Welcome to softcore History. Welcome back to softcore History. I'm your host for
the week Damn Chester. Now I'm joined as always by Rob Fox and Jake
Goldman. What is up? Boys? Whoo? I'm fucking lit. I
that was me bringing the energy. I'm probably halfway through my life based on
us life expectancy for men. Did you get that stat today? And just
you've been pondering it? It was my birthday yesterday? Was it really?
Yeah? Oh my god? So I'm thirty eight. Yeah, I know
we texted them. I didn't. I forgot your birthday. Man, I'm
sorry. Yeah, it's just a little too late for us at it to
kind of address it. At this point, I through half my life.
I'm halfway to seventy six and seventy seven the lifespan, make it seventy six.
I feel really bad. I forgot your birthday, So I'm half Look
what i I'm half. I'm it's half over. I would say like four
fifths over. It's half. I mean no, genetically, I'm good to
go. All my grandparents lived in their nineties, so you're like not even
halfway then, But I feel like, just statistically I'm halfway. M what
does that do for you? I just feel sad. Well. According to
Ross's doctor, something might be wrong with you. Yeah, he had a
pissing a cup for Ross, and Ross's doctor had to have a talk with
him about drinking. What serious? Apparently, No, this is dead serious.
You pat an issue? You peed for someone else. Yeah, and
then they popped for alcohol, even though he didn't drink the night before.
I guess it was just concerning levels, oh, like actual blood alcohol level.
No, No, like he was just concerned that my pea was weird.
Oh, it was like you you must drink several nights a week.
It was like Billy Rubin. Apparently I feel fine. Did I schedule a
doctor's appointment because of that? Yes? But I feel fine. I mean,
holistically speaking, it's how you feel. That's yeah, I feel great.
Jake spent the weekend gardening. I did. I shoveled a ton of
crushed limestone over three days and like fucked on a bulch. What's funny is
like the least leisurely fucking weekend of all it was amazing, some hard labor.
You just throwing a pod and like, you just shovel that stone,
dude, mm hmm What's funny is Rob brought up that his life is almost
over m hm. And we're starting to get to that age where you kind
of question, is this it is this what I'm gonna end up doing?
Yeah, I'm there. I can't even look at myself. It's just like
huh, like, oh, I guess we're gonna what is that? What
is it? No country for old event if the road you chose led you
to hear, what was the point of the road? Man? Big vibes,
That's that's podcasting in a nutshell. Everyone's vibes just just fucking kill me.
Put that. Don't even make me flip the coin. I just like
just putting my forehead out to the fucking cattle thing. Just swallow it,
like just to eat the coin and deep throughout the shatka. Yeah ah man,
that's how we start. That's how we start here at Softcore History,
Great Energy. Yep. I'm not even gonna promote our patreon Patreon dot COM's
Last Softcore History. You can check it out on your own. We have
two additional episodes every week. I'm not here to promote that though, I'm
here to just talk about when you reach a certain point in your life and
you think it's a good idea to maybe kind of change the vibe. Maybe
go for it hard reset, like hard reset. Are we talking like ritual
precipism here, No, we're talking about picking up everything you own and moving
your family. Oh just half of America or just yourself most Americans. We're
talking about migration for the most part. That's what this episode's about. Softwore
History listeners know obviously because they clicked on the episode. They have the title,
they have the description. I hate that they know before we do.
Yeah, I don't know what's what the fuck's going on? Yeah, my
guess there's gonna be a twist. And you're talking about people who migrated extremely
violently, not like colon like American colonialism violent lit but like Mongolian violent,
or people that were like literally shot out of a campus in a different country.
No, we're talking about people that were doing pretty well that decided,
you know what, this isn't good enough. Okay, who were talking about
We're talking about some pioneers that went west. All right, Oh nice,
but they were already good to go. Yeah, we're specifically talking about the
Donner Party. The Donner Party, you hear about this. You know about
this. I've heard vaguely about them. They are not like the Funnest Party.
No, it sounds like a terrible time, bad vibes. It started
out well but kind of fell off a cliff pretty quick. Yeah, I'm
excited. In fact, let's just get into it. Why you know,
let's get the pleasantries. Did we get it? It has been pleasant so
far, much like this entire migration west. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
I just thought like you brought it up naturally. I'm like, fuck everything
else, let's just get into it. Yeah. Whatever, death is inevitable.
Yeah, and life wasn't that great? Oh man, I'm really sorry
I didn't say happy birthday to you. Dude. I'm really feeling it now.
I missed my opportunity. I can't do it. I'll do it next
year. Yeah. I don't want it from either of you. Now you
have three hundred and sixty four day. Oh bad, Jake. I'm allowed
to feel what I want. My feelings are valid. I guess you were
too busy shoveling limestone. I really want Limestone's more important than your friend.
Rab Well. I couldn't close my gate. I had so much livered it
was spilling out onto the sidewalk and in my backyard at the same time to
close my tear ducks. Oh at least you can cry, you there.
Oh that's stupid. You can feel emotion. Actually, I don't feel bad
for that. Yeah, that's what that's you do. Indescribable pain feeding nothing
at all. No, it's not that I have a friend though, that
can physically not cry. Oh that's funny. Just dry heaves out of his
eyes. She does. Yeah, Oh that's hilarious. It's not hilarious,
just physically the tear ducks don't produce. This is tears. No, but
I don't know. I stay wet, looks sad. Uh not well,
she has to have eyedrops constantly. Oh that sounds rough. It's not great.
No, no, and much like this party led by George at the
time, who was sixty George and Jacob who was fifty six, his brother
Donner, and an Irish immigrant friend named James Reid. I bet I know
screwed it all up, but I know who they ate first. Fucking no
kidding, you're not far off. Maybe you're not right either, okay he
was second. No, you're not right. They were farmers in Springfield,
Illinois make a pretty good living. I've been to Springfield. It's grim.
