to 551 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:24,039 minimize it, but it's fun to look at and it's easily digestible, and 552 00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:30,599 it's really taps into the humanity the why we believe what we believe, and 553 00:43:30,679 --> 00:43:37,639 it doesn't it doesn't lead with disdain for the sheeple, but instead says, 554 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:45,079 we're all people were navigating our way. Let's find a way to I don't 555 00:43:45,079 --> 00:43:52,000 know, get opportunities, create opportunities for changing minds, even our own that 556 00:43:52,119 --> 00:43:54,039 I just sell your site for you after I ask you what it was, 557 00:43:54,119 --> 00:43:57,760 Melanie, I mean, I don't know. That's what I do. I 558 00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:59,840 don't know. I don't think I could do any better than that. You 559 00:44:00,079 --> 00:44:02,719 can. What is thinking as power? And what resources do you have? 560 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:08,159 As we punctuate the conversation here, well, thinking as power came from my 561 00:44:08,199 --> 00:44:13,360 work as an educator. I teach a science at a community college and non 562 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,320 major science importantly, so these are people who don't want to be scientists when 563 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:19,719 they grow up, and I was teaching them science the old way, like 564 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,360 biology. And here's all the things you need to memorize, and I finally 565 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,559 realized that was not a good use of their time, and so I created 566 00:44:25,599 --> 00:44:30,079 a course instead to teach these skills and teach them how to think. And 567 00:44:30,079 --> 00:44:35,840 in the process, what I found was, again, how we think and 568 00:44:36,039 --> 00:44:38,320 how we know what we know and why science is reliable is more important than 569 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:44,159 the findings of science, because implicit in that process, if you understand how 570 00:44:44,199 --> 00:44:50,239 biased we are and how irrational we are and emotional and so on, then 571 00:44:50,599 --> 00:44:52,800 the logic of the process of science falls in place, like we can't understand 572 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:57,519 why we need science until we understand how biased we are. But the other 573 00:44:57,519 --> 00:45:02,400 thing is there's a lot of misinformation that science classes hopefully would address, you 574 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:07,639 know, things like climate change denial or evolution denile, or the safety of 575 00:45:07,679 --> 00:45:12,760 GMOs or the safety of vaccines, and those issues, like we've talked about, 576 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,960 tend to be important identity issues. There are things that are emotional that 577 00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,840 maybe your tribal for my students, and if I come in with one of 578 00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:23,239 those issues, then they're going to get defensive. So what I realized is 579 00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:28,320 I need to start with something that's not triggering, and so I teach them 580 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,800 first like we baby step into the water, right, we wade into this 581 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:37,280 shallow and where we do like witches and ghosts and UFOs and astrology and that 582 00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:38,960 kind of thing, and we move on to the more important things as we 583 00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:43,280 go. But I'm teaching them the process of how to think, what good 584 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,800 evidence looks like, what a logical argument looks like, and so that when 585 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,719 they get to those issues, they've had the practice to do so. And 586 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:52,679 then when I put it online, I just kind of thought, well, 587 00:45:52,679 --> 00:45:55,760 maybe people would be interested. And since then I've realized that reaching people is 588 00:45:55,760 --> 00:46:00,360 fun. And please if you follow me, I really appreciate you. But 589 00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:06,119 I really think a way to help us address our issue is to improve how 590 00:46:06,159 --> 00:46:09,440 we teach science, and so I'm doing more work with educators. Like if 591 00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:13,360 you get one educator, you get all of their students and so on and 592 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,320 so on. So I'm trying to do more of my work moving forward with 593 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:21,440 educators as well. You know, we'd like to think we're all immune from 594 00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:25,639 bias. Those other people they're deluded. Our thinking is pure. There was 595 00:46:25,679 --> 00:46:30,039 a great comic or political cartoon that you posted this is a few days ago, 596 00:46:30,079 --> 00:46:32,760 where you see a husband and wife sitting on the couch. I think 597 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:37,440 they're watching the news, and the man says, it's interesting how it's the 598 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:43,079 people who disagree with me who are all victims of bias or something like that. 599 00:46:43,559 --> 00:46:45,239 We don't like to think that we can be biased or wrong, but 600 00:46:45,559 --> 00:46:50,880 it's a great reminder that we were all human for better and for us hopefully 601 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,920 usually for better. But it's always good to realize that we might be wrong, 602 00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:59,039 and it's good to know if we're wrong, even if it stings. 603 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:04,639 Melanie King, you are amazing and I appreciate you chatting with me again. 604 00:47:04,679 --> 00:47:08,320 I'll link to thinkingspower dot com in the description box and let's talk again soon. 605 00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:13,840 Okay, awesome, Thank you so much. 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