Yeah, but this is like eighteen forty six, all right, Oh wow,
So maybe they met Abe Lincoln. Damn. Maybe just two ships passing
the night. Yeah, Like Abe Lincoln's buying a thing from a general store
there in line behind them. It's like, oh man, that guy's be
present one day and we're gonna eat each other crazy. We're gonna be two
of the most famous Americans from this time period. For entirely different reasons.
This is less two ships passing the night and more a ship passing a fucking
plane on fire tail spinning. So they packed up shop left Springfield in April
fourteenth, eighteen forty six, with an initial group of thirty one people,
mostly consistent of kids under ten. Oo little bodies for a lot of labor,
out of bodies, a lot of little ones for a lot of toddlers.
But for some reason they're just like, yeah, Springfield, Illinois,
we want more. You know. It's funny about that. By the way,
they just you just peaked something like in my mind. But they left
the day, not the year of the day, but the day Lincoln was
shot. Really Lincoln was killed in our shot. He didn't die in April
fourteen, but John Wilkes Booth shot it on April fourteen. Weird, It's
almost like it is crazy. He didn't die that day. Shot him with
the point blank in the fucking head. It was a little baby gun though,
yea, and those things they didn't pack. The punch still in the
head. I want to see you take it. I'll take it strong.
You probably probably woudn't even hurt now. Our bones are so much thicker,
Yeah, the skulls are. You do not think you think baby will get
tougher? What it was like the equivalent of a baby gun? A baby
gun? I mean if you didn't put enough powder in there. Yeah it
was. I think it was a flint lock pistol like it. But I
mean they did have revolvers then and with cartrigizenship, but I believe he used
a flint. He was the thespian he was going old. Had to be.
Yeah, it had to be ornate, stupid thing, yeah, with
like an description on it. It was um. They of course made their
way to the Queen City, Independence, Missouri. M h, you've been
into Kansas City. I believe it's gross. Give me the top outside of
Saint Louis in Kansas City and Columbia. Give me the top. How did
Queen City not become a free because everybody took off from this location? Or
yeah, like or Independence, Missouri? How did it not become bigger?
Yeah? I don't know. It's kind of part of Kansas City if I
recall correctly, Like it's basically let me let me look it up again.
It I'm I really want an answer to the question. I was gearing the
three best cities, and is that why they're called the Kansas City Royals?
Uh? No, that has to do with beef, that's yeah. Independence
is in is metro casey, it's the royals in Queen City. That would
make sense. That's It's not why it has to do with it has to
be processing plan or something. Yeah, that makes sense. Three best cities
that aren't Columbia, Saint Louis or Kansas City or any Branson and brand keep
kind of maybe. I don't even fuck Silver Dollar City. It really falls
off a cliff aft. That's where you take your family for vacation. It's
interesting. I that's I've never really thought about anything other than those three cities,
so you do a little fishing. You see yakof Smeirnoff. Did you
really did you go to Branson? Yeah? When I was like ten,
that was when I've never even been to Branson. We've talked about before.
I was terrified of going to Branton. My family would save up for like
a yearly vacation. It would always be the most random spots. Did you
have to go? Did you go like Valley Forge? I live by Valley
Forge. No, you probably went to Williamsburg, Colonial Williamsburg. No.
Well, Valley Forge though, is right by h King of Presham Mall.
Is it? That's the place where like all the ridiculous attractions right Valley Forge.
I actually my friend who got married in Philadelphia, like a military academy
there. She got married right near Valley Forge and King of Presham Mall as
well in like a colonial well on a colonial estate, but not in the
home or whatever. Am I thinking of Pigeon Valley? Maybe Pigeon Forge?
That's not Georgia. What's the one with the dumb attraction roadside attractions all over
it? That's probably Pigeon Ford. I think it's the place in Kentucky or
not Kentucky, Tennessee where Dolly Parton's uh thean Bark is Dollywood Dollywood. Yeah,
but it is also kind of like there is a bunch of I've been
to a place in Tennessee that has a bunch of dumb shit like that,
but all the cabins everything. I think it's it's not Pigeon Forge, but
it's something similar. Pigeon Forge is Georgia because there's a Twitter account it's like
fake and it always brags about it's like a coat three year letterman or whatever.
Yeah, that Twitter account always brags about having a vacation spot and pitch
or just like going on vacation to Pigeonforge, like it's like badass. Yeah,
that's definitely it. Then yeah, yeah, gladly established all this.
So they leave Independance, Missouri a little wait because they get there late,
so kind of what are they supposed to do? Live there for a year?
No exactly, but they had to leave earlier. Get your ass on
the road. Yeah. Also Queen City taken. But I'm saying the standard
deadline to leave usually for the West round April, like late April, right,
you want to do it in the summer, you gotta get there before
it gets cold. Yeah. They get there and leave May twelfth on the
last caravan out, last train out. It's not the best train to be
on. Cincinnati is the queen City, by the way, Why is it
called Yeah, but Independence was called the Queen City. I know, I'm
sure it is, but it got overshadowed by the bigger queen city, Cincinnati.
Cincinnati bigger, I don't know than KC, but certainly then Independence.
Yeah, but Independence at this point is like suburban Kansas City. First few
weeks were somewhat pleasant. Everyone was in a good mood, initially taking in
nature, singing songs, dancing, fucking May and June, having beautiful,
beautiful weather, having games, immaculate vibes. Yeah. There was about fifty
wagons the party, but uh, James Reid's wagons were a little different.
He spent a little extra coin on them. They were custom built and there
were two stories with beds on the top, layer entrances on the side like
a stagecoach. Damn, he had like a rolling hotel. He was a
baller. Yeah. The rest of the wagons grew to resent Reed and his
wagons, as they were not only a flash of wealth to the rest of
the migrants, but also pretty bulky and slow and required more oxen. That's
really funny, like, asshole, we're trying to get here fast. Yeah.
Also that is dumb, like you're not gonna live in your wagon at
the end of the journey. You're really blowing all the money on the fucking
wagon, on the whip, not the crib. Fucking Irish. On May
twenty sixth, they reached the Big Blue River in Kansas. Man, you
guys are someone names out in the Midwest induced to that due to recent heavy
rain, it raised the body of water by twenty feet And if anyone who
plays orgon trail, this is essentially just Oregon trail. Yeah, you don't
want to try to float A you can't ford that river, and B you
don't want to try to float it. So you got to either find a
fucking ferry or wait or die. By the way, they're trying to go
to California, I A okay, not a Yeah. They spend a few
days on the banks building rafts to navigate the river with their wagons and belongings.
Unfortunately, a member of the party, Sarah Keys, died of tuberculosis
on May twenty ninth classic that reminds me of I don't know if you guys
are old enough to have done this, but did you guys have like organ
trail in your in your classroom computers when you're Yeah, we had the floppy
disk yep, okay, cool, so we did too, obviously, And
a really fun thing that you do is just like obviously there's not multiplayer and
organ trail, but in your friends, you and your buddy each on a
computer right next to each other, you just do a race to see who
can get to organ the fastest. But like also for some reason, instead
we wouldn't name it after sometimes we name to our friends. But we were
also just like like I had a buddy who was just like so horny,
just like it's like like you know, puberty was seeing him early and he
was just like the horniest person a lot point. He was just like named
them like Pam Anderson and like yas mean bleathe and like Britney Spears, like
everyone was just or whatever who was hot by just like a Christina Aguilera,
I was just in the wagon. So it would just be like Christina Aguilera
had died of dysentery and he'd be like, no, Christina, Christina,
It's like, dude's what happens when you go to grueling pace. It's true,
especially when you have these read wagons. Hunting was so hard in that
fucking game. Well, the whole point. If you really wanted to beat
Organ Trail, you just get bullets. You don't need anything else. It's
just stack bullets. Always have food. They really should, though, have
a thing where it's like the fairy costs twenty dollars. It's like, would
you like to pay the ferry man or stick him up and bake him?
Oh, take care, Blood Meridian Trail, We're gonna do it that way.
It's Red Dead Trail, Red Dead Trail, yeah, or any real
Western trail where his skin where the fairyman's skin, Like, yeah, I
just don't know what blood Meridian is. So that's that one book that Jake
reads, book I've ever read. Yeah, Like, I don't know how
many people are gonna get that reference. They specifically hijack a fairy, the
Cormac McCarthy novel that they like, the famous one that they have not made
a movie. It would be just it would be just endless scenes of violence.
That's why. It's just like you'd be proud of me, Jake.
I finally got a book this year. Well book you reading? I got
a Charles Bukowski book. Oh cool? I hate him, bro. You
know what his headstone says, don't try that. He fucked dude. We
really need to stop being such stereotypical podcasters. You're reading Cormack McCarthy. He's
Readingski that piece of Ship. His whole thing is like, find something you
love and let it kill you. It's like you just loved yourself, dickhead.
I'm fine with that. Fair enough, Rob, fine, I'll change
my interests for you. So they gave Sarah Keys a proper funeral, and
they decided to cross the river two days later. They only brought enough food
for a four month journey, which was optimistic to reach California in such a
short period of time. They essentially did not account for any misapps along the
way. That's so smart. But they accounted for a two story wagon,
but nothing else could go wrong. They wanted more room in the wagon for
their personal things. Why would anything go wrong? I love that attitude.
Planning for failure is planning to fail. Yes, I think it's the other
way around. If you have a plan B, it means your plan is
not gonna work. Planning for plan to fail, it's failed to plan,
plan to fail. No go plan failed the plan. Now it's planned to
fail, plan to fail. Yeah, it's planned to fail, plan to
fail. Think about it a stroke. Now, I don't know what's happening.
They had about one hundred. They weren't confident enough. No, I'm
just saying they weren't confident. They didn't use their reality distortion fields. You
know, they had about one hundred and fifty pounds of flour and seventy five
pounds of meat for each person, and rations of rice, beans and core
meal. How do they not have enough food? They pick up more people?
Oh no, it's so dumb. So they're planning for the best case
scenario. Then they're like, hey, that's like it's like you're you're driving
across the country and someone has calculated exactly how much money you need for exactly
how much gas you need for the amount of people in the car and the
weight of the car, and what the wind and weather is going to be.
And then you're like, hey, I like a couple couple of hitch
hikers cook at the obese hitchhiker in right now, he's breaking his sway,
he's gonna drop that. We gotta get him in here. Yeah. No,
I I can't imagine being this stupid. No, but you also need
protection. You're going against like natives, the wild. Yeah, and all
you brought was toddlers. Really grown men, these people are. We have
established on this show that if all of us and our families had to go,
you would just start chucking my toddler? Is that wild baby baby?
The first time we heard a bush russell? So it's clearly you think toddlers
have some use on the trail. Two miles out of Saint Louis later,
Rory, sorry, I'm just thinking of me and Dan on a wagon with
like thirty toddlers. Like the second we see we're just like, yo,
out you're gone. One of you, the weakest get out. In June,
the party reached Fort Laramie, Wyoming, a week late. They were
worn several times about the new untested Hastens cutoff route, but they're like,
yo, this shortcut is gonna save us three hundred miles. I don't hate
it. I mean, you get on Monday morning quarterback the people that had
to eat each other. Wait till you hear about it. Wait till you
hear about this cutoff weeken all Monday morning, quarterback says twenty twenty. I
guess yeah. So, man by the name of James Climbing recently returned from
the Hastens cutoff and reported to James Reid that the path was barely passable on
foot alone, let alone or let alone wagons. Climbing said it would be
an impossible feat and to stick to the conventional California road. This guy's clearly
never seen a two story wagon before because those can go over anything. I
imagine. No, because there's tree that they have to like cut down and
take out. It's not a path. I just don't think your attitude's right
man. Okay, yeah, thats not with that attitude, you know.
Now. This was coined by Lanceford Hastens and his immigrant guide to Oregon in
California that included the shortcut. The party pretty much relied on it as gospel
because they planned on meeting up with this man to guide them through. Unfortunately
for them, Hastens never actually traveled the path himself. There's his travel guide,
though it's his travel guy, and it's gospel, and he named it
after himself, and he didn't travel on it. It's a kind of a
dick move man, you know. I think we found who the Hitler was
the first people to explore America and never been to America. I mean,
this is by definition confusing map for territory. Like everyone that's ever done it.
It's like, don't do this. Yeah, and you're like, I
got this, I read it in a book. No, I'm good.
Yeah. This would be his first trek through the entire path with a large
party in wagons, and his experience on the trail. This is like if
the Guy from Into the Wild was minuscule at best, Like he maybe hit
some parts of the trail, but he didn't do the whole thing. It's
like the guy from Into the Wild didn't go himself but led an entire fucking
party to the bus. Yeah, oh my god, trust me, guys,
these berries are sick. The Donner party planned on meeting Hastens at Fort
Bridger, but since they were two weeks late, Hayston's bailed and they never
crossed paths at the fort. Yeah, I mean, what's he supposed to
do? Wait? There forever? Have cell phones. Two weeks is too
many. Throughout their journey, they would pick up stray families and individuals to
beef up their numbers, like I said previously, to make up for that
initial split of when they got to the Fort Laramie, there was a couple,
a couple of people will disagree to go with the Hastens trail. Oh
no, we're just gonna stick with the regular route. We're gonna go the
well traveled road. Oh you mean the people that God favored, did he?
Yes, he favored them with intelligence and was like, hey, you
heard the local that said this thing is impassable. We're gonna do the thing.
Then the long way. We're gonna go the long way. Maybe sometimes
it's it's nice to check out the scenic route. This is just a classic
case of someone being like they're trying to fuck me, Like they're trying to
fuck me over, and you know, no one's trying to fuck you over,
and you end up sucking yourself over because you thinks someone's trying to fuck
So at this fourth they pick up the families, the Graves, the Breens,
the Murphy's, the keys Burghs, the Edies, and the mccutcheons more
Irish, along with you know, a few a few other stragglers, just
hobo anybody like, come on in. We got enough meat for none of
you. Yeah, oh man, you got barrel for clothes. Get in
here. A journalist named Edward Bryant heard about the dinner party and and had
experience with this cutoff. He wrote letters to the fort telling them do not,
at any costs try to do this, please for the love of God.
Well, like he went up. He went down the trail and was
like, this isn't a trail He had through it before, and he heard
about this party going through. He's like, dude, no, don't not.
So he kept riding to the fort bridge or fort. Unfortunately, all
the letters went to Jim Bridger, who conveniently had a trading post there.
Jim Bridger's the wild Man, right, I have no idea he's famous.
Hold on, let me look him up. I'm pretty sure. Well,
this guy burned the letters because he thought if the Hastings cut off started to
pop off and became more popular, his trading posts would obviously make more money.
Right, So we threw out the letters. N the classic Well,
let's just for business. James Felix Jim Bridger was an American mountain lion trapp
or army scout and wilderness guide. I think I think that is the guy
who Brad Pitt says he's descended from in the World War two movie Fuck Quentin
Tarantino in Glorious Pastard Glorius. Yeah, man, I'm pretty sure he says
he's Jim Bridges descended. Interesting sounds right, I'm not gonna question you,
nor should you. No gospel. So the letters get burned. They go
down Hasten's route, Hasten's cut off, and they start finding letters from Hasten's
attached to Wooden Steaks. He's like, I know I bailed on you guys,
but uh, if you guys want to meet up later, what he's
just leaving them breadcrumbs of letters of invite, Like he's just like shooting him
texts like he ghosted them. But it's still like texting yeah, dip,
like his place sucks you up. Yeah. And this is when they reached
the Wassau Mountains. He wrote the road ahead was incredibly rough and it would
not be wise to continue down the road, but he did offer to meet
up with them and guide them through another path. I mean at some point
it's not a road, no, it's just it's a direction. You're going
through the wilderness. Yeah. Yeah. The Donners agreed to stay and wait
for Hastens. Over a week went by and Hastens never showed, so Read
and a few others set out themselves to find this shifty guide. But they
eventually found where was he. We're just kind of out in the wilderness.
It's just chilling in the woods. Yeah, he's just hang So he offers
to take them through this new, unproven path that he has never done before,
either the second one. But they made it through the first one.
No, they're not through it, okay. In the midst of it,
it's like he's like, I have another cooler path inside this. Like you
go to the entrance, you maybe make it like half a mile and then
he's like, you know what, this road's too tough. I got another
thing going, I got another thing cooking, I got another what's the iron
in the fire here? It's he doesn't know where the first play was anyway.
This is just honestly, I know that there You know people now,
people today between social media and and everything, you know, whatever, there
are a thousand different truths that people have or like this is a grifter's paradise.
But man, no, Ben Spent, we all love loves ever grifters.
There was no better time to be a grifter than Western expansion, manifest
destiny. Yeah, dude, I can't imagine any time. I mean,
you know, all of history's kind of a nightmare. But like, god
damn, it's not only you can move to a different city. It's like
you could go start another state. Yes, like yeah, you could become
the governor of a place if you mess. That's kind of the story of
Deadwood. I think that's most outlaws, right, they just go to another
town to come sheriff. Yeah. Yeah, it's like I'm just the best
gun guy here. So I'm I've worn out, I'm a welcome better move
eight miles it start a new laugh. Yea. Yeah, I don't know
why you have to go all the way to California. No, yeah,
just it's the furthest you can go down the streets, go to Kansas,
man, I kind of get Just go as far as you can, no,
because then you know, you know, just move over to the next
town where you're welcome there, and then the next time, next time,
keep moving down the road. Despite already proving he was completely untrustworthy and unreliable,
they agreed to let him do so. This new route was incredibly treacherous
because well it wasn't a root at all. This were added as things like
removing trees to get waggons through. We're part of their daily routine. The
party was traveling only one point five miles a day through this tough stress sikes
not good, not great. For context, pioneers would average around fifteen yeaheah,
that makes sense, so way behind man. Fifteen miles a day,
by the way, is also awful. It's nothing if that's all you're doing
all day. They're just walking. But I mean, like the wagons and
shit. So let's say this walking. You go, what's a walk like
five miles an hour? Yeah, just about, so you could walk probably
fifteen miles and three hours. Yeah, I mean, like taking breaks and
stuff, you could probably get like, I don't know, like you probably
get fifteen sounds slow fifty miles. It is slow. For example, I
mean, for context, that would be a bad march for a Napoleonic army.
And this is thirty years after Napoleon. Like Napoleon's whole thing was he
was like Blitzkrieg before blitz Creek. Like he just fucking moved. He could
march dudes real, real well without totally wearing the mountain shit like that.
He just had a good marching army. Yeah, fifteen miles in a day,
that's like light work for an a whole army full of wagons. Yeah,
as they're crossing these mountains, they're about eighty seven deep. Just kind
of context for how many people were in the party. Yeah, once they
get through the Wassout mountains, the party was deeply unprepared for the desert conditions
of salt lakes. So you get a little mountain, a little desert,
you get a lot of different climates. It's America, baby, Where are
the about right now? There in Utah Utah huh okay. Interesting, wagons
were routinely getting stuck in sandy elements. Water supplies were very low, and
oxen were just either dying or running off, just leaving like this. Even
the animals were like, you know how, you guys are stupid. These
are dumb tick chances with the wolves. Yeah, we're just dying and little
bit faster. Yeah. On September twenty sixth, they reached the Humboldt River
and finished the Haystins cut off. They made it, all right, die
not that many yet, okay, but we're only so it's mostly just long
and annoying. We're only in Utah. Okay. Well, it's it delays
them quite a bit, Okay, And that's an important note that they were
only going one point five miles a day. Yeah, and they basically weren't.
I mean, if they're going to California and they're in Utah and that's
how fast they're going, they're fucked. They're going to hit a certain location
when they shouldn't hit the location somewhere I imagine in the Sierra Nevada Mountains.
Yeah, that would be correct, right, Yeah, yeah, somewhere between
San Francisco and Lake Tahoe. They were a month behind schedule and decided it
would be best, do you know what, let the cattle chill for a
few days, give a break the ox and the cattle. Yeah, they
had cattle too that they just didn't need. They're just driving cattle. They're
like, oh, we'll have this here, we'll have it for us to
make our new life, I mean infury. It's not a bad idea.
Yeah, they had a problem with the cattle though, Natives would just go
and steal them. Yeah. Yeah. Quite often they ended up losing hundreds
of cattle. Yeah, it sounds right. One incident where they lost twenty
one in one night. That's really bad. Imagine. Let me put it.
It's like, imagine you're walking from one end of the country to the
other today and you just have all your money on you. But the way
you have it on you isn't a wallet. You t hundred dollar bills to
a rope, and you just dragged that rope behind you. Yeah, from
one end of the country to the other. Ten thousand dollars worth one hundred
dollar bills. It's a seventy five yard rope. So roughly during this stretch
in Utah oxen or running off or dying cattle or getting stolen and gone,
they kind of have to ditch a couple of these wagons because they have to
manually pull them. Oh my god, Oh not fun. Don't have enough
toddlers for that. The toddler strategy is just where they went wrong from They
picked up a lot of grown men on the way there's eighty seven. Now
the thirty one was, you know, only half toddler. Okay, okay,
fair enough. There's plenty of grown men in this party. That's a
bad toddler ratio, though half toddlers shouldn't be one to one. Though it's
got awful maybe teenagers. I didn't look into a Yeah, yeah, there's
a thirteen year old. We'll get to. So they had to manually pull
these wagons. The group began getting kind of testy, especially towards James Reid.
Yeah, you pull a wagon yourself for a couple of days and you
start to fucking hate everybody. Yeah, I imagine, so, which is
why I don't still think it's weird that you're like a great weekend shiveling limestone
because he's doing it as a hobby. It was a hobby. It's just
like I wanted to landscape my art. I come in from. Yeah,
but you're doing it. You're not doing it seriously. You're doing it as
I mean seriously. You're not doing it professionally. No, you're not doing
it day in and day out. Yeah yeah, no, it's fine,
Like it's I can take a break whenever I want, you know, you're
using it to just like connect with your wife. I'm using it just to
make my house look better. Yeah, but hm. On October fifth,
two wagons got caught up in one another and the driver, John Snyder,
started whipping the feud remaining Oxen. Reid didn't care for that, and he
ordered him to stop, and when Snyder told him the fuck off, Reid
stabbed him in the stomach. Oh that's a good move. Yeah, yeah,
killing Snyder days later from the wounds road rage. Oh my god,
he had one. He had a festering wound. Death, festering stomach wound.
Yeah, terribly out, pretty long on your stomach. Damn. I
believe they show that in Reservoir Dogs. Yeah, he's shot in the stomach.
It's just I actually remember we talked about this before in another episode,
but that Civil War book I talked about reading as a kid, one of
his friends, like an older guy. It's like something like a friend's dad
who he's serving in the Confederate Armory with shot in the stomach, and that
just like has a horrible, painful, long death in this children's book.
Yeah, well like middle school book, right, Yeah, it's like for
a seventh grader yeah, yeah, like fifth, sixth, seventh grade.
Yeah. A deliberation sorry between the group on how to handle this murder broke
out. Some wanted him hung, but ultimately it was decided that Reid would
be exiled from the group, left to wander to the desert by himself.
That's I mean, he's got as good a shot as them at this point,
right, Yeah, he's gonna travel faster than them. Yeah. Oh
he's light. Yeah. Two days after shunning Red, another older member of
the party named hard Coop was growing weak and could not continue, so they
threw him out of the wagon, left him to die. Good lord,
these are brutal. So they got mad at one guy for murdering someone and
then immediately turn around and murder a person for being weak, old old,
Yeah you brought him. I blame the Toddlers for this as well. I
imagine it's some sort of children of the Coin situation. Their eyes just turned
red. No, kill, kill the weak one, and kill the outlander.
A few days after this, a man named wolf Finger was killed by
Native Americans in a gunfight, and a week after that, William Pike was
shot and killed in an alleged accident. M So it's slowly developing like devolving
into chaos over here. I think it just sounds like an average trip West.
I will turn this wagon around, you think, so help me?
God? You think this is all a lot of them went kind of what
do you think like this success? Like until they start eating each other?
I don't know. You can probably look it up, like what the mortality
rate of a trip West? I'm really curious about that, So I'm going
to look that up while you go. Then Charles Stanton decided to ride ahead
and reach Sutter's Fort get in two new Hispanic companions that assured the party it
would not snow in this Sierra Nevada's until November. So the group pushed on,
but as luck would have it, snow began a little early that year.
Oh. Surprisingly low mortality rates on at least the Oregon Trail. What
was it, four to six percent of immigrant side. That is shockingly loads.
Yeah, so this party not doing great. They are on the really
you know tilts the statistics. Yeah, they reached Trucky Lake and encountered a
snowed in blocked pass and they had no choice but the hunker down and ride
out the winter in the Sierra Nevadas in the middle of the mountains. M
Yeah, people do that for fun now. Yeah, they're they're in a
vacation to the mountains. They're in a beautiful spot. It's a scenic death
trucky. Trucky is pretty solid. Like they're right by Tahoe. That's really
funny. Yeah, there's actually if you drive from Tahoe to San Francisco,
you take the Donner Pass like you drive it. Yeah, that's funny.
Got named after them. Food supplies were already scarce and everything went fast.
William Eddie was a brief hero after killing and bringing back a bear to the
party, but that meat was gone in a blink of an eye. Obviously,
I had to share a bear with you know, eighty people. That's
like one meal. Yeah, I think it's more than one meal. I
don't know, man, how you can Yeah, yeah, I mean it
is, but like it's not a lot. It's gotta be. It's also
a bear in winter. Maybe it's it's like a fat bear. If it
it would be a fat bear, so like maybe a week. Yeah,
you could stretch it, you really could. I mean bones for Brad.
Well, here we go. Once they ran out of food, they cow
bones and hide, followed by leather tree bark, and then uh what they
were using for the roofing of their makeshift shelters. What was that poop?
More hide? Oh just hide? See And I feel like this is one
of those things where these are the type of people that didn't ration correctly too,
Like you gotta imagine, like they weren't looking a month ahead. They
were like, oh shit, we got a bunch of meat, let's eat
it all. Yeah, oh we're ahead of schedule. Yeah, extra meat
to that in the stew boys. Right, Things got pretty desperate, so
seventeen individuals known as the Snowshoe Party in the camp attempted to make it on
foot through the pass and get help. Now that's like those dudes that leave
the grocery store in the midst Yeah they don't come back. Oh yeah,
they got lost two days in. Yeah, and without food. A name
a man named Patrick Dolan. Throughout the idea, some were already probably thinking
but to start eating each other of course, yeah, cannibalism. Did they
start with the veal? Well, they debated how they would decide who should
be sacrificed for the group, But before they could start picking straws. A
teamster named Antonio keeled over and died. Oh perfect, Hey, team player,
definitely a team player. Franklin Grays followed soon after. Oh damn,
two bodies too quick. They started uh on those two guys, and it
was pretty quick when the people started to get delirious and crazy from eating human.
Oh they got mad cow right away. Patrick Dolan died running through the
snow naked, Okay, after eating at like right after eating, not after.
I think he had a panic attack. That's I think it's nerves more
than anything. It's not nerves. It's literally just these brutal months combined with
eating another human and everything just there was a tipping point, right, nerves,
that's quite literally nerves. That's what I'm saying. He's having a panic
attack. He's having like a nervous break. He just lost it. I
don't even know what you're saying, the same thing I know. But panic
attack makes it sound worse or not worse, but like almost not as he's
frantic, insane, he went insane. He had Okay, he had a
psychotic break, yes, okay, he wasn't just having like oh my god,
I'm losing my mind, like he started doing snow angels naked. Yeah.
I mean that probably combined, like you said, with the conditions,
and he probably probably was having hypo exhausted. Yeah, it's like a state
of dude, what the fuck am I doing? Some of the more noble
individuals in the group decided to just starve. They want to eat human respect
honestly. Also like a party, you has got to be like that guy's
gross. Yeah, dude, don't want to Do you want to eat a
fat guy? Or do you want to eat like an old guy? You
know what I mean? It's just like do you smell it cooking? Though?
You gotta cook? I guess that's the thing that I bet gets everybody.
You're hungry and someone's like, fuck it, we're doing this, and
you're like, I don't want to and then they start roasting. You're smell
cooking me? Just cooking meat. At a certain point, I'm not mad.
What's kind of barbecue? All right? Those who decided to starve,
of course, began food. It's like you're either gonna eat us, are
you gonna be eating? It's literally eat or be eaten. Yeah. January
nineteenth, what was left of the snowshoe party reached the Johnson Ranch in the
Sacramento Valley. Hey, they made it. William Eddie then went to Sumter
Fort to request help to go back for the rest of the dinner party,
and he discovered that James Reed made it too. Oh the guy they sent
the man fort. He was like, yeah, it was easy alone.
Oh my god. So the best this is the best fate. They could
have abandoned me to, like left me to. And Reid himself was trying
to put together a search party because his family was with the rest of the
people. Yeah, he was like where are they? Yeah, he so
he was trying to like get a rescue party going. However, if you
recall it was eighteen forty six, well, war going on, the war
going on, I can't really spare any troops with the Mexican American War happening,
and they're going to California, which is a Mexican territory, not even
part of America at that point. Yikes. Won't speak for a couple of
years. I what were these you know what? They were getting there at
the right time though, apparently, I mean three years later, Colonel at
the Fort decided we can spare the troops but you get to wait till February.
I would be so annoyed. If I was a troop, I'd be
like, dude, what gotta go on another fucking trip through the mound.
It's like in Aliens when they're annoyed they have to go save the colonists,
and they're like, God, damn fucking calling us. Yeah, oh yeah.
After a war, especially the Mexican American one, you'd be like,
now they're in the war, they even get to get some You gotta go
find a bunch of idiots in a mountain. Yeah, you're not even on
like a you're not even fighting anybody. No, you're not with Zachary Taylor
or Winfield Scott. And you just know they're not human at this point.
You know what they've done. Oh yeah, how long they've been out there?
No, just leave it. Don't even let it be real quick.
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relief team, was led by William Eddi, reached the camp on February eighteenth,
eighteen forty seven. They found a dozen dead and most survivors in a
state of shock. Evidence of cannibalism at the camp. Both Donner brothers died
along with their lives. The relief team could only take back twenty three people
with them out of out of I think it was, there's another like twenty
or so left. Oh man, it's just like, hey, we got
to leave you guys. Sorry, you gotta leave you guys here. There
might be more at this point, but eventually. Yeah. So the final
number the people, the amount of people that make it, eighty nine people
went into the Sierra Nevada Mountains, forty eight came out. Honestly, for
as grand as they make the Donner Party sound, the fact that over fifty
percent made it, that's not bad. It could be worse. Again,
you said the rate was six percent. Yeah, oh catastrophic. I'm just
saying, with the reputation of the Donner Party where it makes it sound like
everybody, I'm sure it was a nightmare. Rob. I'm just I'm just
saying people overplaying. I don't think so. For how stupid these people were,
I think it's a miracle that many survived. Yeah, batting five hundred
for these morons, Oh like that's pretty incredible. They kept bringing on extra
mouths, Yeah, like they planned for zero mishaps. Also, like the
two Hispanic homies they picked up along the way that were like guiding them through
the Sierra about us they killed in eight Well, I mean of course they
did they why not? Yeah, well of course they did, right,
they don't really have any affiliation with us. I have a question for you.
Were they like insanely close to help the whole time or something like that
to wasn't it like a whole part of it? No? Okay, there
wasn't a fort just over the other The ford is the one that you're talking
about. But yeah, the pass is completely blocked. It snowed in,
and yeah they couldn't. They had to wait an entire month for the rescue
party. Yeah, I mean like from proximity though, like I'm sure it
was I guess, relatively close. It's wild I believe how close they were
actually, Yeah, but like you know, it was a quarter mile.
It's like, yeah, they could see it. No, it's not like
that, but ten ten miles back then, ain't ten miles? No,
they're only getting one and a half, right, Like, Yeah. Some
of these people also died on the way back. Some waited for the or
died waiting for the second relief team, and some died when they eventually made
it. There was a story of a kid that was so hungry, so
starved that when he did eventually get to the fort and was able to eat
food, he consumed too much and his stomach just kind of fucking Yep.
That was a problem with the concentration survivors. Man. Yeah, they died
a lot. That's a good scene in Bander Brothers. Actually, when the
doctor has to be like, you gotta stop fucking feeding them right now.
You gotta lock them back up or they're gonna die. Yeah, pretty much.
There was a I believe when they went back for like the second or
even the third rescue party, there was one guy left who very clearly murdered
the rest of the party around him, I mean at him in a circle
of dead people, like missing chunks. But ever, no one faced charges
for murder or cannibalism. They're not even in America. Who's charging them the
Mexican government that they're trying to throw out that there's nothing going on. But
they had a reputational hit for the rest of their lives. You ate,
somebody just move another town over. It's not a good reputation to have.
Hey, they don't have the Sailors Code, the Sailors forgiveness. You remember
that sailors. It's like you were at sea. It's all right, we
get it. What happens at sea, different rules. What happens when you're
dumb ass and get lost in the snow on you when there's no winter rules?
And that is the Donner Party and the James James Reed Party or the
James Reid Party made it well, Reed made it. It's party one.
I'm not sure how much of his family survived, doubtful many. He made
it. That's all I care about. I'm sure he cared about his kids
and shit, he had a perfectly fine life. When you talk about Springfield,
Illinois, He's moved six states over. He's fine, He's gonna just
start a new family. You're right, he had a fine life. Now,
were they going for the gold Rush? No, that that's what I'm
saying. Like they were getting there at the right time. Yeah, yeah,
early, you know. Just and maybe I'll do a follow up episode
on, like James Reid what he ended up doing. Crushing It did crush
Yeah, the wealthiest man in California. Yeah yeah, it was almost named
reed Sylvania. And that is the story the Donner Party, which you guys
learned today. I learned that don't pick up hitchhikers. Don't pick up hitchhikers
ever, don't ever do that, And then I kind of I didn't.
There's something, man, you almost got killed by that sort of than you
know on que for this episode. That would have been pretty ironic. If
he died telling the Donner party, mm hmm, I would eat a little
bit of you in honor of the episode. If he died right here,
I would get the our lighter over there. We just like get a toe.
We get a toe, you know what it's like, take a chunk
of that ass, a little bacon. There's actually a big enough knife here.
We can get a little dan bacon. Yeah, we do that planning
to despair there, Yeah, little pool pork, the medic shows up.
What are you doing? You said it was fine, it's February film.
Yeah, we got have the evidence. You can't legally say it's okay for
us to eat and we eat you. Unfortunately, in this fucking free country
we live in, I learned that you should probably not trust a random dude
who's like, yeah, don't worry, I got this. Don't trust everything
you read, like, trust the people that are in the locale, not
just the map that someone wrote. Yeah, I mean I learned what we
were talking about earlier. Planning for failure is planning for failure. Planning for
success clearly is also planning for failure. Bring more food. Maybe the two
story wagons isn't the movie. It's definitely not the surprise that gusta wind did
knock one of those fuckers out. I'm trying to fathom what it really looked
like, because like in my head, you know, there's this like it's
just a taller, it's a tall wag and like there's a ladder and like
shit, I wouldn't feel comfortable sleeping on that second. It be like a
trailer. Yeah, but like Joe in the back towed by something. It's
like a trailer towed by VW golf, you know, Like it's just I
don't understand. Maybe he need more oxen. Yeah no, I mean you
said they did. I just the fact they planned for no mishaps, zero
zero buffer. We're getting in right on budget. Planning for failure is planning
for failure, so is planning to succeed? Alright, Clearly, who is
today's hitler? We said Hastings. It could be somebody else, though,
I said Hastings. I think everyone who planned it, everyone who planned that
trip and said we don't read. Because he also survived. He I think
he got excellent. He stabbed the guy just to get exiled on purpose.
Brilliant move. Yeah, get away from your family, that family vacation.
You just need to get away. Yeah, now your dad just screams at
a waiter read stabbed the guy. Yeah, yeah, so we're softer,
Yeah, we're soft. A proper con stabbed a guy because he was upset
that he was hurting the oxen. Weird whipping the oxen, whipping them,
probably because he was he believed he was hurting the oxen. Oh, I
think he's hurting. No hurting, Okay, yeah, yeah, but you
know, the oxen probably didn't want to move as much, and the guy
was trying to get them to move. Got the fuck, dude, People
like their animals. He's probably stop whipping. I like these animals, stop
fucking hurting them. At a certain point, I'm eating the oxen. Yeah,
I mean eating the oxen before you eat the people. I imagine the
oxen. I think the hitler is whoever came up with the idea for people
to pull the wagons themselves because he probably didn't do it. Definitely not.
He's like, it's probably a woman, every woman that didn't pull that wagon,
or an old guy and the old too. Oh, actually everyone for
throwing the old guy out. The old old guy come upping Hardcoop. I
guarantee you he was the one that thought of it. He was probably a
hobo, like Rob said, Yeah, where'd we find you? Who likes
this guy? Are you? You're in the spot, man, get in
there, you're yeah, you want to really hot, like at third in
line at worst for meals. Every day he says creepy stuff all the time.
It never pulls the share. Just yeah, he hasn't pulled a wagon
one day, one fucking day. Yeah, he's always just too happy to
eat. Not man, Hey, you want the hottest bath you've ever had,
brother, get in there, get in that cauldron. That's our episode
for today. Again, not going to promote it. Patreon dot com slash
Softcore History. Two additional episodes every week, evergreen content. We got two
years of a back catalog. We have game shows, we have a normal
episode like this, We have voicemails, a lot of more user friendly content.
We have a discord that you get access to so you can kind of
all talk to each other and meet up and whatnot. But again, I'm
not gonna promote this. I'm not gonna promote right why we're gonna do it'll
do that. Oh, we also have a YouTube which I'm not gonna promote
software history on YouTube, you get to see our lovely faces in four K.
I don't know if Rob likes that. What's four k? Four thousand?
Ook good this week? So I like Muloch's this week. Yeah,
Rob's looking hot. Happy birthday Rob? Hmm. That preemptive for next year.
No, it's belated. I'm not gonna do it. I didn't expect
you too, never expected that out of you. Good. Make sure to
leave a review five stars, please and thank you so I can drink again.
We are about fifty away, so need I don't care what you leave,
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Someone left four Yeah, but I think that's a knock at me because
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tuning in. Ladies and gentlemen, We love you if you listen every week.
If you don't, maybe not so much. We like you. If
you're just tuning in it's your first episode. You're chill. You know,
I'm not. I don't really know you, So maybe she keep showing up
and we'll develop a relationship. I already loved all of you, so yeah,
but I guess you can try and win over Dan's affection if that's I
don't like to just throw out love willy nilly, Yeah, we know it's
yeah, you don't even I'm sorry. Why would you throw it out?
You don't feel anything. I just don't even think you like your dog.
I love Chase, but I took him that. It took him like thirteen
years. He is thirteen. Yeah, he just got it. Chase.
Old Chase is just mind his own business, like Hardcoop Chase. Chase is
kind of hm hmmm, like I'm old. He's getting tossed out of a
wagon. I'm old, you know, Like it's just like we get it,
bro, You're old, like everyone gets old, Jase. Come on
anyway, thanks for tuning in for Rob Fox Jake Coleman, I'm damn Regester
and you just got saw served